:00:14. > :00:18.They are never knowingly undersold the leaders of the G8 nations, not
:00:18. > :00:24.least by themselves, but they show no sign of being able to agree what
:00:24. > :00:28.to do about the civil war destroying Syria.
:00:28. > :00:31.Why can they agree on trade but not mass killing?
:00:31. > :00:35.We're at the summit. differences between them are
:00:35. > :00:40.profound and abrasive. And the signs are they may be getting even
:00:40. > :00:45.deeper. Is the war spreading into
:00:45. > :00:53.neighbouring countries. We report from Lebanon. If it conditions like
:00:53. > :01:00.this we are going in a war of 100 years. Between who?Between Sunni
:01:00. > :01:04.and Shi'ite. The Internet can bring pornography into every home,
:01:04. > :01:14.everyone condemns its accessability, why are we so unable to control it?
:01:14. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:26.Are there any limits to the They may between them represent
:01:26. > :01:32.countries worth half the total world economy, but they can't agree
:01:32. > :01:37.on what to do about the civil war in Syria. President Obama has
:01:37. > :01:42.already said the United States will give weapons to some of the rebels.
:01:42. > :01:45.President Putin says that is giving guns to cannibals, yet his country
:01:46. > :01:50.arms the Assad regime, and President Assad himself said arming
:01:50. > :01:57.the rebels would promote interflal terrorism. It is a divide
:01:57. > :02:02.reminiscent of the Cold War, and there seems no chance of agreement.
:02:02. > :02:06.Our correspondent is there. You know the drill with these
:02:06. > :02:10.summits, the idea is you bring world statesmen to a remote spot
:02:11. > :02:14.and have a very informal discussion. They even stop wearing their ties.
:02:14. > :02:20.Now the British, who are chairing this meeting wanted this obviously
:02:21. > :02:24.to focus on economic issues, the three Ts of their presidency, trade,
:02:24. > :02:27.taxes and transparency. They also knew in the run up to the summit
:02:27. > :02:32.that there was a big desire to talk about Syria and try to do something
:02:32. > :02:35.to keep alive this idea that there might be a peace conference. The
:02:35. > :02:39.called Geneva 2 conference. But they also knew that the different
:02:39. > :02:49.people, the key players coming here today were moving further apart on
:02:49. > :02:50.
:02:50. > :02:55.the issues at the very time that they were converging on Enniskillen.
:02:55. > :02:59.The circus has come to town. G8 leaders arriving in this corner of
:02:59. > :03:06.Northern Ireland, along with their political trick cyclist, spinners
:03:06. > :03:13.and even the odd clown. And in Enniskillen there are honours as
:03:13. > :03:23.well as responsibilities that fall to the ring master.
:03:23. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:30.Greeting President Obama is one of those more pleasant duties. The two
:03:30. > :03:33.leaders visited a school and talked about the overcoming of the dark
:03:33. > :03:38.days of the troubles. They announced the launch of trade talks
:03:38. > :03:41.between the EU and the US. whole point of the meeting here is
:03:41. > :03:45.to fire up our economies and drive growth and prosperity around the
:03:45. > :03:51.world. To do things that make a real difference to people's lives.
:03:51. > :03:55.There is no more powerful way to achieve that than by boosting trade.
:03:55. > :03:58.But there have been less pleasant duties too. Mr Cameron welcomed
:03:58. > :04:03.President Putin at Downing Street yesterday for talks aimed at
:04:03. > :04:07.bridging their differences over Syria. Or at least giving some
:04:07. > :04:14.fresh impetuous for talks. It is no secret that President Putin and I
:04:14. > :04:19.have had our disagreements on some of these issues. TRANSLATION:
:04:19. > :04:25.regards the supplies of weapons to the Assad Government and as regards
:04:25. > :04:32.to who has the blood of the children and peaceful citizens of
:04:32. > :04:37.Syria, I believe you will not deny that the blood is on the hands of
:04:38. > :04:42.both parties, both of the parties. Instead, they ended up trading
:04:42. > :04:46.accusations publicly about fuelling the conflict. My heart sank when I
:04:46. > :04:51.heard those words about blood on their hands being requoted back at
:04:51. > :04:54.the Prime Minister. Because I remember him using those words at
:04:54. > :04:57.the United Nations General Assembly and at the time I simply didn't
:04:57. > :05:02.understand why he was choosing to condemn the Russians rather than
:05:02. > :05:05.talk to the Russians. Because what we have seen in the months since
:05:05. > :05:09.that speech by the Prime Minister is a growing recognition that if we
:05:09. > :05:14.are going to see a negotiated political settlement in Syria it
:05:14. > :05:19.has to inevitably involve the Russians. The Syrian war was
:05:19. > :05:23.discussed over dinner this evening. Downing Street didn't want it to
:05:23. > :05:29.overshadow the economic issues here. But after the last 24 hours, that
:05:29. > :05:34.was hard. Mr Cameron found himself defending even the possibility of
:05:34. > :05:38.arming the Syrian opposition. believe it is right to be helping,
:05:38. > :05:42.assisting, advising those elements in Syria that want a free,
:05:42. > :05:46.democratic and peculiaristic Syria for the future. We shouldn't accept
:05:46. > :05:49.what President Assad wants us to accept, which is the only
:05:49. > :05:55.alternative to him is extremist terrorism, that is not the case.
:05:55. > :05:59.That is insulting to the millions of Syrians who want a peaceful and
:05:59. > :06:01.democratic future for their country. There were hopes the summit would
:06:01. > :06:05.bring the parties closer together in trying to organise a Syrian
:06:06. > :06:11.peace conference in Geneva. But the differences that have been exposed
:06:11. > :06:15.are so wide, from America arming the opposition, to Russia the Assad
:06:15. > :06:18.regime, and other countries like Germany being opposed to all
:06:19. > :06:23.military supplies into the area, that now there is a very real
:06:23. > :06:30.danger that this may become the summit at which it was realised it
:06:30. > :06:37.was impossible for the Geneva talks to go ahead. In this placid nobody
:06:37. > :06:40.will want to -- place nobody will want to concede a failure of that
:06:40. > :06:43.kind. This is a moment of grave danger for Syria and the future.
:06:43. > :06:47.There is a degree of ambiguity in terms of the careful public words
:06:47. > :06:50.that have emerged from the White House in the run-up to the G8
:06:50. > :06:53.meeting. That is why there is a heavy burden of responsibility upon
:06:53. > :06:59.the leaders gathered around the table in Enniskillen this evening,
:06:59. > :07:03.to try to find common ground. And to try to brot life into the
:07:03. > :07:07.process. --To breathe life into the process. This circus will
:07:07. > :07:13.tomorrow ask its stars for a remember voermance, it will tackle
:07:13. > :07:17.the question of tax dodging by big business, something they ought to
:07:17. > :07:21.be able to pull in the same direction. If they can do that,
:07:21. > :07:24.there should be some credit left for the ring master who brought
:07:24. > :07:34.them here. Brook Newmark is a Conservative MP
:07:34. > :07:38.who has visited Syria on many occasions and supports supply of
:07:38. > :07:45.weapons to the rebels. And my other guest is against the supply of
:07:45. > :07:51.weapons. What possible business is it of ours'? There is a strategic
:07:51. > :07:54.interest, we have heard earlier on this is an explosion not an
:07:54. > :07:58.implosion, it is affecting Lebanon, Iraq and neighbouring countries.
:07:58. > :08:02.The second thing is the humanitarian issue. We are seeing a
:08:02. > :08:07.regime going around butchering its own people to stay in power.
:08:07. > :08:12.Clearly it is our business then? it is not, it would be madness to
:08:12. > :08:15.arm the rebels. The whole host of reason, including the fact that you
:08:15. > :08:19.put more weapons into the civil war you will add to the casualties and
:08:19. > :08:23.the suffering. How do you track and trace the weapons in a very fluid
:08:23. > :08:28.situation on the ground, how do you stop these weapons falling into the
:08:28. > :08:33.hands of extremists. Can you answer that? I can, I think there are
:08:33. > :08:37.probably about 100,000 Free Syrian Army members, there is about 5,000
:08:37. > :08:40.Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic extremists. The reason why people
:08:40. > :08:44.are flaknig away from the FSA to the Islamists is because they are
:08:44. > :08:47.better armed. The FSA if they are better armed aren't going to be
:08:47. > :08:51.handing over weapons, frankly, to the Islamic extremists. What do you
:08:51. > :08:56.make of that argument? Our track record of arming groups in this
:08:56. > :09:01.region has not been good, whether the mujahideen in the 1980s or
:09:01. > :09:07.Saddam Hussein when he attacked Iran. Jabhat al-Nusra is linked to
:09:07. > :09:11.qaed, we would be throwing arms into -- Al-Qaeda, and we would be
:09:11. > :09:20.throwing arms into that situation. You can't say we are not going to
:09:20. > :09:23.support the legitimate majority in Syria by saying we are throwing
:09:23. > :09:30.weapons in there. Not only would it inflate violence within Syria, but
:09:30. > :09:35.there is a real danger because Syria is a proxy war, Sunni versus
:09:35. > :09:41.Shia, Iran versus Saudi Arabia, the west versus Russian, the more
:09:41. > :09:46.weapons you put into that conflict the more you extend it beyond the
:09:46. > :09:51.boundaries. So we watch the tragedy unfold? No do something much more,
:09:51. > :09:56.two things, push the humanitarian aid. You go to visit the camps in
:09:56. > :10:01.Jordan, they are in desperate need of basic amenities. Secondly, on
:10:01. > :10:05.the diplomatic front, why not more there. For example why is the west
:10:05. > :10:09.excluding Iran from Geneva 2. Iran is a major player in the area and
:10:09. > :10:13.we are saying you can't turn up, despite the fact they are a key
:10:13. > :10:16.player in the area. Geneva 2 being the peace conference? At the end of
:10:16. > :10:21.the month, organised by the Russians and we are excluding the
:10:21. > :10:25.Iranians, it doesn't make sense. If you are serious about diplomacy.
:10:25. > :10:28.You like the Iranians at the table too? Yes, otherwise there will be a
:10:28. > :10:31.spoiler at the end of the day. You can't have an overall peace without
:10:31. > :10:36.all the key players being there. But I just want to go back to
:10:37. > :10:41.John's point that if we do nothing, and doing nothing is not an option,
:10:41. > :10:45.this will go on. Why isn't it an option? Because this war
:10:46. > :10:52.unfortunately will go on for a decade or more as we saw in Lebanon.
:10:52. > :10:58.The only way to bring Assad to the negotiating table at Geneva 2 is to
:10:58. > :11:03.raise the ante effectively by legitimate arming of the troops.
:11:03. > :11:06.Our track record of promoting democracy through intervention is
:11:06. > :11:10.abysmally poor. Look at where democracy is flourishing in North
:11:10. > :11:15.Africa, we have been hardly involved. Look at our involvement,
:11:15. > :11:18.we have paid a heavy price in Iraq and Afghanistan, in lives and
:11:18. > :11:22.treasure. There wasn't a civil war in Iraq before we went in there.
:11:22. > :11:26.Our track record is very poor, we have to be very careful. Is there
:11:26. > :11:30.an extent to which in any decision like this Tony Blair poisoned the
:11:30. > :11:35.well? To a certain extent he did. There is no doubt about it, we went
:11:35. > :11:38.to war in Iraq on a false premise, there were no WMD. At the same time
:11:38. > :11:42.we have to still look at each case individually, but our track record,
:11:42. > :11:47.generally, if you look at history, we have got involved in the west in
:11:47. > :11:53.a number of conflicts around the world, and it has an embeding
:11:53. > :11:58.affect, it reinforces the existing regime. There is no co-indense that
:11:59. > :12:02.communism survived longer where the west intervened, China, Korea, we
:12:02. > :12:06.have to learn that soft power, diplomacy and humanitarian aid,
:12:06. > :12:09.particularly when it comes to Syria. For two-and-a-half years we have
:12:09. > :12:15.been pursuing that. I have been a big supporter of the diplomatic
:12:15. > :12:20.track. I very much believe in engagment. Why is Iran being
:12:20. > :12:24.excluded? You and I are agreed on that. He has said that.I have said
:12:24. > :12:30.that unfortunately soft power has failed for two years by the UN. I
:12:30. > :12:34.believe that the only way and following Qusair, the recent battle
:12:34. > :12:38.with Hezbollah support, Assad captured a strategic town that
:12:38. > :12:42.Assad thinks he can win. While he thinks he can win he will not come
:12:42. > :12:46.to the negotiating table. I'm saying unless we arm the opposition
:12:46. > :12:49.as a means to bringing Bashar al- Assad and the regime to the
:12:49. > :12:54.negotiating table, this war will go on and he will destroy his people
:12:54. > :12:57.into the ground. It beggers belief the view that you can pour more
:12:57. > :13:01.arms into a civil war and it won't cause more casualties and suffering,
:13:01. > :13:05.it will, I promise you. outcomes are bad f we do nothing
:13:05. > :13:11.there will still be loss of life. You and I agree there is more to be
:13:11. > :13:16.done on the diplomatic and had you tantarian front. Can I --
:13:16. > :13:19.Humanitarian front. Can I ask you, if we were to supply weapons to
:13:19. > :13:23.either side would it require a vote of parliament in favour?
:13:23. > :13:27.understanding is both the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister
:13:28. > :13:31.have given a commitment for a full debate. Whether there will be a
:13:31. > :13:37.vote? Should it require? I can answer that question, we have
:13:37. > :13:41.pressed the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House on this, we had
:13:41. > :13:45.a categorical answer, whether on the policy of arming the rebels or
:13:45. > :13:48.providing lethal aid to the weapons, it is not just a debate it is a
:13:48. > :13:51.full vote of the House of Commons. Thank you very much indeed. No-one
:13:51. > :13:55.is talking about sending troops into Syria. Not publicly at least,
:13:55. > :13:59.and not yet at least. There is one country with forces there, though
:13:59. > :14:02.they are not Government forces. Fighters from Hezbollah, the Shia
:14:02. > :14:08.state within a state in neighbouring Lebanon make no secret
:14:08. > :14:12.of their involvement, which race raise -- raises the question of how
:14:12. > :14:16.much longer will this be a civil war. We have been to Lebanon to
:14:16. > :14:22.find out why it is turning into a wider sectarian conflict between
:14:22. > :14:28.Shia and Sunni Muslims. The road to war in Syria runs at
:14:28. > :14:36.Lebanon's valley. To the east the hills that mark the border. It is a
:14:36. > :14:41.road built by Iran and that's no surprise. The valley is a vital
:14:41. > :14:45.corridor for the alliance between Iran, Syria and Lebanon's Hezbollah
:14:45. > :14:53.militia. Now that alliance is dragging Lebanon itself into the
:14:53. > :15:00.war. This valley has long been a channel for smuggling arms into
:15:00. > :15:07.Syria, now it is becoming a battlefield itself. In the town of
:15:07. > :15:11.Hemel, they are still putting out the fire from a rocket attack. The
:15:11. > :15:18.local headman said it came from inside Lebanon. He's from haez, and
:15:18. > :15:24.he believes it is a re-- Hezbollah, and he believes it is a reprisal
:15:24. > :15:27.from the Hezbollah allies for the support he has been giving to
:15:27. > :15:31.Assad's forces. TRANSLATION: They have suffered a big loss in Syria,
:15:31. > :15:33.they are frustrated, so they are attacking border villages that help
:15:33. > :15:43.the Syrian army. They don't understand who they are dealing
:15:43. > :15:47.with. We have gone through many wars, and God willing, we will win.
:15:47. > :15:53.Young Hezbollah fighters who have died in Syria are celebrated all
:15:53. > :16:01.along the valley. Among them is this man, aged 24. He grew up in
:16:01. > :16:09.this house and was training to be a medical technician. Now, in his
:16:09. > :16:13.family's eyes, he's a martyr. TRANSLATION: We were very, very
:16:13. > :16:17.proud of him, everyone thought well of him, his friends, his teachers,
:16:17. > :16:27.they all said his behaviour was exemplary. It was the same at home.
:16:27. > :16:30.
:16:30. > :16:35.Especially with me. The battle of Qusair in which Mohammed died,
:16:35. > :16:44.pitted the Syrian regime and Hezbollah against rebels, who
:16:44. > :16:50.Hezbollah refer to as religious extremists. The confrontation was
:16:50. > :16:52.face-to-face. There were only five metres between him and the
:16:52. > :17:02.religious extremists. Of course with machine guns and everything,
:17:02. > :17:03.
:17:03. > :17:08.that is how our son was hit, with bullets and martyred. Martyrdom is
:17:08. > :17:13.nothing new for Hezbollah in the valley. The mausoleum of the
:17:13. > :17:19.militia's former leader, dominates the nearby village. He was killed
:17:19. > :17:24.by Israel in 1992. But it is harder to explain why Hezbollah members
:17:24. > :17:26.are now being martyred in a fight with gel low Arabs in Syria.
:17:27. > :17:32.Hezbollah has been revered throughout the Arab world for its
:17:32. > :17:41.resistance to Israel. Now it risks losing that prestige with its open
:17:41. > :17:45.military support for President Assad's regime in Syria. A
:17:45. > :17:48.complicated pattern of reasons hides behind that gamble. Without
:17:48. > :17:52.Assad, Hezbollah's military supplies from Iran would be
:17:52. > :17:55.disrupted. It fears too the forces that would replace him. Hezbollah
:17:55. > :18:01.is a Shi'ite organisation, its supporters don't see the Syrian
:18:01. > :18:11.rebels as freedom fighters. They see them as Sunni zealots, who
:18:11. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:15.won't accept other forms of Islam. Religious extremists. To Mo Hampson
:18:15. > :18:23.med's family, the threat of religious extremists after the fall
:18:23. > :18:28.of the dictatorship feels very real. TRANSLATION: We have seen what they
:18:28. > :18:37.have done in Iraq, the daily bombings. The United States came to
:18:37. > :18:42.Iraq in 2003 to install a democratic system. What we saw were
:18:42. > :18:50.regular Al-Qaeda attacks with 200 killed. They believe Mohammed died
:18:50. > :18:54.to protect them, because a rebel victory in Qusair would have put
:18:55. > :18:58.religious extremists uncomfortably close to Lebanon. TRANSLATION:
:18:58. > :19:02.martyr Mohammed was not desperate to die, he was engaged to be
:19:02. > :19:06.married, he was building himself a house. He loved life. He went to
:19:06. > :19:09.fight because he knew these Muslim extremists would come one day to
:19:09. > :19:19.his house, his family and his friends, and slaughter them as they
:19:19. > :19:24.did in Qusair. Echoing across the roof tops of Lebanon you can hear
:19:24. > :19:34.the ever-harsher sound of sectarian division from the other side too.
:19:34. > :19:36.
:19:36. > :19:46.This is Tripoli, a largely Sunni city on the coast. And the Imam at
:19:46. > :19:53.
:19:53. > :19:59.Friday prayers is demanding action to help the rebels of Syria.
:19:59. > :20:02.He tells worshipsers it means standing up to Shi'ite hatred,
:20:02. > :20:07.Shi'ite terrorism, Shi'ite extremism. Listening as a young man
:20:07. > :20:11.this man, who has just returned from fighting with the rebels in
:20:11. > :20:18.Qusair. And there is plenty more here who will fight if they get a
:20:18. > :20:22.direct call. In Islam there is no borders. There is no borders, there
:20:22. > :20:27.is belief. There is belief. It is a brotherhood, it is a network. That
:20:27. > :20:33.network whether you are in Chechnya, Somalia, or in Syria, or in Tripoli,
:20:33. > :20:40.or next door, it is all the same. And these young kids the older ones
:20:40. > :20:48.they are all in it. For them the rebellion is driven not by violent
:20:48. > :20:51.extremism, which they denounce, but by moral outrage. TRANSLATION:
:20:51. > :20:58.can I say about an oppressive regime that kills women, children
:20:58. > :21:04.and defenceless people who are only getting more weapons now? But in
:21:04. > :21:11.Qusair he was fighting, not only Syrian troops, but also Iranians
:21:11. > :21:17.and fellow Lebanese from Hezbollah. TRANSLATION: We caught many of them
:21:17. > :21:26.and killed them after interrogating them. We killed them with their IDs
:21:26. > :21:31.on, carrying their key to heaven. Fluttering above the black flag of
:21:31. > :21:37.Jihad marks the building with his father lives and holds court. He's
:21:37. > :21:42.one of the leaders in Lebanon of the strict and fast-growing Salafi
:21:42. > :21:46.school of laem. He has called unambiguously for the young Lebanon
:21:46. > :21:49.fighters to go with the Syrian rebels. If they lose it would be a
:21:49. > :21:57.catastrophe for the Sunni, the beginning of a Shi'ite power grab
:21:57. > :22:02.in the Middle East. TRANSLATION: Othello move on to besiege Saudi
:22:02. > :22:06.Arabia and other countries in the gulf. To control the sacred places
:22:06. > :22:13.and the riches of that region. To rule the Islamic world if they can
:22:13. > :22:20.and become a world superpower. Tripoli, Lebanon's second-largest
:22:21. > :22:23.city has for years seen sporadic violence between Sunnis and
:22:23. > :22:27.Alawites locally, the sect that President Assad belongs to. Now the
:22:27. > :22:32.Lebanese army has stopped the fighting. But nobody knows for how
:22:32. > :22:37.long. As the civil war in Syria becomes ever more sectarian, it is
:22:37. > :22:41.deepening the old Sunni-Shia divide, right across the Middle East. And
:22:41. > :22:46.many fear that Lebanon, this most fragile of states, will crack under
:22:47. > :22:51.the strain. In the Sunni districts of Tripoli,
:22:51. > :22:58.as elsewhere across the Arab world, Hezbollah, which means the party of
:22:58. > :23:03.God, is now referred to as the party of Satan. Its leader, made
:23:03. > :23:06.efforts at a rally last week to calm sectarian passions in Lebanon.
:23:06. > :23:14.His party needs stability on its home ground. But Hezbollah will
:23:14. > :23:20.fight on in Syria. TRANSLATION: They are in a very new situation in
:23:20. > :23:29.the Middle East. We didn't see the situation from many hundred years.
:23:29. > :23:36.If it continues like this we are going noo a war of 100 years. --
:23:36. > :23:43.into a war of 100 years. Between who? Between Sunni and Shia in this
:23:43. > :23:48.region. This man is planning to return to Syria when the schrapnal
:23:48. > :23:53.wounds have healed. TRANSLATION: God willing I will go back and
:23:53. > :23:57.fight and win or when God takes me to him. Mohammed's sister believes
:23:57. > :24:05.Shi'ites are being targeted just as the Prophet Mohammed's grandson,
:24:05. > :24:10.one of the Shi'ite's great leaders, was in the 7th century AD. The way
:24:10. > :24:15.that Imam Hussein, is the same way the Syrians are trying to kill us.
:24:15. > :24:21.All this happened 1300 years ago, but really the same thing is
:24:21. > :24:25.happening now? Yes. The same story is renewed. As the war spills over
:24:25. > :24:29.into eastern Lebanon, many on both sides in the region now think they
:24:29. > :24:38.are in a battle for survival. And outside powers are doing little to
:24:38. > :24:41.dampen their fears. Now the Culture Secretary Maria Miller gets to
:24:41. > :24:45.spend part of tomorrow contemplating pornography. The
:24:45. > :24:49.Prime Minister has already pleaded with internet companies to do more
:24:49. > :24:54.to protect children and Google has taken a little money out of its
:24:54. > :24:59.petty cash to help. 20 years ago no-one imagined it
:24:59. > :25:01.would become so common place and no-one now knows how to protect
:25:01. > :25:11.people from pornography's more malign influences.
:25:11. > :25:11.
:25:11. > :25:15.We report. There is a constant barrage of
:25:15. > :25:19.sexually explicit texts and links, and e-mails that are coming from
:25:19. > :25:24.their peer groups or friends. There is a consistent barrage of porn
:25:24. > :25:28.that they are exposed to on a daily basis. Chloe spent years as a
:25:28. > :25:36.secondary school teacher. She was shocked when she saw what some of
:25:36. > :25:39.her pupils were watching on-line. There were depictions of grand rape,
:25:39. > :25:44.multiple penetration, slapping, hitting, spitting, choking. I'm not
:25:44. > :25:47.for a moment saying all boys are watching this, certainly some are.
:25:48. > :25:53.And the general consensus was that they kind of thought it was funny.
:25:53. > :25:57.Or possibly they thought it was a bit worrying. But I do think that
:25:57. > :26:01.possibly I think with anything the more you see something the more you
:26:01. > :26:04.are exposed to something the more it is normalised. It is something
:26:04. > :26:08.that troubled every parent, including the Prime Minister, with
:26:08. > :26:13.so much pornography available on the Internet. So few controls, it
:26:13. > :26:19.is possible even for quite young children to stumble upon explicit
:26:19. > :26:22.material. This isn't new, last year the provider TalkTalk promised
:26:22. > :26:27.every customer would have parental controls if they wanted them.
:26:27. > :26:30.Search engines and browsers too offer safe settings. They restrict
:26:31. > :26:36.sites, often using key words, that could be a problem too. Sometimes
:26:37. > :26:42.they block too much. If you were to take Google Safe Search as an
:26:42. > :26:49.example, and search for the word "hardcore". Which is quite extreme
:26:49. > :26:55.term but applies to music as well? It is extreme example to prove a
:26:55. > :27:03.point and millions of websites are blocked on the entire internet.
:27:03. > :27:07.Paul Walsh, an entrepeneur based in the US has developed what he calls
:27:07. > :27:13.a more sophisticated alternative, it doesn't block innocent sites.
:27:13. > :27:17.What is wrong with the parental controls at the moment? They are
:27:17. > :27:20.complicated to implement, they block too many normal websites.
:27:20. > :27:24.They have kids saying I want to access this website because it is
:27:24. > :27:29.blocked. It turns out to be a perfectly innocent website. Parents
:27:29. > :27:32.have to manually add every single safe website that is secure to the
:27:32. > :27:36.parental controls. It is just complicated and they block way too
:27:36. > :27:41.many innocent websites. They get tired of that. In recent days
:27:41. > :27:48.ministers have raised this issue. The summit was originally called to
:27:48. > :27:54.discuss images of child abuse on- line. When a child is sexually
:27:54. > :27:58.abused, it affects them for life. According to the Internet watch
:27:58. > :28:02.foundation, the number of images of child abuse is growing fast. It is
:28:02. > :28:06.estimated there could be hundred of millions of images in circulation
:28:06. > :28:11.now, most of young children. Ministers have been writing in
:28:11. > :28:16.newspapers and making speeches, which seemed to me to be conflating
:28:16. > :28:20.too quite distinct issues, one is what do we do about the amount of
:28:20. > :28:23.apparently legal, adult pornography available on the Internet that
:28:23. > :28:27.children can get access to. A big and serious problem. With what we
:28:27. > :28:31.do about child abuse images which are illegal. The quantities we are
:28:31. > :28:35.now talking about are gigantic. We have to focus on that. That is the
:28:36. > :28:40.really pressing problem. It would be a huge shame if ministers' time
:28:40. > :28:47.are taken up with these other admittedly important, but nothing
:28:47. > :28:50.like as important as they are in relation to child abuse images.
:28:50. > :28:53.Tonight the Prime Minister's adviser on childhood and
:28:53. > :28:58.pornography said firms could be asked to pay more to strengthen the
:28:58. > :29:02.foundation, to make it a really well-funded and robust group. And
:29:02. > :29:07.she said she was confident the four biggest internet service providers
:29:07. > :29:12.would implement a filter system to prestrict access for children by
:29:12. > :29:19.the end of the year. To discuss what changes should be
:29:19. > :29:27.made to on-line access we have Lizzie Patch whose 11-year-old son
:29:27. > :29:34.watched porn on his phone, an incident that left him traumatised,
:29:34. > :29:38.a researcher from the London School of economics, and the editor of PC
:29:38. > :29:43.Pro magazine. How serious a problem do you judge this to be? I think
:29:43. > :29:53.that it is a serious problem. I think it is a very complex problem
:29:53. > :29:53.
:29:53. > :29:58.as well. Go on?In that my son he watched what he watched on the
:29:58. > :30:03.phone because what it boiled down to an element of peer pressure, he
:30:03. > :30:08.wanted to fit in, he was told if he watched the video which was pretty
:30:08. > :30:11.readily available, he would be cool. It was funny. And having just gone
:30:11. > :30:17.up from primary school into secondary school he wanted to be
:30:17. > :30:21.seen to be fitting in with the cool boys. He was 11 years old. And he
:30:21. > :30:25.watched something that really distressed him? Yes it did. It did
:30:25. > :30:30.distress him. Yes. How do you protect children from that sort of
:30:30. > :30:33.thing? I think there are things we can do. One of the things I think
:30:33. > :30:38.is really important to stress from the start is the difference between
:30:38. > :30:41.what's illegal and what is legal. What is illegal offline is also
:30:42. > :30:44.illegal on-line and as your report made clear you know there are
:30:44. > :30:48.protections in place, but they are not working effectively enough at
:30:48. > :30:54.the moment. So we need to strengthen and ensure that those
:30:54. > :30:57.are better enforced. It is not just about what is legal and illegal, it
:30:58. > :31:03.is what b what is appropriate or inappropriate, what you and I might
:31:03. > :31:06.watch is not suitable for an 11- year-old in many cases? So we
:31:06. > :31:11.should absolutely deal with the illegal. But that is already
:31:11. > :31:16.illegal? We don't need a new law if it is already illegal do we? What
:31:16. > :31:22.is legal for adult circulation, but judged harmful for children, well
:31:22. > :31:26.it could be judged that's, it is clearly inappropriate, so we need
:31:26. > :31:30.some protections. I think where the anxiety comes into play is deciding
:31:30. > :31:34.to treat the material harmful to children with the same kind of
:31:34. > :31:38.enforcement as that which is illegal. Why are the Internet
:31:38. > :31:42.companies involved so pathetic about this? I think pathetic is
:31:42. > :31:45.harsh. I think they are reluctant to get involved because it boils
:31:45. > :31:49.down to censorship. Yes it does. Somebody has to make a decision
:31:49. > :31:53.about what is acceptable for young children and what is not. At some
:31:53. > :31:59.point either side of that line will create a media storm. Why would it
:31:59. > :32:02.not be possible, for example, for the default settings in all areas
:32:02. > :32:06.of the internet to be at the parental control level instead of
:32:06. > :32:12.you having to switch on the parental control? It is where do
:32:12. > :32:17.you start drawing the line. The Internet companies have not only
:32:17. > :32:21.filters for pornography but violent sites, for religious sites, hatred
:32:21. > :32:25.sites. Where does the BNP fit into that, for example. There is a whole
:32:25. > :32:29.host of debatable grey areas where companies are going to start to
:32:29. > :32:33.provide censorship, and should that be the default setting? I would
:32:33. > :32:38.argue not? You would say that all of this should be available, to
:32:38. > :32:41.anyone of any age? I would say internet filters should be
:32:41. > :32:47.available to parent should they choose to use them. I'm reluctant
:32:47. > :32:50.to see a default censorship. They are not deprived if there is that
:32:50. > :32:54.setting they have to reset that themselves? Then you have to go to
:32:54. > :32:58.an ISP and say I would like to see this, there is a psychological
:32:58. > :33:04.barrier there. There is all kinds of issues involved with free speech
:33:04. > :33:07.that having an internet censored by default brings. Would you like the
:33:07. > :33:11.default setting be parental controls? As I said at the
:33:11. > :33:16.beginning I actually think it is a much more complex situation than
:33:16. > :33:20.that. I think because I'm parent who has had this experience people
:33:20. > :33:24.have made an assumption that I would probably want to look it all
:33:24. > :33:28.and switch the Internet off and kill everyone involved. I don't. I
:33:28. > :33:33.think it is. That is a relief.I think it is a value judgment. And
:33:33. > :33:38.it is a difficult value judgment to make. Parental controls are
:33:38. > :33:43.available. And they are on our home computers and smartphones. But
:33:43. > :33:47.beyond that I think that you know children, young people they leave
:33:47. > :33:53.the house. They go to their friends' houses, they meet down
:33:53. > :33:57.town, my son said himself having been told about this site had he
:33:57. > :34:02.not seen it where he did, he would have gone somewhere else. It is
:34:02. > :34:06.available. So from my point of view it is about talking to young people.
:34:06. > :34:10.It is about education and it is about giving the vocabulary to deal
:34:10. > :34:15.with it. You are not in favour of any restrictions further than what
:34:15. > :34:19.we have based on the availability of it? I'm in favour of
:34:19. > :34:23.restrictions of violent and abusive content and child porn, of course.
:34:23. > :34:26.I don't imagine many people aren't in favour of that. But beyond that
:34:26. > :34:30.I think it is tricky, I think we have to start talking to our young
:34:30. > :34:33.people about what they are seeing. I would agree that there should be
:34:33. > :34:39.a lot more conversations between parents and children. I would also
:34:39. > :34:42.say teachers and children. We could do a better job, I think with sex
:34:42. > :34:45.education in introducing questions about internet and technology as
:34:45. > :34:48.part of that conversation that doesn't happen. I don't think there
:34:48. > :34:52.are many children who feel at the moment that is being dealt with
:34:52. > :34:56.very well at school. And sex education sometimes is a bit of a
:34:56. > :34:59.joke. Some how recognising what those problems are, talking to
:34:59. > :35:03.children about where they might come across, where they get their
:35:03. > :35:06.ideas about sex from, where they see what the possibilities are. We
:35:06. > :35:10.are worried about what those pressures on them are. We are
:35:10. > :35:12.worried about the peer pressures, but they could be more
:35:12. > :35:16.interventions. Many parents find it difficult enough just having the
:35:16. > :35:19.conversation about the birds and the bees leave alone a conversation
:35:19. > :35:25.about pornography. But that's pretty tricky stuff for a lot of
:35:25. > :35:28.people? I think the conversation they could have would be about well
:35:28. > :35:31.more about perhaps children learning to feel confident about
:35:31. > :35:35.what they think about their bodies and what they think could happen to
:35:35. > :35:40.their bodies. More about respect. More about what those situations
:35:40. > :35:43.are when they feel pressured by others. What happens in that peer
:35:43. > :35:47.culture. They don't have to necessarily say have you seen this,
:35:47. > :35:49.let's talk about what this means. But they could find ways of
:35:50. > :35:52.approaching so that they at least show their children they understand
:35:52. > :35:57.that they are open to those conversations that they understand
:35:57. > :35:59.the technology as well. What will come out, you would guess from this
:35:59. > :36:02.meeting tomorrow with Maria Miller and various companies in this
:36:02. > :36:06.field? I would guess tomorrow they are going to agree to do what they
:36:06. > :36:10.have been agreeing to do for a long time, which is to provide internet
:36:10. > :36:13.filters to customers on an active choice basis, where you say you
:36:13. > :36:18.want them or you don't. The Government have been pushing very
:36:18. > :36:23.hard for this to be turned on by default. But the problem is it
:36:23. > :36:28.lulls parents into a false sense of security in many instances. The
:36:29. > :36:33.TalkTalk filters were appalling, we tested them last year, you could go
:36:33. > :36:36.on for a basic Google search for pornographic images and they flew
:36:36. > :36:40.straight out. There is a danger with the default and the parents
:36:40. > :36:44.thinking that is a safe internet connection. Often they are not.
:36:44. > :36:48.are very much of the same point of view the only way to deal with this
:36:48. > :36:53.omnipresent phenomenon in our lives is for people to accept it is there
:36:53. > :36:59.and to some how encourage everyone to filter? That is not the only
:36:59. > :37:03.solution at all. The education and the parenting is absolutely part of
:37:03. > :37:07.the story. A lot more could be done with filters. The education itself
:37:07. > :37:10.is an acknowledgement that it is omnipresent? If you think about how
:37:10. > :37:14.we have dealt in society with pornography in the last decades, we
:37:14. > :37:17.have had a number of solution, we have thought it partly something
:37:17. > :37:20.that, sex education could be dealt with atle school. We do think of it
:37:20. > :37:23.as parenting problem. We also have found ways of restricting
:37:23. > :37:26.children's access. So I would disagree about the question of what
:37:26. > :37:31.the filters should do. Not because I think they are working brilliant
:37:31. > :37:34.low, but I think they could be made to work much better. I don't
:37:34. > :37:37.actually think it would be dreadful to have them switched on
:37:37. > :37:41.automatically as long as people were told how clearly to turn them
:37:41. > :37:46.off. If there wasn't a child in the house and if that was an easy thing
:37:46. > :37:50.to do. The problem, so I think you know it is making those filters
:37:50. > :37:53.better, making parents have confidence and trust in them, which
:37:53. > :37:57.they absolutely don't have at the moment. Then maybe some kind of
:37:57. > :38:00.independent oversight. I think your test was interesting. What we
:38:00. > :38:05.haven't really got at the moment is a trusted body that would do the
:38:05. > :38:09.kind of testing that would say OK this filter works, this works for
:38:09. > :38:14.violence but not pornography, these are the kinds of errors that get
:38:14. > :38:19.made, do you trust them. What do you want to decide.
:38:19. > :38:22.The new low- elected President of Iran was sounding more positive
:38:22. > :38:26.about relations between his country and the west than we have heard a
:38:26. > :38:30.senior figure in that country begged today. He said he wants a
:38:30. > :38:32.more positive relationship for his country with the rest of the world.
:38:32. > :38:41.Liberal and Conservative, they are relative terms, but could his
:38:41. > :38:43.victory in the elections open the door a chink at least, earlier he
:38:44. > :38:53.gave his first press conference, suggesting he wanted to be more
:38:53. > :38:56.open with the west. TRANSLATION: I said earlier, the Government
:38:56. > :39:01.wants to resolve all the problems that we have issues with, but only
:39:01. > :39:04.the ones we recognise. It needs to be with mutual respect for Iranian
:39:04. > :39:07.rights and bilateral interests. We should be able to solve problems
:39:07. > :39:14.with logic and moderation, the British Government is not excluded
:39:14. > :39:19.from this general principle. Now we have my guests. Rana Rahimpour and
:39:19. > :39:25.Nazenin Ansari. How much of a change do you think
:39:25. > :39:31.we are likely to see then? I think you will see changes of form,
:39:31. > :39:38.definitely, in the beginning. Also content in the sense that you will
:39:38. > :39:43.see more of a change perhaps Hassan Rohani will come to Europe, travel.
:39:43. > :39:46.There is definitely a sense of welcoming all over, not only in
:39:46. > :39:54.Iran, but also elsewhere, a sense of hope. That there has been a
:39:54. > :39:57.change, a change of attitude, a change of behaviour. Whether that
:39:57. > :40:03.will translate into policies, that remains to be seen. Are you simply
:40:03. > :40:06.waiting and seeing? I think I am quite positive, because we are, the
:40:06. > :40:11.mood in Iran is quite positive, people are very hopeful, contrary
:40:12. > :40:16.to how they felt in the last four years. The treatment of the
:40:16. > :40:21.Government has changed drastically, people were aed load to celebrate
:40:21. > :40:25.on the streets and -- allowed to celebrate on the streets and at
:40:25. > :40:32.times chant slogans asking for the release of political prisoners.
:40:32. > :40:35.This was very interesting, what little one saw from far away. The
:40:36. > :40:39.last elections we had demonstrations and police and the
:40:39. > :40:43.whole mood of Iran seems different? It is a huge surprise, even to
:40:43. > :40:46.Hassan Rohani himself, he wasn't expecting to win, at least in the
:40:46. > :40:50.first round. We still don't understand why. There are different
:40:50. > :40:56.reasons. It might be because I think the Supreme Leader was
:40:56. > :41:00.affected huge low by what's happened in 2009. I think it was
:41:00. > :41:04.damaging for the regime and since then the Arab Spring has happened,
:41:04. > :41:11.the situation in Turkey and in Syria, he might have got the
:41:11. > :41:14.feeling that he needs to ease the situation very slightly though for
:41:14. > :41:20.the opposition. So he probably won't see the situation that is
:41:20. > :41:30.happening in Turkey. What sort of a bloke is he? From what we know of
:41:30. > :41:30.
:41:30. > :41:38.Hassan Rohani, he went robes at 12 years old, a cleric all his life.
:41:38. > :41:44.He was the man who was in charge of the army, he served in the
:41:44. > :41:47.parliament but he has been the representative of Mr Khamenei on
:41:47. > :41:51.the supreme National Security Council. He was in charge of the
:41:51. > :41:57.Supreme National Security Council when actually the order was given
:41:58. > :42:04.to attack the student opposition. And at Glasgow Caledonian
:42:04. > :42:08.University as well? That happened when Mr Jack Straw was Foreign
:42:08. > :42:12.Minister. You make it sound like it was a sin? The entire mood at that
:42:12. > :42:17.time was different. There was the constructed engagment with Iran, Mr
:42:17. > :42:23.Straw went to Iran so many times. He speaks English with a slight gas
:42:23. > :42:33.weej accent? He should, he has a P -- Glaswegian accent?He should, he
:42:33. > :42:38.has a HHD. He under--A PhD. understood the questions today in
:42:38. > :42:43.English, so it shows he understands England. The key decisions are not
:42:43. > :42:46.in the hands of the President, all the things like the nuclear
:42:46. > :42:51.programme and things that cause difficulty there? They are not, but
:42:51. > :42:54.now they are in the bar againing position, he has the backing of 50%
:42:54. > :42:59.of the Iranian population. He's the most powerful elected politician in
:42:59. > :43:03.the country. Unlike the Supreme Leader. He is in a position that he
:43:03. > :43:08.might be able to convince the Supreme Leader to change the course
:43:08. > :43:13.of Iranian foreign policy. Will he be that influential? Well you know
:43:13. > :43:23.once again we have to be realistic, we didn't have a free and fair
:43:23. > :43:27.election. We have a rule by divine right. But at the same time he was
:43:27. > :43:31.the man when Iran signed the additional protocol. He has to
:43:31. > :43:38.deliver, he's the man who signed it, he's the man who basically
:43:38. > :43:42.throughout in the past actually the election time he was bragging this
:43:42. > :43:46.and that, that Iran was able to reach an engagment understanding
:43:46. > :43:50.with the west. So under his rule it has to. You have already given us
:43:50. > :43:55.that journalist cop-out only time will tell. And only time will tell.
:43:55. > :44:01.But how will we judge whether he is a really new broom? In the first
:44:01. > :44:10.instance I think what the people expect is a, number one, the least
:44:10. > :44:14.he can do is release the political prisoners specifically Mr Mousa Mr
:44:14. > :44:17.Karubi and others that is the least he can do. I think that is a great
:44:17. > :44:21.expectation. It is not the least. It is a lot to ask him to do,
:44:21. > :44:24.especially at this stage. He always said he is a moderate. I know the
:44:24. > :44:28.reason he became the President was because of the support of the
:44:28. > :44:33.opposition and the reformists. I know they want him to do this. But
:44:33. > :44:40.as he said today in the press conference, he needs time. He needs
:44:40. > :44:43.to get the other branches of power with long-term point of vow, it is
:44:44. > :44:48.a judiciary that is independent from his Government. I think we
:44:48. > :44:51.need to be realistic. There is hope and there is a chance of change.
:44:51. > :44:54.But to expect him to be able to release political prisoners
:44:54. > :44:58.overnight. I think the guy is still surprised he's the President.
:44:58. > :45:08.him a few nights, maybe. Thank you both very much.
:45:08. > :45:30.
:45:30. > :45:34.That's it, the deep space telescope was switched off today by the
:45:34. > :45:39.European Space Agency, it is drifting aimlessly about a million-
:45:39. > :45:43.and-a-quarter miles away in space. The condition is called being