:00:14. > :00:17.junkie economy? Addicted to low- interest rates and printed money.
:00:17. > :00:21.Where even the prospect of not getting a hit leaves us reeling.
:00:21. > :00:27.Global markets have been sliding ever since the Americans hinted
:00:27. > :00:31.about not printing any money. Is it a drug we can give up? Also tonight
:00:31. > :00:34.the immigration loophole some British citizens are using to get
:00:34. > :00:38.their relatives into Britain by way of another European country. We are
:00:38. > :00:44.doing it because we have no other option. We will cheat if it means
:00:44. > :00:47.we can stay together for the rest of our I have lives. What has
:00:47. > :00:51.happened? Cambridge have stopped. There is a man swimming between the
:00:51. > :00:57.boats. The man has been kicked out of Britain for this, he disrupted
:00:57. > :01:00.the Oxford and Cambridge boat race, and is to be deported for not being
:01:00. > :01:06.conducive to the public good. Trenton Oldfield is here to explain
:01:06. > :01:12.why he shouldn't be set packing. graphic new documentary follows the
:01:12. > :01:16.original Suharto death squads from 60s Indonesia as they delight of
:01:16. > :01:26.re-enacting the destruction of hundreds of alleged communists. We
:01:26. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:29.will ask why they revelled in recreating their horrific crimes.
:01:29. > :01:32.Good evening, is it time for an intervention for the good of our
:01:33. > :01:36.nation's health, for a long time now our dear friend the British
:01:36. > :01:41.economy has had a problem, we can't ignore it any longer. It is
:01:41. > :01:45.addicted to cheap money it has been getting from a bloke in
:01:45. > :01:51.Threadneedle Street. In a week that global markets reacted so badly to
:01:51. > :01:54.the idea that the US Government would stop their printing programme,
:01:54. > :01:59.we ask can we go back to the monetary policies of the past, or
:01:59. > :02:02.are we permanently hooked on cheap cash and low interest rates?
:02:02. > :02:06.Suddenly the global markets are turbulent again. There is a credit
:02:06. > :02:11.crunch in China, across the world people are selling off both company
:02:11. > :02:15.shares and Government bonds. Because Europe is still the weakest
:02:15. > :02:20.link in the hole, fragile global recovery and we are exposed to it,
:02:20. > :02:24.there is worry there as well. Last week the boss of the US
:02:24. > :02:29.Central Bank, Ricardo Berna, gave the long-awaited signal that he's
:02:29. > :02:34.about to start withdrawing some of the $2 trillion printed under
:02:34. > :02:38.quantitative easing. Under QE the Fed is currently buying up to 90%
:02:38. > :02:43.of all US bonds issued each month. That has kept the dollar low and
:02:43. > :02:49.the effective interest rate the US pays to borrow at below zero.
:02:49. > :02:53.Quantitative easing works by making it unprofitable to own Government
:02:53. > :02:59.bonds, and pushing capital into more risky markets, shares,
:02:59. > :03:05.property, gold and even the virtual currency, Bitcoin. By signals an
:03:05. > :03:13.end to QE, Bernanke sparked a sell- off in the stock markets. This is
:03:14. > :03:18.what happened. Here is the S & P, the FTSE and the nick kie. All
:03:18. > :03:22.falling markedly since the middle of May. Just as the world gets used
:03:22. > :03:25.to that, there has been a mini- credit crunch in China. For the
:03:25. > :03:30.past five years the Chinese economy has been run on cheap credit,
:03:30. > :03:33.created by the Government. Using soft loans China switched from
:03:33. > :03:38.consumer groups to massive infrastructure projects to help
:03:38. > :03:43.ride out the global downturn. But this year growth has slowed to 7.7%.
:03:43. > :03:48.Instead of simply turning the taps on more, China's Central Bank has
:03:48. > :03:54.tightened credit. This is what has happened to the InterBank lending
:03:54. > :03:58.rate, the SHIBOR, the Chinese version of LIBOR has spiked, making
:03:58. > :04:01.it hard for some companies to borrow, some think this is the sign
:04:01. > :04:07.of something bigger, a Chinese slowdown. What does it all mean
:04:08. > :04:10.here? On Monday Mark Kearney the new boss of the Bank of England
:04:10. > :04:13.takes over. Here we have quantitative easing, but unlike in
:04:14. > :04:17.America we have a long and deep austerity programme under way, and
:04:17. > :04:23.a weak recovery. So not contend with printing money, the Government
:04:23. > :04:27.has asked him to do more, ignoring the threat of inflation and pegging
:04:27. > :04:30.interest rates to zero for years to come. The man he will take over,
:04:30. > :04:34.Lord Mervyn King, seemed to encourage that today. I think
:04:34. > :04:38.people have rather jumped the gun in thinking this means an imminent
:04:38. > :04:42.to normal levels of interest rates, it doesn't. Until markets see in
:04:42. > :04:48.place policies to bring about that return to normal economic
:04:48. > :04:52.conditions there is no prospect for sustainable recovery. Without a
:04:52. > :04:56.prospect for sustainable recovery markets can understand it will not
:04:56. > :05:02.be sensible to return to normal interest rates. In Britain all this
:05:02. > :05:05.market shaking matters, because the fear is we become quantitative
:05:05. > :05:09.easing junkies. This graph shows the effective interest rate the
:05:09. > :05:12.Government borrows at over ten years. As you can see it has been
:05:12. > :05:16.falling, in part because we got the deficit down, in part because we
:05:16. > :05:20.did a lot of quantitative easing, and in part because the world
:05:20. > :05:23.calmed down. Now at the very end it is starting to tick back up again,
:05:23. > :05:28.that is a direct reflection of all the problems in the world I have
:05:28. > :05:31.just described. Lord Mynerss is the Labour peer who
:05:31. > :05:35.had a career in finance before serving as City Minister in Gordon
:05:35. > :05:40.Brown's Government. John Redwood is a Conservative MP and chair of the
:05:40. > :05:43.party's economic affair committee, and George Buckley is the Chief UK
:05:43. > :05:47.Economist at Deutsche Bank. John Redwood, has cheap money been good
:05:47. > :05:52.for the country? I think cheap money was a necessary evil to try
:05:52. > :05:57.to make sure the recession didn't get worse and spiral out of control
:05:57. > :06:00.after the credit crunch in 2007/08. From the savers' point of view it
:06:00. > :06:04.has been very bad news. Your natural constituency? You have to
:06:04. > :06:08.weigh it up, some people gain, those who borrowed a lot of money,
:06:08. > :06:13.some people lost, the savers, who didn't have overall impact on
:06:13. > :06:16.spendable income, one lot won and one lot lost. It was also much
:06:16. > :06:19.easier for the public rather than the private sector. A lot of people
:06:19. > :06:23.are having to pay higher interest rates than half a per cent as we
:06:23. > :06:27.are told in the short-term rate. is almost the default position, are
:06:27. > :06:30.we addicted to it? I think this Government and probably the new
:06:30. > :06:33.Government and the Bank of England will say they will carry on with
:06:33. > :06:37.very low official interest rates for longer. They may find that bond
:06:37. > :06:40.rates, medium-term rates go up a bit because of the world situation,
:06:40. > :06:44.they may find that banks continue to require higher interest rates in
:06:44. > :06:49.the private sector, as they have been doing throughout the last two
:06:49. > :06:53.or three years. I wouldn't adirected, but it is -- addicted,
:06:53. > :06:56.but it is part of the recovery process put in place. Are we
:06:56. > :06:59.addicted? We needed quantitative easing, had we not had the amount
:06:59. > :07:02.that was done we would be in a situation that is a lot worse. The
:07:02. > :07:07.only good thing about this, this is probably one of the reasons I don't
:07:07. > :07:11.think we are addicted, is that had we not done QE, and in terms of
:07:12. > :07:14.people who have taken on loans, we have seen some numbers from the
:07:14. > :07:17.British Bankers' Association, saying we have had a reasonable
:07:17. > :07:21.increase in the number of people taking out mortgage debt. Which the
:07:21. > :07:25.Government has been desperate to have. That is encouraging news, but
:07:25. > :07:27.there haven't been that many people who have taken out debt at the
:07:27. > :07:34.exceptionally low interest rates. That is the only good bit of news
:07:34. > :07:38.we have seen. When you get a hint from Bernake that next year the
:07:38. > :07:43.quantitative easing will be put back, there is such instability in
:07:43. > :07:46.the markets they can't take the news? It tells you how effective
:07:46. > :07:48.quantitative easing has been, it tells you how much interest rates
:07:48. > :07:52.were brought down by quantitative easing. How much is our response
:07:52. > :07:56.conditioned to it now? We needed to have this level of interest rate.
:07:56. > :08:01.Do you think it is a good addiction? I don't think it has
:08:01. > :08:03.been used properly. It bought time, that time has not been used
:08:03. > :08:06.productively. From the beginning you didn't think this would happen
:08:06. > :08:11.down the line? I don't think anybody foresaw that the recession
:08:11. > :08:15.would last this long. We are now talking about a major part of the
:08:15. > :08:19.gilt-edged market being owned by the Government. The Government has
:08:19. > :08:24.issued debt and bought the debt back, it has moved money from the
:08:24. > :08:27.left to the right pocket. We will have to see from the new governor a
:08:27. > :08:31.real change in more unconventional policies. Even cancelling out the
:08:31. > :08:34.two sides of the equation. whole idea, when it was brought in
:08:34. > :08:38.by a Labour Government that eventually this would kick-start
:08:38. > :08:43.growth, where is the growth? We have seen growth in America, we
:08:43. > :08:46.haven't seen it here? We have seen a positive stimulus to the economy,
:08:46. > :08:49.the Bank of England evidence is very strong. We are seeing further
:08:49. > :08:53.evidence of that. But fiscal policy has held the economy back. You
:08:53. > :08:58.can't put all the responsibility for growth on to monetary policy.
:08:58. > :09:03.What do you think about the Lord Mynerss idea that we should be
:09:03. > :09:06.writing off some of the debt now? don't agree with that, or that
:09:06. > :09:09.fiscal policy has been wrong. This Government has increased current
:09:09. > :09:13.spending in the first three years in office, just as Labour did when
:09:13. > :09:16.it was in office. The borrowing is still at a very high level. There
:09:16. > :09:20.is every evidence that there is plenty of fiscal stimulus in the
:09:20. > :09:25.economy. Where is the growth, you say? Where is the growth?There has
:09:25. > :09:28.been some growth, and there has also been a very big contraction of
:09:28. > :09:31.our two big lead sectors of the previous decade, oil and gas has
:09:31. > :09:35.contracted because the reservoirs are getting old, and banking and
:09:35. > :09:38.financial services and business services have been very badly
:09:38. > :09:41.walloped by the credit crunch under the previous Government. When your
:09:41. > :09:46.two lead sectors are badly damaged, you have to run very fast to catch
:09:46. > :09:49.up. You can't do much about the first sector, the oil price is so
:09:49. > :09:53.volatile, but you could have for the second one? The Government
:09:53. > :09:55.could have introduced supply side reform, and increased capital
:09:55. > :09:59.expenditure rather than reduce. was your Government that cut it.
:09:59. > :10:02.One of the problems in Government accounting, this is not a party
:10:02. > :10:05.political point, is we lump capital expenditure together with revenue
:10:05. > :10:08.expenditure. The one thing we should be doing when we have excess
:10:08. > :10:12.comasity in the economy is building roads, -- capacity in the economy,
:10:12. > :10:16.is building roads, schools and new railways, this Government has been
:10:16. > :10:19.very slow to do that. You are an economist for the bank, would
:10:19. > :10:24.capital projects have made a massive difference, they seem to
:10:24. > :10:29.have in America? We can look at the mull pliers, in terms of what an
:10:29. > :10:32.increase -- multipliers, in terms of what an increase on current
:10:32. > :10:36.spending does to the economy and capital spending. When you raise
:10:36. > :10:40.capital spending it does more to raise GDP than current spending.
:10:40. > :10:43.Capital spending is very important. This Government has been shy of big
:10:43. > :10:47.capital spend and projects? I don't think it has at all. The previous
:10:47. > :10:50.Government made extreme low large cuts in future capital programmes.
:10:50. > :10:55.This Government has put a little bit of those cut back and wants to
:10:55. > :10:59.put a lot more and has come up with the National Infrastructure Plan.
:10:59. > :11:04.Those cuts were in the eye of the storm, not part of a long-term
:11:04. > :11:08.policy. Set out for the following five years. They were your long-
:11:08. > :11:12.term policy. They weren't, there wasn't a five-year commitment to
:11:12. > :11:16.fiscal policy in 2010. There was a rolling plan.
:11:16. > :11:21.You would have returned to big capital projects? I don't know HS2
:11:21. > :11:26.would have been brought forward? have only to look at our motorways
:11:26. > :11:33.and roads to see plenty of holes that need to be filled. This is
:11:33. > :11:38.precisely what John MaynardCaines says we should be doing. You are
:11:38. > :11:43.saying that capital projects have huge spending that some other
:11:43. > :11:46.projects don't? I agree some have that, but there are others which
:11:46. > :11:50.bring huge revenue losses in the future. That is not a good idea.
:11:50. > :11:53.The Government isk looing at what will make the most impact,
:11:53. > :11:58.broadband is a good project that they are encouraging. But if you
:11:58. > :12:05.want a good railway it takes ten years to go through all the perMiGs
:12:05. > :12:09.and requirements. Looking ---- permissions and all requirements.
:12:09. > :12:13.How worried should we be about the latest tremors in China? Interest
:12:13. > :12:19.rates need to be normalised. They need to be nominal GDP plus one or
:12:19. > :12:24.two per cent. At the moment they are less than half that level.
:12:24. > :12:28.they ever get to 5%? It will, that is big issues for people on
:12:28. > :12:31.interest-only mortgages or fixed rate mortgages. In Japan, 20 years?
:12:31. > :12:35.I would hope regardless of the mismanagement of the economy by
:12:35. > :12:38.this Government that we are not set for 20 years of recession.
:12:38. > :12:42.Seriously what do you think? think it is worth bearing in mind
:12:42. > :12:45.that at the moment ten-year interest rates are 2.5%. That is
:12:45. > :12:48.not, even after having risen so much after the last week, it is
:12:48. > :12:53.still not a number that suggests the market is convinced that this
:12:53. > :12:57.recovery is serious. 2.5% is not consistent with a strong recovery.
:12:57. > :13:00.What would convince the market? market would have to raise or see
:13:00. > :13:04.interest rates higher than that to be convinced. The problem is when
:13:04. > :13:07.interest rates go up you start to worry that it could have a negative
:13:07. > :13:12.feedback loop. This is exactly why we are so worried about the speed
:13:12. > :13:17.in the rise of interest rates we have seen. Ben Bernake will think
:13:17. > :13:22.about scaling back QE. We did that, we stopped QE on a single day back
:13:22. > :13:29.in October in 2012, it didn't have this impact on the UK markets. But
:13:29. > :13:34.the US is so much important and has an im We are living in America's
:13:34. > :13:44.world? We, because she does more on a bigger scale and in a bigger
:13:44. > :13:47.
:13:47. > :13:52.economy. Bernake saying to the Chinese that you have lent too much
:13:52. > :13:57.and you have to stop, that caused the crisis, we have to catch if the
:13:57. > :14:00.Chinese back off a bit or precipitate a worse situation in
:14:00. > :14:06.China, that will be bad for the rest of the world. You began the
:14:06. > :14:10.conversation that this is bad for savers in your constituency, when
:14:10. > :14:13.will we return to that? He don't see the official rate going up this
:14:13. > :14:17.parliament, -- I don't see the official rate going up this
:14:17. > :14:20.parliament. The economy will grow from here but not fast enough to
:14:20. > :14:24.justify suddenly jacking up official rates. I think official
:14:24. > :14:27.rates in America will stay longer for longer too. They want to get
:14:27. > :14:31.unemployment substantially down before they increase them they have
:14:31. > :14:37.said. The paradox of Government policy in monetary areas is we are
:14:37. > :14:43.repeating the same mistakes that were made in monetary policy made
:14:43. > :14:46.by the Bank of England in 2006/07. We are stoking up asset bubbles and
:14:46. > :14:49.creating uncertainty and risk in the economy. There will be a need
:14:49. > :14:53.for adjustment, whether it is in the course of the parliament or
:14:53. > :14:57.beyond is a matter for debate. But interest rates will have to go up
:14:57. > :15:00.in due course. We're joined but our political
:15:00. > :15:03.editor, because tomorrow the Chancellor, George Osborne, will
:15:03. > :15:07.announce his Spending Review. Allegra, damp squib, lots of tweets
:15:07. > :15:10.have gone out. Do we know much? very much, it is very unusual that
:15:10. > :15:13.the Treasury doesn't say very much the night before one of these. It
:15:13. > :15:17.makes me think he might be up to something. But actually all
:15:17. > :15:22.suggestions are that he would quite like tomorrow to be boring. Because
:15:22. > :15:24.he has got in trouble in the past with his financial statements. The
:15:24. > :15:27.thing that is relevant to the contributions by the previous
:15:27. > :15:31.guests is that they thought that the deficit would have been coming
:15:31. > :15:34.down, all sorts of things with growth not transpiring, it means
:15:34. > :15:37.that actually George Osborne had to extend it through to 2018. Which is
:15:37. > :15:43.a very long time in the future. Tomorrow what we are getting is the
:15:43. > :15:49.first tranche of how you get on that new trajectory, it is �11.5
:15:49. > :15:53.billion. It is something, but it is just a dress rehearsal. So we get
:15:53. > :15:59.cuts tomorrow but to get the target of 2018, into the next parliament,
:15:59. > :16:02.we will have another �13 billion in 2016/17, and after that yet more.
:16:02. > :16:08.Tomorrow we learn a little bit about what life will be like in the
:16:08. > :16:15.next parliament. But not a huge amount. I also sense that it will
:16:15. > :16:19.be a terrible phrase, "salami slicing", efficiencies here and
:16:19. > :16:23.backroom savings there. There will be pain, but he wants to stop the
:16:24. > :16:27.fireworks. The thing about these is that Labour has now moved on to
:16:27. > :16:31.broadly supporting them. A lot of the politic has gone out of it.
:16:31. > :16:35.Thank you very much indeed. Well the Government has been trying
:16:35. > :16:38.to reduce immigration from outside the EU, including restrictions on
:16:38. > :16:42.language and earnings and relatives trying to enter the country. But
:16:42. > :16:46.some Britons are finding a way round these obstacles by going and
:16:46. > :16:50.working in Europe, another country in Europe for a number of months,
:16:50. > :16:57.so their cases can be considered under EU law not British law. And
:16:57. > :17:00.so, as BBC Asian Network reporter Katherine Nye explains, it can be
:17:00. > :17:09.easier for Europeans to get their relatives living outside the EU
:17:10. > :17:12.into this country than it is for British people. This woman is from
:17:12. > :17:21.the Czech Republic, married to her husband from Pakistan, and they
:17:21. > :17:25.live in Leeds. Their daughter chats in Czech, Urdu and English. When I
:17:25. > :17:32.met my husband, his original visa had already expired, after we got
:17:32. > :17:37.married in the mosque we applied for his residence as a permanent
:17:37. > :17:47.member of the EU citizens. decided I will not go back to
:17:47. > :17:51.Pakistan any more, I will start my life here. Ahmed told me he's
:17:51. > :18:01.pleased he's married to a European, and he's right to be. If she were
:18:01. > :18:01.
:18:02. > :18:06.British, on today's rules he wouldn't be able to live here. When
:18:06. > :18:11.it comes to bringing in family from oversees Europeans have stronger
:18:11. > :18:14.rights than British citizens. They are not affected by our
:18:14. > :18:19.Government's tightening immigration rules. Put simply, it is easier for
:18:19. > :18:21.a French or Polish man, living in London, to bring in his American or
:18:22. > :18:27.Indian wife than it is for someone British.
:18:27. > :18:31.This is why. Within the EU, and the wider European Economic Area, or
:18:31. > :18:36.EEA, each country tries to control the flow of people coming in
:18:36. > :18:41.through its own immigration rules. But, overriding all of these are
:18:41. > :18:46.the EEA's overarching rights, which include free movement of workers,
:18:46. > :18:49.and crucially, their family. These rights kick in when people move
:18:49. > :18:57.between countries and are economically active. This means
:18:57. > :19:04.that when Czechs move to the UK for work, it allows her non-European
:19:04. > :19:08.partner to live in the UK with her. Each year around 20,000 non-
:19:08. > :19:18.European family members of Europeans, like this man, come to
:19:18. > :19:19.
:19:19. > :19:23.live in the UK. It may seem very unfair, but if a
:19:23. > :19:27.British person wants to gain the same rights they can. They can
:19:27. > :19:37.leave the UK, exercise their treaty rights by working in Europe and
:19:37. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:45.then come back, effectively having made themselves European.
:19:45. > :19:51.Chris Hall is doing just that. He's an actor and stunt man from
:19:51. > :19:56.Swindon. He met Sarah, a screenwriter, while working in
:19:56. > :20:01.Chicago. And they married in December. Some of Chris's acting
:20:01. > :20:07.work is freelance, so he doesn't officially meet the �18,600 the
:20:07. > :20:11.Government now says he must earn to have Sarah live with him in the UK.
:20:11. > :20:15.The couple dramatically fled the UK when they realised Sarah's visa
:20:15. > :20:20.wouldn't be extended. So activate his treaty rights they have moved
:20:20. > :20:25.to Paris, and Chris has got a job in a bar.
:20:25. > :20:29.Sarah was told about this route by a friend. I put a thing on Facebook
:20:30. > :20:35.that was like I have to leave the country in 48 hours, come say
:20:35. > :20:39.goodbye to me. Original low I was like I'm going to have to --
:20:39. > :20:45.original low I was like I will have to fly back to the states, and she
:20:45. > :20:48.was like go to France and somewhere in the EU, and there is something
:20:48. > :20:57.called surrender same, she will explain it when I got there she
:20:57. > :21:02.said. I was like, OK. This method, quitting the UK,
:21:02. > :21:10.exercising your treaty rights and coming back to be treated like a
:21:10. > :21:15.European citizen, it is known as the Saringder Singer route, named
:21:15. > :21:19.after the case that allowed Britons to do that. I talked to her on-line,
:21:19. > :21:23.when we knew all of the details. It was really, really crazy what we
:21:23. > :21:27.did. The couple have been in Paris since
:21:27. > :21:32.February, and will stay another two months while Chris collects proof
:21:32. > :21:36.that he has been exercising his treaty rights. He will take to the
:21:36. > :21:39.border, payslips, utility bills and bank details. It feels like the
:21:39. > :21:42.whole thing is a numbers game, they are always talking about
:21:43. > :21:47.immigration and how they want to get it down and combat it and make
:21:47. > :21:57.sure they are doing the job set to do. I'm a British citizen, if we're
:21:57. > :22:01.
:22:01. > :22:05.in there somewhere you are cracking down on the wrong people.
:22:05. > :22:08.British citizens can do the route in any country within the European
:22:08. > :22:11.Economic Area. But a large proportion are choosing Ireland
:22:12. > :22:16.because it is close by and there is no language barrier when looking
:22:16. > :22:22.for work. Here in Dublin there is a growing community of people
:22:23. > :22:28.exercising their treaty rights in order to get a family into the UK.
:22:28. > :22:32.People like Sunil, an actuary from Reading. She's original low from
:22:32. > :22:36.Australia, she moved to the UK more than ten years ago and is now a
:22:36. > :22:39.British citizens. She's bringing her parents in from Australia, and
:22:39. > :22:45.says she will pay for private healthcare for them. The three of
:22:45. > :22:50.them are living in a temporary flat in in Dublin.
:22:50. > :22:55.Sunil has up a group called Brit Sits to show others how to use the
:22:55. > :22:58.route. Today she is advising a Scottish woman how to bring in her
:22:58. > :23:03.Russian mother. If you have information on how we can proceed
:23:03. > :23:07.with this. More than happy to help. New rules brought in last July make
:23:07. > :23:11.it effectively impossible to bring dependant relatives into the UK
:23:11. > :23:13.from outside Europe. Why do you feel it is your right to
:23:13. > :23:18.have your parents in the UK with you, when obviously the Government
:23:18. > :23:22.is trying to stop so many people bringing in a lot of relatives into
:23:22. > :23:26.the UK? By definition someone can only have two parents, so there is
:23:26. > :23:30.no real room for abuse there. My parents aren't coming here to abuse
:23:30. > :23:34.the system, to claim benefit, but I'm sure if someone just wanted to
:23:34. > :23:38.be benefit scroungers it would be easier to do it in your country of
:23:38. > :23:42.citizenship. By my having to go through this EU route, what they
:23:42. > :23:47.are encouraging people to do is be able to claim benefits. Because if
:23:47. > :23:51.you go down the EU route you are entitled to claim benefits as is
:23:51. > :23:55.your non-EU family. And that's what's absolutely bizarre. We will
:23:55. > :23:59.have people who deliberately go down this route so their non-EU
:23:59. > :24:03.family can claim benefits. While he was in Dublin another two couples
:24:03. > :24:05.arrived in Ireland using this route. They didn't want to speak toe me
:24:05. > :24:13.though, because some people are fearful if the Government knows it
:24:13. > :24:17.will try to stop them. There is a significant number of people
:24:17. > :24:21.exploiting this route at the moment. Over the years we have had calls
:24:21. > :24:27.from migrants, perspective migrants and mostly migrant families wanting
:24:27. > :24:30.to have a bit of advice on how to get other family members over. Now
:24:30. > :24:33.we are getting calls from white British people wanting to get one
:24:34. > :24:37.family member in, their spouse, or perhaps a couple of children. And
:24:37. > :24:42.there is a lot of anger about that. This is an infringement on British
:24:42. > :24:46.people's rights, not just about immigrants. The Government already
:24:46. > :24:53.accept that we can't control immigration from other E United
:24:53. > :24:57.Statess. But we do work on the assumption that we can control
:24:57. > :25:01.movement from outside the EU, the family reunion has had to take its
:25:01. > :25:05.fair share of that. I think the rules that have been introduced,
:25:05. > :25:10.placing some what more restrictions on it are perfectly fair. To have
:25:10. > :25:19.those rules about controlling movement into the country from
:25:19. > :25:27.outside Europe just made fun of by a European regulation is just you
:25:27. > :25:34.know, it should be stopped. In Oxfordshire, Chris has already
:25:34. > :25:38.used this route to get his wife, Melissa, in, she is from New
:25:38. > :25:41.Zealand. They told me how they were received on the border on arrival
:25:41. > :25:45.from the UK. The response of the immigration officer was to suggest
:25:45. > :25:50.we were tricking them some how. see what you have done there, that
:25:50. > :25:54.is really clever. I was so exasperated by that point. They
:25:54. > :25:57.actually said, oh I see, you can just go and work in Spain or
:25:57. > :26:00.something as a waiter for a month and bring whoever you want back
:26:00. > :26:06.into the country with you. I thought well you are making this
:26:06. > :26:11.out, yes, but that is not illegal, that's not, rather it is not
:26:11. > :26:14.illegal, it is a stronger rights intitlement than the current family
:26:14. > :26:18.immigration rules are. It is completely legitimate, it is my
:26:18. > :26:22.right, it is every European's right. But it does mean that the British
:26:22. > :26:26.Government can't make rules that mean anything really? Well I would
:26:26. > :26:30.argue that actually if you are going to make a rule that inhibits
:26:30. > :26:35.people's capacity to have a family, British citizens to have a family,
:26:35. > :26:37.that is unjustified and illegitimate in the first place.
:26:37. > :26:47.The Immigration Minister, Mark Harper denied to be interview,
:26:47. > :27:06.
:27:06. > :27:10.This does some what contradict the UKBA website which says it does not
:27:10. > :27:14.matter if the only reason a British national went to another British
:27:14. > :27:17.state was to exercise an economic treaty right so they could bring
:27:17. > :27:20.their family into the UK. We are doing it because we have no other
:27:20. > :27:24.option, we will go ahead with it, if it is a cheat we will cheat if
:27:24. > :27:28.that means we can stay together for the rest of our lives.
:27:28. > :27:32.Unless the Government can find a way to close this route, for now
:27:32. > :27:42.British citizens will continue to scatter themselves all over Europe
:27:42. > :27:44.
:27:44. > :27:48.and come back with relatives in tow. You can hear that full documentary,
:27:48. > :27:56.Extreme Immigration by visiting the BBC website.
:27:56. > :28:00.The Oxford and Cambridge boat race is as qentseingsly English as the
:28:00. > :28:05.many other things. But not something Trenton Oldfield, an
:28:05. > :28:09.Australian, likes, last year he jumped in to disrupt the start and
:28:09. > :28:13.ended up in the clirpbg for six months. Now he's to be kicked out
:28:13. > :28:21.of the country because he's not conducive to public good.
:28:21. > :28:24.First a reminder of the kerfuffle. Once they get around because they
:28:24. > :28:27.are still in their favour. They have stopped. We have stopped
:28:27. > :28:32.rowing there is a man swimming across between the boats, both
:28:32. > :28:37.crews have had to swap, all the following boats have had to stop.
:28:37. > :28:44.There he is, there is the swimmer, the intruder in the water, just by
:28:44. > :28:49.the blades. I'm joined now by Trenton and his
:28:49. > :28:56.wife. Trenton, first of all, what were you thinking? Kirsly in the
:28:56. > :29:00.three days before I jumped in the river the British Government which
:29:00. > :29:04.as we know is not collected, had passed three. The British
:29:04. > :29:07.Government is not elected? This one wasn't. This one was elected and
:29:07. > :29:12.put together as a coalition? It was put together as a coalition, any
:29:13. > :29:19.way, so in the three days preceding my protest the Queen had had given
:29:19. > :29:22.Royal Assent to the selling of the NHS and the communications and data
:29:22. > :29:31.bill had been introduced into the Houses of Parliament, and on the
:29:31. > :29:34.third day the minister for the Olympics suggested that if your
:29:34. > :29:39.neighbour, if you thought your neighbour was going to protest at
:29:39. > :29:43.the Olympics that you should dob them in. All of that after decades
:29:43. > :29:47.of working on inequality and poverty issues was a real concern
:29:48. > :29:53.to me. But it was a concern to you so you thought, the boat race,
:29:53. > :29:56.because that presumably is a kind of totem of all you dislike about
:29:56. > :30:01.here? It is not so much about disliking here, lived here for 12
:30:01. > :30:05.years, I have chosen to live here because it is an interesting place,
:30:05. > :30:10.I have committed my entire working life here to work on issues of
:30:10. > :30:13.inequality. But the boat race symbolises a lot of issues. But you
:30:13. > :30:17.misjudged the public mood on the boat race? It seems to have changed
:30:17. > :30:21.a lot since then. I believe similar things. It changes a lot since the
:30:21. > :30:26.year last April? I believe so.You didn't tell your wife you were
:30:26. > :30:29.going to do it? I didn't. Because there is these laws called joint
:30:29. > :30:31.enterprise which are introduced, which convicts people that might
:30:31. > :30:36.know about certain crimes or certain things that will happen. I
:30:36. > :30:39.didn't want that. For the first time you saw it was him on
:30:39. > :30:46.television or did the police phone you or what happened? We work
:30:46. > :30:50.together as well, suddenly I was check ago work e-mail and the
:30:50. > :30:55.indocks was flooded, and I opened one -- inbox was flooded, and I
:30:55. > :30:59.opened one that said it is did I just see something I thought I saw,
:30:59. > :31:05.and I clicked the link and there was Trenton in the Thames. If you
:31:05. > :31:08.think this is an elitist place and pursuing elitist policies,
:31:08. > :31:12.presumably you would be happier in Australia? As a migrant, you will
:31:12. > :31:17.know having worked on these programmes for many years, the role
:31:17. > :31:21.that migrants have contributed to the United Kingdom in terms of
:31:21. > :31:27.social equality. The place we live in East London. You were the
:31:27. > :31:29.benefit of a post graduate place at LSE, you might be one of the elite
:31:30. > :31:33.yourself? I don't understand that argument, other than I have a good
:31:33. > :31:38.understanding of how these institutions work. What you are
:31:38. > :31:43.doing is fighting essentially deportation, and you are going to
:31:44. > :31:48.appeal. Diop your baby was due yesterday, you -- Deepa, your baby
:31:48. > :31:51.was due yesterday, you might face the prospect of being separated.
:31:51. > :31:57.Are you now thinking you will have to make some statement of good
:31:57. > :32:01.behaviour in order to stay, or is it too late for that? We're hoping
:32:01. > :32:04.that the Home Office, because it is so overstretched with resources.
:32:04. > :32:09.Lust forget about you, I don't think so? I think, we are hoping
:32:09. > :32:12.that it may have just been a technical issue. There is a pretty
:32:12. > :32:16.high-profile case, I doubt that will be the case. You will have to
:32:16. > :32:19.appeal, on what grounds will you appeal? We are appealing on a
:32:19. > :32:23.number of grounds, for example there is normally you don't get
:32:23. > :32:29.referred for even consideration of deportation unless you are sentence
:32:29. > :32:32.is over a year. It was a peaceful, non-violent protest. It could have
:32:32. > :32:37.been dangerous, you endangered yourself and might have caused the
:32:37. > :32:41.health serves out to your aid? is not there. Presumably you are in
:32:41. > :32:50.a position now where you are about to give birth, and within six weeks
:32:50. > :32:54.your husband could be out of the country? Yes.What would you say to
:32:54. > :33:00.people in the end about an act that has benefited neither of you?
:33:00. > :33:03.is a question around portionality and scale, Trenton was punished, he
:33:03. > :33:07.served a prison sentence, we are paying off the Crown costs, he was
:33:07. > :33:11.released on a tag. He didn't break any of those condition. He's
:33:11. > :33:16.contributed and worked in this country for over a decade. But he
:33:16. > :33:19.now is a criminal, of course? think the question around the right
:33:19. > :33:24.to protest and the criminal yietsation of protest needs to be
:33:24. > :33:26.discussed. -- criminalisation of protests need to be discussed. The
:33:26. > :33:30.question around migrants and whether migrants have the right to
:33:30. > :33:34.protest around issues that they feel are unjust. In our
:33:34. > :33:39.neighbourhood I think Trenton was trying to say things like minimum
:33:39. > :33:45.wage, minimum working hours, that's all been done through migrants
:33:45. > :33:48.protesting. It is a interested decisional thing. Are you --It is
:33:48. > :33:51.traditional thing. Are you going to have to say you are a reformed
:33:51. > :33:55.character? It is so interesting, when you go to prison nobody could
:33:55. > :33:59.tell me what the point of prison was. Nobody was able to say through
:33:59. > :34:04.this process that I would be reformed or rehabilitated or
:34:04. > :34:09.punished. So I mean...You Are not really rehabilitated again?
:34:09. > :34:14.imagine, it would seem that is the casek because I was allowed out of
:34:14. > :34:18.prison without any issues. But the issue at stake here is whether or
:34:18. > :34:22.not you can protest? And what I'm' dealing with at the moment is I
:34:22. > :34:25.will be concentrating on my family, I have some books to write, they
:34:25. > :34:28.are the key issues. People do have the right to protest and not to be
:34:28. > :34:34.criminalised for that protesting. Are you determined not to go to
:34:34. > :34:39.Australia, you may have to go? Well it would be he very difficult
:34:39. > :34:42.because our life is completely entangled here, we live and work
:34:42. > :34:45.together, everything is involved. We are hoping it was a technical
:34:45. > :34:49.mistake by the Home Office and we are hoping they will clarify that
:34:49. > :34:53.it was an oversight. Thank you very much indeed.
:34:53. > :34:57.Before the end of the programme we have tomorrow's front page, first,
:34:57. > :35:01.it is very rare to see killers boasting about their crimes. And
:35:01. > :35:05.certainly not the perpetrators of mass murder. But in a new
:35:05. > :35:10.documentary feature, The Act Of Killing, which revisits the bloody
:35:10. > :35:13.aftermath of the coup in Indonesian in 1975, the original
:35:13. > :35:16.paramilitaries who executed hundreds of thousands of alleged
:35:16. > :35:21.communists do just that. The film maker, Joshua Oppenheimer, tracked
:35:21. > :35:25.down the leader of the death squads and they readily agreed to re-enact
:35:25. > :35:33.several of their murders, delighting in the most bloodthirsty
:35:33. > :35:37.details. These exerts contain distressing images.
:35:37. > :35:41.After the 1965 coup anybody opposed to the new military dictatorship
:35:41. > :35:46.could be accused of being a communist. This included union
:35:46. > :35:56.members, landless farmers, intellectuals and ethnic Chinese.
:35:56. > :35:56.
:35:56. > :36:03.In America the attack on communism was seen as a major victory.
:36:03. > :36:08.Anwar Congo was the loader of the Pancasila Youth paramilitaries,
:36:08. > :36:15.which still existed today. He enthusiastically demonstrated to
:36:15. > :36:25.the camera what happened after he had beaten his victims to death,
:36:25. > :36:45.
:36:45. > :36:51.because the smell and the mess was The killers dress up in outlandish,
:36:51. > :36:57.garish outfits, making elaborate sets and cajoling Indonesians to
:36:57. > :37:07.take part in violent re-enactments, oblivious to the fact they are
:37:07. > :37:34.
:37:34. > :37:38.incriminating themselves in war It was a very multilayered
:37:38. > :37:42.documentary, including the prp traitors talking to each other --
:37:42. > :37:48.perpetrators talking about what they did to each other. Joshua
:37:48. > :37:52.Oppenheimer is with me now. You started off filming with survivors
:37:52. > :38:00.and then switched to the perpetrators? Every time we filmed
:38:00. > :38:05.with the survivors the police would and arrest us, and it terrified the
:38:05. > :38:09.survivors. He went back and asked should we make this and is it too
:38:09. > :38:12.sensitive still. And everybody said you must make a film, one that
:38:12. > :38:17.exposes what happened and what has happened to a whole society built
:38:17. > :38:20.by the killers and is based on the celebration of atrocities as
:38:20. > :38:26.something herok. I find it extraordinary, in which the killers
:38:26. > :38:30.move around, act completely with impunity, are still heros in what
:38:30. > :38:35.you expose of being a very corrupt and brutal society, elements of it?
:38:35. > :38:39.I think normally when we hear from perpetrators in film, they either
:38:39. > :38:42.apologise for what they have done or they deny it. That is because by
:38:42. > :38:46.the time we approach them, they have been removed from power. Here
:38:46. > :38:50.the killers have won, they are still in power, they have built a
:38:50. > :38:53.whole society based on celebrating their atrocities, and it gives us
:38:53. > :38:57.this opportunity to ask a fundamentally human question, which
:38:58. > :39:02.is, first of all, how do we human beings do this to each other, but
:39:02. > :39:05.what happens when we build our normality on terror and lies.
:39:05. > :39:10.is a question you were asking, but that was a question that only came
:39:10. > :39:13.later to the killers themselves. And I wonder how they saw you?
:39:13. > :39:17.Because they call you Josh, they trust you, you are behind the
:39:17. > :39:22.camera a lot of the time. And yet they know you are from Denmark.
:39:22. > :39:26.That you are looking in on them. It was as if they were so blinded to
:39:26. > :39:31.the fact that what they did was so appalling, they were happy to tell
:39:31. > :39:36.you that they started to garotte people because it was too bloody
:39:36. > :39:40.and smelly to machete them to death. It was one of the most shocking
:39:40. > :39:45.things I have ever seen I think? The viewers first relationship to
:39:45. > :39:49.the film is mine as well. Which is my gosh these men feel no remorse.
:39:49. > :39:51.The curious thing happens during the film is some how they are
:39:51. > :39:56.boasting about what they have done and celebrating what they have done,
:39:56. > :40:00.and it turns out to be a symptom perhaps of the fact that they knew
:40:00. > :40:03.it was wrong to begin with. They are desperately trying to convince
:40:03. > :40:09.themselves that what they have done was right. And by the end of the
:40:09. > :40:12.film some how they make scene after scene trying to some how run away
:40:12. > :40:15.from the meaning of what they have done, only to find themselves
:40:15. > :40:18.confronted with it. These were the particular death squads you are
:40:19. > :40:22.talking about just now. But all along the way we have this
:40:22. > :40:27.paramilitary group still in power, and is very much entrenched and
:40:27. > :40:30.entwined with the Government. With what you see in the film is
:40:30. > :40:34.tremendous corruption, brutality, attitudes towards women which are
:40:34. > :40:38.appalling, and the every day attitudes of some of the regime. So
:40:38. > :40:45.tell me where is it being shown in Indonesian, and can you ever go
:40:45. > :40:49.back -- Indonesia and can you ever go back? The film in the country
:40:49. > :40:53.has censorship, which they ban the film, so it is a crime to show it.
:40:53. > :40:59.We have held underground to screenings, some of them big, 600
:40:59. > :41:04.people, as of April there were 500 screenings in 95 cities and it is
:41:04. > :41:12.growing daily across Indonesia. Handing stuff on or is it done on
:41:12. > :41:16.social media? It is giving out DVDs, blue-rays, but also cinemas showing
:41:16. > :41:22.proper cinema seats. But inat this vaigs-only screenings, with 500
:41:22. > :41:25.people. The film has come like the little child in the Emperor's new
:41:25. > :41:29.clothes and saying the king is naked and everyone was too afraid
:41:29. > :41:32.to say it. And now said so powerfully by the killers
:41:32. > :41:37.themselves, there is no going back. During the course of the film you
:41:37. > :41:40.reshow some of your footage to the killers and they are contemplative
:41:41. > :41:49.sometimes, they quite like it. What about some of the people who come
:41:49. > :41:54.off worse than the killer, what is their response? I assume the
:41:54. > :41:59.political leaders, whom Anwar recruits into the film, I assume
:41:59. > :42:04.they feel betrayed. I hope they do, otherwise I haven't done my job.
:42:04. > :42:10.you still speak to him? I'm still in touch with him, we have been
:42:10. > :42:14.through a very painful and intimate and powerful journey together. But
:42:14. > :42:17.the politicians in Indonesia will make it that I could probably get
:42:18. > :42:21.into Indonesia but I wouldn't get out probably. So in a sense all the
:42:21. > :42:25.efforts you have made to learn the language and everything, your job
:42:25. > :42:28.is done? That is a great sadness for me that the community with whom
:42:28. > :42:34.I made the film they became my family, it was a very dark journey
:42:34. > :42:39.for me and painful journey. They lit this dark road with their
:42:39. > :42:44.laughter and support. In the end did you actually like some of the
:42:44. > :42:49.killers? I think "like" is the wrong word. I think I came to be
:42:49. > :42:54.less and less, even as I retained my judgment of their acts, I became
:42:54. > :42:58.less and less willing to judge another human being as an entire
:42:59. > :43:04.person. I think I feel love for Anwar as a human being, I think
:43:04. > :43:08."like" is certainly the wrong word. Thank you very much, The Act Of
:43:08. > :43:18.Killing is reduced in cinemas at this country, and Josh will be
:43:18. > :43:18.
:43:18. > :44:15.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 57 seconds
:44:15. > :44:20.speaking at events around the That is the end of tonight's