:00:18. > :00:23.He was Drummer Lee Rigby of the 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of
:00:23. > :00:28.Fusiliers. He served in Afghanistan and loaves a two-year-old son Jack.
:00:28. > :00:34.Yesterday he was horrifically murdered in Woolich. Two men were
:00:34. > :00:40.arrested yesterday, more held today. We devote the programme to analysis
:00:40. > :00:44.of this abhorrent crime. What is the extent of home-grown extremism
:00:44. > :00:47.in the UK? If the Security Services knew about them could they have
:00:47. > :00:56.been stopped? It is clear that would have been very hard. This is
:00:56. > :01:04.a new type of political violence, simple letter, and more -- simpler
:01:04. > :01:11.and more difficult to thwart. is Michael Adebolajo standing
:01:11. > :01:14.behind a former leader of a banned extremist organisation did this man
:01:14. > :01:19.help radicalise the murder suspect, we will challenge him. Flowers
:01:19. > :01:22.today, how will yesterday's killing affect community relations. When
:01:22. > :01:32.our soldiers are being attacked, it proves we are second class citizens
:01:32. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :01:37.in our own country. Good evening, the family of
:01:37. > :01:42.murdered Drummer Lee Rigby, who was 25 from Greater Manchester, tonight
:01:42. > :01:46.paid tribute to a loving son, husband, father, brother and uncle.
:01:46. > :01:50.The two men suspected of killing him from known to the Security
:01:50. > :01:54.Services. One has been identified as 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo
:01:54. > :01:57.from Romford in Essex, a Muslim convert. Tonight, after two more
:01:57. > :02:02.arrested today, we ask whether the attack was part of a larger
:02:02. > :02:07.extremist grouping, or the actions of two called lone wolves. How they
:02:07. > :02:10.were radicalised and whether this hate crime will impact on race and
:02:10. > :02:14.communications? First I'm joined by our defence editor. How has the
:02:14. > :02:19.investigation been progressing? police, interestingly, put out a
:02:19. > :02:22.statement this afternoon talking in terms of a complex multifaceted
:02:22. > :02:25.investigation, many lines of inquiry, that kind of thing.
:02:25. > :02:29.Interesting to see them like many other people, politicians, media,
:02:29. > :02:33.responding in this standard format. It is very similar language we have
:02:33. > :02:38.heard after previous incidents. Yet there is something very different
:02:38. > :02:43.about what has happened here. In a sense it is so obvious what
:02:43. > :02:49.happened yesterday. It is not a very complex issue. Dozens of
:02:49. > :02:52.witnesses, CCTV, phones, all the rest of it. In another sense it is
:02:52. > :02:55.very complicated. Whether those people had any real connections
:02:55. > :02:58.with others, whether there were people sheltering and inspiring
:02:58. > :03:02.them to do that is a more complicated question, they are now
:03:02. > :03:06.trying to get to the bottom of that. We know they were on a list of
:03:06. > :03:09.suspected people by MI5, the Security Service, that has re-
:03:09. > :03:14.opened questions, familiar ones again, about whether a change in
:03:14. > :03:17.the law is needed. We saw the former Home Secretary, John Reid on
:03:17. > :03:20.the programme, and Jack Straw today saying wider interception of
:03:20. > :03:27.communications is necessary if the country really wants to be able to
:03:27. > :03:34.monitor the activities of thousands of people on these lists. A as if
:03:34. > :03:40.thait -- fascinating thing today is the way people have oscillated
:03:40. > :03:49.their response to the situation and how to respond to this new type of
:03:49. > :03:54.violence. For the police, a day of raids, six
:03:54. > :03:58.properties were targeted, including five in London and one in Lincoln.
:03:58. > :04:05.They were connected to the two suspects in yesterday's attack.
:04:05. > :04:11.Michael Adebolajo, seen here in 207 at a demonstration of the Al-
:04:11. > :04:14.Muhajiroun group, and he had had a regard of activism. One man
:04:15. > :04:20.convicted of terrorism offences remembers Adebolajo well.
:04:20. > :04:25.Definitely he has been somebody who has been around and the police know
:04:25. > :04:29.who he is. I don't really know what they mean by he's a clean skin, or
:04:29. > :04:34.if he's not a clean skin. It is certainly doesn't seem like
:04:34. > :04:38.somebody who came out of nowhere. Certainly not a lunatic or hiding
:04:38. > :04:41.his belief, he has been very outspoken about his concerns and
:04:41. > :04:46.grievances. Of the other suspect much less has been said. It is
:04:46. > :04:51.known he was also on police files, and it has been suggested that he
:04:51. > :04:58.too may be of Nigerian origin. Local people today remembered the
:04:58. > :05:02.victim of the attack, a rebel of the 2nd Battalion Royal Regiment of
:05:02. > :05:06.Fusiliers. Drummer Lee Rigby, a popular member of his band and
:05:06. > :05:11.battalion. He had served in Afghanistan. After an initial order
:05:11. > :05:16.to the forces not to go out in uniform, the Government recinded
:05:16. > :05:19.that, urging troops to carry on as normal. We are determined not to be
:05:19. > :05:22.intimidated into not doing the right thing, whether here in this
:05:23. > :05:28.country or in Afghanistan or wherever we seek to serve the
:05:28. > :05:31.nation. So it hasn't facted us in a direct sense, if anything it has
:05:31. > :05:36.reinforced our desire and determination to do the right thing.
:05:36. > :05:40.The knowledge that the two attackers were known militants has
:05:40. > :05:45.caused questions for the security authorities. But an act of violence,
:05:46. > :05:49.committed by two men with a car and some knives, required little
:05:49. > :05:57.preparation and any foreknowledge may have been confined to a small
:05:57. > :06:00.group. Making it very hard to detect in vans. There is no need
:06:00. > :06:05.for any complex plot, there is no need for e-mail communication,
:06:05. > :06:10.there is no need for experimenting with explosives, buying material
:06:10. > :06:14.quietly. You could do this very straight forwardly, very quickly,
:06:14. > :06:18.without arousing any attention whatsoever. And that made it
:06:18. > :06:23.incredibly difficult to prevent and incredibly difficult to detect. I'm
:06:23. > :06:26.not surprised that, if you want, there was a failure to detect it on
:06:26. > :06:29.those grounds. The only way to detect this was if you had
:06:29. > :06:33.intelligence about them as individuals, not the nature of the
:06:33. > :06:36.plot but about them as individuals. For the Prime Minister a difficult
:06:36. > :06:40.balancing act. Acknowledging the attack, meeting with community
:06:40. > :06:47.leaders to head off any tensions, while not I a peering to concede
:06:47. > :06:50.the agenda to men of violence. After an event like this, it is
:06:50. > :06:55.natural that questions will be asked about what additional steps
:06:55. > :07:00.can be taken to keep us safe. I will make sure those questions are
:07:00. > :07:04.asked and answered. But I'm not in favour of knee-jerk responses. The
:07:04. > :07:08.police have responded with heightened security and activity,
:07:08. > :07:18.and that is right. But one of the best ways of defeating terrorism is
:07:18. > :07:21.
:07:21. > :07:24.to go about our normal lives. That is what we shall all do. Some
:07:24. > :07:28.reactions to Woolich may look like business as usual, but in many ways
:07:29. > :07:32.it followed a distinct and novel pattern. This was a new kind of
:07:32. > :07:36.political violence, perhaps more hate crime than terrorism as we
:07:36. > :07:41.have traditionally defined it. There was a single victim, rather
:07:41. > :07:45.than mass casualties as there were on 7/7. And the choice of weapons,
:07:45. > :07:49.knives and a car, as well as the small number of people who would
:07:49. > :07:53.have needed to know about it in advance, all made it very unlikely
:07:53. > :07:58.that the plotters would be discovered by the Security Service.
:07:58. > :08:03.Add to that the dramatic effect of the alleged attacker addressing
:08:03. > :08:10.people on the scene afterwards and you have a disturbing at the
:08:10. > :08:17.phenomenon that further -- a disturbing phenomenon that security
:08:17. > :08:20.chiefs believe is all too easy to copy. There was a simple attack, no
:08:20. > :08:24.complicated elements, no explosives, no long-term planning, get some
:08:24. > :08:29.knives, get a car, carry out the attack. Very, very simple, very,
:08:30. > :08:34.very difficult to stop. The trade- off is you are limited in terms of
:08:35. > :08:39.what you can do. Given that one of the key elements for most terrorist
:08:39. > :08:42.attacks is they attract media attention, it has to be seen as a
:08:42. > :08:47.huge success. The aftermath of this attack is still unfolding. Two
:08:47. > :08:52.people this afternoon were arrested as part of the inquiry. How the
:08:52. > :08:59.authorities deal with this, whether it inspires imitators are important
:08:59. > :09:06.questions for the coming tonights. We are going to discuss those now.
:09:06. > :09:10.I'm joined in the studio by Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP for Tooting,
:09:10. > :09:14.and New York by Richard Barrett the former hid of counter terrorism,
:09:14. > :09:18.and until a few months ago head of the Al-Qaeda monitoring team. First
:09:18. > :09:23.of all, Sadiq Khan, how chilling was the nature of this attack,
:09:23. > :09:29.given it was extremely low-tech and not disorganised but apparently
:09:29. > :09:33.unorganised? Anybody who saw the horrific images last night, the
:09:33. > :09:36.newspaper pictures today will have been horrified. What is remarkable
:09:36. > :09:41.is actually previously terrorists would use programmes like Al-
:09:41. > :09:46.Jazeera, or outlets like that to get their images out there and
:09:46. > :09:50.their story out and their justification out. What you had
:09:50. > :09:54.last night was people with mobile phones being asked to record this
:09:54. > :09:58.and it being over YouTube and some of the TV channels as well last
:09:58. > :10:01.night, so the methods were simple, but actually the method of
:10:01. > :10:04.radicalisation is simple as well. Rather than a physical preacher in
:10:04. > :10:09.the room radicalising you, it is done over the Internet. Richard
:10:09. > :10:14.Barrett, from your point of view, how different did this appear to be,
:10:14. > :10:18.this idea that these men were standing there on their ground
:10:18. > :10:25.waiting to be picked up. They wanted their story to be beamed
:10:25. > :10:30.around the world. This is new isn't it? Well, I'm not sure how new it
:10:30. > :10:35.is. The attack, for example, in Boston was rather similar, wasn't
:10:35. > :10:39.it. I know those guys tried to get away. They hadn't made any real
:10:39. > :10:45.plan to get away. I think that these unorganised attacks, as you
:10:45. > :10:49.called them, do have this as a hallmark. That the people are
:10:50. > :10:54.really looking for visual impact, their objective afterall is to
:10:54. > :11:01.terrorise, not to kill people. And the horrific killing in Woolich,
:11:01. > :11:08.but one person, as you say, rather than the victims that there were on
:11:08. > :11:12."severn". But the impact -- 7/7. But the impact is the same, they
:11:13. > :11:18.still managed to get the huge persuasive terrorist impact rather
:11:19. > :11:23.than just committing some murder somewhere and sneaking down a
:11:23. > :11:29.backstreet. There is a delay in the line. How hard do you think this
:11:29. > :11:36.kind of terror, this hate crime is to stop? Given they may not be part
:11:36. > :11:40.of a group which has been targeted by surveillance regularly? I think
:11:40. > :11:44.it is incredibly hard to stop. I assume that these people are
:11:44. > :11:48.probably coming out of a small group, without necessarily any
:11:48. > :11:51.overseas connections or any other broader connections in the UK.
:11:51. > :11:58.Which could come to the attention of the Security Services more than
:11:58. > :12:02.they did. When does a person who expresses radical views, who joins
:12:02. > :12:08.a radical group flip over to be a violent extremist, somebody who
:12:08. > :12:13.will commit a crime like this. And to find the signals, the red flags,
:12:13. > :12:17.as it were, is enormously hard. I imagine that these two people
:12:17. > :12:26.themselves probably didn't have any intention to commit a crime like
:12:26. > :12:30.this until relatively recently before they did. I think it is an
:12:30. > :12:34.amazingly difficult job. Richard Barrett's view, the fact that they
:12:34. > :12:39.hadn't preplanned it for a long time. We know the Al-Qaeda magazine
:12:39. > :12:45.talked about the idea of using cars and of course the idea of using
:12:45. > :12:49.pressure cookers which the Boston killers used. But, we know that
:12:49. > :12:55.although these suspects were subject to surveillance before, we
:12:55. > :12:58.know that recently one of the suspects has been talking quite
:12:58. > :13:01.inflammatory language. Is there a mechanism whereby those pieces of
:13:01. > :13:06.information can come to the attention of the security forces?
:13:06. > :13:09.It is early days yet. We don't know all the facts of this case. What we
:13:09. > :13:13.do know is where historically people could be radicalised in
:13:13. > :13:17.groups, they were governed spaced and could be inside a mosque.
:13:17. > :13:20.Nowadays you can be radicalised in your bedroom, or in somebody's
:13:20. > :13:25.living room. Also the most primitive methods were used, not
:13:25. > :13:30.ricin, not explosives, not fertilisers, but a knife and a meat
:13:30. > :13:36.cutter. So a word of caution. What they are trying to target is a way
:13:36. > :13:44.of life. We have an open society. A member of parliament sees their
:13:44. > :13:47.constituents, the risks they take there. Stephen Timms was. We have
:13:47. > :13:51.soldiers who can walk around in their uniforms and be proud to do
:13:51. > :13:56.so. And police without guns. want all those things, does it have
:13:56. > :14:00.to be compromised? Those are the values we are proud of and under
:14:00. > :14:05.attack. Of course we should prevent as many as we can, and the Security
:14:05. > :14:11.Services do, but some will get through. It is virtually impossible
:14:11. > :14:16.to stop, we know the suspects were under surveillance, and formerly,
:14:16. > :14:20.presumably not on the radar now. As we said earlier, that applies to
:14:20. > :14:28.thousands of people. Is there any way, it is a needle in a haystack,
:14:28. > :14:32.is it not? It is a bit of a needle in a haystack. It is important to
:14:32. > :14:36.remember the, not only the lack of resources perhaps, but also the
:14:36. > :14:39.legal framework within which the Security Services work. Sure, they
:14:39. > :14:45.must have had some indication that these guys were a problem in order
:14:45. > :14:48.to note their names. But it is one thing to note their names, it is
:14:48. > :14:52.quite another thing to take invasive action to track their
:14:52. > :14:56.movements and so on. Clearly the evidence didn't stack up enough to
:14:56. > :15:00.be able to cross these legal thresholds that are important. I
:15:00. > :15:04.think when we are talking about these attacks, what are those guys
:15:04. > :15:08.trying to do? They are essentially trying to change our society. But I
:15:08. > :15:13.don't think they are trying to change our society in a way that
:15:13. > :15:17.enhances our values. I think they are trying to undermine our values.
:15:17. > :15:22.If our reaction is to put over more surveillance then we are doing that
:15:22. > :15:25.job for them. Basically it is not about increasing surveillance but
:15:25. > :15:31.attacking the ideology, ordealing with the ideology, as a Muslim what
:15:31. > :15:35.is the best way to do that? What has been great over the last 24
:15:35. > :15:40.hours is everyone has come out and condemned the act and everyone's
:15:40. > :15:44.sympathy and prayers are with the family of Drummer Lee Rigby. There
:15:44. > :15:50.are some people who are radicalised by individuals, and your piece
:15:50. > :15:53.talked about a potential radicaliser. Also the Internet, it
:15:54. > :15:58.is difficult to curb the information coming there or
:15:58. > :16:03.stopping people reading literature. We need to make we are a resilient
:16:03. > :16:06.society, if someone comes out with rhetoric that is inflammatory and
:16:06. > :16:09.inciting violence they are challenged. Also information is
:16:09. > :16:12.made available to people who can do something about it, that is a
:16:12. > :16:15.different thing? One of the things the police are doing is try to
:16:15. > :16:18.continue to get the confidence of the public, we police by consent.
:16:18. > :16:22.The Security Services and the police, with the best will in the
:16:22. > :16:26.world with all the tools need the public to come forward. And that
:16:26. > :16:29.means the public will have confidence in those in power and
:16:29. > :16:33.authority. Yesterday's murder has highlighted
:16:33. > :16:38.the dangers of home-grown terrorism. British Muslims radicalised either
:16:38. > :16:43.as we were talking about by like- minded extremist groups, so juorns
:16:43. > :16:48.abroad or in their rooms through social media. Although few in
:16:48. > :16:52.number they can be extremly threatening, we report on --
:16:52. > :16:58.extremely threatening, we report on a sub-culture. How dangerous is it?
:16:58. > :17:04.We are talking about small scale terrorist threats. It is right to
:17:04. > :17:09.combat that threat to get people to come on board and come forward with
:17:09. > :17:19.community evidence. I have been taking a look at home-grown
:17:19. > :17:26.
:17:26. > :17:33.terrorism extremism, it starts with disturbing images from yesterday.
:17:33. > :17:37.Classic rhetoric, and Mohammed Sadiq Khan film here. The Jihadi
:17:37. > :17:41.narrative of Islam at war with the west. Yet the London bombings were
:17:41. > :17:45.almost eight years ago. There has been a sense, perhaps more a hope,
:17:45. > :17:49.that the appetite for extremism in Britain has been in decline.
:17:49. > :17:56.Afterall, there has been no successful lethal terrorist attack
:17:56. > :18:04.on home soil since 2005. But some comments made after the attacks
:18:04. > :18:09.suggest that Britain may have a very serious problem indeed. This
:18:09. > :18:11.man advises the Metropolitan Police on community relations, he's a
:18:11. > :18:15.leader in High Wickham's substantial Muslim community, he
:18:15. > :18:22.says they were deeply shocked by the attack. We heard a different
:18:22. > :18:27.variety of views, mainly shock and horror. However within there, there
:18:27. > :18:30.were some people who were talking in a manner that presented a
:18:30. > :18:34.justification for this evil act. They are not seeing the picture
:18:34. > :18:40.that most of us see which is this is a young man with a family.
:18:40. > :18:43.course almost all British Muslims utterly condemn the attack, though
:18:43. > :18:53.a small minority seem to disagree. Last night we trawled through
:18:53. > :19:00.
:19:00. > :19:10.comments on the Internet. Some were One person used a photograph of
:19:10. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:25.Osama Bin Laden as his internet Another tweet we read belittles the
:19:25. > :19:36.
:19:36. > :19:41.crime. Other messages were more extreme. The Government has a
:19:41. > :19:44.policy to counter such sentiments, preventing violent extremism,
:19:44. > :19:48.stopping people to take it to the next stage is crucial, because
:19:48. > :19:53.small plots are so difficult to uncover. This is one of the
:19:54. > :19:58.challenges that exists now, because you can have intelligence, you can
:19:58. > :20:02.have information, but when you have small-scale plots, that are not
:20:02. > :20:06.necessarily mass casualty, looking to perhaps blow up a plane or a
:20:06. > :20:10.building, focused on targeted assassinations, it becomes very
:20:10. > :20:15.hard to monitor that activity. The only way is through the Internet.
:20:16. > :20:19.Increasingly one is finding that is the platform, the pulpit for
:20:19. > :20:24.extremism. Some critics suggest leaders inside the Muslim community
:20:25. > :20:29.itself have been slow to tackle the problem in its midst. And as a
:20:29. > :20:33.consequence, this latest attack was inevitable. It doesn't surprise me
:20:33. > :20:37.at all. In fact you will not be surprised to hear that I believe
:20:37. > :20:41.you will experience far more attacks, because this is, the root
:20:41. > :20:46.causes have not changed. Neither has the policy changed that leads
:20:46. > :20:50.to this rage, and neither have the Muslim community been educated by
:20:50. > :20:54.our leadership as to what peaceful, democratic, political measure they
:20:54. > :20:59.could take to bring about that change that they so need. Does it
:20:59. > :21:02.surprise you that eight years ever 7/7, the London bombings, we are
:21:02. > :21:06.still facing these problems? just now, we are going to face the
:21:06. > :21:09.same problems eight years further down the line and more. Until we
:21:09. > :21:15.get to the root causes of this anger, this strong emotion, things
:21:15. > :21:19.are not going to change. Yesterday's brutal murder has been
:21:19. > :21:24.profoundly shocking for virtually all Britains. But the fact that a
:21:24. > :21:28.Tyne -- Britons, but the fact that a tiny minority support such acts
:21:28. > :21:31.mean there is a ready pool of new recruits. Despite of Government
:21:31. > :21:36.programmes and a clear community rejection of this nihilism, that
:21:36. > :21:40.problem persists. Earlier this evening I spoke to
:21:40. > :21:45.Anjem Choudary, who you saw earlier in the package, a radical Muslim
:21:45. > :21:49.who once led the now banned extremist group, Al-Muhajiroun. Mr
:21:49. > :21:52.Choudary says he knows the Woolich suspect, Michael Adebolajo, and he
:21:52. > :21:57.was standing alongside him in a protest in images that emerged
:21:57. > :22:01.today. During our discussion he was challenged on his views by the
:22:02. > :22:06.executive director of the Islamic Society of Britain, and by the Iman
:22:06. > :22:09.Shams Adduha Muhammad, the director of the college in East London.
:22:09. > :22:16.Anjem Choudary what was your relationship with Michael
:22:16. > :22:19.Adebolajo? As an Islamic movement we come across many people, as you
:22:19. > :22:24.know Al-Muhajiroun has been in existence for 10-15 years. He came
:22:24. > :22:27.to the demonstrations and attended some of the lectures. He stood next
:22:27. > :22:30.to you in the demonstrations? come across thousands of people in
:22:30. > :22:36.our own activities. The Al- Muhajiroun of the most popular
:22:36. > :22:40.Islamic movement among the youth, especially in the 1990s. Now it is
:22:40. > :22:46.banned. When did you last speak to him? About two or three years ago.
:22:46. > :22:49.When you saw him standing there with his bloodied hands and meat
:22:49. > :22:52.cleavers, were you horrified? were shocked like everybody else.
:22:53. > :22:57.Horrified? It was a shocking scene, there is no doubt about that.
:22:57. > :23:03.you abhor what he did? I think what he said explains what he did.
:23:03. > :23:07.That's a different thing. That's a different thing, I'm really wanting
:23:07. > :23:10.your reaction, when you saw that image of him were you horrified?
:23:10. > :23:15.When I saw what took place I was shocked. Let me say one thing, what
:23:15. > :23:19.he said in the clip, which has been played widely, I think not many
:23:19. > :23:24.Muslims would disagree with. He was talking about the British foreign
:23:24. > :23:28.policy. Let's be clear, you are making a very big assertion there,
:23:28. > :23:32.and I have to say I would disagree that many Muslims? Most Muslims
:23:32. > :23:38.around the world would agree. to you I find it extraordinary that
:23:38. > :23:44.you could not say that you abhored the scene of him standing, what he
:23:44. > :23:47.had done, he had actually killed a man in the street. And you can't
:23:47. > :23:51.bring yourself? One man killed in the street doesn't equate to the
:23:51. > :23:58.hundreds of thousands of millions slaughtered by the British,
:23:58. > :24:03.American foreign policy. Those tortured in Guantanamo Bay, if we
:24:03. > :24:07.are abhoring where there is the condemnation for the British
:24:07. > :24:11.foreign policy. This was in Woolich beside a primary school, you
:24:11. > :24:14.attended that primary school. I'm asking you a simple question, are
:24:14. > :24:19.you refusing to condemn what happened because you had a hand in
:24:19. > :24:28.radicalising Michael Adebolajo? radicalisation is calling for
:24:28. > :24:31.Sharia and expose ex-- exposing the British foreign policy and calling
:24:31. > :24:35.for radicalisation, I have no problem with that. We are on record
:24:35. > :24:38.as saying Muslims in Britain have a covenant of security, in return for
:24:38. > :24:43.their life being protected they can't target the lives of those
:24:43. > :24:48.with whom they live. The fact is that Anjem Choudary may not have
:24:48. > :24:51.many follower, but surely what he is saying now and these events show
:24:51. > :24:55.he's dangerous? I haven't come across a single Muslim and I
:24:55. > :25:03.interact with a lot of them who agrees with what happened and would
:25:03. > :25:07.agree with that narrative. I think although he refuses to abhor, in
:25:07. > :25:11.his own way he said that what has happened is unjustified. If it is
:25:11. > :25:17.unjustified why can't you just say it is wrong. You said if we're here
:25:17. > :25:20.on a covenant, right, for our safety and our security, and if
:25:21. > :25:24.based on that same narrative it is incorrect to go out there and kill
:25:24. > :25:33.someone. An innocent person. There is no condemnation of the cause of
:25:33. > :25:37.that. If we deal with the cause which is the occupation of Muslim
:25:38. > :25:41.land. Anjem Choudary would you please, I would like you. Why is it
:25:41. > :25:49.not possible. Be polite for a moment. Why is it not possible for
:25:49. > :25:52.us as Muslims, who are people who follow a path that is holistic,
:25:52. > :25:57.without focusing on one particular aspect that deals with Jihad et
:25:57. > :26:01.cetera, why is it we cannot condemn what happened here, right, and at
:26:02. > :26:05.the same time air our views with regards to what goes on in terms of
:26:06. > :26:10.foreign policy. What do you do with people who have been radicalised by
:26:10. > :26:14.Anjem Choudary coming to your mosque, what happens? To be honest
:26:14. > :26:18.people of that particular mind set, they tend to stick to themselves,
:26:18. > :26:21.and they don't want to speak to anybody. There is a notion among
:26:21. > :26:25.themselves, because of the way they think that everybody else is a
:26:25. > :26:29.hypocrite because everybody else doesn't go around openly condemning.
:26:29. > :26:32.Speak and verify with me. That is not true. From your point of view,
:26:32. > :26:36.what impact do you think the small minority of people who hold Anjem
:26:36. > :26:41.Choudary's views have, is the impact disproportionate to their
:26:41. > :26:44.number? I just want to give our condolences and thoughts to Lee
:26:44. > :26:49.Rigby's family. Seeing his photo today has brought it home. A very
:26:49. > :26:52.smart young man in his uniform and how horrific it was he was murdered
:26:52. > :26:56.like that in cold blood. Our thoughts go to his family and the
:26:56. > :27:01.people who had to witness something as horrific as that. Everyone has
:27:01. > :27:04.been shocked and outraged about what has happened. Condmation from
:27:05. > :27:08.every Muslim organisation. What damage though. This kind of
:27:08. > :27:11.rhetoric has no place in this country. And the vast majority of
:27:11. > :27:18.people would say that, the majority of people have stood together today
:27:18. > :27:24.from all faiths, all background, Muslims and not, and said you will
:27:24. > :27:28.not divide this country. Anjem Choudary, you seem not, if I'm
:27:28. > :27:31.right to like Britain very much, and there are people of all creeds
:27:31. > :27:38.and none who wish that you would just go and take your views with
:27:38. > :27:41.you. Why do you stay? The point is, I was born in this country,. I'm
:27:41. > :27:45.older than both these people. I should not have to believe. If I
:27:45. > :27:49.want to propagage my belief, and I want to have Sharia and expose
:27:49. > :27:52.British foreign policy. Hang about I don't do anything illegal, I
:27:52. > :27:55.haven't been raided and arrested, why have you a problem with my
:27:55. > :27:59.views, if you don't like my views, in accordance to the law, why don't
:27:59. > :28:04.you leave the country, I'm not doing anything illegal. The problem
:28:04. > :28:09.is, people can be, people I think the issue here is that you are
:28:09. > :28:13.expressing your views as a Muslim and trying to express them as a
:28:14. > :28:21.legitimate view within Islam, the majority of Muslims do not agree
:28:21. > :28:25.with you. The basic narrative here is that Islam isn't a holistic
:28:25. > :28:31.religion that teaches every single aspect of life. The narrative that
:28:31. > :28:34.comes out of yourself seems to focus purely on politics. How do
:28:34. > :28:39.you counter this, how do you counter this, because you have, in
:28:40. > :28:42.a sense, hearing this, presumably fears that this will be what
:28:42. > :28:46.divides rather than brings together. The very thing that you have just
:28:46. > :28:48.said you want to do? I think you know there is absolutely no
:28:48. > :28:53.justification for what we saw yesterday. It doesn't matter what
:28:53. > :28:56.is happening abroad, and as the Iman has said it is a separate
:28:56. > :29:01.issue. People up and down the country can talk about that. You
:29:01. > :29:05.can never equate that to what we saw yesterday. There is one short
:29:05. > :29:09.question I want you to respond to honestly. It is unIslamic not to
:29:09. > :29:14.condemn the murder yesterday? believe that action for me would
:29:14. > :29:19.not be aed load. I do believe there is a difference of opinion. So it
:29:19. > :29:26.is unIslamic? Not as far as other people are concerned. Not as far as
:29:26. > :29:29.is Al-Qaeda. Thank you very much everybody.
:29:29. > :29:34.In the aftermath of the killing of Lee Rigby, many people of all
:29:34. > :29:39.faiths and none visited the site of the murder to pay their respects
:29:39. > :29:42.and a tribute. For a small minority it was an opportunity to create
:29:42. > :29:46.division under the banner of the English Defence League. Will the
:29:46. > :29:56.terrible events in Woolich have ramification for race and community
:29:56. > :30:04.
:30:04. > :30:09.relations. Hello. After a deliberately public
:30:09. > :30:14.atrocity, a public display of grief outside Woolich ba barracks. Many
:30:14. > :30:18.came today to express -- Woolwich Barracks. Many came to express
:30:18. > :30:24.their horror at the killing of Lee Rigby. Among them a woman whose own
:30:24. > :30:27.son was stabbed to death in East London 12 years ago. It is still a
:30:27. > :30:31.murder and that guy's body was lying in the road yesterday. How
:30:31. > :30:35.would that mother have felt. I know how I felt when the police knocked
:30:35. > :30:39.at my door, I know how that lady feels and will feel for the rest of
:30:39. > :30:44.her life. Are you worried about the reprecussions? Not at all. We will
:30:44. > :30:51.unite. This is Woolich, this is Plumstead, we do unite. I mean last
:30:51. > :30:54.night what happened in the town centre was ridiculous. We see the
:30:54. > :30:57.Muslim up there. This is what happened in Woolich town centre
:30:57. > :31:01.last night, members of the far right group the English Defence
:31:01. > :31:04.League confronted police as they protested against what they called
:31:04. > :31:09.the spread of political Islam. And outside the barracks today there
:31:09. > :31:12.was some who agreed with the EDL's message. The English people have
:31:12. > :31:16.had enough now, we are saying we won't have this on our streets, our
:31:16. > :31:20.soldiers should not, in their own country be in danger. They are
:31:21. > :31:24.meant to be safe at home. You think some poor parent has got a phone
:31:24. > :31:28.call saying their child is dead. You would think they would be safe
:31:28. > :31:31.in their own country. Afghanistan you are waiting for that call, here
:31:31. > :31:36.in Woolich, it is disgusting it has happened. What do you think should
:31:36. > :31:42.be about it? I can't really say what I really think, I think it
:31:42. > :31:45.won't be put on air. Give me a clue? Send them all back to where
:31:45. > :31:50.they come from. The English Defence League take a good hiding whether
:31:50. > :31:54.they stand up and say what they want or they don't. I don't know I
:31:54. > :31:58.think they are talking for a lot of the people and a lot of the way
:31:58. > :32:02.people feel now. We feel like second class citizens in our own
:32:02. > :32:05.country, basically. I think when our soldiers are being attacked it
:32:05. > :32:10.proves we are second class citizens in our own country.
:32:10. > :32:13.I met other white people in Woolich today who don't share those views.
:32:13. > :32:18.But there were some others who did, but said they feared to speak
:32:18. > :32:22.openly for fear of being branded raceist.
:32:22. > :32:25.This borrowing, Greenwich, has seen rapid social change. The proportion
:32:25. > :32:34.of the population that is white has fallen by more than 10% in just ten
:32:34. > :32:38.years. This lady, who grew up here, says most people have got on quite
:32:39. > :32:42.well, despite deep social problems. She thinks the use of the word
:32:42. > :32:48."terrorism" to describe yesterday's crime will now divide them of the
:32:48. > :32:53.think they will have to deal with the reprecussions it will create
:32:53. > :32:57.moral panic, and the EDL marching around, obviously they are anti-
:32:58. > :33:01.Muslim groups. They are going to create, it will create a bit more
:33:01. > :33:06.tension. At the local Islamic centre today, few wanted to talk
:33:06. > :33:10.about the killing. Fears of an anti-Muslim backlash have increased
:33:10. > :33:17.after mosques in Kent and Essex were attacked last night. Here the
:33:17. > :33:22.Iman would only make a prepared statement. Let the response of our
:33:22. > :33:29.nation be mature and thoughtful. This is a moment of prayer. Unity
:33:29. > :33:33.and not of hasty reaction. Thank you very much. What are the dangers
:33:33. > :33:36.now do you think for community relations? I'm sorry I can't speak
:33:36. > :33:40.much now, we are deeply saddened with this issue. We have never been
:33:40. > :33:44.facing this kind of thing in this neighbourhood. So we can't speak
:33:44. > :33:53.more. And we don't have our feelings, we are so disturbed and
:33:53. > :33:57.so saddened by this issue. estate behind the mosque, now very
:33:57. > :34:00.ethically mixed was unusually quiet today. Among those nervous about
:34:00. > :34:04.the future is Josie Murphy a convert to Islam. I'm worried about
:34:04. > :34:08.the tension in the community. It is giving the wrong impression of
:34:08. > :34:15.Islam. Regardless of what the soldier did in the paths, at that
:34:15. > :34:25.precise moment he was innocent. He was an innocent. It is wrong, it is
:34:25. > :34:26.
:34:26. > :34:32.so wrong. I'm a bit worried about the problems that may arise after.
:34:32. > :34:37.What kind of problems do you think might arise? Hate, just hate.
:34:37. > :34:41.main purpose of yesterday's crime was apparently to try to raise
:34:42. > :34:45.tensions in society. And many people here are afraid that's what
:34:45. > :34:52.will now happen, with various different groups trying to use
:34:52. > :34:56.yesterday's terrible events to advance their own agendas. Grief
:34:56. > :35:02.unites, but can also divide. What effect it has here won't be clear
:35:02. > :35:12.until long after the flowers have faileded -- faded.
:35:12. > :35:15.
:35:15. > :35:19.We have our guests with nouse now. -- us now.
:35:19. > :35:24.First of all, Matthew, listening to people in the film there, there is
:35:24. > :35:28.two things, there is an insecurity about what actually happened and
:35:28. > :35:31.the seeming randomness of it happening and obviously the target
:35:31. > :35:34.was the soldiers, but we had no notice or idea that anything was
:35:34. > :35:38.going to happen. They are worried about that, they are also worried
:35:38. > :35:41.about the impact it will have on essentially a mixed community?
:35:41. > :35:46.think all communities will be worried about the impact of the
:35:46. > :35:50.events. Just to give you a sense of how this has played out over the
:35:50. > :35:55.past 15 hours. If we look at the world, the murky world of the far
:35:55. > :35:58.right, more than 60,000 people have subscribed to the English Defence
:35:58. > :36:03.League's Facebook page since the attack. This is new people?
:36:03. > :36:07.people, on top of the 21,000 who were already subscribing. Can you
:36:08. > :36:11.get any sense of where they are subscribing from, is it just
:36:11. > :36:17.somewhere? We will have that data in time. At the moment what we have
:36:17. > :36:20.seen is the attack revitalising a movement that was rapidly
:36:20. > :36:25.disintegrating. The English Defence League was very quick yesterday to
:36:25. > :36:30.move from on-line into offline action. And to move geographically
:36:30. > :36:34.as well? Yes that's right. I think it is understandable that when
:36:34. > :36:40.there is such a provocative incident like this that you would
:36:40. > :36:43.see this surge of interest in extremist group. That doesn't
:36:43. > :36:49.automatically translate into people actually joining in fisically and
:36:49. > :36:54.showing up. So whilst 60,000 people have now expressed interest in the
:36:54. > :37:02.EDL on-line, it was more like 60EDL activists turning up in Woolich
:37:02. > :37:06.last night. You were there? I was there. What happens? This group of
:37:06. > :37:11.60 tried to go into the square and charged with bottles. They charged
:37:11. > :37:14.a group of locals and passers by, a mixed race group, the police caught
:37:14. > :37:18.up and separated them. The rest of the right descended into running
:37:18. > :37:22.battles with the police. What I would say about that is probably
:37:22. > :37:28.most of those 60 activists wouldn't be from Woolich. They would have
:37:28. > :37:31.come from outside. Like the EDL's leader, Steven Lennon, he came from
:37:31. > :37:35.Lutton specifically to try to provoke a larger backlash in
:37:35. > :37:41.Woolich. What happens then, not just in Woolich, but elsewhere, to
:37:41. > :37:46.counter the impact of the EDL? think once condemnation makes way
:37:46. > :37:53.for analysis we are going to face some big questions. Have we got our
:37:53. > :37:58.strategy on integration right? Have we devoted enough resources to
:37:58. > :38:01.building bridges across communities. Do people, do British Muslims feel
:38:01. > :38:05.confident about coming forward and saying they are deeply worried
:38:05. > :38:09.about perhaps somebody that they have heard expressing extremist
:38:09. > :38:13.views. Do people feel comfortable that they will be supported if they
:38:13. > :38:16.come forward? Well what is clear is that those views are certainly
:38:16. > :38:21.there. They are well entrenched and they were there long before the
:38:21. > :38:25.crisis, they were there, to be honest, long before the attacks on
:38:25. > :38:30.7/7 and in 2001. I think just going back to the point about impact,
:38:31. > :38:35.over the longer term, I think we do have to sit down and think about
:38:35. > :38:41.how extremism and different forms of extremism and their wider circle
:38:41. > :38:45.of tacit support are changing. What we can do really to cut off that
:38:45. > :38:49.well that surround these individual groups. Do you feel that well
:38:49. > :38:58.poisons the whole nature of multiculturalism if it is not
:38:58. > :39:02.stopped? Well I mean on the question of multiculturalism, I
:39:02. > :39:07.mean this is a very ambiguous term. It is often held up as the example
:39:07. > :39:10.of all that has gone wrong with British society. In terms of state
:39:10. > :39:15.policies, multiculturalism hasn't really been pursued for a decade or
:39:15. > :39:22.so. But I think it has another meaning and a more colloquial
:39:22. > :39:26.meaning, to many it is just a byword for the existence of a
:39:26. > :39:31.multiethnic society. Groups like the EDL and populist politicians
:39:31. > :39:35.and others will use that word as a nod and a wink to say to people as
:39:35. > :39:41.if you are really not happy from take your pick from a list of
:39:41. > :39:44.things, immigration, the presence of Muslims in Britain, you know,
:39:44. > :39:49.rally against multiculturalism and we will get rid of all this. Where
:39:49. > :39:58.is the onus, who is the onus on? think that is a crucial question.
:39:58. > :40:01.You raise this idea a minute ago about Muslims rooting out
:40:01. > :40:06.extremists within their own community, I think it has to go
:40:06. > :40:11.beyond that. We can't expect the weight of this to fall on the
:40:11. > :40:13.shoulders of one community. Where the far right has been most
:40:13. > :40:17.successfully opposed in the past it has been grassroots organisations
:40:17. > :40:23.with the help of the state, or local councils and the rest of it.
:40:23. > :40:28.What you are suggesting is if you have 60,000 clicks on a Facebook
:40:28. > :40:32.site it is about rooting that out from within the community as well?
:40:32. > :40:35.What we saw last night was something that some analysts called
:40:35. > :40:39.cumulative extremism, where you have one form of extremism bouncing
:40:39. > :40:44.off another in a spiral of conflict and tension. That is a challenge,
:40:44. > :40:48.because over the last ten years we as a society have got used to
:40:48. > :40:52.focusing on one form of extremism, it is Al-Qaeda or the far right. We
:40:52. > :40:58.don't actually think that seriously about the interplay between the two.
:40:58. > :41:02.If you heard one of the women in the film saying she felt like a
:41:02. > :41:07.second class citizen, white British working-class, have they been short
:41:07. > :41:12.changed? Not by British Muslims, but just by being short changed by
:41:12. > :41:15.society? I think we have to be very careful. I'm not sure of Dan's view,
:41:15. > :41:18.but the whole debate about British national identity is getting tired.
:41:18. > :41:24.There is a risk we trip into another debate about where is
:41:24. > :41:28.Britain in the 21st century. This ultimately was an act of violent
:41:28. > :41:38.extremism. Thank you very much. Tomorrow morning's front pages,
:41:38. > :42:16.
:42:16. > :42:20.obviously Woolich dominates the Richard Watson joins us gip. Where
:42:20. > :42:23.is again. Where will the investigation go to now? It can be
:42:23. > :42:26.summarised on three points, the network, the police and the
:42:26. > :42:29.Security Service no doubt will be looking at whether these people had
:42:29. > :42:34.a wider network. At the moment there is no indication of that. It
:42:34. > :42:38.looks like a fairly discreet unit. Support, what support, if any, did
:42:38. > :42:42.they receive from others? And knowledge, community knowledge
:42:42. > :42:49.about what was going on? In all likelyhood someone would have known
:42:49. > :42:54.that they had some extremist views. How wide that net was spread will
:42:54. > :43:01.be subject to further investigation. These are the areas we will focus
:43:01. > :43:05.on. Presumably and on the on contacts they had in other places,
:43:05. > :43:11.not with the intent to kill but with that mindset? The network will
:43:11. > :43:14.be very important, who they were associated with, and who they were
:43:14. > :43:17.communicating with. Mentoring possibly? Who they will be mentored
:43:17. > :43:21.by. But these will be crucial aspect, the short-term
:43:21. > :43:24.investigation but also to the much longer term investigation, which is
:43:25. > :43:29.absolutely crucial if Britain is to tackle the problem of extremism in
:43:29. > :43:32.the longer term. Thank you to all my guests tonight.
:43:32. > :43:42.That is all we have time for tonight. We will have more tomorrow,
:43:42. > :44:15.
:44:15. > :44:18.until then from all of us here good night. Good evening, some
:44:18. > :44:21.unseasonable and chilly and wet weather to bring the week to a
:44:21. > :44:25.close. For Scotland and Northern Ireland a slightly quieter day.
:44:25. > :44:28.Lighter winds and a dryer story, warmer in the sunshine. Big
:44:28. > :44:30.contrasts between the north and the south. For the south west of
:44:30. > :44:34.England and Wales, perhaps some brighter spells through the
:44:34. > :44:39.afternoon. It will feel chilly, partly because of the low
:44:39. > :44:44.temperatures but also because of the strong and gusty winds. Across
:44:44. > :44:49.the central areas of England highs of 8 or 9, compromised which the
:44:49. > :44:59.wind and rain. It will feel cold. For Scotland and Northern Ireland
:44:59. > :45:21.