:00:14. > :00:18.Can a 13-year-old victim of sexual abuse, who looked older than her
:00:18. > :00:22.age be predatory and able to egg on her abuser, according to a
:00:22. > :00:26.barrister and judge involved in that case, yes. Tonight the
:00:26. > :00:30.testimony of another girl accused of lying as she gave evidence about
:00:30. > :00:34.her alleged abuser. I understand that they have to test
:00:35. > :00:38.it and that they have to prove that they are telling the truth, but I
:00:38. > :00:43.think outrightly calling someone a liar isn't proving anything.
:00:44. > :00:46.So will plans for an elite panel of judges to preside over such
:00:46. > :00:52.hearings protect young and vulnerable witnesses. Labour and
:00:52. > :00:55.the Bar Council are here. Also tonight, after the rock star
:00:56. > :01:00.build up, the new Bank of England governor gets down to work
:01:00. > :01:04.promising potentially another three years of low interest rates.
:01:04. > :01:09.It's bad news if you are a saver, good news if you are a home buyer,
:01:09. > :01:14.very good news if you are a Chancellor. Our Olympic cyclists
:01:14. > :01:19.are the envy of the world, but for the casual cyclist our roads are
:01:20. > :01:23.anything but. In Holland things look very different, why?
:01:23. > :01:27.Everybody's on big sit up and beg bikes, they are weaving around,
:01:27. > :01:35.there is a much more relaxed feel to the way the cyclists occupy the
:01:35. > :01:39.streets. We need to get that culture doing. And... # The party's
:01:39. > :01:43.over The Prime Minister won't tell us
:01:43. > :01:53.how many members his party has. It is as if he knows the figures
:01:53. > :01:55.
:01:55. > :02:00.aren't pretty. Is the party over for the political parties? Le
:02:00. > :02:06.Good evening. Retch Dale, Rotherham, Oxford, where gangs of paedophiles
:02:06. > :02:09.targeted young girls. Abusers were jailed, but not before the victims
:02:09. > :02:13.were subjected to aggressive cross- examination by multiple barristers.
:02:13. > :02:17.The Lord Chief Justice says he now wants to protect vulnerable
:02:17. > :02:21.witnesses in the future. Meanwhile the Crown Prosecution Service today
:02:21. > :02:27.criticised one of its own barristers for decribing a 13-year-
:02:27. > :02:30.old victim of a sex attack as "predatory" and "sexually
:02:30. > :02:34.experienced". The judge hearing the case echoed those comments. All
:02:34. > :02:39.this means the system will change. Will it alter some people's mind
:02:39. > :02:43.set. I have been talking to a 12- year-old girl who while giving
:02:43. > :02:47.evidence about her alleged abuser was accused of lying. The judge
:02:47. > :02:51.halted the trial when she became stressed and the case collapsed. We
:02:51. > :02:56.are calling her Kate, it's not her real name. She wanted to talk to us
:02:56. > :03:01.and her mother agreed. I started by asking her how she felt about the
:03:01. > :03:05.prospect of giving evidence, her words are spoken for her. It was
:03:05. > :03:12.really nerve racking and scary, but it wasn't, I didn't think it would
:03:12. > :03:15.be too bad. Why were you nervous? Because I didn't know what to
:03:15. > :03:20.expect. Had someone talked you through what might happen during
:03:20. > :03:26.the course of the trial? I had been told what was going to happen. And
:03:26. > :03:31.what was supposed to happen in quite a lot of detail. But I didn't
:03:31. > :03:36.know, I didn't know what to expect still. Because I didn't know if
:03:36. > :03:42.they were telling the truth. I didn't know if it was all the same
:03:42. > :03:46.as what they had said. And whereof it that you gave evidence from?
:03:46. > :03:52.where was it that you gave evidence from? I did a video in a house, I
:03:52. > :03:56.don't know where it was, I can't remember. Then I did it from a
:03:56. > :04:00.separate room in the court, but I was videolinked to the court.
:04:00. > :04:04.there anyone in the room with you? Yeah, there was two ladies in the
:04:04. > :04:08.room with me. That were with me whilst I was giving the evidence.
:04:08. > :04:12.And had you been able to get to know them? I had met one of them
:04:12. > :04:16.before when we went to the Crown Court room, other one I hadn't met
:04:16. > :04:20.before. Why was it that you weren't able to have your mum with you, for
:04:20. > :04:25.example, in that room? Because she was a witness. How did you feel
:04:25. > :04:30.about the two ladies with you? were really kind and supportive.
:04:30. > :04:36.When I get upset they kind of let me go out the room and they took a
:04:36. > :04:40.break. They were very kind and chatty. What do you remember about
:04:40. > :04:47.what the defence barrister said to you? She asked personal questions
:04:47. > :04:52.like "why -- why did I have to have a bath every day and the house have
:04:52. > :04:55.to be cleaned every day and personal questions about the way I
:04:55. > :04:59.lived. Did you understand why she was asking those kinds of
:04:59. > :05:04.questions? No, because it wasn't really related at all to any of
:05:04. > :05:10.them. Did you feel you could say that to her? Not really, no.What
:05:10. > :05:19.else did she say to you? She called me a liar a lot of the time. She
:05:19. > :05:22.said I was lying and trying to stick up for my mum. Because, I
:05:22. > :05:28.can't remember why she said it, she said I was clearly only trying to
:05:28. > :05:32.stick up for my mum. How many times did she call you a liar? I don't
:05:32. > :05:36.know, several, a few. What did you think of that? It really upset me
:05:36. > :05:42.because I wasn't lying. To be called a liar when you're not is
:05:42. > :05:46.really upsetting. What happened after she had said that? I got
:05:46. > :05:52.upset and went out of the room. And then the judge came and told me
:05:52. > :05:57.that I didn't have to carry on. And then they came down. I went
:05:57. > :06:04.downstairs to see my mum and then about 15 minutes later they told me
:06:04. > :06:12.what had happened. And why I wasn't giving any more evidence. And how
:06:12. > :06:16.did that affect the case? Obviously it didn't carry on, so the case.
:06:16. > :06:22.The judge halted the case did he? Yeah. Why?Because the way that I
:06:22. > :06:27.was being treated by the defence barrister. So because you became so
:06:27. > :06:30.upset he decided the case should stop? Yeah.Even though it meant
:06:30. > :06:34.other witnesses couldn't then give their evidence because you were the
:06:34. > :06:39.first witness weren't you? Yeah. The other witnesses got upset
:06:39. > :06:42.because they couldn't give their evidence in court. They wanted to,
:06:42. > :06:46.did they? Yeah, they had been told that once they had said what they
:06:46. > :06:50.had to say it would be over and they could carry on with their
:06:50. > :06:56.lives. And so they got upset because they couldn't tell their
:06:56. > :07:02.story and tell their, give their evidence. Do you understand Kate
:07:02. > :07:06.that sometimes barristers have to challenge and test somebody's
:07:06. > :07:10.evidence because some people do tell lies? I understand that they
:07:10. > :07:15.have to test it, and that they have to prove that they are telling the
:07:15. > :07:21.truth but I think outrightly calling someone a liar isn't
:07:21. > :07:29.proving anything. In future there are going to be special judges who
:07:29. > :07:32.hear the kind of cases that you were involved in who may be able to
:07:32. > :07:36.protect vulnerable witnesses like you were. What do you think of that
:07:36. > :07:40.idea? I think it is a better idea because they would know how to
:07:40. > :07:46.treat the children and they would know how the children are feeling
:07:46. > :07:51.better than the other judges that are used. And do you think it might
:07:51. > :07:55.help people like you describe what happened to you? I think it would
:07:55. > :07:58.help because they would know the sort of questions to ask instead of
:07:58. > :08:02.having to call somebody a liar to get the evidence. They would be
:08:02. > :08:08.able to ask the sort of questions that work to get the answers they
:08:09. > :08:12.need. I wonder how you think it might have helped you in your case
:08:12. > :08:19.had there been one of these particular judges with this extra
:08:19. > :08:22.training presiding over your case? Well it would have helped because
:08:22. > :08:25.the questions wouldn't necessarily have been easier to answer, but
:08:25. > :08:33.they wouldn't have been so upsetting in the way that they were.
:08:33. > :08:39.So it is a good idea as far as you can see? Yeah.Can I ask you about
:08:39. > :08:46.some comments the judges said about a 13-year-old sexual abuse victim,
:08:46. > :08:52.he described her as "predatory" and "egging on her abuser". How do you
:08:52. > :08:57.think a judge saying that to a 13- year-old girl might make her feel?
:08:57. > :09:03.Well it is going to make her feel really insecure and well she
:09:03. > :09:07.wouldn't want to do anything at all. Because if someone said that you
:09:07. > :09:11.dressed inappropriately you wouldn't ever want to wear a dress
:09:11. > :09:17.again. Because you would feel really insecure about the way you
:09:17. > :09:22.looked. It would really affect you. I think. What would you say to that
:09:22. > :09:31.judge? Tell him to get his act straight, sort himself out because
:09:31. > :09:35.it is not fair on anybody. How do you think other young victims of
:09:35. > :09:43.sexual abuse might react on hearing that he had said those things?
:09:43. > :09:48.would be pretty shocked. I know I would. Because it's really damaging
:09:48. > :09:55.for someone to hear those sorts of things from someone so important.
:09:55. > :10:01.You gave evidence a number of years ago now, how are you now? I'm fine
:10:01. > :10:08.now, I have got through it really well. But there is obviously still
:10:08. > :10:11.things that still come up now. Even after two, three years. But I'm
:10:12. > :10:19.fine, I feel fine. Kate, thank you very much for
:10:19. > :10:23.talking to me. Thank you for having With me now Maura McGowan QC chair
:10:23. > :10:26.of the Bar Council in England and Wales that represents barristers
:10:26. > :10:29.and Sadiq Khan, the Shadow Justice Secretary who was a human rights
:10:29. > :10:35.solicitor before entering parliament. Welcome both of you.
:10:35. > :10:39.First of all, how do you react to the way Kate was treated? She's a
:10:39. > :10:42.very impressive young woman. She summed up two of the most important
:10:42. > :10:44.issues actually she understands that evidence in the sort of case
:10:44. > :10:49.she was involved in has to be tested, but Sheehy quillly
:10:49. > :10:52.understands that calling somebody a liar over and over again is no way
:10:52. > :11:00.of cross-examining anybody. You don't establish anything by doing
:11:00. > :11:03.that. Is there a way of challenging the evidence without using the word
:11:03. > :11:07."liar" or decribing someone as that? Yes, depending on the age and
:11:07. > :11:11.understanding of the young women or young person. There is different
:11:11. > :11:15.ways of doing it, but shouting at somebody or repeatedly call them a
:11:15. > :11:18.Loire isn't a way of achieving anything. Why does it happen then?
:11:18. > :11:23.I suspect quite often because people haven't got as much training
:11:23. > :11:27.or experience as they should have when they do these very delicate
:11:27. > :11:32.and sensitive cases. It is worth noting that I think about 30% of
:11:32. > :11:36.all trials in England at the moment are allegations of sexual impro-
:11:36. > :11:46.priority. Not all with children, mostly with adults, that is the
:11:46. > :11:51.
:11:51. > :11:56.volume of cases going through. Kate's reaction to the prosecuting
:11:56. > :11:59.barrister decribing another victim as "predatory" and "sexually
:11:59. > :12:04.experienced" might that stop other young victims speaking out?
:12:04. > :12:09.Absolutely, if you speak to victims' group as I do, there is
:12:09. > :12:12.already huge concern about the way victims and witnesses are treated.
:12:12. > :12:17.This case this week and Kate's case is not the only two I have heard
:12:17. > :12:21.about. It is the culture that needs changing, lawyers today, judges
:12:21. > :12:29.today and the CPS are better trained than ever before. The
:12:30. > :12:32.practice is very different, glad ditoral and aggressive. Victims if
:12:32. > :12:36.they lose confidence in the criminal justice system they will
:12:36. > :12:42.stop coming forward and taking part in trials. And witnesses will think
:12:42. > :12:45.what is the point, and that is bad news for us, offenders will
:12:45. > :12:50.continue to repeat owe fences because they are not being brought
:12:50. > :12:52.to book. Can we talk about culture, Maura McGowan, is there a
:12:52. > :12:57.generational prejudice towards victims of child abuse? I don't
:12:57. > :13:00.think there is. How do you explain the comment of the judge and
:13:00. > :13:05.prosecuting barrister? Given the reaction we have seen today and
:13:05. > :13:09.yesterday which is massive, this is the first or second item on every
:13:09. > :13:14.news programme all day, that is an indication that this is not common
:13:14. > :13:17.place, this does not happen every trial. How many other ignorant of
:13:17. > :13:22.the legal profession are there who think a victim bears some
:13:22. > :13:26.responsibility for the abuse? was said should not have been said.
:13:26. > :13:31.Just those two? No, no. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at
:13:31. > :13:36.all, there are cases that need to be done better, I accept that. But
:13:36. > :13:40.equally it is clear isn't it that the vast majority of cases are done
:13:40. > :13:48.properly. Can I just say, I'm sure that's right, but you just have to
:13:48. > :13:50.remember what Milly Douler's father said when he was cross-examined by
:13:50. > :13:57.Levi Bellfield's barrister at the trial, he felt it was almost as bad
:13:57. > :14:01.as the day and weeks after his daughter had died. You remember
:14:01. > :14:05.Francis Andredie the professional violinists, who according to her
:14:05. > :14:10.husband killed herself because of the way she was treated. Judges
:14:10. > :14:14.have to step in and protect witnesses. Defence barristers must
:14:14. > :14:17.fearlessly defend their clients, but there is a way of doing so
:14:17. > :14:21.without intimidating and putting off future victims. Of course
:14:21. > :14:25.judges can step in, but they don't, despite the training, the
:14:25. > :14:29.comprehensive training they receive for these particular cases? Many
:14:29. > :14:32.are ex-barristers except for a few exceptions. There is this macho
:14:32. > :14:36.culture whereby you some how impress the gallery by being tough.
:14:36. > :14:42.We have to look at the way we train and recruit judges, it last to
:14:42. > :14:48.change. It has to be a mainstream issue not just where 13-year-old
:14:48. > :14:52.children are involved. You smiled when he said "macho culture?
:14:52. > :14:56.don't accept that, the vast majority of barristers who do these
:14:56. > :15:00.cases are women. People tend to instruct women to do these case,
:15:00. > :15:05.there isn't a macho culture, judges are sensitive and conscious of what
:15:05. > :15:10.the public gallery thinks of them? This extra training these elite
:15:10. > :15:13.judges will get, suggests there is something missing from the
:15:13. > :15:17."comprehensive training" that they already get? The panel of elite
:15:17. > :15:21.judges being set up now will be trained specially to deal with the
:15:21. > :15:26.complex sexual abuse cases so, the grooming cases, where you have
:15:26. > :15:30.seven, eight defendants, you have any number of witnesses and victims,
:15:30. > :15:33.these cases require special management skills and that's the
:15:33. > :15:38.panel that is going to be set up to deal with those sorts of complex
:15:38. > :15:42.cases. The judges are already trained to deal with sexual
:15:42. > :15:45.offences, it is not perfect, I don't pretend it is, but it is
:15:45. > :15:49.infinitely better than it used to be and it is getting better all the
:15:49. > :15:54.time. I accept the last point except I say the panel of judges
:15:54. > :16:01.won't have dealt with this week's case or the vineist cases or the
:16:01. > :16:04.murder of Milly Douler, unless you change the culture in all the
:16:04. > :16:07.courts why should witnesses bother to report a crime or as a witness
:16:08. > :16:12.come forward and give evidence if this is how they will be treated.
:16:12. > :16:21.The new judges, the elite judges, the panel, are they going to be
:16:21. > :16:25.able to step in and stop the cross- examination a number of times
:16:25. > :16:28.because there are a number of defendants represented by multiple
:16:28. > :16:31.barristers? The plan is, and the Government is looking at
:16:31. > :16:35.introducing a section on the books for a long time, where cross-
:16:35. > :16:39.examination is done in advance of the trial, it is not done in a
:16:39. > :16:44.courtroom. The witnesses or victims don't see the defendants. That's
:16:44. > :16:48.being done as a pilot in three areas at the moment. But the panel
:16:48. > :16:52.of judges that have been chosen and set up are going to have very
:16:52. > :16:55.different powers. They will always have ground rules hearings in these
:16:55. > :16:59.cases, they will say at the start right there are six of you, there
:16:59. > :17:04.aren't going to be six cross- examinations, or if there are they
:17:04. > :17:08.will only be of a certain length, you will deal with one topic you
:17:08. > :17:11.with another. They won't step in during the trial, I hope, because
:17:12. > :17:16.the rules will have been laid down in advance. Thank you very much
:17:16. > :17:20.both of you. After months of hype, more
:17:20. > :17:23.befitting the release of a Hollywood blockbuster, the new
:17:23. > :17:29.Governor of the Bank of England, Patrick Karnezis, made his first
:17:29. > :17:38.public pronouncements today in the more prosaic -- Patrick Karnezis
:17:38. > :17:43.made his first public pronouncements to the prosaic
:17:43. > :17:47.gallery. What has he to say? inflation goes too high the Bank of
:17:48. > :17:57.England has to put up trrds to bring it back to target -- interest
:17:58. > :18:06.rates to bring it back to target. They have said they will not put
:18:06. > :18:10.interest rates up from Boca bottom until inflation falls below 7%,
:18:10. > :18:14.because they don't think unemployment will do that for three
:18:14. > :18:21.years, those who borrow can be fairly sure that interest rates,
:18:21. > :18:25.base rates are going to stay as they are for at least two years.
:18:25. > :18:32.The aim is we go out and borrow and the housing market ticks up a bit.
:18:32. > :18:36.How cast iron is that guarantee from Mr Carney? It is not, he has
:18:36. > :18:41.three caveats, one is if inflation looks in the medium term like it
:18:41. > :18:45.will be 2.5%, another one if there are rising expectations of
:18:45. > :18:50.inflation, so wages outstripping inflation, you get this leapfrog
:18:50. > :18:54.effect. Also if another part of the Bank of England sees a bubble
:18:54. > :19:01.occuring as a result of this housing boom that we all expect to
:19:01. > :19:04.take place. Now first thing has to be said about that is this 2.5%
:19:04. > :19:08.thing, it sounds well it could have been easily 2.5% inflation. The
:19:08. > :19:13.Bank of England have some great economists who all seem to draw
:19:13. > :19:17.graphs that end up nicely normal in the medium term. So look in the end,
:19:17. > :19:20.what he is basically doing is saying unless unemployment falls I
:19:20. > :19:24.will keep interest rates static, there are these caveats, he's
:19:24. > :19:29.saying to the markets and the markets in this case are us, home
:19:29. > :19:33.buyers or savers, you decide which bit you think I'm going to do and
:19:33. > :19:38.the end result of that will be that I think most people psychologically
:19:38. > :19:42.will hear the big promise, interest rates are static and not hear the
:19:42. > :19:47.caveats and the result will be greater confidence. But not for
:19:47. > :19:50.savers? For savers it is transparently not very good. I mean
:19:50. > :19:54.the mathematics are if you are putting your money into the bank,
:19:54. > :20:00.so saving it as cash, then inflation is eating it away, pause
:20:00. > :20:07.the interest rates, as any savers know are almost zero and inflation
:20:07. > :20:10.is above that. So he was trying to sell it to people on the long-term
:20:10. > :20:14.that savers want the economy to be all right. This is what he said.
:20:14. > :20:18.The best thing for savers is a strong economy, ultimately a strong
:20:18. > :20:23.economy will bring higher interest rates. You see that to some extent
:20:23. > :20:31.at longer interest rates moving up as the data proved entirely
:20:31. > :20:34.appropriate. The second thing is to recognise that, and when I talk to
:20:34. > :20:37.saver, savers care about their children and grandchildren, they
:20:37. > :20:39.care their employed, they care about neighbours and friends, this
:20:39. > :20:44.is ultimately about getting the whole of the economy moving forward
:20:44. > :20:46.in a way that rewards work, savings and that ensures the last thing
:20:47. > :20:52.that is obviously incredibly important for savers is that
:20:52. > :20:56.inflation comes back to that 2% target so they make real returns on
:20:56. > :20:59.their savings. What could be wrong with that, if you are a saver, of
:20:59. > :21:01.course, the short-term thing, the jam tomorrow is fine, but the
:21:01. > :21:06.short-term thing is you are losing money. One of the side-effects of
:21:06. > :21:10.what he has done today is to say explicitly to savers, if you want
:21:10. > :21:14.to live on your savings or get an income on it you have to move your
:21:14. > :21:21.money somewhere else, as the experts are clear about today.
:21:21. > :21:25.billion went into cash ISAs alone despite low interest rates,
:21:25. > :21:28.essentially that means while we all need cash for a rainy day, people
:21:28. > :21:32.holding cash in case they lose their job, but holding cash for
:21:32. > :21:38.long periods of time you are actually losing money in real terms.
:21:38. > :21:43.Ultimately what has to happen is people need to start flushing some
:21:43. > :21:48.money out of cash and put into riskier assets to keep them ahead
:21:48. > :21:54.of inflation. The big picture, what is Mark Carney trying to do?
:21:54. > :21:58.Bank of England governors Mervyn King before him, they are balancing
:21:58. > :22:01.a huge unprecedented austerity programme that takes money out of
:22:01. > :22:06.the economy with pumping money into the economy through quanative
:22:06. > :22:16.easing, through low interest rates and now through this called forward
:22:16. > :22:18.
:22:18. > :22:24.guidance. They are also something else, He is doing something else,
:22:24. > :22:31.he is saying savers you will lose your money relative to inflation,
:22:31. > :22:34.in all those who borrowed can be relieved. Mr Mark Carney is doing
:22:34. > :22:38.his best to make that happen in the UK as it has happened all around
:22:38. > :22:41.the world. A year ago British cyclists were
:22:41. > :22:46.sweeping the board at the Olympic Velodrome and it definitely
:22:46. > :22:49.inspired more people to swap four wheels for two, yet British roads
:22:49. > :22:53.remain some of the most dangerous in Europe for cyclists. Just across
:22:53. > :22:56.the North Sea lies a cycling utopia, the Netherlands, our countries
:22:56. > :23:04.aren't that different, so what are the Dutch doing right and what are
:23:04. > :23:09.we doing wrong? We sent the BBC's Hague correspondent out on her
:23:09. > :23:19.Omafiets, the Netherland's popular grandma bike to seek an answer on a
:23:19. > :23:21.
:23:21. > :23:31.200-mile journey from the Hague to London. It is history, it is a
:23:31. > :23:32.
:23:32. > :23:35.legacy, it is knowledge. It is fast, cheap and healthy.
:23:35. > :23:39.really have a totally different culture, we have a long way to go
:23:39. > :23:49.before we have the same mentality about cycling. That is what I want
:23:49. > :23:50.
:23:50. > :23:53.to achieve. A lot of cyclists are totally irresponsible. Her life was
:23:53. > :24:00.just starting as far as I was concerned, so many things were
:24:00. > :24:04.opening up and then she was dead. There's no doubt the Dutch have
:24:04. > :24:08.created some of the most coveted bike-safe streets in the world.
:24:08. > :24:13.More than half of all trips in cities like the Hague are made by
:24:13. > :24:19.bike, but the question is, would all of this work for somewhere like
:24:19. > :24:29.the UK? We are on a mission from the Dutch parliament to Westminster
:24:29. > :24:32.
:24:32. > :24:38.to find out if Britain could and should be doing Dutch? Dutch
:24:38. > :24:42.society is geared around the bike, but the Netherlands hasn't always
:24:42. > :24:48.looked this way. Amsterdam is a paradise for cyclists mainly
:24:48. > :24:58.because there are no hills to climb. In the 1950s and 1960s cyclists
:24:58. > :24:59.
:24:59. > :25:08.were squeezed to the kerb as car ownership rocket. The rise in oil
:25:08. > :25:12.prices in the 1970s shook the trust in cars. Then there was a campaign
:25:12. > :25:17.for safety after more than 400 children were killed on the roads.
:25:17. > :25:22.In this university city electronic counters outside the parking spaces
:25:22. > :25:26.at the train station register how many spaces are available. There is
:25:26. > :25:31.room for 10,000 bikes. Cyclists are accommodated here in exactly the
:25:32. > :25:36.same way as motorists are elsewhere. This is the city square, it used to
:25:36. > :25:42.be like any other town, full of parked cars. Today Dutch
:25:42. > :25:47.campaigners like Marc are actively trying to encourage the Brits to
:25:47. > :25:50.adopt the Dutch system. What is the translation of it, how can we sell
:25:50. > :25:54.it and design what the Dutch have in a way that can be incorporated
:25:54. > :25:59.in the British situation? There is a lot going on there. It is all in
:25:59. > :26:02.the transition. I hear many excuses or myths about what makes the Dutch
:26:02. > :26:07.supposedly so different or the Netherlands. There are more
:26:07. > :26:10.similarities than differences. It is not about the climate, it is the
:26:10. > :26:13.same. Flat it would be Amsterdams all over the world for that
:26:13. > :26:21.argument. It is not that, it is about making a choice and
:26:21. > :26:26.prioritising what you want. In the Netherlands cyclists are
:26:26. > :26:29.treated with extra care, dedicated traffic signals, crossings and
:26:29. > :26:34.parking spaces make for extremely smooth ride. One of the many
:26:34. > :26:39.reasons it is so popular is that the infrastructure is integrated
:26:39. > :26:43.and intuitive. You won't see much special gear or preparation here.
:26:43. > :26:52.The smaller you are the more protected you are. And that is
:26:52. > :26:57.written into the rules of the road. Now time for our great Newsnight
:26:57. > :27:07.cycle to commence. A chance to experience a bit of bike life on
:27:07. > :27:13.
:27:13. > :27:23.the other side. The roads and cycle paths are wide enough for people to
:27:23. > :27:26.cycle along comfortably side-by- side. Newsnight's producer and
:27:26. > :27:36.acting Sherpa Hannah can catch up and help guide us along towards the
:27:36. > :27:42.
:27:42. > :27:46.ferry. Tell me about the routes?
:27:46. > :27:54.Sunrise on deck and time to check twit for some last-minute advice on
:27:54. > :27:59.how to cycle UK-style. No sign of any cycle paths to guide us, and
:27:59. > :28:02.when they do appear an early indication there may be some
:28:02. > :28:07.obstacles ahead. Through the countryside though it
:28:07. > :28:17.is not so bad. But this is TV and we do have some interviews to get
:28:17. > :28:26.to. So cheating slightly! The Dutch bike is taking a bit of adapting to
:28:26. > :28:33.British trains and there is no special place for them on board.
:28:33. > :28:41.And then we hit London the cycle superhighways, London's big idea
:28:41. > :28:45.for giving cyclists their own space. London's self-styled psyche ing
:28:45. > :28:48.superhero d cycling superhero sees Dutch culture as part of the
:28:48. > :28:54.solution for reducing congestion. They have a totally different
:28:54. > :28:59.culture of cycling, we have to get that. When you cycle in Amsterdam
:28:59. > :29:04.or Copenhagen or Berlin you are not in a great fleet of people with
:29:04. > :29:08.their heads down wearing lycra who feel they have to get from A to B
:29:08. > :29:13.as fast as possible. Everyone is on big bike, they are weaving around,
:29:13. > :29:18.there is a much more relaxed feel to the way the psychists occupy the
:29:18. > :29:22.streets. We need to get that culture going. That is why we are
:29:22. > :29:27.doing the mini-Hollands. I believe in segregation where it is possible
:29:27. > :29:36.to do, but we don't have, in the centre of London, particularly, we
:29:36. > :29:43.don't have enough road space to concecrate entirely to cyclists.
:29:43. > :29:47.Taking a slight detour off the main route towards Westminster, we enter
:29:47. > :29:54.an emerging cycling culture, that seems to resemble the Dutch style.
:29:54. > :29:57.It is not just the lycra lads here. Across the UK there are signs the
:29:58. > :30:07.Dutch dream is starting to be recognised. On Hackney high street
:30:08. > :30:12.
:30:12. > :30:15.they have turned it into a bikes- only zone. It is happening in
:30:15. > :30:20.London, changes are happening, people are embracing cycling so
:30:20. > :30:24.much more as a cultural part of London too, which is a fantastic
:30:24. > :30:29.thing to see it being embraced. It isn't just cycling in the
:30:29. > :30:33.netherlands, cycling in London bad, we are nowhere near perfect, but we
:30:33. > :30:37.are nowhere near absolutely hidious as well. We are in a strange
:30:37. > :30:42.inbetween place in London in cycling at the moment.
:30:42. > :30:48.Even if cycling culture is starting to change, many drivers still see
:30:48. > :30:54.cyclists as some kind of aggressive tribe. There is not much that gets
:30:54. > :31:00.under my skin, but sometimes when you see them going through
:31:00. > :31:04.crossings when there is women pushing prams, it is crazy. Others
:31:04. > :31:10.say it is not in the country's interest to give more space or
:31:10. > :31:15.financial support to cyclists. think Boris's plans for spending
:31:15. > :31:19.more on cycling is bonkers. Cycling is one of the most dangerous
:31:19. > :31:23.occupations you can undertake, you should realise that and that's why
:31:23. > :31:29.if you have any sense you get off your bike and actually use public
:31:29. > :31:34.transport or buy a car. They are becoming a very pushy minority
:31:34. > :31:38.group. You don't get that from motorists who are much better
:31:38. > :31:42.behaved generally. Everyone agrees it's going to take more than blue
:31:42. > :31:48.paint. Redesigning the roads is not just about creating beautiful
:31:48. > :31:52.segregated spaces in places like London's Hyde park. We're going to
:31:52. > :31:56.reclaim the city for the bike. We are spending a billion over the
:31:56. > :31:59.next den years to make London cycling much more cyclist-friendly,
:32:00. > :32:03.much more like Amsterdam. We are not going to be Amsterdam any time
:32:03. > :32:07.soon, it took them 40 years to become Amsterdam, but we are going
:32:07. > :32:12.to be a lot further towards it than we were.
:32:12. > :32:19.1232 cyclists were killed in the UK last -- 123 psychists were killed
:32:19. > :32:23.in the UK last year, more don cyclists were killed in the UK last
:32:23. > :32:32.year, more than soldiers killed. This is the eight year in the row
:32:32. > :32:36.the figures have increased. Even those who have had the worst
:32:36. > :32:40.imaginable experiences are still actively promoting a greater
:32:40. > :32:44.British cycling culture. She was cycling to work going straight
:32:44. > :32:48.ahead, a lorry who was turning left turned left across her path and she
:32:48. > :32:52.was killed instantly. Do you encourage more people to take to
:32:52. > :32:55.their bikes even after your own experience? Yes, definitely. That
:32:55. > :33:01.is the only way to go. There are so many arguments in favour of cycling.
:33:01. > :33:06.We are going to need to think radically about how we deal with
:33:07. > :33:11.the reality that there are going to be many, many cyclists and many
:33:11. > :33:17.more pedestrians. The next person we meet on route to Westminster is
:33:17. > :33:21.Ron ka, this CCTV footage shows the moment just before she was hit by
:33:21. > :33:26.that lorry. This is the marble arch, I was here, they closed behind me
:33:26. > :33:30.and clipped my wheel from the back and dragged me all the way across
:33:30. > :33:34.down the Edgeware Road path. It is easy to think it is not going to
:33:34. > :33:38.happen to you, you hear these things on the news all the time. As
:33:38. > :33:47.with my case I thought it wouldn't happen to me but it does. Be
:33:47. > :33:57.careful. Back on our bikes and time for the
:33:57. > :34:03.
:34:03. > :34:08.final approach. We made it, trustee Dutch bike and I and the crew
:34:08. > :34:13.survived the journey. Back over in the netherlands they are spending
:34:13. > :34:18.�30 per person on cycling, here in the UK that figure is �2.22, you
:34:18. > :34:21.can feel the difference. On the 2nd of September the all-party
:34:21. > :34:27.parliamentary cycling group will be inside here telling David Cameron
:34:27. > :34:31.to increase that figure to at least �10 per person. This is being seen
:34:31. > :34:37.as the politicians' opportunity to support the British cycling
:34:37. > :34:42.revolution. As if by magic the day after our
:34:42. > :34:48.journey ended this part of the UK really did resemble a cycling
:34:48. > :34:52.utopia. 15,000 cyclists from across the UK descended on the capital for
:34:52. > :34:55.Ride London, the biggest cycling event the country has ever seen. It
:34:55. > :35:00.is relatively easy to organise a single weekend though, the real
:35:00. > :35:08.challenge for the UK will be in making cycling a sustainable and
:35:08. > :35:12.integrated part of the whole culture. Who wants to join a
:35:12. > :35:18.political party? Hardly anyone. About 1% of the electorate is a
:35:18. > :35:22.paid up member of one of the three main Westminster parties. SNP and
:35:22. > :35:27.Green Party membership is on the up from a low base, and UKIP are
:35:27. > :35:32.thought to have around 30,000 activists. What is it for someone
:35:32. > :35:39.who signs up and pays their subs. We have been to Clacton-on-Sea
:35:39. > :35:47.where the Tory membership is up 60% in two years.
:35:47. > :35:52.This stands no chance. Up against this. Filing cabinets ditched for
:35:52. > :35:56.guilded pianos, the pot plant neglected for topiary. Have you
:35:56. > :36:00.seen the afternoon tea you can get at their properties. No, they are
:36:00. > :36:10.not that lavish, but none the less, the National Trust has boomed while
:36:10. > :36:29.
:36:29. > :36:33.Most European countries have seen a decline in membership since the
:36:33. > :36:36.1980s, Britain's levels of membership are, however, among the
:36:36. > :36:41.lowest. As a percentage of the electorate it is only lower in
:36:41. > :36:45.Poland and Latvia. But in France and Germany it is not that much
:36:45. > :36:50.higher than us. Newsnight can reveal that President Obama's
:36:50. > :36:53.campaign manager is now joining the Conservatives' 2015 general
:36:53. > :36:56.election team. Newsnight broke this story, but now
:36:57. > :37:03.many are asking this question, the Tories may have hired another
:37:03. > :37:08.general, but where will be his foot soldiers?
:37:08. > :37:11.Influential activists' website, Conservative Home is looking to
:37:11. > :37:16.know exactly how many Tory members there are, right now nobody knows.
:37:16. > :37:20.We are told that the figures suggest rumours of the figures that
:37:20. > :37:26.we get that the membership is anywhere between 130,000 and
:37:26. > :37:29.100,000. There has been a fall. I think what this may suggest is that
:37:29. > :37:36.membership on the current model isn't sustainable. Whether it does
:37:36. > :37:39.or not, I think revealing these figures would be like going to the
:37:39. > :37:45.doctor if you know you have a problem. The experience is
:37:45. > :37:50.unpleasant but you have to do it. We are in Clacton on sea where one
:37:50. > :37:55.MP thinks that old party management is dead as a dod dough, and it is
:37:55. > :37:58.like the music store -- dodo, it is like HMV, we all know what happened
:37:58. > :38:06.to that. Instead you have to move to something like Spotify, I will
:38:06. > :38:09.let him explain. Welcome to the future of politics. You will have
:38:09. > :38:13.to explain your Spotify thesis for viewers? Spotify is a wonderful new
:38:13. > :38:16.way of selling music to people. It allows them to go on-line and
:38:16. > :38:20.listen to what they want when they want. It puts them in control. We
:38:20. > :38:23.need to sell politics that way and sell politics on-line. We need to
:38:24. > :38:28.allow people to have control. We need it allow them different tiers
:38:28. > :38:32.of membership. Unfortunate low we are still doing politics like it is
:38:32. > :38:39.1950 something, we are doing it in buildings like this and wondering
:38:39. > :38:45.why we are haemorrhaging membership. Look think, it is our -- look at
:38:45. > :38:51.this, this is our next flyer. But take a look at it, where do you see
:38:51. > :38:54.the Tory Party, let alone the logo, there isn't one. What is the theme?
:38:54. > :38:59."wake up Westminster", it is a different way of doing politics,
:38:59. > :39:02.there is not a whiff of Tory boy about t there is no lecturing of
:39:02. > :39:06.people, we want people to come as they are. We want people to
:39:06. > :39:11.recognise that in a room with 100 people you will get far more than
:39:11. > :39:15.100 opinions on any one topic. happened was I wanted to go to
:39:15. > :39:21.university to study politics and international relations. So I
:39:21. > :39:25.messaged and Digaoed who the local -- googled who the local MP was and
:39:25. > :39:29.I found him, and I messaged him on twit, and I asked was there any way
:39:29. > :39:33.to come and have a chat about politics and make sure it was what
:39:33. > :39:38.I wanted to do. I tweeted him, he tweeted me back, which was a
:39:38. > :39:45.surprise. It just sort of went from there. You don't think if twit
:39:45. > :39:53.didn't exist and Facebook, and e- mail -- twit didn't exist you would
:39:53. > :39:57.have gotten on the door and been old fashioneded? You think of
:39:57. > :40:00.politician -- fashioned? You think of politicians as being
:40:00. > :40:03.intimidating to approach, through Twitter you realise they are
:40:03. > :40:12.ordinary people and they are helping and making the country a
:40:12. > :40:16.better place if they can do it. other parties are aware of the
:40:16. > :40:22.disengagment, the Liberal Democrats have used software used in
:40:22. > :40:28.President Obama's election campaign, allowing them to Taylor canvasing
:40:28. > :40:30.to individuals. In the last few years -- tailor canvasing to
:40:30. > :40:34.different individual. Labour are changing too? We help people to
:40:34. > :40:36.take action on things that matter to them in their local communities.
:40:36. > :40:39.We realise just because Labour is out of Government it doesn't mean
:40:40. > :40:44.it is out of power. And that by working with people, whether they
:40:44. > :40:47.are Labour members or not we make ourselves more relevent to them on
:40:47. > :40:52.things they really care about. Politicians all seem to believe the
:40:52. > :40:57.future lies in action, not words. Consensus, a rare thing from
:40:57. > :41:00.politicians. What about other solutions to
:41:00. > :41:06.boosting membership of our political parties. To discuss I'm
:41:06. > :41:11.joined from Ipswich by the MP you saw in the film, and Labour peer
:41:11. > :41:16.and academic, Morris Glassman. First of all, before we hear your
:41:16. > :41:21.solutions, what does a Labour Party member get for �44.52 a year?
:41:21. > :41:26.the whole the minutes from the last meeting. Is that it? The minutes
:41:26. > :41:29.from the last meeting? I think the party is changing and it has to.
:41:29. > :41:32.You can vote in local constituencies, but the thing with
:41:32. > :41:35.Labour it is a bit different from the Conservatives, we have got a
:41:35. > :41:38.bit of a problem with capitalism, and we believe that the Labour
:41:38. > :41:43.Party is an important part of the solution to that of people getting
:41:43. > :41:47.together. We have toffee-paying, due-paying members in order to have
:41:47. > :41:53.MPs to stand up to the domination of the banks. What do you get as a
:41:53. > :41:57.Conservative Party member for �25 a year? Not a great deal, it is not a
:41:57. > :42:01.very attractive retail proposition, which is why we are haemorrhaging
:42:01. > :42:07.members. People in a sense pay �25 in order to be invited to come to a
:42:07. > :42:11.lot of very costly dinners. I think we can do politics differently. If
:42:11. > :42:15.we are looking to aggregate votes and opinion, we can do it in a very,
:42:15. > :42:19.very different way rather than running a series of dining clubs in
:42:19. > :42:24.the south-east of England. Labour has around just under 200,000
:42:24. > :42:28.members, how many members does a political party need to be viable
:42:28. > :42:31.across the UK do you think? I think the crucial thing and the
:42:31. > :42:35.discussion I would like to have with Douglas is that it is not
:42:35. > :42:39.really about a retail proposition, this is the way we govern ourselves.
:42:39. > :42:43.This is self-governance and I think the crucial thing is relationships,
:42:43. > :42:46.power, action. Politics is great and what we have to do is develop
:42:46. > :42:50.leaders from our local communities from our constituencies, they have
:42:50. > :42:54.to be able to campaign on the issues that they can agree and care
:42:54. > :42:58.about. Then they have to learn from it. We have to be much more
:42:58. > :43:07.tolerant of local failure and getting things right. With the
:43:07. > :43:11.party we used to have Ernest Bevan who never went to school, the
:43:11. > :43:15.movement was the teacher. We have forgotten about politics, politics
:43:15. > :43:23.is great. It is movement from the grassroots and the ground, do you
:43:23. > :43:27.agree Douglas? I do, I think it matters enormously if parties
:43:27. > :43:32.shrivel, if they exist only on paper as many Conservative
:43:32. > :43:36.Associations it is the case, what you ent up is a remote clique in
:43:36. > :43:40.Westminster who -- end up with a remote clique in Westminster who
:43:40. > :43:45.run the party with a few local franchises, and people feel
:43:45. > :43:50.disenaged. We can, if we run around the world see better ways of
:43:50. > :43:55.running party, look at the Five Star movement in Italy, it is web-
:43:55. > :43:59.based, one in four Italians voted for it. We need to look at that and
:43:59. > :44:02.work out how to turn party politics in this country on its head.
:44:02. > :44:06.Instead of it being run from Westminster create political
:44:06. > :44:08.parties are insurgent movements against the Westminster elite.
:44:08. > :44:14.sounds like you are saying there is no link between your Conservative
:44:14. > :44:19.Party members and the leadership, is that why the members are falling
:44:19. > :44:23.off the cliff, not literally? know one of the reasons why I think
:44:23. > :44:27.people aren't joining us, what do you get for it? Do you get to
:44:27. > :44:30.decide policy? No, the elite decide that. Do you get to decide who is
:44:30. > :44:35.the chairman of the party? No, that is the prerogative of one
:44:35. > :44:43.individual. You get to decide the leader, that is pretty crucial?
:44:43. > :44:47.Yeah. You do, once hopefully not very often. There is a strong
:44:47. > :44:50.argument to say back in the 1980s and 1970s as a mass membership
:44:50. > :44:54.organisation, had you had a voice, you could have a conference that
:44:54. > :44:58.was by the members rather than by big corporate lobby-vested
:44:58. > :45:04.interests that price the ordinary members out of attendance. Do you
:45:04. > :45:09.want to go back to the 1970s and 1980s? I have real afx for the 70s
:45:09. > :45:13.not really -- affectioned for the 70s, not really the 80s. It can't
:45:13. > :45:15.be this is about changes in rules, there is a new politics coming, a
:45:15. > :45:19.new politics that wants local power, that wants to have some control
:45:19. > :45:24.over their lives. Does Ed Miliband know there is a new politics coming,
:45:24. > :45:29.what is the disconnect there between the grassroots andership?
:45:29. > :45:32.have to give -- Leadership?I have to give Ed Miliband kudos on this,
:45:32. > :45:35.he has accepted there has to be radical culture change and
:45:35. > :45:38.political change. You can't get people involved in something that
:45:38. > :45:41.is meaningless, people want power and some control. If it is, I think
:45:41. > :45:45.it is parallel between the two parties, seven or eight people
:45:45. > :45:49.making the decisions, people are rightfully disengaged and kind of
:45:49. > :45:53.really disenchanted with that. There is a big change coming, it is
:45:53. > :45:57.not just procedural it is political. Do you think it is overly defensive
:45:57. > :46:00.of the Conservative Party not to tell people how many members you
:46:00. > :46:03.have got? I think it is maybe a little bit like those banks that
:46:03. > :46:10.don't want to reveal their balance sheet because there is bad news
:46:10. > :46:14.lurking there. I think we should fess up. I'm happy to say how many
:46:14. > :46:18.members my association has, it is when we are frank and honest is
:46:18. > :46:23.when we start to do something about it. The party nationally has to
:46:23. > :46:28.fess up and publish on Conservative Home how many ballot papers were
:46:28. > :46:31.sent out. I suspect it will be horrific and lower than 100,000.
:46:31. > :46:35.But if something is bad, if you face up to it you can start to fix
:46:35. > :46:41.it. We are starting to fix it in my constituency, only because we have
:46:41. > :46:51.acknowledged quite how bad things have become.
:46:51. > :47:19.
:47:19. > :47:23.That's it for tonight. Kirsty will clearing away. What we will find
:47:23. > :47:28.tomorrow morning is a chilly start, temperatures in single figures in
:47:28. > :47:38.the countryside. Misand fog. The cloud building more into the
:47:38. > :47:44.
:47:44. > :47:48.afternoon. That for Northern Sharp downpours but dry inbetween.
:47:48. > :47:54.In northern England more showers, heavy one, slow-moving, possibly a
:47:54. > :47:58.rumble of thunder. For parts of East Anglia where there was more
:47:58. > :48:03.cloud around, it is prieter with a few showers, warm in the sunshine.
:48:03. > :48:08.We will start to find that weather front creeping across the Irish Sea
:48:08. > :48:18.to approach Wales. It will hold off the shower activity through this
:48:18. > :48:28.