:00:14. > :00:19.storm after Newsnight investigated abuse on Twitter last night, there
:00:19. > :00:24.has been an arrest of a 25-year-old man from South Shields. We will
:00:24. > :00:28.have the latest. Having hidden from the press for so long, we will hear
:00:28. > :00:32.from Twitter's head of trust and safety from California. We will
:00:32. > :00:39.speak to Stella Cerasy an MP subject to the most vile abuse
:00:39. > :00:44.herself and a Twitter enthusiast, Toby Young, who says in most cases
:00:44. > :00:51.the trolls should be ignored. The biggest breach of classified
:00:51. > :00:56.information in America in history, Bradley Manning handed out secret
:00:56. > :01:01.information of over 700 classified files. He was found not guilty of
:01:01. > :01:06.aiding the enemy, but as he faces the rest of his life in prison, is
:01:06. > :01:09.he a hero or martyr. We will hear from whistleblowerer Adniel
:01:09. > :01:14.Ellsberg. Does this look deslate to you,
:01:14. > :01:19.there is a fracas about fracking after an MP from the Deep South
:01:19. > :01:25.offered his view about the north- east. There are large uninhabited
:01:25. > :01:30.and desolate areas in the north- east where there is plenty of move
:01:30. > :01:33.for fracking. The Brazilian musician and former Culture
:01:33. > :01:43.Minister, Gilberto Gil, on whether his country's great dream of
:01:43. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :01:51.progress and prosperity has begun to come apart. Good evening,
:01:51. > :01:56.following Newsnight's investigation last night of rape threats and
:01:56. > :02:00.other abuse on Twitter, there has been an arrest of a 25-year-old man
:02:00. > :02:03.from South Shields. We tracked down an alleged Twitter troll to an
:02:03. > :02:08.address in the area. The rape threats against Caroline Criado-
:02:08. > :02:12.Perez are just part of the many obscene abusive and sometimes vile
:02:12. > :02:16.lent tweets directed at some women in public life by abusers. We will
:02:16. > :02:20.hear from another one of their targets, the Labour MP, Stella
:02:20. > :02:24.Cerasy in a moment. After avoiding interviews for the past few days we
:02:24. > :02:27.will also hear from a Twitter executive from California. First,
:02:27. > :02:32.Paul Mason on this evening's developments. What has been
:02:32. > :02:36.happening? Over the weekend it took me and another journalist about 12
:02:36. > :02:42.hours over two days to assemble the evidence that linked one of the
:02:42. > :02:47.Twitter accounts that had threatened to rape the two women
:02:47. > :02:53.involved and an internet connection in South Shields in the north-east.
:02:53. > :02:57.So it took quite a long time to do that, the evidence was not straight
:02:57. > :03:01.forward, but we thought compelling. I have spent the afternoon
:03:01. > :03:04.conveying that evidence and explaining it to Northumbria Police,
:03:05. > :03:09.and tonight, as a result of Newsnight's investigation a 25-
:03:09. > :03:13.year-old man in South Shields, as you say, has been arrested on
:03:13. > :03:18.suspicion of harassment as part of the Met's investigation into the
:03:18. > :03:23.attacks on the two women. That case is subdued now and nothing more can
:03:23. > :03:27.be said about it. Secondly that hasn't stopped abuse, another MP
:03:27. > :03:30.has received a direct rape and murder threat, from the same person
:03:30. > :03:33.who was playing cat and mouse, it looks like, last night with the
:03:33. > :03:37.police, saying come on close me down. It shows how hard it is both
:03:37. > :03:41.for Twitter and for the police to even trace somebody like that.
:03:41. > :03:45.Given how hard it was for untrained police people to get their heads
:03:45. > :03:48.around what it is that links one account with another. Now in the
:03:48. > :03:53.course of doing this, it is fairly clear the police are stretched, the
:03:53. > :03:57.detectives who are having to pick up these cases in different parts
:03:57. > :04:02.of Britain are not necessarily the ones who have been trained to do
:04:02. > :04:05.the usual stuff, the stuff aimed at child abusers and porn. It is not
:04:05. > :04:09.necessarily those people who have to pick this up. It can be quite
:04:09. > :04:13.hard for the resources to be assembled. I think that's why the
:04:13. > :04:17.police keep emphasising, they would like Twitter to sort it out.
:04:17. > :04:20.spent the day almost on the trail of a technological solution, as we
:04:20. > :04:27.will see it is not that easy but there are bossablities, in the
:04:27. > :04:31.process we had to talk to some of the called "trolls" who do this. We
:04:31. > :04:37.have expunged all offensive and swearing. We have had to use some
:04:37. > :04:39.of the bad language because that is the language these people speak in.
:04:39. > :04:43.Since high-profile British women got hit with rape threats on
:04:43. > :04:48.Twitter, many of us have seen our timelines filled with shocking
:04:48. > :04:53.abuse and imagery, prompting a very practical question. Just what do
:04:53. > :04:57.you do if your internet timeline on social media gets suddenly swamped
:04:57. > :05:01.with people threatening rape or using extreme imagery of sexual
:05:01. > :05:05.violence, and who are they? I have been talking to the trolls, to
:05:05. > :05:10.people who have studied them and to those trying to come up with a
:05:10. > :05:16.technical solution. Quinn Norton is a US journalist who has studied the
:05:16. > :05:21.trolls and been harassed by them. She thinks demands by Twitter to
:05:21. > :05:25.suspend the accounts won't be enough. It is easy with a basic
:05:25. > :05:29.understanding of programming to autogenerate tonnes of accounts,
:05:29. > :05:34.endlessly, and there isn't really a good way of stopping them. There is
:05:34. > :05:37.so many tools of getting around all the ways to stop. That the best
:05:37. > :05:42.thing to do is let them have their account and to block that account
:05:42. > :05:47.so that you don't see it. Because if you remove that account they are
:05:47. > :05:51.motivated to come back 10,000 fold. When I showed her some of the
:05:51. > :05:56.abusers on my timeline, though we work on different continents, she
:05:56. > :06:00.recognised two immediately as part of a hardcore that had harassed her,
:06:00. > :06:04.prompting the question why not ban them? The social problem is men are
:06:04. > :06:07.raised to hate women. And technology is not going to fix that,
:06:07. > :06:11.what is what will fix that is a societal conversation about why
:06:11. > :06:14.that is and why it shouldn't be. the I was contacted by one of the
:06:14. > :06:24.people involved in directing hardcore rape jokes at women. I had
:06:24. > :06:52.
:06:52. > :06:57.But there are technical solution, blogger Rebecca Watson had a bad
:06:57. > :07:01.experience at a conference two years ago. 4.00 am I said I had
:07:01. > :07:06.enough guys and I'm going to bed. I walked to the elevator and a man
:07:06. > :07:09.got on with me and said don't take this the wrong way but I find you
:07:09. > :07:15.very interesting and I would like to talk more, would you like to
:07:15. > :07:20.come to my hotel room for coffee. Just a word to the wise here, guys,
:07:20. > :07:24.don't do that. For saying this she was deluged with abuse on Twitter,
:07:24. > :07:28.in response her supporters set up a programme that monitors and blocks
:07:28. > :07:34.a shared list of abusers, and the man who wrote it talked me through
:07:34. > :07:38.the installation. I will just block the super slimey, the Washington
:07:38. > :07:42.Post. The block works by blocking a list of offenders that is
:07:42. > :07:47.constantly updated by a community, it uses Twitter's own technology,
:07:47. > :07:52.that prompts another question. Why don't Twitter implement what you
:07:52. > :07:56.have done as part of Twitter? question. They certainly could do
:07:56. > :08:00.easily, they have shared lists for following people, they could easily
:08:00. > :08:03.have the ability that people who can create shared lists for
:08:03. > :08:07.blocking people that would be possible. Why don't they?They are
:08:07. > :08:11.so changing their platform, as an IT person I understand why, in
:08:11. > :08:14.terms of keeping stability and the cost of doing that. They have to be
:08:14. > :08:17.very careful they maintain the service. Those who have been around
:08:17. > :08:21.a long time remember when the whole internet was predominantly male,
:08:21. > :08:28.and there are some social media sites now openly struggling to be
:08:28. > :08:32.representative. If you look at other on-line communities, Redet
:08:32. > :08:35.that is predominant low young white males, there is no marginalised
:08:35. > :08:43.groups left there. There is a considerable lack of women and
:08:43. > :08:47.people of colour. Why?These voices don't get heard. Why?I guess and I
:08:48. > :08:51.will get completely flaipltd now, there is racist abuse there,
:08:51. > :08:56.homophobia, mysogynistic abuse there. Why as a woman would you
:08:56. > :09:00.want to go there to get demeaned and put down for being a woman.
:09:00. > :09:03.Twitter, slow to act in the crisis, there is an existential question,
:09:04. > :09:08.it is nothing to do with the blocking mechanism, it is simply
:09:08. > :09:13.are they prepared to see their part of cyberspace become essentially
:09:13. > :09:20.white and male? For a company set to take a billion dollars next year,
:09:20. > :09:24.driven by advertising, that is quite a question.
:09:24. > :09:27.Del Harvey is head of Twitter's trust and safety, I spoke to her
:09:27. > :09:31.from California before we came on air. The British politician, Stella
:09:31. > :09:35.Cerasy, has been repeatedly told on Twitter that she will be raped, why
:09:35. > :09:40.have you done so very little about it? To back up and give you a
:09:40. > :09:45.little bit of context about who I am and why I'm the person here
:09:45. > :09:52.talking to you, along with what's actually so far in this, I'm Del
:09:52. > :09:56.Harvey, I head up the Trust and Safety Department at Twitter, the
:09:56. > :10:00.department to handle users' safety and the like. I have been at
:10:00. > :10:05.Twitter for five years. The CV is very interesting can we move on,
:10:05. > :10:11.why have you done so very little about the threats of rape to a
:10:11. > :10:16.British Labour politician? I think that there is perhaps a Misper
:10:16. > :10:24.exception of how we responded. When we were made aware of the issue
:10:24. > :10:28.over the weekend we had reached out privately to the parties involved,
:10:28. > :10:32.we have been talking with them and with law enforcement. We have been
:10:32. > :10:36.engaged in active dialogue since this weekend and we have been
:10:36. > :10:39.continuing that dialogue. feminist campaigner, Caroline
:10:39. > :10:43.Criado-Perez told me last night that when she complained about rape
:10:43. > :10:49.threats she was blocked by one of your managers. Why would you do
:10:49. > :10:54.that? I can't speak to the details of why he would do that, or what
:10:54. > :11:00.that would mean for him or what that situation was but I can say
:11:00. > :11:04.that's...Is It acceptable in Twitter when someone complains
:11:04. > :11:08.about rape threats for a Twitter executive to block them, is that
:11:08. > :11:11.acceptable to you? I would much rather they tell the person how to
:11:12. > :11:15.report the threat. You going to discipline this guy? He's not in my
:11:15. > :11:19.department, I know we are certainly talking about what happened and why
:11:19. > :11:23.we, quite frankly, didn't provide him with the guidance on what he
:11:23. > :11:29.should do in a situation like that. The thing is, I'm talking to you
:11:29. > :11:33.about rape threats to women and you're talking corporate jiberish?
:11:33. > :11:36.I'm certainly not trying to. The fact of the matter is we do work
:11:36. > :11:41.with law enforcement on issues like these, these sorts of threats are
:11:41. > :11:44.against the rules. We suspend accounts when they are reported to
:11:44. > :11:48.us, we are working to make it easier to report those accounts. We
:11:48. > :11:53.think this is really important. I have spent the majority of my
:11:53. > :11:58.career working on issues tied to this. Before Twitter I worked with
:11:58. > :12:03.domestic violence victims and rape victims, along with law enforcement
:12:03. > :12:07.on the on-line abuse cases, this is something that is so important to
:12:07. > :12:10.us and we care about getting right. If it is so important why are you
:12:11. > :12:16.so slow, why do the women involved say the response is inadequate, why
:12:17. > :12:21.does shadow Home Secretary here say it is inadequate, why is it so
:12:21. > :12:23.inadequate? Part of the challenge is we have a really wide variety I
:12:23. > :12:27.have a bues cases on Twitter. From everything from somebody following
:12:27. > :12:31.someone who they want to see their tweet to someone trying to raise
:12:31. > :12:35.attention to human rights issues, and these sort of changes around
:12:35. > :12:40.how we can make it easier for people to report abuse, we also
:12:40. > :12:43.have to make sure we are building in protections to make sure people
:12:43. > :12:47.aren't being silenced at the same time. How many people do you employ
:12:47. > :12:53.to sort out these very serious threats of sexual violence towards
:12:53. > :12:57.women? There is actually dozens of people in the Trust and Safety Team,
:12:57. > :13:02.which is worth rembering that Twitter is a case with the company
:13:02. > :13:06.got outleapt a bit by the brand and the use of it. The use of Twitter,
:13:06. > :13:10.the countries it is used in, the way it took off like a rocket ship
:13:10. > :13:13.and we are trying to make sure we have everything right that we need
:13:14. > :13:17.to make sure people feel safe on that rocket ship, so to speak.
:13:17. > :13:22.Caroline Criado-Perez said that she hopes what happened to her and to
:13:22. > :13:25.other women here will be a wake-up call to you, I'm just trying to
:13:25. > :13:29.figure out where the wake up is happening. How are you waking up?
:13:29. > :13:35.We have a number of things that we had in development, for example we
:13:35. > :13:39.had launched about three weeks ago the ability to report a tweet from
:13:39. > :13:43.the actual tweet itself on IOS and mobile. This was really underscored
:13:43. > :13:46.to us the need to really push to get that out to all parts of the
:13:46. > :13:51.platform. Because it is really clear that people aren't aware that
:13:51. > :13:55.we do have rules. It is not OK to harass people, it is not OK to
:13:55. > :14:00.threaten them with violence. said you have got dozenss of people
:14:00. > :14:04.working on this, there are 400 million tweets every day, surely it
:14:04. > :14:08.can't be enough? That is part of the reason that users have to
:14:08. > :14:12.report to us as well. That is actually an issue that happens on
:14:12. > :14:22.any platform at scale. Users have to say this is what happened this
:14:22. > :14:27.is not OK. It would be great to prevent abuse before it starts. We
:14:27. > :14:31.have automatic systems that look for spam and take action. But there
:14:31. > :14:34.is always the challenge of context that you can't always get in 140
:14:34. > :14:38.characters, which is why we need users to report. A number of
:14:38. > :14:42.British MPs have a lot of questions they would like to put to Twitter,
:14:42. > :14:46.will you put up perhaps yourself or someone senior from Twitter to come
:14:46. > :14:50.to the United Kingdom and discuss this formally with British Members
:14:50. > :14:54.of Parliament? I haven't heard personally about the request, but
:14:54. > :14:57.we're absolutely open for discussion. This is an area that
:14:57. > :15:02.we're already working with law enforcement, we welcome feedback in
:15:02. > :15:08.terms of areas where they have heard complaints or criticisms. It
:15:08. > :15:11.is really genuinely important to me that we get this right. I can't
:15:11. > :15:16.really underscore that enough. I don't want people to think that we
:15:16. > :15:21.don't take it seriously. Just a final thought, one Conservative
:15:21. > :15:24.woman MP, Claire Perry said she thought about quitting Twitter over
:15:24. > :15:27.this, a number of women have suggested that is a route they
:15:27. > :15:32.considered too. Do you worry that the whole future of Twitter here is
:15:32. > :15:37.in the balance in the sense that you might become just a place where
:15:37. > :15:45.angry men sound off about women and women just don't want to know
:15:45. > :15:49.Twitter? Honestly the biggest thing I worry about is users think we
:15:49. > :15:53.don't care no matter what the abuse they are experiencing or the issue
:15:53. > :15:56.they have. Whether it is this or 100 other things, I want people to
:15:56. > :15:59.understand that we welcome their feedback and guidance on what they
:15:59. > :16:04.are feeling and how we can make it better for them.
:16:04. > :16:09.Thank you very much for joining us, thank you.
:16:09. > :16:15.Stella Cerasy is here, a Labour MP who has been a target of some of
:16:15. > :16:21.the vile threats. And Toby Young, a Twitter enthusiast who has argued
:16:21. > :16:24.blocking and ignoring the abusers is the way forward. What did you
:16:24. > :16:29.make of what you heard there about Twitter saying they are trying to
:16:29. > :16:32.do their best? It is frustrating for those affected that we are
:16:32. > :16:36.hearing different stories from the police and Twitter. It is not the
:16:36. > :16:40.platform itself making people persistently doing this, I'm still
:16:40. > :16:44.receiving rape and death threats today, it is people who are idiots
:16:44. > :16:48.and people who may well be escalating in their violence and
:16:48. > :16:51.aggression towards women. I need to see Twitter working with the law
:16:51. > :16:55.enforcement agencies when you have a serious threat of violence and
:16:55. > :17:01.aggression towards somebody, the way I have experienced, and
:17:01. > :17:06.Caroline and now several members in parliament are experiencing.
:17:06. > :17:11.you encouraged by what you heard from Del Harvey? I was encouraged
:17:11. > :17:17.last night hearing from her but that was four days after, and we
:17:17. > :17:21.were blocked by staff. She has admitted offline she felt it wasn't
:17:21. > :17:25.got right, and my concern is getting it right in the UK, this is
:17:25. > :17:28.about violence against women and this new platform against with this
:17:28. > :17:32.old crime. What about Twitter and the way they are trying to respond
:17:32. > :17:36.to it, it is very difficult for them, she made that quite clear?
:17:36. > :17:42.Twitter's defence at least they have a Trust and Safety Division,
:17:42. > :17:49.manned by human beings. The way Facebook deals with abuse is
:17:49. > :17:56.entirely computerised, if a user is flagged up enough as abusive, there
:17:56. > :18:03.is a mathematical sum that bans them. People can abuse the process
:18:03. > :18:06.by flagging up people who they politically disagree with and get
:18:06. > :18:11.them off. If they are getting somewhere it is very, very slow?
:18:11. > :18:15.That is partly because they are so overwhelmed by reports of abuse.
:18:15. > :18:19.Twitter is used by tens of hundreds of millions people around the world,
:18:19. > :18:22.there are lots and lots of trolls out there. There must be reports of
:18:22. > :18:26.I have a bows that Twitter is being deluged with. Let's talk about the
:18:26. > :18:29.way you both deal with this, you deal with it, you have complained,
:18:29. > :18:33.but you also retweet some of the tweets, you are followed by a lot
:18:33. > :18:36.of people, 32,000 people, some of these rather sad cases are not
:18:36. > :18:40.followed by anybody, however offensive it is you are giving them
:18:40. > :18:44.a megaphone aren't you? I use a range of ways to deal with people
:18:44. > :18:48.who behave in offensive and abusive ways on Twitter, sometimes I will
:18:48. > :18:52.send them pictures of kittens because that is the level of debate
:18:52. > :18:56.they deserve. As Toby knows when he has crossed a line I will retweet
:18:56. > :19:00.issues and say I will challenge and call you out and say is this
:19:00. > :19:04.acceptable behaviour. This is illegal, if someone walked up in
:19:04. > :19:08.the street and someone said they would rape me, as people have on
:19:08. > :19:13.Twitter over the last few days, I would dial 999. We mustn't think
:19:13. > :19:17.because it happens on-line it is less serious. 50% of stalking cases
:19:17. > :19:21.involve both own and off line harassment. These people are not
:19:21. > :19:24.letting go, they need to understand neither are we in treating it
:19:24. > :19:27.seriously. You are saying in most cases you can ignore it? I don't
:19:27. > :19:31.have a problem at all with Stella reporting people who threaten her
:19:31. > :19:35.with violence to the police, and I'm not surprised she's cross that
:19:35. > :19:39.Twitter are not doing more to co- operate with the British police to
:19:39. > :19:42.pursue those people. That is totally understandable. What I'm
:19:42. > :19:46.nervous about is something Stella said to me earlier which is she had
:19:46. > :19:51.a conversation with a woman you just interviewed in which she
:19:51. > :19:55.persuaded her to include the word "harassment" in Twitter's abuse
:19:55. > :19:59.policy, therefore hence forth anyone guilty of harassment will be
:19:59. > :20:02.banned from Twitter. That is a vague and elastic term and open to
:20:02. > :20:08.abuse. The worrying thing about Twitter responding to a complaint
:20:08. > :20:12.by a British politician, in a way which is likely to lead to more
:20:12. > :20:16.sensorous behaviour on Twitter, what do they do if a Chinese
:20:16. > :20:23.politician makes a complaint and wants a change of policy. Saying it
:20:23. > :20:27.is a bit of a wild west and even blocking it doesn't make it go
:20:27. > :20:31.away? It was about particular types of harassment, you can't have it
:20:31. > :20:35.both ways, you can't say they have a manned system to look at the
:20:35. > :20:38.cases so they have a clarity about what harassment is, and then say
:20:38. > :20:41.they shouldn't deal with harassment. I talk about things under the
:20:41. > :20:46.protection of harassment act illegal in this country, they have
:20:46. > :20:50.to have a process in dealing with people get a warning, that is fair,
:20:50. > :20:53.isn't it Toby? Twitter should definitely be held to account for
:20:53. > :20:57.not enforcing its own abuse policy. I read the policy on the way here,
:20:57. > :21:00.it includes not allowing local users to break local laws, you are
:21:00. > :21:03.perfectly right to say they should co-operate with the police if you
:21:03. > :21:09.want people to be prosecuted for breaking harassment laws, what I
:21:09. > :21:17.don't want Twitter to do to go beyond enforcing its existing
:21:17. > :21:22.policies and introduce more censorous policies which would lead
:21:22. > :21:26.to a cleaned up place which isn't what we know and love. Do you agree
:21:26. > :21:32.it is not a technical problem but the way some men behave and our
:21:32. > :21:36.society, and you won't fix that by going to Twitter? We have to call
:21:36. > :21:41.it out and having a process that says if you continue to behave in
:21:41. > :21:44.this way you will face consequences. We need police at a local and
:21:44. > :21:48.national level understand the risks coming from on-line behaviour and
:21:48. > :21:53.how it manifests offline. This is about taking violence against women
:21:53. > :21:57.seriously, Toby I don't think you understand here, nobody is talking
:21:57. > :22:00.stopping you making comments about MPs tits, I would hope you would
:22:00. > :22:05.stop on your own. We are talking about the right to contact people
:22:05. > :22:11.who say offensive and abusive things and there is no recourse for
:22:11. > :22:14.this, Twitter doesn't have a clear line about this and they need to
:22:14. > :22:19.get one. You are saying Twitter needs to jump on anybody being
:22:19. > :22:25.offensive and abusive about women, but ignore people being offensive
:22:25. > :22:29.and abusive towards men. When did I say that. You want to enlist
:22:29. > :22:33.Twitter in your campaign to re- educate men and make them less
:22:33. > :22:36.sexist. Actually I said I would really hope you would get to the
:22:36. > :22:40.21st century and stop tweeting about women's tits in parliament,
:22:40. > :22:43.that is what I said, I also said it is good that Twitter has a proposal
:22:43. > :22:46.where people will look at reports of abuse. What I asked Twitter to
:22:46. > :22:50.do on Monday night was give data and understanding about reports
:22:50. > :22:53.they get so we understand the level of difficulties they are dealing
:22:53. > :22:56.with. The problem you are not facing up to if you do persuade
:22:56. > :23:01.Twitter, if you do enlist Twitter in this political cause of yours,
:23:01. > :23:05.it will be harder for Twitter to resist when they are called up and
:23:05. > :23:10.brow beaten by Chinese politicians or Saudi politicians who try to
:23:10. > :23:15.enlist them in their political cause. You said it is about local
:23:15. > :23:18.laws, harassment is illegal, we have strengthened the laws about
:23:18. > :23:23.stalking. You are rather inconsistent, you want to defend it
:23:23. > :23:27.as a no man's land what everybody says goes or it is not accountable,
:23:27. > :23:31.which is it. If you include the word "harass" in the abuse policy,
:23:31. > :23:35.which you said you persuaded them to do, after a two-hour
:23:35. > :23:38.conversation, that they will go beyond simply asking local users
:23:38. > :23:42.toe abide. There is a legal definition, you know that don't you.
:23:42. > :23:46.It is already in Twitter the's abuse policy to stop people abusing
:23:46. > :23:51.local laws, why do they need to add the word "harass", it sounds like
:23:51. > :23:55.you want them to go beyond it and enlist it in a political campaign.
:23:55. > :23:59.It could lead in not in all cases to be banned but accounts suspended.
:23:59. > :24:04.I'm concerned about it takes me as a British MP to have this change.
:24:04. > :24:08.We haven't got more than 140 characters left. Did you, by any
:24:08. > :24:14.chance tweet about women's tits in parliament? It wasn't my proudest
:24:14. > :24:18.moment, I asked who a particular MP, who one couldn't see the head of
:24:18. > :24:23.but sitting behind Ed Miliband wearing a low-cut dress, I
:24:23. > :24:26.committed the sin of noticing it, that constitutes harassment in some
:24:26. > :24:30.people's views. You can Israel read more of Paul
:24:30. > :24:37.Mason's thoughts and whether there is a tech solution to trolling and
:24:37. > :24:44.what steps he has himself taken on his blog. Still to come: There are
:24:44. > :24:47.large and Ince habited and desolate areas in -- and uninhabited and
:24:47. > :24:53.desolate areas in parts of the north-east where there is plenty of
:24:53. > :24:59.room for fracking. Whoops! Now the case against Bradley Manning was
:24:59. > :25:03.simple, he made public through WikiLeaks the biggest trove of
:25:03. > :25:08.classified information ever, in defiance of his military oath and
:25:08. > :25:13.the law. He as, as the prosecution said, a traiter. The case for him
:25:13. > :25:18.is the files did not put US security at risk but did embarrass
:25:18. > :25:23.the Government. He was a young, niave, good-intentioned sold yes, a
:25:23. > :25:27.whistleblower not a traitor. We will examine both sides of the
:25:27. > :25:31.argument. What is not in doubt is a court has found him guilty of most
:25:31. > :25:39.of the charges against him though not the most serious. He can expect
:25:39. > :25:45.to spend the rest of his life behind bars. This footage was never
:25:45. > :25:48.meant to be seen by you or me, it is from Baghdad 2007 when a US air
:25:48. > :25:54.crew killed a dozen people, including two journalists. Come on
:25:54. > :25:57.fire. It came to light in the biggest leak of classified
:25:57. > :26:01.information in US history, including almost half a million
:26:02. > :26:06.pages of war reports from Iraq and Afghanistan.-And-a-quarter of a
:26:07. > :26:11.million state department cables. -- and 250,000 state department cables.
:26:11. > :26:16.We learned in 2009 America's ambassador in Kabul described the
:26:16. > :26:20.Afghan President as a "paranoid and weak individual", that the US
:26:21. > :26:25.planned to spy on UK secretary- general, Ban Ki-Moon, and that logs
:26:25. > :26:31.from the Iraq War suggested 15,000 more civilian deaths than the US
:26:31. > :26:34.Government had acknowledged. Prosecutors and many of his
:26:34. > :26:40.countrymen called the young soldier, Bradley Manning, a traitor. His
:26:40. > :26:46.supporters said he was a niave but well-intentioned wibble. He himself
:26:46. > :26:50.admitted ten -- whistleblower, he himself admitted to ten of the
:26:50. > :26:54.charges against him, and said he wanted to start a true debate
:26:54. > :26:58.against war and foreign policy. Today at a military base 25-year-
:26:58. > :27:01.old Manning gave no reaction as the verdicts were read out by the
:27:01. > :27:06.military judge. Manning was convicted of 20 out of 22 charges,
:27:06. > :27:12.including six under the Espionage Act. Crucially he was acquitted of
:27:12. > :27:16.the most serious charge of aiding the enemy, which he always denied.
:27:16. > :27:24.Prosecutors said he helped American enemies because files he leaked
:27:24. > :27:31.were allegedly found on discs at Osama Bin Laden's compound.
:27:31. > :27:37.fact that he might be used to embolden future whistleblowers, I
:27:37. > :27:41.don't think that, he faces a century-and-a-half in prison.
:27:41. > :27:45.Future wibbles there will be. The Government -- whistleblowers there
:27:45. > :27:49.will be. The Government is concerned about it and they
:27:49. > :27:57.levelled the aiding the enemy charge against Bradley Manning to
:27:57. > :28:01.set a precedent. I wonder what he's thinking now, Edward Snowden, the
:28:01. > :28:08.US spy who leaked his Government's clandestine surveillance of
:28:08. > :28:12.civilians and is now in his sixth week here in a transit hotel in
:28:12. > :28:16.Moscow seeking asylum somewhere in the world. He's being helped by
:28:16. > :28:22.Julian Assange, himself holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London,
:28:22. > :28:26.and who put Bradley Manning's treasure trove on-line. Tonight on
:28:26. > :28:29.Twitter WikiLeaks called the convictions dangerous national
:28:29. > :28:36.security extremism from the Obama administration. Some think the
:28:36. > :28:39.White House has more than the whistleblowers in its sights they
:28:39. > :28:42.recently accused a Fox News reporter of being a co-conspirator
:28:42. > :28:48.after he reported classified information from a state department
:28:48. > :28:54.source. The first amendment of our constitution says freedom of speech
:28:54. > :28:57.and the press. The courts have determined that speech covers
:28:58. > :29:02.whistleblowers, and the press it speaks for itself. What we are
:29:02. > :29:09.seeing in some of these prosecutions and investigations is
:29:09. > :29:15.a war against the first amendment. A chilling effect on the right of
:29:15. > :29:19.Americans to inform their Government, their fellow citizens,
:29:19. > :29:23.appropriate officials, of official misconduct. Senators will soon
:29:23. > :29:26.debate new laws protecting journalists, but not people like
:29:26. > :29:29.Bradley Manning, who the Government considers a traitor. He left court
:29:29. > :29:33.knowing he might have started a debate about Freedom of Information,
:29:33. > :29:40.but with a hefty prison sentence expected tomorrow, it may not be a
:29:40. > :29:45.debate he can be part of. Adniel Ellsberg is a whistleblower
:29:45. > :29:50.who famously leaked the Pentagon papers in 1971, which revealed
:29:50. > :29:55.details of the American actions during the Vietnam War. With us in
:29:55. > :30:03.Washington DC is David Rivkin, a former White House attorney serving
:30:03. > :30:09.under Reagan and President Bush. Daniel Ellsberg do you think this
:30:09. > :30:13.is a just verdict against Bradley Manning? I think it is
:30:13. > :30:17.unconstitutional when applied to whistleblowering and unauthorised
:30:18. > :30:22.disclosures to the public. I was the first person who faced the
:30:22. > :30:26.charge and the leading attorney of the day said that the law was
:30:26. > :30:31.clearly unconstitutional in that unprecedented use. I would say that
:30:31. > :30:36.the law of the constitution hasn't changed, no legislation has changed.
:30:36. > :30:40.The legal climate has changed so it is less likely that the view would
:30:40. > :30:44.prevail in the Supreme Court today. It was absolutely right. He should
:30:44. > :30:47.have not faced those charges or those views at all. Do you see him
:30:48. > :30:53.then, people see him as a demonstrator, some people do, how
:30:53. > :30:58.do you view him? I think it is outrageous for an American under
:30:58. > :31:01.our constitution to use that term, you know, it is a term, it is the
:31:01. > :31:05.only crime defined in our constitution to limit it to what it
:31:05. > :31:12.was from what it was in the British Empire. That was because the people
:31:12. > :31:16.who founded our constitution were traitors in the eyes of ING Emperor
:31:16. > :31:20.George III. We were founded by traitors, they didn't want a law
:31:20. > :31:24.criticising the King or the Government was treasonous, they
:31:24. > :31:28.made the constitution that way, therefore Bradley Manning was not
:31:28. > :31:33.charged with traesson formally, he couldn't be, because our deaf --
:31:33. > :31:37.trees son, he couldn't be, because it means you have to adhere to the
:31:37. > :31:45.enemies of the United States, and it is clear he didn't do that to
:31:45. > :31:55.Al-Qaeda or the Taliban, as much as I didn't to the vet con. The
:31:55. > :31:56.
:31:56. > :32:00.prosecution admitted itself itself to use that. Outrageous. Bradley
:32:00. > :32:08.Manning has been compared to the founding fathers of the United
:32:08. > :32:11.States of America? Rubbish, there is a technical definition of
:32:12. > :32:16.treason in the constitution, that is about the only thing that Mr
:32:16. > :32:24.Ellsberg is right about, that Mr Manning does not meet. The notion
:32:24. > :32:30.that espionage laws and other laws that bar disclosure of classified
:32:30. > :32:33.information utterly misleads the existing juris prudence, it is not
:32:33. > :32:38.worth debating as it is for constitutional lawyers. I'm not a
:32:38. > :32:43.lawyer, but I was the first person charged with that, and Mr Rivkin
:32:43. > :32:47.doesn't know what he's talking about. If I may. Mr Rivkin. If I
:32:47. > :32:51.can talk about it. If it hadn't been for Bradley Manning we
:32:51. > :32:55.wouldn't have found out all the details of the mistreatment of
:32:55. > :32:58.Iraqi prisoners, that may be embarrassing to the United States,
:32:58. > :33:08.but surely that is something with the people of the United States
:33:08. > :33:08.
:33:08. > :33:14.would wish to know? It is criminal. Go ahead. We are a nation of laws
:33:14. > :33:17.and not men. We are a Republic, a democracy, we are not a
:33:17. > :33:25.totalitarian regime. If you are confronted with evidence of
:33:25. > :33:28.wrongdoing. I disagree that abuses that came out were nothing to do
:33:28. > :33:37.with Mr Manning. Both of our countries believe in the rule of
:33:37. > :33:42.law and procedures of laws, whoa made Mr Manning and Edward Snowden
:33:42. > :33:46.God, who allowed them to decide abuses occurred and then offer
:33:46. > :33:51.reams of information and nobody elected them or appointed them. In
:33:51. > :33:55.a democracy that is not how you proceed, that is the fundamental
:33:55. > :34:00.problem with the self-appointed prophets of openness. The debate
:34:00. > :34:05.now taking place in Congress, with 205 votes voting for the first time
:34:05. > :34:09.to rein in the NSA would not be taking place if Edward Snowden had
:34:10. > :34:14.done anything differently than what he did do. He had been tout of the
:34:14. > :34:18.country as he saw from -- he had to be out of the country as he saw
:34:18. > :34:21.from Bradley Manning and incommunicado as he is right now.
:34:21. > :34:24.We owe him a great debt for starting the possibility of
:34:24. > :34:30.remaining a democracy and not becoming the police state of which
:34:30. > :34:35.we now have the infrastructure. The architecture, the archives.
:34:35. > :34:40.Rivkin? Let me say the following, the essence of American
:34:40. > :34:43.constitutional order and for that an order of any democracy is that
:34:43. > :34:49.processes and procedures matter more than specific policy outcomes.
:34:49. > :34:54.Even if you take Mr Ellsberg at his word that we some how became a
:34:54. > :35:00.fascist totalitarian state. Don't misquote me Mr Rivkin. OK, even if
:35:00. > :35:04.it were true, even if it were true horrific abuses are occuring, which
:35:04. > :35:08.they are not, this is not the right way to proceed. Our constitution,
:35:08. > :35:13.Bill of Rights, separation of powers, is essentially about how we
:35:14. > :35:19.as a body and society deal with problems. Having people break that
:35:19. > :35:24.oath and take it upon themselves. With respect Sir you don't
:35:24. > :35:28.understand anything about American political systems, or political
:35:28. > :35:33.philosophy. It is again not about your outcomes it is about how you
:35:33. > :35:38.go about solving problems. Do you believe for example with injustice
:35:38. > :35:44.we should take arms and rise in rebellion to cure this injustice.
:35:44. > :35:47.You misquote me. Let's not do the War of Independence all over again.
:35:47. > :35:52.What impact do you think this will have and The Snowman case will have
:35:52. > :35:55.on whistleblowers in the future? I'm very encouraged by the fact
:35:55. > :36:01.there is at last the discussion taking place in the Congress for
:36:01. > :36:06.the first time on the fact that the reforms instituted by the church
:36:06. > :36:10.committee have failed. The Pfizer amendment court has failed as a use
:36:10. > :36:15.of the judicial terrain in the abuses of the NSA, the intelligence
:36:16. > :36:19.committees have failed. In fact the idea that President Obama has said
:36:19. > :36:23.the three branches of Government have participated in this when what
:36:23. > :36:28.you have is a secret briefing of a gang of eight in the Congress,
:36:28. > :36:32.secret decisions on secret law by a secret court, the amendment court,
:36:32. > :36:38.that constitutes oversight and separation of powers, is simply
:36:38. > :36:42.absurd to say that. The fact is our secrecy system is put. Gentlemen we
:36:42. > :36:46.have run out of time. Now the North-South divide is something
:36:46. > :36:50.that worries politicians in all the main political parties w Labour in
:36:50. > :36:53.recent years stronger in Scotland and the north of England and the
:36:53. > :36:58.Conservatives stronger in the other end of the country. Today that
:36:58. > :37:02.divide was made flesh in the shape of a living, breathing Conservative
:37:02. > :37:07.peer, Lord Howell of Guildford who talking about the north-east of
:37:07. > :37:11.England as good for fracking to produce energy, because of large
:37:11. > :37:14.desolate areas. The result was a small political earthquake. First a
:37:14. > :37:17.bit of background, the Government, at least the Conservative portion
:37:17. > :37:21.of the Government loves the idea of fracking, led by the Chancellor,
:37:21. > :37:25.George Osborne, who has looked with some envy across the Atlantic at
:37:25. > :37:29.cheaper energy prices that have come about on the back of fracking.
:37:29. > :37:33.As a result economic growth and energy-intensive industries being
:37:33. > :37:36.re-born in the United States N this country we are at a far earlier
:37:36. > :37:40.stage. It is still very controversial, we are at the
:37:40. > :37:44.evaluation stage, we are at testing and evaluations and seeing if this
:37:44. > :37:47.thing will work. We are also at the stage of protest. People worried
:37:47. > :37:50.about what might happen to their community. It is a very delicate
:37:50. > :37:56.stage. The Government wants to get something done, people are worried
:37:56. > :37:59.about it. Into this very delicate balance step forward Lord Howell,
:37:59. > :38:04.former Conservative Energy Secretary way back, he was in Mrs
:38:04. > :38:08.Thatcher's first cabinet. What did he have to say? Would the minister
:38:08. > :38:12.accept it could be a mistake to think of and discuss fracking in
:38:12. > :38:15.terms of the whole UK in one go, there are obviously are in
:38:15. > :38:18.beautiful rural areas, where it is not just the drilling and the
:38:18. > :38:22.fracking which I think are exaggerated but the trucks and the
:38:22. > :38:26.delivery and the roads and disturbance, those are justified
:38:26. > :38:31.worries. But there are large and uninhabited and desolate areas,
:38:31. > :38:41.certainly up in parts of the north- east where there is plenty of room
:38:41. > :38:44.
:38:44. > :38:47.for fracking.... ( talking and laughter) well away from anybody's
:38:47. > :38:51.residence without any threat to the rural environment. That brought the
:38:51. > :38:55.House down, he's not a Government minister, why does anybody care?
:38:55. > :39:00.Downing Street has been quick to point that out, he doesn't speak
:39:00. > :39:03.for anybody except himself. Why is it making the news? Two reasons I
:39:03. > :39:07.suspect, we are on the doorstep of the silly season, the Commons has
:39:07. > :39:12.packed up and headed off for the summer break. The Lords is still
:39:12. > :39:16.sitting just, but there is a lack of political news around and there
:39:16. > :39:19.was another reason did I mention that Lord Howell is George
:39:19. > :39:22.Osborne's father-in-law. No man or woman can be held responsible for
:39:23. > :39:27.what their father-in-law had to saying, I suspect the Chancellor
:39:27. > :39:32.would have father his wife's dad picked his words a little more
:39:32. > :39:35.carefully. What has been the reaction? Labour MPs have said this
:39:35. > :39:38.shows that Conservatives are out- of-touch, that they are hostile in
:39:38. > :39:41.fact to other parts of the country apart from the south-east of
:39:41. > :39:44.England. On Twitter we have heard about the nasty Side of Twitter
:39:44. > :39:47.this evening, there has been some fun to be had. Particularly from
:39:47. > :39:53.people posting rather lovely pictures of the north-east of
:39:53. > :39:59.England, of which we can see a selection here. Under the hashtag
:39:59. > :40:04.desolate. Lord Howell has issued a statement apologising, he said he
:40:04. > :40:08.never intended to say the north- east of desolate, he said there are
:40:08. > :40:14.parts of the country less densely inhabited than others. The north-
:40:14. > :40:17.east is less densely inhabited, there are two out of 29 MPs
:40:17. > :40:22.Conservative, I don't suspect what happened today will improve that
:40:22. > :40:25.proportion any time soon. Brazil was once the ultimate
:40:25. > :40:29.fantasy destination, the beaches, the carnival, the music, the
:40:29. > :40:34.football, more recently the Brazilian dream has included rapid
:40:34. > :40:38.economic growth, putting the bee in the called BRIC countries, was that
:40:38. > :40:43.another fantasy? This summer has seen riots across Brazil, the
:40:43. > :40:48.Pope's visit this month highlighted great equalities. One man who ought
:40:48. > :40:54.to know the Brazilian realitys is former Culture Minister and
:40:54. > :41:01.musician, Gilberto Gil, we caught up with him here on the summer
:41:01. > :41:11.festival circuit. This is what cabinet ministers do after they
:41:11. > :41:21.leave office. Well Brazilian cabinet ministers, to be fair.
:41:21. > :41:28.
:41:28. > :41:35.Gilberto Gil, former Culture Secretary, to be specific, Hello,
:41:35. > :41:40.I'm Stephen, very nice to meet you. Newsnight met him in a corner of
:41:40. > :41:44.the WOMAD music festival. We have cleared a space in the woods for U
:41:44. > :41:51.We began by talking about the recent riots in his homeland, he
:41:51. > :42:01.believes they were coming for a long time. I see as a natural
:42:01. > :42:04.
:42:04. > :42:09.consequence of you know everything that's been going on. Globally.
:42:09. > :42:15.People having access to information and to possibilities to act
:42:15. > :42:22.politically and everything, and of course I mean in the new element,
:42:22. > :42:27.they are the new technologies. The World Cup and the Olympics and
:42:27. > :42:34.the expenditure for putting those games together, they are just
:42:34. > :42:38.triggering elements for something that has been accumulating for
:42:38. > :42:45.longer and longer and longer. was no surprise to you? For me, no.
:42:45. > :42:55.No surprise. I think the world was surprised. The world...It Shouldn't
:42:55. > :42:56.
:42:56. > :43:00.Gil has mixed the musical traditions of his huge country with
:43:00. > :43:05.western styles, as a new documentary shows. He has been a
:43:05. > :43:12.social reformer and political activist. Thrown in jail for his
:43:12. > :43:17.pains in the late 60s under a military dictatorship. A decade ago
:43:17. > :43:21.he was in power himself. In the centre left Government of President
:43:21. > :43:27.Lula. A bit of a lifestyle change for a
:43:27. > :43:37.strolling Troubadour. Being there and having to deal with
:43:37. > :43:42.the whole you know state affair thing it's hard. It is difficult.
:43:42. > :43:48.Once upon a time it might have been Gil hosting the Pope on his first
:43:48. > :43:58.overseas visit to Brazil. He's going to the favelas, to the slums,
:43:58. > :43:58.
:43:58. > :44:02.and telling people keep on trying, you know. Carry on. Struggle. Don't
:44:02. > :44:11.submit yourselves. So in a sense he's playing the game. He is from
:44:11. > :44:17.Argentina, he's from a background of enduring and supporting workers
:44:17. > :44:24.and supporting poor communities and everything. So he knows you know.
:44:24. > :44:28.He's in, he's in his place. The World Cup is happening in
:44:28. > :44:32.Brazil next year, how do you think it is going to go, will it pass off
:44:32. > :44:38.peacefully? We just had the Confederation Cup a month, less
:44:39. > :44:45.than a month ago. We had, we're able to open the new stadiums, you
:44:45. > :44:53.know. With riots going on down the streets? With riots going on down
:44:53. > :44:56.the streets, and I mean both things at the same time. I think that will
:44:56. > :45:03.prevail for the World Cup and for the Olympics too. You think they
:45:03. > :45:07.will pass off peacefully? I think so. I think so.
:45:07. > :45:11.# So don't worry # About a thing
:45:11. > :45:14.# Because everything will be all right
:45:14. > :45:19.Gilberto Gil's tribute to Bob Marley, both to be considered stars
:45:19. > :45:29.of world music. Is that a good category to be in? Or a bit of a
:45:29. > :45:29.
:45:29. > :45:36.pigeonhole? ,r It's a little unfair in that sense, but at the same time
:45:36. > :45:42.it gives the world, you know, a goal, a chance to say we have a
:45:42. > :45:52.global music, we have a universal language. So from that side it is a
:45:52. > :45:54.
:45:54. > :46:00.little positive. Whatever you call it, Gil, at 71,
:46:00. > :46:09.continues to bring his music from Bahia in Brazil to the sun-kissed
:46:09. > :46:15.Savannahs of the UK and beyond. I have been able to survive, I have
:46:15. > :46:20.been able to you, you know, to do my thing, to do my travellings, to
:46:20. > :46:30.do my, I have also as well great support from the industry and great
:46:30. > :46:32.
:46:32. > :46:35.support from the society, from the public. And you will keep going?
:46:35. > :46:38.Until I die I hope! Nice to meet you.