:00:14. > :00:18.A devastating blow, Stephen Lawrence's father gives us his
:00:18. > :00:22.reings and r action to claims that the police tried to smear his
:00:22. > :00:26.family. I want a public inquiry, a full public inquiry into all the
:00:26. > :00:30.stuff that was happening during the time of my son's death right back
:00:30. > :00:34.up until now. I want everything to be revealed. An undercover cop says
:00:34. > :00:39.he was asked to find dirt on the Lawrence family and help discredit
:00:39. > :00:43.campaigners. How could this happen? We will hear tonight from an
:00:43. > :00:50.activist who knew the undercover police concerned, the Lawrence
:00:50. > :00:55.family lawyer and a former undercover Met family officer.
:00:55. > :01:01.Brazil. Protest leaders meet the President, we are in Rio to find
:01:01. > :01:05.out who they are and what they want? We want healthy, better
:01:05. > :01:10.education. We want a country free of corruption. The plane from
:01:10. > :01:15.Moscow took off to Havana full of journalist, but without the man who
:01:15. > :01:24.exposed the secret world of NSA and GCHQ. Where is Edward Snowdon. We
:01:24. > :01:34.will speak to Mark Urban and the former head of the NSA.
:01:34. > :01:40.And The Dark Knight? There were signs saying "die Jews".
:01:40. > :01:44.Rifkind mission brought -- the Kindertransport brought thousands
:01:45. > :01:47.out of Nazi Germany to Britain. We will hear their stories.
:01:47. > :01:51.Good evening there is nobody to peace for the Lawrence familiarly,
:01:51. > :01:56.just more anger and dismay. 20 years after Stephen Lawrence's
:01:56. > :02:01.murder, a former undercover police officers claims he was sent out by
:02:01. > :02:05.chiefs at Scotland Yard to try to dish the dirt, to discredit the
:02:05. > :02:08.Lawrence's and the family's campaign for justice. He came up
:02:08. > :02:11.with nothing, and today the Prime Minister described the allegations
:02:11. > :02:15.as horrific and pledged today get the truth out. The allegations
:02:15. > :02:22.revealed by Channel 4's Dispatches and the Guardian are to be the
:02:22. > :02:26.subject of two existing inquiries into police activities. But not as
:02:26. > :02:32.Neville Lawrence is demanding, a public inquiry.
:02:32. > :02:37.First we have this. Two decades ago black teenager Stephen Lawrence was
:02:37. > :02:42.stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack. It took 18 years to
:02:42. > :02:46.successfully convict two men. An inquiry later found the process had
:02:46. > :02:50.been dogged by institutional racism. But this morning a long shadow
:02:50. > :02:56.stretched longer still. It was alleged that as Stephen's family
:02:56. > :03:00.and friends grieved the policemen went undercover amongst them.
:03:00. > :03:05.wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the campaign, yes,
:03:05. > :03:10.there is this general remit. So had I, through my circles, come up with
:03:10. > :03:16.something along the lines of the family were political activists, if
:03:16. > :03:20.somebody in the family was involved in demonstrations. Drug dealers?
:03:20. > :03:23.Anything. What they would have done with the intelligence I can't call
:03:23. > :03:30.it, but that is our remit. Not just for them, that is always our remit
:03:30. > :03:35.when we are out there. After the vixs last year of two men for
:03:35. > :03:38.lawyer -- convictions last year of two men or the murder, there was an
:03:38. > :03:40.independent review ordered that police corruption shielded the
:03:40. > :03:44.killers of Stephen Lawrence. Today the Prime Minister was also quick
:03:44. > :03:47.to respond. This is worrying, that is why two investigations, one of
:03:47. > :03:51.them being led by the Chief Constable of another police force
:03:51. > :03:54.are under way. And the Home Secretary is acting swiftly to make
:03:54. > :03:59.sure that these investigations cover all of the potential
:03:59. > :04:02.allegations and we get to the bottom of this as rapidly as
:04:02. > :04:07.possible. After undercover police officer Mark Kennedy was revealed
:04:07. > :04:11.to have spent years infiltrating environmental groups, an inquiry
:04:11. > :04:15.then recommended greater scrutiny and management of undercover
:04:15. > :04:21.operations. Now two inquiries will look at these fresh revelations. An
:04:21. > :04:24.on going one into the met police's special demonstrations squad, or
:04:24. > :04:30.SDS, Operation Herne, it is a more general look into undercover
:04:30. > :04:34.policing. It is overseen by Mick Creedon, Chief Constable of
:04:34. > :04:36.Derbyshire. Barrister Mark Ellison is also already investigating
:04:36. > :04:42.allegations of corruption in the original Lawrence investigation. He
:04:42. > :04:46.will now have access to anything discovered about SDS involvement.
:04:46. > :04:50.In fact there is about 12-15 inquiries and reviews happening at
:04:50. > :04:55.the moment within the Met and outside, into undercover policing.
:04:55. > :04:58.But no-one inquiry is actually looking at the whole thing of every
:04:58. > :05:01.aspect. What Theresa May announced today doesn't go far enough. The
:05:01. > :05:06.fact is we don't know if this is still happening, it is not really
:05:06. > :05:12.good enough that the Met investigates itself on something
:05:12. > :05:16.this serious. Honestly, it worries me that it could still be happening.
:05:16. > :05:19.Jenny Jones is joined by the former Director of Public Prosecutions.
:05:19. > :05:23.Chief Constable Creedon, who is conducting one of the
:05:23. > :05:26.investigations into these matters, he's a police officer, obviously he
:05:26. > :05:32.said that actually the police are the best people to investigate the
:05:32. > :05:36.police. Well, no, they are not. Just as barristers are not the best
:05:36. > :05:39.people to investigate barristers or doctors are not the best people to
:05:39. > :05:43.investigate doctors, we need independents, we need some distance
:05:43. > :05:47.from what went on. We need the scrutiny of a judicial figure
:05:47. > :05:52.considering the material in public, issuing a considered report with
:05:52. > :05:55.findings and recommendations. Politicians of all sides have been
:05:56. > :06:01.shocked by these revelations. But the Government thinks that the time
:06:01. > :06:05.isn't right for a full scale public independent inquiry. Their dilemma
:06:05. > :06:09.is how to balance that decision with also reacting sufficiently to
:06:09. > :06:12.the public outcry. And over time their decision may come under
:06:12. > :06:18.pressure. Many in Westminster believe this morning's revelations
:06:18. > :06:22.are just the start of it. The undercover policeman alleged he
:06:22. > :06:27.had other targets, including Lawrence's best friend, Duwayne
:06:27. > :06:29.Brooks, who was with him on the night he died. Francis said he
:06:29. > :06:33.uncovered evidence to have Brooks arrested and charged with criminal
:06:33. > :06:38.damage. But the case of thrown out by a judge as an abuse of the legal
:06:38. > :06:44.process. Myself and another SDS officer went
:06:44. > :06:47.through the material we had, the media we had, and between us we had
:06:47. > :06:52.identified him participating in some criminality, perceived
:06:52. > :06:59.criminality. For many politicians the allegations don't fall into a
:06:59. > :07:04.vacuum, but they reenforce fears in some communities. It feeds
:07:04. > :07:07.perceptions, particularly among young people that the attitude the
:07:07. > :07:10.police have towards ethnic minorities in this country. The
:07:10. > :07:13.police only work through consent, it is so important they have the
:07:13. > :07:18.trust of all the communities that make up this great city in order to
:07:18. > :07:22.do their job properly. Anything that damages the trust is dangerous
:07:22. > :07:26.for all Londoners for the ability of the police to do a good job for
:07:26. > :07:28.you. It has been damaged today?It is difficult to think of how the
:07:28. > :07:32.response that the Lawrence family received from the police could have
:07:32. > :07:37.been any further from the response that they were entitled to expect
:07:37. > :07:41.when their son was brutally murdered on the streets of this
:07:41. > :07:47.city. Tonight the Lawrence family re-examined the events of 20 years
:07:47. > :07:50.a tomorrow more allegations in the Guardian. But Scotland Yard also
:07:50. > :07:56.went under cover in political groups.
:07:56. > :08:02.Earlier today I spoke to Stephen's father, Neville, who is in Jamaica.
:08:02. > :08:08.What do you make of Peter Francis's revelations? It is a devastating
:08:08. > :08:14.blow to my confidence, thinking that we have been through all of
:08:14. > :08:20.this before. We are had he hands of all the upheaval that has
:08:20. > :08:23.concerneded our lives for the past 20 years. Does it surprise you that
:08:23. > :08:27.the police were apparently looking for dirt on your family? I knew in
:08:27. > :08:33.the early days they were doing it. I didn't know the extent of what
:08:33. > :08:35.they were doing. Your former wife, Doreen, said she
:08:35. > :08:39.remembers thinking something strange was happening, because
:08:39. > :08:44.Special Branch wanted the names of all the people that came to pay
:08:44. > :08:47.their respects. What happened? had a blue book that we recorded
:08:47. > :08:52.the names of the people in the house every day. They wanted to see
:08:52. > :08:55.this book. We couldn't understand why they wanted to see the names of
:08:55. > :08:59.people who had come from as far as Birmingham to support us in our
:08:59. > :09:05.hour of need. We wouldn't give it to them. You didn't give them the
:09:05. > :09:08.book? No, we didn't. Because we couldn't see what connection the
:09:08. > :09:14.people that were in the house who came to support us had with the
:09:14. > :09:17.murder of hour son. So we refused to give them the book. Were you
:09:17. > :09:21.aware they were trying to collect and collate the information in
:09:21. > :09:25.another way? The fact that they were saying that we were
:09:25. > :09:32.investigating, we were interrupting the investigation was another
:09:32. > :09:35.things that made us suspicious. We couldn't see how an ordinary family,
:09:35. > :09:38.miles away from the investigation was interfering in the
:09:38. > :09:42.investigation. Can you tell me, you think that the police were saying
:09:42. > :09:46.that you were interfering with the investigation? Yeah, they kept
:09:46. > :09:50.saying that the family of interfering with the investigation.
:09:50. > :09:55.And we couldn't see how they were doing that. Because we were doing
:09:55. > :09:59.everything possible to try to help with the investigation. Did you
:09:59. > :10:04.actually have trust in the police at that time? Although we didn't
:10:04. > :10:11.have any trust in the police, we thought that the fact that we had
:10:11. > :10:15.so many public people and focus on them, even if we weren't really
:10:15. > :10:20.satisfied with what they were doing, we thought by the attention that
:10:20. > :10:24.the family had focused on them and from all the organisations that
:10:24. > :10:29.were involved, that they would do the right thing. Are you surs
:10:29. > :10:35.priced that the police held this back from the William Macpherson
:10:35. > :10:39.inquiry? I'm surprised, but I'm also really, what you say, I was
:10:39. > :10:43.getting to the stage where I was starting to feel as if they had
:10:43. > :10:49.done something wrong, they had apologised, so we can move on from
:10:49. > :10:54.there. And now 20 years later, to hear something like this. Does it
:10:54. > :11:00.make you angry? It has made me really, really angry. I'm starting
:11:00. > :11:05.to think what do I do now. Do I still try and have a kind of a
:11:05. > :11:09.relationship with these people are just cut ties with them completely?
:11:09. > :11:13.What do you want to happen now, Neville? I want a public inquiry, I
:11:13. > :11:17.want a full public inquiry into all the stuff that was happening during
:11:17. > :11:20.the time of my son's death, right back up until now. I want
:11:20. > :11:24.everything to be revealed so we don't have to have another year
:11:24. > :11:28.from now I don't want to hear anything else that comes out, any
:11:29. > :11:36.secrets. Do you think that you might take legal action? Well I'm
:11:36. > :11:38.talking to my lawyers now, because I feel this is a intrusion into my
:11:38. > :11:41.private life. Do you now recall conversations
:11:41. > :11:47.where you thought perhaps at the time it was innocent with the
:11:47. > :11:50.police, but you now realise they were fishing? Well from the first
:11:50. > :11:57.investigation, and all the fiasco that was happening, and all the
:11:57. > :12:02.things that were said, all the papers had gone missing, I started
:12:02. > :12:06.to doubt these people investigating the crime. What option do I have, I
:12:06. > :12:10.can't investigate the crime myself, the family couldn't do that, we had
:12:10. > :12:17.to rely on whosoever they sent to do it. Is there anything you want
:12:17. > :12:22.to say that I didn't ask you? I'm now four-and-a-half, nearly
:12:22. > :12:27.5,000 miles away from all my family, my daughter, my son, my grand kids,
:12:27. > :12:32.and for me to be dealing with something like this by myself is
:12:32. > :12:35.not very easy. Normally when there is a problem I'm in London and I'm
:12:35. > :12:40.surrounded by my solicitor, my friend and everybody who knows
:12:40. > :12:43.about the case. In Jamaica I have got nothing like that to help me
:12:43. > :12:48.with it. I have to be dealing with this by myself.
:12:48. > :12:53.Thank you very much indeed. right then.
:12:53. > :12:57.With me now is a member of the anti-racist group apparently
:12:57. > :13:02.infiltrated by undercover police. A former undercover policeman, Peter
:13:02. > :13:06.Bleksley, and Imran Khan, the policor representing Stephen
:13:06. > :13:09.Lawrence's mother, Doreen. Good evening all of you. Imran Khan, you
:13:09. > :13:12.heard Neville Lawrence saying there that he thought because there was
:13:12. > :13:16.so much interest in the case that the police would do the right thing.
:13:16. > :13:20.Now we have the allegations by Peter Francis that he came under
:13:20. > :13:25.pressure to dish the dirt, are you surprised? I should be surprised
:13:25. > :13:28.but I'm not sur pryed but because of the way the Met Police have been
:13:28. > :13:32.treating the family from day one. I was there within days of the murder
:13:32. > :13:35.happening, we saw police officers, and family liaison officers coming
:13:35. > :13:40.into the house and asking questions about who was there rather than
:13:40. > :13:44.going on to the streets. Asking for the blue book? Asking who was
:13:44. > :13:48.coming in and what they were coming for. It looked from the family's
:13:48. > :13:51.perspective that they were under the microscope when some how the
:13:51. > :13:56.killer was within the midst. Doreen said the killer of white and those
:13:56. > :14:05.who supported her were black, why look inside the house. You can see
:14:05. > :14:09.the impact on Neville, and I know you still act for Doreen, does she
:14:09. > :14:13.want an independent inquiry? does, the inquiry announced by the
:14:13. > :14:16.Prime Minister is not sufficient. We know from the undercover police
:14:16. > :14:19.officers he wanted the evidence to come out and the police stopped
:14:20. > :14:22.that. How can we trust the police and Mark Ellison doing things
:14:22. > :14:25.behind closed doors. At the moment she's pausing because she has asked
:14:25. > :14:30.me to write a letter to the commissioner with 13 key questions
:14:30. > :14:35.to be asked. If those questions are satisfactory, and if there is an
:14:35. > :14:41.apology, perhaps we don't need that inquiry. I'm sure you don't have
:14:41. > :14:48.the 13 questions off pat, but can you give us an idea? Who gave the
:14:48. > :14:52.intrusion, who gave the orders for questions asked during the inquiry,
:14:52. > :14:57.and what was done with it. The officer said nothing was found.
:14:57. > :15:02.What was the motive? Exactly.Peter Francis who appeared in the
:15:02. > :15:06.Dispatches programme tonight, he was known to you? That's right.So
:15:06. > :15:12.he infiltrated your group? Yeah. Explain what happened? We were very
:15:13. > :15:18.active, in fact we set up a campaign in 19887 in the Bexley and
:15:19. > :15:24.Greenwich area, very close to where Stephen was murdered because the
:15:24. > :15:29.BNP had set up their head quarter, we had done a the lot of work
:15:29. > :15:33.campaigning against racism and the BNP, warning the politicians at the
:15:34. > :15:37.time they were a danger in our community. We did a lot of work. We
:15:37. > :15:41.were organising very large protests, when Stephen was murdered we
:15:41. > :15:46.organised a big demonstration in the community. And Peter Francis
:15:46. > :15:52.came in soon after the murder? is when he came in. What did he do
:15:52. > :15:55.within the group? He have driving people around. He was dishing out
:15:55. > :15:59.leaflets. Somebody said he was very good at putting placards together,
:15:59. > :16:03.he put a lot of them together. One of the things that makes some
:16:03. > :16:07.members of our group now think well actually if somebody was going to
:16:07. > :16:12.be spying on us it was probably him was that he always wanted to egg
:16:12. > :16:18.people on to do things that our group weren't interested in. We
:16:18. > :16:21.were a large democratic peaceful. He was largely thinking there were
:16:21. > :16:24.militants and troublemakers around at that time? I think probably so.
:16:24. > :16:27.On the fringes of your group? think there is big questions that
:16:28. > :16:32.need to be asked about a policeman coming into an organisation and
:16:32. > :16:36.trying to egg people on to take part in criminal activity which we
:16:36. > :16:45.opposed. He would deny he did that. Peter Bleksley, on the broader
:16:45. > :16:51.point about, as it were, egging people on, we know from some of the
:16:51. > :16:57.other inquiries that undercover police officers were acting in a
:16:57. > :17:03.more high-profile roles? And acting as agent provoke ters, and inciting
:17:03. > :17:07.people to do things they shouldn't do. On this question of dishing the
:17:07. > :17:12.dirt on the Lawrence family. Is it possible the special demonstration
:17:12. > :17:17.squad, of which Peter Francis was a member, was going rogue over the
:17:17. > :17:22.Lawrence family in some way, badge of honour, or was it being signed
:17:22. > :17:25.off? I was working undercover at this time in 1993, into serious and
:17:25. > :17:30.organised crime. Did you know anything about the Lawrence
:17:30. > :17:36.investigation by undercover policing? I knew nothing about that
:17:36. > :17:40.or the existence of the special demonstration squad. Our unit was
:17:40. > :17:44.separate. Is it conceivable that the unit trying to find stuff out
:17:44. > :17:48.about the Lawrence family was rogue or likely to be signed off? I think
:17:48. > :17:54.it is completely inconceivable that these officers were acting off
:17:54. > :17:59.their own bat. Lord Condon said he had no knowledge, he neither signed
:17:59. > :18:04.off it off or had had knew anything about it. Not necessarily signed
:18:04. > :18:09.off to the officer of the Met? we were operating in serious orgd
:18:09. > :18:13.crime, we would need the authority of a Deputy Assistant Commissioner
:18:13. > :18:16.for every organisation. The reports seeking the permissions to act
:18:16. > :18:20.undercover would work up through the chain of command. Many senior
:18:20. > :18:25.officers would be aware of what we were trying to do. The thing is,
:18:25. > :18:28.when you hear about that, it is an impingement on democracy?
:18:28. > :18:35.Completely, I don't buy this that Lord Condon didn't know. I know he
:18:35. > :18:41.says he didn't. But if he didn't how is it that officers were acting
:18:41. > :18:45.with complete impunity. The boss take the hit? Absolutely, Sir fir
:18:45. > :18:48.Macpherson, very much from the army -- William Macpherson, very much
:18:49. > :18:54.from the army background, he said you don't blame the foot soldiers
:18:54. > :18:57.but those who gave the orders. If it goes all the way to Deputy
:18:57. > :19:00.Assistant Commissioner there must be some memos that passed through
:19:00. > :19:08.his office. He has some questions to answer. He was in charge when
:19:08. > :19:13.the inquiry took place. Was he at fault? The Guardian's front page
:19:13. > :19:18.tomorrow, another exclusive about Scotland Yard deploying undercover
:19:18. > :19:21.officers in political groups that sought to uncover corruption in the
:19:21. > :19:27.Metropolitan Police and campaign for justice for people dying in
:19:27. > :19:30.custody. This is why we need a thorough
:19:30. > :19:33.going inquiry. It is not good enough what we have at the moment,
:19:33. > :19:39.which is the police investigating themselves, or an inquiry which has
:19:39. > :19:41.been held in closed court. Secret court. We need protestors,
:19:41. > :19:46.environmental campaigners, trade unionists who have also been spyed
:19:46. > :19:50.on and blacklisted and all sorts of things. We need a thorough on going
:19:50. > :19:54.inquiry. I think this is not just a rogue unit or rogue individual. I
:19:54. > :19:58.think this is policy. There has been a campaign over recent years
:19:58. > :20:03.in this country to criminalise protestors. That's what the
:20:03. > :20:13.kettleing has been all about. That is why we need a real thorough
:20:13. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:24.inquiry. Is iten an apault on democracy? It is --Is it an
:20:24. > :20:28.assault on knockcy? Yes, and the judge has said so with the case of
:20:28. > :20:31.Mark Kennedy, that Intelligence Unit that was a successor to the
:20:31. > :20:34.SDS. A judge commented that they were operating against decent
:20:34. > :20:38.people wanting to express their lawful right to protest. That is
:20:39. > :20:42.not what undercover policing is about.
:20:42. > :20:46.When they protest in Brazil it is commended. But when we protest here
:20:46. > :20:50.we are criminals and we have this sort of surveillance, it is an
:20:50. > :20:54.attack on our democratic rights. Indeed Brazil's President, Dilma
:20:54. > :20:56.Rousseff, is having her first meeting about now with mbs of the
:20:56. > :21:01.protest movement who started the demonstration -- members of the
:21:01. > :21:05.protest movement that started the demonstrations that engulfed the
:21:05. > :21:08.country. In the beginning it was bus fares in Sao Paulo, that
:21:08. > :21:12.exploded in riots in city after city, with political loader
:21:12. > :21:14.struggling to work out what exactly was going on. We are in Rio to find
:21:14. > :21:24.out what those who took to the streets in their hundreds of
:21:24. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:41.Anger in a place renowned for relaxation. The Government doesn't
:21:42. > :21:45.respect our rights. On Rio's Copacabana Beach, they are
:21:46. > :21:49.denouncing the way their country is run. All over BR still the
:21:49. > :21:53.education is really, really -- Brazil, the education is really,
:21:53. > :21:58.really bad, the schools, the hospitals. We are tired of hearing
:21:58. > :22:04.that our country is only carnival, football and that's not true.
:22:05. > :22:11.These are educated, overwhelmingly middle-class Brazilians. Their fury
:22:11. > :22:15.long pent-up has astonished their rulers.
:22:15. > :22:20.Vito Fernades is typical of those who have taken to the streets all
:22:20. > :22:26.over Brazil. He's a new low- qualified pharmacist, working in a
:22:26. > :22:29.Government laboratory. He has -- newly qualified pharmacist, working
:22:29. > :22:33.in a Government laboratory. He has had opportunities but others
:22:33. > :22:38.haven't? We want better, healthy better education, and we want a
:22:38. > :22:41.country free of corruption. This is really an important event.
:22:41. > :22:45.How important is this event? This is huge, they have never done
:22:45. > :22:51.anything, and now we are trying to change and make a better place to
:22:52. > :22:55.live. He is marching against a left-wing
:22:55. > :23:00.Government that boasts it has pulled tens of millions out of
:23:00. > :23:07.poverty, made them more like the people in this crowd. So has the
:23:07. > :23:13.state, to some extent, become a victim of its own success.
:23:13. > :23:18.Salvo Brazil. Rapid development has turned a once
:23:18. > :23:22.poor nation into the world's seventh-biggest economy. Its
:23:22. > :23:26.inequalities are now more evident than ever. For most of the last ten
:23:26. > :23:31.years Brazil has been on the up and up. Unemployment is at a record low,
:23:31. > :23:36.the number of university students has doubled, but as the economy has
:23:36. > :23:40.grown so have expectations. And the boom has thrown the sorry state of
:23:40. > :23:45.the country's public serves into ever sharper relief.
:23:45. > :23:48.Hosting the football World Cup next year in Rio's rebuilt Maracana
:23:48. > :23:54.Stadium, and others around the country was intended as a crowning
:23:54. > :24:00.moment for the new Brazil. But for young people the competition and
:24:00. > :24:03.the �9 billion price tag has merely added to the feel-bad factor.
:24:03. > :24:10.we won everybody was really happen and celebrating it all around. It
:24:10. > :24:18.was like a wave. What went wrong, why are people no longer happy?
:24:18. > :24:23.ends up costing more and more to build these World Cup stadium. We
:24:23. > :24:27.saw that a lot of money that they didn't say would be involved
:24:28. > :24:33.started to be involved. And a lot of money that wasn't invested in
:24:33. > :24:39.education and health. So people start saying come on there is
:24:39. > :24:44.something wrong in it. We need to do something.
:24:44. > :24:48.President Dilma Rousseff had record high approval rates months ago.
:24:48. > :24:58.This morning she promised to fight corruption and spend more on public
:24:58. > :25:00.
:25:00. > :25:04.transport and he hadcation. For the protestors it was all too vague.
:25:04. > :25:12.Vito Fernades is taking me to his house in a lower middle-class
:25:12. > :25:17.suburb, where most people in recent years have had more to spend.
:25:17. > :25:22.His mother Clara, who teaches physical education, cooks mainly at
:25:22. > :25:28.weekends. On other days the family has a home help to do it. They have
:25:28. > :25:31.got a new TV, a new microwave, a new car. But they are not happy.
:25:31. > :25:38.Economic growth has slowed and inflation is up, and what use is
:25:38. > :25:43.money in your pocket if services are still third rate. TRANSLATION:
:25:43. > :25:48.Taxes are rising, we pay one tax after the other. People are happier
:25:48. > :25:55.because they can buy more, but they are losing in other areas,
:25:55. > :26:01.education is terrible. A lot of people can now afford to have
:26:01. > :26:05.insurance, but the quality of the private system is as bad as the
:26:05. > :26:09.public system. The health system is in chaos. It is an illusion we are
:26:09. > :26:19.better off. If you think back to how, let as
:26:19. > :26:23.say, your family was ten years ago, 20 years ago, hasn't it got more
:26:23. > :26:27.things now than it used to have? I'm not fighting for my family, I'm
:26:27. > :26:32.fighting for the whole population. We see a lot of people don't have
:26:32. > :26:36.access to basic education. There is no quality in the education
:26:36. > :26:42.provided. It is not that I don't have education but a lot of people
:26:42. > :26:47.don't have. We want everybody to have access to this. You are not
:26:47. > :26:52.fighting for yourselves but other people? Yeah, for the country.It
:26:52. > :26:57.is hard to believe all this started over a 6p increase in bus fares
:26:57. > :27:02.that has now been recinded any way. Now we are protesting about far
:27:02. > :27:08.bigger issues, including a new law that would limit corruption
:27:08. > :27:12.investigations. There is no good in reminding these people that
:27:12. > :27:16.Brazilians can use the ballot box to protest. No healthcare, no jobs,
:27:16. > :27:26.no justice, what do you want? is a democracy, why not vote for
:27:26. > :27:28.
:27:28. > :27:31.change? That is why we are here. I vote and I always lose. S this is
:27:31. > :27:37.the street where the Governor of Rio lives, the crowd are demanding
:27:37. > :27:41.to be let through, but the police won't let them. The horizontal
:27:42. > :27:49.nature of the protests, following others in Turkey, and elsewhere, is
:27:50. > :27:54.a source of strength and weakness. This man, an actor, admits he
:27:54. > :28:04.helped organise the protest through social media. But unsis he has no
:28:04. > :28:04.
:28:04. > :28:08.political ambitions. Insists he has no political ambitions. Without a
:28:08. > :28:12.leader or ideas won't this movement stop? People are saying that, but
:28:12. > :28:18.this has happened for four weeks without a leadership. It is getting
:28:18. > :28:26.bigger and bigger and bigger. They say they don't know what they want,
:28:26. > :28:30.but we know what we don't want. is not clear what you want, you
:28:30. > :28:35.want too many things at once? Brazil is under an ocean of
:28:35. > :28:39.corruption and robbery and bad politics.
:28:39. > :28:43.Another bigger march is planned in Rio tonight. For now the
:28:43. > :28:45.authorities seem to be waiting and hoping the wave of anger will
:28:45. > :28:48.eventually subside? It is difficult for the Government to respond to a
:28:49. > :28:52.movement without leaders and with so many different demands. But it
:28:52. > :28:55.may also be difficult for the movement itself to maintain
:28:55. > :29:00.momentum. But whatever it achieves it is a
:29:00. > :29:04.reminder that ref lugs usually spring from rising expectations and
:29:04. > :29:13.a warning that economic growth and conventional democracy don't
:29:13. > :29:18.guarantee contentment. The intelligence whistleblower,
:29:18. > :29:23.Edward Snowdon, seems to have given America and the the world's press
:29:23. > :29:30.the slip. While many thought he was in America, Liverpool Care Pathway
:29:30. > :29:38.was left warning that if Russia and chine ignore the rule not to allow
:29:38. > :29:43.him to travel there would be issues. While some say he's holed up at
:29:43. > :29:48.Sheremetyevo Airport, nobody can be entirely sure. Where is he? Moscow
:29:48. > :29:52.is the US official version of this. His supporters in Wikileaks say
:29:52. > :29:58.he's in a place of safety. We know what he did, he got on a plane in
:29:58. > :30:02.Hong Kong yesterday and flew to Moscow. That seems clear he was
:30:02. > :30:08.tipped off in Hong Kong by people that it was time to go. From there
:30:08. > :30:11.he was booked on a flight to Havana, which numerous journalists felt
:30:11. > :30:17.they were enterprising and got themselves on to the same flight
:30:17. > :30:21.this morning. But lo and behold when they went to seat 17 to see
:30:21. > :30:26.him and the Wikileaks lawyer who trapped with him, there was --
:30:26. > :30:30.travelled with him, there was nobody sitting in the seats.
:30:30. > :30:36.Havana flight may have been a ruse or he may have made other
:30:36. > :30:40.arrangements, some say Venezuela. The most likely destination would
:30:40. > :30:45.be Ecuador, which says it has received an asylum application from
:30:45. > :30:48.him and is considering it. It seems Ecuador provided him with the
:30:48. > :30:52.travel document on which he left Hong Kong, because his US passport
:30:53. > :31:00.had been cancelled. The Americans are aggregating, but what can they
:31:00. > :31:04.actually do -- agitating, but what can they actually do to get Himba
:31:04. > :31:11.back -- back -- him back? They are using that language, Liverpool Care
:31:11. > :31:16.Pathway decribing him as a man who betrayed his country, -- John Kerry
:31:16. > :31:21.decribing him as a man who betrayed his country. They say they are
:31:21. > :31:26.putting diplomatic pressure on all those involved. In this context
:31:26. > :31:28.must mean Russia, Ecuador, to arrest and deport him as soon as
:31:28. > :31:32.possible. They have been indulging in recriminations against the
:31:32. > :31:35.people in Hong Kong, who they say, ignored an arrest warrant, and the
:31:35. > :31:40.fact that his passport had been cancelled to allow him to travel.
:31:40. > :31:45.This today from the White House. We are just not buying that this
:31:45. > :31:48.was a technical decision by a Hong Kong immigration official. This was
:31:48. > :31:54.a tkhib rate choice by the Government to release -- deliberate
:31:54. > :32:01.choice by the Government to release a fugutive, despite an arrest
:32:01. > :32:05.warrant, that Haslem a neglect -- has a negative impact on the US-
:32:05. > :32:08.China relationship. Is he safe? is conceivable a country like
:32:08. > :32:14.Russia may decide it is in their interest to hold him or send him to
:32:14. > :32:17.the States. Joining me live from Washington is
:32:17. > :32:23.ambassador wools wools wools, former head of the C -- James
:32:23. > :32:29.Woolsey, and former head of the CIA. This is pretty embarrassing for
:32:29. > :32:33.America, isn't it? You have lost him? Yes, I think so, it started
:32:33. > :32:37.being embarrassing some time ago. This administration has had a habit
:32:37. > :32:44.of drawing a line in the sand and forgetting about it. Or saying that
:32:44. > :32:49.something is unacceptable and that accepting it, or telling Putin
:32:49. > :32:52.indirectly that they willable able to offer more concessions after --
:32:52. > :32:56.will be able to offer more concessions once President Obama
:32:56. > :33:01.was elected over an open microphone. They have put themselves in a
:33:01. > :33:04.situation that the Russian find it rather easy to push this
:33:04. > :33:07.administration around. And the Equadorians are learning from the
:33:07. > :33:10.Russians. You say this as a former adviser of
:33:10. > :33:14.President Clinton. If you were advising President Obama now, what
:33:14. > :33:19.would you say to do, there is no point in rattling a sabre if you
:33:19. > :33:26.are not going to do anything about it? Well, I think you have to start
:33:26. > :33:30.being serious about what you say. And this administration has not
:33:30. > :33:35.given the impression that when it draws and conclusion and says this
:33:35. > :33:39.far and no further that it really means it. It has given the
:33:39. > :33:44.impression that it is sort of kind of means it sometimes. That is not
:33:44. > :33:48.effective. You can't work that way. Yeah, but you are speaking quite
:33:48. > :33:53.plainly, so speak more plainly, tell me what you think America can
:33:53. > :33:57.possibly do. What can they do, can they expel the Chinese and Russian
:33:57. > :34:00.ambassador, what can they do? are a number of things that we have
:34:00. > :34:07.going on with the Russians, for example, the Russians have worked
:34:07. > :34:10.very hard to keep us from deploying ballistic missiles as a defence in
:34:10. > :34:13.Europe to help protect Europe and the like. We always give these
:34:14. > :34:22.Russian efforts to shut down our ability to improve our defences and
:34:22. > :34:28.the rest a very serious "oh yes we have to work together" speil. That
:34:28. > :34:32.is the wrong kind of approach. were going to suggest that one way
:34:32. > :34:35.of doing this is saying if you do not hold on to Edward Snowdon and
:34:36. > :34:42.hand him over. Assuming he's not in South America, we will make sure we
:34:42. > :34:46.can put patriot missiles in Europe? I don't think that, those are
:34:46. > :34:50.defensive systems. I don't think that kind of sort of tantrum works.
:34:50. > :34:56.You have to seriously and fundamentally change the way you
:34:56. > :35:00.interact with states like Russia and China. It will take some time.
:35:00. > :35:03.It has been going in the wrong direction for at least five years.
:35:03. > :35:09.Do you accept that if Edward Snowdon gets to South America the
:35:09. > :35:13.game is up. You will not get him back? It is unlikely that we would
:35:13. > :35:18.get him back soon. But Government as change and South America and
:35:18. > :35:26.some of the Governments are left- wing and didn't used to be, some
:35:26. > :35:29.have migrated one direction and back again. Things can change. But
:35:29. > :35:33.I think persistence and firmness with those Governments. Ecuador
:35:33. > :35:38.depends on us, the United States, for about half of the export market.
:35:38. > :35:46.We could start cutting back on that rather easily and quickly.
:35:46. > :35:52.course there are countries who believe who have been on the end of
:35:52. > :35:58.the surveillance who believe what Edward Snowdon d was a -- did was a
:35:58. > :36:04.block to democracy? There are not those who have been on -- a blow to
:36:04. > :36:11.democracy? There are those who have not been dealt a blow by this. If
:36:11. > :36:16.they are sheltering terrorist then they have to. There is nothing new
:36:16. > :36:21.about that. What is new and is sort of strangely new is that although
:36:21. > :36:24.the United States has had a programme for well over 30 years,
:36:24. > :36:28.sanctioned by the Supreme Court, that let our Government keep track
:36:28. > :36:31.on what is on the outside of first class mail envelope, but not the up
:36:31. > :36:36.side. This is essentially what has been going on now, essentially
:36:36. > :36:38.doing the same thing with respect to telephone message, not getting
:36:39. > :36:43.into the conversation itself but rather into what number was dialed
:36:43. > :36:45.and what number it was dialed from. It turns out that can be very
:36:45. > :36:52.helpful. We have stopped something approaching 50 terrorist attack,
:36:52. > :36:59.according to the FBI by utilising some of the loose technologies with
:36:59. > :37:09.called big data. By stopping that, by interfering with that, these
:37:09. > :37:13.people like Snowdon are putting a serious risk on a lot of people's
:37:13. > :37:16.lives. Some may disagree. Thank you for joining you. It is 75 years
:37:16. > :37:19.since the British Government sanctioned a mission to bring
:37:19. > :37:24.Jewish children into the UK in the wake of the devastation of Crystal
:37:24. > :37:28.Night, in Germany and Austria. In what one former child refugee said
:37:28. > :37:31.was an exceptional act of rescue. 10,000 children were put on
:37:31. > :37:35.transport by their parents desperate to get them to safety.
:37:35. > :37:38.Acts of commemoration are taking place this week. As survivors grow
:37:39. > :37:48.old, how should their stories be remembered by younger generations.
:37:49. > :37:53.
:37:53. > :37:59.Newsnight met four of them. We arrived here disorientated,
:37:59. > :38:03.depressed. I wrote in a book that we entered the train in our home
:38:03. > :38:13.town as children and left the train as adults. Because from here on we
:38:13. > :38:16.
:38:16. > :38:22.were responsible for our own lives for the rest of our lives.
:38:22. > :38:28.I slept through the actual night and got up in the morning to go to
:38:28. > :38:35.school and as I walked on to the street there were glass all over
:38:35. > :38:38.the street, there were crowds on the street, and I realised that
:38:38. > :38:45.something very sensational had happened. And I began to slowly
:38:45. > :38:55.realise that the Jewish shops it be vandalised. There were Nazis
:38:55. > :38:55.
:38:56. > :39:02.standing around in uniform. Big smears all over the wall saying
:39:02. > :39:10."die Jews" and so forth. That was Crystal Night, it was from then on
:39:10. > :39:15.in that the children's transport started.
:39:15. > :39:22.The most emotional thing I can remember was when we had to go to
:39:22. > :39:25.the railway station. It was at night as well. Because I don't
:39:25. > :39:35.think they wanted the population to know what they were doing. What was
:39:35. > :39:37.
:39:37. > :39:44.happening. Of course all these happening. Of course all these
:39:44. > :39:48.parents and children it was very hard. I mean I remember my father
:39:48. > :39:53.telling me that I would like it in England because I would be able to
:39:53. > :40:03.ride the horses and things like that. Oh dear, the reality wasn't
:40:03. > :40:08.
:40:08. > :40:14.like that at all. We always talk about the past when
:40:14. > :40:19.we are together, don't we. I still remember you ringing -- wringing
:40:19. > :40:25.that chicken's neck. Really, how old was I then. You were little.I
:40:25. > :40:31.think I remember being with Gerty, because she was older and I think I
:40:31. > :40:41.stuck, I was just with her. But I do remember the train stopping and
:40:41. > :40:42.
:40:42. > :40:46.people coming in and giving us a sweet drink. And then we carried on
:40:46. > :40:53.I cried, you know, and I let it go, one of the helpers on the journey
:40:53. > :40:57.said don't do that, you will set the younger ones off. When I
:40:57. > :41:06.arrived at Liverpool Street, one of my uncles came to meet us, because
:41:06. > :41:13.he was already in England. And he then took us to spend the night in
:41:13. > :41:18.London. And the following day we went to the first foster home in
:41:18. > :41:25.Hinkley in Leicestershire. Eve was given a bath, she wouldn't let them
:41:25. > :41:33.take her until I was in the bathroom with her. But after that I
:41:33. > :41:43.think they put her to bed and I don't remember a night when I
:41:43. > :41:44.
:41:44. > :41:50.didn't cry. I was home sick from age 12 till goodness knows when. It
:41:50. > :41:59.was a feeling you carried about with you.
:41:59. > :42:07.I think the whole atmosphere, I mean, it saved my life, of course,
:42:07. > :42:15.but it wasn't the house for children. Really in a way I was a
:42:15. > :42:21.maid, you know. I always remember talking to these little wood things
:42:21. > :42:30.that crawled along when I was polishing the floor. I sort of made
:42:30. > :42:37.friend with them! I remember at one point a card coming from my parents,
:42:38. > :42:47.I remember rushing down the stairs and I remember then being quite
:42:48. > :42:51.
:42:51. > :42:56.emotional. I will show you one of the books
:42:56. > :43:00.that I was talking about that my father actually left me. It is The
:43:00. > :43:06.Pentagon Building, five books of Moses, you can see it is rather
:43:06. > :43:13.worn. I was in a hospital in Turner's Green, I'm not sure how I
:43:13. > :43:19.learned the language, and I must have, adapting to living with 50
:43:19. > :43:25.youngsters up to the age of 15, 16. I'm told I was the youngest at that
:43:25. > :43:33.age. Learning to play games with them. Learning to be a youngster in
:43:33. > :43:39.a new country and trying to adapt myself.
:43:39. > :43:43.I remember being taken by the school to a play in the West End.
:43:43. > :43:48.It was some pantomime I think, it was in the middle of the play that
:43:48. > :43:56.I was sitting there with all the other students when I suddenly said
:43:56. > :44:00.to myself, I'm an orphan. I suddenly realised it then. I
:44:00. > :44:07.understood that the chances of my parents still being alive after
:44:07. > :44:17.what I had heard were minimal. It was just I suddenly came to the
:44:17. > :44:18.
:44:18. > :44:22.realise of the fact, to face it boy, you are an orphan.
:44:23. > :44:26.Any other suggestion? A better place. I go out to schools to teach
:44:26. > :44:32.about Kindertransport, for a number of reasons. One is that the story
:44:32. > :44:37.of the past is important to the future. To go out I need to teach
:44:37. > :44:42.and to talk about it and not just to let the children read in the
:44:42. > :44:49.book about it, but rather to meet somebody who came through, at least
:44:49. > :44:55.on the kinder transport. -- Kindertransport. So that they too
:44:55. > :45:00.have a much better understanding. We begin the commemorations and
:45:00. > :45:05.celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the Kindertransport.
:45:05. > :45:10.The important message is that, about the Kindertransport of what
:45:10. > :45:20.it means and what it was and relating it to the background of
:45:20. > :45:24.
:45:24. > :45:34.the issue of the Holocaust. It will be remembered, especially by the
:45:34. > :45:35.
:45:36. > :45:41.Jewish nation. But anybody else I don't know? A lot of people think
:45:41. > :45:46.we are milking it. That it's too much, it should be forgotten. But
:45:46. > :45:56.the thing is it is not forgotten because it is happening to
:45:56. > :45:58.
:45:58. > :46:07.communities as well, other societies. We experienced too much
:46:07. > :46:11.too soon. That is probably the epitaph of our youth. Rembering the
:46:11. > :46:15.Kindertransport. That is it for us from tonight, I will be back
:46:15. > :46:19.tomorrow. We leave you with gridlock and fireworks in Gaza,