:00:15. > :00:19.The chances of the lights in Britain going out in Britain are
:00:19. > :00:23.many times higher than we thought a year ago, came the warning today.
:00:23. > :00:27.Yet beneath these fields lie huge untapped reserves of gas. There is
:00:27. > :00:33.just the problem of extracting it. This boss of a fracking company
:00:33. > :00:36.swears it is safe to do so. This activist thinks it isn't. And this
:00:36. > :00:39.minister will have to decide as well as reassuring the rest of us
:00:39. > :00:43.the Government knows what it is doing.
:00:43. > :00:48.Also tonight: I feel like a criminal that I'm on
:00:48. > :00:50.benefits. I shouldn't do because we haven't been on full benefits. My
:00:50. > :00:55.partner used to work but he had had a breakdown.
:00:55. > :01:03.We test the claim that generation Y thinks benefits are too generous
:01:03. > :01:08.and we all have to stand on our own two feet.
:01:08. > :01:12.The riots in Brazil may have been relatively middle-class in origin,
:01:12. > :01:16.but how much do the people of the shantytowns support them.
:01:16. > :01:20.TRANSLATION: In my opinion Brazil is becoming more unequal, the era
:01:20. > :01:30.of slavery is not over yet. The only difference is that now we are
:01:30. > :01:35.
:01:36. > :01:38.getting paid. That's it. Funny old dayk we discovered that successive
:01:38. > :01:43.British Governments have been so incompetent about energy supplies
:01:43. > :01:47.that in less than a year the risk of power cuts has trebled. But we
:01:47. > :01:52.also learned that Britain has probably twice as much shale gas
:01:52. > :01:59.under the earth than had been thought. "few" you might think,
:01:59. > :02:04.what is the talk of the odd earthquake and such. With the
:02:04. > :02:13.economy in its current etherised state, surely everyone is
:02:13. > :02:17.celebrating. No they are not. We explain why.
:02:17. > :02:26.Official warnings that we face a future when the lights will go out
:02:26. > :02:30.stepped up a notch today, as old oil plants and coal plants are shut
:02:30. > :02:36.and cleaner replacements are yet to be replaced. The blackout will be
:02:36. > :02:40.in 47 years, a new estimate put that at one in 12 years in 2015,
:02:40. > :02:44.and possibly one in four years if demand doesn't drop, as is expected.
:02:44. > :02:48.What a stroke of luck then that this morning we got eye-watering
:02:48. > :02:51.new figures on a huge untapped resource of shale gas, buried under
:02:52. > :02:54.a swathe of northern England. Suggesting a source of energy that
:02:54. > :02:58.has transformed the market in America.
:02:58. > :03:02.The Government is keen on renewables, nuclear and coal for a
:03:02. > :03:06.while longer, but the question now is could shale gas keep the lights
:03:06. > :03:10.on and the economy growing. Shale gas in the United States has
:03:10. > :03:15.had a huge impact, the price of gas in the United States, if you
:03:15. > :03:18.express it in oil terms is about $25 a barrel. That is a quarter of
:03:18. > :03:23.the price of oil. That is getting into the economy and it is a very
:03:23. > :03:27.flexible economy in the United States. It is brings prices down
:03:27. > :03:32.for industry and the consumer. It is giving a big economic boost.
:03:32. > :03:37.The numbers are impressive, the shale lies in two layers, some
:03:37. > :03:44.areas have gas held in a thin upper layer, some have it in a lower
:03:44. > :03:48.layer, others hold gas in both. In total, 1329 trillion cubic feet in
:03:48. > :03:52.this part of Britain alone. And there are unquantified shale
:03:53. > :03:57.resources elsewhere in the UK too. Shale gas is extracted through
:03:57. > :04:02.fracking, a process which frees gas trapped thousands of feet below
:04:02. > :04:11.ground by pumping millions of gallons of wart, plus sand and
:04:11. > :04:15.chemicals into a well, lined with alternate layers of metal tubing
:04:15. > :04:20.and casing. Done report properly it can be safe. But if there is corner
:04:20. > :04:23.cutting then the risk of problems goes up. Local communities where
:04:23. > :04:28.fracking first began have complained of gas leaks into their
:04:28. > :04:32.water wells, earth tremors and huge disruption as the wells are dug.
:04:32. > :04:36.Exploratory fracking in the UK in Lancashire also caused small
:04:36. > :04:42.earthquakes and some here worry about the effect that might have on
:04:42. > :04:48.house prices. One key question is can methane gas escaping from wells
:04:48. > :04:51.be minimiseed so it doesn't reach ground water. This is a former gas
:04:51. > :04:54.engineer, Mike Hill, who used to work in the industry. He's not
:04:54. > :04:56.against fracking, but he lives locally and wants to ensure it is
:04:57. > :05:00.done properly. I think understandably the general public
:05:00. > :05:05.and the people in this area don't really know what's coming down the
:05:05. > :05:12.line to them at this point in time until it happens. When they see,
:05:12. > :05:16.over a period of time, ten years, for example, 3,400 wells being
:05:16. > :05:20.drilled, flaring, truck, chemicals, total industrialisation of the
:05:20. > :05:23.coast, damage to the tourist industry, damage to the
:05:23. > :05:26.agricultural sector, people will be very angry indeed. What I say to
:05:26. > :05:30.people in the public meetings in Lancashire is this is the price
:05:30. > :05:34.that the coast has to pay for the benefit of the nation.
:05:34. > :05:38.The industry says that once producing the well heads sit
:05:38. > :05:43.quietly on a pad and can be hidden from view. What's more they are
:05:43. > :05:48.offering local people an incentive, at least �100,000 for each well
:05:48. > :05:52.where fracking takes place to explore, and 1% of revenues if
:05:52. > :05:55.drilling proves commercially viable. Government promises it will be
:05:55. > :05:58.properly regulated. Whether it is water issues, which the Environment
:05:58. > :06:02.Agency has a robust regime on. Whether it is the integrity of the
:06:02. > :06:06.wells that are dug, with independent well examiners that we
:06:06. > :06:12.have used for many decades in the North Sea. Whether it is methane
:06:12. > :06:17.emissions and so on, we have taken a very robust approach to making
:06:17. > :06:22.sure this can be done in a way that is safer, safer for communities,
:06:22. > :06:25.property and the environment. burn more gas and want to keep
:06:25. > :06:29.carbon emissions down, we will need technology like this. Burning gas
:06:29. > :06:33.releases half the carbon dioxide emissions of coal. This
:06:33. > :06:38.demonstration plant at London's Imperial College, traps those
:06:38. > :06:42.emissions to be stored, called carbon capture and storage. It will
:06:42. > :06:46.be many years before shale gas comes on stream, in the meantime
:06:47. > :06:51.coal will play an important part in our energy mix. Both our fossil
:06:51. > :06:53.fuels and technology being developed here to capture carbon
:06:53. > :07:00.dioxide emissions will be really important if we want to minimise
:07:01. > :07:08.the impact of emissions from the industry and energy tech sectors. -
:07:08. > :07:13.- energy sectors. Today so energy announcements, including renewables
:07:13. > :07:16.and a multibillion guarantee to raise finance for a new nuclear
:07:16. > :07:19.power station at Hinkley Point in Somerset. This is the day the
:07:19. > :07:25.Government says the search for shale gas gets serious, as it seeks
:07:25. > :07:29.to keep the public on side and the lights on. With us now is the
:07:29. > :07:34.Energy Minister, Michael Fallon, also with us Andrew Austin the
:07:34. > :07:39.chief executive of iGas Energy, which has fracking sites in the UK.
:07:39. > :07:44.And Jenny Banks, the energy spokesperson for the WWF UK.
:07:44. > :07:48.Can we speak for a moment or two about the electrical shortage and
:07:48. > :07:51.the predictions. Does the word "negligence" occur to you at all?
:07:51. > :07:55.From previous Governments that didn't build enough power station,
:07:55. > :07:59.they knew the nuclear would come offline in a few years time, they
:07:59. > :08:02.didn't do anything to replace nuclear power, they didn't build
:08:02. > :08:06.enough stations. How many have closed since you came to office?
:08:06. > :08:11.few have had to close because of European regulation and they have
:08:11. > :08:14.come off line. Have any opened? Only one is being built at the
:08:14. > :08:18.moment, others are gas generation, others have consent but the world
:08:18. > :08:21.gas price doesn't allow that. stories running in tomorrow
:08:21. > :08:25.morning's newspapers about how factories and businesses are going
:08:25. > :08:31.to be asked to switch off in order that power isn't cut to people's
:08:31. > :08:34.homes in 2015, are they true? The latest assessment is, as shown,
:08:34. > :08:39.that the position is slightly worse than the previous assessment last
:08:39. > :08:43.year. And they have got to make sure, the regulator, Ofgem, has to
:08:43. > :08:49.make sure with all the tools at its disposal bringing the mothball
:08:49. > :08:52.plant out back in action, back on- line, but all the tools it has at
:08:52. > :08:56.its disposal it has to make sure the lights stay on and they will.
:08:56. > :09:00.That is based on heroic assumptions about a lacklustre performance in
:09:00. > :09:03.the economy, is that correct? based overall, they do assessments
:09:03. > :09:06.of what demand is likely to be. They have to assess what plants
:09:06. > :09:11.will be lost to the system, what new plant is coming on. There is a
:09:11. > :09:14.lot of wind farms coming on the system. They make that assessment,
:09:14. > :09:18.I assure you the lights won't go out. You can give us that
:09:18. > :09:21.categorical assurance, and supposing in the unlikely event
:09:21. > :09:29.that the economy suddenly improves, that will still be true? They
:09:29. > :09:34.factor in the growth in the economy as well as everything else. Can you
:09:34. > :09:37.tell us on the question of shale gas, what status does David
:09:37. > :09:42.Cameron's promise to be the greenest Government ever have now?
:09:42. > :09:46.We are meeting our targets. We are still on track to decarbonise the
:09:46. > :09:50.economy. To meet our obligations under European and international
:09:50. > :09:54.treaties, to make sure that we bring on more renewables. Shale gas
:09:54. > :10:00.is the cleanest form of fossil fuel there is. It is a new form of
:10:00. > :10:03.fossil fuel isn't it? It is new, it doesn't mean we don't meet our
:10:03. > :10:07.decarbonisation target. We can do that as well. How does producing a
:10:07. > :10:10.new fossil fuel to the mix equate with being the cleanest Government
:10:10. > :10:13.ever? A couple of minutes ago you said we would be short of energy.
:10:14. > :10:17.This adds to the mix. You have a choice about how you meet the gap?
:10:17. > :10:21.We have to meet it at home. We can't keep importing very expensive
:10:21. > :10:24.energy from abroad at a time of very volatile prices. You have
:10:24. > :10:27.given up on green energy have you? No we have not. We are going to
:10:27. > :10:31.meet our green targets. We will meet our renewables target. Have
:10:31. > :10:34.you met the Green Deal target? have started on that, it is a new
:10:35. > :10:38.scheme and only just opened. many homes have signed up? We have
:10:38. > :10:41.had several thousand assessments being done. How many have signed up
:10:41. > :10:45.to? I don't know how many have signed up. It is a very new scheme,
:10:45. > :10:49.it will run for 20, 30 years as people build energy efficiency into
:10:49. > :10:53.their homes. Going to the question of shale gas, is it safe to extract
:10:53. > :10:57.it? It will only be done, it will only be extracted if it is safe. We
:10:57. > :11:00.had a moratorium on this structure. You don't know? We will make sure.
:11:00. > :11:03.Now they will have to not only have a license and planning permission,
:11:03. > :11:06.they will have to have permits from the Environment Agency. They will
:11:06. > :11:09.have to authorisation from Health & Safety Executives, they will have
:11:09. > :11:12.to have all these permits to make sure it is extracted safely and
:11:13. > :11:17.properly without damaging the environment. Just to be clear about
:11:17. > :11:21.this, you are offering communities bribes of �100,000 a pop to have
:11:21. > :11:24.one of these extraction plants, experimental extraction plants
:11:24. > :11:27.without knowing whether it is safe or not? The developers are offering
:11:27. > :11:33.community some compensation for the disruption that there is going to
:11:33. > :11:37.be. That is nothing to do with the Government. It is an offer from the
:11:37. > :11:41.industry. You are going to give them tax breaks? Let me be clear,
:11:41. > :11:46.they won't be allowed to extract unless the method is judged safe by
:11:46. > :11:51.the Environment Agency and the Health & Safety Executive. Andrew
:11:51. > :11:55.Austin, is it safe, can you guarantee that? Yes, yes.There is
:11:55. > :11:58.no danger whatsoever? There is rigorous background to how we
:11:58. > :12:05.extract oil and gas in this country. We have been doing it for many
:12:05. > :12:08.years on shore. Both on shore and off shore. The UK in boat
:12:08. > :12:14.environments has a long history of safe and proper regulation of those
:12:14. > :12:17.processes. The largest oil and gas field on shore in Europe is in the
:12:17. > :12:21.UK and has been conducting operations for the last 25 years.
:12:21. > :12:25.The Government has added to the level of regulation today and the
:12:25. > :12:30.level of control and building on that gold standard of history of
:12:30. > :12:37.how to regulate this industry. the Blackpool earth tremors? Were,
:12:37. > :12:40.as the Durham Energy Institute said were extremely small and were of a
:12:40. > :12:44.level that would be involved in most other extractive industries
:12:44. > :12:48.like coal mining or gravel extraction. I think the phrase the
:12:48. > :12:53.professor used "it is a bit like jumping off a step ladder in terms
:12:53. > :12:56.of the impact". We still stopped it to check and make sure the system
:12:56. > :12:59.was robust. It is only since Christmas we have allowed fracking
:12:59. > :13:02.to resume. The consequence of this will be lower energy bills, that is
:13:03. > :13:08.a good thing, isn't it? It would be a good thing, but actually if you
:13:08. > :13:14.have a look at some of the studies, the serious analytical studies done
:13:14. > :13:18.by Bloomberg New Energy Finance and others, that there will be no
:13:18. > :13:21.impact or negligible impact on the cost of gas in the short-term, up
:13:21. > :13:26.to 2025 or later. That is predicated on actually getting this
:13:26. > :13:30.gas out of the ground. Will it have an impact on gas prices? Yes, I
:13:30. > :13:34.think it will. Not to necessarily push them down dramatically in the
:13:34. > :13:38.same way as the states. You more or less agree on that? Rather than to
:13:38. > :13:42.put a cap on gas prices that will give more people confidence to
:13:42. > :13:46.invest in industry et. Actually it will have an impact -- et cetera.
:13:46. > :13:51.It actually will have an impact to home bills that they won't rise
:13:51. > :13:54.than they would necessarily, if the country continues to rely on
:13:54. > :13:58.imported energy. I thought you were suggesting they would drive down
:13:58. > :14:01.prices? They clearly have in the United States both for household
:14:01. > :14:05.and industry, that has been extreme low important for the revival of
:14:05. > :14:08.the economy in the United States. That's why it would be pretty
:14:08. > :14:11.irresponsible not to encourage the industry to go down and see if the
:14:11. > :14:14.shale can be recovered in the same way. We don't know that yet. We
:14:14. > :14:19.don't know whether it can be recovered in sufficient volume to
:14:19. > :14:23.drive down prices. But it would be quite wrong not to check. It would
:14:23. > :14:27.be wrong, it would be idiotic not to check wouldn't it? It depends
:14:27. > :14:32.what your objectives are, what we are looking at, and what our
:14:32. > :14:36.biggest concern about shale gas is, climate change. We are looking at
:14:36. > :14:41.it from this context. An organisation called Carbon Tracker,
:14:41. > :14:44.recently revealed we have listed on stock exchanges across the world
:14:44. > :14:48.five-times more fossil fuels globally than we can burn if we are
:14:48. > :14:51.no meet the target to keep temperature rises within two
:14:51. > :14:54.degrows. That doesn't include resources like shale gas, if you
:14:54. > :14:57.are then taking shale gas out of the ground that is increasing the
:14:57. > :15:03.already too many fossil fuels that we have. So you object to this
:15:03. > :15:08.really on principle, that it is a fossil, a further fossil fuel?
:15:08. > :15:12.at some point if we are going to tackle. All the other, the danger
:15:12. > :15:15.is icing on the cake? We are an environmental organisation we care
:15:15. > :15:20.about climate change and local environmental impacts and their
:15:20. > :15:23.effect on people. But our view is that really climate change is the
:15:23. > :15:27.one thing that whatever you do about the local environmental
:15:27. > :15:30.impacts and they absolutely need to be addressed and there is some of
:15:30. > :15:35.the science is still really quite uncertain. What is the worst that
:15:35. > :15:40.could happen from extracting this stuff? Well, there was a study
:15:40. > :15:47.released recently from Duke's University in the US that suggested
:15:47. > :15:51.that the well bores themselves are leaking methane, they found
:15:51. > :15:54.consntraigss of methane between six and seven-times higher in shale gas
:15:54. > :15:58.areas to non-shale gas areas. That is one of the potential concerns
:15:58. > :16:01.there are a number of others. with that? One of the things that
:16:01. > :16:04.the Government is actually insistent on, and one of the
:16:05. > :16:09.reasons why the more tain yum was in place, was to ensure that the
:16:09. > :16:12.right level of background monitoring was carried out prior to
:16:12. > :16:18.any operations. Prior to any operations we carry out we have to
:16:18. > :16:24.monitor both the ground water and background size movement, and
:16:24. > :16:28.natural low occurring earth tremors, so one can detect any changes
:16:28. > :16:30.happening. The university study had no background information prior to
:16:30. > :16:34.that happening. You will be able to tell us after the event that there
:16:34. > :16:38.has been a pollution event? there is a clear set of traffic
:16:38. > :16:43.lights set out with the Environment Agency. After the event?No, on the
:16:43. > :16:47.way through the event. Especially in terms of tracking. If it is
:16:48. > :16:52.monitored week by week it can only report what has happened? It can
:16:52. > :16:57.report any seismic activity. soon as something like Take That
:16:57. > :17:00.happens you stop. -- as soon as something like that happens you
:17:00. > :17:02.stop. We will have more discussion about
:17:02. > :17:05.that again. Of it the day of rage after the
:17:05. > :17:10.night before today, except it wasn't. The news that yet again the
:17:10. > :17:15.burden of salvaging the economy is to fall first on those who most
:17:15. > :17:19.depend upon its benefits system hasn't stirred up a hornet's nest.
:17:19. > :17:22.Opposition to the plan is the dog that didn't bark. It seems to
:17:22. > :17:28.represent a growing and changing consensus, in particular attitudes
:17:28. > :17:31.seem to have changed among younger voters. Generation Y as the under-
:17:32. > :17:34.34s are called, they have a different set of beliefs from those
:17:34. > :17:42.of their parents and grandparents. We will speak to three from this
:17:42. > :17:46.group in a few minutes. First here is Paul Mason.
:17:46. > :17:50.For ten years Sarah Sullivan lived in a one bedroom council flat with
:17:50. > :17:57.her partner and four children. Then she got moved by housing
:17:57. > :18:00.association to a four bedroomed house in Orpington, Kent. It was
:18:00. > :18:05.like Christmass all in one when we got this because my children had
:18:05. > :18:08.their own bedroom, their faces, it was absolutely lovely to see their
:18:08. > :18:13.faces. Now because one daughter has moved out they have been told to
:18:13. > :18:17.move to a smaller house or pay �21 extra a week. I feel like a
:18:17. > :18:22.criminal that I'm on benefits. I shouldn't though because we haven't
:18:22. > :18:27.been on full benefits, my partner used to work, but he had had a
:18:27. > :18:33.breakdown. It is a big difference to if we had the �21. We would move,
:18:33. > :18:38.but the thing is my son is going to secondary school in September and
:18:38. > :18:42.for us to uproot and go somewhere else, they can't say they can give
:18:42. > :18:45.us another property where we are, it is, I don't want to do it to my
:18:45. > :18:50.children, it is not fair. Sarah's partner is long-term sick, so they
:18:50. > :18:54.live on ESA, child benefit, housing benefit. A general cap on welfare
:18:55. > :18:59.spending would affect them. So what does she think of that. Why
:18:59. > :19:03.shouldn't we have a cap on benefit spending? We should, there is
:19:03. > :19:08.people out there that are scroungers, but then there is
:19:08. > :19:11.people like myself and my partner who really need the help. It is
:19:11. > :19:14.hard to get the help because of the other people how hard they have
:19:14. > :19:19.made it for us. Yesterday the Government signalled a whole new
:19:19. > :19:23.ball game when it comes to benefits. Two groups of people need to be
:19:23. > :19:27.satisfied with our welfare system. Those who need it, who are old, who
:19:27. > :19:30.are vulnerable, who are disabled, or lost their job, and who we as a
:19:30. > :19:35.compassionate society want to support. There is a second group,
:19:35. > :19:41.the people who pay for this welfare system, who go out to work, who pay
:19:41. > :19:44.their taxes and expect it to be fair on them too. But public
:19:44. > :19:47.attitudes have turned against welfare. On thes state where Sarah
:19:47. > :19:52.lives official figures show unemployment levels double the
:19:52. > :19:56.national average and half the families are single parent families.
:19:56. > :20:00.But 20 minutes away by train and you are in streets awash with
:20:00. > :20:03.finance and fashion, and among the wider population is seems that even
:20:03. > :20:06.Labour people now have what we thought were Tory attitudes to the
:20:06. > :20:09.poor. This graph shows the percentage of
:20:09. > :20:13.people surveyed who said the Government should spend more on
:20:13. > :20:18.been fits for the poor. Among Labour people, where it was once
:20:18. > :20:23.close to 80%, it is now below half, among Conservative voters where it
:20:23. > :20:28.started at about half it is now just 20%. And what's most striking
:20:28. > :20:34.is the change in attitudes among the young. Among those under-35,
:20:34. > :20:38.those wanting more spent on benefits has fallen from 50% to 20%.
:20:38. > :20:42.There is a perception that all people on benefits have been in
:20:42. > :20:46.receipt of extra money from the welfare system. In fact, if you
:20:46. > :20:50.look at people who are out of work and on jobseeker's allowance, they
:20:50. > :20:55.have had no real increase in the benefits available to them for 20
:20:55. > :20:58.or 30 years. But they are the ones who are receiving the brunt of
:20:58. > :21:03.people's anger against perceptions about fraud and dishonesty within
:21:03. > :21:08.the well from state. Life in a place like this can be tough, above
:21:08. > :21:11.all for the young, they know their lives are being scrutinised and
:21:11. > :21:15.generalisations being made, most people are just as keen as the
:21:15. > :21:18.Government to see the welfare system working fairly. Attitudes
:21:18. > :21:22.towards people receiving benefits have been hardening now for about
:21:22. > :21:26.two decades, since the financial crisis something has changed. The
:21:26. > :21:30.survival strategy of the young seems to be work at all costs for
:21:30. > :21:34.low wages or even no wages. And that has changed what they think
:21:34. > :21:38.the state and taxation should be used for.
:21:38. > :21:41.I think it is very difficult for the bulk of the population to fully
:21:41. > :21:46.understand what it is like to be reliant upon the state for
:21:46. > :21:48.everything. And then be subject to the changes that happen in the
:21:49. > :21:51.amount of income that comes in through the door. There are
:21:51. > :21:54.families right now struggling to make decisions between whether to
:21:54. > :21:57.heat their home or feed their children. That is a reality. That
:21:57. > :22:01.is something we see within our bureau. I think that is a million
:22:01. > :22:05.miles away from a lot of the population. And Sarah, who has to
:22:05. > :22:10.live on welfare, but is all too well aware of the fall in public
:22:10. > :22:14.support for it has a challenge. in my shoes for a week or a month
:22:14. > :22:18.and see how it is. It is easy for people to say oh you are doing this
:22:18. > :22:23.and that, but then they don't know the full circumstances. Unless they
:22:23. > :22:29.have been in my shoes, then they can say OK. Do you think they want
:22:29. > :22:36.to know? No. There is a lot of ignorance out there. A lot of
:22:36. > :22:40.ignorance. With us now is a member of the tax-
:22:40. > :22:46.payers' alliance, and an author of Jilted Generation, and the
:22:46. > :22:51.columnist at the New Statesman, all a part of the called "generation Y".
:22:51. > :22:56.You must have all observed this, it is quite apparent on certain
:22:56. > :22:59.occasions, why do you think it is that younger people seem to be
:22:59. > :23:02.turning against the welfare system? It is actually quite a complex
:23:02. > :23:06.issue, I think the first thing to say is that young people actually
:23:06. > :23:10.tend not to be in receipt of some of those universal benefits and
:23:10. > :23:13.advantages that a lot of people expected them to be. But they are,
:23:13. > :23:17.actually, bearing the brunt of the recession in the sense that they
:23:17. > :23:20.are the ones most likely to be unemployed. About 40% of those
:23:20. > :23:25.unemployed in Britain are under 30. It is really centered in this
:23:25. > :23:28.cohort. And yet actually they want themselves to be able to stand on
:23:28. > :23:32.their own two feet. They are finding they can't. As a result
:23:32. > :23:35.they are actually becoming dependant, not just on the state,
:23:35. > :23:39.however mealy-mouthed it is to their problems, but also on their
:23:39. > :23:44.parents. And yet they feel they have in some respects a worse life
:23:44. > :23:48.than their parents, what they are entitled to expect? Actually living
:23:48. > :23:52.standards are worse for somebody working on average in their 20s
:23:52. > :23:57.than a grandparent in their 80s now. The standard of living is lower.
:23:57. > :24:02.They are right to feel that way. Why do you think there has been
:24:02. > :24:04.this apparent change? I think it is very funny isn't it that we are
:24:04. > :24:08.suddenly so interested in what young people think and what young
:24:08. > :24:11.people have to say. Young people have been squeezed hardest and poor
:24:11. > :24:14.people have been squeezed hardest over the past three years of this
:24:14. > :24:17.coalition Government and in the five years since the crash. And
:24:17. > :24:22.young people have had a lot of opinions about he hadcation, about
:24:22. > :24:25.the tripling of university fees and the move We are talking about
:24:25. > :24:28.benefit now? When people came out on to the streets and answered the
:24:28. > :24:30.opinion polls in their thousands saying they were against those
:24:30. > :24:36.changes, people didn't pay attention. On this occasion they
:24:36. > :24:40.are supporting George Osborne? necessarily. They are. Let's look
:24:40. > :24:47.at this. I'm going to show you a graph now, it will show you what
:24:47. > :24:50.opinion has done on the question of, the question was put "if welfare
:24:50. > :24:54.benefits weren't so generous people would learn to stand on their own
:24:54. > :24:58.two feet" the number of people agreeing is the blue line, soaring
:24:58. > :25:03.in recent years, and previous recessions it hasn't? I can see the
:25:03. > :25:07.graph, Jeremy. What has happened over the past three years there has
:25:07. > :25:11.been a sustained campaign of lies and disinformation being spread
:25:11. > :25:14.about what benefits mean, about who get them. There has been a campaign
:25:14. > :25:18.of shame and alienation against young people and working people in
:25:18. > :25:23.this country. It is no surprise that people. Are they too stupid to
:25:23. > :25:27.see through it? I'm not saying that, this Government is much better at
:25:27. > :25:31.PR than it is at fixing the economy. What do you think the reason is?
:25:31. > :25:35.According to Laurie it is all the media's fault. No, she's not
:25:35. > :25:39.blaming the media, she's blaming the Government? Generation Y have
:25:39. > :25:43.seen they have become less reliant on welfare. They have become more
:25:43. > :25:48.typical liberal, they believe in lower taxes, limited welfare.
:25:48. > :25:54.no. That is the British, that is what the British Association
:25:54. > :26:02.attitude survey shows, it shows it is developing over a -- British
:26:02. > :26:07.Association attitude survey shows. You are more liberal on social
:26:07. > :26:10.attitudes? They haven't embraced the teachings of Milton Friedman
:26:10. > :26:13.these people are massively insecure, they have been failed by society
:26:13. > :26:17.and are bearing the brunt of unemployment. If people feel they
:26:17. > :26:20.have no stake in society why should they feel the welfare state has
:26:20. > :26:23.anything to give them. People our age and younger have grown up
:26:23. > :26:29.believing that society has no stake in them, has nothing to offer them.
:26:29. > :26:33.It is no surprise that people are feeling that welfare is not what
:26:33. > :26:39.people should be relying on. Welfare has been madly insufficient
:26:39. > :26:42.for years. I'm not sure...Why they asking for more of it? People
:26:42. > :26:47.are asking for more of it. graph shows precisely the reverse
:26:47. > :26:53.of that. The fact is younger people are incredibly realistic about the
:26:53. > :26:56.fact that their retirements aren't going to be paid for. They are more
:26:56. > :26:59.individualistic and liberal in their outlook, they get used to the
:26:59. > :27:03.state not providing anything. Whether we like it or not, we are
:27:03. > :27:09.all children of Thatcher because she has changed the political
:27:09. > :27:15.debate and what we are looking at. Are they more self-sufficient?
:27:15. > :27:20.is not the state who gave them the iPhone. More people young men are
:27:20. > :27:23.living with their parents. Is that what Thatcher wanted, 30% of young
:27:23. > :27:25.people living with their parents. Our younger generation is being
:27:26. > :27:29.priced out of the housing ladder, and finding it more difficult to
:27:29. > :27:32.get on the job market. What is the solution to that. They are not
:27:32. > :27:36.standing on their own two feet, they are living with their parents
:27:36. > :27:39.and unemployed on a mass scale. We have the third-highest youth
:27:40. > :27:43.unemployment in the OECD. That is a massive question that both
:27:43. > :27:48.political parties have to answer. It touch on benefits because young
:27:48. > :27:51.people actually are massively in receipt of them. If they are
:27:51. > :27:55.against benefits what it says is they are desperately self-reliant
:27:55. > :28:01.because they have been taught that nobody else is going to help them.
:28:01. > :28:07.We have a responsibility to, surely. Isn't it admirable to have a sense
:28:07. > :28:10.of self-sufficiency? It isn't that, because it is not self-sufficiency,
:28:10. > :28:14.but they are reloint on their parents and what their parents --
:28:14. > :28:17.reliant on their parents and what they can do. They are reliant on
:28:17. > :28:21.JSA because they can't get job. They can't be self-sufficient
:28:21. > :28:26.because they haven't been given the tool to build stable adult lives.
:28:26. > :28:29.That is the crisis. What the Government calls standing on your
:28:29. > :28:34.two feet others call abandonment, which has happened to young people
:28:34. > :28:38.in this country. That doesn't explain why there is the support
:28:38. > :28:43.for cutting benefits? Shame explains it, there is a campaign
:28:43. > :28:46.against all people who are poor and in receipt of benefits, most of
:28:46. > :28:49.whom work and are tax-payers too. And you should represent their
:28:49. > :28:54.interests. Maybe it is young people want to get on. I'm sure they want
:28:54. > :29:02.to get on. They don't see well fare as an alternative in work. Creating
:29:02. > :29:06.jobs helps them. I actually see it as making sure work pays, so not
:29:06. > :29:10.taxing the lower paid to provide elsewhere. Young people don't see
:29:10. > :29:14.benefits as the answer but work as the answer. Why has the
:29:14. > :29:17.Conservative Government cut 140,000 jobs, they are destroying jobs not
:29:17. > :29:20.creating jobs and taking away welfare leaving people to starve.
:29:21. > :29:25.Foodbanks are on the rise, young people are living in crowded houses
:29:25. > :29:32.in London. There has been a desmakes of welfare of education
:29:32. > :29:36.and people are starving. This, I think, is the essential point,
:29:36. > :29:40.there was a plan, a strategy that Labour pursued in Government, which
:29:40. > :29:44.was to try to embed benefits throughout all of society for the
:29:44. > :29:48.greatest possible degree. The idea was when the crash came, when the
:29:49. > :29:53.Tories got in those been fits wouldn't be cut. Because they were
:29:53. > :29:57.embedded in the rest of the society. Actually it has been very easy to
:29:57. > :30:01.cut those benefits, it turns out most people in Britain don't want
:30:01. > :30:05.to be dependant on benefits. The people on the margin are indulging
:30:05. > :30:08.in benefit fraud, most of them are living very miserable lives. That
:30:08. > :30:12.is why it is not popular, because nobody wants to be on benefits,
:30:12. > :30:16.they want to build sustainable, coherent adult lives. It is only
:30:16. > :30:19.that people don't want to be on benefits, they realise it is not
:30:19. > :30:22.sustainable to have a system where the welfare state has gone from
:30:22. > :30:25.helping the most vulnerable and being a safety net to where it is
:30:25. > :30:28.topping up incomes. What the Government needs to be looking at
:30:28. > :30:34.doing is given that generation Y want to get on and work, it is
:30:34. > :30:38.ensuring that work pays. What will happen as generation Y get older?
:30:38. > :30:42.Generation Y is incredibly realistic about what their
:30:42. > :30:45.prospects are for retirement. More people believe the moon landings
:30:45. > :30:51.were faked than the state providing for their current retirement. That
:30:51. > :30:55.was TPA polling. We know people are realistic about it, they want to
:30:55. > :31:00.save and get on, but the Government need to get out of the way. How is
:31:00. > :31:05.getting out of the way solve things for the mill yun young people out
:31:05. > :31:10.of work now not knowing what their future will hold, living miserable
:31:10. > :31:14.lives. How is making work pay going to help that. What you call it that,
:31:14. > :31:17.most people call it cutting benefits more. It is not, it is
:31:17. > :31:21.enabling the economy to grow. Rather than burdening family
:31:21. > :31:24.budgets and businesses out there taking on young people, ensuring
:31:24. > :31:27.that taxes aren't actually destroying economic growth, but
:31:27. > :31:33.that's the policy that you keep arguing. Because the economy is
:31:33. > :31:38.doing really well. Because we front-loaded the tax rises. You are
:31:38. > :31:41.looking baffled? Making work pay, middle-class pay, and most pages
:31:41. > :31:44.have been stagnant, it is not just about ensuring that the state can
:31:44. > :31:48.get out of the way of people. It isen suring that businesses pay
:31:48. > :31:54.decent wages and the he economy is growing. These are the big -- and
:31:54. > :31:58.the economy is growing, and these are the big issues, I don't feel
:31:58. > :32:01.any party is doing that. Are you losing the argument with your
:32:01. > :32:06.contemporaries? If you look at the polling, what is most interesting
:32:06. > :32:09.is 40% of young people do not feel connected to any political party or
:32:09. > :32:13.any argument being made in Government at all. Young people
:32:13. > :32:17.right now and poor people have been abandoned by mainstream political
:32:17. > :32:21.discourse. Most of this has no impact on how ordinary people are
:32:21. > :32:25.living their lives on the breadline right now. Food banks are on the
:32:25. > :32:29.rise, people have no idea. In many cases how they are going to have
:32:29. > :32:34.the next meal, never mind make the next rent cheque.
:32:35. > :32:38.Thank you very much. We will have more from Paul Mason in a few
:32:38. > :32:41.minutes. First television's affection for helmets and teargas
:32:41. > :32:45.and noise in general means hardly anyone can be unaware of the fact
:32:45. > :32:49.that there are riot going on in Brazil. Some of the pictures are
:32:49. > :32:53.quite dramatic. But what are they about. They began in the middle-
:32:53. > :32:58.class, although unlike other protestors who dream of bringing
:32:58. > :33:03.down dictator or spreading freedom, the Brazilians seem to have more
:33:03. > :33:06.blooding ambition, they didn't like prices -- plodding ambition, they
:33:06. > :33:09.didn't like price going up on transport or the staging of the
:33:09. > :33:17.football World Cup. What about the poor of Brazil who have reason
:33:17. > :33:21.enough to complain, perhaps. We went to find out.
:33:22. > :33:29.A journey through Rio is a journey through discontent. However fast
:33:29. > :33:35.Brazil's progress, it is not fast enough.
:33:35. > :33:40.See it through the ice of Pedro Vicenti, who drives the number 415
:33:40. > :33:45.bus. His parents are illiterate, a maid and a street vendor, he has a
:33:45. > :33:52.steady job and is saving to go to university. He and the diverse
:33:52. > :33:57.crowd of citizens he carries are dissatisfied. One of the striking
:33:57. > :34:00.things about the protests here is they haven't set one section of
:34:00. > :34:05.society against another, as revolutions often do, as certainly
:34:05. > :34:08.happened in the recent unrest in Turkey. On the contrary, they seem
:34:09. > :34:18.to have united social classes, who usually have very different
:34:18. > :34:22.interests. Now Brazilians from all walks of life feel betrayed by
:34:22. > :34:27.leader, but it is the young, the educated and the middle-class who
:34:27. > :34:33.have driven protests. Those at the bottom of the heap, in Rio's
:34:33. > :34:40.shantytowns, the fafvel lows, have largely -- favelas, have largely
:34:40. > :34:45.stayed at home. Daisy is one of the 11 million Brazilian mothers who
:34:45. > :34:48.gets payments for keeping their children in school. The family
:34:48. > :34:52.allowance scheme aims to lift families like Daisy's out of
:34:53. > :34:59.poverty. Many economyists say it is succeeding. But it is not enough to
:34:59. > :35:03.keep this family loyal to the President. TRANSLATION: People
:35:03. > :35:06.voted for her because they thought she would do the same things the
:35:06. > :35:12.last person would because they are from the same party. She's not
:35:12. > :35:15.doing the same things he did. That was why he was able to run Brazil
:35:16. > :35:20.for eight years. She doing bad things. He helped much more, prices
:35:20. > :35:25.were not so expensive. The main reason they don't take to
:35:25. > :35:29.the streets, they say, is fear of police violence. More likely to be
:35:29. > :35:34.directed against slum dwellers than against the middle-class. But Daisy
:35:34. > :35:41.and her 16-year-old daughter, Larissa, are with the protestors in
:35:41. > :35:46.spirit. We come from England and in the outside world people are really
:35:46. > :35:50.impressed by Brazil. They say that Brazil is getting better and better,
:35:50. > :35:57.it is getting richer and richer. It is going to have the World Cup, it
:35:57. > :36:05.is going to have the Olympics? But it doesn't feel like that to you?
:36:05. > :36:09.How does it seem to you? TRANSLATION: It is not what it
:36:09. > :36:18.seems to be. I think they are hiding the truth. They are showing
:36:18. > :36:23.something fake. TRANSLATION: They are lying, it is terrible here,
:36:23. > :36:27.everything is terrible. The only thing I see improving are
:36:27. > :36:32.the stadium for the World Cup, just that and we don't need it. We don't
:36:32. > :36:37.need stadiums we need hospitals. Larissa wants to be a doctor, but
:36:37. > :36:40.show says she's not getting the education she needs. -- but she
:36:40. > :36:43.says she's not getting the education she needs. Her school is
:36:43. > :36:48.in the middle of the slum. She's back now after taking a short time
:36:48. > :36:53.off to have a baby. In the past many children dropped out of school.
:36:53. > :36:59.Working to support their families, some joining the drug gangs that
:36:59. > :37:04.control the favela. Now the family allowance payments keep them in
:37:04. > :37:08.class. There are more teachers, and more music, sport and other
:37:08. > :37:13.activities to stimulate pupils. So does the headteacher think that
:37:13. > :37:18.the protestors who complained so bitterly about Brazil's schools are
:37:18. > :37:22.simply ungrateful for what the Government has done? TRANSLATION:
:37:22. > :37:26.No, I don't think so they are ungrateful. I think they understand
:37:26. > :37:30.their benefit. But we need to demand from the state even more
:37:30. > :37:35.investment in education. One thing does not cancel the other. They
:37:35. > :37:39.receive these been fits from the people they voted for. -- these
:37:39. > :37:43.benefits from the people they voted for. That is why they have the
:37:43. > :37:49.right to demand more jobs, investment, that is a natural part
:37:49. > :37:54.of democracy. The 415 is emptying as Pedro heads into leafy parts of
:37:54. > :37:57.town. The authorities hope the streets will empty as they offer
:37:57. > :38:05.ever more concessions. Fair increases have been withdrawn, more
:38:05. > :38:10.cash promised for transport, schools and healthcare.
:38:10. > :38:20.The protesters' demands are growing, some Brazilians are getting a taste
:38:20. > :38:29.
:38:29. > :38:32.for street politics. Among them the driver of the 415.
:38:32. > :38:36.TRANSLATION: In 27 years this is the first time something like this
:38:36. > :38:41.has happened. If there is a protest every day then I will be here every
:38:41. > :38:44.day. Because it is beautiful to see all these people together. It gives
:38:44. > :38:54.me goosebumps and I have never seen anything like this before. I
:38:54. > :38:58.believe that this time something really is going to change. This
:38:58. > :39:03.week the crowd won another victory, the defeat of a measure that would
:39:03. > :39:07.have limited prosecutors' powers to investigate corruption. Why were
:39:07. > :39:17.Brazil's politicians caught so off guard? I have come to meet the
:39:17. > :39:21.Mayor of Rio. Brazil is a democracy, I mean, the democracy has to get
:39:21. > :39:28.more mature and improve. I think there is a problem with democracy,
:39:28. > :39:31.representive democracy all over the world. On that level, on that basic
:39:31. > :39:35.services, what can you tell me today that you will offer the
:39:35. > :39:39.people who are still coming out on to the street who say education
:39:39. > :39:44.isn't good enough, the health isn't good enough, what will you give
:39:44. > :39:47.them? You have been to one of the schools of tomorrow. We did lots of
:39:47. > :39:51.good things in the past few years for the education system. People
:39:51. > :39:59.want more. That is the good thing about Brazilian democracy. On
:39:59. > :40:02.education I it tell you it is not a problem of money. How can it not be
:40:02. > :40:07.a problem with with money, primary school teachers earn so little
:40:07. > :40:12.money. You are responsible for that? If you comair to the wages,
:40:12. > :40:17.to the sal -- If you compare to the wages and salaries of Brazil it is
:40:17. > :40:21.not that bad. To the man on the bus that is pretty complacent. But some
:40:21. > :40:27.are uneasy that what started as a campaign about public transport has
:40:27. > :40:30.been diverted into too man other causes. Some of the left, some of
:40:30. > :40:35.the right. Already the unity that marks the beginning of the protests
:40:35. > :40:42.is beginning to breakdown. And perhaps that's inevitable in a
:40:42. > :40:46.society where many think inequality is still increasing.
:40:46. > :40:50.We have reached the end of the line, and Pedro is finished driving fored
:40:50. > :40:55.today. He has discovered ordinary people like him can be drivers of
:40:55. > :40:59.change. And he thinks Brazil needs a lot more of it. TRANSLATION:
:40:59. > :41:05.my opinion Brazil is becoming more unequal. The era of slavery is not
:41:05. > :41:10.over yet. The only difference is that now we are getting paid.
:41:10. > :41:16.That's it. Do you think that Brazil will ever be more equal?
:41:16. > :41:23.TRANSLATION: I do believe it, if we keep protesting on the streets, I
:41:23. > :41:26.believe that things will change. Politicians though are practised in
:41:26. > :41:29.promising change. Brazil's new protest movement will have
:41:29. > :41:36.difficulty retaining enough energy and enough social cohesion to hold
:41:36. > :41:40.them to account. Those marvellous people in our Government are going
:41:40. > :41:44.to spend loads more of our money digging holes and building roads
:41:44. > :41:48.and railways and generally doing for more the infrastructure of this
:41:48. > :41:54.country than anyone has done in a century. Also the propaganda
:41:54. > :42:01.machine we also pay for told us today. What a load of dishonest
:42:01. > :42:05.drivel said their opponents as they whittled down and alleged �100
:42:05. > :42:11.million of investment to something a lot less impressive and urgent.
:42:11. > :42:14.What have they promised? To build infrastruck stuer. People like
:42:14. > :42:20.infrastructure. People don't just like it because they can get on a
:42:20. > :42:25.train or a motorway, but they feel good when they live in a country
:42:25. > :42:29.where there is the best in the world. You only have to get on a
:42:29. > :42:33.400km train in China to understand how good that feels. The Government
:42:33. > :42:37.spent last the last three years slashing spending on infrastructure,
:42:37. > :42:40.its plans are not to particularly raise spending on infrastructure
:42:40. > :42:45.for the rest of the parliament. What it did was pull together the
:42:45. > :42:50.money it had already pledged to spend on infrastructure on the next
:42:50. > :42:54.parliament, and put projects to that money. About �100 billion of
:42:54. > :43:00.it, they decided to name them and specify them or do feasiblilty
:43:00. > :43:10.studies, this is what provoked the outbreak of high perbowl lay in the
:43:10. > :43:12.
:43:12. > :43:18.Commons today. -- h yperbole. I can announce the biggest housing
:43:18. > :43:22.programme in manyies, the largest rail plans since Victorian times.
:43:22. > :43:27.The greatest investment in roads since the 1970s. Fast on-line
:43:27. > :43:30.access for the whole country. this what we used to call "money"?
:43:30. > :43:34.It is real money. The important thing is if you say we are
:43:34. > :43:37.definitely going to do this and not this, what you then do and what
:43:37. > :43:41.they are trying to do is create certainty for private investors so
:43:42. > :43:46.they can look at the UK. A lot will be wrapped up and sold to
:43:46. > :43:49.inspection markets and protesters. We can say we think it has a future
:43:49. > :43:53.in roads and investment. Often in economics we are talking about
:43:53. > :43:57.facts and figures and graphs and charts. Actually it is quite a nice
:43:57. > :44:03.thing to be talking about roads and railways, and flood defences.
:44:03. > :44:08.Because we can feel these a touch them. This is HS2, already �9
:44:08. > :44:12.million more than we expected it to cost. It will allow people to
:44:12. > :44:18.comout between the cities on the map, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham,
:44:18. > :44:22.London, rather than long run one- day journeys. Dependant on the cost
:44:22. > :44:26.of the tickets. Yes. There is CrossRail, we have already got one
:44:26. > :44:29.going across London, east to west, we have this one, this has been
:44:29. > :44:33.given the nod, there is a feasiblilty study for it, so all
:44:33. > :44:37.the tourists who can't afford the hotel room who live in campsites on
:44:37. > :44:41.the edge of London will be able in the future to get on a train into
:44:41. > :44:46.central London and work out where to get on a pavement. We would have
:44:46. > :44:51.had a map of the motorways but it was too complicated. But there is a
:44:51. > :45:01.huge road upgrading thing. By 2040 if we don't do this the whole
:45:01. > :45:03.
:45:03. > :45:09.network will grind to a halt. 2040. The A14, the M4 will be
:45:09. > :45:14.upgraded. Most motorway junctions will be upgrade the. Get ready for
:45:14. > :45:20.a lifetime of traffic cones. The A1 north to new cast. There a stort of
:45:20. > :45:25.stay in the UK appeal to the Scots that we build -- a sort of stay in
:45:25. > :45:31.the UK appeal to the Scots if we build a road to them. The good
:45:31. > :45:34.thing is the economics of it, if you decide not to spend on
:45:34. > :45:39.departmental or spending and welfare, you can make the case that
:45:39. > :45:44.spending it in a clear demonstrable and predictable way on all this.
:45:44. > :45:48.Plus the flood defences and housing. Actually creates jobs. That's why
:45:48. > :45:53.they have done it. Thank you very much indeed. Some of tomorrow
:45:53. > :46:03.morning's front pages now, the Times goes with that story we were
:46:03. > :46:25.
:46:25. > :46:29.dealing with earlier about the That's it. George Osborne has spent
:46:29. > :46:36.the day trying to justify a photograph showing him preparing
:46:36. > :46:46.his cuts to welfare while eating a rather putocratic-lookingburger,
:46:46. > :47:08.
:47:08. > :47:13.don't worry George, it is an easy Hello there, good evening, quite a
:47:13. > :47:17.mixture of weather to come of the we will start on a warm and humid
:47:17. > :47:21.note. Two areas of rain, the first one heading eastwards and
:47:21. > :47:23.brightening up for a while. Another band of rain sinking southwards
:47:23. > :47:29.across Scotland and Northern Ireland. If we do get sunshine in
:47:29. > :47:32.Northern Ireland it will be late in the day. Some drizzley rain.
:47:32. > :47:40.Developing more and more in Scotland. A fresher feel in the
:47:40. > :47:43.afternoon after the rain. The rainband sweeps southwards into
:47:43. > :47:46.northern England, depressing the temperatures here. For a while the
:47:46. > :47:51.rain could be heavy. This is the rain affecting Wimbledon earlier on
:47:51. > :47:56.in the day's play. That pushes away and brightens up eventually. We get
:47:56. > :48:01.sunshine. Humid air coming across the south and Wales, if the
:48:01. > :48:11.sunshine comes out temperatures could get as good as 22 or 23.
:48:11. > :48:21.