:00:14. > :00:18.first democratically elected Government in the biggest state in
:00:18. > :00:21.the Arab world has been shouldered aside by the army, yet the western
:00:21. > :00:29.Governments which so enthusiastically support democracy
:00:29. > :00:33.and so regularly condemn military coups remain almost mute.
:00:33. > :00:35.TRANSLATION: The constitution will be temporarily dissolved and the
:00:35. > :00:39.head of the constitutional court will manage state affairs while a
:00:39. > :00:45.new President is elected. declaration prompted great
:00:46. > :00:51.celebrations among those who wanted to bring down the President. But
:00:51. > :00:55.someer realise who see -- somber realisation from those who see him
:00:55. > :00:58.as the legitimate President. What sort of Middle East is going to
:00:59. > :01:08.emerge at the end of all of this. Is it wise for the west to promote
:01:08. > :01:18.democracy there. Also tonight, they are quite legal and quite fatal.
:01:18. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:29.says one two methiopropamine. you know what that is?
:01:29. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:36.Is the law to be outwitted by the called legal highs.
:01:36. > :01:40.That didn't last long, the Egyptian army have given the country's first
:01:40. > :01:45.democratically chosen President 48 hours to appease his enemies and
:01:45. > :01:49.when he didn't manage it, so for the second time the Arab Spring,
:01:49. > :01:53.which was supposed to usher in popular rule has left the army in
:01:53. > :01:57.charge of the biggest nation in the Arab world. No word on where the
:01:57. > :02:01.President himself is, in the meantime there will be a temporary
:02:01. > :02:05.Government, until more elections. First off, let's go to the centre
:02:05. > :02:09.of the process in Tahrir Square, Jeremy Bowen is there. Last night
:02:09. > :02:17.you talked about the danger of something perhaps akin to civil war,
:02:17. > :02:23.is that danger now passing. I'm not hearing you too well. Let me tell
:02:23. > :02:25.you about the atmosphere here. The decible level is quite
:02:25. > :02:30.extraordinary. That is because there are so many people here
:02:30. > :02:35.delighted about what they have achieved. It took them 18 days to
:02:35. > :02:39.come to this place and to oust Hosni Mubarak. It has taken three
:02:39. > :02:46.for President Morsi. And I think after Mubarak went there was a
:02:46. > :02:52.sense of ex shaux, not here and now -- exshaugs, not here and Where Are
:02:52. > :02:57.We Now. They are full of energy. Even though there are vast crowds
:02:57. > :03:02.on the street, Cairo has 20 million people, it is certain that the
:03:02. > :03:05.large amounts of people in the city tonight who are dismayed,
:03:05. > :03:09.supporters of Muslim Brotherhood, who feel their man was elected
:03:09. > :03:16.fairly and has been cheated. know the region very well, how is
:03:16. > :03:21.it likely to play in other countries around about? To start
:03:21. > :03:26.with, Egypt sees itself and is seen as one of the great, the great
:03:26. > :03:31.centre. Cairo is the great centre of the Arab world. The most populus
:03:31. > :03:37.Arab country by a very, by a about a quarter of Arabs are Egyptians.
:03:37. > :03:40.People take a lead from here. That is what happened in 2011 in the
:03:40. > :03:43.revolutions here. A of those revolutions started after what
:03:43. > :03:46.happened -- a lot of those revolutions started after what
:03:46. > :03:51.happened here in Cairo. The Muslim Brotherhood has been seen here and
:03:51. > :03:54.elsewhere as one of the big winners, maybe the biggest winner of the
:03:54. > :04:03.Arab uprisings, not least because it was very well organised. However
:04:03. > :04:06.it is not looking like that tonight here in Egypt.
:04:06. > :04:10.If their power long-term is broken that will have reprecussions around
:04:10. > :04:14.the region, it will change the political balance, the political
:04:14. > :04:19.equation in many other countries, right across North Africa and
:04:19. > :04:25.elsewhere. There is a question here too isn't there for the Egyptian
:04:25. > :04:35.military. Because American military aid is strictly dependant on arm
:04:35. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:45.years they give assistance to, not staging coups. The Egyptian
:04:45. > :04:48.military is in a very delicate position. The Egyptian army I have
:04:48. > :04:51.heard is with the people and will not attack the people. That is
:04:51. > :04:55.something they won't end up doing. They have said if there is any
:04:55. > :04:58.violence they will deal with it. The thing is, the city is very
:04:58. > :05:05.tense. The country is very sentence. There are clashes not just here but
:05:05. > :05:09.elsewhere in the country as well. The army will be stuck within that,
:05:09. > :05:13.they want to remain above the battle, literally and
:05:14. > :05:21.metaphorically, they are players. They have always been strong
:05:21. > :05:24.arbiters of power here, what they are also is as well as arbiters of
:05:25. > :05:31.power, they are open political players. There are reprecussions
:05:31. > :05:35.with their relationship with the Americans. The Americans bank roll
:05:35. > :05:40.the Egyptian army, $2 billion a year. Under American law if the
:05:40. > :05:44.Americans decide what has happened here is a coup d'etat, by most
:05:44. > :05:50.definitions I would say that is what it is, by law they are
:05:50. > :05:55.obligated to suspend those aid aiplts. We have to remember there
:05:55. > :05:58.were 13 million or so people who voted for Mohamed Morsi. They may
:05:58. > :06:08.not have been as noisy as the protestors these last few days. But
:06:08. > :06:13.they are not keen to give up power. At the beginning of the day, when
:06:13. > :06:17.the future of the Arab world's most populus country hung in the balance.
:06:17. > :06:21.Supporters of President Mohamed Morsi proclaimed their patriotism
:06:21. > :06:26.and declared they wouldn't leave the streets.
:06:26. > :06:33.Their hero is not very charismatic, he admits he has made mistakes, big
:06:33. > :06:36.ones in his first year in office. But he's democratically elected.
:06:36. > :06:42.For Morsi's movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, who organised that
:06:42. > :06:48.rally, that is what counts. After the revolution we vote for our
:06:48. > :06:54.President, he is the only authority, the only elected authority in the
:06:54. > :07:01.history, in Egyptian history. Only elected, one election free. He is
:07:01. > :07:06.the only elected authority in Egypt. He is the President.
:07:06. > :07:11.As they waited for the announcement and whether the army would
:07:11. > :07:16.intervene to remove him, following a rejection of the ultimatum to bow
:07:16. > :07:23.to millions of anti-Government protestors, their rallying cry was
:07:23. > :07:28.legitimacy. That wasn't all. "We sacrifice ourselves with our
:07:28. > :07:31.blood and our soul for Islam" they are shouting now. Most of the time
:07:31. > :07:36.Muslim Brotherhood spokesmen prefer to talk about democracy and
:07:36. > :07:45.legitimacy, but the cry here now is very different, it is for Sharia,
:07:45. > :07:47.for an Islamic state. These people, mainly religious,
:07:47. > :07:50.mainly lower middle-class represent a huge strand of Egyptian society
:07:50. > :07:55.that feels it was excluded from power for decades under the
:07:55. > :08:02.dictatorship, and now, after just one year, it is being threatened
:08:02. > :08:07.with exclusion from power again. The Muslim people are part of this
:08:08. > :08:11.country OK, but the liberal people want to take over the country. The
:08:11. > :08:16.country, this country is an Islamic country, it is an Egyptian country,
:08:16. > :08:22.not for one people, not for one part of people, all of us are
:08:22. > :08:28.Egyptians, but unfortunately the liberal people want to take over
:08:28. > :08:33.the country. Now, as far as these people are
:08:33. > :08:37.concerned, Egypt's liberals, and Egypt's army are formed an
:08:37. > :08:41.unnatural alliance against them and they are scared. What haunts
:08:41. > :08:47.Islamists is the memory of though they were prepressed, many tortured
:08:47. > :08:49.and im-- repressed and many tortured and imprisoned in the long
:08:49. > :08:53.dictatorship. That is why since the Muslim Brotherhood it has been in
:08:53. > :08:59.power it has tried to reach an accommodation with the army and the
:08:59. > :09:06.police, clearly that hasn't worked. Now many are afraid that if the
:09:06. > :09:12.army intervenes again, dark days of oppression will turn. This physics
:09:12. > :09:16.teacher, a Muslim Brotherhood member remembers that.
:09:16. > :09:20.TRANSLATION: Because of my ideology as a Muslim brother, I was arrested,
:09:20. > :09:22.imprisoned and tortured under Hosni Mubarak. They used to take me from
:09:22. > :09:27.my school to the state security prison, there was oppression all
:09:27. > :09:33.the time, sometimes I had to tell them I wasn't a in the Muslim
:09:33. > :09:39.Brotherhood to save myself. military coup now he predicted
:09:39. > :09:44.would just lead to civil war. (gunfire) A frightening glimpse of
:09:44. > :09:48.what could happen came earlier, when clashes between supporters of
:09:48. > :09:51.the Government were reported to have killed at least 16 people.
:09:51. > :09:55.Meanwhile, across town on Tahrir Square, the mass protest movement
:09:55. > :10:02.that has erupted in recent days was also waiting for the army's
:10:02. > :10:04.announcement. Some even demanding that the President be arrested. As
:10:04. > :10:09.the army's deadline passed, security forces moved around Cairo,
:10:09. > :10:13.but the military's intentions remained unknown as top generals
:10:13. > :10:17.held crisis talks with opposition and religious leaders. Reports that
:10:17. > :10:24.the army had already put Mr Morsi under house arrest were denied by a
:10:24. > :10:29.presidential spokesman. Then, at last, hours after everyone expected
:10:29. > :10:36.came the announcement everyone was waiting for. TRANSLATION: The Armed
:10:36. > :10:45.Forces sensed its vision that the Egyptian people which are calling
:10:45. > :10:51.it to support it, not to take power or to regin, but it is calling the
:10:51. > :11:01.forces to serve the public interest and to protect the demanding of the
:11:01. > :11:03.
:11:03. > :11:06.revolutions. As the crowd of protestors erupted in delight, the
:11:06. > :11:08.Defence Minister went on to announce that a technocratic
:11:08. > :11:12.Government will take over power until new presidential elections
:11:12. > :11:15.can be held. He said the constitution pushed through last
:11:15. > :11:19.year by the Muslim Brotherhood was cancelled, a new one would be
:11:19. > :11:23.written to pave the way for a new parliament. All over Cairo those
:11:23. > :11:31.who opposed the Muslim Brotherhood took to the streets to celebrate.
:11:31. > :11:35.think it is the proper action against a dictator. I think it is a
:11:35. > :11:39.proper justice to all Egyptians. I think all aspects were addressed
:11:40. > :11:44.properly. I think there will be somebody to just take charge and
:11:44. > :11:49.until we are ready to set up a parliament and until we are ready
:11:49. > :11:53.to just move ahead. The protestors have got almost all they wanted.
:11:53. > :12:00.But this isn't the end of the crisis. The announcement, a coup,
:12:00. > :12:05.in all but name, keeps the army out of day-to-day politics. But it
:12:05. > :12:10.reinforces a fundamental fault line in Egyptian society. And it raises
:12:10. > :12:13.profound questions about what the Arab Spring was really for?
:12:13. > :12:19.This certainly hasn't been a triumph for democracy. The crowds
:12:19. > :12:23.are now cheering the very forces, the army and the Police whom they
:12:23. > :12:27.were denouncing only a year ago, and who stand abused of many human
:12:27. > :12:31.rights abuses. As the party goes on in Tahrir Square, the army is now
:12:31. > :12:34.blocking roads to try to contain further protests by the other side,
:12:34. > :12:42.supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood. Talk of compromise
:12:42. > :12:46.seems to have been forgotten, and the stageset for further conflict.
:12:46. > :12:54.With us now is a spokesperson for the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK.
:12:54. > :12:58.Do you help that you have lost? What has happened today is a coup.
:12:58. > :13:02.It is unconstitutional and it is not legitimate to completely
:13:03. > :13:07.dismiss what people, as you mentioned, over 13 million people
:13:07. > :13:11.wanted. They wanted a President. I think it is very interesting also
:13:11. > :13:14.to portray the constitution as a Muslim Brotherhood constitution,
:13:14. > :13:18.this constitution went to the referendum to the people and over
:13:18. > :13:24.62% of the people voted in favour of it. So it gained its legitimacy
:13:24. > :13:30.through the ballot box as well. I think what has happened is
:13:30. > :13:33.completely, I don't know, I can't seen describe how horrendous an act
:13:33. > :13:43.it is against democracy against all values, the western countries are
:13:43. > :13:46.
:13:46. > :13:53.standing for. Do you understand where President Morsi is tonight?,
:13:53. > :13:56.do you know where he is? I have been in contact with people who
:13:56. > :14:00.closely associated with the President at the moment, some of
:14:00. > :14:08.the few people are present with him at the moment President Morsi has
:14:08. > :14:12.had a statement maybe half an hour ago. And he reemphasised the
:14:12. > :14:16.legitimacy, the illegitimate institutional democracy that we
:14:16. > :14:20.want to get into constitutional democracy. He emphasised we don't
:14:20. > :14:23.want to go down the route of violence. He emphasised the
:14:23. > :14:26.importance of having peaceful transitions generally. He also
:14:26. > :14:34.emphasised that this is a coup and the world has to stop this coup
:14:34. > :14:37.from happening. Millions of people are on the streets and even at home,
:14:37. > :14:41.they have voted for President Morsi, they have not taken to the streets
:14:41. > :14:44.as you have mention the but that will make them angry. They won't
:14:44. > :14:47.believe in democracy. We have had a referendum for the constitution and
:14:47. > :14:52.now the constitution is cancelled. We have had presidential elections
:14:52. > :14:55.and now there is a coup against him, a military coup to a point that
:14:55. > :14:59.presidential candidates are people who wanted to be Presidents are
:14:59. > :15:02.being appointed. And a third thing as well, the parliament has been
:15:02. > :15:11.dissolved, so you have already had parliamentary elections and then
:15:11. > :15:15.they want us to go steps back, ever time we go towards democratic
:15:15. > :15:25.legitimacy we are sent back it status quo. Do you know how
:15:25. > :15:27.
:15:27. > :15:31.President Morsi, was he arrested tonight? I don't have a clear view
:15:31. > :15:34.of that. My brother is the assistant of the President for
:15:34. > :15:42.foreign relations, he is a senior assistant for the President. He has
:15:42. > :15:46.been close with him over the past days, he hasn't been home. I was
:15:46. > :15:50.trying to get hold of him over the last two hours, it was impossible.
:15:50. > :15:53.The militarys has spread the tanks throughout east Cairo, around the
:15:53. > :15:59.demonstrators who are supporting President Morsi, it is possible
:15:59. > :16:03.also to get in touch by -- it is impossible to get in touch by phone
:16:03. > :16:08.in east Cairo, they shut all the TV channel, all the Islamic TV
:16:08. > :16:12.channels were shut. I think this is a reputation of the era in 1954
:16:12. > :16:16.when he did the military coup. I think this is the statement that
:16:16. > :16:20.says in Aric beneath his picture, "this is what we are going to do
:16:20. > :16:25.for the Muslim Brotherhood". Certainly announcing a military
:16:25. > :16:29.coup that would last from 1954 until 2011 and then for 50-
:16:29. > :16:33.something years and we need another revolution like the one we had in
:16:33. > :16:43.2011. It is very early days obviously, what is the thinking
:16:43. > :16:45.
:16:45. > :16:50.within the Muslim Brotherhood about how things go forward from here
:16:50. > :16:53.Muslim Brotherhood think that we need to stay together and try to
:16:53. > :16:58.enforce the democracy. And the democracy of the ballot box, try to
:16:58. > :17:08.move it forwards and get people to actually express their opinion in a
:17:08. > :17:15.
:17:15. > :17:20.democratic way. It is impossible to dismiss the blunt bias. It is very
:17:20. > :17:25.important Muslim Brotherhood is encouraging everyone to take part
:17:25. > :17:31.in support of the legitimacy and to stand against the military coup
:17:31. > :17:38.that is taking place at the moment. We will not take another era, we
:17:38. > :17:43.will not take another military coup. The army has said it will react
:17:43. > :17:49.forcibly if there is resistance to what it has done? That is what Nasr
:17:49. > :17:53.said. The difference between 2011 and 2013 is people in 2013 were so
:17:53. > :17:58.scared to go out against Mubarak because of his state police. When
:17:58. > :18:01.my brother who is now somewherek went out in 2011, jeopardising our
:18:01. > :18:05.familiarly, when I went out, when we have been protesting ever since
:18:05. > :18:11.I was a child for democracy and human rights, we were so scared.
:18:11. > :18:14.But we didn't care now millions are on the street because they know
:18:15. > :18:19.there is nothing to stop them expressing their opinions.
:18:19. > :18:24.President Morsi wouldn't express them from -- stop them from
:18:24. > :18:28.expressing their opinions. He has allowed freedom of expression. The
:18:28. > :18:31.military coup will stop the Muslim Brotherhood supporters or even the
:18:31. > :18:36.legitimacy supporter from expressing their opinions. Thank
:18:36. > :18:40.you very much. We are expecting to be speaking to
:18:40. > :18:44.an Egyptian army general shortly but in the meantime let as talk to
:18:44. > :18:48.Mark Urban, it is quite something when you compare the Arab Spring
:18:48. > :18:51.optimisim with this summer's anxiety about whether the state can
:18:52. > :18:56.survive. Popular protests then brought down Governments, not just
:18:56. > :19:01.in Egypt but in Tunisia, Libya and in Yemen, encouraged by the west.
:19:01. > :19:06.Today all the United States is doing is wittering. Meantime, of
:19:06. > :19:10.course, there is a nasty Civil war raging in Syria, threatening to
:19:10. > :19:13.destablise neighbouring Lebanon, taken together they do make you
:19:13. > :19:19.bonder about the west's encouragement of democracy in the
:19:19. > :19:23.region. What ought we to understand about this part of the world? Our
:19:23. > :19:27.diplomatic editor is with us. Whys has the Arab Spring gone so badly
:19:27. > :19:34.wrong, do you think? This is a big moment, isn't it tonight, a good
:19:34. > :19:38.moment to take stock. We have seen these revolutions across the region.
:19:38. > :19:43.The countries affected, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen and of course
:19:43. > :19:48.Syria. The old system has been overturned, or at least seriouslyle
:19:48. > :19:54.challenged in Syria, and in a sense people are struggling to find a new
:19:54. > :20:01.system that make sense. The key thing that people are struggling,
:20:01. > :20:06.we have heard the world so many times tonight, "legitimacy".
:20:06. > :20:14.Elections only seem to play an understand depbltdepbl role in that
:20:14. > :20:17.quest. Where do we want, religion, Islam in its different forms, the
:20:17. > :20:21.army. All these constitutions argued about in Egypt for the past
:20:21. > :20:26.two years, all of these things are being seized upon by people trying
:20:26. > :20:33.to find legitimacy. You might say they are making progress in some
:20:33. > :20:38.places, but in other places its a truingling without end. Contrast
:20:38. > :20:42.that with the monarchys in the region, there hab problems in
:20:42. > :20:46.Bahrain and Jordan, it is facing difficult challenges, but Qatar
:20:46. > :20:50.managed a leadership change the other week and nobody in theed. An
:20:50. > :20:55.ordinary success through the dynastic principle. Even though
:20:55. > :20:59.they may be challenged and dissent in those countries, in those
:20:59. > :21:02.countries the greater sense of legitimacy has resulted so far in a
:21:02. > :21:08.more ordinary situation at least. What are the options for the west?
:21:08. > :21:11.Well, look at the journey that the US /UK and other countries have
:21:11. > :21:17.been on, particularly since the Iraq War. They went into Iraq,
:21:17. > :21:23.having done so for all sort of reasons, this argument, many people
:21:23. > :21:30.called it a neo-conargument about trying to plant a model democracy
:21:30. > :21:34.in the Middle East. It brought to power religious-based parties and a
:21:34. > :21:38.lot of amateurs and those who played the sectarian game, a costly
:21:38. > :21:44.process for Iraq. The US encouraged the Palestinian Authority to hold
:21:44. > :21:47.elections. That indirectly brought about the split between Hamas in
:21:47. > :21:52.Gaza and Fatah on the West Bank. Which has disastrous consequences
:21:52. > :21:56.for the Middle East peace process. In Lebanon too, American pressure
:21:56. > :22:02.to hold elections that eventually led to this Hezbollah dominatedle
:22:02. > :22:07.coalition. Not a result that in many ways -- dominated coalition,
:22:07. > :22:11.not a result that America would be happy with. They don't feel able to
:22:11. > :22:15.suggest anything other than democracy, but it is rebounding to
:22:15. > :22:18.the detriment of western interests. It could be that these countries
:22:18. > :22:21.are not suitable for democracy? That is an old fashioned view. If
:22:21. > :22:26.you travel across the region you do meet many people, particularly in
:22:26. > :22:29.countries like Egypt, there are sizeable cohorts of people who get
:22:29. > :22:35.it. Young people, networked into the world. They know what
:22:35. > :22:40.democratic freedoms look like. Think understand it, it is a hell
:22:40. > :22:46.of a struggle, you can look at some of these places and say the glass
:22:46. > :22:51.is half full. Tunisia and Libya have held successful election, they
:22:51. > :22:55.face challenges of Islamisation. In Tunisia lawlessness and Libya. But
:22:55. > :23:02.they are getting there. But this struggle could stilling very long
:23:02. > :23:05.in some of these places. Thank you very much. We are going
:23:05. > :23:11.to talk now about the broader question about what to expect what
:23:11. > :23:19.will happen in the rest of the region? We have a number of guests
:23:19. > :23:27.over here. Including the recent British ambassador in Cairo. Other
:23:27. > :23:32.guest from earlier is also here as is the, what are you? The Coptic
:23:32. > :23:38.bishop? I'm general bishop of the Coptic church in the UK. We are
:23:38. > :23:45.joined from tort ront toe by a writer of Sex -- Toronto, writer of
:23:46. > :23:55.Sex in the Citadel. Let's go to Toronto, can you tell us what you
:23:56. > :23:55.
:23:56. > :23:59.think went wrong? With former President Morsi's Government, there
:23:59. > :24:07.is so much happening, which bit went wrong. Nobody in the west
:24:07. > :24:15.would seek to encourage a military coup in the normal course of events.
:24:15. > :24:20.Why was it necessary in the view of the Egyptian military. The Muslim
:24:20. > :24:23.Brotherhood had literally a once- in-a-lifetime opportunity, for 80
:24:23. > :24:26.years it has been waiting to come to power. When it came to power it
:24:26. > :24:34.made a spectacular mess of things, in terms of economic, all the
:24:34. > :24:38.problems that Egypt has, in term of the inability to -- in terms of the
:24:38. > :24:40.inability to provide on the streets for Egyptians. They failed. What is
:24:40. > :24:45.most frustrating is former President Morsi appears to have
:24:45. > :24:51.taken a leaf out of the PlayBook of former President Mubarak. Borrowing
:24:51. > :24:54.many of the same tactic, yes I know he talks about being democratically
:24:54. > :25:04.elected, when he declared himself Pharaoh until further notice at the
:25:04. > :25:05.
:25:05. > :25:09.end of last year, when he tried ride roughshod over the parliament,
:25:09. > :25:13.and threw journalists into prisons and tried to limit the laws that
:25:13. > :25:18.limited civil society. These are undemocratic actions, no wonder he
:25:18. > :25:22.has been playing the card of legitimate elections because he
:25:22. > :25:26.threw all the other cards of democracy away. Former President
:25:26. > :25:29.Morsi has forgotten that you cannot deal with the Egyptian people any
:25:29. > :25:34.longer. You can't use the tactics of President Mubarak, because the
:25:34. > :25:38.one thing that former President Mubarak had of fear on his side. He
:25:38. > :25:44.had an apparatus to instill that fear. All that is gone. President
:25:44. > :25:48.Morsi did not learn from that and he and his colleagues are paying
:25:48. > :25:56.the price. The first democratically elected
:25:56. > :25:59.President, this was an exciting event why did it go wrong?
:25:59. > :26:02.Performance and distrust. Performance in that he didn't
:26:02. > :26:06.deliver, they didn't deliver what the Egyptian people were looking
:26:07. > :26:14.for, improvement to their lives. And distrust has just been pointed
:26:14. > :26:18.out, at the end of last year. Putting himself above the law. In
:26:18. > :26:26.one sentence he destroyed what the whole point of the revolution in
:26:26. > :26:31.2011 was about. So I think those are two Cardinal ipept policy tegss
:26:31. > :26:37.that were made. -- inept policy decisions that were made.
:26:37. > :26:41.Ineptitude wasn't the Monday loply of the Government. Everybody in --
:26:42. > :26:47.monopoly of the Government. Everyone was playing an inept game.
:26:47. > :26:54.But they were unable to put together a coherent vision, and the
:26:54. > :26:58.military issued an ultimatum and called time. Did you feel this was
:26:58. > :27:03.an illegitimate Government? didn't think it was illegitimate.
:27:03. > :27:06.There was a democratic election. won a majority? There was a small
:27:06. > :27:11.presence there. Basically the President, the former President
:27:11. > :27:17.came in with a 12% mandate. Only 50% of Egyptians eligible to vote,
:27:17. > :27:20.only 50% went out to vote, only 50% barely voted of that was said to be
:27:21. > :27:30.democratic. The problems that happened during that is there was
:27:31. > :27:31.
:27:31. > :27:35.actually no attempt to bring the people together after allegations
:27:35. > :27:39.about Muslim Brotherhood and even Christians, that after the last few
:27:39. > :27:45.decades there was a culture of divide and conquer. Rather than
:27:45. > :27:48.using it to bring people together to create a cohesive state and
:27:48. > :27:52.national identity, there was a greater breakdown. So we find
:27:52. > :27:57.towards the end now it was no longer even Christian-Muslim. It
:27:57. > :28:03.was one agenda against everyone else. You have a look of mourning
:28:03. > :28:07.on your face. I understand why. But do you accept that any of these
:28:08. > :28:12.criticisms have any validity in them? First I don't accept he's a
:28:12. > :28:15.former President, according to the Egyptian constitution he is the
:28:15. > :28:19.President. An important point to make actually. Let's leave that to
:28:19. > :28:21.one side? Some of the concerns are legitimate. The President since his
:28:21. > :28:26.first day, he opened up for dialogue, he called for dialogue
:28:26. > :28:30.over and over again. In January he called for a dialogue, over and
:28:30. > :28:38.over again, for open dialogue. He offered the National Salvation
:28:38. > :28:41.Front leaders positions, he offered them to lead the Government. He
:28:41. > :28:48.offered primes position and President position to one of the
:28:48. > :28:52.National Salvation Front leaders as well. He has been opening up. The
:28:52. > :28:55.old position did not want that, and didn't want to put hand in hand
:28:55. > :28:57.with the Muslim Brotherhood at the moment. I see the opposition at the
:28:57. > :29:04.moment as fractured opposition, not even prep ynt I have of what's
:29:04. > :29:13.happening on the streets. I do not see a future for Egypt after this
:29:13. > :29:15.point to be honest. What is the wider implication for what happened
:29:16. > :29:19.to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt for other similar organisations
:29:19. > :29:21.throughout the region? I think it is not just a question I would
:29:21. > :29:24.address to the Muslim Brotherhood. I think it is the political
:29:25. > :29:29.leadership in all the countries. Particularly those who have gone
:29:29. > :29:35.through the revolutions. We have seen and in Eastern Europe, in the
:29:35. > :29:41.1990s and in other revolutions the political transition is going to be
:29:41. > :29:47.bumpy, complex and not easy for those on the ground. And not easy
:29:47. > :29:51.for outside Governments who have to deal with those countries. The
:29:51. > :29:55.message is deliver improvement in people as lives, that is what they
:29:55. > :30:05.wanted. Treat them with dignity, that is what the revolutions were
:30:05. > :30:06.
:30:06. > :30:10.about. Include people into the future. Some countries are very
:30:10. > :30:15.lucky and they have at that period in their transitions people with
:30:15. > :30:20.the vision and charisma. Sadly those sorts of leaders are few and
:30:20. > :30:24.probably, I can't think of them, in the Arab revolution countries.
:30:24. > :30:29.So you have to, they have to count on something rather different,
:30:29. > :30:35.which is delivering results, and making people feel that they are
:30:35. > :30:42.part of the policy process. Let me put it very crudely to you, the
:30:42. > :30:48.suggestion is being made already by some people that most of these
:30:48. > :30:54.countries are in a word too unsophisticate, too primitive for
:30:54. > :30:58.democracy? What do you think? Speaks as an Egyptian and
:30:58. > :31:04.vehemently reject that. We are seeing the evolution on the ground.
:31:04. > :31:10.There aren't that many people that went from decades of Cologneian
:31:10. > :31:15.occupation, and then the military to a single democracy in a bound.
:31:15. > :31:18.When your other guest says the opposition loader is fragmented and
:31:18. > :31:22.disorganised. Over the past few years we have seen the coming
:31:22. > :31:26.together of groups. They were chaotic after the 2011 uprising,
:31:26. > :31:35.you look today at the ability to mobilise tens of millions on to the
:31:35. > :31:39.strot. You look at the sophistication of the country, this
:31:39. > :31:47.is a learning curve for everyone, this is the training ground of
:31:47. > :31:54.demoingcy. We have taken Australian -- democracy, we have taken an un -
:31:54. > :31:59.- un seen road with the Muslim Brotherhood but we are back out
:31:59. > :32:02.inhead. Do you think your society will prakure with the demands of
:32:02. > :32:08.democracy? I think that the Egyptian society was not ready for
:32:08. > :32:11.a quick implementation of democracy, two factors were never resolved,
:32:11. > :32:16.illiteracy and poverty. You have a society that is there, that wants
:32:16. > :32:21.to move ahead. What we have seen in Tahrir Square over the past two
:32:21. > :32:25.days, and the past month, it is not a society unable to live democracy.
:32:25. > :32:29.It is a society that was never prepared for it. Even in the past
:32:29. > :32:32.year nothing has been done for that as well. Ifer we are going to talk
:32:32. > :32:37.about receipt -- we are going to talk about rhetoric, there has been
:32:37. > :32:40.a lot of rhetoric over the past year and delivery. I must tell you
:32:40. > :32:47.something for our brothers on the street for the Muslim Brotherhood.
:32:47. > :32:51.I say that sincerely, I know what it means as a Christian in Egypt to
:32:51. > :32:56.be marginalise, alienated, not to to be brought into a process, there
:32:56. > :32:58.is that fear but that was never, ever addressed. What we want at the
:32:59. > :33:02.moment is reconciliation on every front. When there is a call to
:33:02. > :33:06.bring people together. We heard in the military statement today that
:33:06. > :33:12.there was a small for all parties to come together months ago,
:33:12. > :33:15.including the presidency. To try to avoid a day like today. Everyone
:33:15. > :33:22.turned up but the presidency. There was an arrogance about the process,
:33:22. > :33:27.that is what led us to today. Egypt fragmented and will not continue to
:33:27. > :33:31.exist in this way. I have a strong fear that Egyptians, by their
:33:31. > :33:35.nature are a wonderful loving people who want to work together.
:33:35. > :33:40.They just need pragmatic and intentional leadership in that
:33:40. > :33:45.direction. That wasn't there but hopefully it will be. What the
:33:45. > :33:49.broader implications for the region as a whole, there was all the
:33:49. > :33:55.exuburance for the car rab spring. It is not turning out as everybody
:33:55. > :34:00.-- for the Arab spring. It was always going to be a difficult
:34:00. > :34:04.transition, you don't come out of 40, 50 years of no political
:34:04. > :34:13.expression into a fully-formed democratic structure. It was
:34:13. > :34:19.utterly predictable in that sense. It is going to be bumpy. I contest
:34:19. > :34:23.the that the region is not able for representative politics, democracy
:34:23. > :34:28.whatever you want to call it. One thing you have seen in Cairo and we
:34:28. > :34:32.saw it in 2011, and I have seen it in Libya is a passionate interest
:34:32. > :34:39.amongst the people to be represented and to have their
:34:39. > :34:42.voices heard. That to me is democracy pure and simple. Can I
:34:42. > :34:47.add something to that, what we have seen on the street is so man people
:34:47. > :34:51.from different walks of life with - - so many people with different
:34:51. > :34:55.walks of life and agendas, if you give them a common goal and cause
:34:55. > :34:59.they will stand together, that is the pragmatic leadership needed
:34:59. > :35:03.right now. Nice to end on a positive note.
:35:03. > :35:06.Certainly anyone who uses them knows which recreational drugs are
:35:06. > :35:12.illegal in Britain. If you choose to use them you buy from a dealer
:35:12. > :35:18.and you know you take a risk to enhance your sen sayings. Yet there
:35:18. > :35:22.is an abundance of substances which you can go into a shop and buy
:35:22. > :35:26.legal low and consumed for pleasure. It is assumed just because they are
:35:26. > :35:30.not illegal they are not dang are you. They can be as plenty of
:35:30. > :35:40.deaths testify. The plain fact is chemists can cook up new ways of
:35:40. > :35:45.
:35:45. > :35:51.getting off your head, faster than the Government can regulate them.
:35:51. > :35:58.Legal highs, designer drugs, new psychoactive substances. Call them
:35:58. > :36:02.what you will, but these are drugs created for the sole purposes of
:36:02. > :36:06.mimicking illegal substances. They are often brand-new, untested
:36:06. > :36:13.chemicals that around UK law by simply claiming not to be for human
:36:13. > :36:18.consumption. When it leave the shop it is up to
:36:18. > :36:23.them. They are a free human being to do whatever they want with the
:36:23. > :36:27.product. It is a huge experiment, essential low people are treating
:36:27. > :36:34.themselves as guinea pig. You will try one and like it the first time,
:36:34. > :36:39.90% of people. It is the aftermath, how many times it does ruin. How is
:36:39. > :36:44.it that these strong untested new psychoactive substances, linked to
:36:44. > :36:52.at least 40 deaths last year are so freely available. Is the Government
:36:52. > :36:55.losing the fight against this booming industry. Jessica was
:36:55. > :36:59.taking a lot of legal highs a couple of years ago of the she was
:36:59. > :37:03.16 and buying them from a shop on her local high street. When you
:37:03. > :37:06.first take them you think it is good because you never felt that
:37:06. > :37:11.feeling before. You sort of experiment with your own body.
:37:11. > :37:16.After a bit you sort of realise that you can't function right, you
:37:16. > :37:23.can't do simple tasks like make a cup of juice. Your body just feels
:37:23. > :37:28.drained and you want to go to sleep yet you are so awake. When I used
:37:28. > :37:37.to take legal highs...Jessica Stopped taking legal highs after
:37:37. > :37:41.getting fits of paranoia. A friend died after taking the band Meth
:37:41. > :37:46.drone. I noticed on Facebook statuss he was very depressed and
:37:46. > :37:52.down and I tried to speak to him. I lost confidence when I came out
:37:52. > :37:59.through that scene. I had had found out he hung himself on come thank
:37:59. > :38:09.he couldn't hack it on New Year's Day. This is one of 14 branches of
:38:09. > :38:14.UK Skunk Works, a called head shops selling various smoking
:38:14. > :38:18.paraphernalia. They sell potpourri and research chemicals. They are
:38:18. > :38:26.labelled not for consumer consumption, it means they can be
:38:26. > :38:35.sold openly but it means suppliers can't say to take them. It would be
:38:35. > :38:41.nice it provide information if someone accidentally ingested the
:38:41. > :38:50.product. It is an insane situation of having things on show and saying
:38:50. > :38:53.they are research chemicals and everybody knows that. It is a 21
:38:53. > :38:57.test century issue. The products are here, we are transparent, that
:38:57. > :39:06.is what we do. We brought it to the high street to be the first to
:39:06. > :39:09.regulate this industry. The top is transparent and we are transparent
:39:09. > :39:15.with you. We can't be transparent with certain products because of
:39:15. > :39:19.legislation. That is why. Which allows him to sell these products
:39:19. > :39:26.as long as he isn't tell them as drugs.
:39:26. > :39:34.These are the research bell lets, they are nicely packaged, it may be
:39:34. > :39:44.harmful if inhaled and et. It has the chemical combound underneath.
:39:44. > :39:45.
:39:45. > :39:49.Do you know what that is? The Internet means anyone with
:39:49. > :39:53.access to a credit card can easily buy these drugs. I ordered some
:39:53. > :39:58.line and they arrived in the promised discreet packaging the
:39:58. > :40:03.next day. More time has been getting suppliers to speak openly
:40:03. > :40:09.about the industry. Most didn't reply to my e-mail, one got in
:40:09. > :40:16.touch and said they looked after 40% of the legal high market. It
:40:16. > :40:23.creates many thousands to create a new legal high and manufactured on
:40:23. > :40:33.an industrial scale in India and China and redistributed in the UK.
:40:33. > :40:41.The owner of this station claims one million viewers, including --
:40:41. > :40:46.there are adverts to buy untested legal highs, and people can report
:40:46. > :40:51.dodgy vendors and look at doses. That is why Midas says his site is
:40:51. > :40:57.doing more to reduce harm than Government hands? We bend on
:40:57. > :41:01.substance. There you go, you can't sell that or recruit it. A new
:41:01. > :41:05.substance comes, this substance has even less information available. It
:41:05. > :41:14.might even be the sun stance is more harmful to people's lives that
:41:14. > :41:22.it is a law that it is not working. The Government says its system is
:41:22. > :41:26.constantly reviewed, but it can't second guess what might be harmful.
:41:26. > :41:30.Where we have discovered there is a legal high harmful to human health
:41:30. > :41:34.and there are recorded cases of people being admitted to hospital
:41:34. > :41:38.or in really extreme cases, dying as a result of taking that product.
:41:38. > :41:41.I think we have to intervene and legislate at that point. Whether
:41:41. > :41:44.that means that somebody invented another product. We don't know.
:41:44. > :41:48.Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I don't think that is a reason to
:41:48. > :41:53.turn a blind eye to the harm being done by the product that is being
:41:54. > :42:03.put in front of us. We took some of the substances we
:42:03. > :42:09.bought to beest ited by leading toxicologists. Given the head shop
:42:09. > :42:18.we went to didn't know what was in Pink Pant they ares, we wondered if
:42:18. > :42:27.the doctor had any idea., This is sold as a cocaine or speed copycat
:42:27. > :42:33.drug. What do we know what is in there? It has meth probe mean. That
:42:33. > :42:38.is similar to amphetamine. It is a very potent substance, it is known
:42:38. > :42:41.as crystal meth. It is not controlled by the Misuse of Drugs
:42:41. > :42:46.Act. But probably has a similar effect. So the people taking this
:42:46. > :42:51.stuff, do we know anything about what effect it could be having on
:42:52. > :43:00.their body? Nothing at all. They have not been tested as vugs. The
:43:00. > :43:06.people who know most about it are the kids of those who bought it.
:43:06. > :43:12.The assistance on the side of the packaging was accurate, there no
:43:12. > :43:17.instructions about it is due. Dr Ramsey explained how the drugs are
:43:17. > :43:25.developed to evade the law. They come about in two ways, people
:43:25. > :43:30.looking at the information for research tools or evaluated as
:43:30. > :43:36.pharmaceuticals or never been marketed. They look at a
:43:36. > :43:42.fundamental chemical structure like methamphetamine to see if they can
:43:42. > :43:52.bring it outside control. It this is how it might work, this is the
:43:52. > :43:56.chemical structure of a synthetic cannabis structure called AM-20 81.
:43:56. > :44:02.This is the active cannabis part that gets you high. If you keep
:44:02. > :44:12.this part of the chemical structure deep and look out for other places,
:44:12. > :44:13.
:44:13. > :44:23.you get PB22. It retains the active cannabis-like elements but
:44:23. > :44:24.
:44:24. > :44:28.different from AFPB000. -- some Lord Chancellor local authorities
:44:29. > :44:31.have tried to -- some local authorities have tried to sell the
:44:31. > :44:35.psychoactive substances. Health officials have told us an
:44:35. > :44:40.increasing number of people have ending up in hospital after taking
:44:40. > :44:45.legal highs. The local council took this shop into court after a
:44:45. > :44:52.teenager ended up in hospital after taking a sub gans called GoGaine.
:44:52. > :44:56.What we want -- a substance called GoGaine. We need action. We have
:44:56. > :44:59.had talks with people in the Home Office, we took a prosecution but
:44:59. > :45:03.unfortunately the laws in this area are very complex and clearly there
:45:03. > :45:08.is a gap in the legislation that enabled us to take a prosecution of
:45:08. > :45:17.this kind. We failed because he put harmful on the product box, saying
:45:17. > :45:22.this is "harmful" for human health.Le A mile away from the main
:45:22. > :45:26.Glastonbury site is a giant cow shed by has been transformed into a
:45:26. > :45:30.mobile Police Station. And Government testing laboratory.
:45:31. > :45:36.Scientists here are trying to identify brand new psychoactive
:45:36. > :45:39.substances, it is their job to warn their Government particularly toxic
:45:39. > :45:44.new drugs. Whilst we are there, they came across something they
:45:44. > :45:50.have never seen before. We have identified it as a slight
:45:50. > :45:55.chemical MoT p modification on an already illegal drug. BZP, it was
:45:55. > :46:00.the type of drug to mimic the effects of ecstacy. We have to run
:46:00. > :46:06.more tests to determine the exact structure and to determine if it is
:46:06. > :46:10.itself I I will lool. -- is illegal. The Government says
:46:10. > :46:20.it is leading the international response to this bourguignoning
:46:20. > :46:24.market by outlawing whole familiar -- burpblging market by outlawing
:46:24. > :46:29.whole familiar swathes of things. It seems the Government remains
:46:29. > :46:32.several steps behind. While we have been on air the
:46:32. > :46:37.Foreign Office has issued a statement on Egypt saying the
:46:37. > :46:41.situation is dangerous, and has called on all sides to show
:46:41. > :46:51.restraint and avoid violence. Kirsty will be here tomorrow. Good
:46:51. > :47:18.
:47:18. > :47:22.night. The rain returns to the west in the night. Heavy bursts to start
:47:22. > :47:26.with across Scotland and northern England, patchy rain and drizzle
:47:26. > :47:31.for Wales and the south west. A lot of mist and sea fog. Showers
:47:31. > :47:35.pushing south and eastward, after the overnight rain showers in
:47:35. > :47:41.Northern Ireland with brightness. The rain lighter across western
:47:41. > :47:45.Scotland. Showery in nature. Some will stay dry, dry brighter
:47:45. > :47:50.conditions returning with 18 or 19. Brightening up for northern England.
:47:50. > :47:54.In the showers in the morning brighter morning expected. Sunny
:47:54. > :47:58.spells in East Anglia, there is the chance of one or two showers around
:47:58. > :48:02.during the second half of the day. Some close to Wimbledon, a very
:48:02. > :48:04.small risk, most will stay dry. A dry afternoon across Wales and the
:48:04. > :48:10.south west too. Considering you start the day, grey and misty with
:48:10. > :48:13.fog around here. It does look much, much brighter. Now Thursday into
:48:13. > :48:18.Friday, high pressure starts to build. You will notice on the city
:48:18. > :48:20.forecast across the north. Cloud forecast across the north. Cloud
:48:20. > :48:24.around but a lift in temperatures. The further south the bluer the
:48:25. > :48:28.skies will be. Patchy cloud can't be ruled out here and there, but