:00:15. > :00:18.An atros $:/STARTFEED. An atrocity in broad daylight, leaves a man,
:00:18. > :00:24.believed to be a British soldier, dead in London. We have had these
:00:24. > :00:27.sorts of attacks in our country. We never buckle in the face of them.
:00:27. > :00:32.At the heart of this story an apparent statement from a suspect
:00:32. > :00:38.who sounds like one of us, trying to justify killing in Britain to a
:00:38. > :00:43.cause thousands of miles away. Some of you might find the content of
:00:43. > :00:48.these pictures both offensive and upsetting. I apologise that people
:00:48. > :00:51.find this upsetting, in our land this happens every day. Remove your
:00:51. > :00:58.movement, they don't care about you. What can we learn about what
:00:58. > :01:03.happened today in Woolich? Also tonight ...A Kiss for the
:01:03. > :01:06.bride please. We marry for love, so why is marriage or any other
:01:06. > :01:16.romantic arrangement of our lives any business of politicians. It is
:01:16. > :01:26.nothing to do with the Government at all. Why they want to poke their
:01:26. > :01:27.
:01:28. > :01:31.noses in! I don't know! Few news events honestly merit the word
:01:31. > :01:35."shocking", but this afternoon's meat cleaver murder of what is
:01:35. > :01:42.believed to be an off-duty soldier in East London does. The fact that
:01:42. > :01:46.his killer then danced around his body shouting "good is great" and
:01:46. > :01:50.inviting photographs, and add a further dimension. That one ranted
:01:50. > :01:58.in a London street trying to justify the atrocity, aggravates
:01:58. > :02:01.the eaves and the offence given. The Home Secretary tonight has
:02:01. > :02:05.condemned what she said is probably an act of terrorism. The
:02:05. > :02:09.Metropolitan Police commissioner says they have launched a murder
:02:09. > :02:13.inquiry. Bizarrely just yesterday I was speaking to somebody in the
:02:13. > :02:16.world of counter terrorism who told me that when they were looking at
:02:16. > :02:22.the Olympics they had considered the possibility of a stabbing on a
:02:22. > :02:25.train, as he put it, by a militant. He said it was our nightmare
:02:25. > :02:30.scenario we could do nothing possibly to stop a thing like that.
:02:30. > :02:34.Today it would seem that kind of scenario unfolded on the streets of
:02:34. > :02:39.Woolich as you have said, some of the images that came out of it may
:02:39. > :02:43.be disturbing to some people. must fight them as they fight us,
:02:43. > :02:47.an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had
:02:47. > :02:50.to witness this today, in our hand our women have to see the same.
:02:50. > :02:56.This is the man who attempts to justify murder, while apologising
:02:56. > :03:01.that women had to witness it. Shocking footage taken by a
:03:01. > :03:06.passerby on their mobile phone. The attack was at 2.20, a man walking
:03:06. > :03:10.up the street of knocked down by this blue car that had mounted the
:03:10. > :03:16.pavement. The two occupants got out and started to stab and bludgeon
:03:16. > :03:21.the victim with a variety of knives and a meat cleaver. Hours later
:03:21. > :03:26.heavy blood stains on the pavement still marked the site of the
:03:26. > :03:30.murderous assault. Once the victim was dead or dying his body was
:03:30. > :03:36.dragged into the road. I was on the bus coming into Woolich and I saw a
:03:36. > :03:40.man lying motion lesson the floor. And there was a car with this body,
:03:40. > :03:44.so I thought it had been a road traffic collision. I got off the
:03:44. > :03:48.bus and walked around to another viewpoint where the body was
:03:48. > :03:52.covered up. There was a huge police presence, helicopters in the air.
:03:52. > :03:58.The two men, alleged to have attacked him, made no attempt to
:03:58. > :04:03.flee. Instead they started talking to shocked bystanders. Some people
:04:03. > :04:06.tried to help the victim, while just feet away a man with blood
:04:06. > :04:11.stained hands made political statements to those nearby of the
:04:11. > :04:14.Remove your Government, they don't care about you, do you think David
:04:14. > :04:17.Cameron will get caught in the street when we start bussing our
:04:17. > :04:21.gun, do you think our politician also die, no it will be the average
:04:21. > :04:26.guy like you. Local police were on the scene quickly, it is clear they
:04:26. > :04:29.had to wait for armed officers to arrive, prolonging the bloody
:04:29. > :04:34.theatre as the perpetrators harangued local people. Witnesses
:04:34. > :04:38.suggest that once the armed police were there, the attackers rushed
:04:38. > :04:42.them. Two men, who we believed from earlier reports to be carrying
:04:42. > :04:46.weapons were shot by police. They have both been taken to separate
:04:46. > :04:51.London hospitals and are receiving treatment for their injuries.
:04:51. > :04:56.pictures show the attackers, who, moments earlier, had been shouting
:04:56. > :05:00.Islamist slogans, lying wounded in the street. Get back, get back!
:05:00. > :05:03.Move back! Tonight there were fears in community about tensions.
:05:03. > :05:07.Nothing has ever happened like this in Woolich before. I think there
:05:07. > :05:12.are lots of different communities that live in Woolich. I think some
:05:12. > :05:17.people will use this as a reason to attack these, this community that
:05:17. > :05:21.has done this to this man. Even as the assaliants were taken to
:05:21. > :05:26.hospital, the cabinet, emergency committee, COBRA was being summoned
:05:26. > :05:28.under the chairmanship of Theresa May, where it heard reports from
:05:28. > :05:34.the police and Security Service. The Prime Minister, meanwhile, who
:05:34. > :05:38.was on the continent for talks, made this statement in Paris.
:05:38. > :05:42.Tonight our thoughts should be with the victim, with their family, with
:05:42. > :05:47.their friends. People across Britain, people in every community,
:05:47. > :05:50.I believe, will utterly condemn this attack. We have had these
:05:50. > :05:55.sorts of attacks before in our country, and we never buckle in the
:05:55. > :05:59.face of them. The scene in Woolich is the subject now of intense
:05:59. > :06:04.investigation. But there will be other lines of inquiry being
:06:04. > :06:10.pursued tonight. Did the attackers act alone? And had they, at some
:06:10. > :06:13.point, been under official surveillance? Our correspondent
:06:13. > :06:18.Richard Watson has for many years reported on terrorism and extremism
:06:18. > :06:21.in the UK. He's here now. Do you know anything about this suspect?
:06:21. > :06:24.Well none of this is confirmed at this stage. But about an hour-and-
:06:24. > :06:30.a-half ago I received a very interesting phone call from a
:06:30. > :06:33.source who knows the British Jihadi scene very well. This source said
:06:33. > :06:40.that one of the attackers was Nigerian in origin, and has been
:06:40. > :06:45.living in the UK for many year. He was radicalised by the Islamist
:06:45. > :06:50.group Alma haj roon in 2003. Now most controversially he suggested
:06:50. > :06:56.to me that just last year this young man was stopped or arrested,
:06:56. > :06:59.we don't know which at the moment, on his way to join Al-Shabab in
:06:59. > :07:02.Somalia. We can't confirm that at the moment, but that is what I have
:07:02. > :07:07.been told tonight. If that was true he would be obviously known to the
:07:07. > :07:11.police? That is the suggestion, yes. That is remaining unconfirmed. If
:07:11. > :07:19.he is known to the police, of course, we open up the territory of
:07:19. > :07:24.what did they know about Mohammed Sadique Khan back in 2005, it opens
:07:24. > :07:31.up this territory. This attack, shocking, horrific, very different
:07:31. > :07:41.in character to something like the 7/7 attack? Very different. It is
:07:41. > :07:43.
:07:43. > :07:47.hard to say with certainty. If you look at 7/7, tribal areas and
:07:47. > :07:50.Mohammed Khan went out there for training. This appears to be a much
:07:50. > :07:54.more discreet attack from lone wolves, who seem to have taken it
:07:54. > :07:59.upon themselves to carry out this attack radicalised, possibly, by
:07:59. > :08:04.the Internet. We don't know. Let's speak to the former Home Secretary
:08:04. > :08:11.Lord Reid, and Lord Carlyle, the independent reviewer of anti-
:08:11. > :08:19.terrorism legislation from 2001- 2011, and Nawaz, a former member of
:08:19. > :08:22.an Islamist organisation, who later founded a Quilliam Foundation, a
:08:23. > :08:26.counter extremist think-tank. This was shocking but entirely
:08:26. > :08:30.unexpected this sort of attack? know we are under a "substantial"
:08:30. > :08:33.threat, we know that. We know that there have been a huge number of
:08:33. > :08:38.plots in the fast, foiled successfully by the security forces
:08:38. > :08:43.by and large. And we also know there has been a change from just
:08:43. > :08:48.being centrally determined and controlled attacks throughout the
:08:48. > :08:51.world, to more of what Richard Wilson called Lone Wolf attacks. It
:08:51. > :08:54.makes it much more difficult for the Security Services. They tend to
:08:55. > :08:57.require less time and planning. They are more ad hoc, more
:08:57. > :09:01.opportunist, there is less communication data going back
:09:01. > :09:08.across the world. There is less contact. And therefore, they are
:09:08. > :09:13.more difficult to counter in a way. The sense that Mumbai in a sense
:09:13. > :09:18.was that sort of attack. If this is one of these Lone Wolf attacks then
:09:19. > :09:22.it is pretty difficult to counter. Although Mumbai actually did, if I
:09:22. > :09:28.recall correctly, there was evidence of control from Pakistan?
:09:28. > :09:37.There was. The big plot that, thankfully we foiled here in 2006,
:09:37. > :09:41.which was the liquid bomb plot to bring down seven airliners with
:09:41. > :09:46.2,500 potential deaths, there was certainly contact internationally.
:09:46. > :09:50.That makes it easier to foil than a spontaneous attack without those
:09:50. > :09:53.communication links. Your reaction? My reaction is first of all this is
:09:54. > :09:57.a tragic event and our hearts must go out to the family of the man who
:09:57. > :10:01.was killed. Secondly, I think this is the kind of attack which,
:10:01. > :10:07.because of Mumbai, we have been predicting for quite a time in this
:10:07. > :10:12.country. The control authorities, the police and Security Service,
:10:12. > :10:16.have been working very hard to prevent it. I think we have to
:10:16. > :10:19.learn proportionate lesson from what has occur, we mustn't rush to
:10:19. > :10:24.judgment. We must ensure the police and the Security Service have for
:10:24. > :10:29.the future the tools they need, which will enable them to prevent
:10:29. > :10:32.it kind of attack taking place. I hope this will give the Government
:10:32. > :10:36.pause for thought about their abandonment, for example, of the
:10:36. > :10:41.communications data bill, and possibly pause for thought about
:10:41. > :10:44.converting control orders into what are now called TPIMs, with a
:10:44. > :10:47.diluted set of powers. You are not suggesting either of those things
:10:47. > :10:51.had anything to do with today's attack? I'm not suggesting that,
:10:51. > :10:57.but I'm suggesting that the powers that existed in the past make it
:10:57. > :11:01.more likely that other attacks can be prevented in the future. Lone
:11:01. > :11:05.wolves, even though they are always inevitably connected at least with
:11:05. > :11:13.internet training, are very difficult to catch. So we must give
:11:13. > :11:16.the authorities proportionate tools to catch them. Maajid Nawaz, what
:11:16. > :11:22.really strikes you about this attack today? What strikes me about
:11:22. > :11:25.this attack is in fact the way in which, so much of it was theatre.
:11:25. > :11:28.So much was them standing around after speaking to members of the
:11:28. > :11:33.public. To not only justify their actions but speaking to the cameras
:11:33. > :11:36.with a view to knowing the police were on their way. Almost in a
:11:36. > :11:38.fatalistic sense wanting to be caught so they could have a form of
:11:38. > :11:43.a show trial. Orderly you would expect that something is thinking
:11:43. > :11:46.in a strategic way would retreat or come back to attack again, as the
:11:46. > :11:50.Boston bombers attempted to do. These individual wanted it to be
:11:50. > :11:53.about show. What I would say here, because we have heard reports of
:11:53. > :12:00.members of certain far right movements seeking to move to the
:12:00. > :12:04.area, and seeking vengence, first thing, a lot has changed since 7/7.
:12:04. > :12:08.One of the things that has changed is certain organisations we were
:12:08. > :12:13.rather dissatisfied in the past, in the way that they almost didn't
:12:13. > :12:16.condemn terrorist attacks, but instead started to focus in foreign
:12:16. > :12:22.policy have in this instance come forward and condemned the terrorism
:12:22. > :12:25.with no ifs and buts. The scene has changed among Muslim community
:12:25. > :12:31.groups, that is very important. is striking when you hear this guy
:12:31. > :12:34.speak, a guy speaking in a London accent about things happening in
:12:34. > :12:39."our" country, I don't know which country he's talking about? This is
:12:39. > :12:44.very weird? This is the role we keep talking about that ideology
:12:44. > :12:48.plays. Where we have failed abysmaly in this country, in
:12:48. > :12:52.popularising counter narratives to this ideology that completely
:12:52. > :12:58.disconnects people, someone clearly speaking in London accent, and
:12:58. > :13:01.clearly killing one of his own citizens, and for a country he has
:13:01. > :13:07.never visited, and he has more affinity to people in another
:13:07. > :13:16.country than his own citizens. We need to popularising a counter
:13:16. > :13:20.narrative, and stopping this narrative of making Islam unpopular
:13:20. > :13:23.asism. I think the responsibility falls on Government to try to help
:13:23. > :13:28.create the counter narrative. The Internet has become a very powerful
:13:28. > :13:31.tool. One can learn how to make a bomb, unfor the that thely, on the
:13:31. > :13:37.Internet, one -- unfortunately on the Internet, one can listen to
:13:37. > :13:41.sermons on the interin the. We are not very good as a nation at
:13:41. > :13:46.creating a counter narrative that the goodies maybe win sometimes.
:13:46. > :13:51.What would that be like? There is a unit in Government, John Reid will
:13:51. > :13:54.know about it, that is designated to examine the Internet and try to
:13:54. > :13:58.help produce a counter narrative. It is the sort of thing that makes
:13:59. > :14:03.young men who may want to be radicalised as keen to look at a
:14:03. > :14:07.couldn'try view and counter picture as the terrorist narrative. First
:14:07. > :14:12.of all, at heart this is an ideolgical battle, this is not
:14:12. > :14:16.about Islam, it is about Islamism, the "ism" is the giveaway. It is
:14:16. > :14:25.the political imposition of people's will, through violence,
:14:25. > :14:28.through the use of a corruption of Islam. They have a narrative the
:14:28. > :14:33.basically Al-Qaeda narrative that blames the west for everything, and
:14:33. > :14:36.sees it as an anti-Muslim movement. We have not had an adequate
:14:36. > :14:39.narrative that explains the virtues of the society and the values on
:14:39. > :14:42.which they are based. Arising out of that narrative has to be action.
:14:42. > :14:46.This is the point I would make about tonight's news that others
:14:46. > :14:53.are arranging counter demonstrations. The purpose of this
:14:53. > :14:57.action is not just to destroy life today, it is not even just to
:14:57. > :15:01.propagandaise, it is to terrorise and disrupt the normal flow of life
:15:01. > :15:06.in this country. Those who seek to attack other communities as a
:15:06. > :15:11.result of this will be carrying out precisely the sort of division and
:15:11. > :15:14.disruption of British way of life, away from our communal
:15:14. > :15:19.collecttivity that the terrorists seek to enhance in the first place.
:15:19. > :15:23.So those who might think that they are, you know, attacking the
:15:23. > :15:26.terrorists by marching through a Muslim community or whatever, are
:15:26. > :15:30.actually following the path of the strategy the terrorists would like
:15:30. > :15:34.to see. I think it is very important we should hear senior
:15:34. > :15:37.Muslim leaders decribing the kind of opinions that were expressed on
:15:37. > :15:41.that clip as a heresy, and that it does not represent Muslim views in
:15:41. > :15:45.this country. Which is right isn't it? It doesn't represent anybody,
:15:45. > :15:49.they are a bizarre minority, but we must have this loadership?
:15:49. > :15:52.One of my colleagues was speaking to somebody earlier who said he had
:15:52. > :15:57.been speaking to some young Muslims this evening who were pleased at
:15:57. > :16:04.what had happened? We are finding any young Muslim who is angry the
:16:04. > :16:08.default, political expression that is currently out this there is --
:16:08. > :16:11.there is this perversion of Islam, the challenge we have is to replace
:16:11. > :16:15.that default. When you ask what the counter narrative looks like, there
:16:15. > :16:19.are ideas, leaders and symbols, if I ask you to think about the ideas,
:16:19. > :16:23.the narratives and leaders and symbols for Al-Qaeda-based
:16:23. > :16:28.extremism you can ease low think of them. Think of the equivalent in
:16:28. > :16:31.the Middle East for democratic active, who are the leaders, ideas
:16:31. > :16:35.and symbols in the Middle East you are hard pressed to see them.
:16:35. > :16:41.low because there is very little democracy there? And partly because
:16:41. > :16:46.the civil society activism involved is stifled. People are not able to
:16:46. > :16:51.express as much as they should be. We need to do more in that regard.
:16:51. > :16:54.Increased drone strike, targeted assassinations, more Guantanamos,
:16:54. > :16:58.the military option isn't the bee all and end you will solution. It
:16:58. > :17:04.is a short-term stopgap. We need to start focusing on the ideas debate
:17:04. > :17:07.and reclaiming and rebranding democratic culture among young
:17:07. > :17:11.disenfranchised Muslims. Let as turn quickly to what's likely to be
:17:11. > :17:18.happening now. You have sat in Theresa May's chair? Too often I
:17:18. > :17:21.fear. There was a meeting of COBRA, the cabinet committee today. That
:17:21. > :17:24.was going on for some time, at the end of which it was determined it
:17:25. > :17:30.was a form of terrorist attack. We understand that. What happens next?
:17:30. > :17:34.Well the first thing that happens is to establish the facts. The Home
:17:34. > :17:38.Secretary will be surrounded by her specialists, because the Home
:17:38. > :17:41.Secretary does not run these operations in a democracy. They are
:17:41. > :17:45.run by the police and Intelligence Service and so on. But she is
:17:45. > :17:48.accountable to the public and parliament. She has to ascertain
:17:48. > :17:52.the facts. Secondly she will be asking the questions as to whether
:17:52. > :17:56.anything else needs to be done, are there connections, are there other
:17:56. > :17:59.suspects, is there another threat from a group linked to this.
:17:59. > :18:04.Thirdly, about the Ministry of Defence, I'm sure Philip Hammond
:18:04. > :18:09.was there. If it was a soldier who was tragically murdered today, our
:18:09. > :18:12.thoughts would be with his family and, if it was, what is the
:18:12. > :18:17.security like at specific areas targeted for soldiers and so on.
:18:17. > :18:22.And then there is a question about whether you need to raise the
:18:22. > :18:25.national threat level from "substantial "up to perhaps as high
:18:25. > :18:28.as "critical". I don't think that is likely but that will be
:18:28. > :18:32.considered. If that is then raised as a result of that there is all
:18:32. > :18:38.sorts of operational ratchetting up of defence measures. All of that
:18:38. > :18:41.will be done in the first instance. Then they will turn their mind to
:18:41. > :18:45.some of the wider questions, hopefully, which is not only the
:18:45. > :18:50.investigations that are being carried out, but the questions like
:18:50. > :18:55.the nature of radicalisation of British people, the narrative that
:18:55. > :19:01.we talked about, you know. That is an on going process. How alarming
:19:01. > :19:08.are the unknowns? They are always alarming, I chaired this meeting,
:19:08. > :19:18.COBRA meeting, not only through terrorism, but through Litvenenko,
:19:18. > :19:21.and so on. There are always, to use one of the words of an American
:19:21. > :19:26.secretary, the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns. In some of
:19:26. > :19:30.the cases I was involved in we thought we had a pretty good grasp
:19:30. > :19:34.for a while of the number and nature of the people involved, only
:19:34. > :19:38.to discover late in the day there weren't six from this area there
:19:38. > :19:41.was as many as 20 from another area. That is where some of the measures
:19:41. > :19:45.which the Government has refused to implement, like data communications
:19:45. > :19:50.that were mentioned earlier, is absolutely essential for effective
:19:50. > :19:55.fighting of terrorism. I mean we, you will never find out whether you
:19:55. > :20:00.are right on this one until there is some huge tragedy that might
:20:00. > :20:04.have been averted if they had updated the communications
:20:04. > :20:08.appraisals a that can be carried out from GCHQ. This is a very
:20:08. > :20:11.important point. We must have proportionate laws, but there must
:20:11. > :20:15.be laws that are sufficient to meet need. When they see an example,
:20:15. > :20:20.this may be a small example of something much bigger that could
:20:20. > :20:24.happen, we must ensure the laws are fit for purpose. But we don't know
:20:24. > :20:27.whether that sort of interception of communications, monitoring of
:20:27. > :20:30.communications would have made any difference at all? But we do know
:20:30. > :20:37.it is extremely effective in catching organised criminals,
:20:37. > :20:41.murders and others, we know it is works, it is working in court up
:20:41. > :20:46.and down the country. Six or seven years ago had we not had that
:20:46. > :20:50.method of connecting people through their "communications", 2,500
:20:50. > :20:55.people would probably have been blown out of the sky over the UK.
:20:55. > :21:00.It was a vital component. But now people have moved on from mobile
:21:00. > :21:03.phones to internet, e-mail, text and Skype, we don't have the means
:21:03. > :21:08.of doing what we did six years ago. Thank you all very much.
:21:08. > :21:13.We will return to this story a little later in the programme.
:21:13. > :21:18.Now from hate to love. In all the noise about gay marriage these past
:21:18. > :21:21.few days, the bigger phenomenon, hell sexual marriage has been
:21:21. > :21:24.rather overlooked. It is, we are told, the basic building block of
:21:24. > :21:27.the state. Vital for the secure upbringing of children, and an
:21:27. > :21:32.institution in trouble, which almost all political parties claim
:21:32. > :21:36.to be keen to support. Should it be privileged over other types of
:21:36. > :21:43.family life? Before we talk it over we have this report and we begin
:21:43. > :21:47.with the question every couple get asked, "how did you two meet"?
:21:47. > :21:52.The moment you met? Moment, that is a bit hard to say, I walked across
:21:52. > :22:02.the floor and asked my wife for a dance. Asked me for a dance, and I
:22:02. > :22:06.said "I don't think so", no I didn't, I did say I would! I I had
:22:06. > :22:11.to warn her about her small dresses in the shop I used to run. He said
:22:11. > :22:14.I was showing too much leg and I would give the customers a heart
:22:14. > :22:21.attack! The tendency in those days was to grab the first female that
:22:21. > :22:27.you could. I gave her a kiss on New Year's Eve. So I know exactly to
:22:27. > :22:37.the second when that happened. we just kissed and that was it. We
:22:37. > :22:40.
:22:40. > :22:45.just...Within A month I knew this was going to be the one.
:22:45. > :22:49.# I remember how I thrilled at the sight of you
:22:49. > :22:53.If you want to understand married life, you need to come to East
:22:53. > :23:02.Dorset. Two thirds of adults here are married. The highest proportion
:23:02. > :23:08.in all of England and Wales. Are you nervous? Not at the moment, I'm
:23:08. > :23:12.OK at the moment. Kayleigh Wallis is surprisingly calm. Maybe that's
:23:12. > :23:20.because, like many brides, she already lives with the groom, and
:23:20. > :23:26.they have had a baby together. Do you think you now feel something
:23:26. > :23:30.has fundamentally changed? Yes. What is that? It feels like you
:23:30. > :23:34.have found the missing piece. Connected in a way. Another way of
:23:34. > :23:37.connecting and feeling closer. bonds you together more. You are
:23:37. > :23:46.standing up in front of all your friend and family to say I'm
:23:46. > :23:51.committed to this relationship. kiss for the bride, please.
:23:52. > :23:57.Marriage has been in decline for decades. Roughly half the number of
:23:57. > :24:04.people get married today compared to 1970. 42% of marriages end in
:24:04. > :24:09.divorce. But the number of people cohabiting has increased
:24:09. > :24:13.dramatically since 1979. Today one in six people cohabit. In terms of
:24:13. > :24:18.break-ups involving children, fewer than one in ten married couples
:24:18. > :24:27.will split up by their first child's fifth birthday. For
:24:27. > :24:34.cohabiting couple it is one in three. Do you think marriage is
:24:34. > :24:38.important for society? Yes. Yes I do. For people like Mark and
:24:38. > :24:43.Kayleigh and these two here, definitely to be together, and it
:24:43. > :24:47.is good to be married. For your children, it is nice to have your
:24:47. > :24:52.mum and dad together. Unlike me I grew up with just a mother. That is
:24:52. > :24:57.probably why I wouldn't get married. But not everyone is convinced that
:24:57. > :25:01.marriage benefits children. Without the pressure of marriage some
:25:01. > :25:04.relationships work better. sound like you are talking from
:25:04. > :25:09.experience? I was married for seven years. My husband left me a year
:25:09. > :25:15.ago. We tried to stick it out for the children but it wasn't fair on
:25:15. > :25:18.them. The UK has won of the highest rates of family breakdown in the
:25:18. > :25:25.western world. Children in Britain are less likely to live with both
:25:25. > :25:35.parents than children in Germany, France, and the US. Fewer than 70%
:25:35. > :25:36.
:25:36. > :25:40.live with their mother and father. # I remember how I thrilled at the
:25:40. > :25:45.sight of you # I remember
:25:45. > :25:51.At this bowls club, more than 600 years worth of marriage is playing
:25:51. > :25:55.out on the green. Almost all of the couples playing
:25:56. > :26:00.have been married for more than 40 years. So how have they managed to
:26:00. > :26:04.stay together for so long? Is there something special about the
:26:04. > :26:08.institution of marriage that's kept them united. Or is it more about
:26:08. > :26:13.them as people, their characteristics that we need to
:26:13. > :26:16.understand? On that question experts don't agree.
:26:16. > :26:22.Getting married is a different level all together. You have a very
:26:23. > :26:26.public commitment in front of family, friends, the state, the
:26:26. > :26:29.community. It is clear and it is much harder to get married and it
:26:29. > :26:34.is much harder to get out of being married. There is a very public
:26:34. > :26:37.commitment there. Couples that get matter yod have different
:26:37. > :26:40.characteristics -- married have different characteristics to those
:26:40. > :26:44.who cohabit. We can observe them easily. The couples who choose to
:26:44. > :26:47.get matter yod have higher levels of education and higher
:26:47. > :26:50.professional occupations, they are more likely to own their own home
:26:50. > :26:54.and have higher incomes. Lots of these factors will contribute to
:26:54. > :26:58.whether they separate or not in the long-term. Marriage amongst high
:26:58. > :27:04.income groups is on the rise, 66% of people in the top social class,
:27:04. > :27:13.such Assenor managers, are married. Whilst only 44 -- such as senior
:27:13. > :27:16.managers are married, why only 44% in the other groups, such as manual
:27:16. > :27:21.worker. Norman and Lorna have been married for 55 years, they think
:27:21. > :27:27.young couples could do with help from the Government. Times are not
:27:27. > :27:33.easy at the moment. If they are living in a flat you still have to
:27:33. > :27:37.buy furniture, anything to help people get started. That's it. I
:27:37. > :27:41.know these days people start off when they get married and want
:27:41. > :27:46.everything. We started, we got married we had a bed a kitchen
:27:46. > :27:56.table and two chairs. When we had visitors they sat on boxes and
:27:56. > :27:58.
:27:58. > :28:05.things because we couldn't afford it. You brush up nice? You can see
:28:05. > :28:09.why I fell for him. Let as face it, she was a smasher. Len and Diana
:28:09. > :28:13.have been married for 62 years. Do you think that it is any business
:28:13. > :28:18.of the Government whether people are married or not? No. No business
:28:18. > :28:24.at all. Definitely not. No. It is a personal thing between a couple. It
:28:24. > :28:34.is nothing to do with the Government at all. Why they want to
:28:34. > :28:34.
:28:34. > :28:38.poke their noses in! Knowss -- noses! I really don't know.
:28:38. > :28:45.Arguments may rage about what this certificate means. But perhaps it
:28:45. > :28:52.is laughter that makes a marriage worth the paper it is written on.
:28:52. > :28:56.My wife had a hip operation, right. Oh! And when she came home they had
:28:56. > :28:59.given her mechanical fingers to put her knickers on. I said that's
:28:59. > :29:03.bloody stupid what are you doing that for, I will put your knickers
:29:03. > :29:13.up, I got them half way up and I thought bloody hell I must be old
:29:13. > :29:15.
:29:15. > :29:22.because I was trying to get these off years ago! Don't put that on
:29:22. > :29:27.television for good's sake! Well now here to discuss the ins and
:29:27. > :29:32.outs of marriage are Harry Benson from The Marriage Foundation, a
:29:32. > :29:40.group that campaigns in favour of marriage. Claire Paye a campaigner
:29:41. > :29:47.for Mothers at Home Matter. Natlie Bennett from the left-leaning think
:29:47. > :29:51.tank. And Fiona Millar, who lives in what used to be called "sin".
:29:51. > :29:53.What business, can you answer that question that couple were perplexed
:29:53. > :29:57.by, what business is it of the Government whether people are
:29:57. > :30:00.married or not? It is a great question. You would think if all
:30:00. > :30:04.relationships were the same it wouldn't make any difference. But
:30:04. > :30:11.the Government is deeply involved in family life already. If I took
:30:11. > :30:18.you into a secondary school and I introduced you to 100 teenagers
:30:18. > :30:21.about to start their GCSE exam, of that 100 teenagers 45 are not
:30:21. > :30:26.living with both their natural parents. That is where the cost of
:30:26. > :30:29.family breakdown has spiralled out of control. 45% of kids are now
:30:29. > :30:33.living without their natural parents, and the state spends an
:30:33. > :30:39.absolute fortune, rightly, protecting and supporting lone
:30:39. > :30:43.parent families. Fiona Millar? respond to that? I think if you are
:30:43. > :30:46.talking about the reasons children don't achieve. They are complicate.
:30:46. > :30:49.We know there is a correlation between married couples and
:30:49. > :30:52.outcomes for children. We don't know there is a causal link. There
:30:52. > :30:56.are a lot of other reasons why children don't achieve. The state
:30:56. > :30:59.has a business looking into people's, having policy for
:30:59. > :31:05.people's personal lives, and families lives. It should be to
:31:05. > :31:09.support families in whatever form they come. Not simply families in a
:31:09. > :31:14.married couple. So don't make a big deal of marriage? You are talking
:31:14. > :31:18.about stability and commitment for children. There can be even with
:31:18. > :31:21.parents who separate. Why wouldn't you just penalise people who get
:31:21. > :31:24.divorced then. The Government could fine people for getting divorced?
:31:24. > :31:28.Don't you think people are penalised enough when they get
:31:28. > :31:36.divorced. Let's look at what works, of the 55 kids I have introduced
:31:36. > :31:46.you to in year nine b to start their GCSEs, of those 55 kids whose
:31:46. > :31:50.parents are still intact, 51 out of 55 are married. It is the model who
:31:50. > :31:54.work, gorgeous fe Fiona who has made it work is an exception.
:31:54. > :31:58.don't think I am an exception, there are lots of successful family
:31:58. > :32:01.models that don't involve marriage. It is about the quality of
:32:01. > :32:04.relationship rather than status. We know children do well in loving
:32:04. > :32:08.warm environments, that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be
:32:08. > :32:12.married environments. It means that you need to support the quality of
:32:12. > :32:16.that relationship and the stability in that household. Kid will do much
:32:16. > :32:20.better in a household where it is loving and warm rather than in a
:32:20. > :32:23.married household where the parents are in conflict and arguing all the
:32:23. > :32:26.time. What is it specifically about marriage that makes it a better
:32:26. > :32:29.environment to bring up children in? It is the commitment and
:32:29. > :32:33.stability. I think Harry has mentioned the statistics behind it.
:32:33. > :32:36.That you just are more likely to separate if you are cohabiting than
:32:36. > :32:39.if you are married. To get married, at some point you have discussed
:32:39. > :32:43.your long-term future, you have said I want to marry you, you
:32:43. > :32:47.haven't just ended up living together and then carrying on
:32:47. > :32:52.because nothing else has happened in the meantime. You have discussed
:32:52. > :32:56.it, you have committed. And you are married. Sorry, but I do think, to
:32:56. > :33:00.compare people who are cohabiting to those who are married is not a
:33:00. > :33:03.like-for-like comparison, in a way. Most people cohabit before they
:33:03. > :33:09.choose to get married, if that is what they choose to decide. It is
:33:09. > :33:13.not really comparing like-for-like, it is kind of unfair to say that
:33:13. > :33:17.those cohabiting have a different range, the data is more complicated
:33:17. > :33:21.than that. Tell me to back off if I'm prying here, why did you make
:33:21. > :33:26.the different decision, which was the decision not to get married?
:33:26. > :33:30.Well I have always felt that marriage was a bit of a patriarchal
:33:30. > :33:34.institution, I'm not religious, the ceremony doesn't appeal to me at
:33:34. > :33:37.all. Since your researcher phoned me up to talk about this programme,
:33:37. > :33:41.I thought about the reasons more than 33 years. I could never think
:33:41. > :33:43.of a good reason to do it. It was not a reason to do it but not to do
:33:43. > :33:48.it. We have a commitment to each other, we have three children, we
:33:48. > :33:51.had our ups and downs, well chronicled in his diaries, I'm sure
:33:51. > :33:56.everyone knows about them, we stuck together for 33 years and there is
:33:56. > :33:59.a form of commitment and stability. Frankly I hear it offensive to hear
:33:59. > :34:04.from politicians that our form of family life is any less valid than
:34:04. > :34:07.those with a ring on the finger. Perhaps they are saying it is
:34:07. > :34:11.slightly more vulnerable? If the commitment is there it doesn't
:34:11. > :34:14.matter if you are cohabiting or married. You have to look at the
:34:14. > :34:18.underlying reasons why people stick together. I'm not sure that
:34:18. > :34:21.marriage ceremonies are the reason. There is a correlation, but is that
:34:21. > :34:26.the cause. You are more or less assuming, are you not, that
:34:26. > :34:29.children are better brought up by two parents than one? I'm not. It
:34:29. > :34:34.is the choice we have made and a lot of people do make of it. I can
:34:34. > :34:37.think of many successful families that don't have two parents and the
:34:37. > :34:40.children achieve extremely well. You have to be very careful about
:34:40. > :34:44.making judgments about the right type of family model and the wrong
:34:44. > :34:47.type of family model. These judgments are made all the time. If
:34:47. > :34:52.we were to take your argument seriously, what mechanism should be
:34:52. > :34:56.imposed to try to get people to get married and stay married? I think
:34:56. > :35:00.you can't get away from this basic fact that 51 out of 55 kids in this
:35:00. > :35:03.case are living in intact married families. You have said that, come
:35:03. > :35:07.on tell us how you think the Government could get people to get
:35:07. > :35:14.married and stay married? OK, the first thing is that the current
:35:14. > :35:18.Government policy actually penalises married couples, how it
:35:18. > :35:21.does that is at the low end, if you are receiving tax credits if
:35:21. > :35:25.somebody moves in with you their income comes into our household and
:35:25. > :35:29.you lose your tax credits, that is called the couple penalty. It is
:35:29. > :35:33.well known. I spoke to a mate of mine this report, happily married,
:35:34. > :35:37.he said he already worked out if he and his wife split up they would be
:35:37. > :35:40.so much better off than if they were living together. That is
:35:40. > :35:45.utterly mad. A marriage tax break would be one of the ways of
:35:45. > :35:49.righting that wrong. How much money do you think it would take to
:35:49. > :35:52.persuade someone to get married and stay married? I don't think it is
:35:52. > :35:57.the amount of money to persuade people to get married. You are the
:35:57. > :36:00.people child benefit, it doesn't cause people to have children, we
:36:00. > :36:03.pay pensions and it doesn't cause people to get old. Giving a
:36:03. > :36:07.marriage tax break would be a good thing because it is a good thing,
:36:07. > :36:13.because most people who actually make their relationships work are
:36:13. > :36:17.married. And the state would then be recognising that. Is there any
:36:17. > :36:21.way of measuring a feings inducement to get this what is
:36:21. > :36:25.perceived to be a good thing in the Government's mind to work? I find
:36:25. > :36:28.it very hard to believe and haven't seen any evidence to support that
:36:29. > :36:33.people would get married or stay married because of a marriage tax
:36:33. > :36:37.break. What we are seeing in Relate, the charity are seeing an increase
:36:37. > :36:42.with people under financial pressure coming to them. I think it
:36:42. > :36:45.is about supporting families at times of financial pressure.
:36:45. > :36:48.Affordable childcare, shared parental leave. Those kinds of
:36:48. > :36:52.policies I think would have a far greater impact than something like
:36:52. > :36:55.a marriage tax break. David Cameron is talking about something between
:36:55. > :37:02.�150, would you get married for that? Not because David Cameron
:37:02. > :37:05.told me to. That is for sure. �50 probably not. But at my time of
:37:05. > :37:09.life, coming through the other end, our children are grown up now,
:37:09. > :37:13.there is a great advantage in being married because of the situation
:37:13. > :37:18.with inheritance tax. I think we should be equalising the situation
:37:18. > :37:21.so cohabiting hetrosexual couples can have civil partnerships as well.
:37:21. > :37:25.I'm penalised now. Do you think that couples should stay together
:37:25. > :37:28.for the sake of the children, because it is a better environment?
:37:28. > :37:31.I think the ideal situation is where you have a couple who are
:37:31. > :37:35.happily married, who love each other, where they can look after
:37:35. > :37:40.their children the way they want to, so if the mother or father wants to
:37:40. > :37:44.stay at home full-time they can. If one of them wants to work they can.
:37:44. > :37:47.And that is a fantastic environment to bring children up in it is
:37:47. > :37:51.stable and loving. It might exist, but most of us have to make
:37:51. > :37:58.compromises in life? You can look at the ideal and say how close can
:37:58. > :38:05.we get to that. It doesn't deny the fact it is an ideal, if you can
:38:05. > :38:07.have a couple happily married, committed to the children, who
:38:07. > :38:11.remain committed to the children throughout their lives. Do you
:38:11. > :38:17.think a single parent is less capable of doing such a good job?
:38:17. > :38:23.Not at all. Why worry about it? is great if you can have a father
:38:23. > :38:27.and a mother. So you assert, where is the evidence? Because when you
:38:27. > :38:30.have parents living together you develop attachments, you develop
:38:30. > :38:34.bonding with the children. I have to say sometimes my husband works
:38:34. > :38:37.away, it is much easier when he's around that the children get a
:38:37. > :38:41.balanced approach to being brought up. They have the male version and
:38:41. > :38:45.the female version. And that works really well. It is very hard when
:38:45. > :38:48.I'm on my own. What is the evidence on this? Families are far more
:38:48. > :38:51.diverse, I don't think that's, families thrive in different
:38:51. > :38:54.environment, I think when people are able to make choices that work
:38:54. > :38:59.for them, that is when kids do really well. That is when you get a
:38:59. > :39:03.loving and supporting home that children and couples and people on
:39:03. > :39:12.their own who make that decision thrive on. At the moment a lot of
:39:12. > :39:17.families can't make the choices they want. If you are a single
:39:17. > :39:22.parent family you are more penalised in the taxies it, single
:39:22. > :39:27.income families are penalised in the tax system, rather than a
:39:27. > :39:30.double income family, you pay �2,500 more than a dual income
:39:30. > :39:35.family. A lot of people can't afford to stay at home and look
:39:35. > :39:39.after the children or work part- time. A lot of people do have to
:39:39. > :39:43.work. In some cohabiting couples people stay at home and look after
:39:43. > :39:46.the children. There aren't hard and fast rules. If parents separate I
:39:46. > :39:50.think it is partly the role of the state to help support that family
:39:50. > :39:54.to maintain good relationships with both parents. What we are saying is
:39:54. > :39:57.it is important for children to have a relationship with both
:39:57. > :40:01.parents if they can in both situation. Sometimes it is not
:40:01. > :40:05.right for people to stay together. When you look at the growth in
:40:05. > :40:10.divorce and cohabiting couples and children born out of wedlock. The
:40:10. > :40:14.fact there is no longer any stigma against either divorcees or bass
:40:15. > :40:19.standards, there is no stiing -- bastards, there is no stigma
:40:19. > :40:24.because children see all sorts of models in school. Is it a bad or
:40:25. > :40:29.good thing? I want to pick you up on this idea of being more divorce.
:40:29. > :40:34.There isn't. There is a lot more than in 1950? Compared to 1950, but
:40:34. > :40:38.compared to 1980 it is not true. We had a one million lone parent
:40:38. > :40:42.families in 1980 there are two million today. We have less divorce
:40:42. > :40:46.than in 1980. You have to explain if it is all the background factors
:40:46. > :40:50.that are supposedly the reason why families are spliting up, you have
:40:50. > :40:54.to explain why family breakdown has doubled, it is the trend away from
:40:54. > :40:58.marriage, that is the reason we have our 45 out of 100-kids who are
:40:58. > :41:03.living without both natural parents. One of the fascinating thing is the
:41:03. > :41:06.success of marriage, if you think there isn't any stigma attached to
:41:06. > :41:10.be unmarried, there aren't the economic reasons for women to have
:41:10. > :41:14.to get married and so many people are still getting married, you
:41:14. > :41:17.should be celebrating the fact it is still so popular. It is the
:41:17. > :41:21.grain of human behaviour. Don't judge those who don't make the
:41:21. > :41:24.decision. I'm not. That is the way the arguments are presented.
:41:24. > :41:28.Government policy should go with the grain of human behaviour, we
:41:28. > :41:32.want to stay together as couples. Few people set out wanting to be
:41:32. > :41:36.lone parents, we should support lone parents and marriage as well.
:41:36. > :41:40.It is stigmatising for lone parents to be told the married couple model
:41:40. > :41:44.is the best one. If you hear it that way. I hear it that way, I
:41:45. > :41:48.have been living with the same person for 33 years and three grown
:41:48. > :41:52.up children, I hear our model of family life and parenting and
:41:52. > :41:58.relationship is not as good as somebody else's. Let me say on
:41:58. > :42:02.behalf of myself and my family and The Marriage Foundation and anyone
:42:02. > :42:08.who represents families, I love lone parent families. I'm not a
:42:08. > :42:13.lone parent family. We should support them, but we should support
:42:13. > :42:19.married families. And unmarried families? That is the, if I told
:42:19. > :42:22.you my uncle had died aged 90 having smoked 60fags a day he is
:42:22. > :42:29.the exception not the rule. You can't tell everyone not to smoke
:42:29. > :42:34.because he has done OK. Fiona has done OK but she's the exceptional.
:42:34. > :42:39.Lots of marriages fail too? Tiny numbers of unmarried couples make
:42:39. > :42:42.it through. Not tiny numbers, a smaller proportion than married
:42:42. > :42:45.couples. The numbers are different to begin with. You can't compare
:42:45. > :42:48.married to cohabiting families. You have to accept and reflect that
:42:48. > :42:52.society is different and there are far more, it is different family
:42:52. > :42:56.types, and people are making choices that work for them and it
:42:56. > :42:58.is dynamic. Not everyone will remain in the same relationship
:42:58. > :43:02.status throughout. You know they will change and different
:43:02. > :43:06.environments will work differently. One of the reasons Fiona is here,
:43:06. > :43:12.other than her great contribution is we are slightly surprised that
:43:12. > :43:16.someone has been cohabiting for 33 years stim together. I don't know
:43:16. > :43:20.why our joorb is still together. I don't know why you are surprised,
:43:20. > :43:23.he's a pussy cat. Knowing her partner, if you had a married
:43:23. > :43:27.couple married for 33 years that would be less significant. We have
:43:27. > :43:32.looked for someone who has been cohabiting for 33 years and made it
:43:32. > :43:37.so obviously your model. All my married friends are now divorced,
:43:37. > :43:43.seriously. Choose your friends wisely.
:43:43. > :43:47.Let's return to our main story. That is the attack in broad
:43:47. > :43:51.daylight this afternoon in Woolich where a man, believed to be a
:43:51. > :43:56.British soldier was hacked to death, the Home Secretary says it was an
:43:56. > :44:00.attack on everyone in the UK. After the attack the two men were shot by
:44:00. > :44:03.police and are now under armed guard in hospital. Richard Watson
:44:04. > :44:08.is here again. What are the options the Government will be looking at
:44:08. > :44:15.now? I think they will be taking a very close look at the preventing
:44:15. > :44:20.violent extreme policy, which has been in place for some years now.
:44:20. > :44:24.Called PREVENT for short. This is to encourage people in the Muslim
:44:24. > :44:28.community to come forward with community intelligence with
:44:28. > :44:34.information about extremists in their midst. The question is who
:44:34. > :44:38.did these men know, they have been around since 2003 and converted to
:44:38. > :44:42.Islam then. Who knew what they were doing, did anyone know if they held
:44:42. > :44:46.extreme views and did they report it to the police? There is one note
:44:46. > :44:51.of caution from another source of mine tonight who said, look, we
:44:51. > :44:56.have a serious problem in the UK at the moment. He was speaking to some
:44:56. > :45:00.young British Muslims today after this attack and actually they
:45:00. > :45:04.expressed a certain satisfaction to him about today's attack. Saying
:45:04. > :45:09.this was a good thing. Very shocking if true. I think it shows
:45:09. > :45:16.the depth of the problem that we do face. Although they, they are
:45:16. > :45:19.totally unrepresented and a tiny minority? A tiny minority, even
:45:19. > :45:23.though they are a tiny minority, if you have these views even amongst a
:45:23. > :45:26.tiny number of people, it presents a serious problem to the police and
:45:26. > :45:30.Security Service. Thank you very much indeed. Not surprisingly this
:45:30. > :45:40.terrible attack is on the front page of many and all of the
:45:40. > :46:01.
:46:01. > :46:11.That's all for tonight, until That's all for tonight, until
:46:11. > :46:33.
:46:33. > :46:36.tomorrow, goodnight. Good evening, a cold wind flows across tonight
:46:36. > :46:41.into tomorrow. Showers further south. Most across eing and Wales
:46:41. > :46:48.start dry with sunshine. Cloudy in the north. Filtering down in the
:46:48. > :46:53.strengthening wind. Even if you leave with house -- with sunshine
:46:53. > :46:57.overhead it won't stay like that. The showers not as heavy as in the
:46:57. > :47:02.morning. Wind and snow across the high grounds. Blizzard conditions
:47:02. > :47:05.on the top of the Grampians. Strong and gusty wind making it feel cold.
:47:05. > :47:08.Heavy showers late morning and early afternoon, central and
:47:08. > :47:14.southern areas this is where the heavy showers with under thiser and
:47:14. > :47:18.hail mixed in will be for the second half of the day.
:47:18. > :47:23.Temperatures across the country 9- 16. The heavier showers could have
:47:23. > :47:27.some snow mixed in on the tops of the hills. Particularly for