:00:13. > :00:20.gives the President a deadline to listen to the people calling on him
:00:20. > :00:23.to go. The most powerful force in the country has chosen a side. How
:00:23. > :00:28.long can the President last? We will hear from both sides of a
:00:28. > :00:32.divided country. And welcome to Dudley in the
:00:32. > :00:36.Midlands, the equivalent of every single television license from here
:00:36. > :00:44.was spent on kiss-offs to unwanted managers.
:00:44. > :00:48.Perhaps this man can explain it to us? Could massive on-line learning
:00:48. > :00:51.make universities redundant? Giving stuff away from free, who can have
:00:51. > :00:56.a problem with that? Except what if this is the big disruptive
:00:56. > :01:02.technology that is about to rip through higher education in the way
:01:03. > :01:06.that MP3s did through musics or Amazon did through book selling.
:01:06. > :01:09.The NSA whistleblower, Edward Snowden, accused America of
:01:09. > :01:12.illegally persecuting him. Is he about to claim asylum from that
:01:12. > :01:17.nice Mr Putin. The two girls shot by the Taliban
:01:17. > :01:20.for seeking an education, one of them came to the UK today where she
:01:20. > :01:25.met the United Nations education envoy.
:01:25. > :01:35.We are not and must not negotiate away the right of girls to have
:01:35. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:51.education in the search for a settlement. This wasn't how the
:01:51. > :01:59.Arab Spring was supposed to turn out. The protestors have given two
:01:59. > :02:02.days to bend to the Government's will or what? President Morsi was
:02:02. > :02:06.the popular vote of the people and that was last year, now they are
:02:06. > :02:10.demanding all sorts of other things off him. It seems there there is
:02:10. > :02:15.general agreement the stakes are very high ind deed. Once again
:02:15. > :02:21.hundreds of thousands of protestors have taken to Egypt's streets, and
:02:21. > :02:27.the country appears so divided some are predicting civil war. Another
:02:27. > :02:31.uprising, to correct one they say didn't work. And now most likely
:02:31. > :02:35.another intervention by Egypt's military in the country's politics.
:02:35. > :02:38.Hundreds of thousands are on the streets of Cairo, as they were
:02:38. > :02:44.during the Arab Spring two-and-a- half years ago and again they have
:02:44. > :02:47.been backed by the Armed Forces, just as they were then.
:02:47. > :02:50.Today Egypt's military chief described the current protests as
:02:50. > :02:54.an unprecedented expression of the people's will. He gave the
:02:54. > :03:02.Government 48 hours to respond. For the crowd that was already a
:03:02. > :03:09.victory. I think people are very jubilant
:03:09. > :03:12.about what the military had just stated about their support to the
:03:12. > :03:16.people's demands. And people are celebrating already five minutes
:03:16. > :03:22.after that statement. But there is one big difference between today's
:03:22. > :03:26.events and those of February 2011. Then the crowd, and the army,
:03:26. > :03:30.brought down a dictator, Hosni Mubarak, now the target is a
:03:30. > :03:34.datdically elected leader, the first in -- democratically elected
:03:34. > :03:39.leader, the first in Egypt's history, the Muslim Brotherhood's
:03:39. > :03:43.Steven Morris. A year ago many of these protestors voted for him.
:03:43. > :03:47.Today the Brotherhood's headquarters were ransacked and set
:03:47. > :03:51.aloyalty. The people say President Morsi has failed to keep his
:03:51. > :03:57.promises. First of all he had a programme of 100 days in which he
:03:57. > :04:05.would restore security, change the scene economically, bring around
:04:05. > :04:08.$200 billion in US involvement. We have seen none, we have only seen a
:04:08. > :04:13.loans policy that would put my kids in debt for the next 20 years. The
:04:13. > :04:17.other thing he did not take the measures we asked him to take to
:04:17. > :04:21.cleanse and purge the judiciary and security that was always there
:04:21. > :04:25.fighting behind the scenes. Brotherhood is accused of acting
:04:25. > :04:29.only to advance its own people and its own Islamist agenda. It pushed
:04:29. > :04:33.through a new constitution that many secular or liberal Egyptians
:04:33. > :04:38.feel won't protect them. The Coptic Christian minority in particular
:04:38. > :04:42.worries that the society is already becoming more Islamised.
:04:42. > :04:45.Prosecutions for allegedly insulting Islam are on the rise.
:04:45. > :04:51.Egypt's battered tourist industry was horrified recently when the
:04:51. > :04:56.former member of a radical Islamist group, linked to a 1997 terrorist
:04:56. > :05:01.attack on holiday makers was nominated governor of the resort of
:05:01. > :05:08.Luxor. It is the demand for daily bread, one of the key drivers of
:05:08. > :05:12.the 2011 protests, that is the problem on the poverty line. Living
:05:12. > :05:19.standards have dropped massively, food costs more, petrol and cooking
:05:19. > :05:24.gas are running short. Since 2011 foreign investment has fallen by
:05:24. > :05:28.56%. Foreign exchanges reserves are down by more than 60%. Inflation
:05:28. > :05:34.has climbed to more than 8% this year, while unemployment has
:05:34. > :05:36.reached 13%. So what will the army do now? The
:05:36. > :05:45.Brotherhood's new constitution aimed to safeguard military
:05:45. > :05:51.interests, but that can't compensate for decades of Embley
:05:51. > :05:55.anyoneity between the -- imknitity between the forces and the
:05:55. > :06:01.Government. The military says if he doesn't respond in two days they
:06:01. > :06:05.will come up with their own Road Map of the They will have to
:06:05. > :06:08.compromise with the opposition, run for presidential elections or sit
:06:08. > :06:12.with them and compromise on some sort of solution. If the President
:06:12. > :06:14.refuses I think what will happen is the army will directly intervene
:06:14. > :06:20.and take over for another transition period.
:06:20. > :06:23.And if the Brotherhood resists what would in effect be a coup, they are
:06:23. > :06:29.the most organised disciplined political force in Egypt, and they
:06:29. > :06:32.believe they have got democratic legitimacy on their side.
:06:32. > :06:36.safeguards for this process to be successful, some negotiations have
:06:37. > :06:41.to happen or has to take place with the Muslim Brotherhood, some sort
:06:41. > :06:45.of settlement for a safe exit and safe and peaceful transition. Now
:06:45. > :06:51.that is very critical and important and I think the only party that is
:06:51. > :06:55.capable of doing so is the military, if they are not really interested
:06:55. > :06:59.in power. But the potential for violence is there. Some Morsi
:06:59. > :07:04.supporters have already come armed with sticks to their own rival
:07:04. > :07:08.demonstrations. You had Algeria in 1992, Sudan 1989,
:07:08. > :07:12.many of these experiences suggest if you remove the elected President,
:07:12. > :07:15.with his supporters on the ground or an elected institutions with the
:07:15. > :07:22.supporters on the ground ready to fight with him, then you are
:07:22. > :07:26.descending into a vie lent situation. -- Violent situation.
:07:26. > :07:31.Whatever happens this crisis is setting two of the revolutionary
:07:31. > :07:35.forces, liberals and Islamists against each other. Despite all the
:07:35. > :07:38.hopes that accompanied their joint victory in the Arab Spring two
:07:38. > :07:44.years ago, it is clear now neither of them have understood what
:07:44. > :07:48.democracy involves. We are joined now from Cairo by the
:07:48. > :07:51.Egyptian novelist, Adhaf Soueif, and here in the studio by Rabaa al-
:07:51. > :07:55.Adawiya, a political activist and supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.
:07:55. > :08:03.You can't really be pleased that the army has intervened in politics
:08:03. > :08:08.again in your country can you? of course it would have been a lot
:08:08. > :08:14.better if President Morsi had lived up to the expectations that were
:08:14. > :08:18.placed on him. He made promises and he failed to keep them. He didn't
:08:18. > :08:24.even look like he was trying to put the country on the path that the
:08:24. > :08:29.country demanded. So really it was a continuation of Mubarak policies
:08:29. > :08:32.added to it was a level of inefficiency that was incredibly
:08:32. > :08:35.dangerous. Why what is happening is happening. I really wish it would
:08:36. > :08:40.have been otherwise. Welcome to democracy, politicians promise
:08:41. > :08:47.things they don't happen. That, I'm afraid is how democracy very often
:08:47. > :08:55.works. Do you accept that President Morsi has failed to deliver on many
:08:55. > :08:59.of his promises so far? I disagree with that. I think President Morsi
:08:59. > :09:05.is the first democratically elected civilian leader for Egypt, ever
:09:05. > :09:08.since the Pharaohs. We haven't had a democratically elected leader, we
:09:08. > :09:14.don't know democracy as you mentioned. I think we need time.
:09:14. > :09:17.Corruption has been rooted for decades, corruption has been in the
:09:17. > :09:25.Government. It took so long, President Morsi people have been
:09:25. > :09:28.wanting him out of office before he has even taken his place. There are
:09:28. > :09:32.20 one-million marches called against him. The first one is less
:09:32. > :09:36.than 40 days after he began in office. People wanted him to fail
:09:36. > :09:39.before beginning. Some people went out and said "down with the coming
:09:39. > :09:43.President", before the presidential elections. Some people wanted him
:09:43. > :09:47.down. Together, as revolutionaries, we actually should be wanting to
:09:47. > :09:54.build the country together. We need to come together, find a compromise
:09:54. > :09:57.and build the country. It is a worrying precedent dent, isn't it,
:09:57. > :10:06.when things -- precedent, isn't it, when things become difficult and
:10:06. > :10:10.people are glad that the military intervenes? Well you know I would
:10:10. > :10:15.like to make two points here, one is that President Morsi, yes, of
:10:15. > :10:18.course he was elected through the ballot box. But we really need to
:10:18. > :10:23.remember, as he didn't, that he came in on the back of a revolution.
:10:23. > :10:28.So the country is still in a state of revolution. It has made its
:10:28. > :10:31.wishes very clear that it wants to move towards human rights and it
:10:31. > :10:36.wants to move towards social justice. The fact that a President
:10:36. > :10:41.who comes on the back of a revolution and doesn't fulfil,
:10:41. > :10:45.doesn't even move towards either of these two aims is very serious.
:10:45. > :10:50.Let's also remember that there were five million who voted for
:10:50. > :10:58.President Morsi in the first round, he added eight million to those, on
:10:58. > :11:02.the basis of very, very clear promises. He knew that these eight
:11:02. > :11:04.million were not really his constituency, but they voted for
:11:04. > :11:08.him because of the promises and because of the very difficult
:11:08. > :11:12.circumstances that the country was in, so out of a wish to move
:11:12. > :11:20.forward. So basically to back out on those is really serious. The
:11:20. > :11:24.other thing is, we have inherited a lot of baggage from the Mubarak era,
:11:24. > :11:29.and the country can't afford four years of not moving forward at all.
:11:29. > :11:34.And there is a flaw, I think, in the democratic process where if
:11:34. > :11:38.things, I mean I think people need to think, legal minds need to think
:11:38. > :11:46.about how you can break a contract when it is clearly not working.
:11:46. > :11:55.Fine, so what do you want him to do, to step down? I think, I personally
:11:55. > :11:58.think that the best thing for him now would be to show some open-
:11:58. > :12:02.mindedness and inclusiveness which he has failed to show so far, I
:12:02. > :12:06.would really like him to stay as President. I think that would be
:12:06. > :12:14.better for the country and better for the unity of the country. But I
:12:14. > :12:18.would like to see the association of the Muslim Brotherhood disbanded
:12:18. > :12:22.it has served its function, it has no place in the political life of
:12:22. > :12:26.the country. A lot of his problems have been because he's being
:12:26. > :12:28.perceived to be listening to the supreme guide of the Muslim
:12:28. > :12:36.Brotherhood rather than his constituency, which is the Egyptian
:12:36. > :12:40.people. There is now the Freedom and Justice Party, born of the
:12:40. > :12:43.Muslim Brotherhood, he can be a card-carrying member of that, but
:12:43. > :12:48.the Muslim Brotherhood association should be disbanded. That is the
:12:48. > :12:51.first thing. I will interrupt you because our guest here in the
:12:51. > :12:55.studio is looking wry and distressed at your suggestion that
:12:55. > :12:59.the Muslim Brotherhood be disbanded, don't you think it has served its
:12:59. > :13:04.purpose? As a member of the Muslim Brotherhood personally, I think, I
:13:04. > :13:08.need the right to actually be a part of the Muslim Brotherhood if I
:13:08. > :13:13.wish so. I need to be what I think I want to be. This revolution, I
:13:13. > :13:20.first met you when you came to visit Cambridge, I met you straight
:13:20. > :13:24.after the revolution in 2011 and we were together wanting democracy and
:13:24. > :13:27.positive change. We wanted as you said, human rights, we wanted civil
:13:27. > :13:32.rights, we wanted everyone to do whatever they wanted to do within
:13:32. > :13:36.the boundaries of law. So I don't think anyone should say what the
:13:36. > :13:39.Muslim Brotherhood should or shouldn't do, as long as it should
:13:39. > :13:43.be within the boundaries of law, that Egyptian people should pass
:13:43. > :13:46.through the parliament. I think we need to go to the parliamentary
:13:46. > :13:51.elections and instead of taking everything to the street. Because
:13:51. > :13:54.what happened today, I got a phone call on the way to the studio today
:13:54. > :13:57.and millions of Muslim Brotherhood supporters are gathering now,
:13:57. > :14:00.initially they didn't want to gather yesterday because they
:14:01. > :14:04.didn't want confrontation, but I think the BBC report before the
:14:04. > :14:07.beginning of the show they failed to show the extent of the support
:14:07. > :14:12.the mother brotherhood still has on the streets. Thank you very much
:14:12. > :14:15.both of you. People who work at the BBC have
:14:15. > :14:18.been aware for years that at a senior level there was a gravy
:14:18. > :14:22.train running through the building, a board which most of the staff
:14:22. > :14:28.would never be able to -- aboard which most of the staff would never
:14:28. > :14:31.be be able to scramble. But the generosity of the license fee
:14:31. > :14:35.payers' money only became clear today after a public investigation
:14:35. > :14:40.into the pay-offs for senior figures. The BBC has been deep low
:14:40. > :14:50.shocked by the disclosures. Hardly any of the beneficiaries have
:14:50. > :14:54.lifted their snouts out of the trough to make any comment. We will
:14:54. > :14:58.be talking to one in a while. Steven Smith reports. It is not a
:14:58. > :15:03.BBC manager skipping all the way to the bank, I can see why you might
:15:04. > :15:08.think that, in fact this was the first live show from TV centre in
:15:08. > :15:13.west London. You may have shed a tear when the place closed earlier
:15:13. > :15:16.this year. The National Audit Office was weeping tears of
:15:16. > :15:22.incredulity today at the golden goodbyes the Beeb paid to some of
:15:22. > :15:27.the men and women behind the scenes. It handed �25 million to 150
:15:27. > :15:33.executives. Including �680,000 for Chief
:15:33. > :15:38.Operating Officer Caroline Thompson who spent 17 years at the
:15:38. > :15:46.corporation. �866,000 for a departmental director with 25 years
:15:46. > :15:51.service. And almost �950,000 for BBC lifer Tanya Byron, former
:15:51. > :15:56.deputy DG. The biggest ten payouts came to more than �5 million on
:15:56. > :16:00.their own. I think the BBC is totally out-of-touch with its
:16:00. > :16:04.viewers in terms of how it uses license fee payers' money. It has
:16:04. > :16:09.been out-of-touch for some time. You have to look at the series of
:16:09. > :16:13.scandals that have come about in the last couple of years. The
:16:13. > :16:16.biggest of which is probably the Digital Media Initiative, where
:16:16. > :16:20.over �100 million of license fee payers' money was simply wasted on
:16:20. > :16:25.a project that was really never going to work, according to the
:16:25. > :16:30.people who looked at it. This is an astonishing set of scandals that
:16:30. > :16:34.seem to go on and on. The National Audit Office said the BBC breached
:16:34. > :16:40.its on already generous severence terms. The Government said the
:16:40. > :16:44.report exposed a culture of pay- offs that was out of control. Some
:16:44. > :16:47.observers question the role of the BBC Trust. The problem is here on a
:16:47. > :16:52.succession of cases that all find their way back to the BBC Trust,
:16:52. > :16:55.who can say that the rules are constructed in such a way as to
:16:55. > :17:00.prevent them intervening directly in some of these things. That is
:17:01. > :17:03.true, but from the point of view of a license payer, if those rules
:17:03. > :17:07.prevent the Trust from holding management to account effectively,
:17:07. > :17:12.the argument for changing the rules becomes unavoidable. Whether you
:17:12. > :17:16.like it or not, and they will not like it. The argument, a discussion,
:17:16. > :17:21.another debate about BBC governance seems to me to be more or less
:17:21. > :17:26.inevitable. We do not run the BBC, as you know, we are specifically
:17:26. > :17:29.excluded on remuneration matters from handling anything other than
:17:29. > :17:33.Director Generals, however we have asked the Director General to
:17:33. > :17:39.report back to us and we want to make sure the new rules he has put
:17:39. > :17:42.in place are implemented correctly. The DG Lord Hall said the BBC had
:17:42. > :17:47.saved more by trimming its executive tiers than it spent on
:17:47. > :17:53.severence. And pay-offs are now capped at �150,000. Manager Roly
:17:53. > :18:01.Keating, who left last year for a job at the British Library
:18:01. > :18:06.collected �376,000 on his way out. That payment was called "seriously
:18:06. > :18:09.deficient", Mr Keating has returned the money. Those who specialise in
:18:09. > :18:14.finding executives for media companies are baffled by the BBC's
:18:14. > :18:18.generosity. We have been in a negotiation with a director leaving
:18:18. > :18:22.one media business to go to another, the thought of him being paid a
:18:22. > :18:29.goodbye exit to leave that company and go to another one is laughable
:18:29. > :18:34.really. And that, I think, is massive open goal and where the BBC
:18:34. > :18:38.and the BBC trustees really have shot themselves in the foot.
:18:38. > :18:42.Poles show viewers love their favourite shows. But -- polls show
:18:42. > :18:47.viewers love their favourite shows, but the clock is ticking on BBC
:18:47. > :18:51.large guess. We have the director of strategy
:18:51. > :18:57.and digital at the BBC with us, what has gone wrong? We lost our
:18:57. > :19:04.way on payments. It is a humbling report, there is some extremely
:19:04. > :19:11.embarrassing mistakes that were made. We need it learn lessons.
:19:11. > :19:16.you give us a guarantee that there will be nobody else leaving the BBC
:19:16. > :19:22.a pay-off of �150,000 or more? Hall said that on the first day in
:19:22. > :19:29.the job. I'm told it hasn't come into effect. In the report it makes
:19:29. > :19:33.clear there are up to 15 people who already had letters and we can't
:19:33. > :19:37.unpick that. There will be people leaving with more than �150,000?
:19:37. > :19:42.From the 1st of September people will be expected to leave with less
:19:42. > :19:45.than �150,000. On his second day in the job Tony Hall said the payments
:19:45. > :19:49.were too high and unacceptable and that is why he brought in a cap.
:19:49. > :19:53.That was months ago? That was on the second day of the job. He
:19:53. > :19:56.spotted it on his second day in the job. That was months ago, why not
:19:56. > :19:59.implement it immediately? Because you have to negotiate to get it
:19:59. > :20:03.brought in. So people can refuse can they? Some people had already
:20:03. > :20:08.had letters sent to them saying these were the terms, and we will
:20:08. > :20:12.not unpick them. Why not?Because it would be basically illegal to do
:20:12. > :20:17.so. Why not try?It is actually a tough decision he has taken. It
:20:17. > :20:24.would be easy to say it is for new joiners. He said it is for
:20:24. > :20:28.everybody at the BBC, no-one will leave for more than �150,000, most
:20:28. > :20:35.will get far less. Can you help us on the decision made that Roly
:20:35. > :20:40.Keating should get �375,000. Money which he has honourably now repaid?
:20:40. > :20:45.That decision was not taken by the Director General, it was apparently
:20:45. > :20:49.not taken by the head of human resources, who did take it? They
:20:49. > :20:56.got themselves into a muddle, people thought one thing was going
:20:56. > :21:00.on, and another other people think it was something else. That is why
:21:00. > :21:04.we have to apologise. Who took the decision? It was a collective
:21:05. > :21:09.decision. You can have a witch-hunt or say learn from our mistakes,
:21:09. > :21:14.that is what we will do. I thought we were in an era of transparency?
:21:14. > :21:21.You say three months ago is too far away, but today we say that
:21:21. > :21:26.everybody who leaves for the next few months it will be brought to a
:21:26. > :21:31.senior remuneration committee. you disclose who will sign this
:21:31. > :21:35.off? The NAO have all the information. There is no name?It
:21:35. > :21:43.was clear it was signed off by a combination of HR, finance and they
:21:43. > :21:48.got it wrong. The Director General didn't sign off on it and others
:21:48. > :21:55.didn't know anybody about it? Did the person who signed off on it
:21:55. > :21:59.still work at the BBC? It was a mess, but I can say this was about
:21:59. > :22:02.saving far more money than the cost of license fees in Dudley. We are
:22:02. > :22:05.saving just about �20 million every year going forward. Yes we could
:22:05. > :22:10.have done it for less money, certainly we could have done it in
:22:10. > :22:14.a much better way, but we are saving �20 million a year. We
:22:14. > :22:19.reduce the number of senior managers at the BBC by over 200.
:22:19. > :22:22.There was a very serious mistake made here, in the spirit of the new
:22:22. > :22:27.transparency, aren't people entitled to know who made the
:22:27. > :22:32.mistake and whether they still work for the about of BC? What happens
:22:32. > :22:37.with trans-- BBC?What was about transparency is you need to find
:22:37. > :22:43.out who makes the mistakes, and we don't need a witch-hunt but to
:22:43. > :22:47.learn from mistakes and show the license payers we are moving
:22:47. > :22:51.forward and the license fee has been frozep. Do you believe the BBC
:22:51. > :22:55.Trust last shown itself to be a responsible custodian of license-
:22:55. > :22:59.fee payers money? I think it is unfair to blame the Trust for this,
:22:59. > :23:02.this is clearly not their job. It is our job as the executive to set
:23:02. > :23:07.the pay for people, it is the non- executive's job as well. The Trust
:23:07. > :23:14.asked for this report. It was clearly something that was a
:23:14. > :23:18.collective responsibility of the managers and the BBC. In the spirit
:23:18. > :23:22.of transparency where was your job advertised? Tony Hall brought in
:23:22. > :23:24.people he thought were right for the job and others were advertised.
:23:24. > :23:28.When you are putting a team together you make some appointments
:23:28. > :23:32.that way. Is it fair?It was his decision. It is not transparent?
:23:32. > :23:37.There is a balance between getting the right people and running the
:23:37. > :23:41.process. Sometimes, in my case he went, it is always difficult to
:23:41. > :23:46.defend your own circumstances, in my case he wanted me.
:23:46. > :23:49.Is it a worthwhile responsible way to use public money? Obviously Tony
:23:49. > :23:53.thought so. The thing we are focused on is delivering a much
:23:53. > :23:56.better value BBC. That is what we will do. It is not transparent?The
:23:56. > :24:00.report today is extremely transparent. Your appointment
:24:00. > :24:04.isn't? We will make sure we learn the lessons of today and we have
:24:04. > :24:09.banned the use of payments in lieu of notice, that was one of the
:24:09. > :24:15.other things the report was worried about. We said no-one will get more
:24:15. > :24:18.than �150,000. We have said all the deals over �75,000 will go to a
:24:18. > :24:23.senior remuneration committee. were hand picked and not appointed
:24:23. > :24:26.as a result of an open and fair competition? No-one argues that,
:24:26. > :24:30.Tony made some appointments that he brought in and others were
:24:30. > :24:32.advertised. Anybody in business. is exact ly the same sort of
:24:32. > :24:35.culture that paid people vast amounts of money when they didn't
:24:35. > :24:40.need to be paid vast amounts of money? It is the opposite of that
:24:40. > :24:45.culture. In the second day he said there will be a cap and acted to
:24:45. > :24:49.improve processes. We got some things badly wrong and we have
:24:49. > :24:52.apologised for that and we have to move forward and learn the lessons.
:24:52. > :24:55.Do you think other people should have had a chance to compete for
:24:55. > :24:59.your job? It is Tony's decision. People in business do this all the
:24:59. > :25:04.time they decide who they want to get, they bring in some by
:25:04. > :25:08.approaching them in the way I was, and others go through the process.
:25:08. > :25:12.I'm happy working at the Beeb and happy to come on your programme any
:25:12. > :25:18.time. Supposing that instead of going to
:25:18. > :25:22.live in some crummy bedsit in Pot Noodle land so you can have the
:25:22. > :25:25.opportunity to listen to a burned out hack delivering the same
:25:25. > :25:34.lecture that he has been doing for 20 years, instead you could stay at
:25:34. > :25:39.home and hear some of the best lecturers in the world. The idea of
:25:39. > :25:43.MOOCs on-line courses seems to promise a future of higher
:25:43. > :25:53.education, an alternative to an expensive traditional one. We have
:25:53. > :25:56.
:25:56. > :26:00.this report. Not to be confused with a Mog or a moog, it is MOOC.
:26:00. > :26:06.It stands for massive on-line open course, and it shows signs of being
:26:06. > :26:12.really big. Even bigger than that. I think MOOC has a huge potential.
:26:12. > :26:16.The technology that enables one professor to teach not just 100
:26:16. > :26:21.students but 100,000, that changes the economics of higher education.
:26:21. > :26:25.What is a MOOC? It is parceled up bit of education, enrolment is
:26:25. > :26:29.unlimited, massive. There are no entry requirements, it is open, on-
:26:29. > :26:34.line and it is a course. At the moment the big players in the MOOC
:26:34. > :26:39.world are in the United States, on the east coast there is Harvard and
:26:39. > :26:43.MIT, on the west coast Stanford, this isn't about going fee. Anyone
:26:43. > :26:48.anywhere in the world with a computer -- geography. Anyone
:26:48. > :26:55.anywhere in the world with a computer can have access to the
:26:55. > :26:59.best professors in the world. What about competitive strategy, Roman
:26:59. > :27:06.architecture, or different relation equations in action. Not a bad
:27:06. > :27:09.place to start is the machine learning MOOC from Stanford. The
:27:09. > :27:14.man who teaches that is the Godfather? About two years ago I
:27:14. > :27:20.put one of my classes on-line and it reached an audience of 100,000
:27:21. > :27:25.students. To put that in context I used to teach 400 students a year
:27:25. > :27:29.in Stanford. To reach a comparable audience I would have to teach at
:27:29. > :27:35.Stanford for 250 years. I got together with one of my friends and
:27:35. > :27:38.we started to take the technology that my team had developed and to
:27:38. > :27:43.partner with top universities so anyone can learn from the best
:27:43. > :27:52.professors and universities. MOOC isn't a one-way exercise,
:27:52. > :27:57.there are assessments, assignments and quizs on-line. It is a short
:27:57. > :28:03.step to go to real life qualifications gained entirely
:28:03. > :28:10.through MOOCs. We are told some employers are showing favour to
:28:10. > :28:15.shows who are "Mooked up". It is opening the door to more interviews.
:28:15. > :28:21.When employer yes, sir see you have taken advanced glass -- when an
:28:21. > :28:25.employer sees you have taken advanced classes from tan Ford or
:28:25. > :28:30.wherever it is -- Stanford or other universities it brings more
:28:30. > :28:33.interview. Given our glorious and proud tradition of distance
:28:33. > :28:38.learning as exsemplified by the Open university, if you fell in
:28:38. > :28:44.front of the TV in the 1970s, chances are you woke up at 2.00am
:28:44. > :28:48.to see this. The way we calculate rate of thing we get an idea...The
:28:48. > :28:58.People who brought you back are teeming up with 21 other
:28:58. > :28:59.
:28:59. > :29:04.universities to launch future learn, a British MOOC initiative. They
:29:04. > :29:08.plan to go live in August, this is not about increasing education but
:29:08. > :29:11.widening access? This isn't a redistribution of education, this
:29:11. > :29:19.is about trying to use a connected environment of the web to deliver
:29:19. > :29:23.something different. To reinvent lenk in -- learning in some way.
:29:23. > :29:27.Using the on-line social networking tools available to do something
:29:28. > :29:33.different and fresh. Critically toe make sure that we're not just
:29:33. > :29:36.pumping out information but people are actually learning through what
:29:36. > :29:39.-- critically to make sure we are not just pumping out information
:29:39. > :29:44.but people are learning. In the United States where they are most
:29:44. > :29:48.advanced they are being led by the biggest names in higher education,
:29:48. > :29:53.places like Harvard and Yale. In Britain some of our biggest names
:29:53. > :29:56.are holding back. Here at Oxford they say MOOCs won't prompt them to
:29:56. > :30:01.change anything they do. Is this clever brand management or could
:30:01. > :30:08.they miss the boat? Oxford delivers degrees in way which really sets a
:30:08. > :30:11.premium on the tutoral experience and the teaching on a one-to-one or
:30:11. > :30:14.two-to-two basis. Other universities deliver a lot of their
:30:14. > :30:20.courses primarily through lectures. MOOCs are a further extension of
:30:20. > :30:26.that. You have to accept, I think, however exciting the concept of the
:30:26. > :30:29.MOOC is, that there is necessarily some loss when you are not in a
:30:29. > :30:32.person-to-person environment. The MOOC, from my perspective, can
:30:33. > :30:37.never really substitute for that. People are giving this stuff away
:30:37. > :30:40.for free, who could have a problem with that? Except what if this is
:30:40. > :30:46.the big disruptive technology that is about to rip through higher
:30:46. > :30:50.education in a way that MP3s did through music or the Amazon store
:30:50. > :30:54.did through book selling. There are big thinkers who believe the cost
:30:54. > :30:58.of higher education will have to come down and MOOCs are one way to
:30:58. > :31:05.achieve that. Recently Bill Clinton said "I think the only sustainable
:31:05. > :31:08.answer is to find a less expensive delivery system...we simply can't
:31:08. > :31:14.continue to have the cost of a university education to go up at
:31:14. > :31:16.twice the rate of inflation every decade". In the United States the
:31:17. > :31:26.California state universities are experimenting using MOOCs to
:31:27. > :31:29.
:31:29. > :31:37.replace some courses. San Jose University was to offer a MOOC on
:31:37. > :31:43.Mikele Sandell's on social justice. But the faculty said no. They wrote
:31:43. > :31:50.an open letter to Professor Sandell and said" professors who care about
:31:50. > :31:55.public education should not produce products that will replace
:31:55. > :31:59.professors and dismantle education". If MOOCs take hold there are plenty
:31:59. > :32:03.of implications to consider. Will we need as many universities and
:32:03. > :32:07.academics in the future. Can people do their university degrees without
:32:07. > :32:11.ever leaving home? In Britain and other places, where the cost of
:32:11. > :32:18.higher education is a huge political issue, this could be the
:32:18. > :32:23.route to lower costs. If so at what cost? Generally when the Internet
:32:23. > :32:29.hits an industry, it tends to find basic inefficiencies in it and
:32:29. > :32:34.enable a better delivery of some of those aspects. I'm sure a
:32:34. > :32:39.combination of on-line delivery and campus delivery can deliver some
:32:39. > :32:44.aspects of education more cheaply than purely a campus-based
:32:44. > :32:48.experience. But I think the primary opportunity of MOOCs really is to
:32:48. > :32:53.just broaden access to a whole range of people who otherwise would
:32:53. > :32:57.never have had had access to these courses. Talk to people who are
:32:57. > :33:00.enthusiastic about MOOCs and they will say any institution not
:33:00. > :33:05.getting involved right now is suicidally short-sighted. In fact
:33:05. > :33:10.you don't have to talk to them for very long before various flightless
:33:10. > :33:15.birds get referenced. There is a real danger if we are doing animal
:33:15. > :33:19.metaphors there is a danger of a lemming-like rush, if I can do that,
:33:19. > :33:22.we must do MOOCs because everybody else is. Well if you are confident
:33:22. > :33:25.in the product you have, you don't rush to join everybody else. You
:33:25. > :33:31.keep an eye on what is happening, if you want to develop your own
:33:31. > :33:36.version you do so in your own time on your own terms. No-one can say
:33:36. > :33:39.why MOOCs will lead or where the money will come from. Most MOOC
:33:39. > :33:43.providers are commercial ventures, but what is the business plan. What
:33:43. > :33:50.we can safely say is their prospects depend on whether they
:33:50. > :33:54.improve the prospects of people who take MOOC, if you excuse me I will
:33:54. > :34:01.get to my machine learning MOOC at Stanford. One advantage of the way
:34:01. > :34:06.of learning, none of the restriks of the past apply. This is a
:34:06. > :34:15.restrictions of the past apply. Are you eating? I hope you have enough
:34:15. > :34:22.for everyone, because there is 100,000 of us here!
:34:22. > :34:25.Universities and Science Minister is with me now. Can you see MOOCs
:34:25. > :34:30.replacing traditional university? can't see them replacing them but
:34:30. > :34:33.they are a significant change in education. So what they some how
:34:33. > :34:37.augment the university experience or what? What we can see them doing
:34:37. > :34:41.is first of all in developing countries, that do not yet have a
:34:41. > :34:45.network of bricks and mortar universities, and have great
:34:45. > :34:50.ambitions for rapid growth, this might be how they help toe deliver
:34:50. > :34:52.an increased higher education. Second -- help to deliver an
:34:53. > :34:58.increased higher education. Secondly I think they will change
:34:58. > :35:01.how we learn. When you are on a MOOC, doing a maths MOOC, they will
:35:01. > :35:07.identify 30% of our students made this mistake at this stage of the
:35:07. > :35:14.maths course, they then had to retreat. The education an litics,
:35:14. > :35:18.how we learn, where you make -- an litics, and how we learn and how we
:35:18. > :35:22.make mistakes. You were at Christ Church at Oxford, one of the finest
:35:22. > :35:27.universities in the world, some of the most beautiful buildings, you
:35:27. > :35:31.wouldn't have rather been at home looking at a screen would you?
:35:31. > :35:36.And one of the things MOOCs will do, in the language of the arrival of
:35:36. > :35:40.the web into these services, they will disintermediate, Oxford and
:35:40. > :35:45.other leading universities will be able to recruit down the world by
:35:45. > :35:50.people who start by doing a MOOC. They will use the fact that someone
:35:50. > :35:55.in Mongolia does well in the physics MOOC spot talent out there.
:35:55. > :36:00.I think it is good news for our universities' recruitment. You are
:36:00. > :36:06.not worried about the lemming-like leap on to the bandwagon? I think
:36:06. > :36:11.MOOCs will be a very important part of the educational landscape. David
:36:11. > :36:16.gave the analogy with music. We all have Spotify and listening to music
:36:16. > :36:20.on-line. Last weekend hundreds of thousands of people went to
:36:20. > :36:24.Glastonbury. They didn't listen to it on their iPhone but the physical
:36:24. > :36:28.experience of listening to music. I think there will be a mixture of
:36:28. > :36:33.on-line learning and people wanting the physical experience of being in
:36:33. > :36:37.a seminar with fellow students. you think there is a danger that
:36:37. > :36:41.less affluent students will see it as a more economic way to get an
:36:41. > :36:47.education. In that sense you will have a divide between those who can
:36:47. > :36:57.afford to go to university and those who prefer the cheaper option
:36:57. > :36:58.
:36:58. > :37:01.on-line. It could be a cheaper low cost option. Students that go to
:37:01. > :37:11.university they are not paying up front, it will be a choice of how
:37:11. > :37:30.
:37:30. > :37:34.people wish to study. There may be mature stew dints. They may be able
:37:34. > :37:38.to recruit more widely because of MOOCs, they may have mature
:37:38. > :37:42.students who learn differently, it will be a mix. MOOCs, I think will
:37:42. > :37:46.be a big and important part of the landscape. Are you confident that
:37:46. > :37:52.British universities are wised up enough to the commercial importance
:37:52. > :37:57.of this? Two years ago when I first came across these on the west coast
:37:57. > :38:07.of the US, they were ahead of us. And I'm very pleased that Open
:38:07. > :38:07.
:38:07. > :38:11.university is now trying to develop Fuerture -- Future Learn. If we
:38:11. > :38:15.have got, as I believe we have, a British education product. Then the
:38:15. > :38:19.arrival of the MOOCs an opportunity for people around the world to see
:38:19. > :38:22.the quality of British higher education. I think we can, I think
:38:22. > :38:27.British higher education will probably gain from this. We will
:38:27. > :38:37.have more people around the world who decide, having done the MOOC
:38:37. > :38:38.
:38:38. > :38:41.for the University of Edinburgh, I want to study that. Edward Snowden,
:38:41. > :38:49.the man the National Security Agency would most like to talk to
:38:49. > :38:53.is said to have applied for politic kal asylum in Russia. President
:38:53. > :38:57.Putin says he's not welcome there unless he stops damaging American
:38:57. > :39:07.interests. Tonight a letter has appeared from Snowden attacking
:39:07. > :39:27.
:39:27. > :39:37.America for persecuting him as he It has to be said it is his appeal
:39:37. > :39:37.
:39:37. > :39:47.in Ecuador, the news emerged and predates the developments we have
:39:47. > :39:54.
:39:54. > :39:57.heard today now. Wikileaks saying stand by for a statement from
:39:57. > :40:05.Edward Snowden but we haven't had that. There is an extraordinary
:40:05. > :40:10.chain of events, what is Putin's gain? I think we can say it is
:40:10. > :40:14.America's political discomfort. He wants to get the maximum political
:40:14. > :40:19.mileage from it. At the same time the fascinating thing is he sees a
:40:19. > :40:25.lot of res prosity with cases of people in the UK and the US who
:40:25. > :40:29.Russia wants to get hold of, businessmen, opposition people who
:40:29. > :40:37.he can't, therefore he wants to control, if indeed Edward Snowden
:40:37. > :40:41.is about to get asylum in Russia what he can say. This is what he
:40:41. > :40:47.said today. TRANSLATION: If he likes to stay here, there is one
:40:47. > :40:56.condition, he should see his work aimed at damaging our American
:40:56. > :40:59.partners. No matter how strange it will sound from me.
:41:00. > :41:02.Do you think Snowden has lot of secrets on him that the Russians
:41:02. > :41:08.would find useful? There are different versions of this, some
:41:08. > :41:12.suggested that he had left the key material in safe hands before he
:41:12. > :41:15.fled Hong Kong, and could, for example, through use of code words
:41:15. > :41:19.or friendly intermediaries allow this information to get out to
:41:19. > :41:23.third parties. Should he choose to do so. Others way he took
:41:23. > :41:29.everything with him, we know that the German news manage zeen has
:41:29. > :41:33.published a magazine since he has been -- magazine has published a
:41:33. > :41:37.letter. Clearly what he has with him is encrypted. It is an open
:41:37. > :41:40.question if he stays in Russia what becomes of that material. One thing
:41:40. > :41:44.is clear from what President Putin said today, they don't want him
:41:44. > :41:48.running a media service if they do give him asylum. Thank you very
:41:48. > :41:56.much. Now before the end of the programme we will have tomorrow's
:41:56. > :42:00.front pages. First, when 15-year-old Malala was
:42:00. > :42:05.shot by the Taliban simply for wanting an education for herself
:42:05. > :42:09.and other Pakistani girls, it sparked global outrage, Malala
:42:09. > :42:17.survived being shot in the head. She's studying in the UK. Today one
:42:17. > :42:21.of her friends injured in the attack also arrived here. Shazia
:42:21. > :42:28.Ramzan, whose story we featured in April, travelled with the support
:42:28. > :42:32.of Gordon Brown, who these days is Special Envoy for global education.
:42:32. > :42:36.Newsround reported the story for us and spoke to her and the former
:42:36. > :42:44.Prime Minister about what it is like for girls trying to study in
:42:44. > :42:49.Pakistan's Swat Valley. 15-year-old Shazia loves going to school and
:42:49. > :42:55.dreams of becoming a doctor. Last October as she sat on her school
:42:55. > :42:58.bus a gunman climbed on board, his intention was to kill her friend
:42:58. > :43:01.Malala. TRANSLATION: I can't tell you who they were, but my life
:43:01. > :43:05.completely changed after the incident. Before it we could freely
:43:05. > :43:14.go anywhere we liked on our own. Now we must be accompanied by
:43:14. > :43:19.guards who will tell us not to go out. That incident was a planned
:43:19. > :43:23.attack on Malala they planned to kill her for campaigning for girls'
:43:23. > :43:27.education. She was left in a critical condition and scenes of
:43:27. > :43:34.her bloodied body sent shockwaves around the world. She was taken to
:43:34. > :43:39.Birmingham for treatment but Shazara spent a month in hospital.
:43:39. > :43:43.Although not a target her life changed unimagineably after the
:43:43. > :43:48.shooting. Both girls became heroines throughout the world
:43:48. > :43:52.reveered for their bravery. Malala received a Nobel Peace Prize
:43:52. > :43:56.nomination. Things are different back in the Swat Valley, some
:43:56. > :43:59.friends and relatives feared being associated with him for fear of
:43:59. > :44:06.becoming the next target for the Taliban. TRANSLATION: Some girls
:44:06. > :44:09.are confident others are looking at how Malala sacrificed for her
:44:09. > :44:13.education and they become scared and no longer study. Some mothers
:44:13. > :44:23.tell their daughters what can happen to Malala can happen to them,
:44:23. > :44:26.
:44:26. > :44:29.don't seek education and don't go to school any more. I met her and
:44:29. > :44:34.she was excited and optimistic about living in the Swat Valley.
:44:34. > :44:38.TRANSLATION: Our fight is for he hadcation, they say girls shouldn't
:44:38. > :44:43.get education and we say they will because it is our right. Since then
:44:43. > :44:47.life has taken its toll, she has come to the UK to continue her
:44:47. > :44:51.studies without the fear of Taliban attack. TRANSLATION: Even my
:44:51. > :44:54.parents will tell me my life is under threat. We want to go out and
:44:54. > :44:58.have fun but we were stopped, and we couldn't go from school to a
:44:58. > :45:02.friend's place because our guards would come looking for. So life has
:45:02. > :45:08.changed a lot. Of course it is important we are educated, it is
:45:08. > :45:12.really tough back there and now I have come here to be educated.
:45:12. > :45:17.Although it is good to see her again, I know she has a chance to
:45:17. > :45:20.become a school and maybe a doctor one day, the reason she fled
:45:20. > :45:26.Pakistan remain, the Swat Valley has been a long standing stronghold
:45:26. > :45:30.for the Taliban, it is only the Pakistani army enforcing the
:45:30. > :45:33.fragile peace. TRANSLATION: army has done a lot to control the
:45:33. > :45:37.situation. If the Taliban qum back nobody can stop them. If the army
:45:37. > :45:39.is not there, nobody can stop them and they will rule over us and we
:45:39. > :45:43.would have to do everything according to their wish. They
:45:43. > :45:48.should think of the parents who send their daughters to school only
:45:48. > :45:54.to know that the girls have been killed. Special education envoy to
:45:54. > :45:56.the UN, Gordon Brown, has been working to bring Shazia over to the
:45:56. > :46:01.UK. Does he think the west should be talking to the Taliban for
:46:01. > :46:04.lasting peace in the region if girls like Shazia are attacked for
:46:04. > :46:07.wanting to go to schools? I think we should make it clear human
:46:07. > :46:10.rights are an eye seings part of the negotiation, if we are talking
:46:10. > :46:14.to militants and extremists, they have to be prepared to say that
:46:14. > :46:17.they accept the right of every girl and boy to have education,
:46:17. > :46:21.particularly that girls should not be discriminated against in the
:46:21. > :46:25.future. We can't have a situation where we move from building schools
:46:25. > :46:29.and got lots of girls, particularly in Afghanistan to school and then
:46:29. > :46:32.the schools closed down. We must make it a central part of the
:46:32. > :46:37.negotiation that human rights are respected. She now has to make a
:46:37. > :46:40.new life for herself while she studies in the UK. For every girls
:46:40. > :46:43.like these girls there are millions of girls in Pakistan that go
:46:43. > :46:50.without an education. You can watch more about that story
:46:50. > :46:56.and the struggle for girls' education in Pakistan in Shot For
:46:56. > :46:59.Going To School on BBC Three on Wednesday at 9.00. Mark Urban has
:46:59. > :47:02.come back to join us. Edward Snowden has issued the promised
:47:02. > :47:07.statement, what has he said? He has essentially attacked President
:47:07. > :47:12.Obama. He said there would be no wheeling and dealing but he got
:47:12. > :47:16.Vice President Biden to ring people up, countries that Edward Snowden
:47:16. > :47:21.had asked to consider his asylum bid and asked them not to. He
:47:21. > :47:26.describes himself as a stateless person and hints he's more or less
:47:26. > :47:30.out of options. It doesn't say he's seeking asylum in Russia.
:47:30. > :47:40.That's about it for tonight, we will be back again tomorrow, do
:47:40. > :47:44.
:47:44. > :47:47.will be back again tomorrow, do join us then if you can.
:47:47. > :47:53.A different weather day tomorrow, sunshine in eastern areas, giving
:47:53. > :48:03.way to cloud. A lot of cloud across the country and grey southern skies
:48:03. > :48:03.
:48:03. > :48:07.Feel cool in the rain as well, temperatures around 12-14. Eastern
:48:07. > :48:11.Scotland, some breaks in the rain, afternoon damper than the morning.
:48:11. > :48:17.Same can be said for northern England. Rain coming and going, the
:48:17. > :48:20.odd heavier burst mixing amongst that. Damp through the east Midland.
:48:20. > :48:24.The south-east, can't rule out the threat of one or two showers in the
:48:24. > :48:27.afternoon. Close to Wimbledon, the main threat will be in the evening.
:48:27. > :48:30.Wetter afternoon than morning across parts of south-west England
:48:30. > :48:35.and Wales. There will be still some dry weather around, some of the
:48:35. > :48:39.bursts of rain could be on the heavy side and accompanied by a
:48:39. > :48:45.strong breeze, not the best start to a July day. Some slight changes
:48:45. > :48:50.into Wednesday. The City forecasts you will notice Manchester, Belfast,
:48:50. > :48:53.Inverness all looking dryer on Wednesday, brighter, warmer, same
:48:53. > :48:57.into London, Cardiff, Birmingham and Bristol. After a grey and damp