:00:16. > :00:21.Tonight, MI5 hand over their preliminary report on what they
:00:21. > :00:23.knew about the men from the Woolich murders. More questions are raised
:00:23. > :00:27.about the Security Services involvement.
:00:27. > :00:30.Abu Nusaybah, arrested after being on Newsnight on Friday, writes to
:00:30. > :00:35.the chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, Malcolm
:00:35. > :00:41.Rifkind, with disturbing claims of what might have contributed to
:00:41. > :00:45.Michael Adebolajo's behaviour. We will discuss that with Sir Malcolm.
:00:45. > :00:47.Thousands of Iraqis dead since April, is the country supposedly
:00:47. > :00:52.liberated by the US and British invasion ten years ago now in
:00:52. > :01:00.danger of falling apart. The call of the wild, should wolves,
:01:00. > :01:02.bears and moose, and other British animals be reintroduced? How would
:01:02. > :01:11.farmers react. We have discussion on rewilding of Britain.
:01:11. > :01:15.You have a problem with sheep? are the white playing that has --
:01:15. > :01:19.plague and destroyed our hills. They have uploaded our ecosystem,
:01:19. > :01:24.they have reduced it to a bowling green with contours. A better way
:01:24. > :01:29.it teach our children, we hear about maths teaching done on-line,
:01:29. > :01:39.and real live teachers spend more time offering one-to-one tuition.
:01:39. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :01:43.We ask the founder will it work in the UK.
:01:43. > :01:48.Good evening, Abu Nusaybah, friend of the man arrested at the scene of
:01:48. > :01:50.the Woolich murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. Has written to the chairman
:01:50. > :01:55.of the Commons Intelligence and Security Committee with further
:01:55. > :01:59.allegations about the role of MI5. Abu Nusaybah was arrested
:01:59. > :02:01.immediately after an interview with Newsnight on Friday. From prison he
:02:01. > :02:07.has written to Malcolm Rifkind asking his committee to investigate
:02:07. > :02:10.if there was a connection between MI5 and the mistreatment of the
:02:10. > :02:16.suspected killer, Michael Adebolajo. It is claimed he suffered at the
:02:16. > :02:19.hands of the Kenyan authorities. Richard Watson who interviewed Abu
:02:19. > :02:23.Nusaybah on Friday is with us. There was a furore after the
:02:23. > :02:27.interview, remind us of the allegations he's been making about
:02:27. > :02:31.MI5? It is important to remember that Abu Nusaybah is being held at
:02:31. > :02:35.the moment in police custody on suggestions or allegations
:02:35. > :02:42.unconnected to the actual Woolich murders. However, he's clearly a
:02:42. > :02:49.man who knows the suspect quite closely. He grew up with him, he
:02:49. > :02:54.converted to Islam in 2003/04, they were both connected with the
:02:54. > :03:00.extremist group Al-Muhajiroun. In his interview with me he made some
:03:00. > :03:05.serious allegations against MI5. Did he blame MI5 for the harassment.
:03:05. > :03:11.Do you suspect that his argument was it made him more angry?
:03:11. > :03:15.exact words were the Kenor torturers, as I call them, their
:03:15. > :03:20.statement was "do you think your Government is going to help you,
:03:20. > :03:24.who do you think asked us to do this". That was his own statement,
:03:24. > :03:29.that is very clear as far as he is concerned you know that the British
:03:29. > :03:34.Government had involvement in it. Whether it is MI5, whether it is
:03:34. > :03:37.any other branch of the Government. But definitely somebody had form of
:03:37. > :03:41.involvement according to his own words. You can't be sure about that
:03:41. > :03:44.can you? You have only got his judgment for that? It is his
:03:44. > :03:47.statement. But you know what I'm pretty confident because I'm fully
:03:47. > :03:51.aware that there is an investigation into the intelligence
:03:51. > :03:54.regarding him. I'm almost certain that it will come to light if it is
:03:54. > :03:58.an honest investigation. Those are the allegations and they
:03:58. > :04:03.are just allegations. What has been the official response? These
:04:03. > :04:07.allegations concern principally his visit to Kenya in 2010 and his
:04:07. > :04:12.allegation that he was tortured. He really says that MI5 was some how
:04:12. > :04:16.aware of his mistreatment, he also said they harassed him after he
:04:16. > :04:21.came back to the UK in 2010. One can't expect the Security Service
:04:21. > :04:24.to comment in detail about the specific case. In general terms
:04:24. > :04:29.sources say, they make the point that British Security Services and
:04:29. > :04:34.the police don't get involved in torture. And they also made the
:04:34. > :04:36.point that harassment is one way of putting it, but it is not uncommon
:04:37. > :04:42.for the Security Service, for example, to approach an individual,
:04:42. > :04:46.who may be considered a potential asset on numerous occasions. So one
:04:46. > :04:50.man's harassment may be another person's diligence. We will talk to
:04:50. > :04:55.Sir Malcolm in a moment about the letter, what is in it? The letter
:04:55. > :05:01.is quite extraordinary. In it he says he had no participation or
:05:01. > :05:04.knowledge of the shooting. However he did not deny that this
:05:04. > :05:12.individual was known to him and an associate of his for a number of
:05:12. > :05:16.years. On his detention in Kenya he goes on to write, "Michael was told
:05:16. > :05:20.by his captors that this action by them was at the behest of the UK
:05:20. > :05:30.authorities. He could not forget or forgive them for this connivance in
:05:30. > :05:32.this brutal treatment". He goes on to make another claim,
:05:32. > :05:35."I implore you to investigate any connection between the UK and
:05:35. > :05:39.Kenyan authorities in the mistreatment of Michael Adebolajo
:05:39. > :05:42.whilst in their hands ". Quite serious allegations. Can you clear
:05:42. > :05:46.up one point, there is a lot of confusion about the movement of
:05:46. > :05:49.these suspects, what do you know about that? The timeline has been
:05:49. > :05:52.crystalising since I did the interview on Friday. I think what
:05:52. > :05:57.is crystalising out of this at the moment is that Michael Adebolajo
:05:57. > :06:01.went to Kenya in 2010. He says on his account he was detained, we
:06:01. > :06:06.know he was detained. He says he was tortured, the Foreign Office
:06:06. > :06:10.has confirmed that he received consular assistance then, we can be
:06:10. > :06:14.sure he was there. He travelled back to the UK in 2010. He says on
:06:14. > :06:18.his account he was repeatedly approached by MI5, put under
:06:18. > :06:23.harassment, so he says. Crucially my understanding is that he also
:06:23. > :06:26.tried to travel abroad just last year. That's unconfirmed. But the
:06:26. > :06:33.suggestion I'm getting is he was stopped or persuaded not to travel
:06:33. > :06:35.abroad last year too. Sir Malcolm Rifkind is chairman of
:06:35. > :06:38.the Intelligence and Security Committee which is charged
:06:38. > :06:44.withholding the intill begins services to account on behalf of
:06:44. > :06:49.parliament and the public. These allegations from Abu Nusaybah in
:06:49. > :06:52.the letter to you about alleged MI5 harassment and also potentially
:06:52. > :06:55.complicity, will you be looking into them? I can confirm I have
:06:55. > :07:00.received that letter and we will treat it as we are treating all the
:07:00. > :07:04.other reports that have appeared in the newspapers, or on television,
:07:04. > :07:10.making various claims about whether the intelligence agencies were
:07:10. > :07:15.involved. That is our job, our job is to look at these matters, I have
:07:15. > :07:18.already had an initial conversation with the head of MI5. He is very
:07:18. > :07:21.anxious to co-operate very fully with the Intelligence and Security
:07:21. > :07:26.Committee. Of course we have very considerable new powers under the
:07:26. > :07:30.justice and security act, which has just come into force. We can, we
:07:30. > :07:34.don't have to ask for documents we can require them. We have the legal
:07:34. > :07:37.requirement to see what needs to be seen and we can also look at the
:07:37. > :07:41.source material they have, the reports, the intelligence material,
:07:41. > :07:44.if that is relevant to the issues at stake. Those are powers you
:07:44. > :07:47.didn't have before? No we were dependant on the voluntary co-
:07:47. > :07:50.operation of the agencies in the past. The other side of this is
:07:50. > :07:54.people will also want to know you are looking into other allegations
:07:54. > :07:58.which have been widely covered in the press which are simply that MI5
:07:58. > :08:01.perhaps could have done more, that they had tabs on these people but
:08:01. > :08:05.didn't look closely enough? I won't comment on that at the moment.
:08:05. > :08:11.Obviously we have to carry out the inquiry. What I would say is that
:08:11. > :08:19.do look at the record of the last year, few years since the 7/7
:08:19. > :08:24.bombings. We have not had a single British citizen killed until the
:08:24. > :08:28.tragic events at Woolich since 2005. That doesn't mean that there
:08:28. > :08:32.haven't been terrorist plots, there has been one or two plots a year.
:08:33. > :08:36.Each of them were disrupted by MI5, the other intelligence agencies and
:08:36. > :08:39.the police working very, very effectively together. That is a
:08:39. > :08:43.record which is certainly very impressive. I'm not commenting on
:08:43. > :08:47.what happened in Woolich, that is a matter we have to look into still.
:08:47. > :08:53.But MI5 can certain low say they have served the country well over -
:08:53. > :08:56.- certainly say they have served the country well preventing further
:08:56. > :09:00.terrorist attacks. It is judgment, they have to keep tabs on some
:09:00. > :09:03.people they find unsavoury, but in the public interest try to get them
:09:03. > :09:08.to co-operate, that is quite tricky? The question of approaching
:09:08. > :09:12.people, again not commenting on the current case, but as a general
:09:12. > :09:16.principle all intelligence agencies as a fundamental part of their job
:09:16. > :09:19.to try to find individuals and terrorist organisations, or
:09:19. > :09:24.extremist organisations, who are prepared to share information with
:09:24. > :09:31.the intelligence agencies. That is a good thing? Of course, it is
:09:31. > :09:34.exactly is supposed to happen. That is why you prevent these things
:09:34. > :09:36.happening. Why people co-operate can be for a number of reasons.
:09:36. > :09:40.Sometimes they have stopped being extremists and turned against the
:09:40. > :09:42.organisation of which they are a member, and want to help prevent
:09:42. > :09:45.terrorism. Sometimes they have had some disagreement with the other
:09:45. > :09:50.people in the organisation. They have a sense of grievance.
:09:50. > :09:55.Sometimes they want to be paid. But in each case it can sometimes be a
:09:55. > :09:58.very valuable source of information. You point out you have new and
:09:58. > :10:04.better powers. You presume below also want to get on with it? We are
:10:04. > :10:08.getting on with it. How quickly do you think you can do it. One of the
:10:08. > :10:12.criticisims after 7/7 is there were so many stories and rumours which
:10:12. > :10:17.wasn't to anyone's advantage? have already begun the process. I
:10:17. > :10:22.have had an initial conversation with the head of MI5. Today we
:10:22. > :10:24.received the committee itself received a preliminary report from
:10:24. > :10:30.MI5 outlining the overall background to the situation. What
:10:30. > :10:32.we expect MI5 to do now and what we know they are going to be doing is
:10:32. > :10:36.looking into their own files and sources of information, bringing
:10:36. > :10:39.together all the material they have that might be relevant to our
:10:39. > :10:44.inquiries. Once they have done that then the next stage will be for us
:10:44. > :10:48.to take evidence from MI5 and to study the documentation that may be
:10:48. > :10:53.put before us. How quickly do you think you could actually publish
:10:53. > :10:56.this? I don't know.A few months? Who knows, we will produce it as
:10:56. > :10:59.quickly as we can. It is more important to get the right
:10:59. > :11:04.conclusion than to get a hurried conclusion. When we come to a
:11:04. > :11:07.conclusion we do two things. First of all we send a report to the
:11:07. > :11:12.Prime Minister, but at the same time a report will be presented to
:11:12. > :11:15.parliament which will be published. Some of that report may have to be
:11:15. > :11:19.redacted, some information may have to be left out, but only on grounds
:11:19. > :11:24.of national security, and we will decide whether there are grounds of
:11:24. > :11:30.national security that require these redaxs, but I can certainly -
:11:30. > :11:34.- de dactions, regardless of the changes needed to be made to the
:11:34. > :11:37.public document, we will reach conclusions as to whether in our
:11:37. > :11:42.judgment MI5 acted reasonably or not.
:11:42. > :11:46.In the run up to the Iraq War the then US Secretary of State, Colin
:11:46. > :11:49.Powell, commented if you break it you own it. By his standards even
:11:49. > :11:54.after the withdrawal of the haeorn and British troops the state of
:11:54. > :11:59.Iraq is broken, and even perhaps now we own a part of that mess.
:11:59. > :12:03.More than 500 Iraqios have died this month in sectarian conflict,
:12:03. > :12:06.bringing the death toll to 1,000 since April. There are fears the
:12:07. > :12:11.country could fall apart. When the European Union is considering how
:12:11. > :12:18.to help arm the Syrian opposition, we have been examining the bloody
:12:18. > :12:22.intervention in neighbouring Iraq ten years ago.
:12:22. > :12:28.In Iraq the ebb and flow of violence can be measured in car
:12:28. > :12:32.bombs. There were 15 yesterday killing 70 people. That's a level
:12:32. > :12:36.of trouble reminiscent of the dark days of 2006, when the country
:12:36. > :12:41.seemed to be plunging into Civil War. Sectarian tensions between
:12:41. > :12:48.Sunni and Shia are high once more. And many are blaming the Prime
:12:48. > :12:54.Minister, Nouri al-Maliki. belief is Al-Maliki is seen as
:12:54. > :12:58.responsible for the security. He took it upon himself to make
:12:58. > :13:01.security the platform on which he runs for the elections. And so as
:13:01. > :13:05.things get worse his opponents, even those that are in Government
:13:05. > :13:09.but are his opponents believe that this is not such a bad thing for
:13:09. > :13:14.them. So they haven't really put in the effort to try to stop the
:13:14. > :13:18.violence from rising. This is what we saw during the
:13:18. > :13:22.American surge, how flash point neighbourhoods were sealed off to
:13:22. > :13:25.thwart sectarian death squads. Special force, meanwhile, took
:13:25. > :13:30.apart the car bombing gangs and the combined effect meant that the
:13:30. > :13:36.violence had been largely stopped by 2008.
:13:36. > :13:40.But Sunni unrest and counter violence has escalated and local
:13:40. > :13:44.elections last month were suspended in two key Sunni provinces. Those
:13:44. > :13:48.who back the Prime Minister and Shia majority argue the trouble has
:13:49. > :13:56.come from those who cannot accept the new Iraq.
:13:56. > :14:05.Through this change in 2003, through the democratic process it
:14:05. > :14:09.can't be the same way as before. Some of the Sunnis feel not happy.
:14:09. > :14:13.Whatever they get because they were the rulers, now they are part of
:14:13. > :14:17.the rulers. Sips the Americans have gone Mr Al-
:14:17. > :14:20.Maliki -- since the Americans have gone, Mr Al-Maliki has tried to
:14:20. > :14:24.arrest his Vice President and other Sunni leading ministers, and they
:14:24. > :14:29.have left Baghdad, saying they are unsafe. With bombs now targeting
:14:29. > :14:34.the Shia power base of Sadr City, there was another there today. He
:14:34. > :14:38.has tried to defend his stance as a non-sectarian leader.
:14:38. > :14:42.TRANSLATION: The cabinet has unanimously agreed to stand as one
:14:42. > :14:46.to confront the crisis and send a message of reassurance that all are
:14:46. > :14:50.in agreement of shouldering their responsibility and confronting the
:14:50. > :14:55.outlaws regardless of their affiliation, sex or political party
:14:55. > :14:59.they belong to. The war in Syria is stirring tensions too. Posters to
:14:59. > :15:03.those who have died fighting in Syria have appeared in Iraq, in
:15:03. > :15:09.both Shia and Sunni communities. The international front tear
:15:09. > :15:12.between Iraq and Syria is well known, established early in the
:15:12. > :15:16.20th century. The sectarian boundary is quite different. This
:15:17. > :15:20.is it in simplified form. The fault line runs through Iraq with the
:15:20. > :15:25.majority Sunni areas to the west and North West of that line there
:15:25. > :15:32.in orange. The strongholds of resistance in
:15:32. > :15:38.Ramadi and Fallujah, now in Hamah and Homs way to the west, the Sunni
:15:38. > :15:42.majority cities and the strong resistance to the Assad regime.
:15:42. > :15:45.Syrian conflict is having an impact on Iraq. It is having an impact
:15:45. > :15:48.politically because different people within the Iraqi governing
:15:49. > :15:54.class have a different approach of how they should be dealing with the
:15:54. > :15:57.crisis. On the ground it is having an impact. The borders are very
:15:57. > :16:00.poor as everyone knows. Iraq suffered from that reality when
:16:00. > :16:04.fighters were coming from Syria into Iraq. Now we have the opposite.
:16:04. > :16:08.There is a lot of talk about fighters and weapons and money
:16:08. > :16:12.being taken going into Syria. last few days have taken Baghdad
:16:12. > :16:16.back to the dark hours of several years ago.
:16:16. > :16:26.Reconciliation between the communities could hardly be more
:16:26. > :16:26.
:16:26. > :16:30.urgent. But events in Syria can't help that. Dr Zuhair al Nahar is a
:16:30. > :16:37.spokesperson for Nouri al-Maliki's heart. We are joined by a research
:16:37. > :16:43.fellow fromp Kennedy Cool. Zuhair al Nahar, how far is this a crisis
:16:43. > :16:47.of Mr Al-Maliki's making, he has alienated large sections of the
:16:47. > :16:54.Sunni population? Prime Minister Al-Maliki ran on the basis of non-
:16:54. > :16:58.sectarian. He formed the State of Law coalition, which aimed to get
:16:58. > :17:03.all parties and people of all communities under a political
:17:03. > :17:08.banner. It is not working, that is the point. Has he given up on the
:17:08. > :17:12.Sunnis? The main problem is there are extremist Sunni elements allied
:17:12. > :17:16.with the former militant regime supporters of Saddam. Those are the
:17:16. > :17:21.ones who have been causing all the problems. They have been attacking
:17:21. > :17:25.Shia areas, but also Sunni areas. They have been killing Sunnis and
:17:25. > :17:30.Shias, with the aim of destablising the political process, the new
:17:30. > :17:34.democracy that Iraq has become. is working from their point of view,
:17:34. > :17:39.presumably? These plans will not succeed, because we saw today the
:17:39. > :17:45.whole of the Iraqi cabinet, including major Sunni members of
:17:45. > :17:49.the Government, the Deputy Prime Minister, and other Sunni ministers
:17:49. > :17:52.joining together and supporting the army and the Government. Let me
:17:52. > :17:56.bring Nussaibah Younis in, you wrote that Mr Al-Maliki should
:17:56. > :18:02.resign as Prime Minister, why do you think that? I think that at the
:18:02. > :18:06.moment we're in a really serious situation where unless something
:18:06. > :18:09.drastic is done the violence in Iraq threatens to spiral out of
:18:09. > :18:13.control. I don't think the resignation of Prime Minister Al-
:18:13. > :18:18.Maliki will solve all of Iraq's problems. But I think what it could
:18:18. > :18:23.do is jump start a process of political reconciliation that
:18:23. > :18:27.absolutely the only thing standing between Iraq now and all-out Civil
:18:27. > :18:34.War. Can I ask you though can anybody hold this country together?
:18:34. > :18:38.That's not a dictator like Saddam. Do you think a democratic Iraq can
:18:39. > :18:44.join up? It is absolutely possible. What Iraq needs is a political
:18:44. > :18:49.elite with a real vision for Iraqi unity. And what that requires is
:18:49. > :18:53.recognising that Iraq's in a post- Civil War, but pre-reconciled state.
:18:53. > :18:59.And unless there is a serious process of reconciliation then you
:18:59. > :19:04.are never going to have a political settlement that will be durable.
:19:04. > :19:08.And unfortunately Iraq's political elite, since 2010, since the very
:19:08. > :19:13.promising showingings in the 2010 elections where people did vote for
:19:13. > :19:16.coalitions that were crosssectarian and moderate. Since that time
:19:16. > :19:20.Iraq's political elites have unfortunately squadered the
:19:20. > :19:27.opportunity to engage, to take up that opportunity to have a real
:19:27. > :19:33.process of reconciliation. Dr Al Nahar how much does Syria
:19:33. > :19:37.complicate what is going on in Iraq. Are you getting a sill spillover
:19:37. > :19:41.from there? Syria -- a spillover from there? Syria is a big worry.
:19:41. > :19:44.Iraq has always had the view that both side of the Syrian conflict
:19:44. > :19:50.should not be armed. That will only escalate the situation and increase
:19:50. > :19:54.loss of life. Can I pursue that for a moment, today we have reported
:19:54. > :19:58.that the European Union, prompted by Britain and France is lifting
:19:58. > :20:02.the arms embargo. Your Government believes that is wrong? Absolutely,
:20:02. > :20:07.we believe arming one side or both sides or any side will just
:20:07. > :20:11.escalate the conflict and cause more loss of life. Including the
:20:11. > :20:14.Russians sending anti-aircraft missiles to the Assad regime?
:20:14. > :20:18.don't support that at all. We support the idea of encouraging
:20:19. > :20:23.both sides to sit down and negotiate a peaceful settlement.
:20:23. > :20:27.that using actually a spillover of violence. There are fighters moving
:20:27. > :20:34.around in that area and it is very difficult to quite keep track?
:20:34. > :20:39.indeed. What I mentioned that the extremist Sunni elements allied
:20:39. > :20:44.with the former militant ba'athists, they are causing all the bloodshed
:20:44. > :20:47.in Iraq. With the aim of stirring up sectarian war. This will not
:20:47. > :20:55.succeed, because the majority of Shias have resisted that. They want
:20:55. > :21:02.the unity of Iraq and they want the violence to stop. How bad do you
:21:02. > :21:05.worry it might get, you laid out an optimistic scenario, what is the
:21:05. > :21:10.pessimistic one? The real worry this time is because Syria is
:21:10. > :21:14.already in a deep low intractable and violent Civil War that if --
:21:14. > :21:17.deeply and intractable and violent Civil War, if Iraq is allowed to
:21:17. > :21:20.collapse at the moment the impact on the whole of the Middle East
:21:20. > :21:25.could be enormous. You could see a division of the Middle East by
:21:25. > :21:29.sectarian fault lines. We have already this week seen Hezbollah
:21:29. > :21:34.throw in its lot behind Assad. You know in a much more forceful way
:21:34. > :21:42.than we have seen before. We already have some involvement by
:21:42. > :21:46.elements of the Iraqi population in the Syrian crisis. If Iraq is
:21:46. > :21:49.allowed to collapse at this stage, we could see a vast expansion of
:21:49. > :21:52.the remit of the Syrian conflict. That doesn't been fit anyone.
:21:53. > :21:56.a final thought on that, does Britain and the United States still
:21:56. > :22:02.bear some responsibility for this do you think? I mentioned Colin
:22:02. > :22:09.Powell's dictum, if you brake it you own it? I believe that America
:22:09. > :22:13.-- "if you break it you own it"? I believe America must put more
:22:13. > :22:18.effort into trying to contain foreign interference in Iraq,
:22:18. > :22:23.possibly by the gulf states feeding those extremists in Iraq. There is
:22:23. > :22:29.a big role that the western powers can play. As far as the point
:22:29. > :22:36.concerned, Iraq will not collapse or go into Civil War. Because the
:22:36. > :22:41.people, the tribes, the Government and the politicians are behind the
:22:41. > :22:48.army and the police and the extremists are being isolated on a
:22:48. > :22:53.daily basis. Now imagine over the bank holiday weekend that you went
:22:53. > :22:59.for a report in the British countryside and came across some
:22:59. > :23:04.traditional species of animals, bears, bison, lynx, and one of
:23:04. > :23:08.these, a wolf. These were all traditionally British until human
:23:08. > :23:13.beings contributed to their extinction on our islands. Now the
:23:13. > :23:17.writer and broadcaster George Monbiot suggests a programme he
:23:17. > :23:20.calleds rewilding, turning unproductive farmland back over to
:23:21. > :23:30.nature. And perhaps bringing fellows like our stuffed friend
:23:31. > :23:33.
:23:33. > :23:42.over there unstuffed. To most of us the Upland Moors are
:23:42. > :23:50.Britain at its most majestic. A magnificent natural landscape.
:23:51. > :23:55.One of our nation's last unspoilt wildernesses. But a growing
:23:55. > :24:00.campaign seeks to transform these landscapes forever. Turning
:24:00. > :24:03.Britain's moorland into this. The process is being called rewilding,
:24:03. > :24:09.the idea is to let nature take control of the landscape. To
:24:09. > :24:13.reverse thousands of years of democracycation, and allowing an --
:24:13. > :24:23.Dom messcation, and allowing ancient ecosystem like this one to
:24:23. > :24:25.
:24:25. > :24:29.reassert themselves. Britain's rewilder in chief is George Monbiot.
:24:29. > :24:33.What went on here was mining and the trees were burnt and cut and
:24:33. > :24:37.cleared and you end up with this, a barren landscape. What you have
:24:37. > :24:42.here is heather and rough grassland is typical of the vegetation you
:24:42. > :24:47.get all over the world where you have had repeated reforestation,
:24:47. > :24:52.you get low vegetation like this. In Britain we fetishise it and say
:24:52. > :24:58.this is what we want to preserve. In the management plan they
:24:58. > :25:03.describe trees as undesirable and invasive species. His idea of what
:25:03. > :25:08.should happen is woodland like this, 20 years ago this was open moorland.
:25:08. > :25:11.All right we see this real transformation of the ecosystem. It
:25:11. > :25:15.was bleak and barren, there was very little living here, now we
:25:15. > :25:20.have the trees, the insects which are coming in and eating the tree,
:25:20. > :25:25.we have the birds eating the insects, we have underfloor things
:25:25. > :25:28.growing. Woodland on the whole is much more biodiverse and richer, it
:25:28. > :25:33.has more ecological niches, it has cover, which is what so many
:25:33. > :25:38.species need. But creating places like this means
:25:39. > :25:43.making some profound changes to the way land in Britain is managed.
:25:43. > :25:47.Starting by getting rid of the woolly ruminant from Mesopotamia,
:25:47. > :25:55.which George Monbiot clearly regards as an undesirable immigrant.
:25:55. > :26:01.You seem to have a bit of a problem with sheep? Yes, they are the white
:26:01. > :26:06.plague which has destroyed the vegetation. The white plague?
:26:06. > :26:12.they have deluded the entire upland ecosystem, they have reduced it to
:26:12. > :26:17.a bowling green with contours. This was a very rich, forested, abundant
:26:17. > :26:22.ecosystem with variety of species. Some will say George you are being
:26:22. > :26:27.niave, the sheep are here for an economic reason? I understand that,
:26:27. > :26:32.the really reason they are here because we pay for it. The average
:26:32. > :26:37.subsidy a hill farmer gets in Wales is �53,000. Not surprisingly these
:26:37. > :26:44.ideas are proving controversial, particularly with those who have
:26:44. > :26:49.most to lose like sheep farmers? have producing some food for the
:26:49. > :26:52.population of these hills. No other animal can do that, that is why we
:26:52. > :26:56.have sheep farmers in Wales. says if you were to get rid of the
:26:56. > :27:03.sheep and reintroduce some of the old trees and stuff that used to
:27:04. > :27:06.grow up there, you would have a much richer ecosystem? Five million
:27:06. > :27:11.years ago there was only a few thousand people living in the world,
:27:11. > :27:18.that is what is living in the UK today. We as farmers we have a job
:27:18. > :27:21.to feed the ever-increasing population in the world. A lot of
:27:21. > :27:24.these academics, they are very intelligent, but they haven't got
:27:24. > :27:28.much common sense. They are out-of- touch, that is coming from a
:27:28. > :27:33.practical farmer who has lived in the hills. I do believe if they
:27:33. > :27:37.tried to live in Wales and couldn't hack it, but we stick it and
:27:37. > :27:40.produce our food. The irony is that this place, the
:27:41. > :27:46.landscape that George Monbiot describes as a barren desert is
:27:46. > :27:52.actually a nature reserve. It is funded with public money and
:27:52. > :27:56.regarded by many as one of Wales's rural jewels.
:27:56. > :28:01.Wild Wilding is effectively standing back and letting something
:28:01. > :28:11.go. Estelle Bailey is responsible for managing this place, she is the
:28:11. > :28:15.head of the Montgomerie Wildlife Trust. Steve McMahon says we are
:28:15. > :28:19.now fetishising this as a wilderness, but the real wilderness
:28:19. > :28:24.thousands of years ago would look completely different from this?
:28:24. > :28:27.can't get back to what George is fantasising about. You seem to be
:28:27. > :28:32.saying natural means human intervention to manage ecosystems.
:28:32. > :28:36.George Monbiot is saying we can stand back and let the ecosystem do
:28:36. > :28:42.it themselves? That is the very traditional view of wild and
:28:42. > :28:48.rewilding. That isn't appropriate to the UK landscape. Why not?
:28:48. > :28:52.Simply scale. Spaces like this play a hugely important function for
:28:52. > :28:56.society. If we let this area here go completely back to tree cover,
:28:56. > :29:00.for example, the bog would dry up, where would we be then? We would
:29:00. > :29:05.not be able to store water. We would not be able to clear the
:29:05. > :29:14.water. Soil would begin to erode, the carbon would be released into
:29:14. > :29:18.the atmosphere. It is hugely judgmental.
:29:18. > :29:25.Supporters of rewilding are not just talking about getting rid
:29:25. > :29:29.sheep, they want to bring back species, including these.
:29:29. > :29:35.Our ecosystems are very bottom heavy, they are missing most of the
:29:35. > :29:40.top links in the great web of life. We are only beginning to discover
:29:40. > :29:45.how important certain species are as ecosystem engineers, as changing
:29:45. > :29:51.the world around them. Wolves are a very effective ecosystem engineer,
:29:51. > :29:56.when we were reintroduced to the Yellowstone Natoinal Park, within a
:29:56. > :30:00.few years the whole system had been changed. There were forests where
:30:00. > :30:06.there weren't before, because they frightened the dear out of the
:30:06. > :30:13.valleys. The buys son numbers began to rise -- bison began to rise
:30:13. > :30:17.because of the trees. Bears rose because of the carcasses left by
:30:17. > :30:22.the wolfs. Not everyone agrows releasing predators into the wild
:30:22. > :30:31.is a good idea in Yellowstone or elsewhere.
:30:31. > :30:34.A similar process is already under way here in Britain. The first
:30:34. > :30:44.extinct mammals have been reintroduced in Wales. I'm hoping
:30:44. > :30:45.
:30:45. > :30:49.we will get a glimpse of some of them today. Not as frightening as
:30:49. > :30:54.wolves, perhaps, but talk of the reintroduction of beefers has been
:30:54. > :31:00.very controversial here in Wales d beefers, has been very
:31:00. > :31:06.controversial here in Wales. There is no breeding here, these two are
:31:06. > :31:10.female to as sage farmers' fears. They have to provide -- assuage
:31:10. > :31:14.farmers' fears, they have to provide evidence of a positive
:31:14. > :31:17.impact on the local environment. want to see a restitution of
:31:17. > :31:21.endless processes you don't know where they are going. By the
:31:21. > :31:24.introduction of exciting and dynamic and dangerous predators
:31:24. > :31:29.like wolves. People won't want to have wolves in Wales or Scotland?
:31:29. > :31:34.I'm not suggesting there is no danger at all. But the danger has
:31:34. > :31:39.been wildly exaggerated. George Monbiot wants to prompt a national
:31:39. > :31:44.debate about what it is we're actually trying to conserve. Should
:31:44. > :31:54.it be a landscape man leaves alone, or one in which we play an active
:31:54. > :31:54.
:31:54. > :32:00.role. In short how wild should Britain's wilderness be. Eye guests
:32:00. > :32:04.are with me. Some of what George has said has hit a nerve with sheep
:32:04. > :32:07.farmers, what we have been trying to do and what we have been doing
:32:07. > :32:12.very successfully is managing a very diverse landscape. If you look
:32:12. > :32:16.at the UK as a whole we have an incredible diversity of landscapes
:32:16. > :32:21.because of the sheep grazing and management practices that we have
:32:21. > :32:25.been undertaking. I don't think that to eliminate farmers and sheep,
:32:25. > :32:31.for example, from that landscape you will be creating anything that
:32:31. > :32:34.helps with people's attachment to the countryside. At the moment we
:32:34. > :32:39.have accessible landscapes, multifunctional landscapes because
:32:39. > :32:44.of farming, because we are not only producing food but also active low
:32:44. > :32:48.managing our habitats. That people can access. The white plague
:32:48. > :32:52.probably wasn't your best way of winning over the sheep farmers
:32:52. > :32:56.sitting next to you, do you take on board some of that? We have to feed
:32:56. > :33:01.the population. The farmers do enjoy the land and want us to enjoy
:33:02. > :33:06.the land too? I'm not dissing sheep farmers, I don't like sheep, the
:33:07. > :33:11.farmer are fine. Sheep farmers without sheep would be fine? That
:33:11. > :33:13.would be perfect! I completely understand the cultural and
:33:13. > :33:16.traditional and linguistic advantages of having farmers in the
:33:16. > :33:19.hills and all the rest of it. I'm really not talking about
:33:19. > :33:22.eliminating all the farmers from the hills or anything. What I'm a
:33:22. > :33:27.talking about is giving farmers a choice. At the moment the subsidy
:33:27. > :33:30.system forces them to farm, or at least to clear the land if they are
:33:30. > :33:36.going to get their payments. I'm saying take away the Raul so
:33:36. > :33:40.farmers have a choice as to -- the rule so farmers have a choice as to
:33:40. > :33:44.whether chasing sheep over the hills or lying on a beach. You are
:33:44. > :33:49.saying smaller farms would get the subsidies and bigger ones won't. As
:33:49. > :33:53.a small farm could you get the subsidy or allow the land to return
:33:53. > :33:57.to the way it was at several thousand years ago? If you cap the
:33:57. > :34:03.subsidy, all you will do is get the farmers who will take that initial
:34:03. > :34:10.subs dough but the rest of the land will have to increase production
:34:10. > :34:15.from it to continue our businesses for the future. I'm entering the
:34:15. > :34:17.business and don't want to be bothered with acreage because I
:34:17. > :34:23.have my eyes open to business opportunities when they are there.
:34:23. > :34:26.You won't be limited to acreage, but no supsidies beyond 100
:34:26. > :34:30.hectares, it seems wrong to be paying the biggest landowners, some
:34:30. > :34:34.of the itch richest people in Britain out of the pocket --
:34:34. > :34:41.richest people in Britain out of the pocket of the poorest people in
:34:41. > :34:44.Britain. This is a very fine stuffed fellow here, he may be
:34:45. > :34:49.particularly nice in some kinds of habitats, I can't imagine him on
:34:49. > :34:53.your farm in Kent. What is wrong with the landscape now and the mix
:34:53. > :34:57.now. People love the British countryside? Some people do, I
:34:57. > :35:04.don't. I find it amazing our National Parks, you go to other
:35:04. > :35:08.parks in the world, parks are rich in life. They have carnivores and
:35:08. > :35:12.herbvors, and the ecological structures. You wouldn't want to
:35:12. > :35:17.walk with wolves in the countryside? In the Scottish
:35:17. > :35:20.Highlands they do very well. There is massive surplus population of
:35:20. > :35:24.dear. If you think about the population of the country and their
:35:24. > :35:27.attachment to the environment. It comes through farming, families can
:35:27. > :35:31.go out into the countryside and see sheep on the hills and farmers
:35:31. > :35:35.managing the countryside. They see wildlife as part of that.
:35:35. > :35:39.problem is sheep on the hills is all you see. All the uplands of
:35:39. > :35:44.Britain are the same. That is not true at all. They have been reduced
:35:44. > :35:47.to bowling greens. You couldn't bowl a ball down through the
:35:47. > :35:52.vegetation of the moorlands. Its like we saw in the film, the
:35:52. > :35:58.vegetation is less than knee height, that is the most you will get. The
:35:58. > :36:02.great majority of our uplands, you spend two hours in a bushy suburban
:36:02. > :36:06.garden, you will see more birds of a variety of species than five
:36:06. > :36:10.miles down the road in the park. You are suffering from ecological
:36:10. > :36:13.boredom you said, you need to come out and see what is happening in
:36:13. > :36:19.the countryside really R I can talk outside my door at the moment, blur
:36:19. > :36:24.flies are just coming in, the blue butterflies are flying off at my
:36:24. > :36:27.feet when I go out on my farm. Such a diverse mix.
:36:27. > :36:32.Is part of the core of this that you would have to have no people.
:36:32. > :36:36.It is not the sheep it is the people. If there were half the
:36:36. > :36:42.population or twice the land some of this might be manageable? A wolf
:36:42. > :36:49.turned up in the Netherlands in 2011, they were welcomed. That is a
:36:49. > :36:53.more crowded country than we are. It doesn't have the large expanse
:36:53. > :36:57.of land. You talk about this being a densely populated country, it is,
:36:57. > :37:03.but there are huge expanses where there are not people just sheep.
:37:03. > :37:08.you see practical value in this, beavers and other animals could be
:37:08. > :37:15.reintroduced and we will see whrat Welsh experiment will show?
:37:15. > :37:20.implications of this on a practical scale. The danger is isolating an
:37:20. > :37:23.urban population to become more urban and not have that attachment.
:37:23. > :37:28.It is just the opposite. It is bringing people back into the
:37:28. > :37:37.countryside by making it so much more thrilling and exciting.
:37:37. > :37:45.Carey. School trips at the moment have access. These are so wild low
:37:45. > :37:50.exaggerated. Is there a better way for teachers
:37:50. > :37:53.to teach our children. The founder of the Khan Academy, which gets
:37:53. > :37:58.more than six million stew departments in the United States,
:37:58. > :38:06.to learn the principles of subjects like mathematics by watching lesson
:38:06. > :38:09.on-line. Leaving teachers free to offer one-to-one help and guidance.
:38:09. > :38:13.He's getting the attention of the Education Secretary. First we
:38:13. > :38:16.explain how the academy works. The basic look at the classroom
:38:16. > :38:21.hasn't changed too much over time. We still do education in a very
:38:21. > :38:25.traditional way. They have lessons where he they sit
:38:25. > :38:30.in rows and they have exams at the end of the year and at the end of
:38:30. > :38:35.each stage. And then they leave. It is a pretty industrial process,
:38:35. > :38:40.designed for a 19th century-style economy. The traditional model for
:38:40. > :38:42.education works like this. You have a classroom with pupils and a
:38:42. > :38:49.teacherer, who imparts information. The pupils then take that
:38:49. > :38:52.information home and put it to the test, with attempting exercises as
:38:52. > :38:58.homework. What if we have it around the wrong way. What if we could use
:38:58. > :39:03.the power of technology to liberate the pupils and the teacher from
:39:03. > :39:11.this one-size-fits-all approach. That is the idea behind the Khan
:39:11. > :39:14.Academy, set up by a former hedge fund manager turned educational
:39:14. > :39:19.entrepeneur. Michael Gove thinks Mr Khan is a visionary and truly great
:39:19. > :39:23.man. He also has the support and now money of Bill Gates behind him,
:39:23. > :39:30.who discovered his videos whilst trying to help his own children.
:39:30. > :39:35.There is a website that I have just been using with my kids recently
:39:35. > :39:42.called Kahan Academy, one guy doing unbelievable 15-minute tutorals.
:39:42. > :39:46.The way it works is this, the pupil would watch video lessons at home f
:39:46. > :39:50.they don't understand they can rewind and have another look
:39:50. > :39:55.(repeats) without holding the rest of the class back. Those who get it
:39:55. > :39:59.first time can crack on at their own pace. Then at school the pupils
:39:59. > :40:06.will do what they used to do as homework. This time with the
:40:06. > :40:09.support of the teacher or another class made to help them. The Khan
:40:10. > :40:14.academy says it is already working in 20,000 classrooms across the
:40:14. > :40:19.world. These teachers have used technology to humanise the
:40:19. > :40:24.classroom. They took a fundamental low dehumanising experience, a
:40:24. > :40:29.bunch of 30 kids with their fingers on their lips and not allowed to
:40:29. > :40:33.interact with them. The teacher giving a one-size-fits-all out
:40:33. > :40:39.there to faces slightly antagonistic, now we are
:40:39. > :40:44.interacting with each other. We are just seeing in education the
:40:44. > :40:53.biggest revolution since the printing press. There is no doubt
:40:53. > :40:57.digital learning by the Khan Academy and other providers will
:40:57. > :41:02.transform education in the next 10- 20 years in schools as is already
:41:02. > :41:05.happening in higher education. is what one of those videos looks
:41:05. > :41:10.like, don't worry there is no test later. If you know the number of
:41:10. > :41:15.protons in the element, you know what that element is. This system
:41:15. > :41:21.isn't about replacing lessons with videos, it is about making shower
:41:21. > :41:25.each pupil understands each topic before they move on to the next.
:41:25. > :41:30.Under the traditional model the class has to keep moving, they had
:41:30. > :41:35.to make progress. Meaning some children get left behind with huge
:41:35. > :41:39.gaps in their understanding. learning to guy your bicycle, I
:41:39. > :41:43.give you a lecture ray head of and give you the bycicle. I come back
:41:43. > :41:51.after two weeks and say you are having trouble taking left turn and
:41:51. > :41:59.you can't quite stop. You are an 80% cyclist. I put a C stamp on
:41:59. > :42:05.your forehead and I say here is a unicycle. As ridiculous as that
:42:05. > :42:11.sounds that is what happens happening in classroom. Big data,
:42:11. > :42:20.the pupil, teacher and the parent can get highly granular data about
:42:20. > :42:25.what's happening in the classroom or what is coming next. No longer
:42:25. > :42:30.with be a bar to education, and it goes for kids around the world.
:42:30. > :42:34.We're joined now by the founder of the company. How did teachers react
:42:34. > :42:40.to this. Do they feel threatened that you are trying to do them out
:42:40. > :42:45.of a job? It depends how they perceive us, if you read a
:42:45. > :42:50.newspaper report and people read about this on-line virtual
:42:50. > :42:58.education stuff. This is a kneejerk reaction, will this be Amazon.com
:42:58. > :43:02.trying to replace Barnes and Noble. We are strong about it and as the
:43:02. > :43:06.report highlighted, we are in no way about replacing a physical
:43:07. > :43:11.expowerence, we are about trying to make it more powerful. The teachers
:43:12. > :43:16.who work with us and ups that, and we have been working with enits of
:43:16. > :43:20.thousands of classroom, close with many out here in the states and in
:43:20. > :43:27.the world. They feel more energised and what they got into the
:43:27. > :43:31.profession for. They feel they have finally time to break out of that
:43:31. > :43:35.factory model and this on day one and two. And adapt their strengths
:43:35. > :43:39.to the strengths of the students. wondered whether you would concede
:43:39. > :43:43.one of the biggest problems in education is children becoming
:43:43. > :43:52.demotivate. They think maths is hard, I can't do it, and then they
:43:52. > :44:02.go, C, DaE and down rather than up. How could this help them? You have
:44:02. > :44:03.
:44:03. > :44:09.hit the nail on had he. In all ga bra class you get -- algebra class
:44:09. > :44:12.you get that and people saying when do I have to put this down. And you
:44:12. > :44:16.don't see that in other classes because the students are
:44:16. > :44:19.fundamentally engaged. In math class they are feeling their self-
:44:19. > :44:23.esteem is being constantly bombarded. The reason they feel
:44:23. > :44:30.that way is they get through arithmetic, only understanding 80-
:44:30. > :44:34.90% of it. They are pushed into pre-algerbra is harder because they
:44:34. > :44:37.don't understand arithmetic, then they are pushed ray head and by the
:44:37. > :44:42.time they get to calculus they are not understanding anything at all.
:44:42. > :44:48.If you allow people of all levels to fill in the gaps and master
:44:48. > :44:53.concepted, before there is no chance to do it. In an algebra
:44:53. > :44:57.class you are afraid because you can't multiply decimals. Now you
:44:57. > :45:02.have your friends and the teacher there to help you. The teacher has
:45:02. > :45:06.tools to identify the gap. Whether you talk about affluent
:45:06. > :45:13.neighbourhoods, charter schools and independent schools, if you allowed
:45:13. > :45:17.those who fill in the gaps they can be accelerated. The rich/poor, also
:45:17. > :45:22.we have problems with sometimes malnourished kids who go to school
:45:22. > :45:26.hungry, or ones with troubled backgrounds. Does this not appeal
:45:26. > :45:32.more to those families who can afford them to have a lap stop toe
:45:32. > :45:36.look at this stuff? I think that is a major -- a lap stop to look at
:45:36. > :45:43.this stuff? I think that is a problem we are dependant on
:45:44. > :45:49.accessability. You have 75% here in access to the Internet. We hope the
:45:49. > :45:54.costs will get cheaper every day, we are right now, because it tend
:45:54. > :45:59.to be educated families who have access and know about us. We are
:45:59. > :46:03.being disproportion nationally used if, you can't give afterschool
:46:03. > :46:13.programmes in the inner city, it is powerful for them if not more so
:46:13. > :46:38.
:46:38. > :46:43.than for Bill Gat, he's children. That's all tonight, we loaf you
:46:43. > :46:53.with unique visualisation of flight paths around the globe created by a
:46:53. > :47:33.
:47:33. > :47:36.transport planner from the Good evening the weather is mixed
:47:36. > :47:41.over the next couple of days. We are keeping sunshine to the North
:47:41. > :47:46.West, parts of northern Ireland, western Scotland, cooler and
:47:46. > :47:51.cloudier along the east coast of Scotland with outbreaks of rain.
:47:51. > :47:57.Not affecting Northern Ireland, top temperatures 17-18. We could get a
:47:57. > :48:01.few degrees higher than that across western Scotland. Across the east
:48:01. > :48:06.coast cloudy, rain through Aberdeen, down towards Edinburgh, rain
:48:06. > :48:13.sitting across northern England and the risk of heavier downpours at
:48:13. > :48:16.the time. A little on the grey side for the south coast of Kent and
:48:16. > :48:23.Sussex. In Hampshire and Dorset they will start to break the cloud
:48:23. > :48:28.up. The rest of whales after a bright start will see the cloud
:48:28. > :48:32.increasing we might see the odd spot of rain to finish off the day.
:48:32. > :48:36.For Wednesday the North West will have the best of the sunshine. The
:48:36. > :48:39.east coast just 13 degrees. By the time we get to Thursday we are
:48:39. > :48:44.looking at some brighter skies across England and Wales, always