:00:12. > :00:16.After the spectacular fall of democracy in Egypt, the military
:00:16. > :00:22.began cracking down on the Muslim Brotherhood today. But if political
:00:22. > :00:26.Islam has failed, what could take its place? This is the Egypt that
:00:26. > :00:31.rejects the army's intervention, they have said they won't leave
:00:31. > :00:34.this square, but they haven't yet spelt out a strategy for opposing
:00:34. > :00:39.the new authorities. How should the west respond to the return of
:00:39. > :00:45.military rule. We will speak to the former French Foreign Minister, and
:00:45. > :00:50.George W Bush's close ally, Paul Wolfowitz. The Labour movement is
:00:50. > :00:54.at war with itself over allegations of union malpractice. Tom Watson
:00:54. > :00:58.resigns in the Shadow Cabinet, and the head of Unite union attacks the
:00:58. > :01:01.party leadership. Is Labour imploding, I will speak to Angela
:01:01. > :01:06.Eagle from Labour's front bench. The new research that suggests that
:01:06. > :01:11.what we sometimes label the ups and downs of teenage behaviour could be
:01:11. > :01:15.undiagnosed depression and suicidal tendencies. It gets to the point
:01:15. > :01:19.where you are looking at sharp objects and thinking about the ways
:01:19. > :01:22.you could kill yourself. That is when you realise that is not
:01:22. > :01:29.hormones but something more serious, I don't think that is something
:01:29. > :01:36.most teenagers would do. As the chef of the world Graham muscle
:01:36. > :01:45.Bullfinch restaurant and avant- garde cuisine, I try to tempt him
:01:45. > :01:50.with something I have knocked up! Egyptians woke up this morning in a
:01:50. > :01:53.new regime, but not unknown. This coup represents a stunning defeat
:01:53. > :01:59.for political Islam. The Muslim Brotherhood has been preparing for
:01:59. > :02:03.power since they were created in the 1920s, and after less than a
:02:03. > :02:06.year they have been kicked out by a popular uprising and the military.
:02:06. > :02:10.Today the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood was arrested by the
:02:10. > :02:12.security forces cracking down on the Islamist movement. We have
:02:12. > :02:16.spoken to leading figures in the Muslim Brotherhood who vowed
:02:16. > :02:20.resistance against the army, their first act of defiance has been to
:02:20. > :02:28.call of a Friday of rejection following weekly prayers tomorrow.
:02:28. > :02:33.We report from Cairo. Less than a day into the latest
:02:33. > :02:38.victory of the popular will in Egypt you could see the despair on
:02:38. > :02:41.the faces of the defeated. Muslim Brotherhood supporters thought they
:02:41. > :02:51.too were children of the revolution. But the revolution has now devoured
:02:51. > :02:53.
:02:53. > :02:57.them. At midday prayers today, where Morsi supporters gathered in
:02:57. > :03:01.a Cairo suburb, the Imam issued a special prayer against those who
:03:01. > :03:10.laid injustice on them. The reference to the army's ousting of
:03:10. > :03:14.a democratically elected President was unmissable. This doctor has
:03:14. > :03:18.brought me to this outpost of resistance. He has told his wife
:03:18. > :03:22.and four children he doesn't know when he will be home again, because
:03:22. > :03:26.the protest camp will stay here until it is forcibly removed. It is
:03:26. > :03:31.never mentioned by the new army- controlled state media. They are
:03:31. > :03:36.isolating us from the world so that you should let our voice go to the
:03:37. > :03:42.world. Let them see that we are supporting Morsi, we are supporting
:03:42. > :03:45.Egypt. We will fight for our freedom, even by sacrificing
:03:45. > :03:49.ourselves. They have their faith, they believe, and democratic
:03:49. > :03:58.legitimacy on their side. But beyond shouting, it is not clear
:03:58. > :04:02.what they will do next. This is the Egypt that reject the armyer a
:04:02. > :04:08.intervention -- army's intervention. They say they won't leave the
:04:08. > :04:12.square, but they haven't spelt out a strategy for opposing the army.
:04:12. > :04:16.One of the senior Muslim Brotherhood members who hasn't been
:04:17. > :04:21.arrested was leaving the protests. Will there be strikes and
:04:21. > :04:25.disobedience? TRANSLATION: Civil disobedience isn't started with one
:04:25. > :04:29.decision, it is state that society reaches when it can't deal with the
:04:29. > :04:33.regime. We are simply protesting and rejecting the new situation
:04:33. > :04:36.peacefully, in many different ways. Where will the Muslim Brotherhood
:04:36. > :04:41.go now? The movement founded in Egypt which spread throughout the
:04:41. > :04:45.Middle East has been persecuted for much of its 85-year history. After
:04:45. > :04:49.the 2011 revolution it seized the chance to work through electoral
:04:49. > :04:53.politics. Will it now have to think again?
:04:53. > :04:56.Yesterday's events raised profound questions, not only about whether
:04:56. > :05:00.the Arab Spring can produce democracy, but also about whether
:05:00. > :05:04.political Islam can ever be confident of coming to power
:05:04. > :05:08.successfully through the ballot box. It worked in Tunisia, it worked in
:05:08. > :05:11.Turkey, but here, Egypt, the heart of the Arab world, this is the test
:05:11. > :05:15.case. Everyone knows there is a chance
:05:15. > :05:18.now that some Islamists will turn to violence.
:05:18. > :05:24.And you still believe the ballot box, you still believe in
:05:24. > :05:32.elections? Of course. Of course. But let me say something, what the
:05:32. > :05:36.army did to us may change the minds of other people. This is so
:05:36. > :05:40.dangerous for everyone in Egypt. But we are sticking and we will
:05:40. > :05:44.make people stick to the peaceful way, to give back -- get back our
:05:44. > :05:53.democracy. The problem is that over so many
:05:53. > :05:56.years, as a semi-clandes tin underground organisation, the --
:05:56. > :06:00.semi-clandestine underground organisation, it has turned in on
:06:00. > :06:04.itself, it didn't understand it was just about getting votes, but
:06:04. > :06:08.building alliances in society. That is what they failed to do last year,
:06:08. > :06:11.what lesson will they learn now? I was in their place I would be
:06:11. > :06:18.receiving two difficult messages. The first message is that we have
:06:18. > :06:22.done something wrong. And we need to be self-critical. We have failed
:06:22. > :06:27.to question our own leaders. We have failed to understand how
:06:27. > :06:33.democracy works. We have failed to understand how diverse and complex
:06:33. > :06:41.and big Egypt is. Alternatively, the odds are against us and there
:06:41. > :06:45.is no way we can really work within Egypt, within this democratic
:06:45. > :06:50.system. Maybe time has come to revisit the question of violence.
:06:50. > :06:54.Maybe now is the time to go back to violence.
:06:54. > :06:58.Today the unelected head of the constitutional court was sworn in
:06:58. > :07:02.as the new interim President. He promised the Brotherhood wouldn't
:07:02. > :07:09.be excluded from political life. But he implied Morsi's rule had
:07:09. > :07:14.been as bad as Mubarak's. TRANSLATION: We should stop
:07:14. > :07:22.producing new dictators and not worship anyone except God, no idols,
:07:22. > :07:30.fetishs or Presidents. Egypt's military, staging this fly-past
:07:30. > :07:35.over Cairo, may not be worshipsed - - sworshipped, but they want to be
:07:35. > :07:39.love. The thousands are cheering and staying on Tahrir Square until
:07:39. > :07:43.the Road Map for elections is brought forward. Some who oppose
:07:43. > :07:47.Morsi are even more worried by the authoritarian steps the army has
:07:47. > :07:52.taken since yesterday. We are 2 hours into the intervention, we
:07:52. > :07:55.have seen the closure of TV -- 24 hours into the intervention, we
:07:55. > :08:03.have seen the closure of TV stations and a lot of arrests that
:08:03. > :08:07.look like political I a -- arrested, aren't you having second thoughts,
:08:07. > :08:11.it is not such a good idea? I don't think I would have seen it to be a
:08:11. > :08:14.good idea in the first place. It seems to be coming back to the
:08:14. > :08:19.Mubarak way of dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood, rounding up
:08:19. > :08:23.their leaders, shutting down their media. Their newspaper was censored
:08:23. > :08:27.today as well. This is not the way to deal with a party that was
:08:27. > :08:32.democratically elected. For now, though, all the
:08:32. > :08:36.Brotherhood can do is express their anger and try to protect themselves
:08:36. > :08:43.in a country where no side seems to understand the meaning of the word
:08:43. > :08:48."inclusive". Here to discuss the dilemma is Egypt presents for other
:08:48. > :08:56.Governments of the former US deputy Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz,
:08:56. > :08:59.and the former French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner. This
:08:59. > :09:05.difficult question of democratic legitimacy. The Muslim Brotherhood
:09:05. > :09:09.members were, they were elected by the ballot box, they have been set
:09:09. > :09:12.aside by the military, you know, what is the chance that they will
:09:12. > :09:21.turn to something other than the ballot box and perhaps return to
:09:21. > :09:31.violence? Well it is very difficult to understand. To answer your
:09:31. > :09:35.
:09:35. > :09:39.question now. I hope that the this will look better than the Arab
:09:39. > :09:42.Spring. We don't know. I was listening to your words, is
:09:42. > :09:52.democracy be able to set up overnight, over one year?
:09:52. > :09:53.
:09:53. > :09:59.Impossible. But was it necessary for the people, very numberous
:09:59. > :10:06.people, mill they came down into the street and more numerous than
:10:06. > :10:08.they were -- millions they came down on to the street and more
:10:08. > :10:13.numerous than the Muslim Brotherhood. Is it enough? I don't
:10:13. > :10:17.think so, but is it better? I think it is better. Paul Wolfowitz you
:10:17. > :10:20.were very much a supporter of democracy for the Middle East. Did
:10:20. > :10:27.you think it would prove so difficult in Egypt that one year on
:10:27. > :10:32.Morsi would be deposed? You know I think Egypt is suffering from the
:10:32. > :10:35.death of civil society that was imposed by decade of dictatorial
:10:36. > :10:40.rule. I'm not at all surprised it is difficult. Something that was
:10:40. > :10:44.largely missing in the introduction, as I heard it, is this wasn't the
:10:44. > :10:47.military acting spontaneously. This was the military acting in response
:10:47. > :10:51.to some eight million people, not just in Cairo, but all over the
:10:52. > :10:55.country, protesting against what they saw as both the incompetence
:10:56. > :10:58.and the dictatorial character. Paul Wolfowitz, he was
:10:58. > :11:04.democratically elected, he was democratically elected and there
:11:04. > :11:07.are a lot more than eight million people in Egypt. Is that a
:11:07. > :11:12.legitimate thing for the military to do simply because of protest?
:11:12. > :11:17.I'm not saying it is legitimate, if you let me finish. These people
:11:17. > :11:22.were protesting what they saw as an abuse of democratic power by the
:11:22. > :11:26.Morsi Government and an inclination of going back to dictatorship,
:11:26. > :11:30.elected dictatorship. That is not what they want either. No-one can
:11:30. > :11:33.govern Egypt successfully unless they find a way to do it
:11:33. > :11:37.inclusively. The military certainly can't. I would be surprised if the
:11:37. > :11:40.military thinks they are capable of governing Egypt when these forces
:11:40. > :11:46.are let loose. They better figure out very quickly how to step back
:11:46. > :11:50.and build some kind of Government that enjoys broader legitimacy.
:11:50. > :11:53.Either than Mubarak or than Morsi. On that question, do you think that
:11:53. > :11:58.the Muslim Brotherhood has a role to play, or is it just that you
:11:58. > :12:03.don't want them to play a dominant role. If in the ballot box next
:12:03. > :12:05.time round they are elected to run the Government, is that
:12:05. > :12:10.illegitimate, Paul Wolfowitz? think the Muslim Brotherhood has
:12:10. > :12:14.got to be part of the process, I also believe that getting a 51%
:12:14. > :12:17.majority in a democracy doesn't mean you can then go and do
:12:17. > :12:21.whatever you want to do. Certainly that is not your view in England,
:12:22. > :12:25.it is not our view in the United States, I don't believe it is the
:12:25. > :12:29.view in Egypt. It is not completely clear why eight million people
:12:30. > :12:33.turned out. But I certainly believe it was clear that they felt this
:12:33. > :12:38.Government didn't share their priorities for the country. Bernard
:12:38. > :12:43.Kouchner, what should the European powers do. This essentially was a
:12:43. > :12:49.military coup, why will Europe not just call it what it was, a
:12:49. > :12:53.military coup? Technically it was a military coup. But I remember when
:12:53. > :12:59.during the first round and the second round, the Algerians decided
:12:59. > :13:03.to suppress the second round because the first round was in
:13:03. > :13:10.favour of the Islamists. Were they right? Were we right to support
:13:10. > :13:13.that? I doubt it. Honestly I doubt it. We will see, because the
:13:13. > :13:19.Egyptian soldiers, they promised us, they promised to the Egyptian
:13:19. > :13:27.people to set up a sort of coming back to the ballots and elections
:13:27. > :13:33.in a very short time. We will see. Secondly, they were in power, the
:13:33. > :13:40.Egyptian soldiers were, with Mubarak and with Saddad, and in
:13:40. > :13:43.power for 25 years, were they better? I doubt it. After we will
:13:43. > :13:47.see. Paul Wolfowitz, the problem for America is if you call it a
:13:47. > :13:57.military coup, you cannot, by the constitution, give Egypt military
:13:57. > :14:02.
:14:03. > :14:09.aid, can you? Let Paul Wolfowitz answer. Give me one second, as the
:14:09. > :14:14.problem for America, you cannot give Egypt military aid at this
:14:14. > :14:18.time It depends on what you call this, that language was put in law
:14:18. > :14:22.when you had the case in Latin America with the military stepping
:14:22. > :14:25.in without popular backing and removing civilian Governments. I
:14:26. > :14:28.don't know of the phenomenon. It is unprecedented to have eight million
:14:28. > :14:34.civilians out in the streets peacefully demonstrating and then
:14:34. > :14:37.the military steps in. If they try to keep control and keep power then
:14:37. > :14:43.certainly it will be considered a coup. But I believe that the view
:14:43. > :14:47.is, from the Obama administration to give them some time to see if
:14:47. > :14:50.they are serious about the promise of restoring democracy. That is the
:14:50. > :14:57.essential thing right now to move forward. Is a military state
:14:57. > :15:01.preferable to a Government run by the mob? Well, we will see. But
:15:01. > :15:04.there is no other way that what Paul said, of course you have to
:15:04. > :15:09.wait. Certainly to help the people there. But not only to help the
:15:09. > :15:16.military people, but to help the civilian people, to train them. I
:15:16. > :15:21.mean, it was impossible. But remember Muslim Brotherhood is one
:15:21. > :15:26.in four of the population, among the Egyptian population. One in
:15:26. > :15:30.four people is part of the Muslim Brotherhood. They were the only
:15:30. > :15:34.organised force. So we have to count with them. We cannot just
:15:34. > :15:41.reject them because of this big demonstration. We have to teach
:15:41. > :15:48.them, if it is possible, or they have to learn or invent a sort of
:15:48. > :15:51.fraternity inbetween the citizens, we will see, we will see.
:15:51. > :15:56.There has to be compromise going forward. Thank you very much both
:15:56. > :16:01.of you. Old Labour politics, like a dinosaur waking up from a long
:16:01. > :16:05.sleep have roared back to life in the selection process in Falkirk to
:16:06. > :16:11.replace the present MP, Eric Joyce. Allegations of a union stitch-up
:16:11. > :16:17.for the seat fell at Labour's deputy Tom Watson, who left the
:16:17. > :16:22.post and Shadow Cabinet. After an internal inquiry, Karie Murphy, the
:16:22. > :16:25.office manager and Unite's favoured candidate was suspended from the
:16:25. > :16:29.Falkirk Labour Party by Ed Miliband, as was the constituency chairman.
:16:29. > :16:32.The Conservatives have jumped on the controversy, their Party
:16:32. > :16:42.Chairman claiming Ed Miliband is not in control of his party. This
:16:42. > :16:57.
:16:57. > :17:02.At 463 words this was the longest of Tom Watson's three resignation
:17:02. > :17:09.letters written in just seven years. Its length is perhaps apt. This
:17:09. > :17:14.might be the biggest of any mess he has left behind. The Scottish seat
:17:14. > :17:17.of Falkirk is the cause of this latest and possibly last Tom Watson
:17:17. > :17:23.resignation. As Labour's general election co-ordinator, he had been
:17:23. > :17:27.implicated in a nasty Fight about the union, Unite's role, in who
:17:27. > :17:35.should be Labour's candidate here. This week the Tories used the
:17:35. > :17:38.Falkirk row to ask the question who runs Labour? Ed Miliband other the
:17:38. > :17:42.unions. With the general election co-ordinator for Labour walking out
:17:42. > :17:46.with just two years to go to that general election, and this despite
:17:46. > :17:52.Ed Miliband pleading with Tom Watson to stay, it looks like Ed
:17:52. > :17:58.Miliband does run the Labour Party, it is just that at times today it
:17:58. > :18:02.has not been a very firm grip. After the departure of Eric Joyce,
:18:02. > :18:07.The Dark Knight union is accused of holding the selection for his
:18:07. > :18:11.replacement in a very firm Europe that Unite packed its members on to
:18:11. > :18:15.the local Labour Party list, to ensure their preferred candidate,
:18:15. > :18:19.Karie Murphy, won it. Both because of Tom Watson's responsibility for
:18:19. > :18:22.election candidates, and because candidate, Karie Murphy, was also
:18:22. > :18:25.Tom Watson's office manager, he came under pressure. Trade unions
:18:25. > :18:29.that support their members and the work place are an important part of
:18:29. > :18:33.our society, but they can't bully and get their way within the Labour
:18:33. > :18:37.Party. It seems what has happened in Falkirk is Unite have
:18:37. > :18:42.overstepped the mark, they should remember that Ed Miliband runs the
:18:42. > :18:47.Labour Party, not Unite. Labour HQ had taken action, they took control
:18:47. > :18:53.of the selection process away from Falkirk. But Falkirk had already
:18:53. > :19:01.become a fault line for the Labour Party. Behind the scenes Blairites
:19:01. > :19:05.like Jim Murphy were overtly pitched back into battle against
:19:05. > :19:10.the Brownites. His resignation and this line, referring to his
:19:10. > :19:20.departure from Blair's Government, he makes the Blairite Brownite
:19:20. > :19:26.
:19:26. > :19:30.This afternoon Falkirk Party Chairman, Stephen Deans, and Karie
:19:30. > :19:34.Murphy were suspended. A bold move by the Labour leader. He also
:19:34. > :19:39.suspended the scheme which allows unions, like Unite, to sign members
:19:39. > :19:43.up to the Labour Party and pay fees on their behalf.
:19:43. > :19:48.Waton and others from across the union movement want Labour's report
:19:48. > :19:53.into Falkirk to be published. Many sources privately say that the
:19:53. > :20:03.truth might not be as ugly. Len McCluskey, Unite's leader is
:20:03. > :20:11.
:20:11. > :20:18.The Conservatives want to use this row to paint Ed Miliband as a man
:20:18. > :20:21.thoroughly in the pockets of the unions. The Red Ed was his earlier
:20:21. > :20:26.days as leader. The Labour Party want something completely different.
:20:26. > :20:30.They want the row with The Dark Knight union to be so vivid and
:20:30. > :20:35.technicolor that Ed Miliband clearly stands -- with Unite union
:20:35. > :20:41.to be so vivid and in technicolor that Ed Miliband clearly stands as
:20:41. > :20:46.separate from his backers. Tom Watson wrote a back about the
:20:46. > :20:49.hacking scandal, and Labour now have to restore cleanliness and
:20:49. > :20:54.credibility to their general election strategy if they are to
:20:54. > :20:58.dial M for majority. Angela Eagle, a member of Ed
:20:58. > :21:02.Miliband's Shadow Cabinet is here. An extraordinary attack by Len
:21:02. > :21:07.McCluskey of Unite, it is a stitch- up, you are trying to smear Unite
:21:07. > :21:11.and its members, incendiary language, is he right? Of course
:21:11. > :21:16.not. This is, he's telling lies, this is not happening? Don't put
:21:16. > :21:21.words in my mouth. The issue here is about what's been going on in
:21:21. > :21:25.Falkirk which has led to the suspension of that process because
:21:25. > :21:33.of irregularities with the membership. And we have been open
:21:33. > :21:35.about all of that. We are now looking at it more closely. The
:21:35. > :21:40.general election secretary and the leader of the Labour Party will
:21:40. > :21:48.take action as a result of what's been going on in Falkirk. Let's be
:21:48. > :21:51.quite clear. Unite, �8.5 million for the party. �115,000 for Ed
:21:52. > :21:56.Miliband's campaign. You have had �14,000 for your constituency.
:21:56. > :21:59.Unite has the whip hand. You can't afford to have a fight with Unite?
:21:59. > :22:04.Of course they don't have the whip hand. They are an affiliated trade
:22:04. > :22:07.union with the party. I have to say we support the trade union link in
:22:07. > :22:11.the Labour Party. We're proud of our connection to millions of
:22:11. > :22:17.ordinary working people up and down the country. Let's not mix things
:22:17. > :22:22.up. But being proud of our trade union links doesn't mean that we
:22:22. > :22:25.can tolerate what went on in Falkirk. What we have to do, what
:22:25. > :22:29.the leader of the Labour Party has been doing today is demonstrating
:22:29. > :22:34.that we have to ensure that our parliamentary selections are fair
:22:34. > :22:36.and transparent with integrity, and we have to look after the Labour
:22:37. > :22:41.Party's rules. And the integrity of the Labour Party rules. That is
:22:41. > :22:45.what we are doing. You heard what Jim Murphy said there, he was in
:22:45. > :22:49.turn attacked by Unite's Len McCluskey for saying it is not
:22:49. > :22:54.worthy that the members of the Shadow Cabinet in initiating that
:22:54. > :22:58.attack upon Unite, that is people like Jim Murphy. Do you agree with
:22:58. > :23:03.what Jim Murphy said, we can't have the bullying stuff, unions
:23:03. > :23:07.overstepping the mark and Unite overstepping the mark? We can't
:23:07. > :23:11.have anyone, an affiliate or individual member of the Labour
:23:11. > :23:13.Party disregarding the Labour Party rules when it comes to
:23:13. > :23:17.parliamentary selections or anything else, it is for the leader
:23:17. > :23:22.of the Labour Party who has taken firm and decisive action today to
:23:22. > :23:26.protect the integrity of the Labour Party rules. Tom Watson said he
:23:26. > :23:30.decided it was time for him to resign. But Newsnight has spoken to
:23:30. > :23:34.Ed Miliband's office and Ed Miliband's office said they made
:23:34. > :23:38.the call on Tom Watson, did he resign, or did Ed Miliband tell him
:23:38. > :23:44.he had to go? My understanding is he talked to Ed Miliband earlier in
:23:44. > :23:50.the week saying he wished to go. Ed told him he wanted to think about
:23:50. > :23:56.it and not do something in the spur of the moment. Ed phoned him today
:23:56. > :24:00.and they had the discussion and the letters were issued. So this, not
:24:00. > :24:05.this is very important. It is about the leadership of the Labour Party
:24:05. > :24:09.here. Funnily enough Tom Watson, you know, in his letter praised Ed
:24:09. > :24:12.Miliband for being a bit like Buddha. But maybe he's just
:24:12. > :24:16.meditating a bit too long isn't he. He doesn't seem to be able to make
:24:16. > :24:20.up his mind? You can't have it both ways, one moment you are saying
:24:20. > :24:27.he's not decisive enough and the next moment too decisive. Look he
:24:27. > :24:32.has acted decisively and swiftly to deal with...We Don't actually
:24:32. > :24:38.know...Kirsty Let me finish. He has acted decisively and swiftly to
:24:38. > :24:42.deal with what is going on in Falkirk which is unacceptable and
:24:42. > :24:45.protect the integrity of Labour Party selection proceed proceedings
:24:45. > :24:51.and rules. If Len McCluskey -- procedures and rules. If cles cles
:24:51. > :24:57.cles has the same duty to act to protect the ining at the -- Len
:24:57. > :25:02.McCluskey has the same duty to act to protect the integrity of his
:25:02. > :25:06.union's rules we have to protect our rules. It is clear there was a
:25:06. > :25:09.conversation between Ed Miliband and Tom Watson about his resigning?
:25:09. > :25:12.Earlier. Then there was another conversation, it doesn't sound like
:25:12. > :25:17.Ed Miliband was making a decisive call over something that clearly he
:25:17. > :25:22.thinks is a problem for the party in Falkirk? I think that if you
:25:22. > :25:28.look at what happened with the suspension of the Falkirk selection
:25:28. > :25:33.procedure, with the ending of the union join scheme and with the
:25:33. > :25:38.suspension of the individuals who have been accused of malpractice
:25:38. > :25:42.with respect to the union rules, that is decisive action. We have
:25:42. > :25:46.seen that from our leader today. Len McCluskey, we asked him on the
:25:46. > :25:50.programme and he wouldn't come on tonight. He's calling for another
:25:50. > :25:55.inquiry, an independent one into what went on. Should he get that.
:25:55. > :25:59.After all, he is your biggest backer? No, it is up to the leader
:25:59. > :26:04.of the Labour Party, working with our General Secretary, to he d side
:26:04. > :26:09.how we put our rules into effect. Len McCluskey can have an opinion,
:26:09. > :26:13.but it is not his job to decide how to act. Today we have acted to
:26:13. > :26:16.protect the integrity of our Labour Party rules. That is a clear
:26:16. > :26:22.message to Len McCluskey, there will be no independent inquiry,
:26:22. > :26:26.there are 41-backed Unite candidates in the Labour Party,
:26:26. > :26:29.these are Unite candidates not Labour Party candidates? This is
:26:29. > :26:32.ridiculous and I'm surprised to hear it coming from you. There are
:26:32. > :26:35.many people who are members of the trade unions in the party, just
:26:35. > :26:42.because one is a member of the trade union doesn't mean you are
:26:42. > :26:49.some sort of automatic yum, I'm a member of -- automate tum, I'm a
:26:49. > :26:51.member of the trait unions as as the party was created to look after
:26:51. > :26:55.the interests of millions of working people up and down the
:26:55. > :26:59.country, who are op proseed by the bad economic policies of this
:26:59. > :27:07.Government. It keeps us in touch with reality and ordinary people.
:27:07. > :27:11.We are proud of our trade union links. 20 years ago this year two
:27:11. > :27:15.boys aged just ten were convicted of the murder of the toddler James
:27:15. > :27:21.Bulger. It was shocking and disturbing. Jon Venables was
:27:21. > :27:27.released from prison in 2001 aged 17 and given a new identity. Three
:27:27. > :27:31.years later he was re-arrested and found guilty of distributing dozens
:27:31. > :27:36.of child pornography on his computer. Two years ago he was
:27:36. > :27:39.denied parole, today the parole board has decided he should be
:27:39. > :27:42.released. James Bulger's mother and father believe this is the wrong
:27:42. > :27:49.decision. We are joined from Liverpool by a solicitor. First of
:27:49. > :27:55.all, what was the argument made by James Bulger's parents against the
:27:55. > :27:58.granting of parole today? Well we had the opportunity to make a
:27:58. > :28:05.statement to the Parole Board in May. One of the things of concern
:28:05. > :28:12.was the fact that two years ago the Parole Board considered that Jon
:28:12. > :28:17.Venables was not fit to be released, so what has changed. He was
:28:17. > :28:24.convicted of a serious sex crime. He was unable to cope with life on
:28:24. > :28:29.the outside, the support was not adequate. And he is undoubtedly a
:28:29. > :28:34.potential danger to society. But more than that, there is a concern
:28:34. > :28:39.that if he is released, as is indicated he will be released, we
:28:39. > :28:45.have no idea on what basis, where he is going to live, how he is
:28:45. > :28:51.going to be supervised. Innocent people have in the past been
:28:51. > :28:58.mistaken for him and there is a fear that he, that some innocent
:28:58. > :29:02.person will be injured or even killed. But is that an argument for
:29:02. > :29:06.saying Jon Venables cannot be rehabilitated? The counter argument
:29:07. > :29:11.is that the parole was turned down two years ago, the Parole Board now
:29:12. > :29:20.feel there is sufficient ground to suggest that he can operate outside
:29:20. > :29:25.within society. It would be more reassures to know on what basis
:29:25. > :29:29.they have come to that conclusion. From the point of view of raffle
:29:29. > :29:34.Bulger and his family, we haven't been -- Ralph Bulger and his family,
:29:34. > :29:37.we haven't been told anything. Last time Jon Venables was released, I'm
:29:37. > :29:41.right in saying you did have perameters, you did know something
:29:41. > :29:45.of the circumstances of his release and what the boundaries would be.
:29:45. > :29:53.Is it your understanding that would happen this time? My understanding
:29:53. > :29:56.that under the Code of Practise for victims there is supposed to be
:29:56. > :30:00.consultation on the conditions of parole, for example where the
:30:00. > :30:07.offender is going to live. This time there has been no consultation,
:30:07. > :30:12.we have been told nothing about the conditions of residence. Last time
:30:12. > :30:14.Jon Venables was placed to Cheshire, adjacent to Merseyside, and
:30:14. > :30:22.breaches those conditions on a number of occasions entering
:30:22. > :30:25.Merseyside. We do not know where he will be placed. If which can -- if
:30:25. > :30:28.we can turn briefly to Robert Thompson, what is your
:30:28. > :30:32.understanding of his position? There is an injunction by which
:30:32. > :30:38.nothing can be said about his where abouts, or his identity. But he is
:30:38. > :30:44.on the outside. Assuming he is on the outside, we assume that he is
:30:44. > :30:50.on the outside living a life in the community as a law-abiding citizen?
:30:50. > :30:56.Well we know nothing. What we do know in the case of Jon Venables is
:30:56. > :30:59.that the significant breach of his license conditions there were, and
:30:59. > :31:04.some criminality. It was only when matters became so serious that the
:31:04. > :31:09.authorities recalled him to custody. Do you think though that your
:31:09. > :31:14.clients object to this now and have made their views clear to the
:31:14. > :31:18.Parole Board, is that, do you think, a lifelong objection. That the
:31:18. > :31:21.assumption, that the assumption you are making that Jon Venables, in
:31:21. > :31:29.your clients' view will never be in a position to live on the outside?
:31:29. > :31:34.I think one has to look at the practicalities of this. When Jon
:31:34. > :31:40.Venables was released back into society, he was 17-18 years old.
:31:40. > :31:45.And he was able to create a new identity and live that, live a new
:31:45. > :31:53.life. Unfortunately unsuccessfully. He's now 30 and a lot of water has
:31:53. > :31:58.passed under the bridge. He has had a corrupting episode in his life,
:31:58. > :32:02.committing serious sex offences, and how easy is it for him to
:32:02. > :32:12.create presumably another new idea toe and live a further life. So it
:32:12. > :32:16.
:32:16. > :32:21.is a highly risky strategy. Thank you very much. Still to come:
:32:21. > :32:25.We will be serving up an interview with Catalan chef, Ferran Adria.
:32:25. > :32:27.The best days of your life, that is the cliche, but there seems to be
:32:27. > :32:32.growing evidence that large numbers of young people are suffering from
:32:32. > :32:38.mental health problems. Tomorrow a new charity, Mindful, launches an
:32:38. > :32:41.on-line counselling support service for young people. The launch
:32:41. > :32:45.coincides with a survey that suggests one child in five has
:32:45. > :32:48.symptoms of depression, and almost a third have thought about or
:32:48. > :32:52.attempted suicide before they were 16. In a moment we will hear from
:32:52. > :32:57.the clinical psychologyist, Tanya Byron. Through young people tell us
:32:57. > :33:00.first what it is like to suffer with mental health problems.
:33:00. > :33:06.From a very young age I was always worrying, scared about things that
:33:06. > :33:09.you shouldn't really be scared about. When I was aged 11 I had
:33:09. > :33:15.what is known in the health service as a mental health crisis. I missed
:33:15. > :33:23.months of school, I couldn't leave the house, I was fiefg five-to-six
:33:23. > :33:27.panic attacks a day -- five-to-six panics attacks a day I was having.
:33:27. > :33:31.It is a numbness in your hands and feet, shaking, not being able to
:33:31. > :33:34.breathe, not being able to think about anything apart from what you
:33:34. > :33:41.are worrying about. You can make up one morning and feel fine and then
:33:41. > :33:46.later on that day have a pank attack and -- a panic attack, and
:33:46. > :33:52.have no idea why. Your heart feels like it is going to burst out of
:33:52. > :33:56.your chest and it is painful. When I'm having an intense period of
:33:56. > :34:02.anxiety it can be as many as five and six attacks a day. It is,
:34:02. > :34:07.shausing. I didn't want to put -- exhausting, I didn't want to put
:34:07. > :34:14.pressure on my parents, I kept it to myself, I felt I had dealt with
:34:14. > :34:18.it my whole life and I can deal with it a bit more.
:34:18. > :34:21.When I was 14 I thought I might actually commit suicide. There is a
:34:21. > :34:28.difference between considering the idea and then actually thinking,
:34:28. > :34:36.how you would plan and how you would go about committing suicide.
:34:36. > :34:40.You can't tell if something is hor moans -- hormones or mental illness.
:34:40. > :34:45.I had that thought in my mind, is this normal. Then it gets to the
:34:45. > :34:49.point of looking at sharp objects and thinking of how you would kill
:34:49. > :34:58.yourself with it, you realise that is much more serious because I
:34:58. > :35:02.don't think that is something most teenagers would do.
:35:02. > :35:08.For me things started to change when I was around 14, 15, the
:35:08. > :35:13.pressure of exams and GCSEs came. I wouldn't see my friend, I wouldn't
:35:13. > :35:23.be as open, or speak to anyone. I would come back from school and sit
:35:23. > :35:25.
:35:25. > :35:29.up in my room for hours upon end. Every day I would wake up and
:35:29. > :35:33.headaches would be there, it was like a vice gripping my head, I
:35:33. > :35:37.didn't want to get out of bed because they were so painful. Then
:35:37. > :35:42.I found myself having nosebleeds two or three times a week, then my
:35:42. > :35:45.hands started shaking. I thought I would die because I was looking at
:35:45. > :35:48.the symptoms on Google and I convinced myself I had medical
:35:48. > :35:53.problems. I thought I had a brain tumour, I didn't tell anyone for
:35:53. > :35:56.weeks upon weeks, and eventually it all got a bit too much. I came home
:35:56. > :36:00.from school early because I couldn't face the afternoon's
:36:00. > :36:03.lessons, I just sat in my room and burst out crying of my parents were
:36:03. > :36:08.going through a lot of things at the time, my mum's health wasn't
:36:09. > :36:18.great. I saw them struggling and I didn't want to have to go and whack
:36:19. > :36:21.
:36:21. > :36:24.another 10% on top of what they had. A lot of the way through primary
:36:24. > :36:28.school I was bull and secondary school as well. That took a big
:36:28. > :36:33.effect on the way I behaved, the way I interacted with people and
:36:33. > :36:37.just generally how I felt about myself. I let it build up. To the
:36:37. > :36:40.extent that I was having headaches, nosebleeds, panic attacks. I
:36:40. > :36:44.wouldn't want to go outside, I would want to come home from school,
:36:44. > :36:49.sit in my house, do what I do. On the weekends I wouldn't even want
:36:49. > :36:53.to go shopping with my family. I think it is a massive problem. We
:36:53. > :36:56.are not told it is OK to talk about mental health. That is the hardest
:36:56. > :37:00.part when you are going through something like that, it is not
:37:00. > :37:05.going through what you are going through but finding a way to stop
:37:05. > :37:10.it and finding a way to talk about it. It is a big step that
:37:10. > :37:13.youngsters of this generation are finding out that it is OK to talk
:37:13. > :37:18.about problems. It is intervention when you are younger and stopping
:37:18. > :37:22.your problems to stop them getting into something greater when you are
:37:22. > :37:27.older. Most days I just stay in bed and listen to music, I don't go out,
:37:27. > :37:31.I don't really socialise or do any work. I just either read or listen
:37:31. > :37:37.to music, because the effect it has on your ability to work, to
:37:37. > :37:40.consentrate, to focus, to persevere is enormous.
:37:40. > :37:44.I get really infuriated when people say just get yourself together,
:37:44. > :37:46.because I don't think they realise quite how serious it is, and quite
:37:46. > :37:52.how difficult it is to pick yourself up from that. You can't do
:37:52. > :38:02.it by yourself. You need help. you want more information or help
:38:02. > :38:09.go to the website. With me now is the child and
:38:09. > :38:13.addless sant clinical psyche -- adolescent psychologist, Tanya
:38:13. > :38:18.Byron. What your Mindful survey suggests is we are failing to Mick
:38:19. > :38:22.up on a lot of mental health issues amongst teenagers? I want to start
:38:22. > :38:25.by saying this is about prevention, not increasing numbers or
:38:25. > :38:28.medicalising children. This is about getting in early to offer
:38:28. > :38:33.support to children before they develop problems that become
:38:33. > :38:40.chronic. I work in child mental health service, I and my colleagues
:38:40. > :38:45.know we get children that have a level of impact that is so much
:38:45. > :38:53.bigger, cuts in services to child and young adult mental health
:38:53. > :38:56.services the cuts mean that as LSE told us in their latest survey that
:38:56. > :39:00.three-quarters of children that need mental health services aren't
:39:00. > :39:03.getting it. One of the arguments is being a young adult is tough, and
:39:03. > :39:07.there is a lot of external forces going on, there is the social
:39:07. > :39:11.context, what is happening in the school, but actually they have a
:39:11. > :39:15.huge impact on how a child feels. We have just heard with bullying,
:39:15. > :39:19.it is not always the child has a mental health issue, it is that the
:39:19. > :39:26.circumstances are such that lead to real anxieties and really problems?
:39:27. > :39:30.Exactly, I couldn't have put it better myself. This is why Mindfull
:39:30. > :39:34.is such a brilliant charity, I'm proud to be the President. We want
:39:34. > :39:38.to take peer mentoring into schools, we train children and young people
:39:38. > :39:42.to offer support and advice to other children and young people who
:39:42. > :39:47.are struggling with sometimes the everyday difficult realities of
:39:47. > :39:53.tkwroing up, of the transition into adulthood. By getting in early we
:39:53. > :39:57.are preventing it in the population but adult mental health problems.
:39:57. > :40:01.Is there an issue that you perhaps label teenagers with particular
:40:01. > :40:05.issues, and particular problems that are almost a self-fulfiling
:40:05. > :40:10.prophesy. I don't mean that generally but in individual cases?
:40:10. > :40:12.That is precisely what we are trying to stop happening. We don't
:40:12. > :40:17.want these children to become so chronic that they will be labelled
:40:17. > :40:22.and get a diagnosis. If you have a peer mental support system, young
:40:22. > :40:27.people who can support each other and can offer resources and on-line
:40:27. > :40:31.counselling, we can stop situations developing into full-blown mental
:40:31. > :40:36.health problems. When you see peer mentoring, this will require huge
:40:36. > :40:42.resores, you say the wait -- resource, you say the waiting lists
:40:42. > :40:50.are huge, huge resors for every child that needs it, consistent and
:40:50. > :40:55.reliable help. Because the danger is that you can't do everything
:40:55. > :40:58.that, sometimes in itself can cause more damage? We are not doing
:40:58. > :41:03.enough. We are looking at how to enable young people using social
:41:03. > :41:07.media, who say in very clearly in tonnes of research that peer
:41:07. > :41:10.mentoring and social media support is what young people value. Face-
:41:10. > :41:14.to-face consultation is very threatening, on-line therapy is a
:41:14. > :41:20.good way to start for people. line they werey has to be
:41:20. > :41:24.consistent and reliable. The danger with on-line therapy that you end
:41:24. > :41:28.up making a diagnosis on-line? are supported by Cabinet Office and
:41:28. > :41:32.a number of third sector agencies, we have a huge amount of resourcing,
:41:32. > :41:37.our therapists are trained therapists and counsellors, we do
:41:37. > :41:40.everything not to diagnose children but to enable them and empower them
:41:40. > :41:45.to manage their own mental health safely. In a world of celebrity
:41:45. > :41:50.chefs, he's a stand-out star with three michelin stars next to his
:41:50. > :41:58.name, a testament to his hard work, stant talent and originalty. His
:41:58. > :42:03.restaurant El Bulli was voted best restaurant five times. He's the
:42:03. > :42:08.first chef to have an exhibition at Somerset House in London, dedicated
:42:08. > :42:18.to his life and work. It opens tomorrow but today he gave me an
:42:18. > :42:20.
:42:20. > :42:26.exclusive television interview. Very few of us will have
:42:26. > :42:30.experienced El Bulli, but at Somerset House the story of the
:42:30. > :42:35.restaurant and the chef that brought it into being is laid out,
:42:35. > :42:40.course by course, from liquid nitrogen to the foam and the shabby
:42:40. > :42:47.chairs from the restaurant itself. The deck cor not changed in 40
:42:47. > :42:52.years. Is -- -- decor not changed in 40 years. Is it about art or
:42:52. > :42:59.cooking? I cook.TRANSLATION: Cooking is cooking, it is true
:42:59. > :43:03.there is a type of cuisine that as an experience can be. T yi, pico?
:43:03. > :43:09.TRANSLATION: No an avant-garde cuisine, similar to painting and
:43:09. > :43:16.music. El Bulli was avant-garde. Are you flattered that people use
:43:16. > :43:20.some of the things that you used, lick gid nitrogen, all sorts of --
:43:20. > :43:24.liquid nitroagain, all sorts of things. You were the lead -- knit
:43:24. > :43:34.tro again, all sorts of things, you were the leader? We, but what we
:43:34. > :43:36.
:43:36. > :43:42.were leaders in was thinking. What we did was not about the lick gid
:43:42. > :43:47.nitrogen, but we opened thousands of -- liquid nitrogen, but we
:43:47. > :43:53.opened thousands of people's minds to different things. How important
:43:53. > :43:57.was the atmosphere and Catalan to what you do? What Catalan for me is
:43:57. > :44:01.the feeling, the sea, the sun, Barcelona. That is what is
:44:01. > :44:08.important. The produce is not important, products are global, the
:44:08. > :44:13.tomatoes from the Americas, it is the feeling. Take shoe shi, I --
:44:13. > :44:16.sushi, I can make sushi, but the feeling about it would always be
:44:16. > :44:26.Catalan. How much do you feel the economic problems of Spain. How
:44:26. > :44:27.
:44:27. > :44:32.much does it effect you? TRANSLATION: It is a problem of the
:44:33. > :44:36.system, not a problem of the people. The people are wonderful: Spanish
:44:36. > :44:41.youth are trying, the system has failed. But this has not only
:44:42. > :44:45.happened in Spain, Spain is the apex of the problem. Unfortunately,
:44:45. > :44:54.if things don't change elsewhere we are going to see the same thing in
:44:54. > :44:57.other countries. But now, El Bulli will change to be something
:44:57. > :45:03.different. Is that because you want to pass things on, is that because
:45:03. > :45:13.you want young chefs to follow, men and women, to build a tradition
:45:13. > :45:16.
:45:16. > :45:20.like yours? The foundation is freedom. TRANSLATION:We want to
:45:20. > :45:25.help cusine to continue evolving, we want to make people think and
:45:25. > :45:28.reflect about creativity. At the restaurant we are developing
:45:28. > :45:36.creativity using cusine as a language. If there is one
:45:36. > :45:40.ingredient that you like to eat, what is it? TRANSLATION: Salt! It
:45:40. > :45:45.is the most important ingredient in the world. It is the only product
:45:45. > :45:50.that changes a dish, it totally changes the dish. Without salt the
:45:50. > :45:59.dish is something else. Caviar is fantastic, lobster, the truffle,
:45:59. > :46:04.but nothing major happens if there is no truffle, salt changes a dish.
:46:04. > :46:14.Salt, thank goodness then that in the fresh tomato sauce I have
:46:14. > :46:17.
:46:17. > :46:27.prepared for Ferran Adria there was some very special salt.
:46:27. > :47:01.
:47:01. > :47:11.(speaks in Spanish) Perfecto. That's funny. Fantastico.Tomorrow
:47:11. > :47:24.
:47:24. > :47:30.We leave you with a classic track from the Nolan sisters following
:47:30. > :47:35.the news today that Bernie Nolan has died, she was aged 52.
:47:35. > :47:38.# I can't stop dancing # So move your feet babe
:47:38. > :47:42.# Because honey when I get up # I go to you
:47:42. > :47:47.# I'm in the mood # For dancing
:47:47. > :47:49.# Romaning # You know I shan't ever stop
:47:49. > :47:59.tonight # I'm in the mood
:47:59. > :48:03.
:48:03. > :48:08.High summer is arriving, and with it some fairly high temperatures
:48:08. > :48:12.over the next few days. A God day in prospect for most of the -- a
:48:12. > :48:16.good day in prospect for most of England and Wales. Any showers will
:48:16. > :48:19.fade away. By the afternoon most of us will be dry, some sunshine
:48:19. > :48:22.across the east of Northern Ireland, that will do bonders for the
:48:22. > :48:28.temperatures, cloudier across the west and Scotland. More eastern
:48:28. > :48:34.areas seeing the lion's share of the sunshine. Temperatures at 4.00
:48:34. > :48:39.pm, and for a God part the afternoon low-to-mid-20s.
:48:39. > :48:43.Strong sunshine. Be aware. Around the coastal fringe cooler with the
:48:43. > :48:47.breeze coming off the sea. Mist from the coast of east Kent and
:48:47. > :48:50.Sussex. Across the south west of England. Although there may be
:48:50. > :48:54.broken cloud at times we should see sunshine. Inland temperatures
:48:54. > :48:59.should get up into the mid-20s in quit a few locations. A sunny end
:48:59. > :49:02.to the week, the weekend is shaping up well too. Across northern areas
:49:02. > :49:06.on Saturday a weather front pushing in across Northern Ireland and
:49:06. > :49:09.Scotland. Some showery rain here, although it should clear through by
:49:09. > :49:12.Sunday. Further south across the UK we are set fair with a lot of
:49:12. > :49:16.sunshine and temperatures will be on the rise day by day. So this is