:00:13. > :00:16.building of the Olympic Park, now he has been put in charge of
:00:16. > :00:21.another hugely costly bit of public spending. There is a new chairman's
:00:21. > :00:26.weight on the dead man's handle at the HS2, but is the fate of the
:00:26. > :00:29.train now passing from the realm of management to that of politics? The
:00:29. > :00:40.chief executive of this massive project is with us.
:00:40. > :00:45.We report on the persecution of Christians in Egypt, and one of the
:00:45. > :00:47.first foreign journalists to enter the town liberated from Islamist
:00:47. > :00:51.control. Too young to buy a drink and too
:00:52. > :00:56.young to drive, yet Ed Miliband thinks they are quite old enough to
:00:56. > :00:59.vote. Are 16-year-olds? I don't necessarily think 16-year-olds
:00:59. > :01:15.should have a vote, simply because we are not taught enough about
:01:15. > :01:20.politics. Lots more to come in the programme. HS2 the railway line
:01:21. > :01:24.that has achieved the remarkable feat of being endlessly complained
:01:24. > :01:30.about before it is built has a new boss. The new chairman is Sir David
:01:30. > :01:37.hiinggin, a man who moves from one public sector birth as effortlessly
:01:37. > :01:43.as a Bedouin travelling from oasis to oasis. In this case the oasis
:01:43. > :01:47.could turn out to be a mirage. The high-speed line is looking
:01:47. > :01:55.vulnerable. David Grossman explains why this is a new story rather than
:01:55. > :01:59.one for the business pages. By now the mood music surrounding HS2
:01:59. > :02:05.should be something like this, calm, harmonious, efficiency.
:02:05. > :02:11.Unfortunately it sounds more like this. (claanking noises) The
:02:11. > :02:15.Government has struggled to keep this project sounding sweet amid
:02:15. > :02:22.damaging reports and damaging headlines and defections from the
:02:22. > :02:28.cause. Tonight the Department of Transport took decisive action, out
:02:28. > :02:34.goes the chairman and in comes someone with Olympic experience.
:02:34. > :02:39.Out goes the man with experience as an engine and CrossRail. But there
:02:39. > :02:42.were doubts about him being an effective noise voice for HS2, his
:02:42. > :02:45.were doubts about him being an replacement, Mr Higgins was the
:02:45. > :02:49.chairman of the Olympic delivery authority. Personal lie I think the
:02:49. > :02:54.case for HS -- personally I think the case for HS2 is pretty weak. He
:02:54. > :02:57.has been uphill task, his background is with the Olympic
:02:57. > :02:59.has been uphill task, his delivery authority, and Network
:02:59. > :03:03.Rail, both difficult jobs. If anyone can do it he can do it. It
:03:03. > :03:07.is the last throw of the dice. If he can't turn around public views
:03:07. > :03:11.about HS2, I some what suspect the next Government will quietly drop
:03:11. > :03:20.it in some way or another. One big problem is the cost. Recently
:03:20. > :03:27.raised poun 10 billion to -- £10 billion to £42 billion, add in
:03:27. > :03:31.theing stock, and it is £50 -- the rolling stock and it is £50 billion.
:03:31. > :03:35.The public accounts committee of House of Commons have ridiculed the
:03:35. > :03:40.business case produce. Sir David needs to make the case far more
:03:41. > :03:47.robust. An updated business case is due in
:03:47. > :03:50.weeks to answer criticisms made by others among those the National
:03:50. > :03:54.Audit Office. Some say they are confident, but it is not too
:03:54. > :03:59.dramatic to conclude if this business case isn't bulletproof,
:03:59. > :04:03.watertight and utterly compelling, the whole project could be in
:04:03. > :04:07.jeopardy. There needs to be a better case made for HS2. It needs
:04:07. > :04:14.to shift on capacity, the public and politicians have to buy in to
:04:14. > :04:17.it, and David Higgins is an advocate, but it needs to be
:04:17. > :04:19.managed much better. The costs are not as high as people are saying,
:04:19. > :04:23.there is no doubt that Whitehall and the Treasury in particular need
:04:23. > :04:28.more confidence on how the project is managed.
:04:28. > :04:32.Although Labour originally proposed. HS2, tfs the Conservatives that
:04:32. > :04:37.leapt on it, as -- it was the Conservatives that lept on it, as a
:04:37. > :04:42.way of not expanding Heathrow and positive messages on regeneration.
:04:42. > :04:46.But there are signs of fracturing. On Monday Ed Balls made a marked
:04:46. > :04:50.move away from the project. It is not just whether a new high-speed
:04:50. > :04:55.line is a good idea or a bad idea, but whether it is the best way to
:04:55. > :05:01.spend £50 billion for the further tour of our country. The politics
:05:01. > :05:05.of this has evolved, it used to be broadly speaking north of England
:05:05. > :05:09.in favour, south of England less keen. However, there has been a
:05:09. > :05:13.growing realisation among some northern cities that once the new
:05:13. > :05:17.line is built their regular train service will become some what less
:05:18. > :05:20.regular. Added to that there are various academic studies that
:05:20. > :05:24.suggest that the real economic benefits will go to the south and
:05:24. > :05:29.not the north. For example, today at the Labour
:05:29. > :05:32.Party Conference in a BBC Daily Politics survey on HS2, Lord
:05:32. > :05:36.Prescott gave us his view. Why Politics survey on HS2, Lord
:05:36. > :05:39.cancel it? Because it isn't going to do anything for the north. The
:05:39. > :05:43.Government says it is still completely committed to the project.
:05:43. > :05:46.But today conceded that the HS2 bill might not have cleared
:05:46. > :05:49.parliament before the next election, which could make it a huge
:05:49. > :05:55.political issue come polling day. If Labour were to scrap it, they
:05:55. > :06:00.would have an extra £16 billion they could reassign to other
:06:00. > :06:05.infrastructure projects in their manifesto. That may ultimately
:06:05. > :06:10.prove an irresistable temptation. With us now is McAllister Munro,
:06:10. > :06:16.chief executive of the H -- McAllisteren to Munro, chief
:06:16. > :06:19.executive of the HS2 project. A bit of desperation to change chairman
:06:19. > :06:23.like this? No I see it as confidence in the project, that we
:06:23. > :06:26.will have the hybrid bill by the end of the year, and secondly that
:06:26. > :06:30.we are seriously looking forward to the next stage of the project, the
:06:30. > :06:34.build process and also moving forward into construction. Why has
:06:34. > :06:38.your current chairman been replaced? Our current chairman has
:06:38. > :06:42.done a fantastic job in getting us to this point, where we will be
:06:42. > :06:45.ready to deposit the hybrid bill by the end of the year. That is a key
:06:45. > :06:49.milestone, but we do then move on to a next phase. He has taken the
:06:49. > :06:53.decision that now is a good point for him to stand down. I can't
:06:53. > :07:01.think of a better possible successor to dough than Sir David -
:07:01. > :07:05.- Doug than Sir David Higgins after the success of the Olympics. Moving
:07:05. > :07:10.forward into now construction. When you say the new chairman's first
:07:10. > :07:14.priority will be scrutinising costs, he's scrutinising fiction, isn't
:07:14. > :07:17.he? I would expect him to be scrutinising costs. We have
:07:17. > :07:21.obviously had a lost of debate about costs. You don't know what
:07:22. > :07:23.they are? We would expect a new chairman to reassure himself on
:07:23. > :07:27.costs. You don't know what the chairman to reassure himself on
:07:27. > :07:29.final costs will be? We have made a thorough estimates of the costs and
:07:29. > :07:33.final costs will be? We have made a looked at the various risks around
:07:33. > :07:36.the costs, that is all allowed for in the contingency element, a large
:07:36. > :07:39.part of the increase we have seen. We have looked again at the risks,
:07:40. > :07:43.the Government has decided to set a budget that does cover the
:07:43. > :07:48.foreseeable risks in the projbt. We know we can proceed -- project. We
:07:48. > :07:52.know we can proceed with the cost envelope. Why is it then that so
:07:52. > :07:55.many politicians have lost faith in you? We have still got strong
:07:55. > :07:58.support among politicians. The Prime Minister is still very
:07:58. > :08:02.strongly supportive, so the Chancellor, the Deputy Prime
:08:03. > :08:05.Minister. If you actually listen to what Labour...This Was dreamed up
:08:05. > :08:11.by Labour when in Government? And adopted by the coalition. And you
:08:11. > :08:17.saw very clearly what happened this week when one person after another
:08:17. > :08:20.in the Labour shadow team distanced themselves and said we're not going
:08:20. > :08:24.to be behind this if the costs go any higher than they are now? I'm
:08:24. > :08:29.not at all surprised they say that, we are not expecting the costs to
:08:29. > :08:33.go higher. You probably weren't expecting them to go any higher
:08:33. > :08:36.when you originally put in the wrong estimate? We have started
:08:36. > :08:39.four-and-a-half years ago with a complete blank sheet with the
:08:39. > :08:43.project. At an early stage there are obviously risks. As we have
:08:43. > :08:47.gone forward we have done more work on the costs. We have a robust cost
:08:47. > :08:50.estimate now. We have a more significant contingency allowance,
:08:50. > :08:51.we are confident we can deliver within that. If you listen
:08:51. > :08:54.carefully to what has been said within that. If you listen
:08:54. > :08:57.this week, they are not actually saying they don't support high-
:08:57. > :09:00.speed rail. They are saying it has to be value for money. They won't
:09:00. > :09:04.speed rail. They are saying it has support it beyond £50 billion? We
:09:04. > :09:07.are determined to deliver it beyond that. I'm sure one of the first
:09:07. > :09:11.things Sir David Higgins will want to do is look closely at the
:09:11. > :09:14.project and how we make sure we do deliver it within the cost envelope.
:09:14. > :09:18.Isn't the truth of the matter that you some how took it for granted
:09:18. > :09:21.that you would always have Government and the political class
:09:21. > :09:26.generally behind you, and therefore failed to make the business case
:09:26. > :09:30.for HS2? We have always recognised this is bound to be a hugely
:09:30. > :09:34.controversial project, it will always be a political issue. There
:09:34. > :09:38.has been a lot of debate up until now. It has increased recently. But
:09:38. > :09:40.it has always been a political project. We do recognise, we need
:09:40. > :09:43.to make the case for strongly, I project. We do recognise, we need
:09:43. > :09:46.think the case is compelling, when you really look at it. When you
:09:46. > :09:49.look at the growth we have seen in the railways, a doubling in the
:09:50. > :09:53.number of people using the railways over the last 15 years, that growth
:09:53. > :09:56.continuing, there is no alternative that will actually provide the
:09:56. > :09:59.capacity this country needs in the future. And I think when you look
:09:59. > :10:03.at it carefully that is the conclusion you come to, of course
:10:03. > :10:07.we will have faith in it. According to you, what would happen to the
:10:07. > :10:10.country if it weren't built? If it is not built the railway will
:10:10. > :10:14.become increasingly crowded, hard choices would have to be made about
:10:14. > :10:18.what services run, where the trains stop, that will be a break on
:10:18. > :10:22.economic growth. If you look at what the OECD say, the World
:10:22. > :10:26.Economic Forum, they come to the conclusion that strong economists
:10:26. > :10:28.need a good transport infrastructure. That includes the
:10:28. > :10:32.railway structure. How big a setback will it be for Britain if
:10:32. > :10:36.it weren't built? It would be serious, what would happen is it
:10:36. > :10:39.would delay it. You can do incremental improvements keeping
:10:39. > :10:43.you going for a few years, sooner or later you get to the point where
:10:43. > :10:44.you can't keep adding to the existing railway. We are currently
:10:44. > :10:48.you can't keep adding to the working on a railway built in
:10:48. > :10:51.Victorian times T has done us a very good service, but we can't
:10:51. > :10:55.live on that through the 21st century and beyond. At some point
:10:55. > :10:58.we are going to have to invest in additional capacity. We need to
:10:58. > :11:02.really do it now, so that we have the capacity there in the time that
:11:02. > :11:06.we need it when we meet that capacity crunch in the middle of
:11:06. > :11:11.the next decade. If this project gets can I Bosched, because people
:11:12. > :11:16.-- kiboshed because people decide it is too expensive, how long would
:11:16. > :11:19.it set us back, you have presumably done all the sums? We and the
:11:19. > :11:23.Department of Network Rail, all forecasts, it will need this
:11:23. > :11:27.capacity in the middle of the next decade. At some point? Even
:11:27. > :11:31.planning now, with the process West need to go through, the period we
:11:31. > :11:33.need for con-- we need to go through and the period for
:11:33. > :11:37.construction, we need to plan for the middle of the decade. Planning
:11:37. > :11:40.now we have the new capacity when we need it. You could do
:11:40. > :11:43.incremental improvements, but sooner or later you have to make a
:11:43. > :11:46.incremental improvements, but really big increase in capacity.
:11:46. > :11:51.What is the feeling reason the organisation, you can sniff the
:11:51. > :11:56.wind, there has been a change of mood about HS2, do you feel that it
:11:56. > :11:59.is definitely going to happen? I'm very positive it will happen. I
:11:59. > :12:03.think there will continue to be debate, and we have to continue to
:12:03. > :12:07.show that we can deliver it for the cost. We have to continue to make
:12:07. > :12:10.the case for the benefits. As I say when you look at the case carefully,
:12:10. > :12:14.when you look at the alternatives, you believe that even if it got
:12:14. > :12:17.delayed people would decide sooner or later this is actually the only
:12:17. > :12:22.long-term solution. I don't think anyone would actually thank us in
:12:22. > :12:25.10-20 years time and look back and say why didn't they actually invest
:12:25. > :12:29.when they could. You are making the case but not talking like a woman
:12:29. > :12:32.who is certain it will happen? I believe very strongly it is going
:12:32. > :12:37.to happen, yes I absolutely do. That is why I'm doing the job. I'm
:12:37. > :12:41.sure that is why Sir David Higgins, coming in as chairman, he believes,
:12:41. > :12:43.he has made clear himself that he and his role in Network Rail does
:12:43. > :12:46.he has made clear himself that he not believe we can continue just to
:12:46. > :12:50.patch and mend the existing railway. That we do need to make this step
:12:50. > :12:54.change and deliver some new capacity and new railway lines and
:12:54. > :12:59.he's fully supportive of HS2 and sees that as a solution.
:12:59. > :13:02.Thank you very much. Sir David Higgins's on Radio 4's Today
:13:03. > :13:06.Programme tomorrow. The Archbishop of Canterbury has called the 80
:13:06. > :13:09.victims of the suicide bomb attack in Pakistan martyrs, since they
:13:09. > :13:13.were targeted because of their beliefs.
:13:13. > :13:17.They are not alone. Police in Egypt say they are pursuing Islamist
:13:18. > :13:22.extremists who have incited attacks on Christian targets there. The
:13:22. > :13:26.army has now retaken one town south of Cairo, Dalga, which had been
:13:26. > :13:29.under Islamist control. Some Christians are still afraid to
:13:29. > :13:37.return home. We have the first foreign reporter to enter the town
:13:37. > :13:42.its recapture. The film contains graphic images of victims killed in
:13:42. > :13:47.the vie lnt attacks. 1600 years of Christian history, reduced to a
:13:47. > :13:56.blackened ruin. This is what's left of the monastery of the Virgin Mary
:13:56. > :13:59.in St Abraham in Dalga, after a Muslim mob attacked it last month.
:13:59. > :14:10.On the 14th of August. Came to the Muslim mob attacked it last month.
:14:10. > :14:15.front door and they were calling for Jihad. They broke through the
:14:15. > :14:23.main door and they entered the monastery. They went everywhere
:14:23. > :14:32.here and they stole everything in the church and the building, and
:14:32. > :14:37.also they when they finished stealing they burned the place.
:14:37. > :14:41.Christians here say it was revenge for the Coptic church's support for
:14:41. > :14:45.the overthrow of the Islamist Government. Payback for the killing
:14:45. > :14:47.of hundreds of Islamists by the police. Relations between
:14:47. > :14:50.Christians and Muslims here have often been uneasy, but the
:14:50. > :14:54.upheavals of the last two years, both in Egypt and elsewhere in the
:14:54. > :15:00.Middle East have now led to a much deeper fracturing of society, that
:15:00. > :15:05.many feel won't easily be repaired. A horrifying video shows the body
:15:05. > :15:08.of one Christian from Dalga, a local barber, killed and later
:15:08. > :15:12.reported to be dragged through the streets behind a tractor. The
:15:12. > :15:16.victim's cousin, a lawyer, has now fled to Cairo, fearing the same
:15:16. > :15:22.fate. TRANSLATION: They attacked his
:15:22. > :15:26.house, he tried to defend himself. They killed him inside the house.
:15:27. > :15:31.They dragged his body out, they stole everything in his house and
:15:32. > :15:36.mine. For two month after the police were chased out in early
:15:36. > :15:42.July this dusty backwater between the Nile and the desert became an
:15:42. > :15:46.independent outpost of Islamism, or simply anarchy. Christians like
:15:46. > :15:51.this farm worker who fled with his family to live on a building site
:15:51. > :15:53.on a nearby village describe the climate of intimidation where they
:15:54. > :15:59.were robbed or forced to pay protection money.
:15:59. > :16:05.TRANSLATION: There was this coffee shop that opened at 11.00, all the
:16:05. > :16:09.thiefs and thugs went there and afterwards they roamed around,
:16:09. > :16:13.opening whatever doors they could, or jumping over walls. If they
:16:13. > :16:20.found any of your belongings they took them. Another refuge, also too
:16:20. > :16:26.scared to show his face says the criminals have political backing,
:16:26. > :16:30.he has no proof. TRANSLATION: The thugs in the town were supported by
:16:30. > :16:33.the Muslim Brotherhood, they were giving weapons and money, because
:16:33. > :16:38.it was in their interests to loot our houses and spread chaos.
:16:39. > :16:43.Now order has been restored. Troops and police recaptured Dalga with
:16:43. > :16:48.little resistance last week, making a series of arrests and
:16:48. > :16:53.confiscating guns. Their job is not over yet, suddenly
:16:53. > :16:58.there is an alert and we're off with police Special Forces on the
:16:58. > :17:03.trail of more armed arsonists or looters. They stake out a house.
:17:03. > :17:07.There is distant gunfire, and soon another suspect has been rounded up
:17:07. > :17:09.for questioning. The state's finally stamped its authority on
:17:09. > :17:13.for questioning. The state's this town, trying to prove there is
:17:13. > :17:18.nowhere in Egypt where its writ does not run. But the crackdown may
:17:19. > :17:24.simply provoke a violent insurgency that will rumble on for many years.
:17:24. > :17:30.Today though it is mainly donkey carts that are rumbling on. One man
:17:31. > :17:37.gives the four-fringeered salute that symbolised opposition to the
:17:37. > :17:41.military leaders. You will find no Islamist representatives here,
:17:41. > :17:42.those accused of inciting violence on Christians have fled or melted
:17:43. > :17:48.back into the crowd. And prominent on Christians have fled or melted
:17:48. > :17:53.Muslims here deny the Muslim Brotherhood or anyone else ordered
:17:53. > :17:57.the attacks. TRANSLATION: They were thieves stealing for their own
:17:57. > :18:04.benefits. They didn't have any other motive, no-one was supporting
:18:04. > :18:06.them. TRANSLATION: Some mosques called for Jihad at the Muslim
:18:06. > :18:10.Brotherhood protests in Cairo, because many people were killed
:18:10. > :18:15.there. But thieves and thugs here took that as a license to go and
:18:15. > :18:17.get what they wanted for themselves. So the message was misunderstood,
:18:17. > :18:23.get what they wanted for themselves. we have always lived in harmony
:18:23. > :18:31.with the Christians and we work together.
:18:31. > :18:35.# Mor circumstance -- Morsi The Islamist challenge
:18:35. > :18:40.terrifies many Christians, it hasn't been suppressed here but the
:18:40. > :18:44.Brotherhood has been banned. A movement that was the legitimate
:18:44. > :18:51.leaders of this country has been res duced to flash mobs in villages
:18:51. > :18:54.like Dalga, but they turn out nightly at the provincialal
:18:54. > :19:00.governor's house up the road they are taking noens chas. The security
:19:00. > :19:05.is as tight as in the 1990s, when the Mubarak dictatorships was here.
:19:05. > :19:09.I'm going to see the former police chief and now the governor, who
:19:09. > :19:12.believes now as then Egypt is facing an international terrorist
:19:12. > :19:18.conspiracy. We feel in Egypt there is this war against Egypt, the big
:19:18. > :19:24.organisation, outside, the strategy comes from outside, using local
:19:25. > :19:33.people by giving them money by giving them weapons. The fanatics
:19:33. > :19:44.use this area because there is no education, there is no money, there
:19:44. > :19:48.is no jobs. They try to push fanatic principles. They make big
:19:48. > :19:56.problems between some of the Christians and some of the Muslims.
:19:56. > :20:01.Christians, a third of the population in the province have
:20:01. > :20:06.long lived side-by-side with Muslim neighbours. Poverty unites them,
:20:06. > :20:10.illiteracy here is almost 50%. Even after weeks of living out of bags
:20:10. > :20:14.and baskets, the Christians who fled Dalga are refusing to go home.
:20:14. > :20:19.The police didn't protect them when the violence started here, and may
:20:19. > :20:22.not protect them now from a further round of revenge. TRANSLATION: The
:20:22. > :20:26.Government and the police are saying it is safe, but they will
:20:26. > :20:31.not stay in Dalga forever, and the gangs are saying as soon as they
:20:31. > :20:36.leave they will be retaliating. Back in Dalga, they say it will
:20:37. > :20:43.take years to rebuild the monastery, one of the dozens of churches
:20:43. > :20:47.attacked in Egypt in recent weeks. We had hoped to speak to the Muslim
:20:47. > :20:54.Brotherhood, but we can't do so tonight. I'm joined instead from
:20:54. > :21:02.Birmingham by my best who is chair of the United Cops in the UK. And
:21:02. > :21:08.the political editor of Middle East Magazine. How frightened are
:21:08. > :21:18.Christians in Egypt? Thank you Jeremy. The Christians had years of
:21:18. > :21:24.threats and intimidation, coercion and killing which went unpunished
:21:24. > :21:28.for years. There was a culture of impunity, and everyone is saying
:21:28. > :21:32.that Egypt is an Islamic country and he's the leader of the Islamic
:21:32. > :21:37.country. Since then the Islamists felt they had the upper hand. Then
:21:37. > :21:42.Hosni Mubarak came, during his time he kept a tight rein on the
:21:42. > :21:48.Islamists, but he overlooked their attacks on Christians. There is a
:21:48. > :21:52.long history of fear and intimidation. Really there is a
:21:52. > :21:59.culture of persecuting Christians by, I'm not saying by the whole of
:21:59. > :22:05.the Muslim population, of course not. There is even a new
:22:05. > :22:14.organisation in here in England which is the Egyptian Committee for
:22:14. > :22:18.the Defence of the Secular State, including Muslims and Christians,
:22:19. > :22:24.I'm part of it. I'm the deputy of the Union of the Coptic
:22:24. > :22:27.Organisation in Europe. There is actually the fear from the
:22:27. > :22:32.Organisation in Europe. There is Islamists coming from in societies
:22:32. > :22:38.where there is poverty and where there is unrest as well. Let me
:22:38. > :22:43.bring in my guest here, if you don't mind. Who do you think was
:22:43. > :22:49.behind these attacks, or is behind these continuing attacks? It is
:22:49. > :22:54.difficult when you collect evidence to pin it on an organisation. It is
:22:54. > :23:03.always easier to stand in court for individuals, like we had with the
:23:03. > :23:08.IRA and Sinn Fein. Circumstance standing evidence, the Muslim
:23:08. > :23:12.Brotherhood have not -- circumstantial evidence, the Muslim
:23:12. > :23:15.Brotherhood when they came out and they didn't renounce past
:23:15. > :23:22.terrorists or give an instruction to their followers saying we
:23:22. > :23:25.dislike that Morsi was overthrown, let's protest peacefully and hold a
:23:25. > :23:31.vigil. It is, although there is no let's protest peacefully and hold a
:23:31. > :23:37.hard evidence, but in one night you had hundreds of churches being
:23:37. > :23:44.burned down and attacked. Sow the organisation is there. Do you think
:23:44. > :23:49.looking back on it, it was wise for so many Coptic Christians in Egypt
:23:49. > :23:55.to support what was effectively a military coup against the Muslim
:23:55. > :24:02.Brotherhood? First of all this was not a military coup, this was a
:24:02. > :24:09.response to the popular demand. I shouldn't have used the word Coup",
:24:09. > :24:11.military intervention then, was it -- "coup", military intervention
:24:11. > :24:15.military intervention then, was it then. Was it unwise? The Muslim
:24:15. > :24:25.Brotherhood reduced the democracy to a pan tokcy. They used --
:24:25. > :24:28.panatocracy, they abused the ballot. Before that this was the last step
:24:29. > :24:37.in democracy, before that there should be a culture of equality,
:24:37. > :24:42.freedom, freedom of all freedom. Justice for all. No-one should be
:24:42. > :24:46.persecuting minorities because they are peaceful. The Christians of
:24:46. > :24:53.course they never started a fight or retaliated in a fight. They kept
:24:53. > :24:58.losing their property and families. Let me interrupt you then and bring
:24:58. > :25:03.in my guest. Can Egypt be surprised this is what has happened? It is
:25:03. > :25:11.not a surprise, I mean there is no surprise. I am a bit surprised they
:25:11. > :25:17.took it out on fellow Christians rather than...but then it goes into
:25:17. > :25:19.the pattern of thinking if you read the literature of the Muslim
:25:19. > :25:23.Brotherhood, or the meetings, tomorrow there is an interesting
:25:23. > :25:28.piece in the Egyptian Independent of a meeting of the global
:25:28. > :25:33.organisation that took part in Istanbul this week and in Lahore
:25:33. > :25:41.and Pakistan. Part of the thinking is if they have enough strife and
:25:41. > :25:47.sectarian conflict, then the world will pay attention and they hope
:25:47. > :25:53.for intervention, not quite Libyan- style, something like that, to put
:25:53. > :25:56.enough pressure on an American-led intervention to pressurise the
:25:56. > :26:01.interim Government and reinstate Morsi. Its not a coherent thinking
:26:01. > :26:09.but that is exchanged in meetings with the Muslim Brotherhood.
:26:09. > :26:13.Thank you very much both of you. In all the noise and heat generated
:26:13. > :26:17.by Ed Miliband's declaration yesterday that if he was Prime
:26:17. > :26:22.Minister he would cap energy prices. One thing seems to have escaped
:26:22. > :26:26.everybody's notice, he committed the party to giving the vote to 16-
:26:26. > :26:30.year-olds, they are already getting it in the Scotland's independence
:26:30. > :26:34.referendum, and in Argentina and Ecuador they can vote. Are
:26:34. > :26:41.teenagers more mature there, and if not why hasn't it happened here
:26:41. > :26:44.before. The first time British voters will have been to the polls
:26:44. > :26:50.on their way to school. 1969 and the last major change to our voting
:26:50. > :26:53.system. I shall certainly be voting Conservative.
:26:53. > :26:56.Harold Wilson cut the voting age from 21 just in time for the
:26:56. > :27:01.general election. Which he then went on to lose to Edward Heath.
:27:01. > :27:06.They are not satisfied. Now the Labour Party wants to have another
:27:06. > :27:10.pop at extending the franchise, buried in Ed Miliband's speech
:27:10. > :27:14.yesterday, plans to give all 16- year-olds their turn at the ballot
:27:14. > :27:19.box. Friends, friends, let's give a voice to these young people in our
:27:19. > :27:24.party. Let's give a voice to these young people in our democracy.
:27:24. > :27:29.Let's give the vote to 16 and 17- year-olds and make them part of our
:27:29. > :27:33.democracy. We're always told today's teenagers
:27:33. > :27:40.are an apolitical lot, distrustful of those suits in Westminster. So
:27:40. > :27:44.Newsnight took our own totally unscientific focus group across the
:27:44. > :27:48.road to the pool club. At 16 you can pay taxes, join the
:27:48. > :27:55.armed force, get married and have sex, if you can do all of this at
:27:55. > :27:57.16 why are you not vote? I don't necessarily think that 16-year-olds
:27:57. > :28:03.should have a vote, because they are not taught enough about
:28:04. > :28:10.politics. But this is a generation barely alive in the year 2000, what
:28:10. > :28:13.do they know and what do they want from the Government. This is going
:28:13. > :28:17.to be way more fun I promise than a game of pool. What we have here in
:28:17. > :28:21.front of us is a very rough idea about the amount the Government
:28:21. > :28:25.spends. What we want you to do is take these chips and work out if
:28:25. > :28:28.this is the way as 16 and 17-year- olds you would like to see
:28:28. > :28:32.Government money spent, or if there is a better way of spending
:28:32. > :28:40.Government money. The only thing we can cut and agree on would be
:28:40. > :28:44.benefits, don't you think so? No. No. Benefits affects thousands of
:28:44. > :28:49.people. One quick question, how much benefits would we cut and
:28:49. > :28:53.where to put it. Not enough, we have to contribute more to housing.
:28:53. > :28:56.Pensions are you going to use the healthcare any way, pensioners are
:28:56. > :29:02.more likely to be using the healthcare than us any way. Exactly.
:29:02. > :29:05.If you work for 60 years in the plek sector and you work day in day
:29:05. > :29:10.out, you shouldn't have that money cut, you are entitled to that
:29:10. > :29:14.amount of money. Pensions have been one of the simple areas not cut,
:29:14. > :29:18.and I'm actually, sorry, I'm fuming for the simple fact that pensions
:29:18. > :29:25.do need to get some sort of cuts on it. OK, OK. You will have to all
:29:26. > :29:30.stop talking now. Can I have a bit of quiet, your time is totally up.
:29:30. > :29:33.You guys have been brilliant, massive disagreement, I think it is
:29:33. > :29:37.fair to say between you all. We are going to have to take a vote on it
:29:37. > :29:41.and do it democratically. Who thinks money can come out of the
:29:41. > :29:47.health budget? No. That is, benefits who round here thinks
:29:47. > :29:55.benefits could be cut. So all of you, does no-one think benefits
:29:55. > :30:01.shutd be protected. -- should be protected? I do. That is enough? Is
:30:01. > :30:10.that an agreement. Where is it going? Health and education.
:30:10. > :30:14.Housing? National debt, some to pay back the national debt. There we go,
:30:14. > :30:19.who thinks money could come out of education anyone think that? No way.
:30:19. > :30:25.Who thinks money could come out of defence? Yes. Take it all. We need
:30:25. > :30:35.one gun. Where does this go? Education, health, housing. The
:30:35. > :30:43.final one, who round here thinks money could be cut out of pension,
:30:43. > :30:49.four of you. No-one else? Five don't think it should be cut. What
:30:49. > :30:58.is the deciding vote? Of course. Money is coming out of pensions,
:30:58. > :31:05.only just. Not that much. Too much? That much. Less than that.
:31:05. > :31:15.No, no, no. Take it back, take it back. This is coming out of your
:31:15. > :31:20.gran and granddad's purse. Where is it going? More on housing and
:31:20. > :31:23.health. That's fine. Education gets it and one payback for the national
:31:23. > :31:30.debt. You have just solved our deficit
:31:30. > :31:33.problem, well done guys! But it is one thing to get teenagers like
:31:33. > :31:37.this interested in politics, another to get them to the ballot
:31:37. > :31:40.box. They might be angry, they might be passionate, but that
:31:40. > :31:47.doesn't mean that given the chance they would bother to vote. Now to
:31:47. > :31:55.the best known female architect in the world, in a traditionally male-
:31:55. > :31:58.dominated profession, Zaha Hadid stands out. She designed the
:31:58. > :32:02.Aquatic Centre for the Olympics. Her buildings are mainly abroad
:32:02. > :32:06.which tells us something about Britain. Her first in central
:32:06. > :32:13.London opened today a small yet remarkable addition to a Napoleonic
:32:13. > :32:18.addition to the Serpentine. I guess it is a reasonable punt that it
:32:18. > :32:29.would gave Prince Charles nightmares. I went to see her
:32:29. > :32:34.latest creation this afternoon. There is no mistaking her buildings.
:32:34. > :32:42.They are structures which sometimes hardly seem like structures at all.
:32:42. > :32:46.My early work was influenced by the Russian avant-garde, the residue of
:32:46. > :33:01.that work was how to liberate ourselves from certain things to do
:33:01. > :33:03.with gravity. As an architect you have to have
:33:03. > :33:09.with gravity. some idea about structure. The cafe
:33:09. > :33:15.at the Serpentine Calgary is tiny in comparison with some other build
:33:15. > :33:21.-- gall gree, is tiny -- gallery, is tiny compared to her buildings,
:33:21. > :33:24.but it is definitely her's? What will people say about the gallery?
:33:24. > :33:34.I don't know, I think it is very important to invest in the public
:33:35. > :33:39.domain. For people to enjoy t it is nice to be in the park with
:33:39. > :33:43.transparency with a light roof. I thought it was extraordinary. I'med
:33:43. > :33:48.glad. Do you think in this country we have become more sophisticated
:33:48. > :33:50.about architecture? I think there is more sophisticated opinions
:33:51. > :33:55.about architecture, but I don't think the buildings are more
:33:55. > :34:00.sophisticated. There are some. There are at least, there are some
:34:00. > :34:05.towers you know, some high rise which you know 20 years ago it
:34:05. > :34:12.would have been impossible. And so maybe that will, that investment
:34:12. > :34:16.would allow for new models to be developed. But it is interesting
:34:16. > :34:20.isn't it the way in which Prince Charles, for example, can tap into
:34:20. > :34:25.what he knows to be an instinctive feeling among very many people in
:34:25. > :34:28.the street that oh modern architecture, it is horrible? I
:34:28. > :34:34.don't think people in the street feel that way. I think that the
:34:34. > :34:37.modernity, and the modernism they know is based on what they have
:34:37. > :34:43.here, which was never a great example. There is some good
:34:43. > :34:47.buildings done by Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, others what I call
:34:47. > :34:55.high-tech of that period very important buildings. Michael
:34:55. > :35:00.Hopkins, people like that. I think that they respond to these
:35:00. > :35:05.buildings which were done post-war, very quickly, social housing, which
:35:05. > :35:09.was done you know not forgetting that time there were slum, this
:35:09. > :35:14.there were people whose houses were bomb, they had to build quite fast
:35:14. > :35:19.and they responded in that way. This is your first building in
:35:19. > :35:22.central London? It is. You had this reputation for years and years for
:35:22. > :35:26.designing buildings that weren't built. What was that like? It was
:35:26. > :35:32.really not very nice. Because I always thought they were in the
:35:32. > :35:37.realm of possibility. I think that is one of the reasons I persevered
:35:37. > :35:42.and the people with me in the office obviously had amazing belief
:35:42. > :35:47.toe stick it out. Because it was very hard times. In the 1990s Zaha
:35:47. > :35:54.Hadid won the commission to design the Cardiff Bay Opera House, but
:35:54. > :35:59.local politicians clocked it amid a predictable chorus from media
:35:59. > :36:07.yahoos that her work was elitist. That was very bad. You know I have
:36:07. > :36:10.to think about these things in a positive way. There was nothing
:36:10. > :36:14.positive about it. The only positive thing about it is it made
:36:14. > :36:21.people, who didn't know me or my work have an opinion. Good or bad.
:36:21. > :36:27.And enormous support. People in the street, I mean you know, I still
:36:27. > :36:30.have people coming to me in restaurants saying, that was a
:36:30. > :36:34.terrible moment. If they are Welsh they are always apologising. One of
:36:34. > :36:43.her more controversial projects opened this month in Azerbaijan.
:36:43. > :36:46.The Haydar Cultural Centre is a remarkable build, but it is
:36:46. > :36:51.dedicated to the personality cult of the autocrat who turned the
:36:51. > :36:58.country into a family business. Building or designing buildings
:36:58. > :37:04.which glorify regimes which are unsympathetic, the famous one is
:37:04. > :37:09.the Cultural Centre in Baku, which glorfies a tyrant? It is a cultural
:37:09. > :37:14.centre and open to the public, you know, people name libraries after
:37:14. > :37:18.centre and open to the public, you American Presidents. You are not
:37:18. > :37:26.compare? Not comparing them but I just think that, I think you have
:37:26. > :37:33.to be very strategic about whether you deprive the public as well from
:37:33. > :37:37.the public domain or you know, I'm not doing a private house for
:37:37. > :37:43.everybody, I'm doing a public building with a concert hall or
:37:43. > :37:46.library, museum. But it is in honour of a man with the most
:37:46. > :37:52.atrocious human rights record? With his name, yes. I can't change that.
:37:52. > :37:56.You could choose not to build it? Well if it was a private house
:37:56. > :37:58.somewhere like that it is a problem. But I will choose for example I
:37:58. > :38:12.think it is more contentious to But I will choose for example I
:38:12. > :38:18.build a prison anywhere. I was reading about Shelter to
:38:18. > :38:21.build nice housing, good work space. Good public buildings, because I
:38:21. > :38:24.build nice housing, good work space. think that not everybody in the
:38:24. > :38:27.world has the privilege of travelling and seeing extraordinary
:38:27. > :38:31.things and I think it is very important to make things like that
:38:31. > :38:35.and more immediately in their domain. Do you think as a nation we
:38:35. > :38:40.are more receptive to that idea now than we used to be? I don't think
:38:40. > :38:47.so. You don't? No. I think that the majority of work in the UK is
:38:47. > :38:49.corporate. And it is very bad, America was build on amazing
:38:49. > :38:56.corporate buildings. Office towers in New York and Chicago. So you can
:38:56. > :39:02.do great things here as well. And housing, that dilemma is different.
:39:02. > :39:06.You are relying on your no-how of the client, the developer, it has a
:39:06. > :39:08.-- know-how of the client, the developer, it has a different
:39:08. > :39:11.-- know-how of the client, the dynamic. It is a jolly building,
:39:11. > :39:15.you should go. The United States has won the America's Cup, the
:39:15. > :39:19.competition for one of the very oldest sporting trophies burst into
:39:19. > :39:24.life yesterday as the United States team came storming back after a
:39:24. > :39:31.series of defeats in which the New Zealanders had made their catamaran
:39:31. > :39:36.look like a Lyle low with a serious -- lilo with a serious puncture.
:39:36. > :39:41.This sort of racing is like tearing up £50 notes while standing fully
:39:41. > :39:46.clothed under a full shower. Our reporter who has the slob's job of
:39:46. > :39:50.writing what he has been watching on the telly with those in the
:39:50. > :39:56.Guardian, shares it interest, he will explain why. Remember him?
:39:56. > :40:01.Four-times Olympic Chancellor I don't know, Ben Ainslie, Sir Ben
:40:01. > :40:06.Ainslie. Done it all, knighted by the age of 36, probably smoking his
:40:06. > :40:10.pipe and telling stories by the fire now, right? Wrong. He has been
:40:10. > :40:14.involved in one of the most remarkable sporting turn arounds
:40:14. > :40:19.since Liverpool won the Champions League in 2005. Nine days ago or
:40:19. > :40:25.kal team USA were 7-1 down to League in 2005. Nine days ago or
:40:25. > :40:30.Emirates team New Zealand. The Kiwis needed to win one more race
:40:30. > :40:35.and they would go home with the America's Cup, the biggest prize in
:40:35. > :40:47.sail. Enter our Ben, brought in by the or kal team as tactition. --
:40:47. > :40:52.They found another gear, outwigt the Kiwis and beating the Kiwis. It
:40:52. > :40:58.is a game of chess on a boat, and the Kiwis and beating the Kiwis. It
:40:58. > :41:02.Ben has learned how to be a grand chess master. He has an uncanny
:41:02. > :41:10.ability to look at the racecourse and opposition and know how to put
:41:10. > :41:15.them away. The America's Cup hasn't always been like this. It started
:41:15. > :41:20.in 1851 as a race around the Isle of Wight. Since when it hasn't
:41:20. > :41:25.bothered the public conscience too much, an alleged activity for toffs
:41:25. > :41:29.with an awful lot of money. Too often it was about bending the
:41:29. > :41:32.rules than the wave, when it made it out of the courtroom and on to
:41:32. > :41:38.the waves it was slow and boring and no-one had a clue what was
:41:38. > :41:43.going on. It is still about rich men indulging in their hoby, a
:41:43. > :41:50.campaign is upwards of $100 million. But it has been good to watch. Men
:41:50. > :41:54.in helmets drive catamarans with foils, flying above the water on a
:41:54. > :42:02.racecourse at above 50 miles an hour. That is very, very fast for a
:42:03. > :42:08.sailing boat. Now the boats are equallys, the race is tight and
:42:08. > :42:13.short, and the setting, San Francisco bay is spectacular. For
:42:13. > :42:20.the first time ever sailing is a spectacular sport. Formula One but
:42:20. > :42:28.wet? Maybe. Joining us now is the BB cl.'s California correspond --
:42:28. > :42:33.BBC's California correspondent, was it exciting? I'm not a man normally
:42:33. > :42:37.watching a lot of yacht racing, but the fact it is right here in the
:42:37. > :42:44.bay, the speed of the boats, the way they lift up in the hydrofoils
:42:44. > :42:49.and going incredible speeds, 45 miles an hour plus. Very close
:42:50. > :42:54.racing, all the reasons explain that, it is normally out to sea,
:42:54. > :42:59.the boats have cameras all over them, TV has been involved. You can
:42:59. > :43:05.hear the yachtsmen talking to each other about tactic, here Ben
:43:05. > :43:10.Ainslie working with the skipper of the team USA, to talk about the
:43:10. > :43:15.race and how it will go well for them. We are waiting for Team USA
:43:15. > :43:18.to arrive and Team New Zealand is here already. The presentation will
:43:18. > :43:24.be made in the next few minutes. Ben Ainslie took a job as tactition,
:43:24. > :43:32.I have forgotten his title. How much credit is he being given for
:43:32. > :43:36.the win? He has been given a lot of credit but not as much as the Brits
:43:36. > :43:39.want to give him. They did a lot of tweaks to the boat, they made a
:43:39. > :43:42.clear decision they were going to change strategy, that is when they
:43:42. > :43:46.brought Ben Ainslie in. He was a skipper on the second boat, he was
:43:46. > :43:51.here basically to race, to train, to get them up to speed. He was
:43:51. > :43:54.never expected actually race on the yacht itself. Bringing him in was
:43:54. > :43:57.like having three quarter back, yacht itself. Bringing him in was
:43:58. > :43:59.they said, on the team. Three skippers, very experienced guys all
:43:59. > :44:04.working to the. That is what a lot skippers, very experienced guys all
:44:04. > :44:09.of people are saying made a big difference. Wait that they build up
:44:09. > :44:13.their speed, get -- the way that they built up their speed, getting
:44:13. > :44:17.faster and faster. It is an amazing win, everyone was writing off the
:44:17. > :44:21.US, but you have to feel for the Kiwis, so close but so far.
:44:21. > :44:22.Thank you,en joy the celebrations. Some of tomorrow morning's front
:44:22. > :45:22.pages now. For the past two years a group of
:45:22. > :45:26.20 photographers have tried to capture the most spectacular images
:45:26. > :45:27.of British wildlife, here is some of what they managed to get, good
:45:27. > :45:28.night.