:00:06. > :00:14.Whose version of press regulation will get the nod? The one the press
:00:14. > :00:18.wants or the one Parliament wants? We have learned the press's prose
:00:18. > :00:22.posals for outside regulation have been binned. The newspapers are on a
:00:22. > :00:27.collision course with politicians. Over 400 dead British soldiers and
:00:27. > :00:37.over £30 billion spent and countless civilians killed.
:00:37. > :00:40.What has the West achieved in our 12 year war in Afghanistan? The Afghan
:00:40. > :00:41.president gives Newsnight his verdict The world's biggest
:00:41. > :00:44.container ship. It cost Afghanistan a lot of
:00:44. > :00:52.suffering and a lot of loss of life. And no gains because the country is
:00:52. > :00:55.not secure. 83-year-old Sally Lubanov has not
:00:55. > :01:00.left her home for the last nine months. We bring her into the studio
:01:00. > :01:03.to face the minister in charge of her care.
:01:03. > :01:09.And the world's biggest container ship, if you stacked up its cargo,
:01:09. > :01:15.would reach into orbit, but what's the point? There is no port in North
:01:15. > :01:25.America could accommodate this ship, so how can it make economic sense?
:01:25. > :01:30.A dramatic development tonight on an issue that has at the its heart the
:01:30. > :01:34.freedom and the responsibilities of the press. We have learnt of a move
:01:34. > :01:38.that he emerged from the discussions within the group will decide the
:01:38. > :01:43.future of press regulation later this week. Senior Conservatives and
:01:43. > :01:47.Lib Dem figures have rejected the press's favoured solution, their
:01:47. > :01:52.alternative version of a charter. The decision looks set to spark
:01:52. > :01:57.confrontation between the two sides on a complex and fractious issue.
:01:57. > :02:02.Allegra Stratton has brought us the story and joins us now. The
:02:02. > :02:08.presenter of the Media Show is here too. Let's start at the beginning
:02:08. > :02:14.because this is complicated. Talk us through what we have learned today?
:02:14. > :02:19.It has been difficult journalism. A subcommittee of the Privy Council
:02:19. > :02:22.met today. This was six to eight Cabinet Ministers from Conservative
:02:22. > :02:27.and Liberal Democrat side of the coalition and what they were looking
:02:27. > :02:31.at was the newspapers, the press's own position on what they felt was a
:02:31. > :02:43.kind of media regulation that they could deal with and we have winkled
:02:43. > :02:46.it out. The privy council is answerable to the Queen. All my
:02:46. > :02:50.sources didn't want to talk to me about this. We think we have got
:02:50. > :02:56.somewhere. They have rejected it. They have said that what the press
:02:56. > :03:00.wants, does not, in the words of one senior source, it doesn't enshrine
:03:00. > :03:04.independence. The people on this new regulatory body that the press want,
:03:04. > :03:06.as opposed to the one that the Government and some other people
:03:06. > :03:13.want, it doesn't have independence in it. So it wouldn't really be much
:03:13. > :03:16.of a regulatory body. So they have had to reject it. Some of the quotes
:03:16. > :03:20.we have. It has to be properly independent. That's what Lord
:03:20. > :03:27.Leveson wanted. What they are coming up doesn't meet the test. Some of
:03:27. > :03:31.this doesn't come as a surprise for people, but it is, we expected this
:03:31. > :03:35.meeting this week and so we will hear from newspapers how they are
:03:35. > :03:40.going to react. And we are expecting this to be a major blow for the
:03:40. > :03:43.newspapers. The Leveson report was coming up to a year ago. Fill in the
:03:43. > :03:48.background. Because this is something we talk about, but it
:03:48. > :03:51.leaves a lot of people far behind. What doesn't leave people far behind
:03:51. > :03:54.is the principle of free speech in this country. It is something that
:03:54. > :03:57.many people feel is about being British. It is something that many
:03:57. > :04:02.other countries have said with horror, I can't believe Britain
:04:02. > :04:07.would move to this. A lot of people think about it like that. I don't
:04:07. > :04:11.think it is true to say this is alien from people's lives when they
:04:11. > :04:17.are sitting in their sitting room. The technical nature of it is. What
:04:17. > :04:21.people should take home from this, all of Her Majesty's newspapers do
:04:21. > :04:25.not want this. All of them will be upset this evening. All of them feel
:04:25. > :04:29.this is a process, Steve will tell us more, it is a process that's
:04:29. > :04:35.supposed to be about transparency and they have been kept in the dark.
:04:35. > :04:38.We have this Privy Council. There will be ranker, but lots of
:04:38. > :04:43.principle at stake. The words that David Cameron used
:04:43. > :04:49.last week, does it pass the Dowler test? Talking about the mistreated
:04:49. > :04:53.family of Milly Dowler. What do you think the response from the industry
:04:53. > :05:01.will be to this, Steve? Look, I think, in terms of what is going on
:05:01. > :05:06.down the Dog and Duck, there is the Dowlers and the McCanns and the
:05:06. > :05:10.shocking treatment handed out to Christopher Jefferies. The press is
:05:10. > :05:13.in the dock really. So where do the press feel now? They feel the
:05:13. > :05:18.process has been far from transparent. They are, I think,
:05:18. > :05:22.people that I have spoken to are, furious and are now considering
:05:22. > :05:26.whether there might be a legal challenge to this decision by the
:05:26. > :05:30.committee, the Privy Council. The reason they had to do this, the
:05:30. > :05:34.privy council's own rules say if there is more than one proposed
:05:34. > :05:38.charter on the same subject, neither can be given effect because it draws
:05:38. > :05:42.the Queen into a matter of public controversy. So in general, and
:05:43. > :05:46.previous things that the Privy Council deals worthwhile Royal
:05:46. > :05:52.Charters are uncontroversial. There is also talk in some quarters
:05:52. > :05:57.amongst the press that the Royal Household might now obstruct the
:05:57. > :06:01.progress of the cross party charter because it is so controversial. The
:06:01. > :06:06.last thing they want is the Queen to put her name and her stamp on
:06:06. > :06:11.something which is going to be ranker are yous for a long time.
:06:11. > :06:15.What we are understanding tonight is the solution, the press offered if
:06:15. > :06:21.you like, has not been deemed acceptable? Yes, it has been
:06:21. > :06:24.rejected. What will they do in practical terms? They can consider a
:06:24. > :06:27.legal challenge to the process. I am not a lawyer, but I have been
:06:27. > :06:32.talking to lawyers and nobody knows how you do this. They could consider
:06:32. > :06:38.a legal challenge or choose to go along with it or this is most
:06:38. > :06:45.likely, but the thing is that this is all about establishing a body to
:06:45. > :06:49.give recognition to the new self regulator that Lord Leveson said
:06:49. > :06:53.should exist. He said there is an outrage, there is a committee, there
:06:53. > :06:56.is a decision to sort the press out. Nothing happens. There is a
:06:56. > :07:01.committee, there is a decision to sort it out. To stop this happening,
:07:01. > :07:06.we will put in place a recognition system. Put this in context for us.
:07:06. > :07:09.Because we have had The Mail and Daily Mail on the programme last
:07:09. > :07:14.week and we have had the row with the Labour and Ed Miliband, where
:07:15. > :07:21.does this sit-in that? In terms of timing, you saw the impact of the
:07:21. > :07:27.Miliband thing. Look what is coming. On 28th October, the first of the
:07:27. > :07:33.big trial, the phone hacking trial starts, Andy Coulson and Rebekah
:07:33. > :07:38.Brooks. That won't be pretty. Trials will run on phone hacking and other
:07:38. > :07:44.things well up to the next election. Once we get into that process, the
:07:44. > :07:46.things well up to the next election. atmospherics for the press will be
:07:46. > :07:50.dreadful. If you were a press tactician you might think better of
:07:50. > :07:53.trying to do a deal sooner rather than later.
:07:53. > :07:57.We will return to this story when we have more reaction to it.
:07:57. > :08:03.Should the Taliban have a place at the centre of a future Afghan
:08:03. > :08:07.Government? The question would have seen absurd five years ago. Today,
:08:07. > :08:11.Hamid Karzai told this programme he was talking to the Taliban and would
:08:11. > :08:14.welcome them into any power sharing deal, including direct Government
:08:14. > :08:21.jobs. The Americans stated that they will not fight the Taliban anymore.
:08:21. > :08:29.Only Al-Qaeda. Has the enemy's enemy now become a friend? And where does
:08:29. > :08:36.that he leave the reasons we were given for fighting in that country?
:08:36. > :08:44.Afghanistan has come a long way from 2001. From the almost premodern days
:08:44. > :08:49.of the Taliban. But it cost hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of
:08:49. > :08:56.thousands killed and injured. And as the Afghans argue with Americans
:08:56. > :08:59.about a security agreement, to define post-war relations, its
:08:59. > :09:03.president continues to be an ally one day and an opponent the next.
:09:03. > :09:07.Hamid Karzai had troubled relationships with his western
:09:07. > :09:15.backers. Whether fighting the Taliban or nati building, he often
:09:15. > :09:20.had different objectives. What does he really think about the United
:09:20. > :09:23.States? The Taliban, of Britain's war in Helmand province? Is he
:09:23. > :09:29.bothered by the levels of corruption here? Who are by women's rights? In
:09:29. > :09:33.one of his last major interviews, Hamid Karzai has agreed to speak to
:09:33. > :09:37.Newsnight. There is no doubt that the country
:09:37. > :09:43.has grown, and developed and come a long way in the last 12 years. Why
:09:43. > :09:50.then do it the Americans, President Obama, call you an unreliable,
:09:50. > :09:56.ineffective partner? Because where we want us to go along, we don't go
:09:56. > :10:00.along. They want us to keep silent when civilians are killed. We will
:10:00. > :10:03.not. We cannot. Isn't it the case that your
:10:03. > :10:09.relationship with President Bush was better than your relationship with
:10:09. > :10:14.Obama? His main focus has been the exit strategy? How has that been for
:10:14. > :10:20.you? I had a good relationship with President Bush and those beginning
:10:20. > :10:27.years, there was not much difference of opinion between us. The worsening
:10:27. > :10:35.of relations began actually in 2005 where we saw the first incidents of
:10:35. > :10:40.civilian casualties, where we saw that the War on Terror was not
:10:41. > :10:44.conducted where it should have been, which was in the sanctuaries, in the
:10:44. > :10:46.trading grounds beyond Afghanistan rather than that, the US and NATO
:10:46. > :10:52.forces were conducting operations in rather than that, the US and NATO
:10:52. > :10:53.Afghan villages, causing injuries to hundreds of Afghan people.
:10:53. > :10:59.Are you talking to the Taliban? Yes, hundreds of Afghan people.
:10:59. > :11:02.we are. We have our whole system engaged in several direction to
:11:02. > :11:06.bring stability and peace to Afghanistan.
:11:06. > :11:10.Is the goal to bring them into some kind of power sharing deal in
:11:10. > :11:16.Government? Absolutely. They are Afghans. Where the Afghan president,
:11:16. > :11:26.where the Afghan Government can appoint the Taliban to a Government
:11:26. > :11:30.job, we will do that. But when it is the Afghan people appointing people
:11:30. > :11:37.through elections then the Taliban should come and participate in
:11:37. > :11:40.elections. To clarify this, as Afghans, they are welcome to the
:11:40. > :11:46.Afghan Government like all other Afghans, yes. As Afghans, they are
:11:46. > :11:50.welcome to participate in elections. A British audience or an American
:11:50. > :11:55.audience watching this would wonder what was this for then? 12 years of
:11:55. > :11:58.fighting, lives lost and the Taliban will walk in and be part of
:11:58. > :12:04.Government? Well, the Americans have told us themselves in Washington in
:12:04. > :12:09.my last visit that the Taliban are not their enemies. That they will
:12:09. > :12:14.not fight the Taliban anymore. What are you discussing with the
:12:14. > :12:18.Taliban? What's up for negotiation? What's at stake? If the Taliban have
:12:18. > :12:22.reasons for which they cannot come, they must spell it out. If it is the
:12:23. > :12:28.Afghan constitution, they must come and talk to us and allow the Afghan
:12:28. > :12:31.people and through the mechanisms that we have to amend the
:12:31. > :12:37.constitution. The gains that women made in this
:12:37. > :12:42.country are tenuous, surely by bringing the Taliban back, you are
:12:42. > :12:46.compromising those gains? This country needs to have peace. You
:12:46. > :12:50.know where they stand with women's rights. Are you willing to sacrifice
:12:50. > :12:56.women's rights? I am willing to stand for anything that would bring
:12:56. > :13:01.peace to Afghanistan and through that, to promote the cause of the
:13:01. > :13:04.Afghan woman better. There is no doubt about that, even
:13:05. > :13:09.if the Taliban come, that will not end. That will not slow down.
:13:09. > :13:15.So women in Afghanistan should not have the fear of a return of the
:13:15. > :13:18.Taliban? None at all. None. The bilateral security agreement, Mr
:13:18. > :13:23.President, let's talk about that. That defines the US and
:13:23. > :13:28.Afghanistan's relationship beyond withdrawal and if you push too hard,
:13:28. > :13:34.they may not stay. Is that something that worries you? Well, if the
:13:34. > :13:40.agreement doesn't suit us then, of course, they can leave. The
:13:40. > :13:48.agreement has to suit Afghanistan's interests and purposes. If it
:13:48. > :13:52.doesn't suit us, and if it doesn't suit them, we will go our separate
:13:52. > :13:55.ways. If this agreement does not provide Afghanistan with peace and
:13:55. > :14:01.security, the Afghans will not want it. That's very clear. Britain has
:14:01. > :14:07.made a massive contribution already. Can you tell the British public, you
:14:07. > :14:11.know, what all their sacrifices were force? They don't understand why
:14:11. > :14:15.they are still here? All the Prime Ministers that came were in office
:14:16. > :14:20.in the past 12 years have clearly staitds that they are here in
:14:20. > :14:23.Afghanistan in order to provide security to the West and in order to
:14:23. > :14:33.prevent terrorism from reaching the West and in order to fight extremism
:14:33. > :14:36.here. How much of that has been achieved is something that the
:14:36. > :14:38.British Government can answer alone. Can you assess the criticism and
:14:38. > :14:41.failings that were experienced in Can you assess the criticism and
:14:42. > :14:49.Helmand province? It is not only Britain. On security front, the
:14:49. > :14:55.entire NATO exercise was one that caused Afghanistan a lot of
:14:55. > :15:02.suffering. And a lot of loss of life. And no gains because the
:15:02. > :15:05.country is not secure. I'm not happy to say that, well, there is partial
:15:05. > :15:15.security. That's not what we are seeking. What we wanted was absolute
:15:15. > :15:18.security and a clear cut against terrorism.
:15:18. > :15:21.Some people would say that your legacy has been tainted by the
:15:21. > :15:26.corruption in this country. That Afghanistan is the third most
:15:26. > :15:31.corrupt country in the world. Is that a legacy you want to leave
:15:31. > :15:37.behind? No, not at all, of course. Se. Our Government is weak and
:15:37. > :15:44.ineffective in comparison to other governments. We have just begun. But
:15:44. > :15:47.the big corruption, the hundreds of millions of dollars of corruption,
:15:47. > :15:52.it was not Afghan. Now everybody millions of dollars of corruption,
:15:53. > :16:00.knows that. It was foreign. The contracts. The sub contracts. The
:16:00. > :16:08.blind contracts given to people. Money thrown around to buy
:16:08. > :16:11.loyalties. Money thrown around to buy submissiveness of Afghan
:16:11. > :16:15.Government officials to policies and designs that the Afghans would not
:16:15. > :16:17.have agreed to. That was the major part of corruption.
:16:17. > :16:26.Finally, are you concerned about your safety when you leave office?
:16:26. > :16:31.Not at all, no. No. I will be safe. President Karzai, thank you very
:16:31. > :16:35.much for your time. Thank you. Coming up:
:16:35. > :16:41.We hear from the global superstar, just signed up by the BBC.
:16:41. > :16:44.. Ago today, the Chairman of RBS made
:16:44. > :16:48.a phone call to the heart of Government. His bank, he told the
:16:48. > :16:53.Chancellor, Alistair Darling, would seize to exist within hours. The
:16:53. > :16:58.call prompted a flood of lek quitity to -- lick quite to prop up the
:16:58. > :17:00.dying organisation. Their aim was to keep it going until the close of the
:17:00. > :17:03.financial day. Five years on, where keep it going until the close of the
:17:03. > :17:09.are we? What lessons have we learned? We will ask Alistair
:17:09. > :17:10.Darling, first Iain Martin takes us through the critical hours of
:17:10. > :17:26.crisis. The Ritz Hotel in Central London. In
:17:26. > :17:31.the autumn of 2008, while the Savoy was shut for repair, this is where
:17:32. > :17:36.Sir Fred Goodwin stayed when he was in town.
:17:36. > :17:42.Shortly after 8am, having finished breakfast, Goodwin walked down these
:17:42. > :17:46.steps and got into his chauffeur driven Mercedes. He had an
:17:46. > :17:52.appointment on the other side of town. Talking to o fellow bankers.
:17:53. > :17:55.It was the beginning of an extraordinary day which would send
:17:55. > :18:07.shockwaves through the entire British economy.
:18:07. > :18:09.While Goodwin made his 8.45am presentation about the challenges
:18:09. > :18:11.facing the Royal Bank of Scotland, those in the audience could see on
:18:11. > :18:14.facing the Royal Bank of Scotland, their mobile phones what was
:18:14. > :18:19.happening as the markets opened. The RBS share price was collapsing. The
:18:20. > :18:23.first question from the floor caused the colour to drain from Goodwin's
:18:23. > :18:28.face. Did he know in the half-hour he had been on his feet talking,
:18:28. > :18:34.RBS's share price had been fallen by 25%?
:18:34. > :18:37.The sell off that morning was so frenetic the authorities at the
:18:37. > :18:43.London Stock Exchange suspended trading in RBS shares twice. The
:18:43. > :18:47.collapse in share price reflected reality. For months RBS had been
:18:47. > :18:56.leaking money as customers and investors rushed to take their cash
:18:56. > :19:01.out of -- troubled bank full of toxic assets. Now, with many fearing
:19:01. > :19:02.RBS was about to go bust, no one would lend the bank the tens of
:19:02. > :19:06.billions of pounds it needed to would lend the bank the tens of
:19:06. > :19:11.carry on functioning. Goodwin and his colleagues had built RBS into
:19:11. > :19:16.the world's biggest bank and here it was coming crashing down. In RBS's
:19:16. > :19:22.offices in London that day, there was panic. As good win raced across
:19:22. > :19:23.town, the bank's chairman called Gordon Brown to beg for Government
:19:23. > :19:27.help. He told the Chancellor, Gordon Brown to beg for Government
:19:27. > :19:33.Alistair Darling, that RBS could only keep going for a couple of
:19:33. > :19:41.hours. A desperate Chief Executive tried to calm the Chancellor. Inside
:19:41. > :19:45.the Treasury that often, they were scramling to prevent the meltdown of
:19:45. > :19:48.the financial system. For weeks, worried ministers and officials had
:19:48. > :19:53.been working out plans to bail out the banks, to pump tens of billions
:19:53. > :19:58.of new capital into RBS and the others. It was time to put the plans
:19:58. > :20:01.into action. Shortly after 7pm, Fred Goodwin and
:20:02. > :20:04.into action. the Chief Executives of Britain's
:20:04. > :20:09.other banks filed into Alistair Darling's office here at the
:20:09. > :20:19.Treasury. After hours of fractious talks, by 3am, they had a deal. Lord
:20:19. > :20:24.Myners who had been fired by Fred the sh Shred said, " You are in a
:20:24. > :20:31.bit of trouble." The next morning, on the 8th October, Brown and
:20:31. > :20:35.Darling held a press conference in Downing Street. Britain's reckless
:20:35. > :20:38.banks, so celebrated by the politicians into the good times
:20:38. > :20:43.would need £50 billion of taxpayer cash.
:20:43. > :20:48.It turned out to be even more than that. And the taxpayer would end up
:20:48. > :20:53.owning 82% of RBS. The crisis triggered the worst downturn in
:20:53. > :20:56.seven decades and a slide in living stansds that continues to this day.
:20:56. > :21:02.Boom and bust had not been abolished after all. How had it come to this?
:21:02. > :21:09.Why did the financial crisis hit Britain so hard? In 1960, the
:21:09. > :21:18.combined balance sheets of the UK's 16 clearing banks totalled £8
:21:18. > :21:27.billion. A sum equivalent to 32% of UK GDP. By 2000, it was 1.4 trillion
:21:27. > :21:33.and 143% of GDP. Around the time of the crisises is, the UK clearing
:21:33. > :21:39.banks had total assets of .24 trillion, that was 450% of UK GDP.
:21:39. > :21:43.There were fewer British banks and they had got bigger with RBS, the
:21:43. > :21:45.biggest of the lot. For Britain, having taken a large gamble on
:21:45. > :21:50.growing its banking industry, the having taken a large gamble on
:21:50. > :21:54.rescue was always going to be painful if something went wrong.
:21:54. > :21:59.Five years on, it is worth asking how much has really changed? Has our
:21:59. > :22:05.banking system been fixed? A bit. Are we any safer? A little. With
:22:05. > :22:09.property schemes such as help to buy popular again, could we be heading
:22:09. > :22:14.for another banking crisis? Don't bet against it.
:22:14. > :22:17.Well, that was Iain Martin. Well, I spoke to Alistair Darling and I
:22:18. > :22:21.asked him what this day meant to him now? Well, I will always remember
:22:21. > :22:25.the day when I received a call from the Chairman of RBS, this was the
:22:25. > :22:29.morning that their shares had been suspended, not just once, but twice
:22:29. > :22:33.by the London exchange and he said, we are haemorrhaging money and I
:22:33. > :22:37.said how long can you last? He said well, wither going to go bust this
:22:37. > :22:40.afternoon. This was the second, maybe the biggest bank in the world
:22:40. > :22:46.and it had run out of money and this was three weeks after Lehmans had
:22:46. > :22:50.collapsed and other banks were in trouble. This was the occasion when
:22:50. > :22:56.we knew that we would have to act and we had a matter of hours to stop
:22:56. > :23:01.the system from collapsing. And with cashpoints, you feared not
:23:01. > :23:05.working people not able to get money out, there are suggestions that
:23:05. > :23:09.Gordon Brown was ready to put troops on the streets. Was that really
:23:09. > :23:13.considered? No, it was never considered. I was never party to a
:23:13. > :23:18.discussion like that. What we did know, if you remember Northern Rock
:23:18. > :23:21.which had seen the run in the autumn of 2007, you saw people queuing up,
:23:21. > :23:24.which had seen the run in the autumn you know, desperate to get their
:23:24. > :23:27.money out. Almost panicking in a very British sort of way. They were
:23:27. > :23:31.good natured about it, but they wanted their money out. I knew if
:23:31. > :23:34.one of the biggest banks in the world closed its doors, if the cash
:23:34. > :23:38.machines were switched off, there would be panic. People would try and
:23:38. > :23:42.get their money out of all the banks in Britain and it would have spread
:23:42. > :23:46.to America and throughout Europe and the banking system could have
:23:46. > :23:51.collapsed. That would have had massive repercussions. Where are we
:23:51. > :23:55.now? Has there been enough reform? Would you feel safe saying this
:23:55. > :24:00.could not happen again? Well, you can never say it couldn't happen
:24:00. > :24:05.again. And the tragedy it is down the line when people who were around
:24:05. > :24:10.last time left the banks and there is the temptation for people to come
:24:10. > :24:14.to believe they can make money out of nothing. There is always that
:24:14. > :24:17.risk. The banks are in a better position now. We were recapitalised
:24:17. > :24:22.and they have to hold more capital as a buffer in case of failure. The
:24:22. > :24:26.regulators are more on to the fact of the connections between banks
:24:26. > :24:30.internationally. I still worry. I worry about the exposure of the
:24:30. > :24:34.European banks to the Spanish housing crisis. We are not out of
:24:34. > :24:37.woods with Greece and there is always the connections back into
:24:37. > :24:42.Europe there. So you know, there is more work to be done. But we are in
:24:42. > :24:46.a far better position than we were in 2008, but then if you look at
:24:46. > :24:50.2008, it is hard to imagine you could have been in a worse place.
:24:50. > :24:54.And in 2013, the taxpayer still owns RBS, who would have thought that? Do
:24:54. > :24:57.you think it is time to sell? I would have thought that. If you
:24:57. > :25:01.you think it is time to sell? I acquire a large bank, there was no
:25:01. > :25:03.way you could get rid of it inside five years frankly. We will get our
:25:03. > :25:08.money back provided the Government five years frankly. We will get our
:25:08. > :25:12.sell shares based on what's economically right. We have got our
:25:12. > :25:15.money back for a lot of the support systems put in place at that time.
:25:15. > :25:21.Many of them have been wound down. In terms of the shares, there is no
:25:21. > :25:24.reason why we shouldn't get our money back as long as the Government
:25:24. > :25:28.act sensibly. Tomorrow, wither going to see the
:25:28. > :25:33.second phase of help to buy launched. Is this something you
:25:33. > :25:38.would welcome? Well, look, I am in favour of helping first-time buyers
:25:38. > :25:42.and helping the housing market, but what I am worried is the risk is you
:25:42. > :25:45.create another bubble. When you think about it, the number of houses
:25:45. > :25:50.available for sale hasn't changed and if you put in a lot of cheap
:25:50. > :25:56.cash then what will happen, it will push up prices. The housing bubble
:25:56. > :26:01.that everybody dayed in 2007 -- said in 2007 and 2008, we must never let
:26:01. > :26:04.this happen again. Now it is a Government policy to flush money
:26:04. > :26:08.into the system and there is a risk therefore, that you get a there is a
:26:08. > :26:12.risk that people take on credit at low interest rates and find their
:26:12. > :26:16.mortgage repayments go up when interest rates go up and they will
:26:16. > :26:20.go up. Yes, I am worried about it and I'm not the only one.
:26:20. > :26:27.Ed Miliband made pledges to freeze energy bills if he wins the next
:26:27. > :26:31.election. Was he right to? Look, it it is not being antibusiness or
:26:31. > :26:38.anti-enterprise to stand up when there is market failure and I think
:26:38. > :26:42.on any view if you look at what is going on in the energy prices. After
:26:42. > :26:46.attacking him, the Tories backed off. They too can see a problem.
:26:46. > :26:51.They announced a bunch of things last week.
:26:51. > :26:55.Was he right to say a freeze? Enacting a freeze on prices. Of is
:26:55. > :27:00.that the right move? What he is proposing is a freeze for about 20
:27:00. > :27:03.months whilst the competitive problems or the lack of competition
:27:03. > :27:08.problems with the industry are sorted out. He is not suggesting an
:27:08. > :27:12.indefinite freeze, but what he is saying, there is a problem here and
:27:12. > :27:17.the problem needs to be fixed. Now that surely is what governments be
:27:17. > :27:23.are supposed to be doing. You featured a lot in Damien
:27:23. > :27:27.McBride's memoirs. He said you adopted an attitude of poor
:27:27. > :27:32.Alistair, who had to put up with so much and didn't get credit for his
:27:32. > :27:37.role in resolving the financial crisis? I said everything about that
:27:37. > :27:41.time in my book and I am not proposing to add anything to it.
:27:41. > :27:47.And do you and Gordon Brown reflect back on this time together? Is that
:27:47. > :27:51.something you talk with about with the then Prime Minister? At the
:27:51. > :27:55.moment, I am seriously engaged in Scotland at the moment. I am in
:27:55. > :27:58.Edinburgh tonight and that is really, you know, it is very well to
:27:58. > :28:01.look back and say what happened and so on. It is more important you look
:28:01. > :28:05.to the future. Do you ever talk to Gordon Brown?
:28:05. > :28:09.Look, I am happy to talk to you about what is happening now, I am
:28:09. > :28:12.not proposing to give you a running commentary on my social life.
:28:12. > :28:14.Alistair Darling, thank you very much.
:28:14. > :28:18.Thank you. 15 minutes, the length of time
:28:18. > :28:22.allowed for some home visits to a person with disabilities. The length
:28:22. > :28:28.of time in other words for them to choose between asking for help,
:28:28. > :28:35.getting into a bath or help eating a meal and not both. The Care Minister
:28:35. > :28:37.said he was unaware of the time limitations and he was proposing an
:28:38. > :28:42.amendment to the care Bill. Sally Lubanov is one of those who raised
:28:42. > :28:44.the frustrations of the short slot system. We will see her in
:28:44. > :28:50.discussion with the minister shortly. First, her story.
:28:50. > :28:58.Hello. Gosh, how nice to see you. Come on in. I can't turn around too
:28:59. > :29:05.quickly so it will take sometime. This is my drawing room. I have
:29:05. > :29:09.always done everything for myself. I never asked anyone for help. I have
:29:09. > :29:13.always done my decorating and anything that needed to be done,
:29:13. > :29:23.I've done it. Up until last year I just was
:29:23. > :29:29.allowing myself to die. Slowly dying. I didn't see any point. I
:29:29. > :29:34.didn't think about that. I didn't think that way, but I was. I
:29:35. > :29:40.realised just allowing myself to die. I would try and put myself
:29:40. > :29:45.outside myself which was what I have been able to do all my life and know
:29:45. > :29:54.that my body is in agony, but I'm OK. I will not allow this to take me
:29:54. > :29:59.over. Sugar. I will take it over and refuse to
:29:59. > :30:05.play host to it. I am in the middle of writing a book and this is where
:30:05. > :30:10.I spend most of my time because I can't sit with my legs hanging down
:30:10. > :30:13.for long. So when I have been sitting there for a little while or
:30:13. > :30:17.over there at the computer, I have to come back and put my feet and
:30:17. > :30:21.legs up. I don't sleep very much at night. If the career is coming in,
:30:21. > :30:28.either she goes and gets shopping for me, or she changes the bed or my
:30:28. > :30:34.feet and legs are supposed to be down every two or three day -- done
:30:34. > :30:37.every two or three days, but I suppose they have been done five or
:30:37. > :30:41.six times in the last few months which doesn't work very well.
:30:41. > :30:48.I haven't been out since last Christmas.
:30:48. > :30:53.That was the last time I was out. I'm going to London!
:30:53. > :30:58.Sally Lubanov left her home as you can see for the first time in ten
:30:58. > :31:00.months. She has kindly come into the studio to meet the Care Minister.
:31:00. > :31:09.months. She has kindly come into the Tell us about the last time you left
:31:09. > :31:16.home then. Not since Christmas? No. I haven't. No, I haven't been, I
:31:16. > :31:24.haven't been out since then mainly because I can't go by myself because
:31:24. > :31:29.I have, I now have vascular dementia which means I have to be careful
:31:29. > :31:31.where I go and have somebody I can hang on to which is why I have vast
:31:31. > :31:35.pieces of furniture over the house hang on to which is why I have vast
:31:35. > :31:44.which I can hang on to when I need to. So I can't go out on my own. And
:31:44. > :31:49.your visits are from care workers? Yes.
:31:49. > :31:54.And how do they work? I have had a friend did come to stay and the
:31:54. > :32:00.careers are supposed to be able to stay because I have a room for them
:32:00. > :32:05.to stay in my -- and my con stul tants -- con sum tants and --
:32:05. > :32:11.consultants and doctors said I need a career sometimes when I have been
:32:11. > :32:18.to the hospital and had tests and whatever. But the problem is that a
:32:18. > :32:25.person above my bedroom where the career would stay, because I stay in
:32:25. > :32:31.my art room as you saw, gets up at 3.30am and doesn't stop until 9am.
:32:31. > :32:34.And when you have a care worker visit, you have changed the
:32:35. > :32:39.timings... I have. But previously how did the time
:32:39. > :32:41.slots used to work? What could you get done? Nothing. Well, very
:32:41. > :32:47.little. There would be time for the get done? Nothing. Well, very
:32:47. > :32:51.girl to make a cup of tea. Well, I will tell you what happened. Half an
:32:51. > :32:57.hour is on the time sheet. It is written on the time sheet, half an
:32:57. > :32:59.hour. Well, they come in. They book in on the telephone which takes a
:32:59. > :33:02.few minutes. They then look at the in on the telephone which takes a
:33:02. > :33:07.book to see what the person who came before has written in the book. They
:33:07. > :33:13.then take off their coat and hat. They then put on their apron and
:33:13. > :33:17.their rubber gloves and then they say good morning. That's ten minutes
:33:17. > :33:22.gone. Right. So Norman Lamb, what would you say now to Sally Lubanov?
:33:23. > :33:27.Well, I think Sally, may I call you Sally? Yes, please.
:33:27. > :33:31.Is a perfect example of what is going on across our country. There
:33:31. > :33:36.is a sort of an epidemic of loneliness and this is not just
:33:36. > :33:41.about the formal care. Formal care is critical and there is a real
:33:41. > :33:47.problem with short visits and I have been given a time sheet by a care
:33:47. > :33:55.worker by just demonstrates an impossible schedule.
:33:55. > :34:00.It says 7.15 to 7.30 and the care worker would have had to get to
:34:00. > :34:04.another address. I mean is this news to you? No. I said I believed the
:34:04. > :34:08.next scandal was going to be in home care because I became aware that
:34:08. > :34:12.these things were completely unacceptable. And it is not just
:34:12. > :34:16.short visits, it is a constant unacceptable. And it is not just
:34:16. > :34:20.turnover of different care workers. Let's look at short visits. What
:34:21. > :34:24.will you pledge? The end of 15 minute visits? Well, the one thing
:34:24. > :34:28.we have to be conscious of. There are sometimes occasions for instance
:34:28. > :34:29.checking that someone is taking a their medication when a quick visit
:34:29. > :34:34.might be appropriate. their medication when a quick visit
:34:34. > :34:39.60% of local authorities say the 15 minute visit is used regularly. This
:34:39. > :34:46.is a norm. It is not about changing a plaster? We are doing an amendment
:34:46. > :34:56.to the Care Bill will require local authorities to focus on an
:34:56. > :35:05.individual's care needs. May I just butt in? The local care,
:35:05. > :35:09.the local councils give the contracts to firms.
:35:09. > :35:12.Yes, they do. They don't do it themselves. It is not the local
:35:12. > :35:17.councils who decide. The local councils must stop the...
:35:17. > :35:20.How long is long enough? What would you like to see the norm become? Is
:35:20. > :35:25.half an hour long enough or an hour at a time? Well, Sally rearranged
:35:25. > :35:29.her care so she gets care every second day and has a longer period.
:35:29. > :35:31.There are 15 minute slots on a sheet that you have been given.
:35:31. > :35:35.Absolutely. So tell me what the numbers should
:35:35. > :35:39.be? Well, I don't think you can define a specific number. It has to
:35:39. > :35:44.be based on the individual's well-being. So you might be saying
:35:44. > :35:48.this to another Sally in another year's time? No w we are -- no, we
:35:48. > :35:52.are saying to local authorities they have to he focus on an individual's
:35:52. > :35:55.well-being. You are not going to take
:35:55. > :35:59.responsibility? No, it will be a legal requirement. Sally made this
:35:59. > :36:04.forcefully today. It is not just about formal care, it is about
:36:04. > :36:09.companionship, friendship and giving people a life back again and getting
:36:09. > :36:16.people out of their homes. Sally doesn't see anyone from day-to-day
:36:16. > :36:20.and that's not acceptable. I don't think the Government can do anything
:36:20. > :36:23.about it. I think... It is a challenge for society. Families and
:36:23. > :36:27.neighbours. Thank you.
:36:27. > :36:30.If you were anywhere near feelics stow today, you would have seen a
:36:30. > :36:37.huge ship. You might have asked yourself if it was the biggest ship?
:36:37. > :36:43.It is the biggest moving object ever. If you are a boat geek, burd
:36:43. > :36:48.day -- your day is made. It arrives weighted down with goods from Asia
:36:48. > :36:54.to us. It leaves our shores a lot lighter. Can anything reverse that
:36:54. > :37:06.as we creep slowly away from austerity. Here is Andy Verity.
:37:06. > :37:10.This is the largest ship on the planet. It is a quarter of a mile
:37:10. > :37:12.long and can hold 18,000 container units, three times as many as the
:37:12. > :37:16.long and can hold 18,000 container biggest ships of the last century.
:37:16. > :37:26.. If you stack them up end to end,
:37:26. > :37:30.they breakthrough the Strategic Rail Authority stratifere. Manned by a
:37:30. > :37:33.cruise of just 22, the shirp is so tall it had to be weighed down to
:37:34. > :37:38.get under the bridge that links Sweden to Denmark with just a meter
:37:38. > :37:42.to spare and getting into Copenhagen was trickier.
:37:42. > :37:49.Copenhagen is not used to coping with ships like this. We had to use
:37:49. > :37:54.a powerful top boat. We normally don't do that. We had to make sure
:37:54. > :37:58.because it is a narrow channel we are coming into and that was one of
:37:58. > :38:00.our concerns. If something goes wrong, you could bump against the
:38:00. > :38:04.our concerns. If something goes sides? Yeah, we could do that, but
:38:04. > :38:08.we have made the arrangements so that will never happen.
:38:08. > :38:13.To sail from China to Europe, the ship will take three-and-a-half
:38:13. > :38:17.weeks and an average speed of 16 knots, 18mph. You could cycle
:38:17. > :38:24.faster. The priority is not speed, but transporting these as cheaply as
:38:24. > :38:31.possible. These dull looking boxes have
:38:31. > :38:37.transformed the world. In 1956, a Texan businessman, Malcolm Maclean,
:38:37. > :38:41.converted an oil tanker to take metal botions that could be switched
:38:41. > :38:48.from train to ship to lorry. You could unload a ship for a 13 -- for
:38:49. > :38:52.a 30th of the previous price. Containers like the ones used to
:38:52. > :38:56.build this he East London market, made transport so cheap it mattered
:38:56. > :39:00.less than before where the goods were made. If you wanted to ship
:39:00. > :39:04.something somewhere, it would use up were made. If you wanted to ship
:39:04. > :39:09.25% of the cost. That meant you couldn't ship far. It would cost a
:39:09. > :39:13.lot to get it to a port. Now, with containerisation, that cost has
:39:13. > :39:19.reduced. You can now ship a can of beer for about a cent. ,000
:39:20. > :39:23.container ships on the sea and 20 million containers bringing us 90%
:39:23. > :39:40.of everything. Even some British food arrives by
:39:40. > :39:43.ship. Goods are made in made in Scotland and sent to China and
:39:43. > :39:49.brought back. In one of these boxes, you can fit
:39:50. > :39:53.1,000 scooters or 10,000 pairs of jeans or 13,000 smartphones and here
:39:53. > :39:59.is how cheap that makes it to transport each item. A scooter would
:39:59. > :40:06.cost 96 pence, a pair of jeans, ten pence or a smartphone just seven
:40:06. > :40:10.pence. This vast new vessel should make container shipping cheaper.
:40:10. > :40:13.When this ship is full, it you laid each one of the containers end to
:40:14. > :40:18.end and tried to put them on a train, the train would have to be 68
:40:18. > :40:23.miles long. In fact, this ship is half empty and that's because if it
:40:23. > :40:27.were full, it would sit o so low in the water, it wouldn't be able to
:40:27. > :40:31.get into the Port of Copenhagen. There is no port in North America
:40:31. > :40:36.that can accommodate a ship this size. How it z can it make economic
:40:36. > :40:41.sense to build a ship so large it can't fit into most of the world's
:40:41. > :40:46.ports? The answer believe it or not, is cost-cutting. This ship can dock
:40:46. > :40:50.in the far Eastern Europe, a route where competition is fierce and
:40:50. > :40:55.rates have been slashed. Smaller ships don't make money. The reason
:40:55. > :40:59.why you need a large ship is that you get economies of scale. So you
:40:59. > :41:04.can transport more containers and use less fuel.
:41:04. > :41:10.The Majestic is the first of 20 such ships ordered by a Danish shipping
:41:10. > :41:15.group with revenues as big as Microsoft's and carbon emissions
:41:15. > :41:20.almost as big as Denmark's. While most containers lose money, bigger
:41:20. > :41:26.ships are a way back into profit. This ship consumes around 50% less
:41:26. > :41:30.than the average of the vessels that were employed a couple of years ago.
:41:30. > :41:35.The ship comes here full of containers. What about going back?
:41:35. > :41:40.From Europe, we have a lot of export of waste materials like scrap metal
:41:40. > :41:46.and waste paper and things like that. You take our rubbish? When
:41:46. > :41:50.this ship returns to Asia, it will ride higher in the water because up
:41:50. > :41:56.to half of these units will contain nothing, but air. It is a problem we
:41:56. > :42:01.have had for 30 years. Our addiction to imports creates a nasty
:42:01. > :42:07.imbalance. The most recent data shows in one month we exported £28.4
:42:07. > :42:16.billion worth of goods, but imported 34.7 billion, a deficit of £9.9
:42:16. > :42:20.billion. It is getting worse. In the boom, the West financed that
:42:20. > :42:24.addiction to imports by borrowing massively from the east. The east
:42:24. > :42:29.got a savings glut. The west got into debt and the world got a
:42:29. > :42:36.crisis. That trade imbalance shows up in the
:42:36. > :42:39.prices paid to ship a container. Container shipping companies are
:42:39. > :42:42.keen for these things not to be empty that they will offer you a
:42:42. > :42:48.massive incentive to export. Bringing one of these in from Asia
:42:48. > :42:56.will cost you over $1500. Spending one back out, less than half that.
:42:56. > :43:00.The West's addiction to imports is only half the reason for the
:43:00. > :43:05.difference. China kept its currency low, ensuring goods going west to
:43:05. > :43:12.east are less competitive. But bit by bit, the Chinese currency is
:43:12. > :43:16.appreciating. When that takes hold, this ship going east should sail
:43:16. > :43:20.lower in the water. We are going to take you back to our
:43:20. > :43:22.breaking story. The news that politicians on the subcommittee of
:43:22. > :43:25.the Privy Council rejected the politicians on the subcommittee of
:43:25. > :43:29.press's alternative version of the charter to regulate the press. We
:43:30. > :43:33.are joined by The Sun's, Trevor Kavanagh.
:43:33. > :43:37.Trevor Kavanagh. Thank you for joining us. Tell us your reaction to
:43:37. > :43:39.what you are hearing this evening? Well, it is a surprise that it has
:43:39. > :43:43.what you are hearing this evening? come early, but it is not a shock.
:43:43. > :43:48.It is what we have been given fairly clear clues would happen.
:43:49. > :43:56.Intimations from the top of the Government down. And I think it has
:43:56. > :44:02.to be seen as a great victory for the forces of oppression of a free
:44:02. > :44:04.press, Hacked Off in particular and for the politicians who have gone
:44:04. > :44:06.press, Hacked Off in particular and along for the ride.
:44:06. > :44:08.Tell us what you make of the process? The way in which this has
:44:08. > :44:14.come about? Well. It is a bizarre process. It
:44:15. > :44:19.doesn't really follow the recommendations by Lord Justice
:44:19. > :44:23.Leveson which was for the media, the mups to come up with a solution --
:44:23. > :44:27.newspapers to come up with a solution. We felt we did, we came up
:44:27. > :44:32.with everything that was required of us, short of a political input which
:44:32. > :44:36.would be required by some form of lelg slayings -- legislation.
:44:36. > :44:41.Whichever way you look at it, the Privy Council is a political input.
:44:41. > :44:46.What do you do now? What are the lines you have to safeguard and what
:44:46. > :44:49.are the compromises that you have to make now? Well, I don't speak on
:44:49. > :44:56.behalf of the newspaper industry, but I would guess that we will
:44:56. > :45:00.proceed as we are doing and have been doing for a very long time and
:45:00. > :45:04.try to keep getting newspapers out with good stories in them. Somewhere
:45:04. > :45:07.along the line from now on, we will hear officially and formally from
:45:07. > :45:12.the Privy Council and then we will know what the reaction is of the
:45:12. > :45:16.Government and now and of the day. This is going to drag on for a long
:45:16. > :45:21.time. Possibly up to and beyond the next election. Thank you very much,
:45:21. > :45:25.Trevor Kavanagh. Steve Hewlett, you can respond to that and what Twitter
:45:25. > :45:31.has been telling us? Well, I have had a response from someone who does
:45:31. > :45:36.represent the industry who says what Trevor says along the lines of their
:45:36. > :45:40.plans for their self regulatory. Trevor says along the lines of their
:45:40. > :45:48.Lord Phillips searching for the personnel. This is the press's own
:45:48. > :45:52.new self regulator to replace the IPCC. The details of this have not
:45:52. > :45:55.been discussed here yet. The discussion tonight and what the
:45:55. > :45:59.Privy Council is about is all about a recognition body to give the stamp
:45:59. > :46:03.of approval to the press self regulator to stop Leveson said what
:46:03. > :46:07.happened every time before which is you get a crisis, a commission and
:46:08. > :46:13.then they back slide. This, the back stop, the recognition body was the
:46:13. > :46:20.key to holding that in process. The campaigners, Hacked Off, say the
:46:20. > :46:24.decision -- was inevitable, it is overdue and the press were involved
:46:24. > :46:31.in stalling tactics. They say it has shown two good things. It shows the
:46:31. > :46:40.press are still weded to the old IPCC. The press are not all agreed
:46:40. > :46:45.about IPCO, but although the pes weren't agreed - press wrant agreed
:46:45. > :46:51.-- weren't agreed, they all disagreed with it.
:46:51. > :46:54.Steve Hewlett, thank you very much indeed. We end with the news tonight
:46:54. > :46:59.that the BBC reversed the flow of talent leaving the organisation
:46:59. > :47:06.today with their star signing, the Sesame Street's Cookie Monster
:47:06. > :47:19.joined our presenters roster. We have been joined by him. Cookie
:47:19. > :47:25.Monster, why Britain? Why the BBC? Cookie. Yum-yum. Bye-bye.