:00:16. > :00:27.Hairy Biker on hand to turn it into something
:00:27. > :01:11.Hairy Biker on hand to turn it into the finest greenhouse, the reason
:01:11. > :01:12.Hairy Biker on hand to turn it into party unless they. Start The source
:01:12. > :04:20.Hairy Biker on hand to turn it into of the emotion in this
:04:21. > :04:27.They hate him for it. I will be talking to Damian McBride in the
:04:27. > :04:34.moment. First, here are his thoughts. I came to my first party
:04:34. > :04:38.conference eight years ago. It was like a raucous wedding weekend.
:04:38. > :04:44.Hundreds of friends gathered in the same place. A few memorable
:04:44. > :04:48.speeches, the odd heated argument and far too much alcohol consumed.
:04:48. > :04:56.Times have changed. In the Blair and Brown years, there was something
:04:57. > :05:01.else. The battle for the leadership and control of the party. It will
:05:01. > :05:05.sometimes brutal, and I played my own part in it. What lessons do they
:05:06. > :05:11.need to learn? Our Ed Miliband and Ed Balls the right people to lead
:05:11. > :05:16.them in that? They came to work for Labour in the wake of an election
:05:16. > :05:20.defeat in 1992. Much of the blame was level that John Smith's shadow
:05:20. > :05:26.budget. It made it too easy for the Tories to define who would lose out
:05:26. > :05:29.if Labour came to power. But Ed Miliband and Ed Balls know they will
:05:29. > :05:33.need to give the same level of detail in 2015 if their promises on
:05:33. > :05:38.tax, spending and the deficit are going to have credibility. So, how
:05:38. > :05:42.do they avoid the Smith mistake? As veterans of Gordon Brown's budgets,
:05:42. > :05:59.they know the potential pitfalls. The fine detail could be crucial.
:05:59. > :06:02.that Ed Balls and others need to learn lessons from previous
:06:02. > :06:05.elections. I will not be calling an election, let me explain why. That
:06:05. > :06:09.elections. I will not be calling an terrible day Gordon told us he had
:06:09. > :06:15.decided to call off the election, it felt like a catastrophic loss of
:06:15. > :06:20.never, his Premiership never recovered. Miliband and Balls face
:06:20. > :06:23.the same test as the polls narrow and the economy turns. There is
:06:23. > :06:27.pressure to change tack on issues like the economy and welfare. The
:06:27. > :06:32.lesson of October 2007 is when political leaders wobble in the
:06:32. > :06:36.wind it can do huge damage to their reputation, Miliband and Balls must
:06:36. > :06:41.hold their nerve. Most of all they need to stay united, it is widely
:06:41. > :06:45.accepted that the feuding of the Blair-Brown years, in which I
:06:46. > :06:49.played a large part, was hugely distructive for the Labour
:06:49. > :06:54.Government. Many think I'm a traitor because I published a book
:06:54. > :06:58.lifting the lid on that feuding, especially at the party conference.
:06:58. > :07:06.I think if Labour is going to stop repeegt its past, it needs to
:07:06. > :07:10.exorsise its demons. Any repeat of the Blair-Brown feud will be fatal
:07:10. > :07:16.for Labour's election chances, if anything I hope pwhie book will act
:07:16. > :07:21.as a sobering -- my book will act as a sobering thought. It helped
:07:21. > :07:27.Miliband and Balls had ring side seats for the Blair Brown hoplts,
:07:27. > :07:31.and they can -- moments. Crucially they have something that Blair and
:07:31. > :07:38.Brown lacked, clarity about who is in charge, Balls accepts he's the
:07:38. > :07:42.junior partner. By the time they get to the next election Balls and
:07:42. > :07:45.Miliband will have worked for 20 years at the heart of the
:07:45. > :07:54.Government, they know enough about the past to avoid its mistake, if
:07:54. > :07:59.anything can do it is them. Damian McBride is here, Ed Balls called
:07:59. > :08:04.what you did today despicable, what do you think of that adjective? I
:08:04. > :08:09.agree with him. The extracts that have appeared in the Daily Mail.
:08:09. > :08:12.You describe those yourself? I describe myself in far worse terms
:08:12. > :08:17.than anyone has in the conference so far in that book. This is a
:08:17. > :08:21.confessional is it? It is me saying this is how I behaved, it is not
:08:22. > :08:28.all of what I did in that job, but that was maybe five attempts and
:08:28. > :08:31.skullduggery. You made it clear in that piece of tape that you would
:08:31. > :08:35.like to see Labour return to Government, is that correct? I'm
:08:35. > :08:39.still a Labour supporter. Can you tell us precisely how it helps the
:08:39. > :08:42.Labour Party to serialise your memoirs in the Daily Mail on the
:08:42. > :08:46.eve of conference? It doesn't help, Jeremy. But there is no good time
:08:46. > :08:51.to publish a book like this. There is a bad time and you have chosen
:08:51. > :08:55.it deliberately? I was offered a much more lucrative contract to
:08:55. > :08:59.publish this book in April 2015, I was told whatever I was offered by
:08:59. > :09:03.anyone else I could double it to publish in April 2015 to do maximum
:09:03. > :09:07.damage to the Labour Party. I chose not to do it, I wanted to publish a
:09:07. > :09:11.book at some stage and I thought better to do it now as long as
:09:11. > :09:14.possible before the general election. How many pieces of silver
:09:14. > :09:20.did you get for this one? I have been well paid for. Over £100,000?
:09:20. > :09:25.Yes, and after the publisher and the tax man keep their's I will do
:09:25. > :09:30.well out of this book. You say Gordon Brown wasn't in on the
:09:30. > :09:34.intricacies of what you were doing when you were rubbishing the
:09:34. > :09:38.members of the cabinet and the like. There was some sort of
:09:38. > :09:42.understanding between the two of you. What did he think you were
:09:42. > :09:47.doing? I don't think he knew what I was doing most of the time, I
:09:47. > :09:51.operated in the shadows and in pubs with different journalists and
:09:51. > :09:55.doing that kind of operation. What Gordon knew he got from me was
:09:55. > :09:58.media intelligence that was unparalleled and access to
:09:58. > :10:01.different bits of the media other politicians couldn't reach, and
:10:01. > :10:04.frankly, he never asked the question how do you pull this off.
:10:04. > :10:08.He just assumed this was based on my personal relationships with
:10:08. > :10:13.journalists. Where did he think all the Tories in the newspapers came
:10:13. > :10:17.from? Which ones? The Tories for example the Tories against, I don't
:10:17. > :10:22.know John Reid and Charles Clarke, for example? Let's take the Charles
:10:22. > :10:29.Clarke story, I have admitted in the book I orchestrated a briefing
:10:29. > :10:33.war and his anti-social behave representative Louise Casey, they
:10:33. > :10:37.had no idea that I was responsible for that, and Charles Clarke's
:10:37. > :10:43.advisers would pour their hearts out to me about Louise Casey, if
:10:43. > :10:46.they weren't knowing that, and they were close, how could Gordon Brown
:10:46. > :10:52.work out they were coming from the special adviser. Not only was it a
:10:52. > :10:54.man described by other insiders in Downing Street as psychologically
:10:54. > :10:57.flawed, he was away with the fairies half the time was he? Not
:10:57. > :11:01.at all. But he had bigger and better things to be getting on with
:11:01. > :11:05.than worrying about where a particular story appeared on the
:11:05. > :11:07.front of the Sunday Times from. It wasn't for Gordon Brown to think,
:11:07. > :11:11.he didn't understand how I operated, that is the truth of it. I regarded
:11:11. > :11:14.myself as being responsible for giving him an unparalleled
:11:14. > :11:19.relationship with Sunday newspapers so that they didn't attack him. Did
:11:19. > :11:23.Ed Balls and Ed Miliband know what you were up to? Even less than gord
:11:23. > :11:29.Dan did, they didn't work with me on a day-to-day basis as I did with
:11:29. > :11:32.gord Dan. I spent half my life going around to journalists with
:11:33. > :11:41.him, I didn't do that Miliband or Balls. You have described in the
:11:41. > :11:44.extracts we have seen how the then Prime Minister, Gordon Brown
:11:44. > :11:46.exploded periodically, did you come to the conclusion he was
:11:46. > :11:51.psychologically flawed? No, I thought he was a great man. A
:11:51. > :11:56.piercesome temper? Like a lot of us. He was a hugely tender man, not out
:11:56. > :11:58.in the extracts today. There was a tenderness and care about him and
:11:58. > :12:02.concern for his staff that you don't really see in the memoirs,
:12:02. > :12:05.hopefully people will see from the book I have written. The stuff you
:12:05. > :12:10.were putting into the newspapers reflects on him doesn't it?
:12:10. > :12:15.Ultimately it does, because I was employed by him. And...And He
:12:15. > :12:19.protected you? He knew that in April 2009 when I was doing for
:12:19. > :12:23.arguably far worse things than I have admitted to in this book, he
:12:23. > :12:26.was deeply ashamed at that, and deeply ashamed that was done by
:12:26. > :12:29.somebody in his employment. How do you think politics gets to the
:12:29. > :12:31.state where people like you are able to do what you did? Because
:12:31. > :12:35.people don't tell the truth. That is what I have tried to do in this
:12:35. > :12:37.book. If people aren't honest about how politics really operates you
:12:37. > :12:42.can't clean it up. The great thing about this week, as much as Labour
:12:42. > :12:45.people will feel this has been disastrous for them as was said.
:12:45. > :12:49.Every single member of the Shadow Cabinet has now made a commitment
:12:49. > :12:52.and vow they will never do anonymous briefing, we never had
:12:52. > :12:54.that before and didn't have it under the Conservative opposition
:12:55. > :12:59.or previous Labour Government, hopefully that will be a good thing
:12:59. > :13:03.and held to that standard. I wasn't trying to produce that effect, but
:13:03. > :13:07.never the less that is the result. Can politics be done that way
:13:07. > :13:11.nowadays? It should be. You concluded, inside Number Ten it
:13:11. > :13:16.couldn't be done like that? But I was wrong. I shouldn't have
:13:16. > :13:20.operated that way. From my point of view, I was, I don't want to blame
:13:20. > :13:24.the system, but the longer stayed in that system, the worse my
:13:24. > :13:31.behaviour became. Are you worried? Deeply. And ashamed. The people you
:13:31. > :13:37.hurt, would you like to apologise to them? And I do in the book. I do
:13:37. > :13:40.feel ashamed and sorry to those individuals whose careers I
:13:40. > :13:46.affected. And even more sow to the sort of, you know, if you -- so, to
:13:46. > :13:52.the sort of innocent bystanders that got in the by, they lost jobs
:13:52. > :13:55.because people got shuffled out of Government. People were mentioned
:13:55. > :14:00.in the context of sleazey stories who did nothing to deis serve to be
:14:00. > :14:05.there and not members of a political party. I'm sorry for that.
:14:05. > :14:10.Have you sought abs illusion? Those religious -- Be a sol illusion?
:14:10. > :14:16.Those religious things are private. I admit the truth and I'm being
:14:16. > :14:20.honest in the book. I I have friends of mine in the Labour Party
:14:20. > :14:24.admit to me, if they tried to write a book was not honest about
:14:24. > :14:28.everything I had done they would destroy my credibility. I took the
:14:28. > :14:32.view I will take them at their word. You confessed to some things that
:14:32. > :14:35.may be criminal offences, the misuse of computers act for
:14:35. > :14:38.example? I'm sure Jeremy because I was always very careful about this
:14:38. > :14:42.during the years that I wasn't committing any criminal offences. I
:14:42. > :14:46.go at great lengths to explain how I would not leak classified
:14:46. > :14:49.documents, you know, and I would take pains. You are not worried
:14:49. > :14:54.about a police investigation? I'm happy to talk to the police if they
:14:54. > :14:57.want an explanation. What about a suggestion from another
:14:57. > :15:00.Conservative MP that you should be denied your Civil Service pension?
:15:00. > :15:04.I was denied all sorts of things when forced to resign in April 2009
:15:04. > :15:09.if they want to take my pension that is up to them. You are not
:15:09. > :15:13.trying to illicit our sympathy? Not at all, I have been well paid for
:15:13. > :15:16.writing this book, if that's what the Civil Service want to do and
:15:16. > :15:21.think it is appropriate, that is up to them. I'm not going to sit and
:15:21. > :15:25.plead. It raises the question whether we can believe a word in
:15:25. > :15:28.the book? If people read the book they will see I haven't hidden or
:15:28. > :15:32.taken anything out. I have been honest not only about what I did
:15:32. > :15:34.and the impact it had on me and my personal life. I don't think many
:15:35. > :15:38.people read this book and think they are reading someone that is
:15:38. > :15:43.trying to obscure the truth or be dishonest. Is there anyone here to,
:15:43. > :15:46.listening to this account of what life was like, at the heart of
:15:46. > :15:50.power in this country, I mean what does it make you think about
:15:50. > :15:55.politics? You in the second row, please? I think it is very
:15:55. > :15:59.indicative of the way society has become and how challenging this
:15:59. > :16:03.country is now. I don't feel there is a great left in Great Britain
:16:03. > :16:06.because of the damage done by the last Government. The chap with his
:16:06. > :16:11.hand up behind you. I feel that what you have done is part of you
:16:11. > :16:17.said the "system", what Damien has done is part of the system, and I'm
:16:17. > :16:22.wondering do you not concern yourself with actually causing the
:16:22. > :16:26.downfall of the Labour Party? I don't think this will happen,
:16:26. > :16:29.frankly I don't think this will make a single difference to how
:16:29. > :16:33.people cast their vote for the next election. It might make a few
:16:33. > :16:35.people look inside now, but I don't think it will make any difference
:16:35. > :16:40.to the outcome of the next election. So I disagree with you. How you
:16:40. > :16:44.behaved and what it has done to trust in politics, that must
:16:44. > :16:48.trouble you, doesn't it? It does, but you know what would be more
:16:48. > :16:52.damaging than that is to pretend these things don't happen and not
:16:52. > :16:53.to be honest about that. Whenever you have had these kinds of periods,
:16:53. > :16:57.to be honest about that. Whenever I compare it to the banking crisis,
:16:57. > :17:00.when you think about the banking crisis, if all we heard was the
:17:00. > :17:03.individuals are responsible for those kinds of catastrophic
:17:03. > :17:09.failures in the banking crisis were swept under the carpet, we would
:17:09. > :17:16.never clean up the system. You talked in the vt with an altruistic
:17:16. > :17:18.gesture on your part, not only have you caused damage to the Labour
:17:18. > :17:22.Party, but also the perception from the public who are really fatigued
:17:22. > :17:26.and very cynical about politics in general. How do you feel about
:17:26. > :17:29.that? I would hope when people would read the book as a whole they
:17:29. > :17:32.would see both that this is a would read the book as a whole they
:17:32. > :17:35.problem of the system that needs to be fixed so our politics can be
:17:35. > :17:40.fixed, a bit like the expenses scandal. And when we had the
:17:40. > :17:44.expenses scandal clearly there were people who were almost mild
:17:44. > :17:47.offenders, but there were serious offenders, I would regard myself as
:17:47. > :17:50.one of those in this context. That is the only way to clean up the
:17:50. > :17:54.system is to get to the bottom of why it happened. Do you still talk
:17:54. > :17:57.to the people at the top of the Labour Party and do they talk to
:17:57. > :18:01.you? I haven't for several months precisely because I was writing
:18:01. > :18:13.this book. When did you last talk to Ed Balls? I bumped him in the
:18:13. > :18:16.arsenal match, he was meeting Robert Peston they have a closer
:18:16. > :18:20.relationship. Ed Miliband? I haven't seen him since we bumped
:18:20. > :18:27.into each other in the park three or four years ago. Your predecessor
:18:27. > :18:32.Alastair Campbell seems to have come through similar actions and is
:18:32. > :18:38.now a media darling, perhaps there is a chance for you to redeem
:18:38. > :18:41.yourself. I'm really curious, if the police decide that you have
:18:41. > :18:44.committed a criminal offence, will you then just say it was all a pack
:18:44. > :18:47.of lies again, which would be actually of course more believable
:18:47. > :18:51.than what you are actually sitting there and saying. No and I wouldn't
:18:51. > :18:55.be able to, I have been clear in the book about exactly what stories
:18:55. > :18:59.I was responsible for briefing, if the police wanted to say that story
:18:59. > :19:03.was a breach of the law then, I would be banged to rights. That's
:19:03. > :19:08.the honest truth. And then perhaps if you were in prison would you
:19:08. > :19:12.write the sequel in April 2015? I'm not sure people would be as
:19:12. > :19:16.interested in that. I think they might be. There is a gentleman over
:19:16. > :19:19.here with his hand up. Damien if you are truly sorry about the
:19:19. > :19:23.damage you have done to the Labour Party, how about donating your fee
:19:23. > :19:28.to the Labour Party to redeem yourself and make amends. Well, the
:19:28. > :19:33.fact is when I left Government, when I left the Labour Party I left
:19:33. > :19:37.with nothing. I got no, I'm not saying I should have done, but I
:19:37. > :19:41.did leave with nothing, I have a lot of debts from that period, the
:19:41. > :19:44.majority of the money I make from writing that book will pay off
:19:44. > :19:47.those debts. That is the reality. How do you rate the current spin
:19:47. > :19:52.operation in the Labour Party, are they as good as you? It depends
:19:52. > :19:56.what you think I was good at. There is certainly. You obviously thought
:19:56. > :19:59.you were pretty good at the time? I think I was good at certain things.
:19:59. > :20:02.There are things that haven't necessarily come out from the Daily
:20:02. > :20:04.Mail articles, I think people in the Labour Party and the
:20:04. > :20:07.Conservative Party will read from the book and would say they would
:20:07. > :20:12.like to have someone doing that kind of job. The 24/7 monitoring of
:20:12. > :20:15.the media and making shower that bad stories about the Government,
:20:15. > :20:20.as much as possible didn't appear. Even the stories I talked about
:20:20. > :20:25.leaking, I did those in positive ways. You know take the Charles
:20:25. > :20:28.Clarke and Louise Casey stories, they were positive stories about
:20:28. > :20:32.what the Government would do to tackle anti-social behaviour. Other
:20:32. > :20:35.stories don't fall into that category? No, but the majority of
:20:35. > :20:38.things I did over the years were, about positively promoting the
:20:38. > :20:41.Government and a huge amount of stopping. Would you go back to
:20:41. > :20:46.politics? I don't think they would have me, quite rightly. One last
:20:46. > :20:55.question. You had a team that worked with you, you didn't do this
:20:55. > :21:02.by yourself. And they all kept quiet, so hoi can you justify that
:21:02. > :21:06.they kept quiet and why didn't they speak? The fact is I didn't have a
:21:06. > :21:09.team, for the entire period when I was head of communications at the
:21:09. > :21:12.Treasury I had a large Treasury press office but they weren't
:21:12. > :21:15.involved in this, they were civil servants. When I was a special
:21:15. > :21:19.adviser, a press adviser to Gordon Brown I was largely doing that on
:21:19. > :21:23.my own. You did that all by yourself. Yeah, and you know I
:21:23. > :21:27.describe exactly how. Thank you very much. I don't suppose they are
:21:27. > :21:32.missing us much inside the conference hall tonight, it has
:21:32. > :21:37.been an oddly passionless affair so far, the highlight of which was a
:21:37. > :21:40.speech from Ed Balls today, the Shadow Chancellor, the Labour
:21:40. > :21:43.leadership is desperate to establish credibility because the
:21:43. > :21:47.electorate associates Labour with the meltdown which preceded their
:21:47. > :21:51.ejection from power. So Ed Balls talked both about investment, and
:21:51. > :22:07.about continuing cuts. Our political editor, watched it all.
:22:07. > :22:11.Is this the key for Labour leaders? Not chilllaxing in the dangerously
:22:11. > :22:15.cream leather sofa, but the whole perspex and plastic structure, the
:22:15. > :22:18.conservatory test is a test Labour politicians set themselves. Any
:22:18. > :22:22.politician who doesn't understand the desire to own one of these, so
:22:22. > :22:26.the argument goes, is unfit to lead the Labour Party. This isn't a
:22:26. > :22:30.living, breathing conservatory, it is a company that caters for people
:22:30. > :22:34.who would like conservatories, that is the kind of business that Labour
:22:34. > :22:39.strategists think the party needs to be in. Right now it is polling
:22:39. > :22:43.at around 30-35% in a opinion polls. But to be up to that point where it
:22:43. > :22:48.is really sure of a good grip on Government, it needs to be up above
:22:48. > :22:53.40%. To get there it needs to reach out to new voters. Probably Middle
:22:53. > :22:55.England voters, people who Labour strategists like to say in a
:22:55. > :22:59.England voters, people who Labour shorthand have, or would like to
:22:59. > :23:03.have a conservatory. It is for that reason that this evening Newsnight
:23:03. > :23:08.is obsessed with glass houses. Tony Blair is held up as the king
:23:08. > :23:14.of conservatories, he won three election victories, largely with
:23:14. > :23:17.this man at his side. Alastair Campbell I said conservatory test,
:23:17. > :23:21.and you said you like it, why? That is exactly the sort of person that
:23:21. > :23:26.the Labour Party has to have in mind when thinking about policy.
:23:26. > :23:29.And there is a real danger when you get to a Labour Party Conference
:23:29. > :23:35.that people imagine this is the real world, and everybody is
:23:35. > :23:39.talking about Damien McBride this, and all the small stuff, and for
:23:39. > :23:43.the public they want to know about them and their lives and their
:23:43. > :23:46.living standards, and the idea of the Labour Party, one of the things
:23:46. > :23:49.that I think new Labour and Tony Blair was really good at was
:23:49. > :23:54.understanding people's basic aspirations. A lot of people have a
:23:54. > :23:58.basic aspiration to extend their house with a conservatory.
:23:58. > :24:03.Newsnight asked polling company, YouGov, to survey the attitudes of
:24:03. > :24:06.those with conservatories and those without. Fewer conservatory owners
:24:06. > :24:10.believe Labour cares about people like them. That's compared with the
:24:10. > :24:14.general public. There is more support for the coalition's benefit
:24:14. > :24:18.general public. There is more cap among conservatory owners than
:24:18. > :24:22.among the general public, just. All political parties are hoping to win
:24:22. > :24:26.over the floating voters within that group called "the strivers" or
:24:26. > :24:32."hard working families", however you want to characterise it. And
:24:32. > :24:36.aspiring conservatory owners are one such label for that group. The
:24:36. > :24:40.Labour Party still has a lot of work to do and a lot of people to
:24:40. > :24:45.win over, particular low on the issues of immigration and welfare,
:24:45. > :24:49.-- particularly on the issues of immigration and welfare to win an
:24:49. > :24:54.election. The MP Foris left-wingen to North, a critic of new Labour,
:24:54. > :24:57.thinks a conservatory test is a wrong test. People are worried
:24:57. > :25:04.about health, education, housing, jobs, particularly for young people.
:25:04. > :25:08.In my constituency I get very few letters or e-mails of concern about
:25:08. > :25:11.the provision of conservatories. You have actually got four children
:25:11. > :25:16.sharing one bedroom in a two bedroom flat on the 15th floor, I'm
:25:16. > :25:20.sure they would love a conservatory. This weekend many policy pot plants
:25:20. > :25:23.have been brought out by Labour, a pledge to reverse the Bedroom Tax,
:25:23. > :25:27.a re- requirement on companies that hire a foreign skilled worker to
:25:27. > :25:32.train an apprentice. The details on this one wilted a little. Next dawn
:25:32. > :25:36.to dusk daycare, sounded great, but questions about funding lingered.
:25:36. > :25:40.Today another pledge to help parents pay for childcare. Again it
:25:40. > :25:46.look good, but it may also be funded by an already earmarked pot
:25:46. > :25:49.of money. One former aide to Miliband ban believes the
:25:49. > :25:54.conservatory test needs updating. The insecurity means that people
:25:54. > :25:56.areage husband is about their prospects, -- anxious about their
:25:57. > :26:02.prospects, you might think next year I can have two hole day, the
:26:02. > :26:06.year after that I will build a con- - holidays, the next year after I
:26:06. > :26:10.will build a conservatory. And now it is I don't know if I will have a
:26:10. > :26:20.job or afford the fees for university. That is affecting as
:26:20. > :26:24.much Middle England? People are genuinely struggling in work. You
:26:24. > :26:26.don't have to be in a council house, relying on social security to be
:26:27. > :26:32.struggling right now. Middle England may be feeling the chill of
:26:32. > :26:36.economic insecurity, but at Labour Party Conference today few thought
:26:36. > :26:41.the conservatory principle should be completely demolished, just a
:26:41. > :26:43.little renovation perhaps, nothing drastic. Of course keep the cream
:26:43. > :26:54.leather sofa. Now the number two in drastic. Of course keep the cream
:26:54. > :26:57.the Labour Treasury team, Rachel Reeves is here, have you got a
:26:57. > :27:01.conservatory? I was thinking you might ask me that, I don't have one.
:27:01. > :27:05.Do you aspire to have one? I don't think it would work on the house I
:27:05. > :27:11.live in. But many of my friends have conservatories. How is it that
:27:11. > :27:13.a party can be both the party of conservatory-owners and the party
:27:14. > :27:18.that wants to abolish the bedroom tax, as you call it? Well, what
:27:18. > :27:21.we're talking about this week at conference is the cost of living
:27:21. > :27:26.cry is, that is affecting a huge range of families from those on the
:27:26. > :27:30.minimum wage struggling, perhaps with the Bedroom Tax, up to
:27:30. > :27:36.families on middle incomes who are feeling insecure right now, who is
:27:36. > :27:40.perhaps a mum who wants to go back to work but doesn't think it adds
:27:40. > :27:45.up because of childcare. A range of things to help with the cost of
:27:45. > :27:48.living. Not just to help those at bottom but up the distribution. You
:27:48. > :27:54.mentioned childcare there, there is to be greater, if you get into
:27:54. > :27:57.office, there will be greater childcare providers. Two things,
:27:57. > :28:01.three and four-year-olds where parents are in work will get 25
:28:01. > :28:05.hours of free childcare, and wrap around childcare at school from 8-6
:28:05. > :28:09.to help those who have to go out to work. Paid for by what? For the
:28:09. > :28:13.three and four-year-olds we will increase the bank levy. The
:28:13. > :28:20.Government introduced a bank levy to raise £2.5 million but it has
:28:20. > :28:24.raised £800 million less than that. The increase in the bank levy have
:28:24. > :28:29.been promised to the youth jobs guarantee? No that is being paid
:28:29. > :28:33.for by the bank bonus tax. That is something Alastair Darling
:28:33. > :28:37.introduced. What about the VAT increase, has it been promised for
:28:37. > :28:42.that? We are not saying we will reduce VAT at the next election, we
:28:42. > :28:45.have said we will provide the childcare. Our misunderstanding,
:28:45. > :28:49.despite someone speaking for your party said so? What we will say on
:28:49. > :28:52.VAT, over the last three years when the economy is flatlining, we
:28:52. > :28:56.thought during that period of time to cut VAT would stimulate the
:28:56. > :29:01.recovery and create jobs and growth. Now as we are hopefully moving into
:29:01. > :29:05.recovery mode, VAT cut isn't the right thing to do. There are 1
:29:05. > :29:08.things for which the increase in the bank levy? I have just said
:29:08. > :29:14.what it will be used for, that is to pay for the childcare for three
:29:14. > :29:19.and four-year-olds. If you had £50 billion to spend, what would you
:29:19. > :29:23.spend it on? You are asking about HS2 and the north-south rail link.
:29:23. > :29:26.That is one thing it could be spent on? We're in favour, my
:29:27. > :29:31.constituency is in Leeds, the party are in favour of a new north-south
:29:31. > :29:38.rail link, but we're not going to give a blank cheque to it. You
:29:38. > :29:42.can't think of a better way of spending £50 billion than building
:29:42. > :29:50.a railway to leads? That would go to Birmingham and Leeds and
:29:50. > :29:57.Manchester and Nottingham and derby -- Derby, could really revitalise
:29:57. > :30:03.areas and bring growth and jobs. You can't decide perhaps what might
:30:03. > :30:07.be as good? The thing about infrastructure is it can realise
:30:07. > :30:12.benefits over a number of years. We won't give a blank cheque to HS2
:30:12. > :30:15.other any other infrastructure investment. When money is tight,
:30:15. > :30:20.you have got to say that every pound has to be well spent. And you
:30:20. > :30:23.have also got to say that no project can see its cost rise and
:30:23. > :30:27.rise and rees, and the Government say it is fine. -- and rise. And
:30:27. > :30:32.the Government say it is fine. They are not doing it in all other areas,
:30:32. > :30:37.there is taxes and increase and prices going up. What would you
:30:37. > :30:41.spend £50 billion on? There are lots of things. Better than a
:30:41. > :30:44.railway? We have made the commitment to high-speed rail, but
:30:44. > :30:49.if the costs go up we have to look at it again. It won't have a blank
:30:49. > :30:53.cheque, we can't just see the costs spiral and underwrite a project at
:30:53. > :30:57.any cost. That is not right. If the costs rise we will have to look
:30:57. > :31:02.again at it. Let me ask you about Ed Miliband, why is it that he
:31:02. > :31:08.doesn't look like a Prime Minister? That's your judgment. I think that
:31:08. > :31:11.Ed Miliband will make...It Is a judgment of the polling evidence?
:31:11. > :31:13.Ed Miliband will make a great Prime Minister because he uns the
:31:13. > :31:18.challenges that ordinary families are facing with the cost of living
:31:18. > :31:24.crisis. Ed of talking about issues like the squeezed middle, taking on
:31:24. > :31:27.vested interests and the banks and Rupert Murdoch before other
:31:27. > :31:33.politicians were brave enough to say that. This is not a statistic
:31:33. > :31:38.kal representative sample here, people here, d statistical
:31:38. > :31:43.representive sample here, some have conservatories and some don't, they
:31:43. > :31:45.are fine citizens. Does Ed Miliband strike you as a Prime Minister, can
:31:45. > :31:55.are fine citizens. Does Ed Miliband you imagine him in Downing Street?
:31:55. > :32:04.I can. Two people can? Two of you can? What is it about him? I think
:32:04. > :32:09.he's a man of virttu, he believes what he's saying -- virtue, he
:32:09. > :32:14.believes what he's saying. I think he's genuine and speaks from the
:32:14. > :32:22.heart, that is why I like him. Who can't imagine Ed Miliband in doubt?
:32:22. > :32:29.You Can think of him as a devisive person, he's not a unifyer, you
:32:29. > :32:37.need that in the top position. He's a well-meaning man isn't he? He may
:32:37. > :32:40.well be that. But he's still not a, unifier. One remembers his
:32:40. > :32:50.background with all the viciousness we have heard earlier on in the
:32:50. > :32:58.meeting. About you how he got the job as leader? And during the
:32:58. > :33:02.course of his career in politics. I think he's a possible future leader
:33:02. > :33:07.because he's growing into the part. He is slowly trying to reach out
:33:07. > :33:11.and he's trying to put a balance together by bringing in different
:33:11. > :33:16.players together from the old progressive Labour to the Labour
:33:16. > :33:22.that we have today. I think he has started reaching out, Emily Benn
:33:22. > :33:25.has been moved down, we have a younger generation moving in and
:33:26. > :33:30.that is a good move. When you hear someone like Rachel, I'm not being
:33:30. > :33:35.personal here, do you feel politicians are talking to ordinary
:33:35. > :33:40.people as ordinary people need to be spoken to? I think there has
:33:40. > :33:46.been since Mrs Thatcher where she said there is no sense of community
:33:46. > :33:51.any more. And the rupture of the social bond between politicians and
:33:51. > :33:56.ordinary people. In the second row here? I think in terms of being
:33:56. > :33:58.out-of-touch I think the sort of, the definition of Middle England
:33:58. > :34:01.isn't around aspirations around to the definition of Middle England
:34:01. > :34:08.have a conservatory or whether they have one or not. There is there is
:34:08. > :34:15.plenty of Middle England people who want to get on the property ladder,
:34:15. > :34:20.full stop. Because Labour was prosperous people are paying the
:34:20. > :34:26.price now. Aspiration has shifted and people's aspirations are to
:34:26. > :34:30.have enough disposable income for enjoyable things like holidays,
:34:30. > :34:34.with £50 billion affordable housing would be good. You haveen gauged
:34:34. > :34:39.her interest now you are not talking about HS2? It is a really
:34:39. > :34:45.important point made there. It is also about spending time with your
:34:45. > :34:49.family, people want to earn to be able to go on holiday or build a
:34:49. > :34:53.conservatory or get on the housing ladder. They want to earn enough to
:34:53. > :34:57.get to spend time with their families and not take two jobs. I
:34:57. > :34:59.know so many people who are now working one job during the day but
:34:59. > :35:01.have to take another job during the working one job during the day but
:35:01. > :35:05.evening, because prices are working one job during the day but
:35:05. > :35:11.and the waging aren't keeping pace. It is things like that, you know,
:35:11. > :35:14.it sound base you can but for a lot of people that is the basic
:35:14. > :35:18.aspiration to earn enough to do the things perhaps in the past people
:35:18. > :35:26.have taken for granted. That is really worrying. And politicians
:35:26. > :35:30.need to wake up to some of that. We have to join our diplomatic editor
:35:30. > :35:34.who has been watching event in Kenya today.
:35:34. > :35:38.The siege in Nairobi is now over. Or so the Kenyan Government said,
:35:39. > :35:49.just before we came on air. The official death toll now stand
:35:49. > :35:56.at 62 with six Britains among them. Britains among them. The seize of
:35:56. > :36:01.the Westgate Mall created terror and international crisis, shoppers
:36:01. > :36:04.were cut down by Al-Shabab militants, estimated up to be 15.
:36:04. > :36:09.Some of the dead lay where they fell for hours. Compounding the
:36:10. > :36:13.confusion about how many had been killed or were still being held
:36:13. > :36:19.hostage. This morning columns of black smoke emerged, and there was
:36:19. > :36:23.frequent gunfire as Kenyan troops started clearing the building. From
:36:23. > :36:27.this satellite view you can see where that last shot was taken from,
:36:27. > :36:31.pretty much from this angle, the car park here is behind the
:36:31. > :36:37.building and the smoke was coming from behind the mall. Probably
:36:37. > :36:42.produced by vehicles burning in that war park behind. Armed police
:36:42. > :36:47.had tried to fight their way in yesterday, from the ground floor,
:36:47. > :36:54.but fell back without success. Today, attacks were launched from
:36:54. > :36:58.the top floor as well by the Kenyan army's Ranger Strike Force. This
:36:58. > :37:04.special unit has been trained and supplied by the Americans. These
:37:04. > :37:10.images show them arriving yesterday. In give away Humvees with special
:37:10. > :37:13.rifles, they were involved in In give away Humvees with special
:37:13. > :37:18.yesterday as aborted attempt to storm the ground floor. The wider
:37:18. > :37:22.area of them all of secured, meanwhile, by the police, general
:37:22. > :37:27.service unit, putting in a cordon around there, but that was only
:37:27. > :37:31.partially successful, with many bystanders getting close to the
:37:31. > :37:37.scene. Throughout the day the slow process of clearing the mall shop-
:37:37. > :37:42.by-shop continued, with the Kenyan authorities announcing they had
:37:42. > :37:47.killed two Al-Shabab gunmen and the army taking casualties. We have
:37:47. > :37:50.really covered the building. We have taken control of the whole
:37:50. > :37:54.building, and there are no indications that there are still
:37:54. > :38:00.any hostages. We are still, however, very careful just in the event that
:38:00. > :38:06.there is any that rerescue them. But going by the process of search
:38:06. > :38:10.-- we res view them. But going by the process -- rescue them, by
:38:10. > :38:14.going by the process and looking at the building it is unlikely there
:38:14. > :38:19.are more hostages. The authorities were claiming to be in control of
:38:19. > :38:25.the mall but many questions remain, not least whether all of the gunmen
:38:25. > :38:29.who took the place were eliminated or some descape. The Government in
:38:29. > :38:34.Nairobi says all of the hostages have now been accounted for. We
:38:34. > :38:40.have been hearing many powerful stories over the past few days from
:38:40. > :38:43.those inside the mall. Kamal Kaur, a mother of two injured children
:38:43. > :38:48.was hosting a cookery competition when the shooting occurred, she
:38:48. > :38:52.describes how sh she tried to protect over 30 -- she tried to
:38:52. > :38:57.protect over 30 children she had with them? The animals were worse,
:38:57. > :39:01.they were climbing on top of the, the adults, were trying to climb
:39:01. > :39:04.over them, they were stepping on the children. I think somebody
:39:04. > :39:09.carried my daughter out, she couldn't work she was hurt pretty
:39:09. > :39:15.badly on her leg. She couldn't work, a Samaritan picked her up and ran
:39:15. > :39:24.off to her. I said a prayer to look after her, and then...(cries) ...we
:39:24. > :39:28.pushed the kids away, we ran towards each other, we heard more
:39:28. > :39:32.firing, we thought they were back to fire at us, but it was the guys
:39:32. > :39:36.who had come in and they were protecting us and firing to keep
:39:36. > :39:39.them away. Harrowing stories there, Richard
:39:39. > :39:45.Watson is with us now. Do you think this is the shape of things to come
:39:46. > :39:50.in terms of Al-Shabab exporting this kind of violence from Somalia?
:39:50. > :39:56.Looking beyond the awful attacks of the last cop of days, this attack
:39:56. > :40:00.is de-- couple of days the attack shows that Al-Shabab are a force to
:40:00. > :40:03.be reckoned with. They have had African Union troops take away
:40:03. > :40:08.security over the years, and internal splits about whether it
:40:08. > :40:12.should focus on Somalia or have a Jihad link to Al-Qaeda. One
:40:12. > :40:17.question is whether it is about Somalia or Al-Qaeda. Today I spoke
:40:17. > :40:18.to someone who claimed to be a commander in the field in Somalia.
:40:18. > :40:41.This is what he had to say? Reports about possible UK or US
:40:41. > :40:46.nationals being among those who went into the mall. What is your
:40:46. > :40:49.assessment of that? There is no confirmation but it is very
:40:49. > :40:55.possible. My understanding is that 50 British nationals have joined
:40:55. > :40:58.the ranks of Al-Shabab in recent years, it is entirely possible,
:40:58. > :41:01.there is no confirmation on this point at the moment. What is most
:41:01. > :41:07.worrying for western security agencies is that the ideology of
:41:07. > :41:13.Al-Qaeda is proving appealing for a tiny minority. This idea that laem
:41:13. > :41:18.is -- Islam is at war with the west, and there is an Islamic duty to
:41:18. > :41:23.create an Islamic state. It is worrying that some young men appear
:41:23. > :41:26.to go going to Somalia and I think 100 people have gone to Syria to
:41:27. > :41:30.fight. They go there to and they will eventually probably come back
:41:30. > :41:35.with British passports. What has happened to them then? I asked the
:41:35. > :41:56.Al-Shabab commander on the ground about British support?
:41:56. > :42:02.Shabab's presence in East Africa, it is about soft targets in Europe
:42:02. > :42:07.and the battle of ideas. Now back it is about soft targets in Europe
:42:07. > :42:18.to Jeremy in the Newsnight conservatory.
:42:18. > :42:19.In this rather cold conservatory now we are joined to discuss the
:42:19. > :42:24.issues of the Labour conference and now we are joined to discuss the
:42:24. > :42:30.how Ed Miliband is doing by Steve Richards author of The Brown Years,
:42:30. > :42:35.and Jenny Russell, who writes for the Times and the Standard. What is
:42:35. > :42:39.Ed Miliband's problem? I think his problem is that in opposition you
:42:39. > :42:44.need to be a political artist, above all. That opposition is about
:42:44. > :42:49.pretending almost to seize the agenda, always appear to be on the
:42:49. > :42:53.offensive, to be mighty and powerful, even though you have no
:42:53. > :42:59.power at all. And he's not brilliant at artistry, but to give
:42:59. > :43:04.you one example of the problem that this gives, and almost a conundrum.
:43:04. > :43:09.He's the most experienced leader of the opposition, for four decades, I
:43:09. > :43:13.tell you why, the last leader of an opposition to win an election with
:43:13. > :43:17.cabinet experience is 1979 and Margaret Thatcher. He has been in
:43:17. > :43:22.the cabinet and the Treasury, yet people say he's so inexperienced
:43:22. > :43:28.and he's not ready for power. I don't think Jenny agrees with you?
:43:28. > :43:33.That is a fact! I agree with that, I think Ed is principled and
:43:33. > :43:38.thoughtful and analytical, he's no good at conveying the ideas to
:43:38. > :43:40.interviewers like you on air. He's not yet comfortable on skin, he
:43:40. > :43:44.interviewers like you on air. He's gives the impression he has come on
:43:44. > :43:48.air with preprepared phrases that he will stick to no matter what
:43:48. > :43:52.questions he's asked. It is seems then as if he and other Labour
:43:52. > :43:57.politicians haven't created a political landscape over which they
:43:57. > :44:02.can range in comfort. Too often you listen and watch. It is as if they
:44:02. > :44:07.are on a Little Rock on the sea and terrified of stepping off in case
:44:07. > :44:12.they go in. That is fatal in the contemporary political Scotland
:44:12. > :44:14.scape. Jo You reinforced my idea about artistry, interviewing with
:44:14. > :44:18.people like yourself is part of about artistry, interviewing with
:44:18. > :44:22.this. I think two things, first of all they will not be caught out as
:44:22. > :44:27.the Conservatives hope on areas of tax and spend. Because they look so
:44:27. > :44:31.young people forget, Ed Balls and Ed Miliband have fought four
:44:31. > :44:35.elections avoiding the tax and spend traps. They won't fall into
:44:36. > :44:43.them this time. That is not the issue, the issue is how they come
:44:43. > :44:48.across. The Tories hope to win an election based on the spending
:44:48. > :44:53.campaign. Do you think they are coherent on policies? They are
:44:53. > :44:57.working out policies very slowly, and those are the prerequisites,
:44:57. > :45:00.you will not get elected unless your policies look coherent. Labour
:45:00. > :45:04.comes forward and suggests something that is very important,
:45:04. > :45:09.like the squeezed middle or the need for responsible capitalism or
:45:09. > :45:13.the need for a pause on Syria. Having made these statements it
:45:13. > :45:16.retreats from them, there is a vacuum, you get the impression they
:45:16. > :45:22.have thought up this part of the policy and the rest isn't woarked
:45:22. > :45:27.out. When you posed the question are they coherent in policy. It is
:45:27. > :45:32.difficult in opposition to go into policy detail. For a year now all
:45:32. > :45:36.of us three in our different ways have been saying where are your
:45:36. > :45:41.policies, they announce sum and us three say, qu how are you going to
:45:41. > :45:46.pay for them? The moment you get into that you fall into all kinds
:45:46. > :45:50.of difficulty, it is incredibly difficult to translate concepts
:45:50. > :45:54.into detailed policy. That is common sense, if your son or
:45:54. > :45:59.daughter said to you I want to buy a motorbike, you would say how are
:45:59. > :46:03.you going to pay for it? That is absolutely right. Every now and
:46:03. > :46:07.then you say I'm not selling a motorbike because it gets into that
:46:07. > :46:11.difficulty. The problem any opposition has, and David Cameron
:46:11. > :46:16.had it trying to translate big society into detailed policy is how
:46:16. > :46:20.in advance, before you have, if you like broken through the electorate
:46:20. > :46:25.and gotten into power, you use policy to develop an argument. And
:46:25. > :46:28.it is very, very difficult, I completely agree with Jenny that is
:46:28. > :46:36.the essence of what they have to do. Where I disagree is you imply it is
:46:36. > :46:41.pretty easy and it is not. It is fundamentally, you have to work out
:46:41. > :46:44.the policies and be able to talk easily fluently and confidently
:46:44. > :46:49.about it. It is something that David Cameron does, Nigel Farage
:46:49. > :46:55.can do and Margaret Hodge. We are all sophisticated media consumers,
:46:55. > :46:58.we can take instantly if they are evasive or know what they are doing.
:46:58. > :47:03.That is what the two Labour politicians can't do. One thing a
:47:03. > :47:10.problem for this them. For the past two years the country has wanted to
:47:10. > :47:14.know an austerity alternative. Just as they are coming up the idea it
:47:14. > :47:18.looks a if the economy is proving and people may stop listening to
:47:18. > :47:21.them. That's it from the Newsnight
:47:21. > :47:26.conservatory on the south coast, miraculously it is still in one
:47:26. > :47:30.piece. Has Labour passed the conservatory test. We will find out
:47:30. > :47:34.in 18 months. We are back to our usual potting shed tomorrow night.
:47:34. > :47:39.If you hadn't had enough from Brighton today, conference is
:47:39. > :47:41.coming up, In Conference is coming up after this. It was announced
:47:41. > :47:45.that production of the Volkswagen up after this. It was announced
:47:45. > :47:48.camper vab will end for good at the end of the year. There have been
:47:48. > :47:54.ten million made since the first one appeared in 1950. Now new
:47:54. > :47:59.safety laws in Brazil still, the only country still manufacturing
:47:59. > :48:02.the van have prompted Volkswagen to announce a final run of 600, they
:48:02. > :48:11.will be the last ever made. Goodnight.
:48:11. > :48:17.M # Peace and love # Riding around
:48:17. > :48:23.# In a Volkswagen van # Thinking about the people upside
:48:23. > :48:31.down in Japan # Staring at the stars
:48:31. > :48:33.# And in a distant kal galaxy, wondering if there is someone out