:00:00. > :00:09.18,000 Poles will pitch up to support their national football team
:00:10. > :00:13.at Wembley tomorrow. Brussels says we should welcome East European
:00:14. > :00:18.migrants. The Government says too many have access to benefits. So are
:00:19. > :00:21.these young Poles the star players for our economy's future or should
:00:22. > :00:26.we instead worry about overseas signings idling on the bench?
:00:27. > :00:29.50 years after Please Please Me, Paul McCartney is still at it, with
:00:30. > :00:36.a new album, but why might kids today listen to old people's music?
:00:37. > :00:45.The generation gap that opened in the 1960s wasn't one of many, it was
:00:46. > :00:48.unique. The Russian man blamed for murdering
:00:49. > :01:01.this Russian lawyer in a Russian prison sues for defamation in
:01:02. > :01:06.Britain and loses. What is good art? How do you know? Grayson Perry
:01:07. > :01:13.sprinkles stardust on the Raith lectures and on us.
:01:14. > :01:18.Good evening. The received wisdom about Polish
:01:19. > :01:21.immigrants in particular is that they are prepared to work like
:01:22. > :01:25.Trojans, but according to a report by the European Commission published
:01:26. > :01:32.today in 2012 there were more than 600,000 economically non active EU
:01:33. > :01:35.migrants in Britain. Although that figure includes children, pensioners
:01:36. > :01:38.and students. Those who are eligible for work are also eligible for
:01:39. > :01:41.benefits under something called the habitual residence test and the
:01:42. > :01:46.Government say it is determined to tighten the test. The EU says fewer
:01:47. > :01:49.migrants make use of public services compared with the native population
:01:50. > :01:53.so is immigration the best way to drive the economy or is it a drain
:01:54. > :01:56.on the public purse? Here's Allan Little.
:01:57. > :02:01.In some South London parks the football coaching is in Polish.
:02:02. > :02:07.The children are born to Polish parents and into a community at the
:02:08. > :02:10.heart of a very British and very enduring anxiety. There are 1.7
:02:11. > :02:13.million migrants from the EU living in Britain. There will be so many
:02:14. > :02:18.Poles at tomorrow's match that it will feel more like a local derby
:02:19. > :02:25.than an England home game. For the 18,000 Polish fans, won't be
:02:26. > :02:30.visitors, they will be locals. So were you born here? Yes. So when you
:02:31. > :02:38.grow up, you could play football for Poland or England? Yes.
:02:39. > :02:42.Which would you prefer? England. We are from Poland.
:02:43. > :02:47.They maybe from Poland, but it takes less than a generation for new,
:02:48. > :02:51.hybrid national identities to settle and take root. This generation are
:02:52. > :02:55.as British as they are Polish, but it is not so easy for recent
:02:56. > :02:58.arrivals to claim benefits. You can't get off the bus and walk into
:02:59. > :03:02.the dole office. You have to demonstrate that you are actually
:03:03. > :03:05.resident here, by meeting the conditions of the Government's
:03:06. > :03:10.so-called residency test. The European Commission wants that test
:03:11. > :03:13.scrapped because it says it discriminates against non-British
:03:14. > :03:18.nationals. And it is taking a the British Government to court to try
:03:19. > :03:24.to force the issue. Our own oi I assessments -- our own
:03:25. > :03:27.assessments does stop people claiming benefits that could
:03:28. > :03:30.otherwise be working and not being on benefits and the commission are
:03:31. > :03:33.trying to get us to change that and I am refusing.
:03:34. > :03:38.The European Commission is taking a the UK to court and is taking a
:03:39. > :03:43.legal proceedings. What will the consequences with if
:03:44. > :03:48.that's successful? If the UK were to lose that right to reside, the test
:03:49. > :03:53.case, I think there would be a real concern that the UK's safeguards for
:03:54. > :03:58.its welfare system would be watered down and that has practical
:03:59. > :04:02.implications. While welfare tourism isn't a problem at the moment, it
:04:03. > :04:07.might increase the incentives for minorities to abuse the system. It
:04:08. > :04:09.would be a huge PR disaster from the European Union. Immigration is a
:04:10. > :04:14.sensitive issue. The European Commission says
:04:15. > :04:17.so-called benefit tourism in Britain is exaggerated. But the commission
:04:18. > :04:22.itself has released a report that reveals that the number of EU
:04:23. > :04:28.migrants here who are not economically active is surprisingly
:04:29. > :04:34.high. Nearly one in three. In the UK there are over 600,000 so-called EU
:04:35. > :04:39.non actives, that's 1. 2% of the population. The average across
:04:40. > :04:44.Europe is 1%. The study looked at healthcare spending. On average,
:04:45. > :04:49.European countries spend 0.2% of their health budgets on non active
:04:50. > :04:55.EU migrants. In Britain the figures rises to between 0.7% and 0.1%. The
:04:56. > :05:02.study found immigration flows are linked to economic factors. There
:05:03. > :05:05.was an crease in France, German at UK, but numbers fell in Ireland,
:05:06. > :05:11.Spain and Italy where the economy was hit harder by the crash.
:05:12. > :05:15.Most European migrants here work and pay their taxes. You are still less
:05:16. > :05:19.likely to be unemployed if you are a mids grant than if you were born
:05:20. > :05:23.here. Even so, one British newspaper called the EU Commissioner who is
:05:24. > :05:27.taking a Britain to court the EU mandarin fighting for pay outs to
:05:28. > :05:34.migrants. Today, he told me that was nonsense.
:05:35. > :05:40.It is very important to interpret the figures correctly. We should not
:05:41. > :05:45.call the non actives unemployed because the real figure for
:05:46. > :05:51.unemployed EU migrants in the United Kingdom is around 60,000. So it is a
:05:52. > :05:58.relatively low number. There are many people who are non active. They
:05:59. > :06:01.might be family members of active people who are in employment in the
:06:02. > :06:07.UK and this is legitimate. There is no doubt though about
:06:08. > :06:10.public opinion. All the poles show there is a growing feeling that it
:06:11. > :06:14.the Government is not in control of immigration. That could further
:06:15. > :06:18.damage the case for Britain as a member of the European Union and it
:06:19. > :06:23.might also compromise the public's long-term confidence in a welfare
:06:24. > :06:26.system that is based on universal entitlement. For that he system, of
:06:27. > :06:31.welfare for all at the point of need, was designed to serve the
:06:32. > :06:38.Britain of the 1940s. Can it endure in the more globalised, more mobile,
:06:39. > :06:39.more open and borderless 21st century that this generation
:06:40. > :06:51.inherits? Raab is a Conservative MP who has
:06:52. > :06:54.written about benefit tourism. Jonathan Portes is director of the
:06:55. > :06:57.National Institute for Economic and Social Research and Magda Harvey, a
:06:58. > :06:59.polish entrepreneur, who runs the Polish Specialities delicatessen.
:07:00. > :07:02.The Government never produced any hard evidence that benefit tourism
:07:03. > :07:06.is a problem? There is no hard data and that's part of the problem.
:07:07. > :07:12.Whether it is the 60,000 estimated EU nationals claiming Jobseeker's
:07:13. > :07:14.Allowance or the 600,000 economically inactive, the British
:07:15. > :07:20.taxpayer is spending billions on welfare for a rising number of EU
:07:21. > :07:29.migrants. Now, my view is look... What makes you so sure that incoming
:07:30. > :07:33.migrants are more likely to claim on benefit than existing British
:07:34. > :07:38.nationals? What you do is end up stoking this? We have statistics.
:07:39. > :07:44.Look, I have got no doubt. I am the son of a he Czech father and my wife
:07:45. > :07:49.is Brazilian. The majority of people who come from abroad, contribute. We
:07:50. > :07:53.have a home-grown depend ovensy problem, but that's irrelevant. If
:07:54. > :07:56.you are a British taxpayer and the British public, you want to attract
:07:57. > :08:01.people who come here with something to contribute. But you want to limit
:08:02. > :08:05.those who aren't and we can do both and that's what this debate ought to
:08:06. > :08:10.be about and we shouldn't shy away from it.
:08:11. > :08:17.If somebody comes well qualified from an Eastern European country.
:08:18. > :08:24.There is resentment against somebody who is from the UK and they get it?
:08:25. > :08:29.I don't believe they will go to a strange country and claim benefit
:08:30. > :08:34.straightaway. They can't claim benefit unless they prove residency?
:08:35. > :08:38.I don't people are really migrating to claim benefits. First of all,
:08:39. > :08:42.they are emigrating to look for the jobs and if they don't see the
:08:43. > :08:44.chance, a fair chance of getting the job, they wouldn't go to the
:08:45. > :08:49.country. When you saw the statistics there of
:08:50. > :08:54.health spending, it is more in Britain than in other European
:08:55. > :08:58.countries on migrant workers? Well, I don't know how those statistics
:08:59. > :09:03.are being worked out because whenever I go to hospital and nobody
:09:04. > :09:08.is asking me really what nationality I am, and from my experience most of
:09:09. > :09:13.the, I will talk about the Poles, most Poles when they go to visit the
:09:14. > :09:18.families or go back to Poland, they go for the health check over there.
:09:19. > :09:20.Not here. Unfortunately, we don't believe in the British health
:09:21. > :09:27.system. We have got a situation where there
:09:28. > :09:31.is lots of British retirees in Spain draining the Spanish system as well?
:09:32. > :09:35.Well, the fact of the matter, if you compare, I think people are
:09:36. > :09:40.attracted by jobs here. Unemployment is lower here than in Poland. Wages
:09:41. > :09:44.are higher and also in work benefits are high. If you compare child
:09:45. > :09:50.benefit, it is four times more generous here.
:09:51. > :09:55.We have got 600, according this this report from the EU, we have got
:09:56. > :09:58.600,000 people... Including pensioners, students and children?
:09:59. > :10:04.People who are economically inactive using the NHS. And that's 50%
:10:05. > :10:09.higher... How do you, it is a difficult thing to do, isn't it? To
:10:10. > :10:13.decide how you stop certain people coming. Presumably, they are the
:10:14. > :10:18.engine of the economy? We are not talking about necessarily the same
:10:19. > :10:23.people. Potentially the engine of the economy. But what would you
:10:24. > :10:27.actually do? How would you do it? Well, you want to have a
:10:28. > :10:30.points-based system and we will probably find we have to move
:10:31. > :10:34.towards a sort of contributions based approach to both welfare and
:10:35. > :10:38.NHS... So that means a change in European law? No, that wouldn't. The
:10:39. > :10:44.Germans have something more akin to that. I think at EU law level, if
:10:45. > :10:47.you ask the British people, the number one thing they would like to
:10:48. > :10:53.see renegotiated in Britain's relationship with the EU is the free
:10:54. > :10:56.movement rules so this that we have this conditionality. We want to
:10:57. > :11:01.attract the best and the brightest, but we want them to be self reliant.
:11:02. > :11:07.Is there a sense that European migrants are now feeling that they
:11:08. > :11:12.are not wanted? I think it has always been that that migrants were
:11:13. > :11:15.not wanted. But they were always used and they were useful. That's
:11:16. > :11:22.why they were coming and from my point of view, I think that there
:11:23. > :11:25.are many positive migrants who are coming here to work and they are
:11:26. > :11:28.paying their taxes and I am very much for the benefits only for
:11:29. > :11:33.people who contribute to the economy. I am against people who are
:11:34. > :11:37.going abroad and claiming benefits or even in their own country,
:11:38. > :11:41.claiming benefits and not contributing to the society if they
:11:42. > :11:48.don't pay taxes, they can't claim. Thank you very much indeed.
:11:49. > :11:54.Today the Nobel committee gave their prize in economics to three
:11:55. > :11:59.different economists. One for proving that markers is always
:12:00. > :12:06.rational and efficient and a third who proved it was impossible to
:12:07. > :12:15.tell. I spoke to one of them. He was the one who thought markets weren't
:12:16. > :12:20.always rational. Congratulations. Thank you.
:12:21. > :12:28.What are we meant to think when we think of this prize. Three
:12:29. > :12:36.economists each of whom contradict the other? Well, notably one is
:12:37. > :12:42.famous for testing and rejecting some of his own models. We are in
:12:43. > :12:46.con currency on kosh concurrence on that. It is a difference in
:12:47. > :12:51.philosophy and how you interpret problems. The Chicago School of
:12:52. > :12:58.People think there must be a good explanation for anything that looks
:12:59. > :13:05.anomalous and it is hard to prove that wrong. It becomes an underlying
:13:06. > :13:12.philosophical difference. You take a different view? I am
:13:13. > :13:18.married to a psychologist! That has affected me! Do you think that in
:13:19. > :13:26.economics it is actually ever possible to be absolutely right?
:13:27. > :13:30.Well, Marshall said economics is not an exact science and there is a deep
:13:31. > :13:37.wisdom in what he said, the problem with economics we are describing
:13:38. > :13:41.people and people, they change their mind. There is something about
:13:42. > :13:44.people that is different from any physical phenomenon. They can do it
:13:45. > :13:49.despite you and change their mind and do something different.
:13:50. > :13:54.One thing you did predict was the howing bubble -- housing bubble.
:13:55. > :13:59.What's the your prediction, will it happen again? In London and Los
:14:00. > :14:03.Angeles, we are seeing markets heating up. There is a question of
:14:04. > :14:08.whether it will happen again and I couldn't rule it out. I think people
:14:09. > :14:11.have got more speculative in their thinking and they could make
:14:12. > :14:15.something like that happen. Here, we are seeing as you say,
:14:16. > :14:19.things hotting up and the Government is giving cheap money. I mean very
:14:20. > :14:26.cheap money for house buyers and money up to ?600,000. People are
:14:27. > :14:31.embracing it. It is as if, well let's get going again. Gung that
:14:32. > :14:35.then holds the -- do you think that then holds the danger of a housing
:14:36. > :14:39.bubble in London? When you have easy credit that helps promote a bubble.
:14:40. > :14:44.I just don't think that the public is as gullible this time. It won't
:14:45. > :14:49.be as bad this time. But it does look like, I know the US better. It
:14:50. > :14:55.looks somewhat like a bubblement prices are going up fast and there
:14:56. > :15:00.are some enthusiasts who are excited. It is just not, I think
:15:01. > :15:05.what we saw that led to this crisis was a rarity. A once-in-a-lifetime
:15:06. > :15:10.big event. That's my guess. It won't be as big.
:15:11. > :15:16.Let's do guessing then about the US Government defoughting on Thursday
:15:17. > :15:21.or -- defaulting on Thursday or not. What's your best guess? The last
:15:22. > :15:28.time we came close was in 2011 and Congress agreed in the last minute
:15:29. > :15:33.and then it still resulted however in a default, not a default, a
:15:34. > :15:38.downgrading of our US debt and a lot of turmoil in the markets. Every
:15:39. > :15:42.time, it is different. My guess is they won't default and even if they
:15:43. > :15:49.did, it would be short-term. It would be corrected soon. A short
:15:50. > :15:52.default as it were holds no dangers for America or the world? The
:15:53. > :16:00.American people would be upset to see that happen. It is a matter of
:16:01. > :16:03.honour and if it dz are did -- if it does happen, it will have some
:16:04. > :16:07.damage, but I am thinking that it will probably be corrected soon
:16:08. > :16:11.enough that it is something for the history books. That means people
:16:12. > :16:15.won't remember it as a major default. It might have been a delay
:16:16. > :16:21.over a couple of days or something and it will be forgotten. Thank you
:16:22. > :16:28.very much indeed. My pleasure.
:16:29. > :16:33.50 years after the first Beatles album in 1963 Paul McCartney
:16:34. > :16:36.releases his 16th solo album titled New. It is his first album of new
:16:37. > :16:43.songs in six years. It coincides with the publication of a door
:16:44. > :16:58.stopper of a new biography about The Beatles by mark. Since then the
:16:59. > :17:06.yawning generation gap that was exposed has closed. At least that is
:17:07. > :17:24.what Danny Finkelstein thinks. We asked him to explain.
:17:25. > :17:28.# She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah # I thought it was horrific and
:17:29. > :17:32.nauseating because it was in the true sense barbaric.
:17:33. > :17:40.It was a massive social upheaval. It was the start of an era, the pop
:17:41. > :17:43.era. The 60s was not just a musical revolution, but a cultural and
:17:44. > :17:49.political one too. Come on in. This year, when Margaret
:17:50. > :17:52.Thatcher died it was the last in a long line of Prime Ministers whose
:17:53. > :17:56.politics were shaped by their experience as adults of a Second
:17:57. > :18:01.World War. Now we live in a consumer culture framed by the 60s, whose
:18:02. > :18:15.music and politics were forever changed by what happened after The
:18:16. > :18:18.Beatles released their first LP. Pop music began in Liverpool because
:18:19. > :18:22.it was a port town and the first place to get new records from
:18:23. > :18:26.America. This revolution was about teenage prosperity, new mass
:18:27. > :18:30.communications technology, demographics and a post-war baby
:18:31. > :18:34.boom which tipped social power to the young. There was the end of
:18:35. > :18:42.National Service, there was the start of globalisation. It is very
:18:43. > :18:47.hard to overestimate The Beatles importance. They were working class
:18:48. > :18:55.which was almost unheard of and before The Beatles you had Billy
:18:56. > :19:00.Furey and he wouldn't speak because he was scared people wouldn't
:19:01. > :19:04.understand a word he was saying and The Beatles sounded as Scouse as
:19:05. > :19:09.they could. They worked in so many different areas. They were
:19:10. > :19:15.experimental. Every record they made was an advance of the previous one.
:19:16. > :19:22.Pop culture broke class barriers and lapped at the feet of traditional
:19:23. > :19:30.institutions and was the soundtrack for sexual liberation and what it
:19:31. > :19:35.changed as form, kept on inhib baiting, but didn't go away. Here is
:19:36. > :19:45.the great pop artist, Peter Blake. It is like a love shop. People said
:19:46. > :19:53.why do you stick the things on? Why don't you paint them? When I paint
:19:54. > :20:07.them, they say why do you bother to paint them, why didn't you just
:20:08. > :20:14.stick them on? Some of the student antics of the
:20:15. > :20:23.60s may look absurd now. We believe in the appropriation of private
:20:24. > :20:27.property. It is just, these are the bare essentials.
:20:28. > :20:40.The end of difference was here to stay.
:20:41. > :20:44.In the 60s, even once the power of pop culture had become clear, the
:20:45. > :20:49.idea was that a generation gap had opened, they would keep repeating
:20:50. > :20:52.itself, each generation would find their parents baffling and their
:20:53. > :20:56.musical taste terrible. The pop stars of the 60, people like
:20:57. > :21:01.McCartney would stop making records and touring, a rockstar couldn't be
:21:02. > :21:05.over 30. Decades later, things look different. The generation gap that
:21:06. > :21:10.opened in the 1960s wasn't as it turned out one of many, it was
:21:11. > :21:15.unique. A gap had opened up that separated those whose main political
:21:16. > :21:19.cultural point of reference was the Second World War from us. From those
:21:20. > :21:34.whose main political cultural point of reference was the pop culture of
:21:35. > :21:40.the 1960s and after. Had has been a hard day's night #
:21:41. > :21:48.The music of the 60s have survived. Young people, teenagers, listened to
:21:49. > :21:54.the Beatles and politics has been forever changed. The generational
:21:55. > :21:58.shift in the 60s was greater than anything we have seen since. You
:21:59. > :22:04.could look at punk or Margaret Thatcher coming to power and huge
:22:05. > :22:07.cultural jumps. The 60s, it feels like everything happened at the same
:22:08. > :22:11.time. Pop art. The world of the popular
:22:12. > :22:20.imagination. The world of film stars.
:22:21. > :22:27.Politics is as much generational as ideological. We are all children of
:22:28. > :22:34.the 60s. This idea if you use contraceptives, you are likely to
:22:35. > :22:39.run off and have affairs with everybody. It was just ridiculous.
:22:40. > :22:43.There was a generation gap, but just one and we live on the other side of
:22:44. > :22:49.it. We are all the same in which everybody lives whether we like it
:22:50. > :22:55.or not. To talk about that film is Danny
:22:56. > :22:58.Finkelstein himself. Danny, surely there is a massive difference
:22:59. > :23:03.between the generation and the generation of the 60s. They have no
:23:04. > :23:08.knowledge of the Cold War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, Margaret
:23:09. > :23:12.Thatcher. Now, it is the internet. We didn't have that? No one, is
:23:13. > :23:15.arguing there haven't been any changes. The question is whether or
:23:16. > :23:21.not the frame of reference was set by that extremely powerful change.
:23:22. > :23:28.If you look at the politicians whose life experience was before the 1960s
:23:29. > :23:31.who became adults and distinguish between them and the politician who
:23:32. > :23:35.came afterwards, you can see this big change in social class, it is
:23:36. > :23:39.not just the question of issues, but in attitudes and in social, in the
:23:40. > :23:46.social atmosphere. Do you see that after the 50s, it
:23:47. > :23:51.made a massive difference. The recline of religion? The more I
:23:52. > :23:58.think about it, the more I agree with you. A lot of the changes were
:23:59. > :24:06.short-lived and flaky. The whole Beatlemania and notion it issued --
:24:07. > :24:09.ushered in this sexually permissive era. There were changes, but those
:24:10. > :24:18.were mainly to do with the pill and to do with women working and the
:24:19. > :24:25.rhetoric around free love and communes. That was limited to a
:24:26. > :24:28.particular part of society? It was short-lived. Some of our parents
:24:29. > :24:41.were in that mould. Most of our parents weren't.
:24:42. > :24:51.Was your mum a hippie? My mum was a bit bo-ho, my dad was a lot bo-ho.
:24:52. > :24:53.I don't think the actual rhetoric of the time really amounted to very
:24:54. > :24:57.much. Do you think now that there is going
:24:58. > :25:02.to be, what will be a defining gap will be what happened over the last
:25:03. > :25:06.three or four years and drinking at the well of everything the parents
:25:07. > :25:16.left empty would be the crash and the recession. This generation are
:25:17. > :25:20.suffering because of the excesses and of the previous generation? I
:25:21. > :25:25.think politics is very much generational. So even quite small
:25:26. > :25:28.changes in generation make quite a big difference in politics and you
:25:29. > :25:32.can look at the way generations develop and understand more about
:25:33. > :25:36.politics probably than just by looking at ideas. However, I think
:25:37. > :25:40.when you have got to look at big cohorts and one of the reasons why
:25:41. > :25:47.the 60s made a difference is because of the demotics, the baby boom. One
:25:48. > :25:52.of the points made in the book about The Beatles, National Service ended
:25:53. > :25:55.before The Beatles made their first appearance and so they were the
:25:56. > :25:59.first generation that didn't go into the Army. That made a big difference
:26:00. > :26:03.to their whole way of looking at work.
:26:04. > :26:09.-- at the world. People are less likely to vote
:26:10. > :26:15.tribally. That's a big change. There is more of a break down of those
:26:16. > :26:20.kind of lines? Because of a consumer society rather than a producer one
:26:21. > :26:24.pcht We always talk about the baby boomers and we adescribe the fact
:26:25. > :26:27.there is a massive gap of wealth between one again raugs and the
:26:28. > :26:33.next, but really the baby boomers were as you showed with the clip,
:26:34. > :26:36.incredibly well-versed in very radical political thought and what
:26:37. > :26:45.really divided the generations in terms of their money is a
:26:46. > :26:51.neoliberal, end of ideology. What about the riots though? The riots
:26:52. > :26:54.are the end point of this. What do you do when your identity is rooted
:26:55. > :26:59.in your consumption, but you have got nothing to consume with? Well,
:27:00. > :27:03.maybe that's the thing that binds the generation. The idea that we
:27:04. > :27:08.live, there is a neoliberal society, but it is fine to be consumers...
:27:09. > :27:12.When you look at the fact that all the money is locked into one
:27:13. > :27:16.generation's housing and everybody else from below 30 on wards is
:27:17. > :27:22.struggling because we are not all consumers.
:27:23. > :27:26.It was the beginning of money and... Ah, but he wasn't to know. You can
:27:27. > :27:30.look at the p ideas and the antics were ridiculous, but it is very
:27:31. > :27:36.important that the 1960s left us with tolerance and it left us with
:27:37. > :27:39.gay rights and opened up and broke down class barriers and opened up
:27:40. > :27:43.markets. I think, you know, that's one of my arguments that consumer
:27:44. > :27:47.capitalism and social liberalism went together and they were all
:27:48. > :27:55.produced by this generational shift. If you look at when Please Please
:27:56. > :27:59.came out. 50 years ago. From that 50 year period there were two world
:28:00. > :28:04.wars and massive change. It seems extraordinary in that 50 year period
:28:05. > :28:09.and now Paul McCartney is still making records. If you look at the
:28:10. > :28:12.break down of class barriers. The reason it seemed so radical at the
:28:13. > :28:17.time, the reason there was this fixed, if you sound a certain way
:28:18. > :28:21.you won't be allowed into the public domain. Actual financial inequality
:28:22. > :28:24.wasn't that great, but now it is so great there is no problem with
:28:25. > :28:33.people from whatever class because there are so many other ways to keep
:28:34. > :28:39.them out. Tom Iran talks about its nuclear
:28:40. > :28:45.weapons. With a thaw in relations two America and the new Iranian
:28:46. > :28:49.president. Mark urban is there. The weight of expectation is massive,
:28:50. > :29:05.presumably? It is big. Particularly after the visit to the UN last month
:29:06. > :29:10.by president roe handy. -- Rohani. Despite that, there is a lot of
:29:11. > :29:13.people in the foreign policy establishments of the UK, US, who
:29:14. > :29:19.have been expressing scepticism. Who have been saying look is this just a
:29:20. > :29:23.PR drive or are we going to see something substantially different?
:29:24. > :29:30.Tomorrow morning around 9.30 to 10am, the Foreign Minister of Iran
:29:31. > :29:35.will walk into to the building in Geneva and present this new Iranian
:29:36. > :29:38.plan. At that point we should know, not the deal, but we should know the
:29:39. > :29:42.direction of travel and whether there is a real desire to make
:29:43. > :29:51.compromises on the Iranian side. But do we know anything about this
:29:52. > :29:54.new plan? Any tit-bits? Well, certain things have been talked
:29:55. > :29:58.about. There is a three phase plan. They have also defined certain
:29:59. > :30:02.things negatively. They have said it is a red line and they don't want
:30:03. > :30:06.any of their enriched uranium removed from the country. One thing
:30:07. > :30:10.is clear is that the old type of negotiations in which the west was
:30:11. > :30:16.trying to shut down this programme or remove the enriched uranium or
:30:17. > :30:22.get someone else to do the enrichment is not on the table. What
:30:23. > :30:26.this is about is trying to row back the Iranian programme from where it
:30:27. > :30:31.is now and get it under tight international control. It would seem
:30:32. > :30:36.the Iranians understand this. That officials are expecting a meaningful
:30:37. > :30:43.proposal to be made tomorrow. That's one of the reasons John Kerry was in
:30:44. > :30:47.London today trying to almost anticipate the Iranian position and
:30:48. > :30:51.that some form of deeper negotiati will begin, but we will get the true
:30:52. > :30:55.sense of direction tomorrow and Wednesday.
:30:56. > :30:57.Thank you very much, Mark. Bill Turnbull
:30:58. > :31:08.Bill Browder is not welcome in Russia unless behind bars. He has
:31:09. > :31:18.been sentenced to nine years for tax evasion for which he denies. Mr
:31:19. > :31:21.Browder has listed 60 Russian officials he holds responsible for
:31:22. > :31:31.the death. Today a British judge throughout a case for libel.
:31:32. > :31:38.A mistierious death in a Moscow jail. Four years on it has done much
:31:39. > :31:53.to poison relations between Russia and the west. T.
:31:54. > :31:59.He wasn't a rights campaigner. He was a tax lawyer jailed after he
:32:00. > :32:06.exposed a fraud worth $230 million that he said involved police and
:32:07. > :32:11.other State officials. His employer claimed the lawyer was jailed and
:32:12. > :32:18.then killed to cover-up the scam. He campaigned for a Bill now passed
:32:19. > :32:23.into law banning Russian officials involved in the death from entering
:32:24. > :32:26.the United States. That plainly infuriated President
:32:27. > :32:31.Putin. In response, Russia has imposed
:32:32. > :32:45.similar sanctions on some American officials and this year, it tried a
:32:46. > :32:50.defendant. Browder's online campaign continues with this police officer
:32:51. > :33:05.accused. The same officers arrested and tortured and killed Sergi.
:33:06. > :33:09.This man denied the charges and sued Browder's company for libel. It is
:33:10. > :33:12.one thing to allege the police officer was part of a tax fraud and
:33:13. > :33:19.another to suggest that he was directly involved in the torture and
:33:20. > :33:23.murder of the whistle-blower. The judge ruled today the companies had
:33:24. > :33:27.not come close to proed vieding sufficient evidence. The case turned
:33:28. > :33:38.on another issue. The justification for hearing the claim in an English
:33:39. > :33:44.court. One side argued it wasn't libel tourism. The judge said the
:33:45. > :33:53.claimant's connection with this country is resid uous. There is a
:33:54. > :33:59.degree of artificiality about his seeking to protect his reputation.
:34:00. > :34:05.The British courts will no longer be he -- no be longer used to halt free
:34:06. > :34:13.speech. Officials from any countries around the world cannot come to the
:34:14. > :34:17.UK on a libel tourism. The so-called investigators lock
:34:18. > :34:23.people up here. Many questions remain about the
:34:24. > :34:28.case. The Kremlin's reaction served only to put the Russian State in the
:34:29. > :34:35.dock. That State seems determined to seek revenge on its accusers. Above
:34:36. > :34:41.all, on William Browder. Well, joining me now is Bill
:34:42. > :34:47.Browder. It wasn't a great day in court for you, the judge said that
:34:48. > :34:54.you did not have the evidence? I view it as a fantastic day in court
:34:55. > :34:59.today. The judge kicked out a case of libel tourism. This guy shouldn't
:35:00. > :35:01.have been suing us in the first place here.
:35:02. > :35:06.He did make it clear that he didn't think you had the evidence you
:35:07. > :35:14.needed? It comes down to a very simple paragraph in the judgement.
:35:15. > :35:21.The judge said we couldn't prove he was the guy who beat Sergi and we
:35:22. > :35:27.never said he was the guy who beat Sergi. The judge did say in his
:35:28. > :35:32.ruling if this had gone to court, he would have aloud us to -- allowed us
:35:33. > :35:38.to resubmit our claim to say he was a member of a criminal group.
:35:39. > :35:43.Well, you have questions over how he can afford this libel, a retired
:35:44. > :35:51.police officer? Well, so let's take a step back. Here you have a police
:35:52. > :35:57.officer. He earned ?6,000 a -- $6,000 a year as a police officer.
:35:58. > :36:02.He hired the most expensive QC and solicitor in the country costing
:36:03. > :36:08.millions, millions to sue people and I was one of his victims as well as
:36:09. > :36:12.many others to sue his victims in a foreign country. How is that? It
:36:13. > :36:17.kind of shows in one way if you are right, the Russians will not let
:36:18. > :36:23.this lie and indeed, they won't let it lie because they want you
:36:24. > :36:27.extradited and serve nine years on a conviction of tax evasion. You can't
:36:28. > :36:33.travel to Sweden for example, can you? You are too worried you would
:36:34. > :36:39.be extradited? We got the Act passed in America which passes asset
:36:40. > :36:44.freezes who are involved in this case and many other cases. The
:36:45. > :36:52.Russian Government got furious and they have convicted Sergi and I was
:36:53. > :36:58.his codefendant and they convicted me for nine years. You have had
:36:59. > :37:01.death threats, haven't you? I have had death threats and libel suits
:37:02. > :37:10.and extradition, everything you can think of. The Russians are so, Putin
:37:11. > :37:16.is so agitated because we found the Achilles heel of this regime which
:37:17. > :37:21.is they steal money and they stole $230 million. A young lawyer exposed
:37:22. > :37:26.it and then he was killed in prison for exposing it. They steal money
:37:27. > :37:30.and so we found their Achilles heel which is let's make sure the money
:37:31. > :37:35.is frozen in the west and that's what makes Putin terrified.
:37:36. > :37:39.Is there a sense in which you are pursuing this because you feel so
:37:40. > :37:44.responsibility for your colleague's death? Of, course. If he hadn't been
:37:45. > :37:48.my lawyer, he would be alive and that weight sits on my shoulders
:37:49. > :37:51.every day and that's what drives me every day to get justice for this
:37:52. > :37:56.man. And what extent will you go to get
:37:57. > :38:00.justice? I will go to the end. Would you ever do something that
:38:01. > :38:04.would put yourself in danger? The only way I will get justice if I
:38:05. > :38:09.stay alive and stay out of prison. So I will stay alive and stay out of
:38:10. > :38:19.prison. I will keep on fighting this to make sure the people who killed
:38:20. > :38:25.Sergi face justice. What makes art? When is it good? And
:38:26. > :38:28.how do we know when it's good? These are some of the questions being
:38:29. > :38:31.posed by the, by turns, flamboyant, playful and provocative artist,
:38:32. > :38:34.Grayson Perry, who is delivering this year's Reith lectures. The
:38:35. > :38:37.Turner Prize winning potter sets out to demystify the often exclusive and
:38:38. > :38:41.impenetrable art world and isn't afraid to have a pop at contemporary
:38:42. > :38:44.art. For example, calling Tate Modern a cult entertainment
:38:45. > :38:48.megastore. He believes that art is a visual medium, usually made by the
:38:49. > :38:52.artist's hand, that is a pleasure to make, to look at and to show others.
:38:53. > :38:55.He has recorded the lectures in different venues and I hazard a
:38:56. > :38:59.guess is perhaps the only Reithian to have received a raucous standing
:39:00. > :39:05.ovation. There is one message I want the lectures to carry. It is that
:39:06. > :39:21.anybody can enjoy art. Anybody can have a life in the arts. Even me! An
:39:22. > :39:25.Essex trance estite potter. I have never been afraid of being a
:39:26. > :39:33.part of the establishment. To be outside of it, my third lecture is
:39:34. > :39:39.called Nice Rebellion Welcome In. It absorbs it. It punches itself in the
:39:40. > :39:43.face, the art world. You seem to be saying to people,
:39:44. > :39:47.come in, don't be afraid of art. You say it is not easy, you can't know
:39:48. > :39:51.what art is? Yeah, I don't know much about football. You wouldn't ask me
:39:52. > :39:55.to choose the England football team. When someone goes into an art
:39:56. > :39:58.gallery and they know nothing about art, their opinion is, you know, not
:39:59. > :40:08.the same as someone who has been looking at all -- at art their life.
:40:09. > :40:10.How do people educate themselves? By looking and learning and reading and
:40:11. > :40:14.listening. If you were naturally, you don't
:40:15. > :40:22.know much about art and you go in and you are in a gallery and you are
:40:23. > :40:27.faced a Monet and the Tate bricks, are you drawn as setically? The one
:40:28. > :40:31.thing I want to say to people, you don't have to like it all. But it
:40:32. > :40:35.might be that when you learn more about the bricks and the history of
:40:36. > :40:38.art and where it stands and the context and the narrative of it and
:40:39. > :40:53.then you will start to understand what the bricks mean. The urinal is
:40:54. > :41:00.a different kind of art. You don't have to like it all, you know. I
:41:01. > :41:05.mean, I like much of the 20th century modernism and I like some of
:41:06. > :41:11.what is made todayks but at any one point in our history, most of what
:41:12. > :41:18.is being made is rubbish and it was ever thus. If you go back 100 or 200
:41:19. > :41:22.years, most of the art was poor quality and all the stuff from the
:41:23. > :41:26.past, the bad stuff has been filtered out. The trouble is we can
:41:27. > :41:37.now see the other stuff that's being made now. We can go this week to
:41:38. > :41:43.Freeze Art Fair. Do you think we are coming to the
:41:44. > :41:50.end of art? The end of change in art. You seem to be suggesting that
:41:51. > :41:56.at one of your lectures? You had modernism starting in the late 19th
:41:57. > :42:00.century and started to fizzle out around the 60s and 70s. Now we are
:42:01. > :42:05.in a state where some people call it the end of art. Where you can do
:42:06. > :42:09.anything and formally, in terms of what you can make as art, what you
:42:10. > :42:14.declare as art, you can do anything. But there are still boundaries. I
:42:15. > :42:19.talk about that in one of the lecturesment I say the boundaries
:42:20. > :42:22.are social, economical. It is about the context. Who is looking at it.
:42:23. > :42:26.Where it is. And who is buying it. You are
:42:27. > :42:32.detailed. You make really interesting arguments about the
:42:33. > :42:36.xhodification of art and how it is suddenly regarded as valuable and
:42:37. > :42:40.six months later, not valuable anymore. I am fascinated by negative
:42:41. > :42:45.equity in the art world and it is not talked about a lot. There is a
:42:46. > :42:48.point where an artist is almost too big to fail and he is supported or
:42:49. > :42:52.she is supported by the galleries and by collectors. It is like
:42:53. > :43:00.everybody in the room is blowing up to keep the balloon up in the air.
:43:01. > :43:05.There is what they call costs bias. There is artists lower down the
:43:06. > :43:10.pecking order that might be pricey who disappear out of view and the
:43:11. > :43:18.people who bought their work write off the money.
:43:19. > :43:23.Do you think that edifice of art is what puts people off? It seems so
:43:24. > :43:27.far away from their daily lives that art doesn't have the same meaning to
:43:28. > :43:32.them? The thing is unlike music or literature or film there is not such
:43:33. > :43:37.a dominating popular wing. On the whole it tends to be mainly about
:43:38. > :43:41.the high end and the difficult. That's the sort of quirk. That's
:43:42. > :43:45.what we have ended up. There is popular art, of course, there is. It
:43:46. > :43:50.doesn't have, you know, the kind of curve of art is very top endy as
:43:51. > :43:53.opposed to music where it is very bottom endy.
:43:54. > :43:56.Do you want more people to enjoy art? Do you think there is a problem
:43:57. > :44:03.in this country that not enough people enjoy art or feel comfortable
:44:04. > :44:06.with it? 5.3 million people go through the doors to Tate Modern
:44:07. > :44:10.every year. You think it is some big
:44:11. > :44:16.entertainment box? It might be because it is on the tourist trail.
:44:17. > :44:21.But I think, I would really enjoy the art world. I really enjoy art
:44:22. > :44:25.and I want to pass that on. It is something you can work at and
:44:26. > :44:31.compared to when I started in the art world people are much more
:44:32. > :44:35.knowledgeable. There is more in the media. Me being on Newsnight is
:44:36. > :44:40.something you wouldn't have had an artist on Newsnight in the past.
:44:41. > :44:45.Artists can be social commentators and you are thought of as a social
:44:46. > :44:50.commentator or as well? Because I enjoy the media and it is something
:44:51. > :44:57.I have chosen to do. It is an option open to people in the creative
:44:58. > :45:02.industry. The idea of creating by your own hand. It has been an
:45:03. > :45:07.argument that artists have assistants. Is it the business of it
:45:08. > :45:13.which is not having an artist to put the clouds into the Sistene Chapel.
:45:14. > :45:18.The thing is the work by the assistant is part of the
:45:19. > :45:22.commercialisation of the art? A lot of artists, they have a lot of
:45:23. > :45:26.assistants because there is demand for their work and they couldn't
:45:27. > :45:30.pull fill the market, the desire for their work so you know, museums
:45:31. > :45:35.around the world all want a piece of a certain artist's work so they get
:45:36. > :45:41.loads of assistants and they make a lot of works and hay press toe. They
:45:42. > :45:47.make a lot of money. Does that devalue the art? It
:45:48. > :45:55.depends on the artist. Some arthist -- artist, they are saying this is
:45:56. > :46:09.part of my work. I churn it out. You are a work of art? No, I declare
:46:10. > :46:12.myself not a work of art! Grayson Perry's first Reith lecture
:46:13. > :46:16.can be heard at 9am on Radio 4. While it's on air, you can join in
:46:17. > :46:19.the debate via Will Gompertz's live blog and, of course, on Twitter. The
:46:20. > :46:27.hashtag, not surprisingly, is Reith. Tom's front page is the care home
:46:28. > :46:33.stories. Cutting green taxes may raise energy bills warns Clegg.
:46:34. > :46:40.Syria linked to terrorist arrest in London raids. The Financial Times,
:46:41. > :46:47.London opens door to Chinese bank. Tory peer hits out at GCHQ's online
:46:48. > :46:50.spying. That's the Queen.
:46:51. > :46:55.Well, that's it for tonight. Jeremy is here tomorrow. We leave you with
:46:56. > :47:02.a little of the movie Gravity which has come from nowhere to take $100
:47:03. > :47:17.million since its release ten days ago in the United States.
:47:18. > :47:21.Unusually for a Hollywood science fiction film, it is depiction of a
:47:22. > :47:27.disaster in earth's orbit has even been praised for its occasional
:47:28. > :47:44.adherence to the laws of physics. Good night.
:47:45. > :47:49.Listen to my voice. You need to focus. Detach. I can't see you
:47:50. > :48:13.anymore. Do it now. Good evening.
:48:14. > :48:14.Well, as far as Tuesday goes,