:00:15. > :00:20.Tonight, proof positive claims France, that the Assad Government
:00:20. > :00:24.has used nerve agent against its own citizens.
:00:24. > :00:28.TRANSLATION: The conclusion from the lab is clear, there is sarin
:00:28. > :00:34.gas. Well the other question is can we trace who has been using it. In
:00:34. > :00:38.one case there is no doubt it is the Syrian regime and its
:00:38. > :00:43.acomplises. As the Civil War deepens and the human rights abuses
:00:43. > :00:46.become ever clearer, is the west going to do more than express
:00:46. > :00:50.horror? We explore whether it might be time
:00:50. > :00:55.to re-think the whole basis of a state cobbled together during an
:00:55. > :01:01.imperial handover before most of us were even born.
:01:01. > :01:03.Also tonight, after the riots in Turkey, the Deputy Prime Minister
:01:03. > :01:08.says sorry for some of the police behaviour.
:01:08. > :01:14.There is no gas tonight but plenty of jubilation because the
:01:14. > :01:17.protestors in Taksim Square feel they might have made a breakthrough.
:01:17. > :01:21.And this...Sexually Transmitted infection spreading fast. It is not
:01:21. > :01:24.as if we haven't been warned, why are sexually transmitted infections
:01:24. > :01:34.on the rise again. We have one guest who writes about
:01:34. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :01:44.sex and one who deals with the consequences of it.
:01:44. > :01:49.Nerve gas has been used in Syria, the confirmation from the French
:01:49. > :01:52.Government came a few hours ago. Who used it and where hasn't been
:01:52. > :01:58.disclosed. But offences perpetrated against civilians and against
:01:58. > :02:03.children marks a new low in a Civil War which has left much of the
:02:03. > :02:08.world aghast, confused and frankly rather paralysed. Our diplomatic
:02:08. > :02:12.editor is here now. First off the French evidence? Well the Foreign
:02:12. > :02:15.Minister made this statement this evening that there had been several
:02:15. > :02:20.occasions where they said chemical weapons had been used. One where he
:02:20. > :02:24.said the evidence was strongly that the regime had done it. This is the
:02:24. > :02:30.key point, the direct accusation of the regime. It has not been done by
:02:30. > :02:35.the US and UK before, although they have hinted at it. This is he said
:02:35. > :02:40.later on TV. TRANSLATION: conclusion from the lab is clear,
:02:40. > :02:45.there is sarin gas, well the other question is can we trace who has
:02:45. > :02:51.been using it. In one case there is no doubt it is the Syrian regime
:02:51. > :02:56.and its acomplises. 7 He referred, as I say, to a few
:02:56. > :03:01.incidents, there was some where some Le Monde journalist brought
:03:01. > :03:06.back urine samples by people affected in Damascus. The evidence
:03:06. > :03:09.wasn't so conclusive there. The key evidence seems to be in the north
:03:09. > :03:12.in Idlib province. Interestingly this is an incident the BBC has
:03:12. > :03:16.highlighted before, and has actually shown footage of what was
:03:16. > :03:20.said to have happened there on that day. There was a helicopter passed
:03:20. > :03:26.over and something, it could be a cannister or a rocket was seen to
:03:26. > :03:30.be coming down and then people were badly affected, one died. They were
:03:30. > :03:33.taken to the nearby hospital where blood samples were taken, which we
:03:33. > :03:38.now know were then given to members of the French Intelligence Service
:03:38. > :03:42.a little later. That seems to be the core of the French argument,
:03:42. > :03:49.that this chain of evidence from the helicopter eyewitnesses, people,
:03:49. > :03:55.blood sample its, is what gives them this confidence. But it has to
:03:55. > :03:59.say it doesn't look like an air- tight case. They could not be the
:03:59. > :04:03.same people evacuated as were where the cannister landed. On the face
:04:03. > :04:06.of it, it looks like a big deal? clearly is a big deal if you feel
:04:06. > :04:10.the case has been proven. We all know that President Obama made
:04:10. > :04:15.these statements about red lines, warnings to the Syrian Government.
:04:15. > :04:17.Then, of course, a few weeks back when these claims of nerve gas use
:04:17. > :04:21.were first being made everybody said what are you going to do about
:04:21. > :04:25.it. The Americans said they didn't feel there was proof positive. And
:04:25. > :04:30.indeed tonight the White House spokesman said something similar,
:04:30. > :04:33.despite the French claims, that they still don't feel there is
:04:33. > :04:37.definitive proof of the regime doing so. Nobody, even the French
:04:37. > :04:43.are claiming that it has been done on anything other than a very small
:04:43. > :04:47.scale. All of the statements seem to be trying to set the terms for
:04:47. > :04:50.diplomacy. The French tonight said they are not going to do anything
:04:50. > :04:55.about this, despite their apparent certainty, because they want to
:04:55. > :04:59.empower the called Geneva II peace conference meant to happen in the
:04:59. > :05:03.coming few weeks, rather than scuppering it by taking some sort
:05:03. > :05:08.of action against Syria. The Americans claim a reluctance to get
:05:08. > :05:10.too heavily involved in this, and this is due to their desire to try
:05:11. > :05:15.to empower the diplomacy. This is the Geneva conference about what to
:05:15. > :05:19.do about Syria? It is a Geneva conference where they hope the
:05:19. > :05:23.parties will get together and agree a way to end the war and hand power
:05:23. > :05:28.to a transitional Government. UN also produced a report on Syria
:05:28. > :05:32.today didn't it. Parts of it made horrible reading, I thought?
:05:32. > :05:36.independent panel of investigators of human rights abuses on Syria
:05:37. > :05:42.made one of its periodic reports, on the chemicals they say they
:05:42. > :05:46.think both sides have used chemicals as weapons. Rather than
:05:46. > :05:51.chemical weapons, if you follow the distinction. They had shocking
:05:51. > :05:56.things about human rights abuses. They talked about a 12-year-old boy
:05:56. > :05:59.being asked by the rebels to behead a captured soldier. They talked
:05:59. > :06:04.about numerous instances of child soldiers on the rebel side. Overall
:06:04. > :06:11.they think the greater number of abuses were perpetrated by the
:06:11. > :06:16.regime. They are pushing for this Geneva II process.
:06:16. > :06:23.With us now is Vali Nasr, a member of the foreign advisory board for
:06:23. > :06:28.the state department, a Dean of the John Hopkins School of Advanced
:06:28. > :06:36.studies. How serious do you think this French proof of chemical
:06:36. > :06:40.weapons is? It is a way to raise the pressure on the Assad regime
:06:40. > :06:43.and underscore the gravity of the conflict. It is also designed to
:06:44. > :06:49.make sure that the United Nations report does not give a sense that
:06:49. > :06:53.blame for use of the chemicals is equally divided on both sides. This
:06:53. > :06:58.is largely a terrain that has been previously covered, in other words
:06:58. > :07:01.accusations have been made against the Syrian regime. Whether the
:07:01. > :07:05.United States or the international community is not ready or willing
:07:05. > :07:10.to see this as definitive proof and act according to the red lines it
:07:10. > :07:15.had laid down. What would your advice be to John Kerry, I know you
:07:15. > :07:24.speak to him frequent on these matters, what would your advice to
:07:24. > :07:28.him be? He has made a -- an of for the to push for a solution to the
:07:28. > :07:31.conflict. There is the Geneva conference scheduled. But actually
:07:31. > :07:35.the framework, the basis for it hasn't been done properly. We are
:07:35. > :07:40.going to this conflict with Assad and his Russian backers, Hezbollah
:07:40. > :07:45.and Iran, actually having the upper hand having scored a very clear
:07:45. > :07:48.underground military Vicry in the past two weeks. -- victory in the
:07:48. > :07:51.past two week. We don't have a clear co-ordinated position between
:07:51. > :08:00.the United States, Europe and the Arab allies. Also there is nothing
:08:00. > :08:03.on the table to hint to the Russians and the Assad regime that
:08:03. > :08:08.consequences to failure at the conference and something would
:08:08. > :08:11.happen if they were not to deliver at the conference. We are going
:08:11. > :08:15.into diplomacy without giving it teeth or a big stick to make it
:08:15. > :08:18.succeed. You seem to be suggesting it is very unlikely it will
:08:18. > :08:22.succeed? It will not succeed, largely because there is no
:08:22. > :08:26.incentive for the Russians or Assad to compromise at this point. They
:08:27. > :08:30.are winning on the ground. The rebels have got a setback and there
:08:30. > :08:34.is no consequences for not cutting a deal. I think we will go through
:08:34. > :08:37.the Geneva II process, it will not be productive. I think that coming
:08:37. > :08:44.out of that we have to basically sit down and think about where do
:08:44. > :08:48.we go from there. I think the path has to be to stop Assad's March on
:08:48. > :08:52.the ground by arming the rebels, giving greater capability to hold
:08:52. > :08:57.their positions, also to come up with both incentives and
:08:58. > :09:00.punishments for Russia and Syria if they don't engage in the diplomatic
:09:00. > :09:05.process effectively. I think a certain amount of time has to be
:09:05. > :09:09.invested to get the opposition in a position where it would be much
:09:09. > :09:12.more credible. To create greater harmony between the policies of
:09:12. > :09:16.Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Europe and the United States going forward.
:09:16. > :09:21.Thank you very much we will get back to you in a moment or two. In
:09:21. > :09:30.the meantime we are going to talk about something else.
:09:30. > :09:34.Coming up : Why are diseases like chlamydia and
:09:34. > :09:37.gonorrhoea proving so difficult to beat?
:09:37. > :09:44.Let's continue exploring what is happening in Syria. Because the
:09:44. > :09:48.uprising is often understood as being wholly sectarian. The ma
:09:48. > :09:58.Sunni Muslim population throwing -- majority Sunni population throwing
:09:58. > :10:08.off the Alawite Assad regime. There is a long and complex history, here
:10:08. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:13.is Mark Urban's analysis. Syria has for centuries been a
:10:13. > :10:18.country of complex relationships between sects, cities and tribes.
:10:18. > :10:28.Often they co-existed peacefully. But at times collided with extreme
:10:28. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:36.violence. The ottoman Turk ruled for centuries, offering -- the
:10:36. > :10:40.ottoman Turk ruled for centuries, offering peace for taxes. Many
:10:40. > :10:43.people ruled on behalf of the ottoman state. It worked well
:10:43. > :10:47.giving the religious communities a say over the sensitive issues of
:10:47. > :10:53.their personal status, how they got married, how they conducted their
:10:53. > :10:59.own laws, but made sure the tax went to the central Government's
:11:00. > :11:06.treasures. That deal between order and tax flow was the heart of the
:11:06. > :11:10.ottoman structure. A traveller in the 19th century noted three tiers
:11:10. > :11:15.of society, mainstream, Sunni Islamists uppermost, other groups,
:11:15. > :11:20.Christians and Jews, and then at the bottom members of the Islamic
:11:20. > :11:30.sects considered her particulars, including the Shia and Alawites.
:11:30. > :11:39.
:11:39. > :11:47.Both persecuted they worshiped in The Ottoman say the was by
:11:47. > :11:55.definition a Sunni state and did not recognise any of the other
:11:55. > :11:58.sects as Muslim. They were either Muslim or not. The ones recognised
:11:58. > :12:05.as non-Muslim were Christians and Jews. In a way the Christians and
:12:05. > :12:09.the Jews were better off than the small minority sects.
:12:09. > :12:14.The uglyist rivalries were often those within particular religions.
:12:14. > :12:24.The same traveller found poisonous relations between rival Catholic
:12:24. > :12:43.
:12:43. > :12:48.The Ottoman Turk took Syria in the early 16th century. But it had long
:12:48. > :12:52.been a meeting point of different cultures. The Ottoman system of
:12:52. > :12:58.rule of more recent centuries was geared to raising taxes and it was
:12:58. > :13:04.tolerant, indeed non-Muslims paid higher taxes. It left people with
:13:04. > :13:10.an intense sense of their own sect or ethnicity. That was to become a
:13:10. > :13:15.problem as the Ottoman system frayed.
:13:15. > :13:21.Under pressure from Christian countries in the late 1850s the
:13:21. > :13:26.Ottomans introduced measures aimed at giving equality to citizens. But
:13:26. > :13:31.this produced a backlash and terrible anti-Christian riots in
:13:31. > :13:36.Damascus in 1860. They were setting in motion tensions and troubles in
:13:36. > :13:42.the very balance of the social fabric of Damascus that burst into
:13:42. > :13:47.the most horrific violence in the summer of 1860 when Sunni Muslim
:13:47. > :13:52.crowds campaigned through the streets of the Christian quarters,
:13:52. > :13:56.massacring, looting, burning down houses and churches and monastries.
:13:56. > :14:02.The images, the photographs from the time show city quarters really
:14:02. > :14:08.that looked much like Dresden after the bombing of the Second World War.
:14:08. > :14:14.It was a moment of communal trauma that was to really mark Damascus in
:14:14. > :14:24.the mid-19th century. By the early 20th century one
:14:24. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:53.The empire of France covers many continents and many climates.
:14:53. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :14:58.Ottoman rule ended in 1919 when the British conquered the area, they
:14:58. > :15:02.handed to the French who faced challenges particularly from the
:15:02. > :15:06.Sunni majority. So the French favoured minorities such as the
:15:06. > :15:10.Alawites, Christians and Druzes in their security forces. The enemy
:15:10. > :15:13.for the French was the Sunni majority population and the idea of
:15:13. > :15:16.nationalism. And one of the first things the French tried to do was
:15:16. > :15:21.to break up the greater Syria they inhabited to create a Christian
:15:21. > :15:24.state in Lebanon. Within the mandate of Syria itself, their
:15:25. > :15:31.firgs vision was to create a mini- state for the all -- first vision
:15:31. > :15:35.was to create a mini-state for the Alawites and the Druzes, and
:15:35. > :15:42.territory around Damascus and Aleppo, and through divided rule
:15:42. > :15:46.they could create a a different Syria they could dominate.
:15:46. > :15:51.early post-mandate Governments were sur planted in 1963, military rule
:15:51. > :15:55.by members of the Ba'ath party. This group pan-Arab and secular
:15:55. > :15:59.served as an escalator for the minorities. It already gained a toe
:15:59. > :16:09.hold under the French. The loser of one power struggle among them
:16:09. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:22.Ahmed Saad's father emerged triumphant from these power
:16:22. > :16:26.struggles to become Syria's first Alawite President. The politic of
:16:26. > :16:32.this time were complex. He faced down Alawite rivals within the
:16:32. > :16:37.party and as well as having some Sunnis and others on his side.
:16:37. > :16:43.Ba'ath party ideology is a very home mojising and strong
:16:43. > :16:48.nationalist -- home mojising and strong nationalist ideology which
:16:48. > :16:51.breaks down the barriers of difference and gives minorities
:16:51. > :16:55.opportunities to get access to power. Some of these minorities
:16:55. > :17:03.were also encouraged in the colonial period to enter the army.
:17:03. > :17:11.That is how the Alawites in Syria were very prominent in the army.
:17:11. > :17:14.How the Assad clan and network came to prevent in the Ba'ath Party.
:17:14. > :17:22.But little by little the religious forces polarising across the Middle
:17:22. > :17:26.East were making themselves felt. In 1982 Sunnis in the Syrian city
:17:26. > :17:30.of Hama staged a rising that was brutally crushed. A kind of
:17:30. > :17:40.stability was reimposed and it lasted until the outbreak of the
:17:40. > :17:44.current revolution two years ago. With that game brutal repression,
:17:44. > :17:53.inflammatory rhetoric from some cleric, and an influx of foreign
:17:53. > :17:58.fighters on both sides. Memories of the Ba'athist hey day or
:17:58. > :18:00.cosmopolitan city life under the Ottomans caused many Syrians to
:18:00. > :18:06.insist it is not a sectarian society and this is not a sectarian
:18:06. > :18:11.war. But feelings of identity, of Sunni, Shia, Alawite or Christian
:18:11. > :18:21.are still important for much of the population. And are being played
:18:21. > :18:27.upon in this conflict. To this day the President of Syria will invoke,
:18:27. > :18:30.not his community, but his loyalty to the Syrian nation as what is
:18:31. > :18:34.triefg him in fighting the -- driving him in fighting the
:18:34. > :18:38.opposition. He is acting never in the interest of secretary and
:18:38. > :18:41.community, but to preserve the Syrian state and the people from
:18:41. > :18:45.the threat they face. They are still using that language and they
:18:45. > :18:50.still refuse to accept that secretary has any basis in the
:18:50. > :18:57.fighting going on in Syria today. As Syria's neighbours weigh in they
:18:57. > :19:04.are feeding sectarianism. The saud des and Qatar backing the Sunnis,
:19:04. > :19:11.Hezbollah on the side of Assad. On the ground, their slogan is
:19:11. > :19:19."find fertile soil". These Sunni fighters mock Hezbollah, party of
:19:19. > :19:29.good, as the party of Satan. -- party of God as the party of Satan.
:19:29. > :19:34.And the rhetoric of Jihad is being spoken of too. Millions have been
:19:34. > :19:44.displaced and the country's delicate tapsity of settlements has
:19:44. > :19:46.
:19:46. > :19:51.been ripped apart. We are ajoined by our guests, and one a cousin of
:19:51. > :19:55.Ahmed Saad. His father was widely held responsible for the repression
:19:55. > :20:02.of Hama where it was reported around 20,000 people died. Who do
:20:02. > :20:07.you speak for tonight? For the organisation Democracy and Freedom
:20:07. > :20:10.in Syria. How big is that?We have lots of supporters in Syria. I
:20:10. > :20:13.started the organisation before the Arab Spring, I have been
:20:13. > :20:18.campaigning for democracy for many years. How many members?We have
:20:18. > :20:24.millions of supporters in Syria. Millions, all registered
:20:24. > :20:29.supporters? Sorry.All register supporters? No, we know the
:20:29. > :20:31.supporters have been there for years. Is it your conviction that
:20:31. > :20:34.Syria can survive without collapsing into sectarianism?
:20:34. > :20:39.course, if people, if the international community really
:20:39. > :20:42.wants it and put their efforts together. Trying to you know find a
:20:42. > :20:46.solution, a peaceful solution to the conflict it is possible. Isn't
:20:46. > :20:50.that the problem that the thing was created by the international
:20:50. > :20:55.community and is now being played with by the international community,
:20:55. > :20:59.whether it is the west or Iran or whoever? Actually it is the will of
:20:59. > :21:05.the Syrian people isn't it that's at stake here? Exactly, as we have
:21:05. > :21:10.seen you know the uprise anything Syria has started peacefully. --
:21:10. > :21:14.uprising has been started peacefully in Syria, and hijacked
:21:14. > :21:19.by the Islamists and played by both sides. This is where we are today,
:21:19. > :21:22.we have 100,000 dead people and 1.5 million refugees. We have to find a
:21:22. > :21:27.solution right away. A peaceful solution is the only way out of
:21:27. > :21:30.this conflict. If not we are going to find ourselves in a regional war,
:21:30. > :21:35.all-out regional war. We have already seen what is going on in
:21:35. > :21:39.Lebanon and Iraq. We have seen the latest attack by Israel on Syria.
:21:39. > :21:48.This is very dangerous. Do you think that Syria is going to emerge
:21:48. > :21:51.from this conflict as one country still? Yes, potentially it could.
:21:52. > :21:56.It doesn't mean it will emerge as a happy country where everybody
:21:56. > :22:00.agrees with the outcome. We saw that happen in Iraq as well. It was
:22:00. > :22:05.a vicious sectarian Civil War but in the end it held together.
:22:05. > :22:12.Unfortunately right now Syria is in a place where you have a very
:22:12. > :22:16.serious division that puts one side of the population against the other.
:22:16. > :22:21.There is a sense of Syrian nationalism on both sides, both
:22:21. > :22:25.sides believe they represent Siria. Nobody is a seperatist and don't
:22:25. > :22:28.want to break out of Syria. Those are positive things. But if the
:22:29. > :22:32.fighting continues, more blood is shed and the divisions become
:22:32. > :22:36.deeper. You might at some point have the tipping point where this
:22:36. > :22:44.might become something different. Can you see any circumstances under
:22:44. > :22:48.which Ahmed Saad, he's your uncle. -- Bashar Assad, he's your uncle?
:22:48. > :22:53.My cousin. Do you think there are circumstances he could go without
:22:53. > :22:56.shedding more blood? If he could go he would have gone at the beginning,
:22:56. > :23:03.now it is very difficult. He will not go, he wouldn't be allowed to
:23:04. > :23:08.leave even if he wanted to. What do you mean he wouldn't be allowed to?
:23:08. > :23:13.Bashar al-Assad is not his father, he inherited that regime and didn't
:23:13. > :23:15.build it. The ones him are the ones sustaining the Ba'ath party and the
:23:15. > :23:20.Secret Services and the military, they are in control. A lot of
:23:20. > :23:24.people think it is a one-man show. I have always said it Bashar will
:23:24. > :23:29.always be held responsible because he's the head of the army and
:23:29. > :23:34.President of the Republic and head of the bait party. Behind the
:23:34. > :23:39.scenes the people -- Ba'ath Party, behind the scenes are the people in
:23:39. > :23:43.the military and the others in the Ba'ath Party. When you look at the
:23:43. > :23:51.troubled sectarian history of Syria, you do understand why the Assad
:23:51. > :23:55.regime was so vigorously and violently secular, don't you?
:23:55. > :24:00.Secularism is a facade under which you promote a sectarian regime.
:24:00. > :24:04.Just because you have secularism put out there doesn't mean that
:24:04. > :24:08.people practice it. Sectarianism is not about actually practising
:24:08. > :24:15.religion, it is about when your identity becomes a marker and
:24:15. > :24:18.decides your access to power and access to wealth. As we saw in Iraq,
:24:18. > :24:25.we saw in Syria, there is a division of power in the country
:24:25. > :24:29.that has very much become aligned with a sectarian identity. As the
:24:29. > :24:34.protestors try to change the regime there will be winners and there
:24:34. > :24:39.will be losers. A chunk of the population would see their share of
:24:39. > :24:43.power diminish, and the other chunk of the population on the outside is
:24:43. > :24:48.hopeful it will gain. That process in the Middle East has not been
:24:48. > :24:51.peaceful. The sharing and transfer of power has been con inflicting,
:24:52. > :24:55.that is what is happening in Syria. It is not about Assad. We saw in
:24:55. > :24:59.Iraq that we arrested and executed Saddam, the Sunnis continued to
:24:59. > :25:03.fight. They were not fighting for Saddam, they were fighting for
:25:03. > :25:06.their own power and privilege and fear of retribution by the Shi'ites.
:25:06. > :25:09.You have the same process here as well. You have already indicated
:25:09. > :25:13.you think it Geneva peace conference isn't going to go
:25:13. > :25:19.anywhere. In the meantime, you have got all these external actors like
:25:19. > :25:25.Iran, the gulf state, all manipulating particular factions
:25:25. > :25:31.within Syria, what will happen? is not just that they are
:25:31. > :25:37.manipulating this out of sport. They have vital things at stake in
:25:37. > :25:40.Syria. Depending on which side wins, it will depend on their only
:25:40. > :25:44.internal position and their position in the area. They are
:25:44. > :25:48.fight to go protect themselves. There is potential this will spread
:25:48. > :25:53.beyond Syria before long into Lebanon and Iraq. It will affect
:25:53. > :25:56.the balance of power in the Persian Gulf. As Syria becomes more violent,
:25:56. > :25:59.bloody, chemical weapons could be used. It could lead to a very
:26:00. > :26:03.different language of politics in the region which would not be
:26:03. > :26:05.beneficial to its long running stability or to global security for
:26:05. > :26:13.that matter. Thank you very much both of you
:26:13. > :26:15.indeed. The usual perpetrators of nods and
:26:15. > :26:19.winks in Downing Street were letting it be known today that the
:26:19. > :26:23.Government is going to try to bring in law to make it easier for voters
:26:23. > :26:29.to hold their MPs to account. It has been an urgent priority for
:26:30. > :26:37.years now. That is urgent as in "one fine day" if some other member
:26:37. > :26:42.of this august body gets caught with its trousers down or the hand
:26:42. > :26:49.in the sweetie jar. We're a bit baffled.
:26:49. > :26:54.It is one of those strange coincidences, in 1990 Arnold
:26:54. > :26:58.Schwarzenegger starred in a film called Total Recall, and 13 years
:26:58. > :27:03.later the Governor of California was recalled and Arnie was elected
:27:03. > :27:07.in his place. Perhaps they were reacting to a subliminal link in
:27:07. > :27:11.his words, that, sadly, must be a question for another day. The story
:27:11. > :27:15.for today is the Government has announced it will bring forward its
:27:15. > :27:20.recall legislation next year. The initial enthusiasm for the idea
:27:20. > :27:24.came during the expenses scandal. Rekindled in recent days by the
:27:24. > :27:29.lobbying scandal that has so gripped the head lions. Victory for
:27:29. > :27:33.people power, for those -- Headlines. Victory for people power,
:27:33. > :27:36.for those who believe they should have more control over their
:27:36. > :27:40.representatives. Except it is not clear the Government's version of
:27:40. > :27:45.recall will do any such things. Under the Government's plans as an
:27:45. > :27:49.MP I could join the BNP tomorrow, go on holiday for two years or
:27:49. > :27:52.decide not to turn up in parliament or say to hell with my
:27:52. > :27:57.constituencies, and I wouldn't qualify for recall under the
:27:57. > :28:01.Government's criteria. What people regard as underperformance by an MP
:28:01. > :28:05.this committee would overlook. That is a big point to make. Let's look
:28:05. > :28:11.at how recall works in other parts of the world, like California,
:28:11. > :28:17.let's call it the Total Recall Model. It is initiated by the
:28:17. > :28:22.electorate. There is a petition by them which if it reaches the
:28:22. > :28:26.required total of signatures it triggers a yes or no referendum on
:28:26. > :28:30.whether the politician should lose his or her job. That emphatically
:28:30. > :28:35.is not what the Government is proposing in this country. Their
:28:36. > :28:41.process would not be initiated by the electorate, nor would it
:28:41. > :28:51.feature a "back me or sack me" recall or not straight yes or no
:28:51. > :28:52.
:28:52. > :28:58.referendum. What are they proposing? Let's call this skup not
:28:58. > :29:02.quit -- the not quite total recall agenda. Anyone going to prison more
:29:02. > :29:05.than a year alreadyamically loses their seat, or it would be
:29:05. > :29:08.triggered by a resolution of the House of Commons in practice that
:29:08. > :29:14.would mean a resolution by the Standards Committee of MPs who
:29:14. > :29:20.would be making a recommendation. That would striinger a petition in
:29:20. > :29:25.the MP -- trigger a petition in the member's constituency. It would
:29:25. > :29:28.trigger a straight by-election. Zac Goldsmith believes this version of
:29:28. > :29:32.recall is not worthy of the name. If the Government mechanism goes
:29:32. > :29:36.ahead we will see an enormous amount of power being handed to the
:29:37. > :29:43.whips. These committees are made up of people put there by the whips.
:29:43. > :29:48.Independent MPs, maverick MPs won't stand a chance under the Government
:29:48. > :29:53.mechanism. It won't empower the voter but the political hierarchies,
:29:53. > :29:56.the parties. What is the response to these criticisms? As luck would
:29:57. > :30:00.have it, today the Deputy Prime Minister was explaining Zac
:30:00. > :30:03.Goldsmith in the Commons, just why in his view, recall, as it is
:30:03. > :30:07.understood in other countries, wouldn't be right for the UK.
:30:07. > :30:14.we are trying to do and it will be reflected in the final proposals is
:30:14. > :30:16.strike a balance. Is give voters, the public, a backstop reassurance
:30:16. > :30:23.that if someone commits serious wrongdoing and they are not held to
:30:23. > :30:27.account they can be held to account by the public. I equally think we
:30:27. > :30:35.shouldn't introduce a prososal that won a kangaroo court and a
:30:35. > :30:40.political free for all for people to take pot shots at each other.
:30:40. > :30:45.The issue with Californian recall system would it would become the
:30:45. > :30:50.weapon of all minorities. The scope is enormous, there are groups well
:30:50. > :30:54.organised and well sorted they would constantly be trying to
:30:54. > :30:58.remove the member of parliament elected by a large percentage of
:30:58. > :31:01.the electorate within that constituency. Yet this minority of
:31:02. > :31:05.people would be likely it say no, we want them out and our own
:31:05. > :31:09.candidate in. If that is the case wouldn't it have been better for
:31:09. > :31:14.the Government not to have prom my any sort of recall? Personally I
:31:14. > :31:17.think it would, actually. Some believe by promising recall, but
:31:17. > :31:22.actually not allowing voters to initiate the process, well the
:31:22. > :31:24.Government could end up causing more of the disillusion and
:31:24. > :31:30.disconnect with politics that the measure was supposed to address in
:31:30. > :31:34.the first place. Well now we have the report into the trouble in
:31:34. > :31:38.Turkey all wrong, the Turkish Deputy Prime Minister thinks much
:31:38. > :31:43.of the news coverage of the riots there has been overblown and
:31:43. > :31:48.distorted. But he conceded that the Istanbul police force had been out
:31:48. > :31:54.of order and overreacted to early protests which is what set off the
:31:54. > :32:00.unrest. He said the crackdown was wrong and unjust. The protests
:32:00. > :32:06.continued in ernest tonight as the Government tried to get talks going.
:32:06. > :32:12.We are ajoined from isstan pull by Paul Mason. Does it look like it is
:32:12. > :32:16.moving towards compromise? There is fighting going on in two towns in
:32:16. > :32:20.eastern Turkey, including Antakya where a 22-year-old demonstrator
:32:20. > :32:27.was shot dead with a gas cannister to the had had. Here, well you
:32:27. > :32:30.can't really see it behind me but there is jubilation in the park.
:32:30. > :32:35.Probably 10-30,000 people an hour ago when I was down there. They
:32:36. > :32:40.think they have made a breakthrough with the climb-down by the Deputy
:32:40. > :32:45.Prime Minister and the acknowledgement that the initial
:32:45. > :32:48.issue was just and the police overreacted. There is no doubt the
:32:48. > :32:53.Deputy Prime Minister has done that, because he as up against, as you
:32:53. > :32:58.can see in the pictures a large part of the urban middle-class in
:32:58. > :33:01.the city. No Government can survive with its legitimacy intact if it
:33:01. > :33:09.goes up against such a wide cross section of the population. Whether
:33:09. > :33:14.this leads to anything bigger politically is a different question.
:33:14. > :33:17.The people here are resigned to the fact that they are a minority
:33:17. > :33:21.politically. You have spent much of the day with people who belong to
:33:21. > :33:27.the majority in rural Turkey. Is that right? We drove about as far
:33:27. > :33:31.as you can get in a single day from Istanbul and went to the village
:33:31. > :33:36.where there were devout Muslims, a place where the man can't talk to a
:33:36. > :33:44.woman in the street, they bear veils. The people there are strong
:33:44. > :33:49.supporters are -- of the Government. They take their cue from the
:33:49. > :33:55.popular media, they are outraged by those drink anything a mosque that
:33:55. > :33:58.had been turned into a hospital. That has been rebutted by the Imam
:33:58. > :34:04.of the mosque. They don't see that on social media. There were calls
:34:04. > :34:08.for a massive breakdown, the mass base of the AK Party reflects what
:34:08. > :34:13.the deputy PM has done, they know they have to live in the same
:34:13. > :34:20.country as the largely secular urban educated people behind me.
:34:20. > :34:24.What are the protests achieving do you think? They haven't achieved
:34:24. > :34:29.victory yet. I spoke to people down there in the park. One said they
:34:29. > :34:32.were at fault, we ignored politics for too long, we have spoken up now.
:34:32. > :34:37.They said the half of society that is not Islamist is getting together
:34:37. > :34:42.to put forward an agenda that isn't the old agenda of the military, the
:34:42. > :34:47.old military crackdowns and the secular military state that used to
:34:47. > :34:55.run Turkey. There is something new happening here. This is what we saw
:34:55. > :34:57.in Tahrir Square, it is what we saw in the Occupy Movement, it is the
:34:57. > :35:01.urban educated middle-class deciding their agenda. Whatever
:35:01. > :35:04.kind of Government we see them up against in the world, they go on
:35:04. > :35:09.the streets and get some of it achieved. All kicking off
:35:09. > :35:14.everywhere, isn't it, thank you. Safe sex, everyone's at it, aren't
:35:14. > :35:19.they? No, figures are expected to be relyed tomorrow showing
:35:19. > :35:23.significant increases in all sorts of sexually transmitted diseases.
:35:23. > :35:27.It seems whilst everyone has become increasingly aware of the dangers
:35:27. > :35:36.of HIV and AIDS they have forgotten about other infections around for
:35:36. > :35:42.much longer, and whose effects are, it seems, increase league virulant.
:35:42. > :35:45.-- increasingly virulant. Numbers of sexual infections from
:35:45. > :35:50.gonorrhoea to genital warts have been on the rise year on year. Some
:35:50. > :35:53.of it is down to us getting better at testing and diagnosing. But for
:35:53. > :35:58.public health experts the numbers show too many people are putting
:35:58. > :36:03.themselves at risk. So what's going wrong? Last year in particular we
:36:03. > :36:07.saw a 25% increase in gonorrhoea rates, and we think that gonorrhoea
:36:07. > :36:11.will be well up again this year. We expect to see rises in most of the
:36:11. > :36:17.other areas. The rises are particularly in young people of all
:36:17. > :36:23.sexualities and in gay men of all ages. There are definitely some
:36:23. > :36:30.groups more at risk of poor sexual health than others. Gonorrhoea is
:36:30. > :36:35.the second most common sexually transmitted disease. New cases rose
:36:35. > :36:39.to 21,000 jumping 2% in one year last year. Over a third of the
:36:39. > :36:44.cases were men who had sex with men, up from around a quarter in 2010.
:36:44. > :36:48.The big concern is untreatable gonorrhoea. Infections that resist
:36:48. > :36:53.antibiotics. Doctors are having to think of new approaches for the
:36:53. > :36:58.future. Possibly even using more than one antibiotic at a time. This
:36:58. > :37:03.is controversial. At the moment every few years we are changing to
:37:03. > :37:09.a stronger dose or a new type of antibiotic. In recent years we have
:37:09. > :37:14.got to the end of that line in terms of the antibiotics we are
:37:14. > :37:18.using. We are seeing reduced susceptibility when we test the
:37:18. > :37:22.gonorrhoea we grow in the laboratory. We are not seeing main
:37:22. > :37:25.treatment failures, but if the past is anything to go by we will see
:37:25. > :37:31.treatment failures in the future. The message should be a familiar
:37:31. > :37:36.one, that using condoms and going for regular check-ups helps bring
:37:36. > :37:40.down infections and catches them early enough to to not go on to
:37:41. > :37:44.threaten fertility. It is young people under the age of 25 who are
:37:44. > :37:48.experiencing the highest rates of sexual infection. The message about
:37:48. > :37:53.safer sex is not getting through. Many people think sexual infections
:37:53. > :37:58.happen to somebody else. Experts fear an element of complacency,
:37:58. > :38:01.they also say there needs to be a change in emphasis in sex education.
:38:01. > :38:05.Young people aged 24 and under are having half the sex out there, and
:38:05. > :38:10.half of the partner exchange. We need to do better and relationships
:38:10. > :38:13.education with young people. They need to learn not how to put a
:38:13. > :38:19.condom on the banana, but how to have better relationships and how
:38:20. > :38:24.to say I'm not doing that unless you wear a condom and I'm not doing
:38:24. > :38:29.it because I'm not ready yet. Government ads in the past have
:38:29. > :38:33.been pretty full on. Campaigners say what is needed now is not so
:38:33. > :38:37.much this broad brush approach, but local low- based community serves
:38:38. > :38:40.that target clubs, pubs and football matches. This all costs
:38:40. > :38:49.money at a time when local authority budgets are under
:38:49. > :38:54.increasing pressure. Here with us now is my guests.
:38:54. > :39:00.A health service provider and Helen Croydon who described her own
:39:00. > :39:03.sexual escapades with older men and others in her book Sugar Daddy
:39:03. > :39:07.Diaries. Does what was talked about in this report tally with your
:39:07. > :39:10.experience in the clinics? Yes very much so. I think you know I haven't
:39:10. > :39:14.seen the figures coming out tomorrow but I wouldn't be at all
:39:14. > :39:19.surprised if they didn't show an increase. Some of that I would say
:39:19. > :39:23.is down to real efforts to get people diagnosed and tested. So
:39:23. > :39:29.that the national chlamydia screening programme, for example,
:39:29. > :39:35.has been really pushing hard to diagnose all of those young people.
:39:35. > :39:38.One in nine of have chlamydia. may not be that it is increasing
:39:38. > :39:42.but many people are reporting it? It might be people are diagnosing
:39:42. > :39:46.it. With something like clam mid-ia, it is a fairly new programme,
:39:46. > :39:49.running for two or three years now. You have to test about a third of
:39:49. > :39:52.the population that you are targeting to drive down underlying
:39:52. > :39:56.prevalence. They are not there yet. You would see the numbers come up
:39:56. > :40:02.before they start to come down. I'm not being complacent in saying
:40:02. > :40:05.there is no unsafe sex happening. Clearly from that report,
:40:05. > :40:10.anecdotally at least, Helen tell us about this, people's behaviour has
:40:10. > :40:14.changed hasn't it? I don't think it has, actually. I certainly think we
:40:14. > :40:18.are exposed to more sex in the media. The Internet and I certainly
:40:18. > :40:23.think that people are being exposed to it younger. I don't think we're
:40:23. > :40:28.doing it any more than we ever have. We are quite a promiscuous race,
:40:28. > :40:37.you only have to look fill landering through history of
:40:37. > :40:44.Monarchs through history, free love in the 1960s. Sexual behaviour, but
:40:44. > :40:50.sexual hygiene and etiquette, the use of condoms or barrier methods
:40:50. > :40:56.of contraception, protective methods of contraception seems to
:40:56. > :41:01.be changing? I can't speak for more people are using more contra
:41:01. > :41:04.sefptives now. Perhaps they are, if that is the case then definitely we
:41:04. > :41:08.need to do more to get the message through. I don't think the problem
:41:08. > :41:11.lies in the fact that people are having more sex or are more exposed
:41:11. > :41:15.to sex, that has always been the case. It definitely appears the
:41:15. > :41:21.message isn't getting through, we have to look at why. When I grew up,
:41:21. > :41:26.I'm in my 30s now, I know that any sexual encounters I have ever had
:41:26. > :41:31.with people my own age the he have idea that you wouldn't use a condom
:41:31. > :41:35.with a new partner is pretty much unheard of. My age group really
:41:35. > :41:38.have that message drummed in hard. It seems to me when you get to the
:41:38. > :41:43.older generation, I know that from experiences of writing my book
:41:43. > :41:47.about dating older men. There seems to be more people, more men that
:41:47. > :41:51.try and dodge condoms. You said when you were with an older man he
:41:51. > :41:55.didn't want to wear a condom? happened a couple of times. It
:41:55. > :42:00.appears to be happening with younger people as well. You think
:42:00. > :42:04.why is that safe message that got through to my generation and didn't
:42:04. > :42:09.in older generations. What is your they arey from talking to people?
:42:09. > :42:13.think, I hear a variety of things. The big missing piece in the jigsaw
:42:13. > :42:17.is not making all young people have access to good relationships and
:42:17. > :42:20.sex education. So that they are growing up and they understand
:42:20. > :42:24.about having healthy relationships and respect for themselves and
:42:24. > :42:29.their partners and everybody else. That is a big piece of the jigsaw
:42:29. > :42:34.missing. I think also people don't realise that half a million STIs
:42:34. > :42:38.diagnosed, the infections doiing nosed, you are far more likely to
:42:38. > :42:43.bump -- diagnosed, you are far more likely to bump into an infection
:42:43. > :42:46.now if you don't wear condoms that 20 years ago. People in your line
:42:46. > :42:50.of work always talk about people learning to respect themselves and
:42:50. > :42:53.the rest of it. The fact is one night stands are always going to
:42:53. > :42:57.happen, you say there is a bigger pool of potential infection out
:42:57. > :43:01.there than there was. If people are behaving differently and not using
:43:01. > :43:05.condoms, as Helen said they used to take it as a matter of course you
:43:05. > :43:08.would wear a condom, if they are not doing that now what is
:43:08. > :43:11.happening. Why are they behaving like that? I think it is really
:43:11. > :43:16.great. The campaign you were showing earlier, the Government
:43:16. > :43:19.campaign that ran a few years ago it is really good to see those
:43:19. > :43:25.campaigns. That one didn't mention HIV, which you could say is a
:43:25. > :43:30.misopportunity. You have to keep it up. It is no good having the
:43:30. > :43:34.Tombstone campaign, it was 20 years ago, there are a lot of parents out
:43:34. > :43:37.there with teenage children with different perspectives. In those
:43:38. > :43:42.days that campaign you talked about, everybody remembers it, the
:43:42. > :43:46.tombstone falling over and there is a great menace out there, they
:43:46. > :43:50.thought they would die if they got HIV/AIDS.
:43:50. > :43:54.Now things are slightly different. But is it that they don't, because
:43:54. > :43:57.they thought they could have died, they have forgotten about other
:43:57. > :44:00.infections? It is interesting to looking at what happened to
:44:00. > :44:05.infections after that campaign aired. The rates had been steadily
:44:05. > :44:12.rising as they do. That campaign aired and they dropped off a cliff.
:44:12. > :44:16.But they slowly but surely rose again because you can't keep people
:44:16. > :44:22.scared for long periods of time and you shouldn't be. What do you
:44:22. > :44:28.think? I would like men to be willing to wear condoms more full
:44:28. > :44:32.stop. Condoms are the only ones that stops sexually transmitted
:44:32. > :44:38.diseases. It is the only contraception that is detremental,
:44:38. > :44:43.it is alleged, to men's pleasure. All other forms of contraception
:44:43. > :44:46.involves the woman making a sacrifice. Lots of women have a
:44:46. > :44:55.reaction to hormonal contraception. Even in long-term relationships
:44:55. > :44:58.there seems to be a reluctance for men to use condoms full stop.
:44:58. > :45:01.Because they say it affects their pleasure. That is why I think it is
:45:01. > :45:05.really important that we get the message across to women to put
:45:05. > :45:11.their foot down. You talk about sleeping with older men and they
:45:11. > :45:17.were the ones reluctant to use a condom. Maybe they were older men
:45:17. > :45:21.who spent a long married life that started perhaps before the whole
:45:21. > :45:24.AIDS scare and they never got into the habit of it? The last time they
:45:24. > :45:29.used a condom was before they were improved and they were probably
:45:29. > :45:34.right in thinking that it did disrupt their sexual pleasure. But
:45:34. > :45:39.condoms are a lot more than that. I do think as well as educating women
:45:40. > :45:44.and men to use condom, we also need to educate women particularly to be
:45:44. > :45:50.a bit more assertive, particularly because a lot of younger women do
:45:50. > :45:54.sleep with slightly older, even older boyfriends. And they may get
:45:54. > :45:57.a little bit easily led. We just have to let them know it is OK to
:45:57. > :46:02.say no and say go to the sexual health clinic, I'm not sleeping
:46:02. > :46:05.with you until you do. I think a lot of women are scared of doing
:46:05. > :46:10.that. Given how rigorous you are about
:46:10. > :46:18.other things you put in your body it is rather extraordinary, lack of
:46:18. > :46:23.as if todayousness? I think -- as if todayousness I think what we
:46:23. > :46:28.have to do is go to the clinic, if you are going for contraceptives
:46:28. > :46:33.let's offer a range of STI tests as well, so people aren't expected to
:46:33. > :46:37.make two or three different appointments to get different
:46:37. > :46:47.appointments, pull it all together. That is all we have time for
:46:47. > :46:51.
:46:51. > :46:55.That is all we have time for tonight. See you tomorrow.
:46:55. > :46:58.Hello again, cloud from the North Sea now. For many central and
:46:58. > :47:03.eastern areas tomorrow starts off grey but the low cloud will thin
:47:03. > :47:07.and lift and get burned back towards the coastal areas. Sunny
:47:07. > :47:11.spells developing widely. One or two showers for Northern Ireland.
:47:11. > :47:14.Belfast dry because of an easterly breeze, the showers to the western
:47:14. > :47:19.side of Northern Ireland. A few more showers in Scotland. Most over
:47:19. > :47:23.the hills and mountains, it may stay dry through the central
:47:23. > :47:28.lowlands. Across England and Wales it will be cooler where the cloud
:47:28. > :47:32.persists around the North Sea coasts from Norfolk northwards. The
:47:32. > :47:37.wind won't be as strong today. While many places will enjoy a good