:00:12. > :00:18.Egyptian security forces claim be to be safeguarding the state. We'll
:00:18. > :00:27.hear live from Cairo and ask the Foreign Office if it's on the side
:00:27. > :00:32.of the army or the Muslim Brotherhood. Also tonight: Here, in
:00:32. > :00:39.the privacy of our homes, very large numbers of us are watching
:00:39. > :00:45.pornography. Make me believe it. There is something absurd about
:00:45. > :00:50.porn, yet it is consumed in deadly seriousness. How is it changing and
:00:50. > :01:00.what is it doing to us and the way we and our children think and act?
:01:00. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:05.We have porn enthusiasts, producers and critics with us. It is a long
:01:05. > :01:08.way short of civil war, but in some respects what's happening in the
:01:08. > :01:13.most important country in the Arab world begins to look as if it has
:01:13. > :01:16.the potential to go that way. The internationally respected
:01:16. > :01:21.Vice-President, Mohamed El Baradei, walked out of the government today
:01:21. > :01:24.in protest at the bloodshed by Egyptian forces in trying to clear
:01:24. > :01:29.supporters of the ousted former President from the streets. The
:01:29. > :01:35.health ministry says nearly 150 people have been killed and over
:01:35. > :01:41.1,400 injured. Let us go to Cairo now and talk to the BBC's Middle
:01:41. > :01:46.East editor, Jeremy Bowen. What is the mood in Cairo tonight, Jeremy?
:01:46. > :01:50.have driven through the city in the last hour or so. I can tell you
:01:50. > :01:54.there is a curfew, but people are moving around. As you get closer
:01:54. > :01:59.into the centre there are more military roadblocks. Journalists are
:01:59. > :02:03.able to move around in the area. There is a dispensation for us. I
:02:03. > :02:07.think that the thing about Egypt at the moment is that it's highly
:02:08. > :02:12.divided, it's very polarised, that is something which is a huge
:02:12. > :02:17.problem, not just for now, but for the future. Both sides are saying
:02:18. > :02:21.that the future of Egypt is at stake. Both sides are right. They
:02:21. > :02:29.have very different conceptions of what that future needs to be.
:02:29. > :02:34.there an obvious way out? No, there isn't. What they need to do is try
:02:34. > :02:39.to get together and try and decide the way forward and try and decide
:02:39. > :02:43.on some kind of nation national consensus. I don't see how they do
:02:43. > :02:47.that when people are being killed on the streets. What we are seeing at
:02:47. > :02:51.the moment is a consequence of the winner takes all politics of Egypt
:02:51. > :02:55.in the last couple of years. President Morsi was in offers,
:02:55. > :03:00.before he was ousted said he would govern for all Egyptians, but really
:03:00. > :03:04.governed for his supporters. The army and their supporters say they
:03:05. > :03:08.want to restore democracy. They have acted with such ferocity that, you
:03:08. > :03:15.know, they clearly want to remove the Muslim Brotherhood as a
:03:15. > :03:19.political force in the country. That has been tried before in the 40s and
:03:19. > :03:24.the 50s when they were, 40s the Muslim Brotherhood had a campaign of
:03:24. > :03:30.violence, in the 50s NASA pretty much destroyed their network. It
:03:30. > :03:35.took them a long time to recover. Out of all that came not just the
:03:35. > :03:39.Muslim Brotherhood, which has been governing in Egypt, the extreme
:03:39. > :03:42.jihadist ideologies that culminated in Al-Qaeda. What we are seeing at
:03:42. > :03:46.the moment, I think, will really shape the way things go in Egypt
:03:46. > :03:49.over the next generation. If it is shaping Egypt, it will help to shape
:03:49. > :03:54.the Middle East as well. Jeremy, thank you very much. With the story
:03:54. > :04:02.of today's events in Cairo and where it leaves Egypt's slow struggle
:04:02. > :04:08.towards becoming a functioning democracy Tim Whewell. Today was the
:04:08. > :04:13.day pa the patients of Egypt's new military backed authorities snapped.
:04:13. > :04:17.From 7.00 am interior ministry forces moved in with bulldozers to
:04:17. > :04:22.demolish the protest camp set up six weeks ago by supporters of the
:04:22. > :04:32.deposed Islamist President, Mohamed Morsi. There were tanks with special
:04:32. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:46.vehicles in the streets around the main camp in western Cairo, but
:04:47. > :04:51.thick clouds of black smoke hid much of what happened beyond. Earlier in
:04:52. > :04:56.the day, the security forces insisted they were only using
:04:56. > :05:06.teargas, but many witnesses reported seeing them fire live bullets at
:05:06. > :05:11.
:05:11. > :05:15.protesters. People are being make-shift field hospitals on Rabaa
:05:15. > :05:18.al-Adawiya Square, the Brotherhood claims thousands have been killed.
:05:18. > :05:25.The official death toll was much lower, it rose throughout the day.
:05:25. > :05:28.By late evening, the Health Ministry gave a total of 149 dead, among them
:05:28. > :05:33.a British cameraman for Sky News, Mick Dean. They moved in and from
:05:33. > :05:37.the moment that they moved in, they started using teargas and shooting
:05:37. > :05:42.very quickly. This was a use of force from the very beginning to
:05:43. > :05:48.break up the sit-in. I think the decision was also taken to move in
:05:48. > :05:53.with maximum force and this riot police does not know how to use
:05:53. > :05:57.force proportionally, do not know how to use live ammunition in a
:05:57. > :06:00.legal manner which is only targeting individuals who present a risk to
:06:00. > :06:05.the lives of the security forces. It's in the name of these people
:06:05. > :06:11.that the riot police have acted against the Brotherhood. The vast
:06:11. > :06:14.crowds that filled Tahrir Square and other Egyptian streets six weeks ago
:06:14. > :06:19.demanding the departure of Mohamed Morsi even though he was
:06:19. > :06:24.democratically-elected a year before. Since his over throw the new
:06:24. > :06:26.authorities installed by the army have launched a propaganda museum
:06:26. > :06:30.that have convinced many the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist
:06:30. > :06:34.organisation. State television showed footage of protesters firing
:06:34. > :06:44.on security forces. The authorities say guns and ammunition were found
:06:44. > :07:09.
:07:09. > :07:15.not been proved they indulged in any terrorism. It was the same firm line
:07:15. > :07:19.tonight from the Interior Minister. TRANSLATION: There is plans. There
:07:20. > :07:24.will be plans we will face arms with arms. There won't be any
:07:24. > :07:28.self-restraint from now on. Not all in the anti-Morsi camp believed that
:07:28. > :07:33.today's bloodshed was justified. One of the Egypt's most respected
:07:33. > :07:38.politicians, Mohamed El Baradei, prominent in the 2011 revolution,
:07:38. > :07:42.resigned as interim Vice-President today in protest. The United States,
:07:42. > :07:48.which gives the Egyptian military $1.5 billion a year, was equally
:07:49. > :07:54.shocked. Today's events are deplorable and they run counter to
:07:54. > :07:59.Egyptian aspirations for peace, inclusion and genuine democracy.
:07:59. > :08:06.Egyptians inside and outside of the government need to take a step back.
:08:06. > :08:09.They need to calm the situation. clashes involving Morsi supporters
:08:09. > :08:14.broke out today in the second city, Alexandria, and elsewhere in the
:08:14. > :08:18.country, the chances of reconciliation seem slim. This sort
:08:18. > :08:24.of violence will provide some justification, if you like, for the
:08:24. > :08:31.army to get more involved in the name of restoring security. That
:08:31. > :08:36.might be enough to keep the army popular, but I don't think they have
:08:36. > :08:43.that long to go on with this and retain international support.
:08:43. > :08:47.Tonight, the remains of the main Brotherhood camp was still ablaze as
:08:47. > :08:50.the authorities imposed a month-long state of emergency. Many will
:08:50. > :08:53.conclude that the security forces, acting in the name of the
:08:53. > :08:58.revolution, have brought Egypt back dangerously close to how it was
:08:58. > :09:00.under the old dictatorship. Here now is the Foreign Office Minister,
:09:00. > :09:04.Alistair Burt. I take it the British government condemns what happened
:09:04. > :09:09.today? Yes, the Foreign Secretary put out a statement this morning
:09:09. > :09:13.condemning the use of force to clear the protests. We deeply regretted
:09:13. > :09:16.the failure of the attempts at compromise over the past month. The
:09:16. > :09:20.tran di-is what happened today could have been avoided. Does the British
:09:20. > :09:25.government consider the government in Egypt legitimate? We work with
:09:25. > :09:29.it. It clearly has a degree of authority. It can't be denied that
:09:29. > :09:33.the population in Egypt is deeply polarised, there are millions of
:09:33. > :09:36.people who support the government. Equally, there are large numbers who
:09:36. > :09:40.do not. We work - we have a relationship with the state, not a
:09:40. > :09:45.government. We consider it a legitimate government? Yes, we
:09:45. > :09:49.probably do in that it is operating there, but it has set a timetable
:09:49. > :09:53.for a transition to democracy. We have said that the military should
:09:53. > :09:56.not be intervening in a democratic situation. In a sense, we are where
:09:56. > :10:01.we are. Mohamed El Baradei says the only people who will benefit from
:10:01. > :10:06.today's action are terrorists and extremists? Do you share that view?
:10:06. > :10:11.He has a serious point. The danger of making it clear to those who have
:10:11. > :10:14.a belief in moderate political Islam they should not be taking part in
:10:14. > :10:19.the political process is of course they feel excluded and there are
:10:19. > :10:22.risks. What we don't know is whether or not what will follow, what has
:10:22. > :10:26.happened today, will be an attempt to bring in the Muslim Brotherhood
:10:27. > :10:30.or bring them back into political process. If there is an attempt to
:10:30. > :10:33.exclude them completely Mr El Baradei's comments are highly
:10:33. > :10:38.pertinent. Do you think there is a danger of civil war in Egypt?
:10:38. > :10:43.think it would be wrong from this distance to say that something like
:10:43. > :10:48.that is likely to happen. Clearly, the situation is exceptionally
:10:48. > :10:53.polarised and people are deeply split. What we have seen is the
:10:53. > :10:55.violence encouraged today has -- incurred today has moved elsewhere.
:10:55. > :11:01.We will plead with all those with responsibilities to be restrained,
:11:01. > :11:06.to ease the violence down. Could it, it could, but I think we are some
:11:06. > :11:10.distance away from that yet. have been out there? Yes, recently.
:11:10. > :11:14.Have you spoken to the Muslim Brotherhood? Yes.Have you spoken to
:11:14. > :11:17.the army? Does it seem like a stable place? It's a deeply fractured
:11:17. > :11:22.place. You have the Muslim Brotherhood who feel that power has
:11:22. > :11:25.been unfairly ripped from them. You have a population supporting a
:11:25. > :11:30.military intervention, who believe that order was restored from a
:11:30. > :11:34.failing government. What you don't have is an express of popular will
:11:34. > :11:38.through a ballot box to give a serious sense of legitmacy and a way
:11:38. > :11:43.forward. Unless there is a compromise between the two blocks
:11:43. > :11:47.the violence will probably continue. It has been six weeks since the
:11:47. > :11:51.military seized power have we decided whether a coup was staged?
:11:51. > :11:55.We haven't really. In a sense you don't need to be dancing about on
:11:55. > :12:00.the head of a pin. There has been military intervention. Has it been
:12:01. > :12:04.without popular support? No. It has had popular support. It does not
:12:04. > :12:07.have the legitmacy that a democratically-elected government
:12:07. > :12:11.would have. They came to restore order. They wanted to see a
:12:11. > :12:16.transition. What we have seen today has set back that process. What is
:12:16. > :12:21.the problem with calling it a coup? It sounds like a coup? There isn't a
:12:21. > :12:24.problem with calling a coup. If you believe coup is about a group of
:12:24. > :12:29.generals, no politicians anywhere - The military always claim, when they
:12:29. > :12:32.stage a coup they always claim to have popular support, don't they?
:12:32. > :12:37.From the millions in the street that has some backing. That isn't the
:12:37. > :12:41.point. It's where Egypt is going and whether what is happening now is in
:12:42. > :12:46.anyway contributing to a democratic future. If the political process is
:12:46. > :12:49.to be damaged by trying to drive one section of it completely away and
:12:49. > :12:53.the violence today will not have helped in that process, then you
:12:53. > :12:57.worry about where Egypt is going. What the new government have got to
:12:57. > :13:02.demonstrate is that there is a path way - Where do you think Egypt is
:13:02. > :13:05.going? I don't think at this stage, honestly tonight, anyone knows.
:13:05. > :13:11.Jeremy put it clearly in terms of a battle for the soul of Egypt. That
:13:11. > :13:16.is going on. You asked at the beginning of the titles whose side
:13:16. > :13:19.are the British government on? We are on the side of the Egyptian
:13:20. > :13:23.people. We have to support the Egyptian people p in finding a path
:13:24. > :13:28.way back to democracy that involves us in engaging with all politicians
:13:28. > :13:31.as we have been doing relentlessly over the past few weeks to prevent
:13:31. > :13:36.the tragedy that happened today. It's a tragedy that wasn't
:13:36. > :13:40.successful. Thank you very much. When did you last watch pornography?
:13:40. > :13:44.There are perhaps some adults in Britain who have never seen any.
:13:44. > :13:49.It's ubiquity or the ubiquity of access to the internet means it is
:13:49. > :13:57.in some form or other available day or night in the privacy of anyone's
:13:57. > :14:00.home. Here, sometimes for free, more often for than paying for it you can
:14:00. > :14:05.watch people you have never met doing the most intimate of things
:14:06. > :14:09.for the delectation of their viewers. What their viewers is best
:14:09. > :14:15.not thought about. What effect is all this exposure having upon us and
:14:15. > :14:25.upon our children? We will discuss that shortly with our assembled
:14:25. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:38.shelve magazines, things have changed. When the internet was fast
:14:38. > :14:42.enough to carry video it's not just the scale of porn consumption that
:14:43. > :14:48.rocketed but what is in the videos is changing fast. Action.You don't
:14:48. > :14:53.need much to shoot an adult movie. For Laura Macrow, one of Britain's
:14:53. > :14:59.pop porn directors it's the car park of her studio on the edge of
:14:59. > :15:03.Birmingham. Turn around.Laura shoots for TV and for big named porn
:15:03. > :15:11.brands in America. Half the job is tailoring the content to meet
:15:11. > :15:14.specific rules and regulations. is nice. Make me believe it. Over
:15:14. > :15:19.the years it has certainly changed in terms of we have to keep it tame.
:15:19. > :15:22.We have to consider the regulatory rules, everybody has a perception as
:15:22. > :15:27.to how they see something. We can't do anything that is aggression.
:15:27. > :15:31.Anything that would be harmful to an individual. You know, so obviously
:15:31. > :15:35.sometimes in adult movies that has appeared to be the case. It's
:15:35. > :15:39.actually not. Everything is consensual and above board. Large
:15:39. > :15:44.amounts of porn are now available free because of the so-called tube
:15:44. > :15:48.sites where, with no age warnings, you can click straight through to
:15:48. > :15:56.hardcore video and that is not regulated because it is based
:15:56. > :16:01.offshore. What you do you you create a massive massively (inaudible)
:16:01. > :16:06.which is free. You get visitors coming to your website. You upsell
:16:06. > :16:11.them premium versions of that service for $20 or �20 a month
:16:11. > :16:16.whatever. It's in the past five or six years you had the ex-edges
:16:16. > :16:22.sploegs in free porn the producer cans see quickly what the consumers
:16:22. > :16:30.want and produce more of it. Research on recent content is
:16:30. > :16:34.scarce. In a 2005 study of the 60 top selling DVDs, 304 scenes were
:16:34. > :16:42.analysed 88% contained physical aggression, a woman being spanked,
:16:42. > :16:47.forced to gag or being slapped. 49% contained verbal aggression. Targets
:16:47. > :16:52.were most often depicted as liking or ignoring the aggression. The most
:16:52. > :16:57.recent evidence is anecdotal. Here is what the regulator says. It's
:16:58. > :17:01.very common place for sex scenes in modern pornography to feature women
:17:01. > :17:08.being penetrated in multiple or fillses at the same time. It's
:17:08. > :17:11.common for women to be slapped, spat a at and treated as, you know,
:17:11. > :17:17.objectives to be tested to the limits of their physical
:17:17. > :17:23.capabilities. That is pretty standard. That is not in just what
:17:23. > :17:31.we might call sado-masochism pornography? No.It's a theme in
:17:31. > :17:41.almost normal pornography? The internet has changed porn in another
:17:41. > :17:41.
:17:41. > :17:45.massive way. Interaction. Victoria, student works as a webcam performer
:17:46. > :17:50.it's in the nature of the medium for the content to push boundaries
:17:50. > :17:55.towards new kinds of activity. they see what I do, or they hear me
:17:55. > :17:59.talk about it, they certainly discover certain things that they
:17:59. > :18:07.didn't know that they liked or they didn't realise were consumable to
:18:07. > :18:11.have. So I find, in that sense, what I do quite powerful and, in a
:18:11. > :18:14.positive way because I think it is helping people understanding and
:18:14. > :18:19.coming to terms with their sexuality. They come across someone
:18:19. > :18:25.like me who works in the industry I do, I list 100 things they have
:18:25. > :18:29.never heard of, that are potential for them to have Because there are
:18:29. > :18:34.thousands of women doing this kind of work in Britain alone, it's
:18:34. > :18:41.impossible for a regulator even to know what is in the content, let
:18:41. > :18:51.alone police it. Let us discover pornography with various supporters
:18:51. > :18:55.
:18:55. > :19:00.and opponents of it. Is Is Anna Arrowsmith you promote these movies?
:19:00. > :19:10.There is a lot of porn out there, not being paid for. It 's a growing
:19:10. > :19:20.sector? Yes. We have our own channel now. We have dust TV, Feminist Porn
:19:20. > :19:25.Awards and Berlin Film Festival. For the mainstream stuff it's been
:19:25. > :19:30.attacked strongly. Benedict Garrett you are in this business too. How
:19:30. > :19:35.does it feel to you. Does it feel like a real growth industry? There
:19:35. > :19:38.is so much free porn out there it's challenging. Equal Equally, that
:19:38. > :19:43.forces producers to be creative in the pornography they do produce.
:19:43. > :19:48.There is a lot more pornography out there produced for women. You know,
:19:48. > :19:54.people who want to see much more detail in terms of the quality of
:19:54. > :19:59.the photography, the quality of the storyline. So because more and more
:19:59. > :20:04.are accessing pornography online, increasingly women, there are new
:20:04. > :20:10.markets pornography is trying to tap on. Do you feel anything morally
:20:10. > :20:15.reprehencible about what you do? I certainly - I don't sit here and
:20:15. > :20:20.represent (inaudible) Of course not. You do? When I perform in
:20:20. > :20:27.pornography I would not do anything I would not personally watch myself.
:20:27. > :20:31.I call what I enjoy in terms of pornography vanilla pornography. I
:20:31. > :20:36.like seeing attractive people having sex. That is generally what I like
:20:36. > :20:41.to see. Is the pattern of pornography changing as seems to be
:20:41. > :20:46.suggested? There are various kind of changes that are occurring. The big
:20:46. > :20:53.story in internet porn. In terms of production there are various stories
:20:53. > :20:58.we could focus on. There is Anna feminist porn and user generated
:20:58. > :21:04.pornography is one of the big stories. Equally, the internet
:21:04. > :21:11.hasn't closed down every form of more traditional delivery of porn.
:21:11. > :21:18.There are still magazines available to - for people to use. Also DVDs,
:21:18. > :21:21.certain kinds of DVDs have become important like parody films.
:21:21. > :21:25.suggestion we heard from the former regulator, there is more extreme
:21:25. > :21:32.stuff out there, is that true? is one of the claims that is made.
:21:32. > :21:36.Actually, it depends on how you look at the particular scenes. In the VT
:21:36. > :21:43.there was some talk about slapping of women. Well, it depends how that
:21:43. > :21:47.- what the context of that is. If that consensual spanking, does that
:21:47. > :21:51.count as violence in quite the way it seems to suggest in that piece of
:21:51. > :21:55.research? What is going on here? This is certainly something that,
:21:55. > :22:02.you know, it didn't exist at anything like its current level
:22:02. > :22:06.20/30 years ago. Is this a case of supply creating demand or what?
:22:06. > :22:11.think there is certainly more women watching porn now. A third of online
:22:11. > :22:15.con Soviet Unioners are female. It's not just women buying stuff, but
:22:15. > :22:19.allowing men - they are using it as couples. When it becomes more
:22:19. > :22:25.acceptable by women then men will become more likely to use it, but
:22:25. > :22:32.also more vocal about using it. It's a mixture of, yes, we are do doing
:22:32. > :22:38.more, but we are being honest and open about it as well. What do you
:22:38. > :22:41.think is behind it? It is getting more violent and more available to
:22:41. > :22:45.everyone. People have been saying it, it isn't a new thing. There is a
:22:45. > :22:51.lot more free porn. You can see a whole scene online, you know, not
:22:51. > :22:53.that long ago it was harder to see really long scenes. That is maybe
:22:53. > :22:57.the internet facilitating things because previously you would have to
:22:57. > :23:06.subscribe to a website. There are tube websites where people are
:23:06. > :23:10.watching porn for free and, people used to buy DVDs or VHS tapes.
:23:10. > :23:15.the whole country master baiting more or what? Well, maybe. Maybe
:23:15. > :23:20.they are more honest. People in the past, as you say, would have gone to
:23:20. > :23:26.shops to buy DVDs that would have put off a lot of people,
:23:26. > :23:31.particularly women. The idea of going to Soho and dirty men finding
:23:31. > :23:36.videos. People can explore their sexuality like never before. It has
:23:36. > :23:39.been suppressed - In the intimacy of their own home. I think what I'm
:23:39. > :23:44.seeing as part of my work in the violence against women organisation
:23:44. > :23:47.is some of the fallout from this. As you were saying there, Benedict,
:23:47. > :23:52.that some sort of material that would have been quite hard to seek
:23:52. > :23:58.out would have had quite a significant and serious
:23:58. > :24:04.consequences. I'm thinking in terms of of the violent & extreme
:24:04. > :24:08.pornography and rape pornography is available within two clicks that
:24:08. > :24:13.pref ledges of that material has certain effects. It has certain
:24:13. > :24:17.social impacts. The fact that I would have to disagree with what
:24:17. > :24:23.Clarissa was saying in terms of the different context around acts like
:24:23. > :24:30.spanking. The way that mainstream pornography frames violence against
:24:30. > :24:35.women - Why it is prolive rating in the way it is. How does it seem to
:24:35. > :24:40.you Vivienne? What is worrying is it is available to everybody whether
:24:40. > :24:45.you are looking for it. It appears that porn is looking for you as a
:24:45. > :24:50.web browser it pops up where you are not necessarily looking for it. It
:24:50. > :24:55.is hidden over the web. It requires you to click on it It does. I don't
:24:56. > :25:01.agree with this arrangement. I don't see pop-ups coming up. I don't see
:25:01. > :25:04.stuff unless I go looking for porn I don't find. It you don't find it in
:25:04. > :25:08.magazines openingly or on television. I disagree with that. I
:25:08. > :25:18.have done web searchers for something that seems innocent.
:25:18. > :25:18.
:25:18. > :25:24.were you looking for? Do you want to know Yes?Georgian embroeder erred -
:25:24. > :25:31.You were inviting to look at pornography? I was. Search engines
:25:31. > :25:35.rely on what you researched before. When she argues you put the word
:25:35. > :25:39.porn in you get rape porn that is because she writes a lot and
:25:39. > :25:47.discusses about rape and stuff like that. Most people would just get
:25:47. > :25:51.mainstream, I don't know how you are getting that, we just won't ask you!
:25:51. > :25:55.Unyoung people will often look for porn because they are not getting
:25:55. > :25:59.good education. They look to find out what sex is. When you get that
:25:59. > :26:02.what you find is a particular version of sex. That is something
:26:02. > :26:05.which is a really important part of why people are searching for
:26:05. > :26:08.pornography. If they are searching because they want to watch it, that
:26:08. > :26:13.is one issue. Young people have always searched for information
:26:13. > :26:21.about sex, haven't they? Absolutely they have. It isn't a new
:26:21. > :26:25.phenomenon, it's easier to access. What we see at Brook is people
:26:25. > :26:31.having concerns and anxieties and questions - We will look at that in
:26:31. > :26:36.a moment or two. Now, there are all sorts of aspects to this. And one of
:26:36. > :26:42.the things that we will look at now is some of the consequences of
:26:42. > :26:52.exposure to porn. Consequences for relationships, for children and for
:26:52. > :26:56.
:26:56. > :27:00.society as a whole. Paul Mason computer screen has become a window
:27:00. > :27:10.into a wide range of sexual activity. What is that doing to
:27:10. > :27:13.
:27:13. > :27:21.people? Cindy Gallop, a woman who dates mainly young younger men set
:27:21. > :27:26.up the website Make Love Not Porn because of a change in men's
:27:26. > :27:29.behaviour she attributes to pornography. Many men said to me on
:27:29. > :27:33.their first sexual encounter with someone they were dating they found
:27:33. > :27:37.themselves being addressed with the language that you hear in porn
:27:37. > :27:42.films, which is fine if over time you have agreed you are both into
:27:42. > :27:46.that kind of thing, but can be a real shock and a very jar jarring
:27:46. > :27:51.when it happens unexpectedly the first time you go to bed together.
:27:51. > :27:57.It's illegal to provide porn to minors they do see it. Some who
:27:57. > :28:05.study it are concerned about its effects on adolescent mens. Years
:28:05. > :28:09.ago when a boy would find his father Playboy he got glimpses into women
:28:09. > :28:13.bent over smiling in a cornfield. When he gets into the internet via a
:28:13. > :28:18.smartphone, computer he is catapulted into a world of sexual
:28:18. > :28:22.cruelty. That world is available to him 24-hours a day. There is very,
:28:22. > :28:30.very little what we would call soft-core porn on the internet. That
:28:30. > :28:33.has been wiped away by the sfri. Does violent -- industry. Does
:28:33. > :28:37.violent porn cause violent behaviour? It is hard to find
:28:37. > :28:47.evidence for that. What is clearer is images that become more extreme
:28:47. > :28:54.and addiction. Paula Hall deals people -- with people with sex
:28:54. > :28:58.addiction. It's exaggerating a natural and desire to seek out
:28:58. > :29:05.attractive sexual partners. It is giving us constant endless nof elt.
:29:05. > :29:10.Our brains are becoming more and more wired towards those
:29:10. > :29:15.pornographic images than it is towards partnered sex. Adolescents
:29:15. > :29:21.are in a stage of change and pruning sometimes those other path ways for
:29:21. > :29:26.partnered sex aren't developing at all Other psychologists dispute the
:29:26. > :29:31.possibility of sex addiction. Victoria, a webcam performer, says
:29:31. > :29:36.she sees signs of addiction among her clients. It has the potential to
:29:36. > :29:39.be addictive, it's easy and it's friendly and warm. A Lott of these
:29:39. > :29:43.clients know when they log on. If I have a relationship with them over a
:29:43. > :29:48.certain amount of time, I'm going to be happy to see them and catch up
:29:48. > :29:53.with them and have a chat and see how they are. It's like seeing an
:29:53. > :29:58.old friend. They forget how much money and time they spend on me. Do
:29:58. > :30:02.I think it's damaging, yes, it's not my place to tell them to stop.
:30:02. > :30:07.British government has signalled it will require internet providers to
:30:07. > :30:12.filter out porn unless users specifically opt-in. Within the
:30:12. > :30:17.industry views on this are mixed. people want to watch porn they
:30:17. > :30:20.should opt-in to it. When people do opt-in people can't see as a bad
:30:20. > :30:25.light because if they want to look for it, they want to watch it, that
:30:25. > :30:29.is their own choice. David Cameron needs to stop trying to control
:30:29. > :30:35.people under a banner of protecting them because it's protecting nobody.
:30:35. > :30:39.It makes jobs harder and it, sort of, perpetuates the idea what is not
:30:39. > :30:47.normal is damaging. The fact remains, never before have so many
:30:47. > :30:53.men had so much access to extreme imagery and no political party is
:30:53. > :30:59.proposing to censor it outright. Let us talk about some of the effects of
:30:59. > :31:07.pornography. Julia Long what do you think it's doing the way men regard
:31:07. > :31:11.women? I was talking to my colleagues colleagues today and some
:31:11. > :31:17.of the test moanies that have come out of that work are really
:31:17. > :31:25.seriously troubling. The types of language that are used to talk about
:31:25. > :31:28.girls and their peer groups. The kinds of - in the recent office
:31:28. > :31:34.Office of the Children's Commissioner, the OCC report, one
:31:34. > :31:36.men said porn is everywhere. A 14-year-old boy involved in a
:31:36. > :31:42.multiple perpetrator rape of a 11-year-old testified it was like
:31:42. > :31:46.being in a porn film. What we are seeing is a very, very troubling set
:31:46. > :31:51.of consequences of this material being so available. I think when we
:31:51. > :31:55.talk about the impact of it, we tend to have a narrow definition of how
:31:55. > :31:58.it may or may not cause violence. We have to look at the reality for
:31:58. > :32:02.young women who are growing up having to deal with these kinds of
:32:03. > :32:07.attitudes. Doesn't that bother you? No, because the facts don't actually
:32:07. > :32:14.support that. Young people today are actually waiting longer to have sex.
:32:14. > :32:17.Young girls especially. The studies show England, North America and
:32:17. > :32:21.Australia show that violence against young people and sexual violence
:32:21. > :32:25.against them is the lowest it has ever been. Pregnancy rates are at
:32:25. > :32:35.the lowest for 30 years. Rape has been dropping since the early 80s,
:32:35. > :32:36.
:32:36. > :32:43.young girls when they do - The Home Office estimates... It has stayed
:32:43. > :32:47.around the 80,000 mark. What is your experience with young people?
:32:47. > :32:50.majority distinguish between fantasy and reality if they have an adult
:32:50. > :32:55.who communicates with them, good education and good support. There is
:32:56. > :33:03.absolutely no doubt that young people are see seeing things which
:33:03. > :33:07.sometimes lead them to question and to be confused and sometimes to be
:33:07. > :33:12.inquiztive. The majority of young people do navigate their way through
:33:12. > :33:17.relationships fairly well. We have a job - one of the key things about
:33:17. > :33:20.this is, let us talk about sex and about why young people need to be -
:33:20. > :33:24.want to have sex and when they want to have sex rather than just about
:33:24. > :33:29.pornography. We still will not talk about young people and sexuality.
:33:29. > :33:35.Until we do, then we are in danger of clamping down on a particular
:33:35. > :33:38.area that seems comfortable rather than changing our culture.
:33:38. > :33:43.Andrew Symes what is your experience? Have you seen
:33:44. > :33:47.pornography? No. The church is recognising this is a problem. I
:33:47. > :33:49.want to go back to what is said about addiction. There is
:33:49. > :33:53.controversy about whether that is actually true or not. Certainly,
:33:53. > :33:56.churches are now waking up to the fact that large numbers of their
:33:56. > :34:00.members are coming forward and saying - we have a problem in that
:34:00. > :34:04.we are watching this stuff. We feel as if we are addicted to it. We
:34:04. > :34:09.can't get away from it, it is causing us shame and we don't - we
:34:09. > :34:13.don't want to do it, but we keep coming back to it again and again.
:34:13. > :34:16.These are members of the church? and clergy and ordinary members of
:34:16. > :34:21.the church. It's now people are being open about this, which is
:34:21. > :34:25.obviously a good thing, but the emphasis now is on people who
:34:25. > :34:32.actually are feeling this is a negative thing for them. Yet, they
:34:32. > :34:36.can't help themselves from going back to it. Is that in comparison to
:34:36. > :34:43.a scriptures, they feel bad because they have been set up to think that
:34:43. > :34:47.sex is bad. The feelings of negativity you have around normal
:34:47. > :34:53.adult sexuality, I was - I wasn't raised really terriblibly Catholic,
:34:53. > :34:58.I went to a Catholic primary school and went to church, for me when I
:34:58. > :35:01.realised I was gay they made it difficult. For me looking online and
:35:01. > :35:05.looking at pornography it was something of a comfort to realise
:35:05. > :35:10.I'm not a freak. There are gay people, it's OK. Also, trying to
:35:10. > :35:15.look at norm normal educational websites as well because sex
:35:15. > :35:18.education at school was not there. It was totally inadequate. Given by
:35:18. > :35:24.sixth-formers who treated it as a joke. One of the things they said,
:35:24. > :35:28.the only thing they said in relation to homosexuality, "even benders need
:35:28. > :35:38.to use condoms otherwise they will get AIDS, even though they already
:35:38. > :35:43.
:35:43. > :35:47.do." I was a former Head of of (inaudible) at a school. I find it
:35:47. > :35:52.bizarre that religion criticised pornography when the amount of
:35:52. > :35:57.misery brought on this planet up until now and including now through
:35:58. > :36:01.multiple reasons also because of the shame that religion puts on sexual
:36:01. > :36:05.expression and sexual liberalism and the guilt people feel because of
:36:05. > :36:09.that, being explore masturbation and exploring different sides of their
:36:09. > :36:12.sexuality, the amount of misery put on people not to mention the deaths
:36:12. > :36:17.that people suffer in certain societies because they explore those
:36:18. > :36:22.things, is not in anyway comparable to - there is no proven negative
:36:22. > :36:28.side to pornography. There is evidence for and against. The direct
:36:28. > :36:31.effect of religions on this planet far outweigh - You could say some
:36:31. > :36:36.respects pornography can be quite effective in keeping some
:36:36. > :36:42.relationships together? Well, apparently that is what some people
:36:42. > :36:46.say, but certainly mainstream Christian teaching, from other
:36:46. > :36:51.religions as well, they are quite clear that sex is a great gift from
:36:51. > :36:55.God, it is to be used within certain boundaries. We all draw the
:36:55. > :37:02.boundaries in different ways, don't we? In different places. It's
:37:02. > :37:06.important - If you have a couple who have different levels of sexual
:37:07. > :37:13.desire and one of them chooses to use pornography and master bait, and
:37:13. > :37:18.it keeps the relationship going, that is a good thing, isn't it?
:37:18. > :37:23.think mainstream Christian teaching has always held that sexual intimacy
:37:23. > :37:26.is between a couple who are committed to each other in a
:37:26. > :37:31.monogamous relationship anything outside of that - What about the
:37:31. > :37:36.people who don't have social skills to form relationships? We are
:37:36. > :37:39.focussing on the negatives here and the possibilities of keeping not
:37:39. > :37:43.terribly great relationships on track we have a changing
:37:43. > :37:50.relationship with our bodies, with media, with sexuality now. There are
:37:50. > :37:54.plenty of people out there who are using pornography as an ajunction to
:37:54. > :37:57.their relationship. It's an important one. It may not be
:37:57. > :38:05.produced pornography but their own material theys are generating.
:38:05. > :38:10.you ever use pornography? This is - Let me finish this question. Do you
:38:10. > :38:15.ever use pornography? Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the significant
:38:15. > :38:19.things that is quite obvious as a trend is now there is more
:38:19. > :38:23.pornography available in the privacy of your own home it's more
:38:23. > :38:27.accessible to women. That empowers women to think about their
:38:27. > :38:32.relationship to sex and to their bodies and the kind of relationships
:38:32. > :38:36.and sexual activities they want to engage in that is unprecedented.
:38:36. > :38:42.you compare it to - I need to come in here. We are in danger of
:38:42. > :38:45.constructing pornography as this kind of liberating potential for
:38:45. > :38:50.sexual expression. This is certainly not what the we are hearing on the
:38:50. > :38:53.front-line of supporting women who have experienced male violence where
:38:53. > :38:57.often pornography has either been part of that violence, where women
:38:57. > :39:01.have been coerced into acting out. Whether it's young women that are
:39:01. > :39:06.testifying to this in the schools work we are doing where they say
:39:06. > :39:11.things like - I feel I am under pressure. Sexually to behave there
:39:11. > :39:20.are certain things expected of me to behave like a porn star. With adult
:39:20. > :39:26.women who have experience experienced being coerced into
:39:26. > :39:30.playing - We can't hear everyone if you speak at the same time. To say
:39:30. > :39:36.that young women are being coerced into acting in particular ways as a
:39:36. > :39:42.result of pornography, first of all, reduces all of culture just to
:39:42. > :39:51.pornography. They may have positive and negative - Pornography is
:39:51. > :39:54.prevalent in our culture -- Tell us -- hang on. There is the whole issue
:39:54. > :39:58.around consent. All of us would share the concerns about around
:39:58. > :40:01.sexual violence. The conversation has to focus on consent and choice.
:40:01. > :40:05.By focussing on the pornography we focus on something which is tangible
:40:05. > :40:09.to deal with. When we talk to young people, some young people do
:40:09. > :40:14.experience pressure because of pornography, some because of a whole
:40:14. > :40:18.range of other reasons. Fundamental to it, if we don't address the issue
:40:18. > :40:23.around consent around parents talking to children, through
:40:23. > :40:27.society, better education we will fail. One of the key things that is
:40:27. > :40:30.important here is the internet can become bedevilled here. The internet
:40:30. > :40:34.is a force for good when it comes to advice and information for young
:40:34. > :40:39.people. Any of the controls that we put on this have to be done with a
:40:39. > :40:42.view, if we get it wrong, we put young people at risk of not getting
:40:42. > :40:48.advice and help. That includes the violence against women organisations
:40:48. > :40:54.and others as well. This link between harm between for women
:40:54. > :40:58.especially and porn comes from a book in 1981. We had a rhetoric
:40:58. > :41:04.which is about violence and about damage for women for 30 years. It's
:41:04. > :41:07.very difficult for us to think in any other term. If you compare that
:41:07. > :41:11.to another moral panic which didn't happen, which could have happened,
:41:11. > :41:15.the comparison between professional boxing and, for instance, street
:41:15. > :41:19.violence. We didn't have that moral panic. It's very clear we can look
:41:19. > :41:23.at boxing and say, that is a game with special rules, people are very
:41:23. > :41:27.capable of looking at it and seeing the very difference between two
:41:27. > :41:30.people who consent fighting in a ring and going out and just fighting
:41:30. > :41:40.people without their consent. We would be able to do that with
:41:40. > :41:44.pornography were it not for that book. To frame him as a moral
:41:44. > :41:49.(inaudible) is ridiculous. Pornography do you like? A wide
:41:49. > :41:52.range. The primary concern for me is that it is being produced in a
:41:52. > :41:57.clearly consensual environment. it not true, I don't want to intrude
:41:57. > :42:04.too much, you have been the victim of sexual violence yourself?
:42:04. > :42:07.Absolutely. I don't understand what it has to do with my engaging with
:42:07. > :42:14.consensually engaging pornography. Have you been a victim of sexual
:42:14. > :42:19.violence the representation, albeit with consenting actors, is of sexual
:42:19. > :42:23.violence, where does -- how does that add up? If I have been hit by a
:42:23. > :42:27.car I don't want to see a movie that has been hit by a car? It's a
:42:27. > :42:32.fantasy. I enjoy the fantasy of the loss of control. It doesn't mean
:42:32. > :42:36.that the real experience of a genuine nonconsensual violation has
:42:36. > :42:39.to be acceptable. It's similar to going on a rollercoaster. You ride a
:42:39. > :42:42.rollercoaster. You are out of control within a controlled way. You
:42:42. > :42:45.have to trust that the person who produced it and the person who
:42:46. > :42:49.operates it has enough of a concern for your safety that they will
:42:49. > :42:54.ensure that you are safe in that environment. To allow you to
:42:54. > :42:59.experience an extreme of emotion you couldn't do otherwise. It 's a
:42:59. > :43:02.fantasy. The whole question of control and access to pornography
:43:02. > :43:07.has become very topical and the Prime Minister and various others
:43:07. > :43:10.have expressed a view on it. What is your view, Vivienne Pattinson? I
:43:10. > :43:15.think the solution that has been suggested that filters will be
:43:15. > :43:19.offered to all new internet service providing customers this year and
:43:19. > :43:23.they will come with a default filter on, unless you untick it, which is a
:43:23. > :43:27.simple thing to do, will give a degree of protection, I think. The
:43:27. > :43:32.Rosie world of pornography that has been described here that is quite
:43:32. > :43:36.consensual and all the rest of it, does not, I think, tally with what I
:43:36. > :43:42.have seen with, you know, five minutes on Google putting porn into
:43:42. > :43:47.a search engine and seeing what comes out. What kind of research do
:43:47. > :43:57.you do around the materials you look at? That is all I need to do.It
:43:57. > :43:57.
:43:57. > :44:04.doesn't actually. She is looking for embroidery patterns. Actually -She
:44:04. > :44:09.is entitled to be free of it? People put porn into Google because
:44:09. > :44:16.they are being -- looking for information. The kind of stuff they
:44:16. > :44:22.are finding within a couple of clicks is not acceptable. We should
:44:22. > :44:30.be having a wider discussion about sex education rather than demonising
:44:30. > :44:35.porn. Should 1 o 00-year-olds have unsupervised access to a computer.
:44:35. > :44:39.We know they do. Why do people blame the filter companies. The companies
:44:39. > :44:43.that sell you software that is meant to stop kids seeing it. They aric
:44:43. > :44:47.maing money out of not providing something that they promise and
:44:47. > :44:54.giving you a false promise. At the moment it's like the porn industry
:44:54. > :44:58.is being blamed, Smirnoff is being blamed for allowing a shopkeeper to
:44:58. > :45:02.buying under age alcohol. It's wrong. It's not us - we don't sell
:45:02. > :45:07.to under age people. Question of controls, do you have something you
:45:07. > :45:13.want to say on controls? More about the way the porn industry is being
:45:13. > :45:16.framed as an innocent victim and that it's being held up in the dock.
:45:16. > :45:21.Clarissa you study this industry, I'm staggered you have nothing
:45:21. > :45:26.critical. You appear to have nothing critical to say about it. I have
:45:26. > :45:30.plenty - What is your idea on controls? Well, I think first of all
:45:30. > :45:34.I think, as we said, it's important people should be able to not have to
:45:34. > :45:38.look at porn and people should be helped if they don't want to look at
:45:38. > :45:43.it and they feel themselves sort of trapped and sucked into it, there
:45:43. > :45:47.should be ways of helping people. How? To get out. The churches are
:45:47. > :45:51.developing programmes to do that. I don't know how other people are for
:45:51. > :45:56.people who say they want to do it. In terms of controls, I mean it may
:45:56. > :46:00.be that certain controls, it may be - there are various debates about
:46:00. > :46:03.legal whether things should be imposed legally and so on. A much
:46:03. > :46:11.better thing would be to encourage people to think postively about
:46:11. > :46:16.doing other things, frankly, instead of spend - sitting in front of T V
:46:16. > :46:23.scenes - The most important thing is that we tackle the education. We
:46:23. > :46:26.have to compare yourselves. It's not a utopia, look at our closest
:46:26. > :46:29.countries, the Netherlands being a good example, it's not perfect
:46:29. > :46:35.there, young people there find it easier to talk to their parents and
:46:35. > :46:40.teachers about sex from an early age. This have lower rates of STIs