:00:35. > :00:38.supports the army, but the square below me belongs to tens of
:00:38. > :00:44.thousands of Muslim Brotherhood supporters.
:00:44. > :00:49.We will try to find out with the help of both sides. And then this.
:00:49. > :00:57.She means the world to me, I would do anything for her. The called
:00:57. > :01:01.bedroom tax may look a pret -- a pretty straight forward hit at
:01:01. > :01:04.benefits issues, but the reality may be more complex. If I turn
:01:04. > :01:09.around and say to her you can't come over any more because we have
:01:09. > :01:13.to move to a one-bedroom place, she would be devastated and maybe push
:01:13. > :01:23.her away. Ed Miliband has let it be known that he has a speech in his
:01:23. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:28.back pocket the unions may not like much, we will take a peek. Last
:01:28. > :01:32.week it underwent a military coup, tonight the most important country
:01:32. > :01:36.in the Arab world may be on the brink of civil war. It may even be
:01:36. > :01:41.that what happened in Cairo at dawn today was the start of that war.
:01:41. > :01:45.Over 50 people were killed and over 400 wounded in an incident which
:01:46. > :01:50.supporters of deposed President Morsi are blaming on the army,
:01:50. > :01:57.which unseated him last week, and soldiers say was set off by
:01:57. > :02:05.terrorists. Let as first go to Cairo.
:02:05. > :02:08.I'm on the roof of a mosque, and below me is the camp of pro-Morsi
:02:08. > :02:12.supporters here in Cairo, thousands of gathering more through the
:02:12. > :02:16.course of the day. Roaring their defiance as you can hear. They have
:02:16. > :02:19.said they won't leave here until their President is reinstated or
:02:19. > :02:26.until they are forcibly dispersed. The road leading out of this square
:02:26. > :02:32.behind me is the road that leads to the presidential Guards Club, where
:02:32. > :02:34.more than 50 people were killed last night. Down that road today in
:02:34. > :02:39.successive waves Brotherhood supporters have tried to push. They
:02:39. > :02:43.have been pushed back by the army. Today they are using only teargas.
:02:43. > :02:48.If there has been less violence today, the rhetoric is really going
:02:48. > :02:52.up. Today for example the Brotherhood's main political party
:02:52. > :02:56.called specifically for an uprising and on the other side it is clear
:02:56. > :02:59.that the authorities are trying to pin the blame for last night's
:02:59. > :03:05.bloodshed squarely on the Brotherhood itself.S they closed
:03:06. > :03:10.down the offices of the Brotherhood's faert, Freedom of
:03:10. > :03:19.Justice, because they say guns were found inside it. It will be harder
:03:19. > :03:24.and harder to make any conclusion with Islamists, even the our
:03:24. > :03:28.Islamist party has withdrawn from talks from Government. Very hard to
:03:28. > :03:35.see how an interim Government of the kind that has left can be
:03:35. > :03:41.formed. Mark Urban here. Last Weir it was all Tahrir Square, Tim is in
:03:41. > :03:47.another square? The mosque he was talking about behind him, is part
:03:47. > :03:51.of the epicentre of it. All confined to a small area of eastern
:03:51. > :03:56.Cairo. There is the mosque where Tim was, street that runs north of
:03:56. > :04:02.there is the one he was referring to, up and down which there has
:04:02. > :04:08.been so much trouble. Up at the other end of it is the Republican
:04:08. > :04:12.Guard Officers' Club. When rumours went out late last week that ex-
:04:12. > :04:18.President Morsi had been detained in there, the protestors walked up
:04:18. > :04:24.the street and this is where the incidents where people were killed
:04:24. > :04:30.and Jeremy Bowen and others were hit with buck shot. The protestors
:04:30. > :04:35.were forced back down this street and before dawn the incident
:04:35. > :04:38.unfolded. The supporters said people were shot while at prayer,
:04:38. > :04:42.an emosive allegation, the army said they were attacked by
:04:42. > :04:47.terrorists. Independent people said they had seen plain clothes people,
:04:47. > :04:51.security men or hired thugs firing at the crowd. Pretty soon dozens of
:04:51. > :04:56.people had been hit, whoever started it was clear that these
:04:56. > :05:01.people were being carried back down the street, back to the Rabaa
:05:01. > :05:05.mosque, where they were being treated in a mix shift triage. How
:05:05. > :05:10.many people were hit all together? By lunchtime the Muslim Brotherhood
:05:10. > :05:15.was saying that 51 people had been killed in this incident. The
:05:15. > :05:20.Ambulance Service in Cairo were saying over 40, but the clashes
:05:20. > :05:25.went on the street throughout the afternoon. In fact, if we look at
:05:25. > :05:32.another place, almost a third of the way down the street, between
:05:32. > :05:38.the Officers' Club and the mosque, where it is circled, further
:05:38. > :05:41.incidents took place. This footage shots a member of the security
:05:41. > :05:47.shows a member of the security forces with a gun in his hand, you
:05:47. > :05:53.can see it jump in his hand. But down on the street you can see
:05:53. > :05:57.casualties being carried away. Both sides were agreed that more than 50
:05:58. > :06:01.were dead and 500 wounded. What are the political implications of all
:06:01. > :06:10.of this? It is all seen enormous, as the news of this was broking
:06:10. > :06:20.this morning, people were talking about civil war. The all near party
:06:20. > :06:26.had gone along -- the All Noor party had gone along with it, they
:06:26. > :06:30.are Salafists, they withdrew today. The Brotherhood were calling for an
:06:30. > :06:33.uprising. This evening we saw the army briefing bringing outlines
:06:33. > :06:36.about the return to democracy. Trying to ride the tide of popular
:06:36. > :06:40.feeling and get the situation back under control. The version they
:06:40. > :06:44.briefed out, this is not confirmed, is that within two weeks a panel
:06:44. > :06:48.will sit down to try to rewrite the constitution, we have been here
:06:48. > :06:54.before. In four months the new constitution will be voted upon by
:06:54. > :06:57.a referendum of the people. Two weeks after that parliamentary
:06:57. > :07:06.election and another two weeks presidential elections. That is the
:07:06. > :07:10.version they are giving out to keep a lid on this. In Tahrir Square is
:07:10. > :07:15.Egypt's deputy Culture Minister when Morsi came to power last
:07:15. > :07:20.August. We hope to be joined by a spokesman for the Muslim
:07:20. > :07:30.Brotherhood. But let me speak to you first in
:07:30. > :07:31.
:07:31. > :07:41.Tahrir Square. Does this begin to look like civil war to you? It is
:07:41. > :07:45.
:07:45. > :07:51.definitely not civil war. The civilians and liberals are seeing
:07:51. > :07:55.it as terrorism, with an uprising with the lowest head count of 17
:07:55. > :07:58.million going on to the streets. And the highest head count is 33
:07:58. > :08:02.million. If something like that happens in the UK it suggests that
:08:03. > :08:07.David Cameron will step down immediately. It does make you
:08:07. > :08:15.wonder, when you have shots being exchanged between different
:08:15. > :08:20.political factions, it does make you wonder what is the difference
:08:20. > :08:25.between that and civil war? It will never be a civil war, Egyptians, by
:08:25. > :08:30.nature, even the Muslim Brotherhood are staying at home and not on the
:08:30. > :08:34.streets and are peaceful. Egypt is not Syria, it is not Libya, we're
:08:34. > :08:41.very peaceful by nature. So it is never going to happen. And the
:08:41. > :08:46.people who are trying to portray what happened starting on the 1st
:08:46. > :08:50.of June until the 8th of July as a coup is totally wrong. The military
:08:50. > :08:55.was totally unbiased during the year of the Muslim Brotherhood rule,
:08:55. > :09:00.and it was not taking sides. Until the demonstrations happened and
:09:00. > :09:03.they have seen the massive population on the streets. If they
:09:03. > :09:09.did not take sides with the Egyptians we would have turned
:09:09. > :09:14.against the army. So it is definitely not a coup. I'm really
:09:14. > :09:19.surprised by the west and the western media, not the BBC, but I'm
:09:19. > :09:24.really surprised with having so much correspondents here and we are
:09:24. > :09:29.still hearing this kind of military coup. The military is the
:09:29. > :09:32.prospector of the nation and the peace and the calm of the society
:09:32. > :09:41.in Egypt which is not only sporpbt to Egypt but it is important to the
:09:41. > :09:45.-- important to Egypt but to the world. What do you call it begin a
:09:45. > :09:55.democratically-elected President is put out of power by the army. What
:09:55. > :09:57.
:09:57. > :10:01.do you call it? Well the Nazis were elected and the Duche in Italy, and
:10:01. > :10:04.they were ougsed and the Germans and Italians had a change -- ousted
:10:04. > :10:07.and the Germans and Italians had a change of heart. What more could
:10:07. > :10:13.you require from people by going into the streets in their millions
:10:13. > :10:17.asking for the President to step down. And he did not give a single
:10:17. > :10:20.concession during the whole year. Even Mubarak started giving
:10:20. > :10:25.concessions. He changed the Government, he changed the
:10:25. > :10:30.constitution, he banned his son from the National Democratic Party
:10:30. > :10:34.and he said himself he would not bid again for the presidency.
:10:34. > :10:38.Talking about Morsi...Let's Look ahead, if we may. The army are
:10:38. > :10:43.making it known tonight that they have a plan, they say, for within
:10:43. > :10:46.four months some sort of referendum on a constitution, parliamentary
:10:46. > :10:51.elections, presidential elections after that. How seriously do you
:10:51. > :10:55.think we should take that? should take it very seriously
:10:55. > :10:59.because, first of all, it is not the military plan, it is the consen
:10:59. > :11:04.Qus between the military and the -- consensus between the military and
:11:04. > :11:08.political powers in Egypt. They have done it before. Why not
:11:08. > :11:12.referring back to the 25th January. It was the same situation. We went
:11:12. > :11:19.down in the streets and shouted "we don't want you Mubarak", so the
:11:19. > :11:24.army stepped over and said, Mr President, please go. They started
:11:24. > :11:29.declaring a Road Map, and they were extremely committed. They said they
:11:29. > :11:33.would turn over the authority to a civilian entity and body by the
:11:33. > :11:37.30th of June and they committed to every word, why should we doubt it?
:11:37. > :11:40.Thank you very much indeed. Unfortunately we are una ibl to
:11:40. > :11:47.cross to the Muslim Brotherhood -- unable to cross toe the Muslim
:11:47. > :11:50.Brotherhood spokesman in Cairo. Let's look at the crisis, it began
:11:50. > :11:56.when the elections produced a Muslim Brotherhood Government,
:11:56. > :12:00.which was brought into a crisis of legitimacy, which was aggravated by
:12:00. > :12:04.an economic crisi. Whoever takes the country forward has to give
:12:04. > :12:12.people not only of peace but also of prosperity and a sense of
:12:12. > :12:19.beginning to feel better off. As Egypt turns so too does the
:12:19. > :12:23.wheel on which Mohammed's livelihood depends. With children
:12:23. > :12:28.to feed, his hands must continue to work on the clay. Others around the
:12:28. > :12:33.country are razed in protest. The become is only a third of what it
:12:33. > :12:38.was before Egypt's dictatorship was overthrown two years ago.
:12:38. > :12:41.TRANSLATION: After the revolution sales went down so much. We don't
:12:41. > :12:46.sell now, our pots are just sitting on the shelves. We used to deliver
:12:46. > :12:50.to shops in Cairo every month, we did exhibitions for embassies, we
:12:50. > :12:57.exported to Italy, Holland, Morocco. Since the revolution it is no
:12:57. > :13:03.longer safe here, so tourists are afraid to come. Mohammed's dusty
:13:03. > :13:09.village, Tunis, two-and-a-half hours from Cairo was gent trified a
:13:09. > :13:14.little as Egypt's middle-class widened in the last few years of
:13:14. > :13:24.President Mubarak. You don't see much of that now or the foreigners
:13:24. > :13:27.
:13:27. > :13:31.who came here. The revolution is to blame. This feels a long way from
:13:31. > :13:36.Tahrir Square, however people here travel regularly to the capital for
:13:36. > :13:40.the protests. Egypt, at all levels of society is an intensely
:13:40. > :13:43.political country. People have to earn and living and here that is
:13:43. > :13:47.not easy. The economy slowed almost to a halt. With unemployment
:13:47. > :13:53.possibly as high as 20%, rising inflation and dangerously low
:13:53. > :14:00.levels of foreign reserves. Back in Cairo I have come to meet a
:14:00. > :14:03.man who can help put things right. This is the billionare tycoon who
:14:03. > :14:13.connected Egyptians by starting the country's first mobile phone
:14:13. > :14:18.company. I have no remind people why we are here. Telecoms is the
:14:18. > :14:24.most important thing. He and his family are Egypt's largest private
:14:24. > :14:28.employers. This is a picture of post-January what people felt.
:14:28. > :14:32.welcomed the 2011 revolution, but left the country after the Muslim
:14:32. > :14:37.Brotherhood's Mohamed Morsi was elected President last year. Now
:14:37. > :14:42.he's back to repair the damage, he says, the Brotherhood did. Very bad
:14:42. > :14:47.management and they frightened all the investors out of the country,
:14:47. > :14:50.especially the Egyptians. I can tell you I'm not proud of that, but
:14:50. > :14:59.for two-and-a-half years I personally haven't invested a penny
:14:59. > :15:04.here. I didn't even want to change my old TV in my house! We have this
:15:04. > :15:12.channel and another one. That is live. You can see that is Tahrir
:15:12. > :15:15.Square now. But he doesn't just own TVs he owns TV stations. This one
:15:15. > :15:18.helped encourage the mass protests on Tahrir Square, that led to the
:15:18. > :15:24.toppling of Morsi and are still rolling on. He now wants stability
:15:24. > :15:30.so that the IMF and other lenders will step in to save the country.
:15:30. > :15:35.Now we need to have an injection that will give us one year to
:15:35. > :15:41.restructure our economy. So we are now foreign reserves depleted, we
:15:41. > :15:46.would need $15-$20 billion that will take us for another 18 month
:15:46. > :15:53.and give us time to reorganise ourselves. We need to have an end
:15:53. > :15:56.to these demonstrations and the split in the society. What Egypt
:15:56. > :16:02.needs, even beyond democracy, is water.
:16:02. > :16:12.The water of course comes from the Nile. Pumped to the village of
:16:12. > :16:13.
:16:13. > :16:17.Tunis by an intricate system of canals. It is subsidised and the
:16:18. > :16:21.state needs cash it hasn't got to give the fuel to get it there.
:16:21. > :16:26.Farmers like this say they don't benefit from the subsidy any way.
:16:26. > :16:31.The sesame field is parched because often he can't afford to pump the
:16:31. > :16:35.water. TRANSLATION: Every petrol station has a certain amount of
:16:35. > :16:41.diesel, sometimes they do not get the right amount, even when they do
:16:41. > :16:43.the owner of the station sells it on the black market at three-times
:16:43. > :16:48.the subsidised price. That is happening entirely because the
:16:48. > :16:52.President can't control the country and no-one is doing their job
:16:52. > :16:58.properly. Half of all Egyptians survive below or just above the
:16:58. > :17:03.official poverty line. A loan worth nearly $5 billion was offered by
:17:03. > :17:06.the IMF, but only if subsidies on bread and cooking gas and diesel
:17:06. > :17:09.were reduced. The Muslim Brotherhood Government didn't dare
:17:09. > :17:16.agree, fearing the people's wrath. We have just been out, for example,
:17:16. > :17:22.into the provinces, we have been out there and found a farmer who
:17:22. > :17:27.complains he can no longer get diesel at subsidised prices. He
:17:27. > :17:31.wants subsidised fuel? Yeah, because all the people steal it and
:17:31. > :17:35.sell it on the black market. That is exactly it. There is no need to
:17:35. > :17:38.subsidise it. He's not happy with it at the higher price, he wants it
:17:38. > :17:43.at the lower price and he can't survive unless it is at the lower
:17:44. > :17:48.price? He's also not allowed to sell his production on the free
:17:48. > :17:54.market price. Everything is done outside of that. Egypt inherited
:17:54. > :18:00.this socialist system during Nasr, when Mubarak came and they tried to
:18:00. > :18:04.change it but still very many residuals from the socialist system
:18:04. > :18:10.remained. These why your medals? But Egypt's economy won't work
:18:10. > :18:14.until the politics do. A tycoon like this is a political player too.
:18:14. > :18:18.He has been involved in discussions on a new Government. There is no
:18:18. > :18:23.place like home. Even as Egypt seems more divided than ever, he
:18:23. > :18:26.wants Islamists included. They should reach out the hand for the
:18:26. > :18:31.Islamists, for the Muslim Brotherhood, we should reach out
:18:31. > :18:34.for them, we shouldn't go into a persecution or revenge state, we
:18:34. > :18:40.have to accommodate them back and talk sense to them and cool them
:18:40. > :18:43.down and take them back into social. Down on Tahrir Square, as the anti-
:18:43. > :18:48.-Morsi crowds gathered again this evening, there weren't many calls
:18:48. > :18:52.for reconciliation with the Muslim Brotherhood. We don't need them.
:18:52. > :18:57.The Muslim Brotherhood we don't need them from the beginning of
:18:57. > :19:07.history. They are bloody people. But they represent many Egyptians?
:19:07. > :19:08.
:19:08. > :19:13.They mislead them. They are liars. TRANSLATION: They have no political
:19:13. > :19:17.future here in Egypt. No place politically. Their party should not
:19:17. > :19:21.have weapons. We don't want Egypt to be like Syria. Last night's
:19:22. > :19:26.violence appears only to have hardened views on both sides, and
:19:26. > :19:31.the chances now of a peaceful way out of Egypt's crisis seem even
:19:31. > :19:36.slimmer. Back in the village the hopes of progress to improve
:19:37. > :19:40.everyday life will have to be put on hold for even longer.
:19:40. > :19:44.How many bedrooms do you have at home? How many do you really need?
:19:44. > :19:48.None of your business you might respond. If you are living on
:19:48. > :19:53.benefits it is, or rather it is the business of officialdom, since
:19:53. > :19:56.April as part of the the clampdown on the welfare bill, around 660,000
:19:56. > :20:01.people living in social housing have been told they may only claim
:20:01. > :20:06.benefit for what is judged to be an appropriate number of bedrooms. The
:20:06. > :20:10.Government calls this clamping down on a spare bedroom subsidy. The
:20:10. > :20:14.called bedroom tax is reckoned to be pretty popular in Daily Mail
:20:14. > :20:18.land, because it seems to play to the idea that there are scroungers
:20:18. > :20:23.all over the land living the life of Reilly at the tax-payers'
:20:23. > :20:28.expense. Councils have been given �150 million to use at their
:20:28. > :20:35.discretion, but it is hard to distinguish the deserving from the
:20:35. > :20:44.called undeserving. See how hard news night has heard from -- we
:20:44. > :20:50.have heard from some of the CAB cases in Coventry.
:20:50. > :20:55.My brother Gordon originally moved in here with my mother in 2007. My
:20:55. > :21:00.mum's health started to deteriorate around the same time. She had to
:21:00. > :21:10.move out. That's why gord Dan has an extra -- Gordon has an extra
:21:10. > :21:13.
:21:13. > :21:17.bedroom. Gordon is mentally and physically handicapped, he has
:21:17. > :21:22.sight in only one eye. He suffers with epilepsy and his mobility is
:21:22. > :21:27.not very good either. Did you not see Pat today?
:21:27. > :21:31.don't wum in on a Wednesday, she's on her -- come in on a Wednesday,
:21:31. > :21:38.she's on her course. Pretty much everything I do for Gordon, I do
:21:38. > :21:47.all the cleaning, all his shopping. I cut his hair for him.
:21:47. > :21:52.I take him out for meals and the odd pint, everything really. Have
:21:52. > :21:56.you seen Dawn today? Yes.This is my brother's home, he has built a
:21:56. > :22:01.life here over the past six years. He's near to his day centre, he's
:22:01. > :22:10.near to me, my mother, he has a God doctor on the doorstep. It would be
:22:10. > :22:13.a -- good doctor on the doorstep. It would be a real upheaval for him
:22:13. > :22:18.to move. The extra room is �16 a week. It isn't a situation you
:22:18. > :22:27.would want to go on too long, �16 a week over the course of a year is a
:22:27. > :22:31.lot of money. With Gordon I'm trying to help him
:22:31. > :22:35.get an extra payment because he has a shortfall in rent. It is called
:22:35. > :22:38.the discretionary housing payment. We are supposed to have care in the
:22:38. > :22:42.community and it is nice to see Gordon being able to live
:22:42. > :22:45.independently. Because he's in a place where he's settled. He
:22:45. > :22:55.couldn't, any upheaval in his life, I think would be devastating for
:22:55. > :22:56.
:22:56. > :23:00.him. It would cause health issues and make it worse. He gets
:23:00. > :23:04.disability benefit, because of the welfare reform that is all changing.
:23:04. > :23:07.His income could be reducing. If they don't accept the discretionary
:23:07. > :23:17.housing payment he is still going to have to find money to keep a
:23:17. > :23:22.roof over his head. After that what other options are there? I don't
:23:22. > :23:29.know. There ain't really is there? There ain't, I don't think there is
:23:29. > :23:39.any options? Apart from reapplying for it again, or you know does a
:23:39. > :23:53.
:23:53. > :23:57.Since the 1st April we have probably had 200 people come in
:23:57. > :24:01.concerned about underoccupancy or bedroom tax as it is called. The at
:24:01. > :24:05.the mand is way exceeding the -- demand is way exceeding the
:24:05. > :24:11.staffing we have got. The vast majority of people that have come
:24:11. > :24:14.into us have been people largely with mental health issues or other
:24:14. > :24:21.daiblts. Schizophrenia, depression and things like that. They are also
:24:21. > :24:26.battling to try to ensure that they can maintain their disability
:24:26. > :24:36.benefits. A lot are in high levels of debt. A reduction of �25 is a
:24:36. > :24:37.
:24:37. > :24:42.real problem. This is probably one of the more brutal of reforms made.
:24:42. > :24:46.It doesn't give people many options, it actually threatening some of the
:24:46. > :24:49.security that they do actually have. It threatens the home they live in
:24:49. > :24:53.and the communities that they live within. We have seen clients come
:24:53. > :24:57.in who have been living in their house and brought up their families
:24:57. > :25:01.and their home and have lived there for 40 years and then all of a
:25:01. > :25:05.sudden they are having to possibly consider moving house, maybe moving
:25:05. > :25:15.to another part of the city or another city all together to try to
:25:15. > :25:15.
:25:15. > :25:19.find a smaller property of which there are very few. I would like to
:25:20. > :25:22.see someone about the bedroom tax. I'm seeing people who have already
:25:22. > :25:25.accumulated rent arrears because of the shortfall, some people just
:25:25. > :25:35.haven't, they can't pay it. So the rent arrears are building up and
:25:35. > :25:37.
:25:37. > :25:41.building up. They will end up with the house being taken off them. So
:25:41. > :25:51.I don't see how it can save money when people are just going to be
:25:51. > :25:52.
:25:52. > :25:57.homeless. I wanted something nice for her, we went out and bought
:25:57. > :26:01.cheap wallpaper and painted the rest. We went and bought cheap
:26:01. > :26:08.carpet and put it down and went to auctions to get furniture in the
:26:08. > :26:17.room for when she came here. spare bedroom is for Sandra who is
:26:17. > :26:22.my stepdaughter. My partner Paul's daughter. Sandra's in care and so
:26:22. > :26:30.obviously they are very strict, the room has to look OK for her, she
:26:30. > :26:35.needs her own bed. My ex-partner, she used to be violent towards her
:26:35. > :26:41.and I actually went to the social services myself to have something
:26:41. > :26:46.done about it. That's the reason why she went into care in the end.
:26:46. > :26:51.When it first happened we could only see each other through contact
:26:51. > :26:55.and that and take her out places and then it started to be overnight
:26:55. > :27:00.once a month. She means the world to me, I would do anything for her.
:27:00. > :27:06.I think if I just turned around and say you can't come over any more
:27:06. > :27:09.because we have to move to a one- bedroom place and can't have a two-
:27:09. > :27:14.bedroomed place she would be deaf vase tated. We are really close, we
:27:14. > :27:20.have a -- devastated. We are really close and we have a strong bond,
:27:20. > :27:25.and it might push her away thinking I don't want her. Obviously we were
:27:25. > :27:31.in our Catch 22, we panicked, because it is a lot of money out of
:27:31. > :27:37.our benefits, it is a lot of money. If we struggle so be it, Sandra has
:27:37. > :27:43.to come first. I can't see any way out of this other than when I start
:27:43. > :27:47.work. And then it won't affect us. I'm hoping to get a job myself, I'm
:27:47. > :27:52.looking at factory work, driving work, cleaning work. I send off
:27:52. > :28:01.every week for at least six, seven jobs. I didn't need a push, before
:28:01. > :28:04.this bedroom tax came in, I'm half way through my foundation degree. I
:28:05. > :28:07.have been working to get myself into a good place to get back into
:28:07. > :28:17.work. I want to get out of the system, it is horrible. It is
:28:17. > :28:21.
:28:21. > :28:25.making it tougher. We have been making cut backs and now we have to
:28:25. > :28:30.make more, we have to be careful what we eat. Spaghetti Bolognese,
:28:30. > :28:34.you need the money to eat that, we shop at the cheapest shop we can
:28:34. > :28:44.find and get the cheapest brands we can find. They are the only
:28:44. > :28:47.
:28:47. > :28:51.cutbacks we can physically make is the food. About a quarter of people
:28:51. > :28:56.coming to see us about bedroom tax are seeing us because they need
:28:56. > :28:59.their extra room, they have a child they care for or joint custody with,
:29:00. > :29:04.and that child might live with them three days a week, because they are
:29:04. > :29:07.not the parent that claims child benefit they are subject to the
:29:07. > :29:11.underoccupancy rules. But the thing with this policy is it looks like
:29:11. > :29:17.people have a choice. It has been badged as people have a choice but
:29:17. > :29:21.they really don't have a choice at all. They either have to move out
:29:21. > :29:27.of their home if they can, but they probably can't, so they have to
:29:27. > :29:37.deal with the reduction in incomes. Ultimately the bottom line with
:29:37. > :29:42.
:29:42. > :29:45.this is people have to survive and people have to eat. These reforms
:29:45. > :29:49.have happened and they are here we now have to work with what we have
:29:49. > :29:53.got. Our job as a CAB has been to try to become a bit more practical
:29:53. > :29:57.in how we support people through these changes. So that they don't
:29:57. > :30:01.have the problems further down the line and hopefully fewer people
:30:02. > :30:06.then will need to join the queue at the CAB on a Monday morning because
:30:06. > :30:10.they are at risk of losing their home. We are trying something very
:30:10. > :30:14.different in that we have decided to build a mock-up flat in the
:30:14. > :30:22.bureau to try to help people with some very practical skills around
:30:22. > :30:27.how they manage their money. The idea is new tenants will come in
:30:27. > :30:32.and we can help them learn a lot of things people take for granted, how
:30:32. > :30:37.to read a metre, affordable furniture, setting up utility
:30:37. > :30:44.accounts, understanding what APR is, and getting people off on the right
:30:44. > :30:49.foot. This is our real-life, functioning training facility,
:30:49. > :30:55.kitchen. If I can just take you into the living room area...Last
:30:55. > :31:00.August I was in a council flat in Stowbridge, because of debts and
:31:00. > :31:07.unemployment I walked out on my council flat. So I got a night
:31:07. > :31:11.coach to Brighton and I had a with me just in case. So I found a place
:31:11. > :31:16.behind the Palace in Brighton and I stayed in the tent for three weeks.
:31:17. > :31:23.I had to rely on the food banks for meals. Sometimes I had to starve
:31:23. > :31:27.most of the day because there was no food. You can furnish your new
:31:27. > :31:36.home to a reasonable standard without breaking the bank. The last
:31:36. > :31:40.nine month has been a nightmare really. Andrew was in a hostel
:31:40. > :31:44.which catered specifically for people with alcohol and drug
:31:44. > :31:50.addiction problems. Andrew himself isn't a substance misuser he found
:31:50. > :31:54.that it wasn't the ideal place to be situated and located. He was
:31:54. > :32:01.quite lonely and he didn't receive any support, essentially he was put
:32:01. > :32:06.there and left to his own devices. We will be running cooking classes.
:32:06. > :32:11.Financially I lived on �10 a fortnight after my bills and junk
:32:11. > :32:15.food most of the time, or even living on biscuit as well.
:32:15. > :32:20.aware you need specific support on budgeting and banking. I have been
:32:20. > :32:23.out of work now for over ten years, I have done casual work. I have
:32:23. > :32:28.retail skills, fundraising skills, I have done gardening, warehouse,
:32:28. > :32:38.you want to work, I'm 51, I'm worried that in another two years I
:32:38. > :32:41.
:32:41. > :32:44.will be still on benefits. I have no friends that I know apart from
:32:44. > :32:49.church friends, family, I have a sister somewhere, I don't know
:32:49. > :32:54.where she is, I know where she is in Birmingham, I lost contact with
:32:54. > :33:03.her 20 years ago. I lost my father in 2000 and I didn't know until I
:33:03. > :33:06.got back to Coventry that he died. We give the clients a start-up pack
:33:07. > :33:10.which consists of a number of household goods that you would take
:33:10. > :33:19.for granted and these items, although they are not of
:33:19. > :33:22.significant monetary value, for our clients they are a huge help. He
:33:23. > :33:28.has managed to secure a place from the local Housing Association and
:33:28. > :33:38.you know it will give him that level of independent that personal
:33:38. > :33:38.
:33:38. > :33:43.sort of space. Yesterday they gave me the keys to move in, it has been,
:33:43. > :33:49.it last been great because it is the first time I have had a decent
:33:49. > :33:53.night's sleep. Even though I'm sleeping on the floor at the moment.
:33:53. > :34:03.I'm getting the help hopefully with grants and through the church as
:34:03. > :34:05.
:34:05. > :34:10.well. But it is a new start for me. I was overjoyed when I saw it, it
:34:10. > :34:20.is bigger than I thought it was, it is fantastic, just the peace and
:34:20. > :34:23.
:34:23. > :34:30.quiet as well. It is amazing. It gives you your identity back. Being
:34:30. > :34:36.homeless is very depressing, not knowing what will happen in the
:34:36. > :34:45.next week. It has been a long process for me, really. It has
:34:45. > :34:50.taken nine months to get here, but I'm here, I'm very grateful.
:34:50. > :34:52.Harriet Baldwin is a Conservative MP and aide to one of the ministers
:34:52. > :34:55.in the Department for Work and Pensions, responsible for the
:34:55. > :34:59.introduction of the called bedroom tax. Are you embarrassed by any of
:34:59. > :35:07.those cases we heard about, victims of the bedroom tax? This is, as you
:35:07. > :35:10.know, we prefer to call it the "spare room subsidy", I think we
:35:10. > :35:13.should highlight the fantastic work the CAB does across the country. In
:35:14. > :35:18.those particular cases highlighted just now I do want to emphasise
:35:18. > :35:22.where there is someone who has a daibltd, who needs a carer to spend
:35:22. > :35:26.-- disability, who need a carer to spend the night or occasionally
:35:26. > :35:29.give them care at night they will be allowed an extra bedroom. I want
:35:29. > :35:36.to clarify that and put it on record. Noort of thoses there is
:35:36. > :35:42.nothing to worry about? In the first case if I was advising I
:35:42. > :35:45.would advise him to apply for a two bedroom allowance. What about the
:35:45. > :35:50.court order where a parent should have contact with the father only
:35:50. > :35:55.if the child is in a separate room and that is classified as falling
:35:55. > :36:04.within the scope of what do you call the bedroom tax? A spare room
:36:04. > :36:09.subsidy. That is nonsense, isn't it? The Point I would make is there
:36:09. > :36:13.are 250,000 families not mentioned today living in overcrowded
:36:13. > :36:17.accommodation. We have to make the best use of the social housing.
:36:17. > :36:21.many households are living in places with surplus bedrooms?
:36:21. > :36:26.a million surplus bedrooms in the country. And what we want to try to
:36:26. > :36:30.do is for the two million families on the housing waiting list, the
:36:30. > :36:34.250,000 families in overcrowded accommodation we want to make the
:36:34. > :36:37.best use of that accommodation. want them to move to smaller
:36:37. > :36:41.accommodation, so presumably you know how many one bedroom homes
:36:41. > :36:46.were released on to the market last year do you? If you are in social
:36:46. > :36:50.housing and your family expands and you have, for example, two
:36:50. > :36:56.teenagers, one of boy and one a girl and they need an extra bedroom,
:36:56. > :36:59.you are perfectly entitled to ask for that extra bedroom. We want to
:36:59. > :37:06.make sure families can swap to make the best use of the housing stock.
:37:06. > :37:10.What do you call it? The spare room surplus, and spare occupancy.
:37:11. > :37:14.want people to move to smaller accommodation, do you know how many
:37:14. > :37:19.single bedroom homes were released last year? You need to take into
:37:19. > :37:24.account. Do you know that or not? We have families in one bedroom and
:37:25. > :37:30.need to move to two bedroom. Do you know?, do you know? I don't have it.
:37:30. > :37:34.There is 85,000. It will take a long time to get a million people
:37:34. > :37:40.into those. There are families needing to move to a two bedroom
:37:40. > :37:45.flat from a one bedroom flat. There is home direct swapping list, and
:37:45. > :37:50.they can swap within the social housing list without losing
:37:50. > :37:54.tendency rights. It is all going well is it? It is important we
:37:54. > :37:57.point out for ordinary families that aren't within the benefits
:37:57. > :38:01.system they have to make choices every day when their families split
:38:01. > :38:05.up about what kind of housing they can afford in that situation.
:38:05. > :38:08.the CAB is making a fuss about nothing? They are highlighting.
:38:08. > :38:13.Really serious problems in the lives that people have had to do a
:38:13. > :38:17.lot more difficult than you or I ever have had to do? Bear in mind
:38:17. > :38:21.we will put in �380 million of discretionary housing payment. If
:38:22. > :38:25.any of those people came to my advice surgery I would advise them
:38:25. > :38:30.to apply for discretionary housing payment. There is an enormous
:38:30. > :38:35.amount of money available. There is �150 million. In 2008 when the last
:38:35. > :38:40.Government brought in the rulings for the private rented sector and
:38:40. > :38:48.housing benefit. There was talk there wouldn't be enough housing
:38:48. > :38:51.and the reforms went forward in good fashion. There are
:38:51. > :38:59.disrecognitionry payments and it will take time but it needs to be
:38:59. > :39:04.addressed. Thank you. It will doubtless be presented as another
:39:04. > :39:07.clause IV moment, or extended essay, tomorrow the Labour leadership will
:39:07. > :39:12.demonstrate it is getting on top of the party's relationship with the
:39:12. > :39:16.trade unions. The Tories have been making hey for days play claiming
:39:16. > :39:19.that Ed Miliband is a glove puppet manipulated by those who pay the
:39:19. > :39:26.Labour Party's costs. Tonight he told MPs and peers that he would
:39:26. > :39:29.reform the relationship, precisely what that will involve we will
:39:29. > :39:34.learn tomorrow. Allegra Stratton might have a clue. What will
:39:34. > :39:39.happen? He will announce he wants to move Labour to something called
:39:39. > :39:44."opting in with the union levy". Let me explain it in a second. If
:39:44. > :39:47.he is successful in it, it could cost his party �9 million or �8
:39:47. > :39:51.million, depending on the figures. We shouldn't dismiss it before the
:39:51. > :39:55.speech. It is also something that if it comes to a natural conclusion
:39:55. > :39:58.as being talked about this evening on phone calls I have had with some
:39:58. > :40:04.Labour sources, it is also something that will see the link
:40:04. > :40:08.between the unions and the Labour Party reavaiinged in the future in
:40:09. > :40:12.a pro-- rearranged in the future in a profound way. How big a deal is
:40:12. > :40:15.it? It is a big deal. When Christopher Kelly announced his
:40:15. > :40:19.view for party funding, this was his idea. Ed Miliband has always
:40:19. > :40:22.said he wouldn't do it. I should explain the idea. At the moment if
:40:22. > :40:25.you are a member of the union you are automatically, they get some
:40:25. > :40:29.information, but basically it is pretty much a done deal that your
:40:29. > :40:33.money will go to the Labour Party. What they want to move towards is
:40:33. > :40:36.you will get a bit more information, and if you want your money to go to
:40:37. > :40:41.the Labour Party you opt-in. That is the system they want to move
:40:41. > :40:46.towards. It could see them, that pot of money is around �8 million.
:40:46. > :40:53.Thanks for that. Here to discuss Ed Miliband's speech is John Mann a
:40:53. > :40:58.Labour MP and member of the Unite union. We are joined by Labour
:40:58. > :41:05.party grandee Lord Prescott, are you impressed by it? It is a bold
:41:05. > :41:09.move, if it gets the half a million more members it might do it could
:41:09. > :41:13.be revolutionary. There is an if and a could in that? Of course
:41:13. > :41:19.there is, you have to persuade people to join. It is bold. It
:41:19. > :41:23.would be a change. A fairly radical change. But it is keeping the union
:41:23. > :41:26.members and the unions in with the Labour Party rather than breaking.
:41:26. > :41:30.John Prescott what do you think of this plan? I agree with what John
:41:30. > :41:34.said, you can't say he's not making decisions. To be fair he's been
:41:34. > :41:39.talking about this for two years. The new idea of the registered
:41:39. > :41:41.supporters, they have already taken part in an election, 10% in the
:41:41. > :41:44.Electoral College. Are we absolutely clear he has taken a
:41:44. > :41:49.decision, or is he having an investigation to see whether these
:41:49. > :41:52.ideas are feasible, it is different? As he said to the party
:41:52. > :41:55.meeting and he will say tomorrow, le want to discuss these matters.
:41:55. > :42:00.This is the moment -- he will want to discuss the matters. This is the
:42:00. > :42:04.moment he wants to put the message out about the membership of
:42:04. > :42:12.ordinary members. When I took part in the debate 20 years ago, one-
:42:12. > :42:18.member, one-vote, that was highly controversial, followed by Clause I
:42:18. > :42:22.v, but we got down to be bait and implemented changes and got on with
:42:22. > :42:25.it. This is part of the change to do with party funding. Don't you
:42:25. > :42:29.get the feeling this is him playing for time, there will be a big
:42:29. > :42:32.inquiry and a bit of a proposal at the end of it, and who knows it
:42:32. > :42:37.will be after the next election by then? I understand that he's also
:42:37. > :42:43.going to be proposing the primaries in some situations. I had a primary
:42:43. > :42:47.for the leadership and I had 10,000 people in my area, rather than the
:42:47. > :42:50.200, 300 members of the Labour Party that most areas have voting.
:42:50. > :42:55.You mean anyone will be able to come along and say whether they
:42:55. > :42:59.want somebody to be a candidate or not? The Tories at the last
:42:59. > :43:03.election pulled quite a coup by having a primary. We are not
:43:03. > :43:09.talking about the Tories but your party? If we do the same thing by
:43:09. > :43:13.involving vast numbers of people in our selections that's going to have
:43:13. > :43:15.a positive impact. You have to be registered as a Labour Party
:43:15. > :43:19.supporter as well as affiliated through the trade unions. It is
:43:19. > :43:22.those that take part in the vote, not everybody. In the primaries
:43:22. > :43:26.regarding London and only London they are looking how that would
:43:26. > :43:31.work in the primary situation. It is radical movement, it is a man
:43:31. > :43:35.showing, not just now, over the two years since his one-nation speech
:43:35. > :43:38.he has been working out these flow things. It is not that radical if
:43:39. > :43:43.you have to be a paid up party member or registered supporter, is
:43:43. > :43:47.it? If you are going to lose possibly �8 million on the party
:43:47. > :43:50.political funding that is a pretty bold move. What we have seen in
:43:50. > :43:53.reactions from People Like Us and the spats that have gone on between
:43:53. > :43:57.ourselves and some of the leaders of the unions, in those
:43:57. > :44:03.circumstances we are going through the same controversy. It is easy to
:44:03. > :44:07.avoid but as we found with one- member, one-vote, and Clause IV,
:44:07. > :44:11.get on with the controversy, have the debate and settle down.
:44:11. > :44:15.come out of it �8 million poorer? hope the Government would have to
:44:15. > :44:19.re-think about its party funding, which was mentioned by Allegra. Let
:44:19. > :44:22.us look then, because these are fundamental changes, no-one party
:44:22. > :44:26.should have a lot more money. We have already said candidates will
:44:26. > :44:31.be capped in the Labour Party. When I fought the deputy leadership it
:44:31. > :44:36.cost me �10,000. Tony Blair was able to raise �100,000, that is
:44:37. > :44:43.basically unfair, he will cap it. That is a radical point of view.
:44:43. > :44:48.that why he won? It might be, maybe I wasn't good enough any way
:44:48. > :44:51.Jeremy! That is minor detail. is important? It is, but having
:44:51. > :44:55.fairness in elections is very important. If I can get 10,000
:44:55. > :45:01.people to vote in a leadership primary in my constituents that
:45:01. > :45:05.would be hugely positive. To bring in these active trade union members
:45:05. > :45:10.into participation, this could have a huge been figures impact, not
:45:10. > :45:15.just in the next few years, but in the longer term for the Labour
:45:15. > :45:20.Party. And a radical change, John dominated Ed, and his people said
:45:20. > :45:25.vote Dave, and he did. You can't fix mass participation. That is why
:45:25. > :45:30.this is so potentially bold and radical. Absolutely.It is not just
:45:31. > :45:34.fixing on the small side bits and pieces. A little change in response
:45:34. > :45:39.to Falkirk, this is a much bolder move than I think people had ever
:45:39. > :45:43.dreamed would happen. Bold, radical and courageous. Would he have done
:45:43. > :45:47.it had it not been for the cuss that the Conservatives have been
:45:47. > :45:51.able to make over the shenanigans in Falkirk? We have an inquiry
:45:51. > :45:56.there, let's see the results of that. Why is he only getting around
:45:56. > :46:00.it to it now? You do the questions, Jeremy, I will try the answers. At
:46:00. > :46:03.the end of it he said at the party meeting tonight, he said the moment
:46:03. > :46:07.has come because of all these difficulty. He has been arguing
:46:07. > :46:10.them against the background, do you have them, do you not have them.
:46:10. > :46:14.Now everybody agrees there is a major attack by the press and
:46:14. > :46:19.indeed the Tory Party, and we need to put the package together,
:46:19. > :46:22.something he has worked on for two years. This is a man with a bold,
:46:22. > :46:26.radical position, not the way it has been positioned in the paper or
:46:26. > :46:33.in the media. Do you think the unions should welcome this? Yes, I
:46:33. > :46:40.do. Because the unions have been very poor at getting working-class
:46:40. > :46:43.representatives in into parliament for a long time. We need to see a
:46:43. > :46:46.much better array of backgrounds in parliament. This suits that process.
:46:46. > :46:56.Thank you very much, it will be all over tomorrow morning's front
:46:56. > :47:11.
:47:11. > :47:16.The person who electfied the nation yesterday by becoming the first
:47:16. > :47:20.British man to win Wimbledon for 77 years was allowed into Downing
:47:20. > :47:25.Street to bask in the glory of David Cameron, Ed Miliband and
:47:25. > :47:31.others, he must have been so proud. The Pathe news reals have no record
:47:31. > :47:36.of whether the last man to win, Fred Perry was high fanned by
:47:36. > :47:42.Stanley Baldwin, but maybe the pipe was raised to him. Can Perry do it,
:47:42. > :47:50.in three straight sets. Excitement at fever pitch. For 25 years no
:47:50. > :47:55.eing lashman has won this xet -- Englishman has won this competition.
:47:55. > :48:05.So Fred Perry is Wimbledon champion. The only Englishman to win in 50
:48:05. > :48:05.
:48:05. > :48:10.years. There has never been another The warmest day for Scotland and
:48:10. > :48:14.Northern Ireland on Monday. For Tuesday we start off with mist and
:48:14. > :48:19.low cloud across central England, burning back to North Sea coastal
:48:19. > :48:22.areas. Keeping thicker cloud across northern Scotland. For Northern
:48:22. > :48:26.Ireland perhaps not as warm as on Monday, still the low 20s on
:48:26. > :48:29.Tuesday afternoon. Much more overcast in the norp and Western
:48:29. > :48:34.Isles with the odd spot of rain or drizzle.
:48:34. > :48:37.Mist and low cloud could be clearing the coastline keeping
:48:37. > :48:43.temperatures down. We are much more hopeful of the cloud burning away
:48:43. > :48:47.to give more sunshine for north- east England and Lincolnshire. Many
:48:47. > :48:52.southern counties continuing with the hot and spuny weather over the
:48:52. > :48:57.last few -- sunny weather over the last few days. For Cardiff 25 with
:48:57. > :49:07.the sunshine taking over come the afternoon across Wales. If we look
:49:07. > :49:15.