:00:00. > :00:10.President Obama announced a new boss for the most important Central Bank
:00:10. > :00:17.in the world. Who is the woman to be burdened with a job on which the
:00:17. > :00:21.rest of the world's fortunes depend? 24 hours a day, seven days a week,
:00:21. > :00:26.London circles the globe through the BBC.
:00:26. > :00:30.Once upon a time anyone could tell you what the BBC was for. Is it time
:00:30. > :00:33.it was put back in its box? We're joined by Jeremy Deller, one
:00:33. > :00:36.of Britain's most successful conceptual artists, who introduces
:00:36. > :00:46.us to his latest venture, an exploration of the industrial
:00:46. > :00:50.revolution. Sheffield, smoke and glim, Parliamentary report 1833.
:00:50. > :01:04.Sheffield is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw.
:01:04. > :01:07.A couple of hours ago President Obama formally nominated a
:01:07. > :01:11.67-year-old economist, Janet Yellen to become one of the most powerful
:01:12. > :01:15.women in the world. Assuming she is confirmed as a chairman of the
:01:15. > :01:18.Federal Reserve by the Senate, she'll become the first woman to
:01:18. > :01:22.head a major Central Bank at a time when most of the world is affected
:01:22. > :01:30.by how that bank manages what is a very damaged, but still influential
:01:30. > :01:34.economy. Her gender is a nothing issue compared to what she thinks
:01:34. > :01:46.about how the economy ought to be handled.
:01:46. > :01:54.Yesterday, the US Federal Reserve released its new $1100 bill. It
:01:54. > :01:58.looks unlike any of its predecessors.
:01:58. > :02:04.It is unlikely that anyone has tried to forge Janet Yellen, but she, like
:02:04. > :02:08.the banknote, looks unlike any of her predecessors. Today, she was
:02:08. > :02:13.unveiled as the president's choice for the chair of the US Central
:02:13. > :02:18.Bank, the Federal Reserve. Janet, I thank you for taking a on this new
:02:18. > :02:22.assignment and given the urgent economic challenges facing our
:02:22. > :02:27.nation, I urge the Senate to confirm Janet without delay. I am confident
:02:27. > :02:30.that she will be an exceptional chair of the Federal Reserve. I
:02:30. > :02:34.should add that she will be the first woman to lead the Fed in its
:02:34. > :02:38.100 year history. In her Brooklyn accent, Janet Yellen
:02:38. > :02:41.accepted the nomination and promised to do more to help struggling
:02:41. > :02:47.Americans. The mandate of the Federal Reserve
:02:47. > :02:53.is to serve all the American people. And too many Americans still can't
:02:53. > :02:58.find a job and worry how they will pay their bills and provide for
:02:58. > :03:03.their families. The Federal Reserve can help if it does its job
:03:03. > :03:07.effectively. The current Fed chairman, Ben Bernanke, stands down
:03:07. > :03:11.next year with the US federal Government in shutdown and debt
:03:11. > :03:15.default a possibility, the markets are jittery and uncertain. The World
:03:15. > :03:19.Bank and the IMF have their meeting on Friday in Washington, with
:03:19. > :03:23.everything else there is to worry about, a new Fed nem knee at least
:03:23. > :03:29.crosses one uncertainty off the list.
:03:29. > :03:33.I think it is good news that the US Administration is moving towards
:03:33. > :03:37.dissipating the uncertainty that exists about who is going to be the
:03:37. > :03:41.next a chairman of the Federal Reserve. So who is Janet Yellen? At
:03:41. > :03:45.67, she is perhaps the best qualified and most experienced
:03:45. > :03:49.candidate for the job ever. For the past two years, she has been Ben
:03:49. > :03:55.Bernanke's deputy, before that, a long career in academia and a stint
:03:55. > :03:57.on Bill Clinton's council of economic advisers. She can point to
:03:57. > :04:02.several occasions in the past when she correctly warned against the
:04:02. > :04:09.prevailing wisdom. She was one of the people that did raise, you might
:04:09. > :04:15.say, alarm bells, but I think like many of the others who saw the
:04:15. > :04:18.problems coming, didn't see the magnitude of the difficulties. Very
:04:18. > :04:24.different from those many of those in the mainstream who saw no
:04:24. > :04:31.problem, you know, Greenspan, would say there is a little froth in the
:04:31. > :04:35.economy, but no real problem. Actually, undertook policies that
:04:35. > :04:43.helped create the bubble. So it was a very different stance.
:04:43. > :04:47.According to a study, Janet Yellen comes out top. She made the right
:04:47. > :04:54.call, says the paper, almost twice as often as Ben Bernanke. Before we
:04:54. > :05:01.get tee carried away, her score was still only 52% right, not for
:05:01. > :05:05.nothing, is economics known as the dismal science! So what can we
:05:05. > :05:10.expect from the future? A continuation of Ben Bernanke's loose
:05:10. > :05:17.monetary policy, no early end to quantitative easing in the Scotland
:05:17. > :05:23.Yardon -- jargon. And she is an inflation dove, meaning she won't
:05:23. > :05:27.bear down on inflation if it means rising unemployment. Her appointment
:05:27. > :05:34.doesn't signal a big change. She will be a little bit different. She
:05:34. > :05:37.might be soft on inflation and might manage monetary policies that's
:05:37. > :05:39.loser than what we have seen with Ben Bernanke. But the broad picture
:05:39. > :05:45.will remain the same. The Fed is celebrating its centenary
:05:45. > :05:48.this year. 100 years since this movie was made. The world's
:05:48. > :05:51.financial system is more complex and more dangerous. The job of Fed chair
:05:51. > :06:03.is more difficult. I'm joined now from Boston by
:06:03. > :06:06.Harvard economics professor, Ken Rogoff, and from Washington by
:06:06. > :06:12.Gillian Tett, the Assistant Editor of the Financial Times. How
:06:12. > :06:16.significant an appointment is this? Well, it marks a continuity
:06:16. > :06:22.appointment in terms of the actual Fed policies because Janet Yellen
:06:22. > :06:26.has been vice chair for a number of years and served longer inside the
:06:26. > :06:30.Fed before getting this position than any of the previous Fed
:06:30. > :06:36.chairmen. What does mark a radical break is she is the first woman to
:06:36. > :06:40.hold this position. Only 10% of the world's 177 Central Bank governors
:06:40. > :06:48.are women and she joins their ranks. Does that make any difference,
:06:48. > :06:52.Kenneth Rogoff? I think it is very important politically, not in her
:06:52. > :06:56.role as being Central Banker, she superb. She is brilliant. She will
:06:56. > :07:00.represent continuity in policy, continuity in excellence. But, of
:07:00. > :07:05.course, I think the fact that she is a woman is important and everyone is
:07:05. > :07:10.going to embrace that. Why? I mean... Gillian, go on.
:07:10. > :07:13.going to embrace that. Perhaps I can jump in here and say,
:07:13. > :07:18.I mean the good thing about Janet Yellen, apart from the fact that she
:07:18. > :07:21.is a very accomplished academic economist, who is good at pulling
:07:21. > :07:25.people together, and listening to their points of view, which would be
:07:25. > :07:28.important for the Fed as they try and pool people together through
:07:28. > :07:33.difficult policy decisions, but the good thing about her, is she looks
:07:34. > :07:38.accessible to ordinary Americans. I mean, she looks like your
:07:38. > :07:43.grandmother or your neighbour's friend. She is not yet another
:07:43. > :07:46.person in a suit who is sitting in an ivory tower and that's important
:07:46. > :07:49.right now because the Fed is going to have to really build confidence
:07:49. > :07:53.amongst the ordinary American consumers in the coming years and
:07:53. > :07:57.get them to believe in what it is doing through this difficult policy
:07:57. > :08:01.challenges and at least Janet Yellen represents a new face and a very
:08:01. > :08:05.friendly one too. Kenneth Rogoff, what's your view of
:08:05. > :08:12.whether she is likely to consider inflation more or less important
:08:12. > :08:17.than bearing down on unemployment? Well, I think that she considers the
:08:17. > :08:23.unemployment problem just profound at the moment and if inflation
:08:23. > :08:26.drifts up a bit that is OK. I really don't think Ben Bernanke was all
:08:26. > :08:31.that different. I think he confronted a board where there were
:08:31. > :08:35.hawks, where there were people who were sceptics and he pushed back and
:08:35. > :08:44.Janet Yellen will do the same. I want to second what Gillian said
:08:44. > :08:46.about her being empathetic. She projects it as well. It will help
:08:46. > :08:52.the Fed explain what it is doing. No, I think this really is
:08:52. > :08:57.continuity in policy because Ben Bernanke was dovish too.
:08:57. > :09:03.The other question, of course... Can I jump? Go on, Gillian. Go on. Both
:09:03. > :09:10.Ken and I agree she has many skills. I want to raise two questions going
:09:10. > :09:13.forward about her skill set. Although she frents a friendly --
:09:13. > :09:17.forward about her skill set. presents a friendly face. Will she
:09:17. > :09:22.have enough charisma and authority to win confidence of the markets
:09:22. > :09:25.going forward given the scale of challenges the Fed will face?
:09:25. > :09:29.Secondly, she is a great academic economist, she is not actually had
:09:29. > :09:33.that much direct markets experience and if I have one big question, does
:09:33. > :09:38.she really smell and read markets in the way the Fed chairman is going to
:09:38. > :09:42.need to do in the coming years? Some people might say, it is great she
:09:42. > :09:47.hasn't got markets experienced and she hasn't worked on Wall Street.
:09:47. > :09:50.There is one question in my mind is about her ability to play a clever
:09:50. > :09:53.dance with the markets going forwardmed
:09:53. > :09:58.What's your view on that, Kenneth Rogoff? Well, of course, I do think
:09:58. > :10:04.basically it is a plus that she has not been in the markets. That it
:10:04. > :10:07.represents an independent and integrity that we need. Certainly,
:10:07. > :10:12.after the financial crisis, Ben Bernanke had the same thing, of
:10:12. > :10:18.course. But I mean this is a person who is the president of the San
:10:18. > :10:23.Francisco Federal Reserve. She has been following and you know, she
:10:23. > :10:27.will be very effective. She, because she is a consensus builder, somebody
:10:27. > :10:33.who is a good listener, she will be able to learn from the staff. She
:10:33. > :10:37.won't always insist she is right. She won't always bulldose over them.
:10:37. > :10:40.I know she can be tough when she wants to be and when she needs to
:10:40. > :10:43.be. I think she has a good mix of these skills.
:10:43. > :10:48.The other thing, Kenneth Rogoff, that is likely to be sensitive as
:10:48. > :10:53.far as the markets are concerned is this question of continuing or
:10:53. > :10:59.tapering off quantitative easing. What is your hunch about that? Well,
:10:59. > :11:01.tapering off quantitative easing. there is quite a consensus within
:11:01. > :11:06.tapering off quantitative easing. the Fed that she is going to deal
:11:06. > :11:13.with that it didn't help that much. That it has some risks and they want
:11:13. > :11:17.to pull out. And they handled it very, very badly in May. It was a
:11:17. > :11:20.disaster and they are going to have to regroup for a while, but I
:11:21. > :11:24.suspect we will be on track to see tapering off if not at the end of
:11:24. > :11:28.this year, towards the beginning of next. I don't think this will
:11:28. > :11:32.represent a break with that. Is that the right thing to do? That's
:11:32. > :11:37.another question. I tend to favour saying more rather than less, but I
:11:37. > :11:40.suspect that the strength of the consensus within the board, the rest
:11:40. > :11:47.of the board is so strong it will continue to push in that direction.
:11:47. > :11:51.Is that your sense too, Gillian? I think there is a lot of debate
:11:51. > :11:54.inside the Fed, but I can't emphasise strongly enough how
:11:54. > :12:00.difficult a challenge Janet Yellen is going to face. Some people inside
:12:00. > :12:04.the Fed think that tapering off the current experiments in monetary
:12:04. > :12:08.policy will be like landing a plane. They smooth and very gentle and you
:12:08. > :12:12.stop buying assets and the plane comes into land gently and you
:12:12. > :12:16.hardly notice. That's wildly optimistic and it will be more like
:12:16. > :12:20.a plane coming in for crash landing in a storm with a pilot who can can
:12:20. > :12:25.only see half the controls and the radar is broken. What you are
:12:25. > :12:29.looking at is an extraordinary new experiment about how you stop this
:12:29. > :12:30.quantitative easing. The International Monetary Fund came out
:12:30. > :12:34.quantitative easing. The today with an extraordinary estimate
:12:34. > :12:37.saying that when the Fed starts to taper, that could create $2.3
:12:37. > :12:41.billion worth of losses on taper, that could create $2.3
:12:41. > :12:45.portfolios that investors hold around the world in bonds. That's a
:12:45. > :12:49.big number. Of course, it is not definite, but the key point is we
:12:49. > :12:52.could be heading for a period of real market volatility if not this
:12:52. > :12:55.month, then in the next couple of years.
:12:55. > :13:01.Well, something to look forward to. Thank you very much indeed.
:13:01. > :13:05.If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. It is relative, of
:13:05. > :13:09.course, but it is undeniable if they could get their way, some of this
:13:09. > :13:12.country's most prestigious universities would charge students a
:13:12. > :13:17.lot more for the education they receive. Students have already seen
:13:17. > :13:22.university fees treble to £9,000 a year. Today, the vice chancellor of
:13:22. > :13:28.Oxford said that that is nothing like enough to he cover the true
:13:29. > :13:32.cost which is around £16,000. It is political poison, of course, to
:13:32. > :13:34.allow fees to rise to that level, about because of the argument that
:13:35. > :13:40.allow fees to rise to that level, they would put smart young people
:13:40. > :13:56.off the idea of university. Here is Sanchia Berg's essay.
:13:56. > :14:06.The freshers are coming can. Exr -- Oxford's freshers are starting this
:14:06. > :14:11.week. Most UK students at Oxford come from affluent families, more
:14:11. > :14:15.than 40% went to private schools. While the numbers on free school
:14:15. > :14:19.meals have been low and static tor years, for those from less affluent
:14:19. > :14:26.households, the university's public image can be daunting. The reality
:14:26. > :14:33.is different. The idea that Oxford is only for the very rich or those
:14:33. > :14:36.whose parents went to Oxford or are from that background, but I don't
:14:36. > :14:40.think that's true. All the misconceptions that you
:14:40. > :14:45.think about, it is really posh. It is really boring. It is full of
:14:45. > :14:48.really rich people. And I had those misconceptions. I was shocked to
:14:48. > :14:53.find it costs the same as any other university. The fees are the same. I
:14:53. > :14:56.did have misconceptions and I did think everyone would be from private
:14:56. > :15:01.school and they would be walking around in a tuxedo and would live in
:15:01. > :15:06.castles. Know how to learn. Know how to
:15:06. > :15:10.think. Oxford's vice chancellor wants to
:15:10. > :15:14.charge higher fees, saying each under graduate costs the university
:15:15. > :15:20.£16,000 a year which would surely make the university more exclusive
:15:20. > :15:26.still. So far, don'ts say tuition fees have not been a deterrent. We
:15:26. > :15:31.are seeing students are not put off by 2003s. In my eight or nine years
:15:31. > :15:35.here, we have never had a student withdraw or suspend for reasons of
:15:35. > :15:43.financial need. We will not let it happen.
:15:43. > :15:46.Meet the brilliant club. A charity helping bright students from
:15:46. > :15:50.comprehensives get to elite universities, they are the kind of
:15:50. > :15:55.student Oxford needs to attract. Anyone here thinking that Oxford
:15:55. > :15:58.might be wound one of their choices on UCCAS.
:15:58. > :16:02.The latest data shows between 2008 and 2011, just 40 students on free
:16:03. > :16:06.school meals got to Oxbridge each year. It is not always about
:16:06. > :16:11.recruiting students for our college or university. Sometimes it is about
:16:11. > :16:13.going into low income communities, low participation communities and
:16:13. > :16:19.talking about university in general. Two years ago, the charity k, the
:16:19. > :16:23.Sutton Trust looked at where under graduates had come from. They found
:16:23. > :16:28.that five schools, four independent, one State, had sent more pupils to
:16:28. > :16:32.Oxford and Cambridge than 2,000 other schools combined. And some
:16:32. > :16:35.say, that this is the problem. That there is still too many schools
:16:35. > :16:39.across the country who don't think that even their brightest pupils can
:16:39. > :16:43.apply to these universities. If you look at the top of anything
:16:43. > :16:48.in British society, you are looking at close to 50% coming from just two
:16:48. > :16:53.universities. So, it is actually, if you want to get on in this country,
:16:53. > :16:57.going to Oxford and Cambridge is a huge advantage. It is the number of
:16:57. > :17:02.kids going to Oxford and Cambridge from poor backgrounds is incredibly
:17:02. > :17:06.low and that is a big issue. Let's to the forget, we are talking
:17:06. > :17:11.about two universities, Oxbridge being clobbered again. Oxbridge
:17:11. > :17:15.aren't the only top universities in this country. Let's look at the data
:17:15. > :17:18.for the kids from the free school meals background who are at the top
:17:18. > :17:23.flight universities in this country. You will see different numbers. It
:17:23. > :17:26.is not, it can't just be about Oxbridge.
:17:26. > :17:38.No, I don't think it is just about Oxbridge. Oxbridge is a kind of...
:17:38. > :17:42.Oh, it is tiresome. At Exeter College where I studied in
:17:42. > :17:46.the 1980s, the rector has been trying to recruit more students from
:17:46. > :17:51.different backgrounds. She thinks there has to be a shift. She tackled
:17:51. > :17:56.ministers about it. So far, without success. I think what we really need
:17:56. > :18:00.and this isn't an Oxford policy, this is what I think we need, is a
:18:00. > :18:04.way of doing what American universities do and ta are getting
:18:05. > :18:10.the really clever kids early on at school, maybe when they are doing
:18:10. > :18:16.GCSEs and seeing what their results are, picking them out and con
:18:16. > :18:21.tacting -- contacting them and bringing them here and making them
:18:21. > :18:24.realise they should be working to see if they can come here and they
:18:24. > :18:27.will enjoy it when they get here. You wanted to get more bright
:18:27. > :18:31.children from disadvantaged families into the college ever since you
:18:31. > :18:38.came. Have you managed to make a change? It crept up a little, but it
:18:38. > :18:45.has not been a dramatic change. That's a course of regret to me.
:18:45. > :18:48.Rebecca and Rose are just starting their second year studying history.
:18:48. > :18:52.What did they think of the idea? I their second year studying history.
:18:52. > :18:57.think it could be a really useful way of encouraging students from
:18:57. > :19:02.lower income backgrounds to think about Oxford. That's the first step,
:19:02. > :19:05.I think, the application process isn't discriminatory, but getting
:19:05. > :19:11.students from those backgrounds to apply is the real problem.
:19:11. > :19:14.Lots of people apply to Oxford wonder if they are good enough. If
:19:14. > :19:19.you are wondering if you are from the wrong social class, it is
:19:19. > :19:23.impossible and then odds are you are not going to apply. Individual
:19:23. > :19:26.targeting would be great. Oxford works hard to persuade
:19:26. > :19:31.students from alall backgrounds that the university could be right for
:19:31. > :19:34.them. There is no sign yet it made a dramatic difference and talk of
:19:34. > :19:41.raising fees is likely to make that job tougher.
:19:41. > :19:49.Well, with us now is Simon Renton who is president of the University
:19:49. > :19:53.and College Union and Dr Wendy from the Russell Group which represents
:19:53. > :19:58.24 of our leading universities. Are we supposed to take this winge from
:19:58. > :20:03.the vice chancellor at Oxford seriously? I don't think it is a
:20:03. > :20:07.winge. We need to make sure our leading universities have enough
:20:07. > :20:13.money to compete with universities in the US, in Asia, in Brazil, in
:20:13. > :20:18.Australia. They have more resources than we do. We as a country spend
:20:18. > :20:24.half what the US does on higher education. We are the equivalent of
:20:24. > :20:29.Chile and Slovakia. We need to make sure the problem is... You would
:20:29. > :20:32.like to see fees raised, would you? There is an issue. Before we talk
:20:32. > :20:37.about fees, we need to look at what is happening in the current system.
:20:37. > :20:42.At the moment, fees don't increase with inflation. There is a problem
:20:42. > :20:48.also with the under funding of some high cost subjects like chemistry,
:20:48. > :20:53.physics, medicine. £9,000 goes nowhere near... So you support his
:20:53. > :20:58.view. What do you think? I agree entirely that particularly the
:20:58. > :21:03.research intensive universities are vastly under funded however, I would
:21:03. > :21:10.say, when I was 26 I was driving London Buses for a living. I stopped
:21:10. > :21:15.work and went to my local college. Now, I'm certain, absolutely certain
:21:15. > :21:21.that I would not do that if I were in that position now with the fees
:21:21. > :21:26.regime that we already have. But the evidence doesn't show that? All I
:21:26. > :21:29.would say is my evidence to me does show that. We have got a number of
:21:29. > :21:33.variables. Since fees went up, actually
:21:33. > :21:41.applications have recovered to where they were before. And from students
:21:41. > :21:45.from disadvantaged backgrounds. There are other things that changed
:21:46. > :21:51.as well as the fees introduction. So universities are under pressure, not
:21:51. > :21:58.that heavy pressure, but to widen their access base. There are all
:21:58. > :22:05.sorts of reasons why it hasn't dropped off the cliff in terms of
:22:05. > :22:08.recruitment. Finance, I know this seems counter-intuitive. Finance is
:22:08. > :22:13.not the problem when it comes to increasing the proportion of working
:22:13. > :22:19.class kids in our universities. Can we focus on the main problem? The
:22:19. > :22:25.main problem is under achievement at school. Let him get a word in edge
:22:25. > :22:28.ways. If we solve that problem, we would solve many others.
:22:28. > :22:31.If we solved the problem of under achievement in schools, we would
:22:31. > :22:36.have the magic wand. In the short-term, we have to start dealing
:22:36. > :22:42.with what the problems are in universities and the big problem is
:22:42. > :22:47.that countries are leaving the cuts yoets -- leaving the United States
:22:47. > :22:52.aside, I don't hold the United States up as a good example. There
:22:52. > :22:57.are a handful of elite institutions. We should be going in the direction
:22:57. > :23:02.of Germany and France and the Scandinavian countries where the
:23:02. > :23:07.State is putting money into higher education because they believe that
:23:07. > :23:14.education in general and higher education in particular... So the
:23:14. > :23:17.taxpayer just coughs up more money 1234 -- more money? If we stick with
:23:17. > :23:22.the fees regime that we have is that money is being recovered through
:23:22. > :23:26.taxation anyway. If it is the case that one is better off in the
:23:26. > :23:32.employment market having been a graduate then it is reasonable
:23:32. > :23:36.surely that direct taxation pay a significant, if not the entire cost.
:23:36. > :23:39.Both parties need to contribute and employers as well by the way because
:23:39. > :23:45.everyone does benefit. But it is fair that it the stupt who does
:23:45. > :23:46.benefit -- student who does benefit significantly does pay a higher
:23:46. > :23:51.proportion. You have been talking to significantly does pay a higher
:23:51. > :23:58.the Government. You must have made your anxiety that the fees are
:23:58. > :24:06.inadequate plain to Government. Have they given you an indication that
:24:06. > :24:11.they would raise the fees in relation to inflation? We cannot go
:24:11. > :24:14.on being world-class in this country without access to more funding.
:24:14. > :24:18.And as far as you are aware the level of fees is not going to
:24:18. > :24:23.change? That's my impression at the moment. We would like to make sure
:24:23. > :24:28.that the Government recognises the case. But what is really important
:24:28. > :24:32.coming over is that the current repayment system does not deter
:24:32. > :24:38.poorer students. I don't accept it. Give the message... I don't accept
:24:38. > :24:43.that's the case. The fact that the proportion of pupils from relatively
:24:43. > :24:48.deprived backgrounds and under performing schools has not fallen is
:24:48. > :24:52.not simply a demonstration that the fees are not a deterrent. They are a
:24:52. > :24:55.deterrent to a large number of persons particularly those who are
:24:55. > :25:00.averse to acquiring debt and it is very well to say well, you don't
:25:00. > :25:05.have to pay now. You can pay later. For households which doesn't run
:25:05. > :25:08.mortgages and are not accustomed to running long-term debt that's a
:25:08. > :25:14.threat. To say there are bursaries as grants which you can have...
:25:14. > :25:18.Which there are. You have to apply before you can know whether you will
:25:18. > :25:22.get them. It remains a deterrent to work up that debt.
:25:22. > :25:27.Thank you very much. What's the BBC for? It was
:25:27. > :25:32.instructed that it had to inform educate, and entertain. But then the
:25:32. > :25:37.Sunday Sport could claim to be doing the same and doesn't require a tax
:25:37. > :25:43.to do so. After a series of snouts in troughs scandals among the
:25:43. > :25:47.management, the new Director-General announced a plan to refocus the
:25:47. > :25:52.organisation on drama and entertainment and the arts. There
:25:52. > :25:56.are new services. It seems that the BBC cannot see a media activity
:25:56. > :25:59.without wishing to get into it itself and with lots of lots of
:25:59. > :26:03.public money to spend. What if you could watch things
:26:03. > :26:09.before they were even on TV? It has been a year to forget for the BBC.
:26:09. > :26:13.Hardly surprising that Lord Hall used his first major speech since
:26:13. > :26:19.rejoining the organisation to outline his vision for the future
:26:19. > :26:26.rather than to lament its past mistakes. I want us to celebrate the
:26:26. > :26:32.best of British originality and even eccentricity. This is fundamental.
:26:32. > :26:37.Everything else depends upon it. It didn't sit well with everyone. An
:26:37. > :26:44.editorial in the Financial Times, hardly a hotbed of anti-BBC active
:26:44. > :26:48.vivm, lambasted Lord Hall's plans. It said the new Director-General
:26:48. > :26:52.should refocus the BBC on a narrower purpose and Lord Hall used his first
:26:52. > :26:58.major speech since starting the job to add to the list of BBC sidelines
:26:58. > :27:03.and on Lord Hall's commercial ambitions, if the BBC becomes a
:27:03. > :27:13.commercial media company, it must expect to be funded like one.
:27:13. > :27:15.With us now is John Gapp and James Purnell. I take it that you think
:27:15. > :27:22.With us now is John Gapp and James that the BBC should be doing things
:27:22. > :27:27.like Attenborough? Yes. And Radio 3? Yes and the Proms? Yes.
:27:27. > :27:33.What things shouldn't it be being then? I think I should make it clear
:27:33. > :27:38.that the FT and I believe the BBC should be there. We are not a
:27:38. > :27:43.Murdoch organisation that believes it should be abolished. It has a
:27:43. > :27:47.valuable purpose in British broadcasting, but it has a tendency
:27:47. > :27:51.to stray and empire build. So what shouldn't it be doing?
:27:51. > :27:55.That's an interesting question. That's a question... That you ought
:27:55. > :28:00.to answer. No the BBC fails to answer.
:28:00. > :28:05.You answer it, matey. OK. OK. I think that it should not be doing as
:28:05. > :28:12.much of the sort of programmes that anybody could be doing. Such as? You
:28:12. > :28:18.want me to edit the BBC? No, I want, you write editorials in the FT
:28:18. > :28:23.saying it is trying to do too much. Wh should it stop doing? Stop
:28:23. > :28:28.spreading itself too thin across a lot of light entertainment and do
:28:28. > :28:33.not need the BBC to produce them. What sorts of things? I just said,
:28:33. > :28:38.light entertainment, things that you could, one can often turn on the BBC
:28:39. > :28:41.and see programmes, the BBC talks about them being distinctive.
:28:41. > :28:47.What about Strictly Come Dancing? That's a fine programme, but it
:28:47. > :28:53.could be well produced by ITV. The Voice. How much did the BBC
:28:53. > :28:57.spend on the Voice? The danger with John's proposal... You are not
:28:57. > :29:03.answering the question either! The danger with John's proposal. You
:29:03. > :29:06.would end up with a BBC that FT readers loved and was funded by
:29:06. > :29:12.everyone else. The things they would get rid of would be Radio 1 and the
:29:12. > :29:16.Voice. The listen fee payers said we want more shows like the Voice and
:29:16. > :29:20.Strictly Come Dancing. So the justification is what?
:29:20. > :29:24.Everybody has to pay the licence fee. Everybody should be able to get
:29:24. > :29:27.something from it. Is that the argument? That's right. If you took
:29:27. > :29:31.out the shows that maybe the FT wouldn't want us having, young
:29:31. > :29:34.people would be getting much less from the BBC, but paying for it and
:29:34. > :29:38.that wouldn't be right and that's why the BBC worked. Everybody has to
:29:38. > :29:44.get something and we have to work really hard... That's wrong. James
:29:44. > :29:48.is arguing that we think there should be a more elite BBC. I am
:29:48. > :29:57.very well served. I listen to the radio. I watch the Great British
:29:57. > :30:01.Bake Off. The people I am concerned about is the people paying the money
:30:01. > :30:04.and are at a stretch and the things they want to watch would be provided
:30:04. > :30:07.anywhere. Taking a away from the services and
:30:07. > :30:12.the programmes, they enjoy the BBC for at the moment.
:30:12. > :30:19.Are you comfortable with 180,000 people being taken to court for not
:30:19. > :30:23.paying? It is a tax that's the most unpopular tax in Britain.
:30:23. > :30:27.Actually, the countries which have the most successful public service
:30:27. > :30:29.broadcasting have the most successful commercial broadcasting.
:30:29. > :30:33.broadcasting have the most It is true, if you look at the data,
:30:33. > :30:36.the countries that have the best public service broadcasting are
:30:36. > :30:39.Germany, us and have the best commercial broadcasting and for the
:30:39. > :30:45.reason we compete with etch auto other and bring the best out of each
:30:45. > :30:49.other. If you want to know which piece of
:30:49. > :30:54.music is playing. You pick up your phone and press the app and it tells
:30:54. > :30:59.you. The BBC proposes to produce something similar. Why? It will be a
:30:59. > :31:02.different things and lots of music streaming services have welcomed it
:31:02. > :31:04.because it is what we have done. Right back to the third programme,
:31:05. > :31:07.we have been saying here is something you didn't know about and
:31:07. > :31:11.you will love and that's what this application, the BBC Playlist will
:31:11. > :31:16.do. Why do you worry about it? That sort
:31:16. > :31:19.of application? I am more worried about the point James was making
:31:19. > :31:22.earlier. He was saying that commercial and public go alongside
:31:22. > :31:27.each other. I think they can do so and the BBC can play a cornerstone
:31:27. > :31:31.role. It must concern the BBC that the US which is one of the weakest
:31:31. > :31:37.public broadcasters produces one of the strongest dramas.
:31:37. > :31:39.The US is a big market that other countries have to have a certain
:31:39. > :31:43.amount of public intervention to compete. We should be saying the BBC
:31:43. > :31:50.is a brilliant thing about Britain. We have an amazing industry. It is
:31:50. > :31:54.partly to do with the BBC and by having the BBC... He has been
:31:54. > :31:58.supportive. You are very supportive. I can't understand why James who was
:31:58. > :32:02.a Government minister five years ago, questioned whether or not the
:32:02. > :32:06.BBC should receive all of the licence fee money or whether the BBC
:32:06. > :32:08.should be the definition of what is public service broadcasting or
:32:08. > :32:13.whether or not other people should public service broadcasting or
:32:13. > :32:22.be allowed? A man who questions it... We are the only country other
:32:22. > :32:33.than America who is the net exporter of music and drama.
:32:33. > :32:35.Now, let's Jeremy Deller, the artist who represented Britain at the
:32:36. > :32:39.Venice Bienalle. He is reckoned to be one of the country's most
:32:39. > :32:42.politically engaged artists. In the past, his work has touched on
:32:42. > :32:45.subjects as divergent as the miners' strike and Depeche Mode. His new
:32:45. > :32:47.exhibition, which opens this weekend in Manchester, tackles the
:32:47. > :32:52.Industrial Revolution and its resonances today. Ahead of it we
:32:52. > :32:55.asked him to make a film with us. Here's a taste of it. You can see
:32:56. > :32:57.the full version on our website. If you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy
:32:58. > :33:09.will be here afterwards to explain! you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy
:33:09. > :33:13.Meet Sheffield, smoke and grime. Parliamentary report 1843. Sheffield
:33:13. > :33:18.is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw. One cannot
:33:18. > :33:23.be long in the town without experiencing the necessary
:33:23. > :33:27.inhalation of soot which accumulates in the lungs and its baneful effects
:33:27. > :33:33.are experienced by all who are not accustomed to it. There are however,
:33:33. > :33:36.numbers of persons in Sheffield who think the smoke healthy.
:33:36. > :33:41.numbers of persons in Sheffield who I am not one of them.
:33:41. > :33:47.It always used to get on my nerves when they said Sheffield was a steel
:33:47. > :33:52.city. The first time it hit me, I guess, there was this museum on the
:33:52. > :33:54.outskirts of Sheffield which was a really big rolling mill or
:33:54. > :34:00.something. I was watching this process and suddenly like half-way
:34:00. > :34:06.through it, I started feeling a bit tearful. Imagine being in this big
:34:06. > :34:10.space, a big dark place with all this fire flying around and I mean
:34:10. > :34:18.in a way, you know, it is like you are in hell or something. From that
:34:18. > :34:21.point, I suppose, it made me think don't dish the steel. It gave the
:34:21. > :34:38.Sheffield its personality, you know. I believe that that rock'n'roll
:34:38. > :34:43.liberated people from the post-war generation and heavy metal music
:34:43. > :34:46.became a recreation of the sights and sounds of industry for its young
:34:46. > :34:53.audience, most of whom would never work in a factory.
:34:53. > :34:59.Heavy metal is a Requiem for an industrial culture. A way of coping
:34:59. > :35:04.with its loss. There is a slight awkwardness to it
:35:04. > :35:07.as well. You have these schoolchildren looking smart and
:35:07. > :35:11.they are reading out accounts by children their own age basically of
:35:11. > :35:24.being maltreated in the factory, of having to do harsh jobs and so on.
:35:24. > :35:31.I don't think sing in the dark. I am a trapper in the pit. It does not
:35:31. > :35:36.tire me. I am scared. Sometimes I see when I have a light, but not in
:35:36. > :35:45.the dark. I dare not sing then. I don't like being in the pit. I go to
:35:45. > :35:52.Sunday school and read. I don't know why Jesus came to earth and I don't
:35:52. > :35:57.know why he died. I would like to be at school it is far better than in
:35:57. > :36:00.the pit. I think I would miss the expectations we have now and the
:36:00. > :36:04.confidence in sort of, you know, well, that's not right so we're
:36:04. > :36:08.going to change it, but you would either lose yourself in hopelessness
:36:08. > :36:11.or just sort of know that it wasn't right and have to fight against it
:36:11. > :36:22.because there wasn't anyone listening.
:36:22. > :36:28.This is me with my sisters at the age of six or seven wearing a Slade
:36:28. > :36:33.T-shirt. I was like the biggest Slade fan in the world. For Noddy to
:36:33. > :36:36.come here to my flat and talk about Industrial Revolution. Obviously,
:36:36. > :36:41.when I was six, I knew he would be coming to my flat when I was in my
:36:41. > :36:48.40s, but it is kind of weird for him to be here. How are you? Knackered
:36:48. > :36:52.off them stairs. I can't go up them stairs at my age. It has been said
:36:52. > :36:59.that the Black Country produced a lot of great rock singers, Ozzy
:36:59. > :37:01.Osborne, Robert Plant and they reckon it was to do with the
:37:01. > :37:04.industry and the noise of the reckon it was to do with the
:37:04. > :37:06.factories. What I like about Victorian writing is the fact that
:37:06. > :37:11.the word on the page makes it sound Victorian writing is the fact that
:37:11. > :37:15.like it is, if you are sitting amongst it. This reading is from a
:37:15. > :37:23.description of the Black Country where I'm from by the engineer James
:37:23. > :37:28.Naismith written in 1830. The Black Country is anything but picturesque.
:37:28. > :37:33.The Earth seems to have been turned inside out. Its end trials are
:37:33. > :37:37.strewn about. By day and by night, the country is glowing with fire and
:37:38. > :37:42.smoke of the iron works hovers over it. There is a rumbling and clanking
:37:42. > :37:47.of n forges and rolling mills. it. There is a rumbling and clanking
:37:47. > :37:51.Workmen covered with smut and with fierce wide eyes, are seen moving
:37:51. > :38:17.amongst the glowing iron and the dull thud of forge hammers.
:38:17. > :38:26.Sth is a sound recording afloom from a mill in Lancashire. The rhythms of
:38:26. > :38:31.the factory and dance music are not so far removed. The first acid house
:38:31. > :38:35.parties took place in warehouses and former factories. So where people
:38:35. > :38:41.once worked, they were dancing on the remains of the industrial base.
:38:41. > :39:04.Being deafened by music rather than the machines.
:39:04. > :39:12.Life of a factory boy. In reality, there were no regular hours. Masters
:39:12. > :39:15.and managers did with us as they liked. The clocks at the factories
:39:15. > :39:19.were often put forward in the morning and back at night and
:39:19. > :39:25.instead of being instruments of measurements of time, they were used
:39:25. > :39:28.as cloaks for oppressio Though this was known amongst all hands, all
:39:28. > :39:35.were afraid to speak and the workmen was afraid to carry a watch as it
:39:35. > :39:39.was no uncommon event to dismiss anyone who presumed to know too
:39:39. > :39:43.much. When you are on a zero hours
:39:43. > :39:48.contract, you never really knew your hours. So how get more hours? It is
:39:48. > :39:52.a case of, I go to them. These are the hours I can do. Please give me
:39:52. > :39:56.as many as you can and then they come back to me, but obviously
:39:56. > :39:59.everyone is doing the same thingment we are fighting for the hours. There
:39:59. > :40:07.is only so many hours they can hand out at the shop. So some win, some
:40:07. > :40:11.lose. Cap canon Parkinson, on the
:40:11. > :40:13.conditions of the people in Manchester.
:40:13. > :40:18.I worked in the mill. Me mum worked in the mill. My family always worked
:40:18. > :40:25.in the mills. How is where you have grown up affected your work? Your
:40:25. > :40:30.career? I think it has, it is the main kernel of everything I do. I
:40:30. > :40:33.think of all the choices I make and of everything I do. There is no town
:40:33. > :40:39.in the world where the distance between the rich and the poor is so
:40:39. > :40:47.great. Or the barrier between them so difficult to be crossed. I once
:40:47. > :40:51.ntured to designate the tone of Dunkirk town of Manchester the most
:40:51. > :40:57.aristocratic town in England and in the sense in which the expression
:40:57. > :41:03.was used. There is far less personal communication between the master
:41:03. > :41:06.cotton spinner and his workman than there is between the Duke of
:41:07. > :41:12.Wellington and the humblest labourer on his estate. I mentioned this not
:41:12. > :41:22.as a matter of blame, but I state it simply as a fact. In 1973 the
:41:22. > :41:29.wrestler went back to the mine he worked in as a young person and had
:41:29. > :41:33.his photograph taken request his -- and had his photograph taken. There
:41:33. > :41:36.is an image of a tense relationship between father and son, but this is
:41:36. > :41:41.the most important photograph taken after the war as it shows a country
:41:41. > :41:48.trying to come to terms with itself, with its new role in world being
:41:48. > :41:53.based on services and entertainment. 100 years before, in 1873, a song
:41:53. > :42:00.was written about what the future might be like. Now they tell us this
:42:00. > :42:03.world is now at an end # But who prove to its country is
:42:03. > :42:09.what I intend # In a song I wrote in you will see
:42:09. > :42:13.# Everyone will be rich, there will be no need to beg
:42:13. > :42:18.# No stump up and down with an old wooden leg
:42:18. > :42:21.# In your limbs are blown off, the doctors will replace your new ones
:42:21. > :42:25.with ease # The children will feed them with
:42:25. > :42:31.nutmegs and they will grow to such a size you can tell
:42:31. > :42:37.# They can look down into hell # Oh dear, oh dear, what things you
:42:37. > :42:41.will s # Well, Jeremy Deller is here now.
:42:41. > :42:45.What is it really that fascinates you about Industrial Revolution?
:42:45. > :42:49.I think it was a time of immense change. We were the first country to
:42:49. > :42:53.industrialise and then we were the first to deindustrialise so we have
:42:53. > :42:57.industrialise and then we were the seen the spectrum of that and it
:42:57. > :42:59.affected us of how we live now in our cities and culture and music and
:42:59. > :43:03.diet. We are creatures of the Industrial
:43:03. > :43:07.Revolution, aren't we? Yes. Do you think we have lost anything
:43:07. > :43:13.as a consequence of deindustrialising in this country? I
:43:13. > :43:18.think we have probably lost communal values and beliefs, but also we have
:43:18. > :43:21.lost very poor working conditions. I think maybe we have lost some part
:43:21. > :43:26.of our identity. That's maybe one thing.
:43:26. > :43:30.The fact is that in the days when we had a manufacturing industry after
:43:30. > :43:34.Industrial Revolution, we made things. We don't really make things
:43:34. > :43:38.anymore, do we? No, we don't. We tried. I mean we have tried since
:43:38. > :43:43.and obviously to make other things. I mean, we have worked in services
:43:43. > :43:47.and digital economy and that's where a lot of people are employed. That
:43:47. > :43:51.woman worked in a shop. We have tried to, like I said, we were the
:43:51. > :43:55.first to deindustrialise, we have tried to work out what to do with
:43:55. > :44:00.ourselves as a nation. The woman you talked to in that
:44:00. > :44:04.film, who was on a zero hours contract. Are you making a
:44:04. > :44:10.comparison there about employment conditions? I think in a way, I am.
:44:10. > :44:15.I think people, obviously she has few rights because of the contract
:44:15. > :44:18.she is on and you see, obviously in Industrial Revolution, workers had
:44:18. > :44:20.no rights and there seems to be that might be happening. That maybe
:44:20. > :44:24.creeping back with employers getting the upper hand on employees. And
:44:24. > :44:28.making your working conditions less stable and that's what she spoke to
:44:28. > :44:33.us about. As you know, this end of the media,
:44:33. > :44:42.we only ask two questions about art, one is it art? Who is it wor it? Why
:44:42. > :44:45.is an experience like this that you have put together, you have curated,
:44:45. > :44:49.I suppose... Yeah. Why is it art? Well, it might not
:44:49. > :44:55.be, but if you want it to be art, it can be art. Art is just another way
:44:55. > :44:59.of looking at the world and doing something different from how a
:44:59. > :45:03.traditional curator would do something. My show mixes things up.
:45:03. > :45:06.It feels like that as well. So it is just a different way of doing
:45:06. > :45:11.something. But if people don't think it is art, it doesn't bother me, as
:45:11. > :45:13.long as they like what they see or are stimulated by it. That's
:45:13. > :45:18.important. This isn't drawing or painting or
:45:18. > :45:22.sculpture or anything? No. No. Within the show there are those
:45:22. > :45:24.things, but no, I'm just putting these together and showing them in
:45:24. > :45:29.an unusual way. And why is that art? Well, like I
:45:29. > :45:33.said, it might not be. It is just something I find interesting. It is
:45:33. > :45:40.where my skill, if that's the right word, lies is in taking a things and
:45:40. > :45:45.putting them together in these ways. But it can be art.
:45:45. > :45:51.Is it possible this sort of exercise without public funding? Yeah. It is.
:45:51. > :45:54.This is publicly funded. Lots of things are possible without public
:45:54. > :45:57.funding believe me. Do you think the State plays too big
:45:57. > :46:03.a role in the funding of the arts? Not at all. I am glad the State has
:46:03. > :46:08.a role in funding of art. Like the American model, if you leave it to
:46:08. > :46:13.private people with money, it tends to change the nature of the art
:46:13. > :46:16.that's made and it, there is like a lack of balance within the art world
:46:16. > :46:20.because of that. What do you mean? Well, you just end
:46:20. > :46:25.up with things that might please a certain kind of person and might not
:46:25. > :46:28.question certain things and a more in line with those people's tastes
:46:28. > :46:30.rather than the general tastes. Jeremy Deller, thanks. Come back
:46:30. > :46:37.soon. Thank you.
:46:37. > :46:44.The BBC's Director-General announced plans for a BBC One Plus One channel
:46:44. > :46:48.that broadcasts what was on BBC One an hour ago! Not to be outdone, and
:46:48. > :46:55.always looking to please the boss, tonight we launch our own Newsnight
:46:55. > :47:01.Plus One channel. Here we were an hour ago! Good night.