:00:09. > :00:15.Is it possible that Russia has offered Syria and the United States
:00:15. > :00:18.a way out of confrontation. The idea is that the country's chemical
:00:18. > :00:27.weapons be put under international control. No-one has yet ruled it
:00:27. > :00:30.out entirely, even as the White House tries to gather political
:00:30. > :00:34.support for an attack. Congress is certainly interested in
:00:34. > :00:39.the new plan, but will it get them off the hook of having to vote for
:00:39. > :00:43.strikes? What he thought was a little lie
:00:43. > :00:48.led to a bigger lie and then a bigger one still, and finally they
:00:48. > :00:51.sent him to prison. We talk to Chris Huhne about whether he really
:00:51. > :00:59.of the victim of a conspiracy by Brodie Murdoch. -- Rupert Murdoch.
:00:59. > :01:04.We asked the last chairman of the BBC Governor, Michael Grade when
:01:04. > :01:11.the rot set in among the managers. Then this: Hello it is Alex here
:01:11. > :01:16.from the Artic Monkeys. Steven Smith and I will be discussing our
:01:16. > :01:28.hot new long player this evening on Newsnight, do tune in. The door
:01:28. > :01:32.seemed to open a chink today when the Syrian Foreign Minister
:01:32. > :01:36.appeared to welcome a Russian suggestion that they put their
:01:36. > :01:39.chemical weapons under international control. If that were
:01:39. > :01:43.to happen they would be going part of the way to meeting the request
:01:43. > :01:47.that the UN Secretary-General made. In the meantime the American
:01:47. > :01:51.President continues his attempts to persuade Congress to endorse his
:01:51. > :01:56.plans for some sort of strike on Syria. Mark Urban is in Washington
:01:56. > :02:04.for us. Act now, stop Assad now.
:02:04. > :02:05.This will be a week of ferment and argument here as the debate over
:02:05. > :02:12.striking Syria moves to a vote on argument here as the debate over
:02:12. > :02:19.Capitol Hill. There were rival demonstrations
:02:19. > :02:21.today by Syrian ex -pats, and an intervention by President Bashar
:02:21. > :02:28.Al-Assad himself. Addressing Congress in its own language,
:02:28. > :02:33.knowing its reluctance to back bombing. If you strike somewhere
:02:33. > :02:37.you have to expect reprecussion cushions somewhere else in
:02:37. > :02:42.different forms -- reprecussions somewhere else in different forms.
:02:42. > :02:44.You saying there will be strikes against the United States from your
:02:44. > :02:46.You saying there will be strikes friends by Iran and Hezbollah? As I
:02:46. > :02:50.You saying there will be strikes said it may take different forms.
:02:50. > :02:54.But not for the first time in this crisis some thinking aloud by the
:02:54. > :03:00.US Secretary of State grabbed people's attention. He could turn
:03:00. > :03:02.over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the
:03:02. > :03:09.international community next week, turn it over, all of it. Without
:03:09. > :03:16.delay. To allow a full and total accounting for that, but he isn't
:03:16. > :03:18.about do it, and it can't be done. But this time the consequence of
:03:18. > :03:22.some off the cuff speaking proved But this time the consequence of
:03:22. > :03:29.more remarkable. For the Russian Foreign Minister saw in it a chance
:03:29. > :03:35.to create a diplomatic opening. TRANSLATION: We don't know if Syria
:03:35. > :03:38.will agree to this, but if the establishment ment give
:03:38. > :03:40.international control of chemical weapons in that country would avoid
:03:40. > :03:44.strikes we will work with Damascus weapons in that country would avoid
:03:44. > :03:49.and appeal to the Syrian Government, not only to agree to place the
:03:49. > :03:53.sites where chemical weapons are stored under international control,
:03:53. > :03:56.but also to be them to be subsequently destroyed. And the
:03:56. > :04:02.international quad Rhyl took a further step when Syria's Foreign
:04:02. > :04:05.Minister said his country agreed to such plan. Is it viable? The policy
:04:05. > :04:09.Minister said his country agreed to gurus in Washington are hardly
:04:09. > :04:13.breaking out the champagne. The issue is whether, given the current
:04:13. > :04:17.environment, it is practical to assume that any proposal like this
:04:17. > :04:21.can actually be implemented, or whether what you will get is some
:04:21. > :04:26.chemical stock being turned over, others being unaccounted for,
:04:26. > :04:32.others being "mysteriously" disappeared.
:04:32. > :04:37.Today's developments on chemical weapons are reverberating on
:04:37. > :04:42.Capitol Hill, where Assenate vote was expected as soon as Wednesday.
:04:42. > :04:47.Where many now may be questioning, what exactly should they be voting
:04:47. > :04:53.on? Our diplomatic editor joins us now from Capitol Hill. So Mark,
:04:53. > :04:56.what do you reckon to the chances of thisenishive resolving the --
:04:57. > :05:00.this initiative resolving the crisis? President Obama is going to
:05:00. > :05:04.come here tomorrow in an attempt to lobby senators, as it stands about
:05:04. > :05:09.a third of the the Senate is undecided. Some suggests the
:05:09. > :05:13.numbers were getting worse for him even before today's initiative, and
:05:13. > :05:17.this is certainly not going to make his job any easier. They have been
:05:17. > :05:24.reacting already to what they have heard today from Sergey Lavrov and
:05:24. > :05:27.the others, for example, Senor Diane Finstein of California, who
:05:27. > :05:31.last week came out of the White House endorsing the President's
:05:31. > :05:35.plan, today says no, no, this is worthy of is serious study. Hillary
:05:35. > :05:41.Clinton too has responded in what one might call a not unhelpful way,
:05:41. > :05:45.suggesting there might be something in it. So the immediate effect of
:05:45. > :05:50.this is to complicate the plan. But the Senate leadership still
:05:50. > :05:54.anticipates moving a vote on the original resolution, the strikes
:05:54. > :05:58.res lug, if you like, -- resolution, if you like, even if others have
:05:58. > :06:01.ideas about putting this new plan to the rest in the Senate are also
:06:01. > :06:06.ideas about putting this new plan floating around.
:06:06. > :06:11.What is the calculation there, if Congress were to vote against
:06:11. > :06:16.strikes, would it then be possible or impossible for the President to
:06:16. > :06:20.launch them? You know, a lot of people have looked at this scenario
:06:20. > :06:24.where he does manage to persuade the Senate, but not the House of
:06:24. > :06:28.Representatives, which is is much more sceptical, based on the
:06:28. > :06:31.currentalies. The White House has intimated it would still go ahead,
:06:31. > :06:37.I'm not sure how credible that is. I think in terms of the reception
:06:37. > :06:40.of this chemical weapons plan, that was mooted today, it is quite
:06:40. > :06:44.interesting to look at the way the White House has handled this, they
:06:44. > :06:48.have been sceptical, but they have not been dismissive. So they are
:06:48. > :06:53.planning a twin-track approach in which they continue to move towards
:06:53. > :06:57.the strikes resolutions in the Senate and House saying that it is
:06:57. > :07:00.only pressure that has got us to this point. They are also saying
:07:00. > :07:03.that they will explore this idea. I think there are two important
:07:03. > :07:08.realities that cause them not to be dismissive. The first is, as we
:07:09. > :07:12.well know, the President has never wanted to intervene in Syria
:07:12. > :07:17.militarily, and if this could get him off the hook, I think it could
:07:17. > :07:21.be extremely useful. If it could in any way be made practicable and
:07:21. > :07:24.workable. The second is, I think the foreign policy establishment
:07:24. > :07:27.here, the intelligence establishment, while they are
:07:27. > :07:31.suspicious of trickery as they would see it on the part of is iria
:07:31. > :07:35.and Russia, they do acknowledge that countries like Russia and even
:07:35. > :07:40.Iran have deep-seated concerns about what would happen to Syria's
:07:40. > :07:45.chemical weapons if the Government fall, for example if militant
:07:45. > :07:51.Jihadists obtained them, for that reason these proposals may well be
:07:51. > :08:05.in ernest. Coming up the Artic Monkeys.
:08:05. > :08:09.Rupert Murdoch, the man who claimed to have had the humblist day of his
:08:09. > :08:12.life when he appeared before parliament was responsible for
:08:12. > :08:17.ending the political career of one of the stars of the current
:08:17. > :08:22.Government, that, at least, of the game the Guardian made for Chris
:08:22. > :08:25.Huhne who went to jail for perverting the course of justice
:08:25. > :08:31.earlier this year. As a good time girl in an earlier scandal put it,
:08:31. > :08:33."he would, wouldn't he"? Huhne's party leader and Deputy Prime
:08:33. > :08:37.Minister seemed to take much the same view when asked if he thought
:08:37. > :08:43.the same? I will be talking to Chris Huhne in a moment or two.
:08:43. > :08:47.First a recap on this sorry tale. It all started after their marriage
:08:47. > :08:54.broke down. Vicky Pryce, being told of her husband's affair with his
:08:54. > :09:00.aide plotted revenge. She decided to tell the Sunday Times journalist,
:09:00. > :09:03.Isabelle Oakshott of an occasion when she took speeding points for
:09:03. > :09:10.her husband. He was later charged with perverting the course of
:09:10. > :09:13.justice, an accusation he denied. These allegations are certainly
:09:13. > :09:17.incorrect. They have been made before and they have shown to be
:09:17. > :09:22.untrue. And I very much welcome the referral to the police as it will
:09:22. > :09:28.draw a lion under the matter. But after the trial began he made a
:09:28. > :09:31.spectacular U-turn. I have pleaded guilty today. I am unable to say
:09:31. > :09:36.spectacular U-turn. I have pleaded more while there is an outstanding
:09:36. > :09:40.trial. But having taken responsibility for something which
:09:40. > :09:45.happened ten years ago the only proper course of action for me is
:09:45. > :09:51.now to resign my Eastleigh seat in parliament, which I will do very
:09:51. > :09:55.shortly. It sealed the fate of his political career, and his freedom
:09:55. > :09:59.for a time, he served two months of an eight-month sentence. Today he
:09:59. > :10:02.published a series of accusations in the Guardian Newspaper, saying
:10:02. > :10:18.that: He cited his personal hostility to
:10:18. > :10:23.Rupert Murdoch as a motive for rough treatment. He said that the
:10:23. > :10:28.Sunday Times had groomed his ex- wife until she told them about the
:10:28. > :10:32.speeding points, and that the Crown Prosecution Service loves a
:10:32. > :10:36.celebrity trial. Chris Huhne is here now, what causes someone to
:10:36. > :10:42.lie as you did? Well the most important thing is to say that
:10:42. > :10:46.report did slightly skate over what was in the article when I said very
:10:46. > :10:50.clearly that none of what transpired would have happened if I
:10:50. > :10:53.hadn't made a mistake and if I, I have always taken responsibility
:10:53. > :10:55.for that. And indeed the night of my sentencing I said that I was
:10:55. > :11:00.sorry for that. That's not what I'm my sentencing I said that I was
:11:00. > :11:09.asking, what causes to you lie like that? The key thing is back when it
:11:09. > :11:14.happened, I in 2003 I like others thought it was a minor matter,
:11:14. > :11:19.because the AA found 300,000 people had done it. You kept on lying?I
:11:19. > :11:24.didn't, I wasn't accused of anything until 2011. Then you lied
:11:24. > :11:29.didn't you? In 2011 what happened was that I was first accused of
:11:29. > :11:35.swapping points with a member of my constituency staff, which was
:11:35. > :11:39.untrue. Then I did lie about it, and the lying was essentially that
:11:39. > :11:42.the consequences of what seemed to be a relatively minor matter a long
:11:42. > :11:46.the consequences of what seemed to time ago was so disproportionate,
:11:46. > :11:48.and I knew it was so disproportionate, that you say this
:11:48. > :11:52.is something that you are actually going to try and get out of. That
:11:52. > :11:59.is what I did, I shouldn't have done it t I should have confessed
:11:59. > :12:01.and said no. But I did, and that I apologise for. There is a
:12:01. > :12:03.difference between filling in a form and doing what you say you
:12:03. > :12:06.difference between filling in a have been told many, many other
:12:06. > :12:12.people have done in taking the points. And making a public
:12:12. > :12:19.declaration that you know to be untrue. What does that feel like? I
:12:19. > :12:24.think that the key point and what made me change my mind was getting
:12:24. > :12:29.into the prospect of court and having to lie under oath. That I
:12:29. > :12:35.wasn't prepared to do. So I wasn't prepared to perjure myself or
:12:35. > :12:39.prepared to go into court and have a tremendous battle with my ex-wife.
:12:39. > :12:42.But lying to the public and on camera wasn't a problem? The
:12:42. > :12:46.But lying to the public and on reality is I didn't look terribly
:12:46. > :12:51.happy doing that as you saw. What are we supposed to deduce from your
:12:51. > :12:56.face? The reality is I wasn't, it was something I regret. Did you
:12:56. > :13:00.ever happen to tell lies as a minister? No.This was an entirely
:13:00. > :13:03.novel experience? Well I wouldn't say that, I think that anybody who
:13:03. > :13:07.tells you that they have never told a lie is almost certainly lying.
:13:07. > :13:11.And I think that I wouldn't dream of putting you on the spot and ask
:13:11. > :13:18.you if you have ever told a lie. But the reality is that white lies,
:13:18. > :13:22.at least, small lies, do help social circumstances and avoid you
:13:22. > :13:30.hurting people's feelings and so forth, and the definition is
:13:30. > :13:32.something that is there. But that wasn't this particular case? That
:13:32. > :13:36.something that is there. But that is what I say, the only defence I
:13:36. > :13:39.can make for the behaviour then is essentially this was something that
:13:39. > :13:43.would have such enormous consequences for my family, for me,
:13:43. > :13:48.my career and everything else, that actually given that it was afterall
:13:48. > :13:58.not impairing national defence, it was not perinjureing yourself in a
:13:58. > :14:04.court, it was actually about sending St Petersburgering yourself
:14:04. > :14:10.in court it was actual -- perjuing yourself in court. When I did plead
:14:10. > :14:26.guilty I resigned my place in parliament. You go on to talk about
:14:26. > :14:31.Rupert Murdoch having a vendetta, is there any evidence of that? I
:14:31. > :14:36.say maybe it is a coincidence, but I give circumstantial reasons for
:14:36. > :14:40.why it might not be. You say very strongly that you were a victim of
:14:40. > :14:45.the Murdoch press? One of the reasons that makes me think it
:14:45. > :14:50.might be the case was something out on Newsnight some time back, you
:14:50. > :14:58.interviewed the former police officer put on to trailing me and
:14:58. > :15:03.my partner and he was also, by the way, put on to trailing lawyers in
:15:03. > :15:05.the case who were representing claimants against News
:15:05. > :15:10.International. Now that's not something that had any public
:15:10. > :15:15.interest, it was purely an issue of News International defending its
:15:15. > :15:20.patch. And I think that when it was confronted as it was, with an mabs
:15:20. > :15:25.luetly monstrous set of accusations that had a dramatic effect on -- an
:15:25. > :15:30.absolutely Monday trous set of accusations that had a dramatic
:15:30. > :15:33.affect on the share price, and Murdoch had to split the paper.
:15:33. > :15:38.They were desperate to close it down as much as possible, I believe
:15:38. > :15:46.that the fact that the News of the World put a very substantial effort
:15:46. > :15:50.into retaining me, it was a retired police officer, that was expensive,
:15:50. > :15:59.I guessed there was something going on. You used the verb "groomed",
:15:59. > :16:03.you say the Sunday Times groomed your ex-wife? Why that word? There
:16:03. > :16:08.were two accept soweds going on, the big investment by the news --
:16:08. > :16:11.two episodeed going on, the big investment by the News of the World,
:16:12. > :16:19.and then they don't use it until I get into the cabinet, even though
:16:19. > :16:25.they have it. The second thing is when the Sunday Times works at it,
:16:25. > :16:30.grooming is not an unfair...It Is a very loaded word to use? It is not
:16:30. > :16:34.an unfair word to use, they were made public in the trial. The e-
:16:34. > :16:38.mail exchanges and the voicemail exchanges between the journalist
:16:38. > :16:44.involved and my ex-wife, I think it is a fair ago jective. You can --
:16:44. > :16:48.adjective, you can judge that for yourself. You went to prison, how
:16:48. > :16:55.was that? It was extremely gruelling, whatever one says about
:16:55. > :16:58.it. The Sun likes to refer to open prisons as the Savoy of slammers,
:16:58. > :17:02.the reality is you lose your prisons as the Savoy of slammers,
:17:02. > :17:06.freedom and it is an enormous punishment, there is no doubt about
:17:06. > :17:10.that whatsoever. How did you pass the time? Well different ways, but
:17:10. > :17:13.one of the which I always try to do in any circumstance is to be as
:17:13. > :17:16.active as possible. But of course in an open prison, one of the
:17:16. > :17:21.things that people forget is the whole point of open prisons is they
:17:21. > :17:26.are actually at the end of long sentences for people who have
:17:26. > :17:30.committed murder and so forth. And people working in prisons, you are
:17:30. > :17:34.working 40 hours a week and you are quite tired. A lot of the old lags
:17:34. > :17:37.who have been in the prison systems where they don't have to work find
:17:37. > :17:43.it difficult there. What sort of work were you doing? I was working
:17:43. > :17:47.in DHL, which was a packing outfit, basically picking things like
:17:47. > :17:50.tobacco for other prisoners in 17 prisons and putting them in
:17:50. > :17:57.packages and sending them out. Did you read while you were there? I
:17:57. > :18:01.did. What did you read?I read some Balzac and Hillary Mantel, I
:18:01. > :18:08.thought that it was splendid that I had been a disgraced minister in
:18:08. > :18:11.the 21st century rather than a Tudor one, my head would have been
:18:12. > :18:16.on the spike in the Tower of London. A grand comparison to make. You
:18:16. > :18:20.think looking back on it, it was probably a good thing you didn't
:18:20. > :18:24.get the leadership for your party? Well, history has a curious
:18:24. > :18:29.business, there are all sorts of turning points. I mean as it
:18:29. > :18:31.happened I began the affair that I began after I had lost the
:18:31. > :18:37.leadership, so you know who knows. began after I had lost the
:18:38. > :18:41.It is all Nick Clegg's fault? I don't think it is anybody's fault
:18:41. > :18:45.except my own. All I was trying to do in the Guardian article, a
:18:45. > :18:50.running commentary on these things, to say this is a newspaper group
:18:50. > :18:54.which has enormous interests, and it is prepared to defend them very
:18:54. > :18:59.brutally on occasion. And you know, if somebody has a weakness it will
:18:59. > :19:04.go for it, that is fine. It was my own weakness that created the
:19:04. > :19:07.problems, and I entirely accept my responsibility. But don't
:19:07. > :19:09.underestimate the fact that here is a newspaper group which has
:19:09. > :19:14.underestimate the fact that here is enormous power, and every time it
:19:14. > :19:16.has more powerful, every time Rupert Murdoch has got another
:19:16. > :19:20.political concession from the Government of the day, it has
:19:20. > :19:24.become more difficult to resist. Coming back to you, is your
:19:24. > :19:30.political career over for good? Over. Forever?Yeah. The reality is
:19:30. > :19:38.you cannot conceivably run, in my view, having done what I have done.
:19:38. > :19:43.So my political career is over. Thank you. Now seven active and
:19:43. > :19:46.former BBC bigwigs entertained Thank you. Now seven active and
:19:46. > :19:52.Public Accounts Committee today by fighting like cats in a sack. If
:19:52. > :19:58.BBC journalists were as confused, blustering and fractious as the
:19:58. > :20:02.management of its organisation, it would have decomposed long ago. The
:20:02. > :20:05.less than magnificent seven were being cross-examined on who knew
:20:05. > :20:09.what and when about the large payments made to executives deemed
:20:09. > :20:18.surplus to requirements. Steve Hewlett, who left the BBC, without
:20:18. > :20:22.a massive pay-off, reports. Lights, camera action, at least
:20:22. > :20:24.that was the billing for today's BBC appearence at the Public
:20:24. > :20:30.Accounts Committee, actually it is their third on the subject of
:20:30. > :20:35.senior executive severence pay. But this performance, for one night
:20:35. > :20:40.only, as they say, was different. Why? Because of the cast. Top
:20:40. > :20:46.billing former Director General Mark Thompson, up against current
:20:46. > :20:52.Trust chairman, Lord Patten, trust director normally strictly
:20:53. > :20:56.background, Nicholas Kroll and Sir Michael Lyons, all playing lead
:20:56. > :21:00.roles. Welcome to the biggest show in town, this afternoon it is. So
:21:00. > :21:06.what I'm a sure will be reported in the rest of the press and media as
:21:06. > :21:11.the latest in a long line of BBC balls-ups. The biggest you hear is
:21:11. > :21:16.executive pay and executive pay- offs, nothing new in that. The plot
:21:16. > :21:20.for this hearing has taken an unexpectedly nasty twist. With
:21:20. > :21:25.allegations on all sides of corporate cover-up and conspiracy.
:21:25. > :21:28.First of up was Mark Thompson, who rejected any suggestion that he had
:21:28. > :21:40.misled or concealed information from the Trust previously about the
:21:40. > :21:43.details of the £949,000 pay-off to exdeputy Director General, Mark
:21:43. > :21:48.Byford. You do think the suggestion made that I and my colleagues had
:21:48. > :21:52.withheld important information about the Mark Byford and Sharon
:21:52. > :21:57.Bayley settlements, from the BBC Trust, that the Trust were kept in
:21:57. > :22:06.the dark and they would be "just as interested as you the PAC of why we
:22:06. > :22:10.didn't know" is untrue and unfair. Lord Patten rejected any suggestion
:22:10. > :22:15.he had known or could have done. True the National Audit Office had
:22:15. > :22:19.criticised the BBC for paying the executives more than they were
:22:19. > :22:24.contractually entitled to. He, Lord Patten, wasn't even there when the
:22:24. > :22:29.dirty deed was done. First of all, since the previous Trust didn't
:22:29. > :22:35.know that payments had been made outside contracts, why should I
:22:35. > :22:41.have known as a new Trust chairman. Is it really likely that the
:22:42. > :22:46.Director General would say to me, look, the previous Trust didn't
:22:46. > :22:53.know that these were paid outside contract, or paid in what I design
:22:53. > :22:58.as in contract though it is not the same as the NAO's view of what a
:22:58. > :23:02.contract is. Is it likely that I would have had briefing to tell me
:23:02. > :23:07.that. Axe sayings were traded and temp -- accusations were traded and
:23:07. > :23:10.tempers frayed. The show rolled on, MPs became more then a little
:23:10. > :23:15.exasperated. Less conspiracy MPs became more then a little
:23:15. > :23:22.perhaps, and chaos maybe? We can't find the most important document
:23:22. > :23:27.because it had a code name. It is the most Tsar game of Whack a Mole
:23:27. > :23:32.in my life. I can see you are telling me the truth as you can see
:23:32. > :23:37.it, but to the public it looks like somebody is lying. At best it is
:23:37. > :23:41.incompetence, at worst we may have seen people covering their backs by
:23:41. > :23:45.being less than open. Well, that's what Margaret Hodge, and I dare say
:23:45. > :23:50.most of her committee thought. How much wiser are we after today's
:23:50. > :23:54.performance. Did Thompson set out to hoodwink the Trust with his
:23:54. > :23:57.deals on executive severence, well, no. Did the Trust's original
:23:57. > :24:02.position that they knew absolutely nothing about any of this, no
:24:02. > :24:08.documents, no recollections, did that sustain? No. On the other hand,
:24:08. > :24:12.did they thorough approve in any direct way what Thompson did, that
:24:12. > :24:17.wasn't proved either. Perhaps more knock about than knockout. With one
:24:17. > :24:21.exception, everybody agreed the Trust is bust. Let's have a normal
:24:21. > :24:24.board, any other organisation, including media organisations,
:24:24. > :24:27.which is a cheerleader and champion for that organisation, but also has
:24:27. > :24:31.a responsibility to hold its executives to account. Let's have
:24:31. > :24:33.regulation done by somebody else. Would you expect regulation by
:24:33. > :24:36.regulation done by somebody else. someone else, let's say Ofcom, but
:24:36. > :24:42.whoever it is, to look at executive pay? No.And there's the problem,
:24:42. > :24:46.this isn't a regulatory conundrum at all, it is all about governance,
:24:46. > :24:49.on that front, if you didn't have something like the BBC Trust, with
:24:49. > :24:54.different rules maybe, you might just have to invent it. And that
:24:54. > :25:02.would be an issue no doubt as the BBC charter renewal moves centre
:25:02. > :25:08.stage between now and 2017. With us now is Lord Grade, the last chair
:25:08. > :25:12.of the PBC board of governors, which was replaced by the -- BBC
:25:12. > :25:17.bored of governor, which was replaced by the Trust. He hired
:25:17. > :25:24.Mark Thompson as Director General. This was a pretty awful spectacle
:25:24. > :25:33.today? It was unhe hadifying. -- unhe hadifying, what got --
:25:33. > :25:37.edifying, what got lost in the translation is the BBC overspent in
:25:37. > :25:41.an effort to save a great deal of money which was veryle valuable and
:25:41. > :25:46.needed to be done. They are going - - very valuable and needed to be
:25:46. > :25:51.done. They will save £30 million, but they overspent in getting there.
:25:51. > :25:54.What do you think went wrong, looking at those relationships
:25:54. > :25:58.there, and who knew what when and how it was run and the fag packet
:25:58. > :26:03.nature of some of the calculation and deals that were done. What went
:26:03. > :26:12.wrong in corporate culture? I think the BBC suffers more and more from
:26:12. > :26:19.a lack of understanding the value of money. A cheque comes in every
:26:19. > :26:23.April for £3.5 billion and if you don't have to earn the money, and
:26:23. > :26:27.you have got that quantity of money, it is very hard to keep a grip on
:26:27. > :26:30.you have got that quantity of money, reality of the value of money. If
:26:30. > :26:35.you run a business and you own the business you switch the light out
:26:35. > :26:38.at 6.00pm, everybody has gone, you walk around yourself, you own the
:26:38. > :26:43.business it is your and you have earned it the hard way. The culture
:26:43. > :26:48.of the BBC of late has been definitely a loss of a sense of the
:26:48. > :26:52.value of money. Let's turn now to the question of the Director
:26:52. > :26:58.General and the management structure. You hired Mark Thompson?
:26:58. > :27:03.He emerged from an open process. Of which you were in charge? Yes, I
:27:04. > :27:09.was chairman. Do you think you paid him too much? On reflection, yes, I
:27:09. > :27:14.benchmarked him since what he was earning at Channel 4, and he came
:27:14. > :27:22.to run the BBC, a much more complex and huge organisation. For less
:27:22. > :27:26.money than he was earning at Channel 4. On reflection maybe we
:27:26. > :27:33.paid him too much, or maybe we didn't bargain hard enough with him
:27:33. > :27:37.over his salary. Since that point, you know, salaries have escalated
:27:37. > :27:42.and escalated to the point where the old dictum that you worked for
:27:42. > :27:47.the BBC for a discount has gone. However, in the days when you
:27:47. > :27:53.worked, I took the biggest pay cut in history to work for the BBC. I
:27:53. > :28:00.was earning £500,000 in Hollywood, and I became the controller of the
:28:00. > :28:04.BBC for £28,000 a year and a parking space. You had an index-
:28:04. > :28:09.linked pension and job for life in those days. It is a very insecure
:28:09. > :28:11.life at the BBC today. The BBC in the last eight-to-ten years. It is
:28:11. > :28:15.life at the BBC today. The BBC in if you are down the food chain, but
:28:15. > :28:21.if you are one of these guys getting these enormous pay-offs it
:28:21. > :28:26.is not that uncomfortable? In the light of events certainly no. I can
:28:26. > :28:32.see Tony Hall, the new Director General, and Chris Patten himself,
:28:32. > :28:38.absolutely determined to reverse that process. The BBC has to learn
:28:38. > :28:43.the value of money. It is like being a very wealthy son of a rich
:28:43. > :28:46.family, you don't have to go to work you get an allowance every
:28:46. > :28:51.week, you don't learn the value of money. The BBC is in that position,
:28:51. > :29:00.cultural low it has lost thele value, they bought a business, a
:29:00. > :29:04.post production service. A year later they are selling it at a loss,
:29:04. > :29:12.we don't know why and what. There is no sense of the value of money.
:29:12. > :29:15.To be wealthy and inept is quite a dangerous combination? I don't
:29:15. > :29:20.think anybody has been inept. That sounds inept, you buy a business
:29:20. > :29:21.one year and sell it the next? I thought you were referring to the
:29:21. > :29:25.hearing this morning. There is no thought you were referring to the
:29:25. > :29:29.connection between that point and this question, which is, it is
:29:29. > :29:32.possible that Mark Byford is watching this. If you were him do
:29:32. > :29:36.you think he should, or would you return the money? That is a matter
:29:36. > :29:40.for him. What I would say about Mark Byford, if he had still been
:29:40. > :29:45.deputy Director General you wouldn't have had the McAlpine
:29:45. > :29:49.horkwhror and you wouldn't have had the -- horror or the Savile horror.
:29:49. > :29:54.So he was worth it? He was a great asset to the BBC and the BBC has
:29:54. > :29:58.suffered as a result of his department tour. What price you put
:29:58. > :30:02.on that -- departure. What price you put on that is a matter that is
:30:02. > :30:07.history now. Thank you very much. Thank you.
:30:07. > :30:11.The trades unions voted today for a mass programme of what they called
:30:11. > :30:15.civil and industrial action to protest at cut in public spending.
:30:15. > :30:20.Yes, it is that true sign that autumn is upon it, the annual TUC
:30:20. > :30:24.conference, being a story the Chancellor thinks they are mad and
:30:24. > :30:27.claimed today that his cuts are turning around the economy.
:30:27. > :30:33.Tomorrow the Labour leader will do his turn at the conference, and try
:30:33. > :30:42.toe later rest accusations that his recent comments on the unions -- to
:30:42. > :30:48.lay to rest that sack sayings that his recent -- -- Hundreds,
:30:48. > :30:51.thousands of union members here at the TUC, right now pretty much
:30:51. > :30:55.automatically they are signed up as Labour members of the but not in
:30:55. > :31:00.the future. If Ed Miliband has his way they will have to choose.
:31:00. > :31:06.Success for the Labour leader means less of this.
:31:06. > :31:09.This event, the TUC Congress has diminished in significance as the
:31:09. > :31:13.industrial muscle of trade unions has also decreased over the last
:31:13. > :31:16.few decades. This year it is different. It is a trial of
:31:16. > :31:25.political musclele. Ed Miliband versus the unions. After the Unite
:31:25. > :31:31.union was accused of vote rigging in the Falkirk selection, Ed
:31:31. > :31:35.Miliband promise the reform with union lipgs. Some warned it would
:31:35. > :31:42.be fewer members and less funding. Since then they have put it into
:31:42. > :31:49.action. The GMB and Unison have reduced funding. Unite is still on
:31:49. > :31:53.side with Labour. We have welcomed the proposals to engage in a new
:31:53. > :31:59.way and relationship and listen to what it means. Why are you so
:31:59. > :32:02.positive and they so negative? I don't think they are negative, they
:32:02. > :32:06.have responded in a particular fashion because of Ed's proposals.
:32:06. > :32:12.Hand on heart, Len McCluskey, can you say it has nothing to do with
:32:12. > :32:17.the fact that a few days ago your union was exonerated over damaging
:32:17. > :32:21.charges in Falkirk? In Falkirk we said from the outset that we had
:32:21. > :32:25.done nothing wrong. To you think Ed Miliband has displayed good
:32:25. > :32:29.leadership skills? I think since he has become leader. With this
:32:29. > :32:33.incident? To be the leader of the Labour Party is the most difficult
:32:33. > :32:37.job in politics. More than the Tories? Much more.More than
:32:37. > :32:39.your's? Much more difficult than mine. It is the most difficult job
:32:39. > :32:42.in politics and he has held the mine. It is the most difficult job
:32:42. > :32:46.party together. Why is it the most difficult job in politics? Because
:32:46. > :32:52.it is a broad church the Labour Party. Last year of Labour's £33
:32:52. > :32:59.million of income, £8 million would be in jeopardy. From this pot the
:32:59. > :33:07.JMB has withdrawn £1.05 million, and Unison, much less, £2 10,000.
:33:07. > :33:12.Is it a negotiating position. Will unions fold, even if he stands firm.
:33:12. > :33:15.You will give the money back in another form in the next election?
:33:15. > :33:18.That may be the casek we have to justify that in terms it of
:33:18. > :33:22.policies and have a clear definition of employment rights,
:33:22. > :33:27.bedroom tax, tax avoidance, offshoring, there is lots of things.
:33:27. > :33:31.It needs clear distinct policies that is going to chime with the
:33:31. > :33:33.electorate, that at the moment does not seem to be coming through. Do
:33:33. > :33:38.electorate, that at the moment does you think he's mature? I think he's
:33:38. > :33:39.maturing very fast. We have Ed Miliband coming tomorrow, how do
:33:39. > :33:46.maturing very fast. We have Ed you think he has been treating the
:33:46. > :33:51.unions recent low? Appallingly. Very badly. What can he do to make
:33:51. > :33:55.up for it? Retract some of the things he has said. If he doesn't?
:33:55. > :33:59.That is a decision for the whole of Congress. Ed Miliband has dug
:33:59. > :34:03.himself a great big hole. Most of the people at this conference are
:34:03. > :34:06.probably going to find it very difficult to believe anything he
:34:06. > :34:09.says. It is not just disgruntled union members, some of whom are
:34:09. > :34:13.working down below. It is also pressure on the Labour leader, from
:34:13. > :34:19.the right of the party. Those people who think he didn't say or
:34:19. > :34:24.do enough over the summer. That's not hugely fair, is it, to be
:34:24. > :34:28.criticised on the one hand for being too decisive over Labour's
:34:28. > :34:32.link with the unions, and on the other to be criticised for being
:34:32. > :34:36.too indecisive, forenot coming up with enough ideas, that is politics
:34:36. > :34:40.for you. Shadow Cabinet member and Ed Miliband's allies alike tell me
:34:40. > :34:50.that they believe, right now, his leadership is in a bad place.
:34:50. > :34:54.An economic recovery for a few not the many is Ed Miliband's attack on
:34:54. > :34:59.the Government. He brings a gift to the TUC tomorrow, he will ban the
:34:59. > :35:03.zero hour contracts. Rumbling away in the background is a fear, that
:35:03. > :35:07.Labour donations in years to come may also now be from the few and
:35:07. > :35:12.not the many. Our political editor is still in
:35:12. > :35:18.Bournemouth, where the TUC are meeting. What will he say tomorrow,
:35:18. > :35:25.Ed Miliband? That the leader is not for turning. That these reforms
:35:25. > :35:29.that may see him bring in fewer, lower resources for funding the
:35:29. > :35:33.Labour Party, he's pushing ahead with it. Siren voices are saying it
:35:33. > :35:37.is an incredibly baded idea. What we know about his speech tomorrow
:35:37. > :35:42.is he will say this could be God for the Labour Party everybody. We
:35:42. > :35:48.currently have 200,000 members, with my reforms we could go up to
:35:49. > :35:52.500,000. The anoracks will no that is more than any other party put
:35:52. > :35:56.together. It is an extraordinary amount. For this bold statement he
:35:56. > :36:02.will probably be boed, as you saw in our package, that was just a
:36:02. > :36:05.handful, many, many more were critical of him tomorrow. The
:36:05. > :36:09.reception will not be warm. That will be a problem that reflects
:36:09. > :36:15.concern in the Labour Party, but also in the highest echelons of the
:36:15. > :36:18.Labour Party. A forethat Ed Miliband's team didn't think it --
:36:18. > :36:22.a fear that Ed Miliband's team didn't think it through further. If
:36:22. > :36:26.you don't bring in the union members and bring on side the union
:36:26. > :36:30.leaders, a cash-strapped Labour Party becomes even more cash-
:36:30. > :36:36.strapped, just before a general election. Thank you very much. To
:36:36. > :36:40.discuss all this I'm joined by the Shadow Chief Secretary to the
:36:40. > :36:43.Treasury. How close is the Labour Party to
:36:43. > :36:46.the TUC. When you look at something like the TUC's resolution today
:36:46. > :36:51.about a day of action in November, like the TUC's resolution today
:36:51. > :36:54.strikes and civil disobedience, do you support that? We don't want to
:36:54. > :36:58.see industrial action, I don't think it is the right course of
:36:58. > :37:02.action. So you don't support it? What about the end to the cap on
:37:02. > :37:07.public sector pay, do you support that? What we have said on public
:37:07. > :37:10.sector pay is the 1% restraint needs to continue because the mess
:37:10. > :37:14.George Osborne has made of the economy. We would use the 1% and
:37:14. > :37:18.gear it toward the lowest pay workers. People on higher pay in
:37:18. > :37:23.the public sector would have pay frozen. But people at the lower end,
:37:23. > :37:28.like we do with the living age would get more than 1%. The other
:37:28. > :37:32.thing they decided of the end to zero hours contracts? Ed will talk
:37:32. > :37:36.about that in the speech tomorrow. We have said that we think threeth
:37:36. > :37:40.three things should happen. First of all people who are on zero hour
:37:40. > :37:44.contracts shouldn't have to work exclusive low for that company, as
:37:44. > :37:47.is the case in many contracts. They shouldn't have to be available at
:37:47. > :37:53.any time if they are not guaranteed work. If they are consistently
:37:53. > :38:01.doing a certain number of hours, Ed will speak about that tomorrow. You
:38:01. > :38:06.are not saying end all zero hours contracts? I'm not sure many trade
:38:06. > :38:13.unions members would want them ended across the board. It will
:38:13. > :38:17.transform how the contracts are woarked. Potentionally millions are
:38:17. > :38:20.on. Do you know how many are?We have asked the Office for National
:38:20. > :38:24.Statistics to publish the data, they don't do at the moment. How
:38:24. > :38:27.many do you think could legitimately be on zero hours
:38:27. > :38:30.contracts? We don't he know the situation at the moment. You don't
:38:30. > :38:35.know much about zero hours interest rates? We have had asked the ONS to
:38:35. > :38:39.publish the data, we hope they do. The Government are tacking no
:38:39. > :38:42.action to change the use of them. The three reforms spoken about will
:38:42. > :38:46.reduce that insecurity. That is the key thing here. People who are on
:38:46. > :38:50.zero hours contracts they don't know whether they will be able to
:38:50. > :38:54.pay the rent and bills next month. Or the month after that. If they
:38:54. > :38:58.can have some security for people who are consist continually doing a
:38:58. > :39:01.certain number of hours, if that can be reflected in their contracts,
:39:01. > :39:06.those sorts of things will help them plan for the future. Your
:39:06. > :39:13.party voted to ban zero hours contracts in 1995. You then had 13
:39:13. > :39:18.years in Government where you didn't do it? We have seen a big
:39:18. > :39:22.growth in zero hours contracts. The numbers announced it might be as
:39:22. > :39:27.many as 5.5 million. You said that although you don't know. You don't
:39:27. > :39:34.know how many there should be? If the data isn't published I can't
:39:35. > :39:38.and nobody can. You rejected in principle? For some students they
:39:38. > :39:41.want the flexibility. What we are hearing is more and more people
:39:41. > :39:45.saying that they are being abused by employers, who are keeping
:39:45. > :39:49.people on zero hours contracts, who are saying they have to be
:39:49. > :39:51.available at any time, and yet they can't guarantee them work. People
:39:51. > :39:54.available at any time, and yet they on zero hours contracts can't get a
:39:54. > :39:56.mortgage or rent properties on zero hours contracts can't get a
:39:56. > :40:02.they don't have the security of income. That abuse has to end. That
:40:02. > :40:05.is what Ed will talk about. Let's look at the question of the
:40:05. > :40:09.managment of the economy, if people won't trust you to run the economy
:40:09. > :40:12.when things are going really badly, once things start improving a
:40:12. > :40:14.little bit, as they may be at present. Why should they trust you
:40:14. > :40:19.little bit, as they may be at any more? I think it is about what
:40:19. > :40:23.the parties have to offer for the future. We are talking about what I
:40:23. > :40:32.think are the issues that really matter to people, so for example
:40:32. > :40:37.zero hours contract, and minimum wage, the starting 10p rate of tax
:40:37. > :40:40.funded by a tax on property worth more than £2 million. A job
:40:40. > :40:45.guaranteed for young people out of work for more than a year. Those
:40:45. > :40:48.are the sorts of things I know in my constituency would make a huge
:40:48. > :40:52.difference to people's lives, those are the sorts of things we are
:40:52. > :40:56.going to be promising in our manifesto in 2015. The policies
:40:56. > :40:59.will make a real difference to people's lives. George Osborne says
:41:00. > :41:03.that the economy is growing, it is all doing very well. It is
:41:03. > :41:07.incredibly out-of-touch, when for most people things are getting
:41:07. > :41:12.harder not easier, the living standards are falling and the cost
:41:12. > :41:17.of living going open. They pr formed at the Opening Ceremony for
:41:17. > :41:24.the London Olympics, they have headlined at Glasgow and five
:41:24. > :41:31.successful studio albums. The Artic Monkeys jouorny has been un--
:41:31. > :41:36.journey has been unstoppable. Their latest offering is out today.
:41:36. > :41:42.Stephen Smith looks at the band and he has never been accused of not
:41:42. > :41:50.looking good on the dance floor. # To Newsnight oh yeah
:41:50. > :41:55.Did he just say "Newsnight" # The Newsnight oh yeah
:41:56. > :42:01.He did, deal with that Grimmy, get your own, inclusive Ken Bruce.
:42:01. > :42:06.This is a customised version of one of the new tracks debuted by the
:42:06. > :42:11.Artic Monkeys at the Roundhouse in London earlier this evening. Their
:42:11. > :42:17.Artic Monkeys at the Roundhouse in fifth album is released today. # My
:42:17. > :42:21.best days # Is when the sunset gets a chill
:42:21. > :42:26.Shall we make a start. How do you feel about that. Commit to
:42:26. > :42:32.celluloid. The main creative force, Alex Turner, told us about their
:42:32. > :42:38.slightly new direction. So what are we saying, hip hop has always been
:42:38. > :42:41.an influence yeah on the lyrics, but I think it is perhaps a bit
:42:41. > :42:45.more, we have worn that influence on our sleeve a bit more on this
:42:45. > :42:53.record. I suppose it is only subject low borrowing some elements
:42:53. > :42:57.from that world -- subtlely borrowing some elements from that
:42:57. > :43:01.world. # I'm not finished
:43:01. > :43:06.# You're not by my side There is no rapping in there? Not
:43:06. > :43:11.yet. Well what about live, maybe you would want to spit your truth,
:43:11. > :43:18.or bust some verse or whatever the phrase is? What is the phrase?I'm
:43:18. > :43:30.not quite sure. I spit nothing but the truth claim. That is --!That
:43:30. > :43:37.is the truth. I'm the same.It felt like we were about to step out into
:43:37. > :43:43.the lunar surface or something. # I bet you look good on the dance
:43:43. > :43:50.Quite a big booking, an Opening Ceremony of the London Olympics
:43:50. > :43:55.. The six minutes we were on stage
:43:55. > :44:00.came after like a two-month build- up or something, so many rehearsals,
:44:00. > :44:12.we spent quite a lot of time in that stadium that week just
:44:12. > :44:15.fretting, I suppose. I think it was definitely a big moment for us,
:44:15. > :44:22.suddenly we were something else then. Like it wasn't the way our
:44:22. > :44:26.fans even or people perhaps perceived us, maybe that changed. I
:44:26. > :44:32.try not to get caught up in that too much.
:44:32. > :44:37.# Crawling back to you # Never thought I would
:44:37. > :44:41.The Artic Monkeys got their break by sharing their songs over the
:44:41. > :44:49.Internet. But Alex Turner secretly learns for a whorey version of the
:44:49. > :44:54.rock 'n' roll MO. Are you sorry that the old model is broken a bit,
:44:54. > :44:59.that it is difficult to get platinum albums and like the Eagles
:44:59. > :45:05.or whoever? Sometimes you wish it was just the 70s where you could
:45:05. > :45:11.have you know playing in a beer belly and it was all right. You
:45:11. > :45:20.know what I mean. But now you have got to go to the gym and stuff.
:45:20. > :45:27.So that makes Turner an enemy of the buff and bland X Factor then?
:45:27. > :45:35.Not necessarily. People get too hung up on kind of, or get too
:45:35. > :45:39.angry about the whole X Factor and talent shows. Because you almost
:45:39. > :45:47.just let them get on with it. You need that to kick against, I think.
:45:47. > :45:52.If you are going to you know, it is yeah. People talk about how that
:45:52. > :45:57.has ruined everything. There has always been shitty pop music.
:45:57. > :46:08.Whether it came from a television show or not.
:46:08. > :46:14.# Let's hear you The conquerers of Glastonbury now
:46:14. > :46:18.reside in Los Angeles. Though Alex Turner maintains Sheffield will
:46:18. > :46:23.always be home. Is it true you still take your laundry home to
:46:23. > :46:28.your mum? I did do some laundry at home last week when I played for a
:46:28. > :46:35.couple of days. I did get that treatment, actually, you know. And
:46:35. > :46:40.what about ...They Always go the extra mile the mums, do you want me
:46:40. > :46:46.to do it by hand. Put the Comfort in, other softeners are available.
:46:46. > :46:49.Soak it, this is looking a bit too off-white, shall we do something
:46:49. > :46:54.about that. We should interview his mum next
:46:54. > :46:57.week, before we go news that in Washington President Obama has
:46:57. > :47:03.described the Russian proposal for Syria to put all chemical weapons
:47:03. > :47:06.under international control as "potentially positive" he has said
:47:06. > :47:14.he will take it seriously. That is it for now. The world of wrestling
:47:14. > :47:19.has celebrated its return as an Olympic sport. The ancient Greeks
:47:19. > :47:23.had it as "it" Olympic sport. In this country we are still getting
:47:23. > :47:27.over seeing men at the peak of their condition giving it their all.
:47:27. > :47:32.This is not what the IOC has in mind, apparently.