:00:14. > :00:17.Tonight, Twitter trolls, mad, sad or just bad. Possibly all three.
:00:17. > :00:21.And what some believe could be a watershed moment for social media,
:00:21. > :00:26.a woman campaigner has been subjected to abusive attacks with
:00:26. > :00:30.threats of rape. The backlash has been profound. Paul misson has been
:00:30. > :00:35.on a troll hunt. Whoever has had that conversation has all these
:00:35. > :00:38.things, your Playstation account, and they have had all three of
:00:38. > :00:44.these Twitter accounts, which have issued rape threats. That is what
:00:44. > :00:48.they have done. Who should stop the tweets of hate, threats and abuse,
:00:48. > :00:53.the law or Twitter? A stand-off in Egypt between the military and
:00:53. > :00:58.Islamists. Is this the defining struggle of the Arab Spring. Those
:00:58. > :01:03.who support the army see this as their golden opportunity to finish
:01:03. > :01:07.off the Muslim Brotherhood. place where it all began, Tunisia
:01:07. > :01:12.where Islamist radical, called Salafists assert their authority on
:01:12. > :01:16.the street and hand out vigilante justice. TRANSLATION: People say
:01:16. > :01:21.Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, they are sweet as
:01:21. > :01:26.lambs, I told you they gave me back my property. And this. TRANSLATION:
:01:26. > :01:31.If a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge
:01:31. > :01:39.him? A papal press conference, no less as Pope Francis appears to
:01:39. > :01:47.seek conciliation with homosexuals. Is this a soft answer that turnth
:01:47. > :01:51.away wrath, or a significant change in Vatican thinking. Good evening,
:01:51. > :01:56.it is difficult to believe that a campaign to put the face of one of
:01:56. > :02:03.this country's most beloved novelists, Jane Austen, on a �10
:02:03. > :02:04.note, would end in rape threats. Has what has happened to the
:02:05. > :02:09.feminist campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez. On Twitter she was
:02:09. > :02:13.abused but a number of people, presumably men, by men who hid
:02:13. > :02:18.their identity known as trolls. Twitter said it was testing a
:02:18. > :02:23.button to report abuse with every tweet. But amid a storm of protest
:02:23. > :02:26.Twitter's own response has been branded weak and inadequate. We
:02:26. > :02:30.will hear from Caroline Criado- Perez in a moment. First we are on
:02:30. > :02:35.a troll hunt. Amid a deluge of on-line rape
:02:35. > :02:39.threat, the journalist Caroline Criado-Perez and MP Stella Creasy,
:02:39. > :02:46.spent the day fighting back against the called trolls. At Newsnight we
:02:46. > :02:52.spent the day trying to find them. Someone called "rapehernow".
:02:52. > :02:57.says he wants to BEEP someone until they die. This one responds, he
:02:57. > :03:01.says? He says could I help you with that LOL. You have tracked him
:03:01. > :03:04.down? I have. Mike Smith, a journalist specialising in this
:03:04. > :03:08.technology had been monitoring the threats all weekend and managed to
:03:08. > :03:16.communicate with one of the men making them. He is calling her a
:03:16. > :03:22.bitch and then he's saying he will find her, and he BEEP rape her and
:03:22. > :03:26.wouldn't mind a piece. I managed to communicate through the Twitter
:03:26. > :03:30.message service, and I tried to be friendly and asked why he would be
:03:30. > :03:35.trying to do that, and he let slip a bit of information to enable me
:03:35. > :03:39.to track him down. Where is he? South Shields. It is not just
:03:39. > :03:43.threats of rape that break the law. The CPS set out guidelines lawyers
:03:43. > :03:48.should take in prosecutions with violations in social media. It
:03:48. > :03:53.needs to be a credible threat of violence that specifically targets
:03:53. > :03:56.an individual, or individuals, breaches a court order, or it is
:03:56. > :04:00.considered grossly offensive, obscene or false. But laws need the
:04:00. > :04:03.police to enforce them. Though the police have made one arrest, they
:04:03. > :04:08.are running to catch up. We are having to devote more resources to
:04:08. > :04:11.it. Hence I would much rather these matters be dealt with by Twitter
:04:11. > :04:14.and others themselves and stopping these things happening straight
:04:14. > :04:17.away. The moment someone transgresses I would like them off
:04:17. > :04:21.the system. I know there are lots of problems with that and they can
:04:21. > :04:24.create new accounts and there are concerns about freedom of speech. I
:04:24. > :04:27.don't think anyone can argue about the sorts of things we heard about
:04:27. > :04:30.over the weekend are the sorts of things anyone should be saying in
:04:31. > :04:38.any public space. Here is the trail we had to follow, by direct message
:04:38. > :04:44.the man making the rape threat admitted using numerous aliases.
:04:44. > :04:48.Then he revealed his game attack, or user name on Playstation, and
:04:48. > :04:56.that led us to a Facebook account. Two pieces of technical evidence
:04:56. > :05:01.pointed to an internet connection in soutd shields, I phoned -- south
:05:01. > :05:04.sheels. I phoned the man. They have had your Playstation accounts and
:05:04. > :05:08.all three of these Twitter accounts which have issued rape threats.
:05:08. > :05:11.That is what they have done. denied running the Twitter accounts,
:05:11. > :05:14.saying his e-mail had been hacked recently. We will be handing all
:05:14. > :05:20.our evidence to the police. One of the women on the receiving
:05:20. > :05:24.end of these threats had an uncompromising message for the
:05:24. > :05:28.issuers. I would say you are not going to succeed in intimidating us,
:05:28. > :05:32.men and women will stand together and say violence against women is
:05:32. > :05:35.wrong. If you commit criminal acts and threaten and harass women in
:05:35. > :05:38.this way there will be consequences. We will stand together for a
:05:38. > :05:41.different type of Twitter and Facebook, for a space in which
:05:41. > :05:45.every voice can be heard equally and with respect. Believe me this
:05:45. > :05:48.is not going away and it will not be tolerated any more. But rape
:05:48. > :05:52.threats are only one of the ways called internet trolls break the
:05:52. > :05:58.law. Another way is to mention somebody's name in the context of a
:05:58. > :06:03.rape joke. I confronted one of the people doing that today. Since then
:06:03. > :06:13.his account has been blocked. We didn't make a complaint but it
:06:13. > :06:14.
:06:14. > :06:18.looks like Twitter has blocked Lord LOLs. He's back as another person,
:06:18. > :06:22.he's sexymanicorn and joined by a whole crew of people, who are not
:06:22. > :06:30.making threats against me and the BBC, but are for example decribing
:06:30. > :06:35.us as paedophiles and justifying rape both of men and women. This
:06:35. > :06:40.was a community of called trolls, mainly in the USA and beyond UK law.
:06:40. > :06:44.Most of what they wrote can't be shown. I get a lot of abuse on the
:06:44. > :06:47.Internet, mainly about economics. But it is only since I called out
:06:47. > :06:53.the person sending the rape jokes that this bunch of people has
:06:53. > :06:57.invaded my timeline, all of whom seem to be aligned around what they
:06:57. > :07:02.call "freedom of speech". All of them use this technique of speaking
:07:02. > :07:09.in the most disgusting and graphic way about sexual violence. It is my
:07:09. > :07:15.first experience of what a lot of women experience routinely. The net
:07:16. > :07:20.effect and intention is to deny some people a voice at all. We
:07:20. > :07:24.invited Twitter to join us tonight, but they didn't want to give an
:07:24. > :07:27.interview. I'm joined by Caroline Criado-Perez, the journalist and
:07:27. > :07:30.equality campaigner subjected to the abuse for The Austerity
:07:30. > :07:34.Olympics as you campaign. And Claire Hardaker who has researched
:07:34. > :07:38.on-line aggression, deception and manipulation, which includes
:07:38. > :07:41.trolling, the chief executive of the open rights group which
:07:41. > :07:47.campaigns for internet freedom, and John Carr, who advises the
:07:47. > :07:50.Government on internet safety. What effect has all this had on you?
:07:50. > :07:57.been completely overwhelming. It is consuming my lifeboat physically
:07:57. > :08:01.and emotionally. I have not really had much sleep. You know the
:08:01. > :08:06.threats have been so explicit and so graphic that obviously I have,
:08:06. > :08:10.they have stuck with me in my head. And have really put me in fear, I
:08:10. > :08:15.realised actually when a journalist came to my house last night at
:08:15. > :08:23.10.15 and I just had this huge reaction of total and utter terror,
:08:23. > :08:26.in a way that I hadn't really realised I was feeling. It has been
:08:26. > :08:32.bubbling under the surface whilst feeling I'm standing up for myself.
:08:32. > :08:36.Do you feel at risk? I think, you know, as I said, consciously I'm
:08:36. > :08:40.not walking around feeling really terrified, but I think underneath
:08:40. > :08:45.the surface there is, I think I just feel under siege it has been
:08:45. > :08:48.going on for five days and it is so relentless and the threats have
:08:48. > :08:51.been so graphic and people specifically saying they will find
:08:51. > :08:55.me and people have posted what they thought was my address on-line,
:08:55. > :08:59.luckily it wasn't. The fact that they have tried to do that is
:08:59. > :09:03.really disturbing. It's almost idiotic to suggest you ignore it.
:09:03. > :09:07.But some people ignore the abuse they get on Twitter, there is
:09:07. > :09:10.obviously a line between what is abusive, what is threatening and
:09:10. > :09:13.what is possibly criminal? Absolutely. I think we need to be
:09:13. > :09:16.very, very clear about the difference between for example
:09:16. > :09:20.traditional trolling, if you want to call it that. Which is someone
:09:20. > :09:24.just trying to look for a reaction. And the kind of stuff I have been
:09:24. > :09:29.getting which has been either criminal or has been at the very
:09:29. > :09:34.least trying to shut me up and silence me, it has been not liking
:09:34. > :09:38.women having a voice. That is why I refuse to be silenced. I suppose
:09:39. > :09:43.that's one of the most shocking things to anybody who uses Twitter
:09:43. > :09:47.who is male who suddenly wakes up to the fact that there is a lot of
:09:47. > :09:52.men who hate women and use Twitter as a way of conveying is that?
:09:52. > :09:57.of the things the Internet does seem to do, is psychology shows
:09:57. > :10:01.that human being has an inherent entertainment through violence,
:10:01. > :10:05.whether linguistic or physical violence. Look at the films or
:10:05. > :10:08.television programmes we consume, computer games that are popular.
:10:08. > :10:13.One of the things the Internet does, it seems to allow those who don't
:10:13. > :10:17.just want to consume it as a form of spectacle but to engage in it.
:10:17. > :10:20.It allows that small minority the option to go in there and say
:10:20. > :10:24.something extreme and horrific. Don't they get there is a real
:10:24. > :10:28.person at the end of this? There is a lot of research that suggest it
:10:28. > :10:32.is road rage, where you can't see the person or the reaction. It is
:10:32. > :10:35.not really a human any more. It is just words on a screen. There is a
:10:35. > :10:38.lot of research to suggest that the minute there is no facial
:10:38. > :10:41.expression, body language, it stops being a human being. It is just
:10:41. > :10:45.words, it doesn't matter. And you used the word "entertainment", is
:10:45. > :10:48.this fun for some people? There is a lot of evidence to suggest that
:10:48. > :10:51.some people are doing this specifically for entertainment. It
:10:51. > :10:54.might be because they are a bit bored, it might be just to
:10:54. > :10:59.entertain a group of friends or colleagues if you want to call them
:10:59. > :11:03.that, or otherwise, it is just to kill a bit of time. Did you talk to
:11:03. > :11:06.Twitter about this today, what are they doing about it? It was
:11:06. > :11:09.actually quite a positive conversation, which is not what I
:11:09. > :11:13.was expecting given their reaction publicly up until this point.
:11:13. > :11:19.think they have been pretty slow, didn't somebody block you from
:11:19. > :11:24.Twitter? From Twitter, we contacted one of the managers at Twitter,
:11:24. > :11:30.Mark Lucky, his response telling him that this women has been saving
:11:30. > :11:36.rape threats for ten hours was to look the account. I discovered
:11:36. > :11:40.today when someone sent me a tweet that copied me in I couldn't expand
:11:40. > :11:47.the conversation because he had looked me. I can't imagine from a
:11:47. > :11:53.decent human being perspective or a publicity situation how he could be
:11:53. > :11:56.doing that. He's probably embarrassed now. Have they said
:11:56. > :11:59.anything now? They have admitted their reaction was woeful. What
:11:59. > :12:03.they said about co-operation with the police is the police had
:12:03. > :12:06.contacted them but hadn't asked about any specific handles yet.
:12:06. > :12:10.They had responded within the hour, this was yesterday, and they said
:12:10. > :12:16.the police have yet to get back to them to follow up the request.
:12:16. > :12:20.Which obviously I'm very concerned about. John, are the police, do the
:12:20. > :12:24.police take a rape threat like this on Twitter as seriously as they
:12:24. > :12:28.would if a man yelled at a woman a threat about rape? You would hope
:12:28. > :12:31.so. Part of the problem with not just this particular type of
:12:31. > :12:36.despicable crime, but many others, I'm afraid that we see on the
:12:36. > :12:40.Internet is the sheer volumes of it. At one point you were getting 50
:12:40. > :12:44.tweets per hour, imagine if that is across the whole of the twitter
:12:44. > :12:48.space, if that type of thing was going on at any scale, it would
:12:48. > :12:51.overwhelm the police's capacity. that what it is about, or is it
:12:51. > :12:54.about will to do something. There have been other cases where after
:12:54. > :12:58.there has been some publicity something has been done and before
:12:58. > :13:02.that nothing has been done? I think it is really important that the
:13:02. > :13:05.police focus, certainly on your case, because it has got such
:13:05. > :13:09.publicity. That will send out a very powerful message to the other
:13:09. > :13:14.sad individuals who are doing these types of crimes that it isn't a
:13:14. > :13:18.space where they can get away with it. But you know, the volumes are a
:13:19. > :13:23.real challenge. Twitter putting a button on the website is a good
:13:23. > :13:29.idea, but there has to be something behind the button. What are the
:13:29. > :13:34.police doing about this? Well they arrested one man, I think that was
:13:34. > :13:38.yesterday. From what they have told me they are looking into all the
:13:38. > :13:41.tweets that I'm being sent and monitoring them and trying to see
:13:41. > :13:45.who they can track down and who they should be tracking down. I'm
:13:45. > :13:49.going back to the police station tomorrow to flag up the users who
:13:49. > :13:54.have been particularly disturbing. For those people who see Twitter as
:13:54. > :13:59.really useful, great fun, perfectly innocent, normal thing to do, who
:13:59. > :14:03.whose responsibility is it to sort it out? Ultimately it has to be the
:14:03. > :14:07.police. It is helpful of course for Twitter to co-operate with the
:14:07. > :14:10.police and to do some basic things. But if we're talking about people
:14:10. > :14:13.making such serious threats then those people do need to be brought
:14:13. > :14:17.to book. They need to be investigated by the police, taken
:14:17. > :14:23.to court and punished. Because we are talking about crimes here. I
:14:23. > :14:27.think the one thing I have been a little bit disappointed with in the
:14:27. > :14:30.debate and some of the suggestions over the last few days, we were
:14:30. > :14:34.completely concentrating on Twitter's role. It wouldn't happen
:14:34. > :14:38.without Twitter. People who don't know Caroline or anybody else won't
:14:38. > :14:41.make rape threats against her, this is an enabling tool for all sorts
:14:41. > :14:45.of things including threats. Twitter has some responsibility?
:14:45. > :14:50.has, but ultimately Twitter doesn't run the police, it doesn't run
:14:50. > :14:54.courts and it doesn't have prisons. So if we actually want these people
:14:54. > :14:57.to be punished, it has to reach the police and they have to be skilled
:14:57. > :15:01.to do things. The point I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that
:15:01. > :15:04.Twitter has got nothing to do with this, this is just the people who
:15:04. > :15:09.invented movable type, anything you write is nothing to do with me,
:15:09. > :15:12.mate? No, but the problem is they are never going to be terribly good
:15:13. > :15:18.at the kind of enforcement we want from society. The sort of tools we
:15:18. > :15:22.are talking about they can be, they tend to be subjected to things like
:15:22. > :15:27.automation, the people who look at the kinds of reports tend to go
:15:27. > :15:31.very underpaid. We see this across -- tend to be very underpaid. We
:15:32. > :15:35.see this across the platform, it is police who take people to court.
:15:35. > :15:39.you buy that? I don't, at all. There are lots of technical tools
:15:39. > :15:43.you can deploy. If words like "rape" suddenly start appearing on
:15:43. > :15:46.your site they can be picked up by software. People working for
:15:46. > :15:49.Twitter can and should be looking at it checking out to see exactly
:15:49. > :15:54.what is going on. The idea that these companies can just set up
:15:54. > :15:57.these spaces and then walk away and say well police it is now down to
:15:57. > :16:01.you, we are sorry we haven't got the resources to keep this safe,
:16:01. > :16:05.you do it. That is not acceptable. Do you see this, you have
:16:05. > :16:09.researched this a lot, do you see this as a watershed moment? For me
:16:09. > :16:13.it is an important moment where it finally seems to have gotten enough
:16:13. > :16:17.momentum, if you like, on an issue apparently as mundane as Jane
:16:17. > :16:22.Austen on a note, which I'm thrilled by. For that to be a thing.
:16:22. > :16:26.It is important enough. We had the Tom Daley incident as we know, it
:16:26. > :16:29.shocked people but didn't get this response. I'm kind of hoping and I
:16:29. > :16:32.wouldn't wish this on anybody, I'm hoping this might actually be the
:16:32. > :16:36.thing that makes people sit up and think, we need to do something.
:16:36. > :16:41.you agree with that. It could potentionally be a watershed moment
:16:41. > :16:45.and changing a lot of people are thinking about it? I really hope so,
:16:45. > :16:48.because we have turned to what the police are do the police have been
:16:48. > :16:52.extremely inadequate, we have seen repeatedly they focus on high-
:16:52. > :16:56.profile cases. We were in a meeting with MPs and the MPs were saying
:16:56. > :16:59.that they talked to the police and they were unable to get a response.
:17:00. > :17:04.Some of the people talking about this campaign yesterday were saying
:17:04. > :17:08.we similar things, that they had talked to the police about it, and
:17:08. > :17:13.the police had failed to completely deal with the issue. I do find it
:17:13. > :17:16.really disturbing, absolutely, that it has taken this level of public
:17:16. > :17:19.pressure and publicity for police to act. We do know people have
:17:19. > :17:23.reported things. Certain people have got in touch with me and said
:17:23. > :17:27.I have received a rape and death threat and the police haven't done
:17:27. > :17:30.anything, can you advise me on how to make the police listen to me. I
:17:31. > :17:33.don't know what to say to them. of the things that underlines this,
:17:33. > :17:37.there is all sorts of behaviour that used to be acceptable, smoking
:17:37. > :17:41.in a pub, not wearing a seatbelt, they are completely unacceptable
:17:41. > :17:44.now, and broadly people don't do it. Some people think this is
:17:44. > :17:47.acceptable behaviour, that is more of the point, and the police have
:17:48. > :17:52.to solve various cases, but changing people's behaviour is at
:17:52. > :17:56.the root of this? Absolutely, and the Internet is still a relatively
:17:56. > :18:01.new and immature technology, it is redefining the perameters in which
:18:01. > :18:05.people can and do behave. The companies themselves cannot simply
:18:05. > :18:09.step back and say well we have done this, we have created these clever
:18:09. > :18:13.tools it is up to the state to sort out the mess we have essentially
:18:14. > :18:17.put there. I was wondering, we did some investigation on this today,
:18:17. > :18:20.it is quite possible that the person, the people who made these
:18:20. > :18:25.threats against you are watching this programme, I wondered what
:18:25. > :18:28.your, what you would like to say to them? I would like to say I think
:18:28. > :18:32.they are completely pathetic, and if they think that they are going
:18:32. > :18:35.to drive me or any other woman off the Internet they will be sorely
:18:35. > :18:40.disappointed. Do you think it will have the opposite effect? I think
:18:40. > :18:44.it will, I have had so much support, it has drowned out the threats now.
:18:45. > :18:47.So much of the support has been saying thank you so much for
:18:48. > :18:51.standing up to them. I have received this in the past and it
:18:51. > :18:55.silenced me, and I know people who have had to leave Twitter as a
:18:55. > :18:58.result of it. I'm not going to do that any more. I think it is really,
:18:59. > :19:02.really important that we make the stand and we keep shouting back.
:19:02. > :19:05.Because otherwise we let them win. There are so many more of us than
:19:05. > :19:08.there are of them. The mentions on my Twitter feed really demonstrate.
:19:08. > :19:12.That we far outnumber them, we really can win this.
:19:13. > :19:18.Thank you very much. After the killings of dozens of protesters
:19:18. > :19:22.over the weekend, there has been an uneasy calm across Egypt today, for
:19:22. > :19:27.many Egyptians and those across the Arab world the battle for the
:19:27. > :19:36.streets of Cairo and all lax Andrea is one of the defining moments of
:19:36. > :19:43.the -- Alexandria is one of the defining moments of the rising We
:19:43. > :19:49.have a report from Egypt this week. And we're joined from Cairo. This
:19:49. > :19:57.backdown by the army, is it continuing? It is, although one has
:19:57. > :20:01.to say not in the deadly form that we saw on Saturday and Sunday. What
:20:02. > :20:07.happened over the weekend was attacks on supporters of the ousted
:20:07. > :20:12.President in a stronghold in the east of this city at a mosque
:20:12. > :20:16.called Rabaa al-Adawiya. What was going on there, according to the
:20:16. > :20:20.Muslim Brotherhood, is snipers were pick off demonstrators, dozens,
:20:20. > :20:24.they say over 70 killed and hundreds wounded with aimed shots.
:20:24. > :20:30.Now the police perhaps unsurprisingly deny this, but it is
:20:30. > :20:34.clear that those sorts of numbers are in the right area for how many
:20:34. > :20:39.people were killed there. This has caused a lot of heightened tension
:20:39. > :20:44.here with supporters of strong action by the army believing now is
:20:44. > :20:52.their moment and people from the Brotherhood side of it fearing that
:20:52. > :20:56.the area around the mosque could be stormed at any moment. Today the
:20:56. > :21:03.Brotherhood said the Interior Ministry re-established its anti-
:21:03. > :21:06.extremism department, which would be one of several shadowy-type
:21:06. > :21:08.intelligence organisations taking part in the crackdown on the Muslim
:21:08. > :21:11.Brotherhood. We see daily developments which suggests the
:21:11. > :21:19.security forces are trying to push them harder and harder. Given that,
:21:19. > :21:27.what are the options for the army and how they proceed with this?
:21:27. > :21:31.mosque has become central to this Rabaa al-Adawiya in Cairo. Some
:21:31. > :21:34.people, we were talking to some who support the army and support very
:21:34. > :21:41.strong action, they talk in terms of finishing it and the security
:21:41. > :21:48.forces going in. I think it is fairly clear though that at least
:21:48. > :21:53.thus far what the army and the police forces do not want is a sort
:21:53. > :21:56.of Tiananmen Square-type action where tanks go in and cause huge
:21:56. > :21:59.loss of life around the mosque. They do understand that the
:21:59. > :22:04.Americans and others are watching and they have to play this
:22:04. > :22:08.tactically. I think there is a strong will to try to, if you like,
:22:08. > :22:14.overcome opposition there, and reclaim that area of the city, but
:22:14. > :22:18.to try to do so by a series of subtle steps or things that may be
:22:18. > :22:21.to a greater or lesser extent deniable. The Muslim Brotherhood
:22:21. > :22:24.for its part is calling on supporter, tomorrow, for example,
:22:24. > :22:28.to go down there and rally in the expectation if they bring more
:22:28. > :22:33.people down there, that could dissuade the forces from storming
:22:33. > :22:38.it. If that's indeed what they are planning. This is a lot bigger than
:22:38. > :22:43.just Egypt, many people across the Arab world see this as a key moment
:22:43. > :22:50.for the Arab Spring. Is it being seen there as the counter
:22:50. > :22:54.revolution? That is an interesting question, the fascinating thing is
:22:54. > :22:57.the number of people who support the army's action here but who
:22:57. > :23:02.still see themselves as very committed Muslims, and devout
:23:02. > :23:07.Islamists, meaning people who believe that politics and the way
:23:07. > :23:12.the country is run should be animated by the spirit of Islam and
:23:12. > :23:16.its ideas of justice and social justice and that type of ideology.
:23:16. > :23:20.You might say how could they be on the side of the army when they are
:23:20. > :23:24.doing this to the Muslim Brotherhood. There are different
:23:24. > :23:29.strains of Islam and political Islam, Salafist, people who are
:23:29. > :23:32.stronger in their religious observance than the Muslim
:23:32. > :23:36.Brotherhood originally sided with the army on the coup. They have
:23:36. > :23:39.some what distanced themselves now. Some think they will run in
:23:39. > :23:42.elections, even though they are months off and all sorts of things
:23:42. > :23:47.will happen. They will run because they want the opportunity to
:23:48. > :23:54.relieve the Muslim Brotherhood, discredited by that year in
:23:54. > :23:59.Government of their supporters. There is crude political
:23:59. > :24:02.calculation going on here. It could be the Salafist who could gain in
:24:02. > :24:10.this situation as they gained electorally in Tunisia and have
:24:10. > :24:15.done well in Libya too. As we have seen most obviously in
:24:15. > :24:18.Egypt, for years all across the Arab world various dictators and
:24:18. > :24:23.strongmen have kept radical Islamist groups in check. One of
:24:23. > :24:28.the freedoms won by the uprisings in 2011, has been for radical
:24:28. > :24:33.Islamists to operate more openly. In Tunisia, a place where the Arab
:24:33. > :24:38.Spring began, a tiny minority of fundamentalists, some violent, have
:24:38. > :24:45.mounted a major challenge to the state. We have gained a unique
:24:45. > :24:54.access to the Salafists to the coastal down of Bezerate. We went
:24:54. > :24:59.to look at who is in control. In this cafe, the coffee machine works
:24:59. > :25:04.long into the Ramadan night. But along with the coffee, he service
:25:04. > :25:11.his regulars in this ragged suburb something even stronger and sweeter.
:25:11. > :25:18.The vision of a perfect Islamic Society. It would spend the end of
:25:18. > :25:23.Tunisia as we know it. TRANSLATION: Our goal is clear to implement
:25:23. > :25:27.Sharia Law in this country and throughout the world. With Sharia
:25:27. > :25:34.people will be able to co-exist and get their rights. People say they
:25:34. > :25:39.won't get their rights through the state, but through Sharia Law.
:25:39. > :25:47.man is a Salafist, one of a growing number of Sunni Muslims who believe
:25:47. > :25:52.Islam should be practised as it was in the earliest days of the faith.
:25:52. > :25:57.In this town this year some Salafists have been imposing that
:25:57. > :26:01.morality on others, trying, it appears, to build a parallel state.
:26:01. > :26:11.A Salafist patrol demands to know what this young woman is doing
:26:11. > :26:21.
:26:21. > :26:31.alone in a shop with a man she's not related to. But in the end it
:26:31. > :26:31.
:26:31. > :26:34.doesn't matter what she thinks, she's forced to leave. Elsewhere
:26:34. > :26:40.Salafist vigilantes on a motorbike, spy a man they suspect of being
:26:40. > :26:43.drunk. He's surrounded, then the Salafist in the brown leather coat
:26:43. > :26:49.approaches and starts to beat him with a metal chain, a punishment
:26:50. > :26:54.for unIslamic behaviour. Here is another victim of the vigilantes,
:26:54. > :27:01.he says Salafists armed with swords dragged him from his car when they
:27:01. > :27:05.found him drinking beer with a friend. TRANSLATION: They were
:27:05. > :27:09.shouting Allah hu Akbar, and the swords were coming down on my head
:27:10. > :27:17.and face, I tried to protect myself with my hands, that is why I have
:27:17. > :27:22.all these cuts on them. How can this happen in this town? On a lazy
:27:22. > :27:26.summer afternoon it looks like a pretty laid back place. It is
:27:26. > :27:31.Tunisia's northern-most port, open for centuries to outside cultures,
:27:32. > :27:35.under French colonialists, and the secular dictatorship that followed,
:27:35. > :27:39.many Tunisians adopted a relaxed form of Islam, but the revolution
:27:39. > :27:49.two years ago that started the Arab Spring, reignited the struggle
:27:49. > :27:53.
:27:53. > :27:55.between liberal values and Islamic fundamentalist ones. Many saw the
:27:55. > :28:01.uprisings bringing the end of oppression and the start of
:28:01. > :28:06.democracy. It seems they only opened up the space for a more
:28:06. > :28:16.intense battle for hearts and minds, but control of the streets and what
:28:16. > :28:16.
:28:16. > :28:23.could be irreconcilable world views. Here Salafists mounted one of their
:28:23. > :28:28.most serious challenges to the state.
:28:28. > :28:33.At the centre of their network a softly spoken shopkeeper. He says
:28:33. > :28:38.he fought as a Jihadi in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like many
:28:38. > :28:45.other Salafists he was jailed when he came back to Tunisia. Then he
:28:45. > :28:50.turned his clothes can I osk into an alternative Islamic law court.
:28:50. > :28:58.More attractive to some citizens than the state's inefficient and
:28:58. > :29:03.sometimes corrupt legal system. This woman hopes he can stop her
:29:03. > :29:13.husband divorcing her, he's threatening to take the family home
:29:13. > :29:33.
:29:33. > :29:38.After she leaves we're told he sends his followers to talk to her
:29:38. > :29:42.husband. The marriage is preserved. Meanwhile the parents of a 14-year-
:29:42. > :29:52.old boy bring a man they say took their son's mobile phone and tried
:29:52. > :30:18.
:30:18. > :30:25.He says he got the phone back and now the man rarely leaves his home.
:30:25. > :30:30.Another victory for Islamic justice. With every such victory Salafism
:30:30. > :30:40.spreads. This man joined the movement after his cafe was robbed
:30:40. > :30:41.
:30:41. > :30:44.and Salafists brought the stolen goods back. TRANSLATION: People say
:30:44. > :30:48.Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, on the contrary, they
:30:49. > :30:58.are innocent, sweet as lambs. I told you they gave me back my
:30:58. > :31:03.property. But the state's been fighting back against Salafism. In
:31:03. > :31:12.this stop-and-search operation, police pick up three men, one has a
:31:12. > :31:21.cannister of pepper spray, illegal in Tunisia. Since January more than
:31:21. > :31:27.100 Salafists have been arrested here. TRANSLATION: After the
:31:27. > :31:30.revolution law and order broke down, we had to regain control, step-by-
:31:30. > :31:35.step, the state was under threat. Some groups tried to overpower it,
:31:35. > :31:43.that forced us to act, to put things back how they were before,
:31:43. > :31:51.to make you Tunisia for all Tunisians again. Last September a
:31:51. > :31:58.Salafist mob stormed the US embassy in Tunis. In February the secular
:31:58. > :32:02.opposition leader was buried after he was aasated, police say, by a
:32:02. > :32:07.militant Salafist group. -- assassinated, police say, by a
:32:07. > :32:16.militant Salafist group. There was a massive show of force to stop
:32:16. > :32:22.Salafist from holding a conference. Shortly afterwards the cafe was --
:32:22. > :32:26.the cloth kiosk was demolished. This is all that remains of the
:32:26. > :32:32.kiosk, it has been bulldozed by the authorities. He has fled, some say
:32:33. > :32:40.to Libya, some say to Mali. But the social problems that helped spread
:32:40. > :32:47.Salafism haven't gone away. But the police are now back in control.
:32:48. > :32:52.They are taking Newsnight on patrol to prove T the first man they stop
:32:52. > :32:58.has a Salafist beard. They say they don't target particular groups,
:32:58. > :33:03.only suspected criminals. We have stopped now because the police just
:33:03. > :33:06.saw a machine in a black beard, a Salafist, passing us going the
:33:06. > :33:16.other way on a motorcycle, he wouldn't stop, now they have sent
:33:16. > :33:17.
:33:17. > :33:22.other men back to try to detain him. Today they uncover a range of petty
:33:22. > :33:26.crimes, but of the 60 or so Salafists arrested since May, two
:33:26. > :33:30.face trial on the charge of attempting to replace the state.
:33:30. > :33:34.This crackdown is happening not under a secular Government, but an
:33:34. > :33:38.Islamist one. Islamists won the first free elections here, just as
:33:38. > :33:42.they did in Egypt. But the Government here now is in an
:33:42. > :33:46.awkward position. It has to reassure secularists, to avoid the
:33:46. > :33:52.chance of being toppled, as Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood was, but it also
:33:52. > :33:57.has to retain the loyalty of its own religious constituency.
:33:57. > :34:06.Protestors were out on the streets of Tunis again last week after
:34:06. > :34:15.another political killing. Of the left-wing opposition leader,.
:34:15. > :34:23.Whoever was responsible, many feel democracy is not yet secure.
:34:23. > :34:30.Back here the annual International Festival is under way. This is
:34:30. > :34:34.spiritual music, though from the relaxed souf if I tradition. --
:34:34. > :34:39.Soufi tradition. Some think Tunis is too liberal and diverse a
:34:39. > :34:43.society to be seriously destablised. But many secular Tunisians like
:34:43. > :34:52.these are still afraid that their freedoms will gradually be
:34:52. > :34:57.curtailed. Across town Salah Badrouni's last customer has gone
:34:57. > :35:07.home. He knows Salafists like him must now lie low for a while, he's
:35:07. > :35:08.
:35:08. > :35:11.not giving up. TRANSLATION: On the contrary there is no retreat, we
:35:12. > :35:16.are still going forward. Maybe we can do as much charity work now. We
:35:16. > :35:21.meet less often because some of our leaders have had to leave Tunisia.
:35:21. > :35:25.But even if we have had a setback, our sons will continue our path.
:35:25. > :35:35.Islam will keep pursuing its purpose. It won't be stopped by
:35:35. > :35:36.
:35:36. > :35:44.anything or anyone. Another night of fundamentalist-flavoured coffee
:35:44. > :35:49.is over. But the battle for the city goes on.
:35:49. > :35:54.If someone is gay and seeks the Lord, who am I to judge, the words
:35:54. > :35:57.of Pope Francis and what some have interpreted as a conciliatory move
:35:57. > :36:01.towards homosexuals. The Pope added that the problem is not having the
:36:01. > :36:05.orientation, it is lobbying, that is the most serious problem. And by
:36:05. > :36:12.lobbying Pope Francis was referring to what is said to be a gay lobby
:36:12. > :36:16.at the heart of the Vatican's administration.
:36:16. > :36:19.Two Popes, two very different styles. The previous Pontiff, both
:36:19. > :36:25.Benedict had a formal and traditional manner, contrast that
:36:25. > :36:30.with Pope Francis, more relaxed, and you get the point. Pope Francis
:36:30. > :36:35.has just travelled back from Brazil where he toured the country without
:36:35. > :36:43.bullet-proof screens and received a reception more akin to a rock star.
:36:43. > :36:46.He addressed the three-million strong audience in Copacabana Beach,
:36:46. > :36:49.the biggest audience the world has seen. He spoke to young people
:36:49. > :36:56.about harnessing their energy and creativity, he said go and don't be
:36:56. > :36:59.afraid of training. Now in a further break from tradition the
:36:59. > :37:02.Pope held an impromptu press conference for more than an hour on
:37:03. > :37:06.the journey home from the Vatican. As well as fielding questions on
:37:06. > :37:10.the roles of women, he was asked about reports of a gay lobby within
:37:10. > :37:15.the church. TRANSLATION: A lot is written about the gay loby. I still
:37:15. > :37:19.haven't seen anyone in the VAT -- lobby. I still haven't seen anyone
:37:19. > :37:24.in the Vatican with an identity card saying they are gay. The media
:37:24. > :37:28.say they are there. I think when one is found a person like this we
:37:28. > :37:33.have to distinguish between the fact that they are a gay person and
:37:33. > :37:43.the fact that there is a gay lobby. If a person is gay and seeks God
:37:43. > :37:44.
:37:44. > :37:47.and has goodwill, who am I to judge him? The comments have caused a
:37:47. > :37:52.stir, how much it will change direction in the church is unclear.
:37:52. > :37:57.Pope Francis reminded the press while homosexual orientation is not
:37:57. > :37:59.considered sinful in the Roman Catholic teaching, the homosexual
:37:59. > :38:07.acts are, the presentation is different but is the essential
:38:07. > :38:11.message the same. Joining me now is Jo Stanley, who organises a
:38:11. > :38:18.fortnightly service for gay Catholics, and the editor of the
:38:18. > :38:22.Catholic Herald. What do you make of what the Pope had to say?
:38:23. > :38:29.pudsled behind the comment about a gay lobby. But I'm very welcoming
:38:29. > :38:34.of the change in rhetoric that has come about, the headline, who am I
:38:34. > :38:38.to judge? I'm interested, you used the word "rhetoric", what does that
:38:38. > :38:45.mean in the end? It is very clear that he didn't say there was going
:38:45. > :38:51.to be any change in church teaching. We wouldn't expect him to really.
:38:51. > :38:56.But by contrast with the last Pope who was a very brilliant man but
:38:57. > :39:04.really used some extremely uncharitable language towards gay
:39:04. > :39:09.people at times. This Pope's openness and kind of
:39:09. > :39:14.approachability I think will make a huge impact on people who are gay
:39:14. > :39:19.and who are believers. What do you make of it, church teaching I think
:39:19. > :39:23.is that homosexuality is intrinsically disorders and that
:39:23. > :39:27.won't change? He wasn't changing that I don't think, but what I was
:39:27. > :39:34.very interested in was the way that his words, his humble approach,
:39:34. > :39:38.which said I'm no-one to judge, has really, the potential of changing
:39:38. > :39:44.the way our church is viewed note only by gay Catholics or by
:39:44. > :39:51.Catholics within the church but by the outside world. You know to be
:39:51. > :39:57.seen as a church that is led by a man who says I'm no-one but a
:39:57. > :40:01.humble servant of God, I'm not saying that gays are excluded, I'm
:40:01. > :40:06.in fact recognising that gays have made a contribution to my church. I
:40:06. > :40:10.think that's really important. in the secular world, when you say
:40:10. > :40:14.things it is nice mood music, but you don't actually change what you
:40:14. > :40:21.do, that is called spin? I'm not sure that you could ever accuse
:40:21. > :40:26.this one of spin. What he's trying to say is this is an inclusive
:40:26. > :40:32.church. Theologically I'm not prepared to move anything because I
:40:32. > :40:36.can't, by myself. But I am embracing you. And I think that you
:40:36. > :40:41.talk about mood music, gosh, if the mood in the Catholic Church could
:40:41. > :40:47.improve I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think you seem to agree
:40:47. > :40:51.with that. Isn't it just back to an old tradition in various Christian
:40:52. > :40:56.denominations which is, you hate the sin but you love the sinner?
:40:56. > :41:02.Yeah. I think there are a couple of things you have to realise. The
:41:03. > :41:07.first thing is this is being seen as just a discussion of home sexual
:41:07. > :41:11.acts, fundamental Christian teaches is whether you are straight or gay
:41:11. > :41:17.or transgender whatever, sex is for marriage. He's not actually, I
:41:17. > :41:24.think the church doesn't really pick out the gays as such. Jesus
:41:24. > :41:29.never talked about gays. He is just transmitting the basic Christian
:41:29. > :41:33.teaching. But it is very noticable that the language, the rhetoric,
:41:34. > :41:38.the condemnation that has focused so specifically on lesbian and gay
:41:38. > :41:44.people, over the last 30 years, has driven lots of people out of the
:41:44. > :41:49.church. Also I think it is not only a principled stand, but it is also
:41:49. > :41:52.a very traingatic stand, if the Pope were to exclude gays from the
:41:52. > :41:56.Catholic Church, we would have an emptying of the Catholic Church, we
:41:56. > :42:00.would have a hollowing out of Catholic culture, hospitals,
:42:00. > :42:05.schools, churches themselves, and I hate to say it the Vatican too,
:42:05. > :42:09.apparently. What was this gay lobby comment, which puzzled you? There
:42:09. > :42:14.has been an Italian journalist who has been investigating the Vatican
:42:14. > :42:19.over a period of months, and he has revelations, including bugged
:42:19. > :42:27.telephone calls, which show that there is a very active lobby and
:42:27. > :42:31.the head of it is allegedly gay and it is a lobby that is trying to
:42:31. > :42:39.promote not gay rights campaign, but a self-promotion within the
:42:39. > :42:43.Vatican. Whether any of this is true has yet to be proved.
:42:43. > :42:47.Uncontestably to be proved. But what we are certain of is this Pope
:42:47. > :42:51.is saying it is not because there is a gay element to this lobby that
:42:51. > :42:56.I'm against them. It is the fact that there is machinations and
:42:56. > :43:01.plotting which is something he doesn't like. There is a number of
:43:01. > :43:11.politicians feeling the same in our own beloved country. Paul Mason has
:43:11. > :43:17.been scouring the trollisphere looking for reaction to the item on
:43:17. > :43:22.the Twitter and rape threats. last night and the arrest was made,
:43:22. > :43:26.we have been looking at it all day, and the tapering down of overt rape
:43:26. > :43:31.threats against the people involved, the MPs and campaigners. Small in
:43:31. > :43:36.number, but as we saw earlier very distressed. We have had one tonight
:43:36. > :43:40.an overt rape threat and death thread against an MP named. I'm not
:43:40. > :43:43.going to bother reading it out, graphic, the person is taunting the
:43:43. > :43:49.police or Twitter, you haven't taken my account down yet, when you
:43:49. > :43:59.are going to do it. That is there. The problem is tracking them down.
:43:59. > :44:00.
:44:00. > :44:06.I think we had six hours of human intelligence to track our one.
:44:06. > :44:12.@beware 008. That has been named by Stella Creasy as a complaint to
:44:12. > :44:18.Waltham stow police. It took us six hours to try to find where he is,
:44:18. > :44:22.if not identify the person. The police are up against a huge task
:44:22. > :44:27.here. But the information coming from those dealing with Twitter,
:44:27. > :44:30.Twitter haven't been able to speak to us. They will have to up their
:44:30. > :44:34.game tomorrow? The information coming out of Twitter via third
:44:34. > :44:39.party sources is Twitter don't believe the police have begun to
:44:39. > :44:44.ask them for their accounts. (beep) there is another one going up there.
:44:44. > :44:49.You see two institutions, one of which is deeply rooted in the on-
:44:49. > :44:52.line world suddenly hit by craziness, and another one deeply
:44:52. > :44:57.confused by the on-line world and yet as the papers you are about to
:44:57. > :45:01.see, if that was a note Twitter, rape threat to MP, if it was a