:00:13. > :00:17.The question was should I lead it through privatisation, or did the
:00:17. > :00:21.board want to find someone else to do that? The answer was someone
:00:21. > :00:30.else. So the boss of the Royal Bank of Scotland is stepping down. What
:00:30. > :00:33.next for the bank we own? Are we rushing to privatise? We hear the
:00:34. > :00:43.voices of the dead in the Bangladesh factory collapse, the
:00:44. > :00:56.
:00:56. > :01:00.day before the disaster. They spoke After five years of deliberation
:01:00. > :01:03.and millions of pounds spent, the National Health Service still can't
:01:03. > :01:08.decide what to do to improve the care of children having heart
:01:08. > :01:17.surgery. We will hear from both sides of what is now a very heated
:01:17. > :01:23.debate. And never mind Greece and Cyprus,
:01:23. > :01:33.what if Germany ditched the eurozone? This man has started a
:01:33. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:40.new political party in Germany to get out of the euro.
:01:40. > :01:43.Thank you and good night. The man hired to restore the standing of
:01:43. > :01:47.Royal Bank of Scotland. The once functioning bank which the taxpayer
:01:47. > :01:52.has the dubious pleasure of owning most of is off. Leaving, stepping
:01:52. > :01:56.down, moving on, pastures new, time for a fresh challenge. All the
:01:56. > :02:00.usual talk was dispensed this evening as Stephen Hester, the
:02:00. > :02:05.chief executive, disclosed he's loaf. The official line is his work
:02:05. > :02:09.is done and the bank wants someone else to take things on from here.
:02:09. > :02:14.But our Economics Editor is here, Paul Mason. What sort of job has he
:02:14. > :02:20.done? In October 2008 and February 2009 the Government had to
:02:20. > :02:25.nationalise RBS to stop the economy collapsing. Its other big obsession
:02:25. > :02:29.at the time was to not own or control a bank. So no real
:02:29. > :02:34.nationalisation but it bought 80- odd per cent of the bank. It paid
:02:34. > :02:38.therefore over the odds of what it could have paid had it just seized
:02:38. > :02:42.the bank at its lowest ebb. And Hester comes in to run it in such a
:02:42. > :02:47.way that eventually it would be sold. The original plan is you are
:02:47. > :02:50.in it as a global, pin-stripe wheeler dealer bank with an
:02:50. > :02:53.investment arm and US arm and eventually everything goes right.
:02:53. > :02:57.The problem was, first of all the economy was worse than they
:02:57. > :03:01.expected and it carried on being worse than they expected. Banking
:03:01. > :03:05.regulation was tougher than I think Labour expected it to be. Tougher
:03:05. > :03:09.than they originally proposed. He has ended up with a bank that
:03:09. > :03:14.instead of growing and reviving as a big bank has had to be broken
:03:14. > :03:21.down and shrunk down and bits of it are being sold off. Was he sacked?
:03:21. > :03:28.He wasn't sacked but he was sort of carrys, paper bag and off you go. I
:03:28. > :03:34.think is the tradition in the city. George Osborne thinks this bank can
:03:34. > :03:39.be privatised before the election. The chairman, Sir Philip Hampton
:03:39. > :03:45.thinks it can be privatised before the election. Hester has had to put
:03:45. > :03:50.in with all political interference, Vince Cable chipping in saying lend
:03:50. > :03:54.to SMEs, and others chipping in saying don't lend. The idea this is
:03:54. > :03:58.a dead-cert that can be sold without losing money, in his
:03:58. > :04:02.statement tonight he gave an interview to my clog earlier, see
:04:03. > :04:07.what you think -- colleague earlier, see what you think, I don't think
:04:07. > :04:13.he's as convinced as others. believe RBS will be privatiseable
:04:13. > :04:19.then, in the sense that it will have cleaned the bank up and
:04:19. > :04:27.predictable and so forth. Share prices, who knows? If the key to
:04:27. > :04:31.privatisation is share price A or B that is harder to predict. The
:04:31. > :04:41.clean-up job, the restructuring of the the normal bank that is mostly
:04:41. > :04:43.
:04:43. > :04:47.delivered already. What are the options? A popular idea, not at the
:04:47. > :04:51.Treasury, is you sell it off, the good parts and the bad parts, the
:04:51. > :04:57.Government sticks with the bad parts, same as Northern Rock. That
:04:57. > :05:00.option is less and less likely if George Osborne apoints somebody who
:05:01. > :05:04.believes like he does that the bank can be sold quickly. The problem,
:05:04. > :05:07.however, while getting rid of somebody who was a bit sceptical
:05:07. > :05:11.and didn't like the interference, the problem is this, to sell a bank
:05:11. > :05:15.you have to have a guy standing there and saying guy this and
:05:15. > :05:20.maximise the profits for the child -- buy this and maximise the
:05:20. > :05:23.profits for the shareholder, us the taxpayer. Once you you have done
:05:23. > :05:27.that you have to represent the new shareholders, those who have bought
:05:27. > :05:30.the shares. It is not so much conflict of interest, but conflict
:05:30. > :05:34.of emphasis might have been better handled if one guy had sold the
:05:35. > :05:43.bank and another guy runs it after sale. The analysts will now have a
:05:43. > :05:47.very good look, if you have chairman/boss, George Osborne, and
:05:47. > :05:51.CEO lining up to say buy this bank it is a great deal for the taxpayer,
:05:51. > :05:57.the analysts will have a good at this, especially when we know who
:05:57. > :06:01.it is. Lord Myners, who was City Minister when Stephen Hester was
:06:01. > :06:07.appointed chief executive at RBS, he's also here. What do you think,
:06:07. > :06:11.was he sacked? I think that the pressure, the Treasury were
:06:11. > :06:16.imposing on the board of RBS made Stephen Hester's position close to
:06:16. > :06:21.impossible. He has made it very clear he didn't really want to go
:06:21. > :06:27.now. He is going because the board has said he should go. I think they
:06:27. > :06:32.are doing the bidding of George Osborne? So George Osborne said
:06:32. > :06:35.time this chap slung his hook? George Osborne has been
:06:35. > :06:38.increasingly at odds with Stephen Hester over the management of the
:06:38. > :06:41.bank. He has been interfering and talking about the need to close
:06:41. > :06:46.down the investment banking side, get out of the American business.
:06:46. > :06:51.Drawing, of course, on his huge experience as a businessman. Just
:06:51. > :06:54.pointing out for the benefit of the audience you are being sarcastic?
:06:54. > :06:59.am. One of the problems in Government when it comes to making
:06:59. > :07:03.decision about -- decisions about business is the lack of
:07:03. > :07:06.understanding. Hester has done extremely good job against a very
:07:06. > :07:09.demanding agenda. He has performed extremely well for the owners of
:07:09. > :07:16.the bank, for the tax-payers, and the taiblt of the banking system.
:07:16. > :07:20.It is possible he has just lost any stomach for the fight? If lost
:07:20. > :07:24.stomach for the fight he wouldn't have given an interview to the
:07:24. > :07:29.Financial Times saying he was up for the fight and looking forward
:07:29. > :07:32.to staying on for the period post- privatisation. At the end of last
:07:32. > :07:36.week I believe Stephen Hester had to idea he was going. Interestingly
:07:36. > :07:40.the press are reporting that Sir Philip Hampton, the chairman of RBS
:07:40. > :07:45.was ringing potentially candidates for the job last week. This was all
:07:46. > :07:50.going on behind Stephen Hester's back. The board of RBS is going to
:07:50. > :07:55.have to answer some serious questions about what role it plays.
:07:55. > :07:58.If it is simply doing what George Osborne tells them it is not
:07:58. > :08:01.performing as a responsible board representing the interests of all
:08:01. > :08:07.shareholders. Why not?Because their job is to make a decision
:08:07. > :08:12.about the management of the bank in the interests. It is the taxpayer?
:08:12. > :08:15.The taxpayer is one very large shareholder. 81%, that is a
:08:15. > :08:19.controlling share? It is a controlling share, but there is
:08:19. > :08:23.also �12 billion worth of equity held by people's pension funds and
:08:23. > :08:29.insurance policies. The board of directors is charged under law with
:08:29. > :08:33.making obtdive decisions, taking into account -- objective decisions,
:08:33. > :08:37.taking into account the express wishes of shareholders, not doing
:08:37. > :08:40.what George Osborne tells them to do. This is an unstable bank. It
:08:40. > :08:44.will lose its chief executive this year, its Finance Director this
:08:44. > :08:48.year, its head of retail banking and investment banking and the head
:08:48. > :08:54.of the American business, there is something deeply wrong in the
:08:54. > :08:58.senior management team of RBS. it worth a buying spree then?
:08:58. > :09:02.knows. We won't answer questions about budgets until you get to
:09:02. > :09:07.general elections. Who knows where the market may be in 12 months time.
:09:07. > :09:11.I think George Osborne has a political eye on a give away of
:09:11. > :09:15.bank shares, possibly to a broad audience, but particularly to his
:09:15. > :09:20.wealthy chums, high tax-payers in the city. Come along, this is
:09:20. > :09:24.really cheap? It is not cheap, we will see what happens. He might
:09:24. > :09:28.make a general offering to the public. He might be like Sid in
:09:28. > :09:32.British Gas? He might give the shares away, it is highly unlikely.
:09:32. > :09:41.He's much more likely to give the shares to those who have the money,
:09:41. > :09:44.not those struggling to make ends meet on very low incomes. This is
:09:44. > :09:47.another policy to encourage a warm feeling among natural supporters
:09:47. > :09:51.ahead of the general election. just trying to recover from the
:09:51. > :09:56.fact that you paid too much money for it? We put sufficient money
:09:56. > :10:00.into the banks to ensure it had adequate capital so depositors were
:10:00. > :10:04.not at risk. That is the key thing we did. We took action to protect
:10:04. > :10:06.the banking system. In hindsight one might have done things
:10:06. > :10:11.differently. At the time we achieved what we set out to do.
:10:11. > :10:15.would have done things differently? The Lloyd's share price is already
:10:15. > :10:17.above the price we paid. In due course RBS share price will be,
:10:17. > :10:21.whether that will happen ahead of the general election, who knows?
:10:21. > :10:24.There is no need for him to give it away then, if the share price is
:10:24. > :10:34.going to go that high? That is one of the big questions that needs to
:10:34. > :10:38.be asked. Clearly UKFI does not believe it is the right to sell the
:10:38. > :10:40.shares because it has not given the Government that advice. What about
:10:40. > :10:44.Stephen Hester's argument that it needs somebody else to take things
:10:44. > :10:50.on, he has done all the awful hard work. He used twice in his
:10:50. > :10:54.statement at RBS, he used the expression of "being in the trench"
:10:54. > :10:57.which suggests it is a horrible environment and all that is over
:10:57. > :11:00.now and it needs someone else? is a valid argument. But if you
:11:00. > :11:05.look at what he said, he said I didn't want to go now it is the
:11:05. > :11:09.board's decision. I think there is some putting together of credible
:11:09. > :11:13.arguments to make what appears to have happened, I think in quite a
:11:13. > :11:20.rush over the last couple of days, look as though it is more rational
:11:20. > :11:28.and carefully thought through. Now at 9.00am on the 24th of April
:11:28. > :11:34.this year an eight storey building in Bangladesh collapsed. Over 100
:11:34. > :11:39.dead, most of them making clothe -- 1100 dead, most of them making
:11:39. > :11:43.clothes for the west. This wasn't a tragedy without warning, far from
:11:43. > :11:47.it. Workers had been complaining about cracks in the building for
:11:47. > :11:50.weeks. The day before it collapsed there was even a formal safety
:11:50. > :12:00.inspection. Our reporter has been back to learn what happened that
:12:00. > :12:04.day. The entire world watched in horror
:12:04. > :12:07.whilst the Rana Plaza disaster unfolded. What they didn't know was
:12:07. > :12:11.just the day before the police and local authorities had closed down
:12:11. > :12:21.the building, saying it was too dangerous to work there. If the
:12:21. > :12:26.
:12:26. > :12:29.building had remained closed, this tragedy would never have happened.
:12:29. > :12:35.For weeks the workers had been complaining about cracks in the
:12:35. > :12:39.building. Finally on the 23rd of April, less than 24 hours before it
:12:39. > :12:43.collapsed the police, engineers and members of the industry trade
:12:43. > :12:50.organisation came to inspect the building. They immediately
:12:51. > :12:59.evacuated everyone and shut it down. That day journalists Greg
:12:59. > :13:09.Mulholland filmed a report on theically -- filmed a report on the
:13:09. > :13:29.
:13:29. > :13:33.local television. It has never been How do you feel when you see this
:13:33. > :13:43.footage and you had spoken to all these people who didn't want to go
:13:43. > :14:12.
:14:12. > :14:22.into the factory the day before and He got the last interview with a
:14:22. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:47.some what agitated Sohel Rana, the Sohel Rana had strong local
:14:47. > :14:50.political connections and he used them. Realising that if the
:14:50. > :14:54.building was closed he would lose a fortune in urgent foreign orders,
:14:54. > :14:59.it is believed that he persuaded someone to unlook the doors. On the
:14:59. > :15:02.next day the 24th of April the factories were open for business.
:15:02. > :15:12.The workers were frightened about going back inside the building, but
:15:12. > :15:30.
:15:30. > :15:34.they were more scared about losing At 9.00am on the 24th of April the
:15:34. > :15:44.electricity stopped. That is nothing uncommon, as usual the
:15:44. > :15:44.
:15:44. > :16:28.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds
:16:28. > :16:32.generator kicked in. That's when I reached around two minutes short
:16:32. > :16:39.of 9.20 to the Rana Plaza. The building collapsed like a pancake,
:16:39. > :16:44.you know. Standing at this building site, you get a sense of the scale
:16:44. > :16:54.of this tragedy. Walking on top of people's saris, and tissues and
:16:54. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :17:37.It is impossible to rescue without the help of common volunteers and
:17:37. > :17:47.local people. They came initially with love for their own brothers,
:17:47. > :17:47.
:17:47. > :17:57.sisters, mothers who were inside. One of those was this man nearby, a
:17:57. > :17:57.
:17:57. > :19:03.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds
:19:03. > :19:06.slight man, he was able to get into He amputated Anna's right hand with
:19:06. > :19:12.a hacksaw because the attending doctors were too frightened to go
:19:12. > :19:17.into the ruins. He saved 34 lives and amputated in total three limbs.
:19:17. > :19:22.According to him more than 200 people lost their limbs in the Rana
:19:22. > :19:32.Plaza collapse. To get out Reshma Begum had to have both legs
:19:32. > :20:07.
:20:07. > :20:13.Just as the authorities were about to give up hope of finding anyone
:20:13. > :20:17.else alive, on the 17th day after the collapse, someone heard a sound.
:20:17. > :20:22.Trapped deep down inside the building and surrounded by rubble,
:20:22. > :20:32.Reshma Begum was clinged on to life. She had survived on water and a few
:20:32. > :20:32.
:20:32. > :21:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds
:21:37. > :21:41.She was perhaps hours away from adding to the death toll of 1,230.
:21:41. > :21:45.Families are now being promised over $10,000 for each victim and
:21:45. > :21:50.are being looked after in a modern private hospital. Government
:21:50. > :21:54.engineers claim that 60% of factories are unsafe. Seven
:21:54. > :22:02.building inspectors have now been sacked, including those responsible
:22:02. > :22:07.for Rana Plaza. I checked out a few local buildings to see what was
:22:07. > :22:12.happening. Some factories like this one were closed down days after
:22:12. > :22:15.Rana Plaza. Here at this bench someone was working away, it seems
:22:16. > :22:19.like as soon as it was announced that this building was unsafe to
:22:19. > :22:24.work in, they left immediately and we can see some of their unfinished
:22:24. > :22:32.work and some of the things that were completed. The workers here
:22:32. > :22:36.have no idea when they can come back to work. I'm about to go into
:22:36. > :22:41.a factory that the unions are very concerned about. They are concerned
:22:41. > :22:44.about the working conditions and the safety. On top of that, this
:22:44. > :22:49.yellow sign here says that everyone in this building should be
:22:49. > :22:59.evacuated, because the building has cracks in it and poses a risk to
:22:59. > :23:02.workers and anyone else entering. Imagine my is surprise on
:23:02. > :23:09.discovering over 350 people working there. Their manager wanted to know
:23:09. > :23:18.I was on his shop floor. Why does the sign outside say "do not enter
:23:18. > :23:28.this building it is risky, it has cracks in it"? Who?The yellow sign
:23:28. > :23:45.
:23:45. > :23:51.As I left my heart sank with the feeling that the Rana Plaza tragedy
:23:51. > :23:56.could so easily happen again. Could these people be the next
:23:56. > :24:00.casualties? The insatible appetite in the west for cheap clothing and
:24:00. > :24:04.the vast profits to be made in Bangladesh means we cannot be sure
:24:04. > :24:08.that there won't be more owners turning a blind eye to health and
:24:08. > :24:12.safety conditions. On the international level 38 western
:24:12. > :24:19.companies like Zara and Primark have signed an agreement to improve
:24:19. > :24:23.local safety conditions. However 15 American companies, including Wal-
:24:23. > :24:32.Mart and Gap have refused to join in, they say they are pursuing
:24:32. > :24:35.their own safety checks. That was �6 million well spent. It
:24:35. > :24:39.emerged today that the National Health Service has wasted five
:24:39. > :24:42.years failing to settle the question of whether operation on
:24:42. > :24:47.children's hearts ought to be concentrated in fewer hospitals. It
:24:47. > :24:51.is not so much they are going back to the drawing board as they have
:24:51. > :24:56.discovered they have never left it. This as one part of the publicly
:24:56. > :25:01.funded health service involve another part of the publicly-funded
:25:01. > :25:06.health service in a publicly-funded court. For those campaigning to
:25:06. > :25:10.keep their local units, today brought a welcome reprieve. Some
:25:10. > :25:13.are parents, they are loyal to the cardiac surgeons who helped their
:25:13. > :25:17.children. We are absolutely delighted. Everything that we said
:25:18. > :25:22.was wrong with the review has been proved to be wrong with the review.
:25:22. > :25:26.And the fact that it is all going to be looked at again is just
:25:26. > :25:31.brilliant. But this decision is a big setback for the national
:25:31. > :25:34.reconfiguration, the NHS has to undertake. We are quite concerned
:25:34. > :25:39.that children's lives and their quality of life are very much at
:25:40. > :25:45.risk with the continuing delay. units around the country specialise
:25:45. > :25:48.in children's cardiac surgery. After much debate, and a major
:25:48. > :25:54.consultation, it was decided only seven would be safe and sustainable
:25:54. > :25:59.for the future. The other three, Leeds General Infirmary, Glenfield
:25:59. > :26:02.in Leicester, and Royal Brompton in west London, should stop doing
:26:02. > :26:07.these operations. Campaigners fought hard against the decision,
:26:07. > :26:11.some went to court. Today a report by the Independent Reconfiguration
:26:11. > :26:17.Panel said the original decision process was flawed. They said it
:26:17. > :26:21.had concentrated too much on the surgery alone. As a surgeon clearly
:26:21. > :26:25.I would focus on the surgical element, but we were asked to
:26:25. > :26:29.review the whole pathway of care from beginning to end and whether
:26:29. > :26:33.proposals that had been put forward by safe and sustainable would be
:26:33. > :26:37.sustainable in the long-term and accessible to patients. So the
:26:37. > :26:43.evidence we took and we heard from lots of people who felt that would
:26:43. > :26:49.not be the case. So the difficult decision, which units to close, has
:26:49. > :26:54.been postponed. I therefore accept their recommendation that the
:26:54. > :26:57.proposals cannot go ahead in that current form and I'm suspending the
:26:57. > :27:06.review today. NHS England will also seek to withdraw its appeal against
:27:06. > :27:11.the judicial review successfully achieved by Sabar Surgery in Leeds.
:27:11. > :27:13.Nonetheless the IRP is clear the clinical case for change remains.
:27:13. > :27:16.The Health Secretary said there is consensus that these difficult
:27:16. > :27:20.operations should be done in fewer centres across the country. He
:27:20. > :27:24.didn't set a deadline for that reorganisation. It is up to NHS
:27:25. > :27:28.England to come up with a new way forward by the end of July. They
:27:28. > :27:35.said there should be plans for implementation within the next 12
:27:35. > :27:39.months. While many families in workshire campaign to keep the
:27:39. > :27:42.specialist unit in Leeds General Infirmary, some support the
:27:42. > :27:46.reorganisation. Michelle Elliot's daughter, Jessica, was born with a
:27:46. > :27:51.heart defect. As she grew up her heart grew weaker. Two years ago
:27:51. > :27:55.she became very ill indeed. She was a patient at Leeds General
:27:55. > :28:00.Infirmary. She couldn't get up the stairs, she wasn't eating, she was
:28:00. > :28:04.grey. I was constantly being told I was a pedantic mum and she's not
:28:04. > :28:09.sick enough yet. Children have to be much sicker than Jessica to get
:28:09. > :28:13.a transplant. So there was a constant refusal to refer her up to
:28:14. > :28:19.a different unit. According to Michelle it took months before
:28:19. > :28:23.Jessica was referred to the Freeman Hospital in Newcastle. She was
:28:23. > :28:26.gravely ill and had a transplant within weeks. Michelle has since
:28:26. > :28:30.met other families who have travelled for treatment. We are 15
:28:31. > :28:34.families within the group who have all decided their child would have
:28:34. > :28:40.a better outcome from surgery at a larger centre. They have taken
:28:40. > :28:45.their children to the Freeman. If I had to take Jessica to China every
:28:45. > :28:55.week for a superior service I would do. Today the Health Secretary said
:28:55. > :29:04.
:29:04. > :29:09.he had full confidence in the unit. It is nearly 20 years since a
:29:09. > :29:14.surgeon blew a whistle at Bristol royal infermy, revealing many
:29:14. > :29:18.children -- infirmary, revealing that many children were dying
:29:18. > :29:25.before and after heart surgery. It was said that children's heart
:29:25. > :29:28.surgeries should be done in fewer and more specialist centres, where
:29:28. > :29:31.surgeons and nurses had most expert advertise. The longer that is
:29:31. > :29:36.delayed the more the existing service is affected. Already we are
:29:36. > :29:40.beginning to see a crumbling of the service. We are finding because of
:29:40. > :29:44.the uncertainty the current service are reluctant to recruit or replace
:29:44. > :29:50.staff as they leave. They are reluctant to replace equipment and
:29:50. > :29:56.so on. All this delay will do is continue what I would regard as
:29:56. > :30:00.disinvestment. Reconfiguration is one of the great challenges facing
:30:00. > :30:07.the NHS. The example of children's heart surgery shows just how
:30:07. > :30:13.difficult it can be. Sir Ian Kennedy who was mentioned in the
:30:13. > :30:20.piece is here now. Greg Mulholland is the Lib Dem MP for Leeds North.
:30:20. > :30:24.That hospital was one of three due to have its cardiac surgery
:30:24. > :30:30.provision removed, which Mr Mulholland has campaigned
:30:30. > :30:33.vigorously against. It is a dozen years since your report? My feeling
:30:33. > :30:38.today can be captured in the word "despair". Here we are again, it is
:30:38. > :30:43.a sad day for children, it is a sad day for parents. Because Government
:30:43. > :30:46.seems to have found another reason to do nothing. This time the
:30:46. > :30:51.reasons are flawed process, previously there were other reasons.
:30:51. > :30:55.The fact remains we know the answer, there should be fewer centres, but
:30:55. > :31:01.we don't have the decision, so parents and children are left where
:31:01. > :31:07.they have been for a long time. is pathetic, 12 years, isn't it?
:31:07. > :31:11.is a failure of significant order. It is not a proud day for the NHS
:31:11. > :31:15.today. The opportunity was there. We have had report after report
:31:15. > :31:19.after report. Somebody has to make a decision. You can argue about
:31:19. > :31:23.this judgment or that judgment, this is flawed, that is flawed. We
:31:23. > :31:26.have been up and down courts and everywhere else, we have got a
:31:26. > :31:33.strange of options. The Secretary of State is the political person
:31:33. > :31:38.who has to make that decision. are the MP for Leeds North West.
:31:38. > :31:41.You campaigned to keep your local hospital going in this business.
:31:41. > :31:44.Presumably you think this is a victory do you? I do think it is a
:31:44. > :31:49.victory, Jeremy. I don't think it is a victory for Leeds or indeed
:31:49. > :31:52.for the other two hospitals. Today is a victory for accountability in
:31:52. > :31:55.the NHS. You could put it like that or say it is a victory for
:31:55. > :32:00.indecision? What is clear is that today we have had some leadership
:32:00. > :32:04.and we have had accountability. And I can tell you that, and I made
:32:04. > :32:08.this clear to Lord Ribeiro when we had the independent reconfiguration
:32:08. > :32:12.panel, I made clear to them if this is about a local centre and trying
:32:12. > :32:16.to save our own hospital you would take that with a pinch of salt. We
:32:16. > :32:21.are telling you we have seen clear evidence that we had that this
:32:21. > :32:24.process has been flawed and biased and there has been a complete lack
:32:24. > :32:31.of transparency. That is simply not an acceptable way to make a
:32:31. > :32:35.decision. I hard Lord Ribeiro talk about we concentrated too much on
:32:35. > :32:39.the surgery. I'm flabbergasted. We looked at the intensive care,
:32:39. > :32:43.cardiology, the number of nurses, we looked at the Ronald McDonald
:32:43. > :32:48.home for parents. Goodness me. I think I understand Mr Mulholland's
:32:48. > :32:53.position. He's doing what he thinks is in the interests of the local
:32:53. > :32:58.electorate. But I have to say to him. Not true.I have to say to him
:32:58. > :33:02.now this is not about him and it is not only about the constituents of
:33:02. > :33:07.Leeds. Absolutely, it is about the NHS and the fundamental lack of
:33:07. > :33:11.accountability. It is not.I have to say Sir Ian there are people you
:33:11. > :33:14.know in this review who have wasted millions of tax-payers' money by
:33:14. > :33:19.following through a process that has been done, in the words of a
:33:19. > :33:25.High Court judge, as being "fundamentally unfair". If that had
:33:25. > :33:28.not been the case, if this process had been done. This is the problem
:33:28. > :33:33.you won't reach rational decisions and you are shouted at. It was a
:33:33. > :33:41.flawed decision, accept that. say part of my group which
:33:41. > :33:44.consisted of a lot of commissions and nurses. One of them was a
:33:44. > :33:48.mother whole child died during surgery at the Bristol Royal
:33:48. > :33:53.Infirmary, you are telling me that she was in any way involved in
:33:53. > :34:00.anything other than the most poignant pursuit in the interests
:34:00. > :34:04.of everybody. It is not about Leeds, it is not you, can I finish. That
:34:04. > :34:09.is what I said, do not misrepresent my position. Can I finish the
:34:09. > :34:14.sentence. It is about the future of children who either do need or will
:34:14. > :34:20.need this form of surgery. They deserve the best possible surgical
:34:20. > :34:27.care. We know that means that they should go to fewer sent. What we
:34:27. > :34:31.are held up by -- centres. What we are held up by is the altar of
:34:31. > :34:36.misplaced localism for an abdication of decision making.
:34:36. > :34:40.accept there are places that will close. As long as it isn't Leeds.
:34:40. > :34:43.Let's get an answer? That is unfair and offensive. I'm asking you a
:34:43. > :34:47.straight question do you accept there are some places that need to
:34:47. > :34:50.close? I accept the decision has to be made on evidence. Sir Ian's
:34:50. > :34:54.review that he had to take some responsibility. Do you accept some
:34:54. > :34:57.places have to close, you haven't answer that? You look at Scotland
:34:57. > :35:01.or the rest of the continent. is your answer to the question?
:35:01. > :35:05.There may not be a need for the number of closures we talked about.
:35:05. > :35:09.There is only one centre. This is very interesting, this is a world
:35:10. > :35:17.authority here, and you say, you represent, you are not a doctor are
:35:17. > :35:20.you? A High Court judge, and I quote "fundamentally unfair". The
:35:20. > :35:25.Independent Reconfiguration Panel said serious criticisms. Instead of
:35:25. > :35:29.turning it on me, he's the person who came up with the absurd idea to
:35:29. > :35:33.put on his review panel surgeons who are associated, or even at the
:35:33. > :35:40.units that may close. That is nonsense, that is like saying for
:35:40. > :35:50.his review on MPs' pay that we should decide how to do it. It is
:35:50. > :35:53.
:35:53. > :35:56.not true. We have had an independent panel look at this, and
:35:56. > :35:59.they have thrown it out, and it has wasted �6 million. We have had
:35:59. > :36:04.court, Court of Appeal, independent reconfiguration review, my review,
:36:04. > :36:08.Bristol, another review. The review has been flawed. Your review has
:36:08. > :36:13.been flawed. You have been partly responsible for wasting �6 million
:36:13. > :36:17.of tax-payers' money. Don't talk nonsense Mr Mulholland. That is the
:36:17. > :36:20.reality found by the independent reconfiguration panel as well as a
:36:20. > :36:23.High Court judge. The money has been blown, no argument about that.
:36:24. > :36:28.The Secretary of State made a judgment about it. It was
:36:28. > :36:35.inadequate. The money need never have been spent. The answer we know
:36:35. > :36:40.is there must be fewer centres. not according to him. That's just
:36:40. > :36:45.simply nonsense, internationally and nationally it is accepted that
:36:45. > :36:49.children deserve. That isn't true. Mr Mulholland you seem to be
:36:49. > :36:53.capable of embracing a number of propositions that have no evidence.
:36:53. > :36:58.The problem is your review was not based on evidence that is why it is
:36:58. > :37:02.deemed to be fundamentally flawed. Fundamentally flawed by the NHS
:37:02. > :37:06.Independent Reconfiguration Panel. It would be good if you could
:37:06. > :37:11.accept some response responsibility for that. Or tell us the people on
:37:11. > :37:16.the review panel who badly let down those children and tax-payers'
:37:16. > :37:19.money. The triumph of rhetoric over reality. I'm talking about evidence
:37:19. > :37:22.I have seen, evidence in your failed review with your name on.
:37:22. > :37:26.This is so depressing on it, that you are trying to do something for
:37:26. > :37:32.the welfare of children who are currently not receiving optimal
:37:32. > :37:36.care. So are we. Thank you both very much. The
:37:36. > :37:39.eurocrisis is over, don't take my word for it although the crisis
:37:40. > :37:43.gave us a very good living for a while. Take it from the President
:37:43. > :37:47.of France if it has really been settled it is because the
:37:48. > :37:53.generosity of the Germans, where belief in the European Union is
:37:53. > :37:59.taken in with mother milk. However late in the day a party has emerged
:37:59. > :38:06.to say "enough". It not as try dent as UKIP, but it is ready to say the
:38:06. > :38:09.unsayable, like the euro is nuts. When this is the thanks they get
:38:09. > :38:14.for continued bail outs from countries like Greece or Cyprus, it
:38:14. > :38:23.is little wonder the patience of many Germans is just running out. A
:38:23. > :38:30.recent poll by Focus Magazine, showed 26% would consider voting
:38:30. > :38:35.for an anti-euro party. So this man, a former World Bank adviser, is he
:38:35. > :38:39.the man to whom they will return. After 33 years as a member of
:38:39. > :38:45.Angela Merkel's centre right party, he decided he had enough of a
:38:45. > :38:50.coalition he felt now was misguided. In February this year he founded
:38:50. > :38:57.Germany's first anti-euro party. Simply named Alternative for
:38:57. > :39:02.Germany. What do you think has gone wrong
:39:02. > :39:09.with the European project? I think we made one step of integration
:39:09. > :39:15.which was too much. It was the common currency. We now know this
:39:15. > :39:19.was a big, big mistake and a great failure. But it is not as if people
:39:19. > :39:23.weren't warned beforehand. It was pointed out by dozens and dozens of
:39:23. > :39:27.people that the economy of a country like Germany is completely
:39:27. > :39:31.different to some of those other countries in the Mediterranean?
:39:31. > :39:37.That's true, but not many people believe the message of economists.
:39:37. > :39:41.That is perhaps part of our fate. That is quite sensible at times too.
:39:41. > :39:46.Given that there was a warning, and given that the decision, none the
:39:46. > :39:51.less, was made to go ahead with it. It indicates, does it not, an
:39:51. > :39:56.almost religious faith? I wouldn't say that it is religious. You know
:39:56. > :40:02.that Germans are very favourable of European integration and to think
:40:02. > :40:07.that there was some belief that the euro would exert some competitive
:40:07. > :40:10.pressure which led to structural adjustment in say the Mediterranean
:40:10. > :40:14.countries. Your country did very well out of the euro too?
:40:15. > :40:19.really because in the first years of the euro Germany had the lowest
:40:19. > :40:24.growth rate in the eurozone. managed to achieve a great deal in
:40:24. > :40:31.export markets during the creation of the eurozone didn't you?
:40:31. > :40:37.true. The great boom in exports was later between 2001-2005. We
:40:37. > :40:44.actually had trouble living in the eurozone. What is your suggesting
:40:44. > :40:51.solution then? Our solution is we dissolve the euro by first letting
:40:51. > :40:57.the Mediterranean countries exit in a gradual way. Which may well take
:40:57. > :41:02.on four or five years. That later on we split the rest of the
:41:02. > :41:07.euroRhone either in smaller currency areas 0 -- euroareas,
:41:07. > :41:12.either in smaller currency areas or back to their own currencies.
:41:12. > :41:17.Angela Merkel said if the euro fails Europe fails? I'm afraid the
:41:17. > :41:21.euro splits Europe into two parts. Into a stagnant part, southern
:41:21. > :41:26.Europe, which is deeply in recession, with high rates of
:41:26. > :41:31.unemployment and youth unemployment with great deficits on current
:41:31. > :41:36.accounts. With a lack of competitiveness. And then the
:41:36. > :41:39.central European part which is still doing fairly well, but which
:41:40. > :41:43.has these high obligations to pay for the debt of the southern
:41:43. > :41:48.countries. We will have to pay for that with inflation or higher taxes
:41:48. > :41:52.or expenditure cuts. You wouldn't go so far as to advocate leaving
:41:52. > :41:57.the European Union all together would you? Not at all. We want to
:41:57. > :42:01.reform the European Union and one reform step would be to abolish the
:42:01. > :42:05.common currency. It is very interesting, the debate in this
:42:05. > :42:09.country is very different. Of course we are not in the euro?
:42:09. > :42:13.aware of that. We are sometimes quite grateful for it too. We are
:42:13. > :42:18.not in the euro. But there is, in this country, now a growing debate
:42:18. > :42:23.about whether we should be even in the European Union at all. There
:42:23. > :42:28.will be a some point a referendum on whether to stay in it or not.
:42:28. > :42:33.Possibly on some sort of revised terms, or not. That debate is not
:42:33. > :42:38.going on in Germany at all is it? No that debate is not going on. But
:42:38. > :42:43.one of the points we press for is that we strengthen democratic
:42:44. > :42:48.rights of the population. So we ask for each state and each population
:42:48. > :42:51.to decide whether they want to stay in the euro and consequently it is
:42:51. > :42:55.the good right of everyone nation to also decide on whether they want
:42:55. > :42:59.to stay in the European Union. So if the British want to have a vote
:42:59. > :43:03.on that that is fine, but I'm pretty sure the Germans do not want
:43:03. > :43:06.to question their membership in the European Union.
:43:06. > :43:15.What was your advice to us? I don't give you advice, that is your
:43:15. > :43:18.business to decide on that. seek a reform of the European Union
:43:18. > :43:25.with what? The cascading down or back down to individual states of
:43:26. > :43:30.powers that are currently centrally held? Less power for the central
:43:30. > :43:36.European institutes? Our main concern is currently the
:43:36. > :43:44.equilibrium, the disequilibrium we see in the eurozone which is due to
:43:44. > :43:47.the fact we have the common currency and there are these
:43:47. > :43:51.misguided attempts to save the common currency. The main issue is
:43:51. > :43:59.how to get out of the mess we stepped in 1999. Do you think
:43:59. > :44:03.Brussels has too much power? I do think that Brussels has created too
:44:03. > :44:11.much bureaucracy. A number of competences should be moved back to
:44:11. > :44:17.the national level. For instance in terms of research
:44:17. > :44:21.money, I don't see why these great funds must be administered on a
:44:21. > :44:25.European level, rather than being handed out by Government its or
:44:25. > :44:30.even universities at a national level, that would confirm to the
:44:30. > :44:40.principle of subsidiarity. Thank you very much. Tomorrow
:44:40. > :45:11.
:45:11. > :45:14.morning's front pages now: That's it, sadly we have no time to
:45:14. > :45:19.report the highlight of the first International Conference on Human
:45:19. > :45:22.agent interaction in Japan. Where an academic from New Zealand had
:45:22. > :45:27.analysed 6,000 faces on Lego characters and discovered there
:45:27. > :45:37.seemed to be more unhappy ones than there used to be. We can only bring
:45:37. > :46:15.
:46:15. > :46:19.a small sample, along with the best a small sample, along with the best
:46:19. > :46:25.graphs, good night. The wind is picking up, a blustery day across
:46:25. > :46:28.the southern half of the UK. Unseasonably strong gusts. It may
:46:28. > :46:31.cause travel disruption. Further north the winds relatively light
:46:31. > :46:36.across Northern Ireland. A few afternoon showers, but sunny spells
:46:36. > :46:42.here. By and large a fine day for much of Scotland bar one or two
:46:42. > :46:46.showers in the far north. The winds nothing like as strong as further
:46:46. > :46:49.south. Downpours across northern England. Later in the day some big
:46:49. > :46:54.showers further east. The winds picking up throughout the day
:46:54. > :46:59.across the Midlands, East Anglia and the south-east. Gusts of 40-50
:46:59. > :47:02.could cause problems. Here not too many showers, sunshine but very
:47:02. > :47:06.blustery across south-west England and Wales. Some transport problems
:47:06. > :47:10.are possible and some damage to trees. The winds are a touch
:47:10. > :47:15.lighter in North Wales. Here expect some heavy downpours. The winds
:47:15. > :47:19.will ease a touch during Thursday night. They will strengthen once
:47:19. > :47:23.more on Friday as further cloud comes from the Atlantic bringing
:47:23. > :47:26.further outbreaks of rain. Eastern areas will stay dry on Friday,