:00:14. > :00:20.The clock is ticking in Cairo, the protests are unabated and the
:00:20. > :00:25.military's deadline approaches. As the unelected Egyptian military
:00:25. > :00:30.glitters in the affection of protestors, while the
:00:30. > :00:35.democratically chosen presidency seems paralysed what is the will of
:00:35. > :00:45.the people? What does the rest of the Middle East make of it all?
:00:45. > :00:52.
:00:52. > :00:56.Well now, let's start in Egypt, the Obama administration is telling
:00:56. > :01:02.President Morsi to respect the wishes of the people, but there is
:01:02. > :01:06.no sign of bridges being built and the Egyptian army deadline will
:01:06. > :01:11.have expired before this time tomorrow night. If there is no sign
:01:11. > :01:16.of settlement between the two sides the state news agency claim tonight
:01:16. > :01:20.that the army plans to suspend the constitution, dissolve the
:01:20. > :01:26.legislature and impose a caretaker Government. The Muslim Brotherhood
:01:26. > :01:33.figures are talking of a coup. Let's go first tonight to Jeremy
:01:33. > :01:36.Bowen who is in Cairo. Now Jeremy, there is talk tonight of talks
:01:36. > :01:41.between President Morsi and the head of the army, have you heard
:01:41. > :01:45.anything about that? Yeah, there have been reports that these talks
:01:45. > :01:50.are going on throughout the day. It is clear there have been
:01:50. > :01:53.negotiations happening. There have been some clues coming out as to
:01:53. > :01:59.President Morsi's attitude. He put out some announcements on Twitter
:01:59. > :02:03.in the last hour or so in which he called upon the military to
:02:04. > :02:07.withdrew its ultimatum and he said that they would not be dictated to
:02:07. > :02:13.by internal or external forces. And in the last few minutes there has
:02:13. > :02:18.been a flash that says he's preparing to address the nation. My
:02:18. > :02:22.guess is that in that speech there will be more defiance, there were
:02:22. > :02:26.very big demonstrations, not just in Cairo, but other parts of the
:02:26. > :02:30.country as well, by the Muslim Brotherhood today. A real show of
:02:30. > :02:35.strength. I have to say things on the streets are deteriorating.
:02:35. > :02:39.There are quite a few reports of clashes going on in Cairo and other
:02:39. > :02:42.places. At a rally I was at earlier outside Cairo University, since I
:02:42. > :02:47.left there are reports that four or five people have been killed there
:02:47. > :02:50.in clashes which are still going on between the two sides. This is a
:02:50. > :02:53.really dangerous and urgent situation now. I know this is a
:02:53. > :03:01.very difficult question to answer, but does it feel as if the
:03:01. > :03:04.Government is on the edge of collapse? Well, if you look at
:03:04. > :03:09.what's happening around, politically, around President Morsi,
:03:09. > :03:12.he has lost through resignations at least six ministers and there are
:03:12. > :03:19.rumours and reports that more of those could be going before the
:03:19. > :03:26.army deadline comes in tomorrow. He's even lost two or three of his
:03:26. > :03:29.most important spokesmen. So, you know, that's a sign. But, on the
:03:29. > :03:33.streets, if you think about the Muslim Brotherhood in Government
:03:33. > :03:36.quite frankly at times they have been not just inexperienced but
:03:36. > :03:40.pretty incompetent, but they have been going since 1928 working
:03:40. > :03:44.towards the power they have got now, they will not give it up lightly.
:03:44. > :03:49.On the streets they are tenacious and well organised as a group. They
:03:49. > :03:53.are able to put people out on the streets. So while he seems to be
:03:53. > :03:56.losing support in his own cabinet, actually on the streets he has a
:03:56. > :04:00.lot of true believers behind him. That is the Muslim Brotherhood's
:04:00. > :04:07.real strength and that is something that he's trying to plaijer at the
:04:07. > :04:14.moment and show to the army as well, they can't dismiss them lightly.
:04:14. > :04:17.sounds a very dangerous situation? It is feeling like a collision
:04:17. > :04:21.course at the moment. Feelings are running high. Pressure has been
:04:21. > :04:27.building up in call kinds of directions in this country since
:04:28. > :04:32.the fall of President Mubarak. There has been economic collapse,
:04:32. > :04:36.political chaos, repeated clashes, repeated mass demonstrations. And
:04:36. > :04:41.now down below me there are tens of thousands of people demonstrating
:04:41. > :04:44.yet again and the streets around the square are full as well, that
:04:44. > :04:48.they want Morsi out. They are determined, they say, everyone I
:04:48. > :04:52.have spoken to says it, to stay there until he goes, and there are
:04:52. > :04:56.early elections. On the other hand there is Morsi saying, do not
:04:56. > :05:01.trifle with us, we're the Muslim Brotherhood, we don't want violence,
:05:01. > :05:06.but we don't want ultimatums either. There is a massive gulf between the
:05:06. > :05:10.two sides, here is the army saying they will step in. I don't see any
:05:10. > :05:19.circumstances in which the army are going to withdraw their ultimatum.
:05:19. > :05:21.So it will be a tense 24-hours and a dangerous 24-hours too I think.
:05:21. > :05:26.Now Egypt may have a collapsing state and faltering economy, but
:05:27. > :05:34.there are no shortage of other countries with a keen interest in
:05:34. > :05:39.its future. Our diplomatic editor, reports.
:05:39. > :05:44.The military ultimatum has stoked Cairo's cauldron of protest rather
:05:44. > :05:48.than quietening it. After one year in power President Mohamed Morsi's
:05:48. > :05:57.Government is tottering. His opponents sense they may soon be
:05:57. > :06:02.able to deliver the knock-out blow. The first step towards finding a
:06:02. > :06:09.solution should be the resignation of Mohamed Morsi as President,
:06:09. > :06:13.bowing to overwhelming desire of the majority of Egyptians. It is
:06:13. > :06:19.the National Salvation Front's belief that Egypt should go through
:06:19. > :06:24.a transitional period during which the constitution will be reviewed,
:06:24. > :06:34.presidential elections held and the democratisation process put on the
:06:34. > :06:34.
:06:34. > :10:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 264 seconds
:10:58. > :11:01.These forces are on a collision course.
:11:01. > :11:06.Just in the last few minutes President Morsi has said he won't
:11:06. > :11:14.step down, he is the democratically elected President. A few moments
:11:15. > :11:18.ago I spoke to Chris Hadfield of the Muslim Brotherhood in -- I
:11:18. > :11:23.spoke to a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Is President Morsi
:11:23. > :11:26.prepared to make any concessions to the protestors? I think the
:11:26. > :11:29.President is prepared to do all necessary to pass this crisis. The
:11:29. > :11:34.question is not what type of concessions to make, the question
:11:34. > :11:37.is how to make these concessions. There are one or two ways to do
:11:37. > :11:40.that, either representatives of the opposition appear on the
:11:40. > :11:44.presidential dialogue table, or at least they invite the President to
:11:44. > :11:47.a dialogue table. He announced that last week. Or we go through a
:11:47. > :11:51.parliamentary elections and then, according to the numbers that have
:11:51. > :11:54.showed up on the streets, think they have a good chance of winning
:11:54. > :11:57.the elections, changing the constitution, even impeaching the
:11:57. > :12:06.President if they so wish. It has to be through democratic means and
:12:06. > :12:13.not under a military coup. Do you think that there can be dialogue
:12:13. > :12:18.before the military deadline expires tomorrow? I don't think the
:12:18. > :12:21.military deadline means that much more us. I think at the end of the
:12:21. > :12:26.day Egyptians have taken a decision to go through this transition
:12:26. > :12:30.through democratic means, democracy as a system is the pinnacle of how
:12:30. > :12:32.human beings solve their differences in a political
:12:32. > :12:37.governance platform. There is no better system or alternative to
:12:37. > :12:41.that system. Unless we accept that we can plunge Egypt into another
:12:41. > :12:45.cycle of military dictatorship that we will not come out of for another
:12:45. > :12:49.60 years. Egyptians broke that in the January 25th revolution, we are
:12:49. > :12:52.under no circumstances willing to go through that again. Supposing
:12:52. > :12:58.the military decide that you have not met their deadline and
:12:58. > :13:04.therefore to save the country they must do something. That would be up
:13:04. > :13:07.to them. They can either stick with their role, to protect the
:13:07. > :13:11.legitimacy of the state and the sovereign leader of the state and
:13:11. > :13:15.work within his leadership grounds, he's the Commander-in-Chief of the
:13:15. > :13:18.Armed Forces, if they do not the people of Egypt have stood once
:13:18. > :13:22.before inside the Jan 25th revolution to anyone attempting to
:13:22. > :13:27.withdraw their will and their right to choose their leaders from then
:13:27. > :13:32.as before. Has the President spoken to the
:13:32. > :13:35.head of the army? Yes I believe they have spoken today and
:13:35. > :13:38.yesterday. They have actually published some photos of them
:13:39. > :13:44.meeting together, but I'm not aware of the context of the discussions.
:13:44. > :13:48.Are you confident that President Morsi will still be in the
:13:48. > :13:52.Presidential Palace tomorrow night? I think the idea of being in the
:13:52. > :13:56.Presidential Palace to become a President is quite absurd. The
:13:56. > :14:00.legitimacy does not come from the building but from the grass roots
:14:00. > :14:06.support and from the ballot box. This President has voted in by 51%
:14:06. > :14:09.of the population. You don't stop a presidency mid-term because the
:14:09. > :14:12.President's favouritism dropped. I don't think any democracies in
:14:12. > :14:15.Europe can risk changing the Governments or Presidents for bad
:14:15. > :14:20.performance of their Government. Half the European countries have
:14:20. > :14:27.already had economic problems on their hands. What have the
:14:27. > :14:31.Americans asked President Morsi to do? I'm not aware except of the
:14:31. > :14:34.published at the same time both of the ambassador here and President
:14:34. > :14:38.Obama. Both statements indicate they are not taking part in
:14:38. > :14:41.political strive, but backing the - - strive, but backing the
:14:41. > :14:45.democratic process. That is a smart choice, this is how we commit
:14:45. > :14:49.ourselves to creating a sustainable democracy in Egypt. It is in its
:14:49. > :14:54.first year, in its infancy, it needs to be protected through that
:14:54. > :14:58.process. It is quite clear the state is ungovernable now? Sorry?
:14:58. > :15:01.It is suffering from many issues, this is 60 years of military
:15:01. > :15:04.dictatorship, 30 years of corruption. When we pud our
:15:04. > :15:07.presidential programme in place, when we -- put our presidential
:15:07. > :15:11.programme in place and promoted President Morsi as our candidate,
:15:11. > :15:14.his first phase of programme of reform was four-to-five years, the
:15:14. > :15:19.firefighting stage, where we have to deal with all the her particular
:15:19. > :15:22.of the NDP and corrupt Mubarak regime, we are still going through
:15:22. > :15:26.that. Thank you very much for sparing the
:15:26. > :15:31.time to talk to us in rather difficult circumstances thank you.
:15:31. > :15:36.Thank you. So what will the Obama
:15:36. > :15:41.administration do now? In Washington is the former Assistant
:15:41. > :15:47.Secretary of State PJ Crowley, do you think President Obama knows
:15:47. > :15:51.what he wants out of this crisis? know what he wants, which is to see
:15:51. > :15:55.democracy develop and advance, but ultimately the key decisions we
:15:55. > :16:00.made inside Egypt and not from outside Egypt. He wants President
:16:00. > :16:06.Morsi to stay? I think he want whatever is going to happen to move
:16:06. > :16:12.Egypt forward and deep in democracy not to take it off the democratic
:16:12. > :16:15.rails, if you will. Obviously there are some profound questions here.
:16:15. > :16:22.This situation, as you hint, is unsustainable. Now how does it
:16:22. > :16:27.change, how does it end. Will Morsi reach beyond the Muslim Brotherhood
:16:27. > :16:31.and have a meaningful dialogue with the opposition? Indications are not
:16:31. > :16:34.necessarily. The opposition, over the last year or two, has been
:16:34. > :16:39.relatively ineffective, has not necessarily been able to translate
:16:39. > :16:44.the energy that we see in the dramatic pictures in Egypt, into
:16:44. > :16:48.real political influence. A is whether the military ultimatum is
:16:48. > :16:52.firm or flexible. The real dilemma is that whatever these actors may
:16:52. > :16:58.or may not do in the coming hours or days, is any of that going to be
:16:58. > :17:03.acceptable to the people in the streets? But he's a democratically
:17:03. > :17:07.elected President? He is. And that's a dilemma because he's right
:17:07. > :17:10.now the only democratic pillar that exists, whether he's governing
:17:10. > :17:15.effectively or ineffectively is a separate discussion. One of the
:17:15. > :17:21.dilemmas is that you don't have a seated legitimate parliament, the
:17:21. > :17:27.constitutional court has prevented both houses from being seeded and
:17:27. > :17:31.the votes respected. There is an interim Upper House in place. But
:17:31. > :17:37.the constitutional court has not necessarily allowed the development
:17:37. > :17:41.of multiple institutions of political life. So that's a dilemma,
:17:41. > :17:44.all of the things that we are talking about take time and
:17:44. > :17:48.obviously the people in the streets are demanding just one thing, Morsi
:17:48. > :17:53.has to go. You are plugged in enough to have a
:17:53. > :17:58.guess, a good guess at the answer to this question, which is should
:17:58. > :18:01.the Egyptian army decide to intervene tomorrow that the current
:18:01. > :18:06.situation is so unstable they have to intervene, they have perhaps to
:18:06. > :18:11.put President Morsi, if not to depose him, to put him to one side
:18:11. > :18:15.temporarily, would the United States support that? It is a real
:18:15. > :18:19.difficult question. I think the United States has two levers, one
:18:19. > :18:23.is depending on what happens, and what the military role is, the
:18:23. > :18:27.United States has the option of declaring it a military coup, which
:18:28. > :18:33.would mean the suspension of billions of colours in military
:18:33. > :18:40.assistance. Depending on how it unfolds, how quickly there is a
:18:40. > :18:46.transitional Government put in place and firm pledges to early
:18:46. > :18:51.elections. The United States might forestall such a firm judgment to
:18:51. > :18:54.give Egypt time to chart a path back to democracy. The other lever
:18:54. > :18:57.the United States has with the international community, as your
:18:57. > :19:01.reporting suggested, Egypt is in desperate need of international
:19:01. > :19:06.assistance. Obviously the longer this goes on, the more difficult it
:19:06. > :19:09.is going to be for the World Bank, the IMF, other countries, to put
:19:10. > :19:13.money into Egypt and so that would suggest to the political actors
:19:13. > :19:17.here, you don't have a lot of options, you have to find a way to
:19:17. > :19:24.solve this, meet the needs of the people. Otherwise your economy is
:19:24. > :19:30.going to collapse. PJCrowley thank you for sparing the time to talk to
:19:30. > :19:35.Talk about undignified, as the most famous human rights hero lies in
:19:35. > :19:40.hospital, his family war over where he will be buried. The vast pack of
:19:40. > :19:45.what some of his closest call "jackels" has fallen on a family
:19:45. > :19:53.dispute of Gothic dimensions, it involves burial, disinternment,
:19:53. > :19:57.reburial, tribal custom, reputation and money. Now the police. In to
:19:57. > :20:01.court in haste today, lawyers for both sides in a feud that could
:20:01. > :20:05.hardly be a greater contrast to what President Obama called this
:20:05. > :20:14.weekend when he was in South Africa "the current outpouring of love for
:20:14. > :20:22.Nelson Mandela". The urgency for resolving an embarrassing family
:20:22. > :20:25.dispute over Mandela's graves, Nelson Mandela's own illness. The
:20:25. > :20:29.man who became arguably the most famous and revered statesman of our
:20:29. > :20:33.age was brought up here in the sweeping landscape of the Eastern
:20:33. > :20:38.Cape. This is Kunu, the village that welcomed him home until he had
:20:38. > :20:44.to be flown up to hospital in Pretoria last year. He has not been
:20:44. > :20:52.back. But has indicated when he dies he wants to be buried here.
:20:52. > :20:58.Other Madela have this -- Madelas have this as their resting place.
:20:58. > :21:02.But in 2011 Nelson Mandela's grandson and oldest heir, Mandla is
:21:02. > :21:08.thought to have taken the remains of two of Nelson Mandela's sons and
:21:08. > :21:13.one daughter from Kuno to the nearby village of Mvezo without the
:21:13. > :21:20.family's consent. Mandla Mandela holds the traditional chiefdom of
:21:20. > :21:24.Mvezo, it was Nelson Mandela's birth place, and Mandla is creating
:21:24. > :21:28.a centre. But the acrimony within the family over his actions that
:21:28. > :21:34.has led to this civil ways in the court. The respondant failing to
:21:34. > :21:38.return the remains. First 16 family members won an order that the
:21:38. > :21:46.remains should be returned to Kunu, now Mandla Mandela is fighting back.
:21:46. > :21:50.But the deadline for him to exhume the remains and rebury them in Kunu
:21:50. > :21:55.is tomorrow afternoon. The court case here over the remains of the
:21:55. > :21:58.three late children of Nelson Mandela is symptomatic of deeper,
:21:58. > :22:04.long-running divisions in the former President's family. In the
:22:04. > :22:09.eyes of the ANC in and traditional region here, the feud something is
:22:09. > :22:12.all the more distasteful and critical as he's ill. There is a
:22:12. > :22:17.global spotlight on South Africa and the Madela. Some elders say
:22:17. > :22:26.while the family is at war the spirit of Nelson Mandela cannot be
:22:26. > :22:30.at rest. It was totally wrong for Mandla Mandela to remove bones from
:22:30. > :22:36.Kunu to Mvezo. According to our culture and tradition, you cannot
:22:36. > :22:39.just take a decision. And tonight a further problem for Mandla Mandela.
:22:39. > :22:44.The police are investigating a complaint against him by a family
:22:44. > :22:50.member of the illegal tampering of graves.
:22:50. > :22:58.The case that has opened is tamperering with a grave against
:22:58. > :23:01.Mandla. After the document was opened we have started with
:23:01. > :23:09.investigation, but the docket will be send to the senior public
:23:09. > :23:15.prosecutor for a decision. Across South Africa there are have been
:23:15. > :23:20.prayers for Nelson Mandela. The nation seems, at the moment, to be
:23:20. > :23:25.moving to the haunting harmonies of its evocative music.
:23:25. > :23:33.Many will no doubt be praying too for an end to the rifts in South
:23:33. > :23:40.Africa's most famous family. In the studio is David James Smith,
:23:40. > :23:46.who wrote the book Young Madela. He has interviewed many of Mr Madela's
:23:46. > :23:50.relatives, we have Belinda Moses, a South African reporter in the
:23:50. > :23:55.middle of the media circus there. Is this stress and imminent
:23:55. > :23:59.bereavement bringing out the worst in the family or what? I think it
:23:59. > :24:03.is a disaster waiting to happen. It would be niave to pretend for
:24:03. > :24:08.anyone that they didn't know it was coming. Just to take the example of
:24:08. > :24:13.the graves being removed. Mandla removed them with quite a lot of
:24:13. > :24:16.publicity two years ago in May 2011. The family has had plenty of time
:24:16. > :24:20.to address the problem. I think the difficulty is that the family
:24:21. > :24:29.problems are so deep-rooted that no-one really knows what to, how to
:24:29. > :24:32.deal with them or what to do about them. Grassa Michelle has made some
:24:32. > :24:38.attempt to resolve difficulties within the families: I'm aware of
:24:38. > :24:41.meetings that have ended in disarray and she hasn't been
:24:41. > :24:46.success of. She's the third wife trying to patch up relations
:24:46. > :24:51.between the first and second wife's offspring. You have a first family,
:24:51. > :24:56.Madela's wife, Evelyn, and a second family which was winny and her two
:24:57. > :25:01.daughters. Bell lind --Winnie and her two daughters. How charged an
:25:01. > :25:05.issue is that out there? Of course for South Africans this is a pretty
:25:05. > :25:09.ugly side show from what is a very sensitive to imin South Africa,
:25:09. > :25:13.knowing that Nelson Mandela has been -- time in South African
:25:13. > :25:16.knowing that Nelson Mandela has been gravely ill over the last few
:25:16. > :25:19.days, South Africans are anxious to hear about his health condition,
:25:19. > :25:22.and the family feud on the sidelines is something that is
:25:23. > :25:27.pretty regretable as you mentioned and something that shouldn't be
:25:27. > :25:31.happening at this time. This is a story that is two years old. The
:25:31. > :25:36.timing of course is very questionable. And I think different
:25:36. > :25:41.families members -- family members have come out saying different
:25:41. > :25:45.things. All in all South Africans are pretty upset that this is
:25:45. > :25:48.happening when they are so worried about Nelson Mandela and whether he
:25:48. > :25:52.will be discharged from hospital any time soon. How much do you
:25:52. > :25:57.think the presence of this enormous international media has aggravated
:25:57. > :26:03.things? I can tell you that I have covered the story from day one, and
:26:03. > :26:07.we saw a massive increase of the types of media that came camped out
:26:07. > :26:11.outside the hospital. It has caused a bit of tension, not only among
:26:11. > :26:14.South Africans that have been in the vicinity of the hospital, but
:26:14. > :26:18.just South Africans in general who have essentially been praying for
:26:18. > :26:21.Nelson Mandela for the past 20-odd days. We have seen actual scrambles
:26:21. > :26:26.between the media and the police. We have seen members of the public
:26:26. > :26:29.that have taken the media to task on just how close they seem to be
:26:29. > :26:36.getting to the entrance of the hospital, and we have generally
:26:36. > :26:41.seen a lot of people write into local pub daigss -- publications
:26:41. > :26:47.and call into local radio stations and say the family does indeed need
:26:47. > :26:50.the privacy and to visit their grandfather in peace, and have the
:26:51. > :26:54.space they need so desperately at this time. Even though everybody
:26:54. > :26:59.does see Nelson Mandela as a family member, they too want to have the
:26:59. > :27:03.space to make sure that you know they are not overcompensating for
:27:03. > :27:10.any type of closeness from the media and the media isn't barging
:27:10. > :27:16.in where they aren't supposed to be. What this does shed a light upon,
:27:16. > :27:21.undignified though the family row may be, that Nelson Mandela as well
:27:21. > :27:25.as a an international icon is a fallible human being? He was a
:27:25. > :27:33.father and a husband. Several times? Yes. And not necessarily
:27:33. > :27:37.always very good at those roles. While the world is considering what
:27:37. > :27:41.Nelson Mandela's legacy is, part of that legacy is the difficulties
:27:41. > :27:45.within his family. Many of his family have felt in the past some
:27:45. > :27:49.resentment towards him because of the difficulties. Mandla, who is
:27:49. > :27:58.alleged to have perpetrated this removal of the bodies, what's the
:27:58. > :28:04.point of that? The point is that he feels this is part of Madela's
:28:04. > :28:08.heritage, this place Mvezo. So Mandla's own father was the head
:28:08. > :28:13.man in that village 100 years ago. I was deposed and part of the
:28:13. > :28:19.family myth was he was sent backing by the colonial magistrates, so
:28:19. > :28:25.Madela oversaw Mandla's installation as the chief of the
:28:25. > :28:28.village. So he has the indorsment of Nelson Mandela himself.
:28:28. > :28:31.Enforcement of Nelson Mandela himself. How much of a feeling do
:28:31. > :28:36.you get that this is part of the Madela's industry? There is always
:28:36. > :28:39.issues of money over Madela. We have seen people over the past few
:28:39. > :28:44.years people fighting over paintings of Madela, over what
:28:44. > :28:47.should be his legacy in terms of the heritage sites and museums that
:28:47. > :28:51.will exist long after he has left this world. Of course with the
:28:51. > :28:55.family it has been pretty clear that there are serious division
:28:55. > :28:58.amongst them. Especially as to who get to carry on this legacy of
:28:58. > :29:04.Nelson Mandela. We know that the Nelson Mandela Foundation has done
:29:04. > :29:14.a lot of work to help children and all around the country and push
:29:14. > :29:16.
:29:16. > :29:21.this issue of education that Nelson Mandela fought for so many years.
:29:21. > :29:25.But there is the issue of money and who gets the rights to the name,
:29:25. > :29:29."Nelson Mandela". Wales is to become the first part of the UK to
:29:29. > :29:33.assume that if you die the state will have the right to take out
:29:33. > :29:37.your heart or liver or other vital organs to use them to help someone
:29:38. > :29:42.else. It is a change in the law that's been longed for by the huge
:29:42. > :29:49.number of people across the kingdom, waiting for a transplant that could
:29:49. > :29:53.transform their lives and which hitherto has depended upon possible
:29:53. > :29:57.donors saying because they have no use to them somebody else might
:29:57. > :30:02.benefit. The Welsh Assembly voted an hour ago for a law in Wales that
:30:02. > :30:06.means you have to opt-out of being a donor, instead of opting-in.
:30:06. > :30:10.It was the transplantation of the human heart, unpoetic pump though
:30:10. > :30:15.it may be, which captured the imagination of the world. And
:30:15. > :30:21.compelled us all to think about the rights and wrongs of the new
:30:21. > :30:25.techniques. In the late 1960s the world was reeling from from the
:30:25. > :30:30.first-ever heart transplant in 1967. To this day we are still grappling
:30:30. > :30:34.with the profound issues of life and death raised by organ donation.
:30:34. > :30:38.That does bring tonight's business to a close, thank you very much.
:30:38. > :30:42.The Welsh vote late tonight makes it the only country in the UK with
:30:42. > :30:47.a system that presumes consent, unless otherwise stated. Many still
:30:47. > :30:51.object. Among them religious groups. They call it deemed consent, it is
:30:51. > :30:58.no kind of consent at all it seems to me. It is rather the taking of
:30:58. > :31:01.organs rather than the gifting of organs. Matthew Fenton is a
:31:01. > :31:05.paediatric cardiologist, he welcomes the Welsh move. We need to
:31:05. > :31:09.come down one way or another in the UK about how we can solve the
:31:09. > :31:12.problem of organ donation. We are not as good as other countries.
:31:12. > :31:16.We're somewhere near the bottom third of donations per million of
:31:16. > :31:20.the population, we need to improve that. It is down to the public to
:31:20. > :31:24.buy into being a country that is in favour of organ donation or not.
:31:24. > :31:29.There has been a steady rise in the number of registered donors in the
:31:29. > :31:35.UK, which now stands at almost 20 million. With just over 3,000
:31:35. > :31:39.transplants from donors who have died in 2012 to 2013. These include
:31:39. > :31:43.transplants of the lungs, heart and kidneys, all of which have
:31:43. > :31:48.increased in the past five years. However, the number of donations is
:31:48. > :31:51.still below what's needed, in March this year there were well over
:31:51. > :31:58.7,000 people on the transplant waiting list, a number that stayed
:31:58. > :32:04.about the same in those five years. With donor numbers going up, why
:32:04. > :32:10.are we still in such desperate need of more? One of the key findings
:32:10. > :32:15.from the confidential audit of deaths in intensive care units in
:32:15. > :32:22.1989/90 was that 30% of families refused consent for organ donations,
:32:22. > :32:29.so that a major barrier was relatives' refusal. Since that time,
:32:29. > :32:34.in the ensuing two decades the refusal rate has actually increased
:32:34. > :32:38.so that now we face a refusal rate of about 40%.
:32:38. > :32:41.Ministers in Northern Ireland plan to consult on public attitudes to
:32:41. > :32:45.organ donation and in Scotland ministers have said presumed
:32:45. > :32:49.consent is not completely off the agenda.
:32:49. > :32:53.In England there has been a 50% increase in the number of people
:32:53. > :32:57.donating organs after death in the past five years. Which means that
:32:57. > :33:01.NHS blood and transplant service have hit their targets. Though that
:33:01. > :33:05.is not enough, of course, and we understand that next week they will
:33:05. > :33:08.issue their strategy for the next five years to improve on that.
:33:09. > :33:14.Though there is little expectation of a radical change in direction,
:33:14. > :33:24.such as presumed consent. A recent NHS survey gained a
:33:24. > :33:41.
:33:41. > :33:45.snapshot of how people view organ Some medics argue that the best way
:33:45. > :33:52.to enkoirage more donors is to make harder for all -- encourage more
:33:52. > :33:55.donors is to make it harder for us to opt out. Sitting and registering
:33:55. > :33:57.to be a donor is not something people do. It is a question of
:33:57. > :34:02.turning to your relatives or everybody having a time where they
:34:02. > :34:05.say we will talk about this and we are going to make sure you know
:34:05. > :34:10.what my wishes are if something happen. Nobody expects the worse to
:34:10. > :34:13.happen to them. The developing techniques of organ transplantation
:34:13. > :34:18.raise urgent issues which society must face. We have to make up our
:34:18. > :34:23.minds whether to encourage more transplants or not. Now, just as 50
:34:23. > :34:29.years ago, it seems we are reluctant to talk about the end of
:34:29. > :34:37.life, and its many dilemmas. With us is Dr Tony Calland chairman of
:34:38. > :34:43.the British Medical Association's Medical Ethics Committee, and the
:34:43. > :34:47.person who previously worked on the task force for organ donation and
:34:47. > :34:52.faith leaders. Is this change in Wales likely to improve the number
:34:52. > :34:56.of donors? I'm afraid the evidence is very mixed. We should not
:34:56. > :35:01.dismiss the huge achievement in the past five years. 50% increase in
:35:01. > :35:07.donors is remarkable. That has been achieved by improving donor
:35:07. > :35:10.recognition in hospitals and delivering training. When you look
:35:10. > :35:15.at other countries who have introduced opting out, they have
:35:15. > :35:20.not seen a reduction in refusal rates, we have to be careful.
:35:20. > :35:25.is a lot of double negatives there, let me work this out. If other
:35:25. > :35:29.countries that have said you are presumed to be willing to give have
:35:29. > :35:34.seen people objecting to that, is that what you are saying? Some
:35:34. > :35:38.countries have. Where as in some countries the refusal rate has
:35:38. > :35:42.reduced, so the evidence is mixed. What is really clear is public
:35:42. > :35:47.education does have an effect, and I think it is welcome that Wales
:35:47. > :35:52.are going to invest in a public education scheme when they
:35:52. > :35:56.introduce this legislation. Do you have an site from an ethical point
:35:56. > :36:01.of view about the notion that the state some how owns your body?
:36:01. > :36:07.think the first thing to say is the state will not own your body. I
:36:07. > :36:11.don't have a problem with the ethics of it, because this is about
:36:11. > :36:16.autonomy, this is about carrying out the wishes of an individual
:36:16. > :36:21.after they have died. And there is a safeguard that they can either go
:36:21. > :36:25.on the organ donor register, they can opt in or they can opt-out.
:36:25. > :36:33.There is a safeguard of having their relatives, who will be asked,
:36:33. > :36:38.if they know of any recent change in the view of the person who is
:36:39. > :36:43.deceased. If they know there is a reason why they should have not
:36:43. > :36:50.consented. But if the presumption is that you have opted in, in other
:36:50. > :36:55.words that the state may take organs from your dead bodyk can --
:36:55. > :37:01.body. Can the family say they don't want that? The legislation in Wales
:37:01. > :37:06.is actually permissive, it is not directive. So in the face...Can
:37:06. > :37:10.family stop it happening? In the face of a huge family objection,
:37:10. > :37:15.even though now. Who judges how huge?. It is a clinical judgment,
:37:15. > :37:19.it is a judgment done by the highly experience transplant team at the
:37:19. > :37:25.time. But that occurs in the current system in England at the
:37:25. > :37:31.moment. Obviously in the face of a deeply traumatised and very upset
:37:31. > :37:35.family who are seriously against it, nobody is going to go and take
:37:35. > :37:42.organs against their wishes under those circumstances. It was
:37:42. > :37:51.striking in that piece from Susan Watts is relatives objects even
:37:51. > :37:55.from those who opted to give their organ, the number of people
:37:55. > :37:58.refusing has risen, why is that? This is why we need the investment
:37:58. > :38:02.in public education. There hasn't been the investment previously and
:38:02. > :38:08.we have seen a constant refusal rate for the last five years of 40%.
:38:08. > :38:15.And more worryingly in non-white families that refusal rate is 70%
:38:15. > :38:21.and it is welcome that Wales are going to invest �8 million. Why do
:38:21. > :38:26.they feel more strongly about it? Because of pure lack of engagment
:38:26. > :38:31.with these communities on donation. Why are the organs of use to anyone
:38:31. > :38:34.else? All the research shows that people have common fears not ethnic
:38:34. > :38:38.or Asianly specific. They are around fear of death and what will
:38:38. > :38:43.happen to the body, mistrust of medical professions. We have to
:38:43. > :38:48.recognise that some communities don't enjoy equal access and equal
:38:48. > :38:52.kality of care. That does -- quality of care. That does manifest
:38:52. > :38:57.itself in organ dough iing that. It is important to equally engage with
:38:57. > :39:02.all the communities, via faith and community groups. What is the less
:39:02. > :39:08.I don't know we learn from the Welsh experience? The Welsh
:39:08. > :39:11.experience will hopefully give us information about whether this way
:39:11. > :39:14.of doing things increases the number of organs available. We have
:39:14. > :39:21.seen because of the increased infrastructure and staff, we have
:39:21. > :39:25.seen in an increase in donations both in England and Wales. But I
:39:25. > :39:30.think a move to the Welsh system now will sort of settle the
:39:30. > :39:34.argument, if you like, once and for all. It is a fairly controllable
:39:34. > :39:37.smallish population and a better sort of way of doing it than
:39:37. > :39:40.suddenly the whole UK with 60-odd million people involved. It is
:39:40. > :39:44.better with three million to see what difference it makes and
:39:44. > :39:47.hopefully it are. Thank you.
:39:47. > :39:51.British parents are notorious the world over for loving their
:39:51. > :39:55.children so much that if they can afford to do so they send them to
:39:55. > :40:00.live somewhere else as soon as possible. The boarding school
:40:00. > :40:05.system is however celebrated for achieving results, although at eye-
:40:05. > :40:09.watering cost, maybe �30,000 per year per child. There is a way of
:40:09. > :40:13.getting a boarding school place for a fraction of the cost. Not a young
:40:13. > :40:16.offenders institution! But one of the 38 state boarding schools. They
:40:16. > :40:26.have become rather fashionable and the Government wants to see more of
:40:26. > :40:32.
:40:32. > :40:34.them. So can they be expanded? The afternoons at Winmar college are
:40:34. > :40:42.action-packed. It is the largest state boarding school in the
:40:42. > :40:47.country. At the school barbecue children
:40:48. > :40:52.told us they are having too much fun to get home sick. Do you not
:40:52. > :40:58.miss your family? Not really. Sometimes, I did at the start of
:40:58. > :41:02.the year, but I don't any more. What about your sister? I missed
:41:02. > :41:07.her when I first joined now I have realised how annoying she is.
:41:07. > :41:11.old is she? Three.How is she annoying? She irritates me and
:41:11. > :41:15.ruins my room and my guitar. There is nothing new about this
:41:15. > :41:18.Government's enthusiasm for state boarding schools, the last five
:41:18. > :41:22.education secretaries promised to expand them, yet there are still
:41:22. > :41:26.only 38 of them. If they really want to open them up to
:41:26. > :41:34.disadvantaged pupils they are going to need to work out who is going to
:41:34. > :41:38.pick up the �9,000 boarding fee. There are 5,000 state borders in
:41:38. > :41:44.total. 130 places are paid for by local Government, while charities
:41:44. > :41:53.pay for 100 pupils. So, fewer than 5% of state borders come from
:41:53. > :42:00.disadvantaged backgrounds. -- Boarders come from disadvantaged
:42:00. > :42:04.backgrounds. None of the this school's boarders are paid for a
:42:04. > :42:08.local authority, and four are supported by a charity. There isn't
:42:08. > :42:13.a straight forward way through the door for children who can't afford
:42:13. > :42:16.�9,500. That is not for want of our trying. The issue is, is there a
:42:16. > :42:21.Government bold enough and brave enough to say not only that we are
:42:21. > :42:24.going to rule the ends to this but the means also. We really mean it
:42:24. > :42:28.this time, this Secretary of State unlike the previous four I have
:42:28. > :42:32.known in my career will have the bottle to do it. You sound a bit
:42:32. > :42:42.fed up? I may give that impression. This building is fantastic. Do you
:42:42. > :42:43.
:42:43. > :42:47.like living here? Yeah.Lauren calls the boarding house at
:42:47. > :42:50.Harrefield academy home. What do you like most of being here? I love
:42:50. > :42:55.being part of a family and the togetherness, and there is so many
:42:55. > :43:00.different people here. Lauren found studying at home
:43:00. > :43:04.difficult. She was brought up by a single mother who works nights as a
:43:04. > :43:12.nurse. Lauren wanted to board, so the school found a benefactor to
:43:12. > :43:15.pay her fees. It did lift a lot of pressure. I became more active and
:43:15. > :43:20.confident in my work. If I struggled with something I didn't
:43:20. > :43:24.have to keep it in, because I didn't want to force it upon my mum
:43:24. > :43:28.when she came back from work because she was tired. So I would
:43:28. > :43:33.let someone else know, I would tell the house parent, you would go into
:43:33. > :43:40.school and talk to my teacher. you think being here has given you
:43:40. > :43:44.your childhood back? Yeah. I think so. If Lauren needs support she can
:43:44. > :43:51.turn to one of the school's called house parents. I just wanted to
:43:51. > :43:56.check up on you today. The academy prides itself on its pastoral care.
:43:56. > :44:03.It would like to give more places to vulnerable children, including
:44:03. > :44:06.those in care. We have got only one young person funded by a local
:44:06. > :44:11.authority, and we think that's interesting or, we are disappointed
:44:11. > :44:14.by that. Because we think it could be so easy to prevent a young
:44:14. > :44:19.person's life going in the wrong direction, just by allowing them to
:44:19. > :44:23.board with us. I think someone at some time needs to sit back and do
:44:23. > :44:26.a cost analysis to see how much money is going into the system
:44:26. > :44:30.either through social services or to provide emergency care and if we
:44:30. > :44:36.could find the capacity to turn that money into places from the
:44:36. > :44:41.start, then you know it seems like a no-brainer to me really.
:44:41. > :44:51.According to the education charity Buttle UK, boarding helps
:44:51. > :45:04.
:45:04. > :45:09.They are doing better pupils on free school meals.? -- in Royal
:45:09. > :45:14.Berkshire they are preparing found for a new state boarding school.00
:45:14. > :45:17.families have put their children down for a place, even the unborn
:45:17. > :45:22.ones. The reason for the stampede, the school is being supported by
:45:22. > :45:27.nearby Eton. That is helping to write the
:45:27. > :45:32.curriculum and providing access to its playing field. So, the Eton
:45:32. > :45:41.ethos without the Princely price tag. But why should only families
:45:41. > :45:45.in Berkshire benefit? Why not open this school up in a deprived area.
:45:45. > :45:50.Why not tap into an area that never thought Eton could be within its
:45:50. > :45:53.reach? There are any dangers in focusing any school on any
:45:53. > :45:56.demographic or type of background. The great joy of boarding, the
:45:56. > :45:59.strength, is when you have a mixture of different types of
:45:59. > :46:07.people from different backgrounds who perceive the world in different
:46:07. > :46:12.ways. I would love to see a network of schools, many Holyports that
:46:12. > :46:17.would allow students and families to access boarding in their region.
:46:17. > :46:21.It would be good for them and the country too I believe. The founders
:46:21. > :46:28.have a vision for their new school. They want 20% of pupils to come
:46:28. > :46:33.from low income backgrounds. But, as the more established state
:46:33. > :46:36.boarding schools have discovered, achieving the mixed intake is hard.
:46:36. > :46:41.Is the frustration that we could have new schools opening up in the
:46:41. > :46:47.state boarding sector that really turn out to be cut-price Etons or
:46:47. > :46:51.we willingen tos? That is the worry -- or Wellingtons? That is the
:46:51. > :46:55.worry. People have to look at the profile of these young people. It
:46:55. > :46:58.is hard to get the right groups in, they have stood by a moral purpose
:46:58. > :47:02.and are determined to do it. But I think there needs to be a
:47:02. > :47:12.determined effort by all involved to make sure that those new
:47:12. > :47:14.
:47:14. > :47:18.academies with boarding are used for the right student.
:47:18. > :47:28.All the schools we have spoken to admit that boarding doesn't suit
:47:28. > :47:32.
:47:32. > :47:37.every child, but when it works the effect can be transformative.
:47:37. > :47:47.That's all we have time for tonight. That's all we have time for tonight.
:47:47. > :47:48.
:47:48. > :47:53.Good night. Good evening, even though most of us will have seen
:47:53. > :47:56.rain by first light, one or two gardens will be disappointingly dry.
:47:56. > :47:59.That will be the last of the significant rain. Light rain or
:47:59. > :48:03.drizzle across southern and western areas, it will be a day where
:48:03. > :48:06.things turn dryer and brighter. With a bit more brightness breaking
:48:06. > :48:12.through the cloud in Northern Ireland and central and eastern
:48:12. > :48:15.Scotland in particular, after the cool, wet windy conditions, it will
:48:15. > :48:19.feel warmer. Even the low 20s across part of north-east England.
:48:19. > :48:25.A little more cloud to the west of the Pennines, here brighter sunny
:48:25. > :48:29.spells. It might take a good part of the day through East Anglia and
:48:29. > :48:34.the south-east to see those spells develop. It looks like even with
:48:34. > :48:38.drizzle in the morning, Wimbledon should be try in the afternoon.
:48:38. > :48:41.Cloud in the south west and Wales, a noticable breeze but dry through