:00:10. > :00:15.The lead QC in the phone hacking trial reveals that Rebekah Brooks
:00:16. > :00:18.and Andy Coulson had a long affair while both at the News of the World.
:00:19. > :00:23.Did that mean they told each other everything? The man in charge of
:00:24. > :00:26.artist liaison at Spotify says musicians should have nothing to
:00:27. > :00:30.fear from the music streaming service. I would encourage all
:00:31. > :00:33.artists to weigh it up, make the best decision for their band.
:00:34. > :00:38.Ultimately there is almost no case for an artist not putting their
:00:39. > :00:42.music on Spotify. Moby will be joining us for his ideas for making
:00:43. > :00:47.money out of music. The rabid right, was David Cameron wrong to shun the
:00:48. > :00:52.grassroots and euro-sceptics. One influential Tory thinks so. Europe,
:00:53. > :01:02.welfare, immigration, on all the big issues of the last decade, the right
:01:03. > :01:05.has been right. And in Chile, how the Pinochet dictatorship still
:01:06. > :01:10.lives in the memory of those involved in the up coming pecks
:01:11. > :01:15.elections. TRANSLATION: There was a particular torture they used against
:01:16. > :01:23.women like me who refused to talk. It involves violent sexual abuse. I
:01:24. > :01:28.was pregnant at the time and I lost my
:01:29. > :01:35.Good evening, Anthony and Cleopatra, JFK and Marylin, John and Edwina,
:01:36. > :01:40.today in the phone hacking trial the court heard the revelation that
:01:41. > :01:46.Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson had Anne fair until since 2004, and may
:01:47. > :01:50.have lasted six years. Of course Andrew Edis QC said he was making no
:01:51. > :01:54.moral judgment or intruding into their privacy. But the fact of the
:01:55. > :01:58.affair meant that what Rebekah Brooks knew, Andy Coulson knew, and
:01:59. > :02:04.visa versa. That is what he wanted to put in the Mobitz of the jurors.
:02:05. > :02:08.This report contains flash photography.
:02:09. > :02:12."The fact is you are my very best friend, I tell you everything, I
:02:13. > :02:16.confide in you, I seek your advice, I love you, care about you, worry
:02:17. > :02:23.about you, we laugh and cry together." The intimate details of
:02:24. > :02:26.an fair between two hugely high-profile public figures that had
:02:27. > :02:30.remained secret for years. A tale in fact that could have graced the
:02:31. > :02:34.front page of any edition of the News of the World. When the jury in
:02:35. > :02:37.court 12 of the Old Bailey heard those words today, they were being
:02:38. > :02:44.told a story that never made it into print. The revelation that this
:02:45. > :02:48.trial's two highest-profile defendant, Brooks Brookes and Andy
:02:49. > :02:50.Coulson had been illicit lovers for years. A fact that prosecutor Andrew
:02:51. > :03:22.Edis QC made much of. He raised it in connection with the
:03:23. > :03:25.hacking of Milly Dowler's voicemail. That the News of the World hacked
:03:26. > :03:31.Milly Dowler's phone is not disputed. The question before the
:03:32. > :03:35.jury is who knew? Rebekah Brooks was on holiday in Dubai, leaving Coulson
:03:36. > :03:39.in charge, when the News of the World published a story that came
:03:40. > :03:43.straight from Milly's voicemail, quoting verbatim a message that had
:03:44. > :03:48.been left on it. The jury were told there was a string of calls and
:03:49. > :03:52.messages between Brooks in Dubai and the editor's desk in London in the
:03:53. > :03:56.lead up to publication. Such was the intimacy of her relationship with
:03:57. > :04:11.Coulson, Edis said, Brooks simply must have known what was going on.
:04:12. > :04:18.And it wasn't just Coulson, Brooks, reporter Neville Thurlbeck, news
:04:19. > :04:23.editor Greg Miskiw and Glenn Mulcaire who allegedly knew about
:04:24. > :04:26.the hacking of Milly Dowler's voicemail. The paper's managing
:04:27. > :04:30.editor, Stuart Kuttner, also a defendant in the case, even told
:04:31. > :04:34.Surrey Police that the newspaper had Milly Dowler's voicemails. All of
:04:35. > :04:38.which was evidence of how senior figures at the News of the World
:04:39. > :04:45.were taking a very keen interest in the Milly Dowler story. Edis summed
:04:46. > :04:49.it up thus. These are very senior journalists on the News of the World
:04:50. > :04:52.who are pursuing this story and devoting time to it. We say in all
:04:53. > :04:57.the circumstances it is simply incredible that the editors did not
:04:58. > :05:01.know what was going on that week. Earlier it had been payments to
:05:02. > :05:06.private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, amounting to more than
:05:07. > :05:11.?100,000 a year, and who now admits phone hacking, that Mr Edis focussed
:05:12. > :05:18.on the jury were told that Brooks, Coulson and Cutler kept a tight rein
:05:19. > :05:23.on spending at the News of the World, and personally signing off
:05:24. > :05:26.amounts as low as ?1,000. It was inconceivable that they didn't know
:05:27. > :05:34.the paper was paying Mullany so much money. Cutler had signed -- Kuttner
:05:35. > :05:39.had signed off payments to Glenn Mulcaire of over ?400,000, or that
:05:40. > :05:44.they didn't know what they were paying them for, which boiled down,
:05:45. > :05:52.to phone hacking. What
:05:53. > :05:59.Shh Edis also sought to persuade the jury Assenor he had -- as Senior
:06:00. > :06:03.editors they all routinely asked what he called "the editor's
:06:04. > :06:06.question", in other words, how do I know the story is true. The answer
:06:07. > :06:10.to which at the News of the World was all too often, phone hacking. On
:06:11. > :06:14.all three points, managing the money, overseeing the paper's
:06:15. > :06:17.journalism, and the very close relationship between Coulson and
:06:18. > :06:22.Brooks, Edis argued that it was inconceivable that they didn't know
:06:23. > :06:26.about and embrace the cripple flail practice of phone -- criminal
:06:27. > :06:29.practice of phone hacking. If yesterday's proceedings lacked
:06:30. > :06:34.drama, today's certainly didn't. Having had the details of their
:06:35. > :06:37.secret affair laid bare before the jury, Coulson and Brooks, sitting
:06:38. > :06:42.next to each other in the dock, then had to listen to prosecutor Edis
:06:43. > :06:48.running through how they had exposed others, namely fire brigades' union
:06:49. > :06:51.leader, Andy Gilchrist, and former Home Secretary, David Blunkett, for
:06:52. > :06:56.illicit affairs of their own, apparently on the basis of illegally
:06:57. > :07:02.hacked voice mails. There was a tangible sense in court and outside
:07:03. > :07:07.afterwards, of two Titans of tabloid journalism enduring some of what
:07:08. > :07:17.they often dished out to others. All the accused deny the charges. Coming
:07:18. > :07:22.up. At the end of the day Spotify helps record companies, big record
:07:23. > :07:28.companies and it helps investors. Emerging artists don't get a look
:07:29. > :07:31.in. Now just when you thought it was safe to go back into the City of
:07:32. > :07:38.London, several banks have become embroilled in an international probe
:07:39. > :07:43.into possible manipulation of the currency trading forex business. The
:07:44. > :07:48.justice investigators are investigating whether nine traders
:07:49. > :07:53.included with partners and other banks to rig rates. News of
:07:54. > :07:58.suspensions among bank staff tonight. We have been looking at it.
:07:59. > :08:02.What has been going on? The global foreign exchange market is really
:08:03. > :08:05.very big business. There are some staggeringly large numbers involved.
:08:06. > :08:13.Let's take a look at one of them. That is this one. $5. 3 trillion
:08:14. > :08:17.daily is trade around the world in dollars and all sorts of other
:08:18. > :08:22.currencies. Of that more than 40% is traded in London. That is the
:08:23. > :08:26.biggest centre for Foreign exchange. A really important story around this
:08:27. > :08:30.emerging over the last couple of weeks. Each day there is an
:08:31. > :08:33.important procedure, a rate setting, so that rates are set for benchmark,
:08:34. > :08:43.for pension funds and contracts and all that sort of thing. For example
:08:44. > :08:48.today one pound was set at $1. 60. That happens at 6.00pm in London.
:08:49. > :08:53.There is a 60 second window, and all the trades over that 60 seconds are
:08:54. > :08:58.compiled by an organisation called WM Reuters, it is the WM Reuters
:08:59. > :09:02.Fix. The investigations are around whether that setting could have in
:09:03. > :09:06.some way been manipulated. You are saying 40% of the business is
:09:07. > :09:10.conducted through London. Any names emerging? There are major banks,
:09:11. > :09:13.which have confirmed that actually they have been approached by
:09:14. > :09:17.regulators, or they have conducted their own investigations, you can
:09:18. > :09:25.see some of the names, including RBS and Barclays, as well as Deutsche
:09:26. > :09:33.Bank. And also Citigroup. Names have named, row Hann Ranjandani and
:09:34. > :09:35.others from JP Morgan on a sub-committee on foreign exchange
:09:36. > :09:39.dealing, they have been sent on leave by their employers, there is
:09:40. > :09:46.no suggestion at all they were involved in any wrongdoing, and also
:09:47. > :09:51.Matt Gardener. RBS has suspended two traders. If it turns out to be a
:09:52. > :09:54.major scandal, could it be as big as LIBOR? At the moment nobody is
:09:55. > :09:57.actually suggesting that any wrongdoing is taking place. It is a
:09:58. > :10:02.preliminary investigation. But I think it has the potential to be
:10:03. > :10:07.very significant indeed. Various e-mails and instant messaging data
:10:08. > :10:10.being looked at by regulators suggests there may have been
:10:11. > :10:14.activity up to August this year. That will shock other people if
:10:15. > :10:24.anything untoward has been proved. I'm joined by the research director
:10:25. > :10:30.at the on-line trading company forex.com. Are you surprised? Since
:10:31. > :10:33.2008 the regulatory landscape has changed so much, it has gone from
:10:34. > :10:36.the mortgage business to LIBOR, because the foreign exchange
:10:37. > :10:41.business is so huge it was in line for scrutiny. The make name for the
:10:42. > :10:44.foreign exchange business is the "wild west" because it isn't
:10:45. > :10:48.regulated like the others? It can sometimes get a bad press for that.
:10:49. > :10:52.But I think you have seen it with individual companies that might be
:10:53. > :10:57.on an exchange. Or maybe considered to be more highly regulated than the
:10:58. > :11:01.FX market and still things happen to them. Yes it is unregulated but that
:11:02. > :11:06.doesn't mean it is always working on its own. But if there have been
:11:07. > :11:10.problems with it, is it likely to emerge through big trades, small
:11:11. > :11:14.trade, I mean this minute window that Hugh was talking about, is it
:11:15. > :11:19.major currencies or lesser currencies? It is probably likely to
:11:20. > :11:25.be the major currencies, and in a second, in a matter of a few
:11:26. > :11:29.seconds, when you have a $5. 3 market you can push a lot of trades
:11:30. > :11:33.through in that time. It will be small increments that any changes
:11:34. > :11:37.were made if they can be detected. They are hard to detect I would
:11:38. > :11:42.imagine. The source suggests though that it is the smaller currencies
:11:43. > :11:46.not the bigger currencies? Sure. So it is the smaller currencies, in
:11:47. > :11:49.this case, if there is any wrongdoing, not that we think at the
:11:50. > :11:54.moment there is? They are the less liquid ones as well. Is it the case
:11:55. > :11:58.even if there is a major problem, coming on top of all the FREEF
:11:59. > :12:04.problems that the City of London is too big to fail? It is absolutely
:12:05. > :12:09.true, it is 40% of the whole market. We have a good reputation, but these
:12:10. > :12:15.continual regulatory probes they are chipping away at that. It was only a
:12:16. > :12:22.few months ago we signed up with China to trade for RNB and make
:12:23. > :12:25.London a trading hub. The problem is if George Osborne has signed up with
:12:26. > :12:30.the Chinese, then it is embarrassing so soon afterwards to announce an
:12:31. > :12:35.investigation? It is incredibly em-Bartsing, it is good that it is
:12:36. > :12:40.the FAC A and the UK has taken a lead on it, if we are staying the
:12:41. > :12:43.centre of the FX world we have to make sure we are managing and
:12:44. > :12:49.policing it well and being fair to both sides of the trade. Thank you
:12:50. > :12:55.very much indeed. The last desperate fart of a dying corpse, Thom Yorke
:12:56. > :13:00.on what some are talking up as the saviour of the record industry. The
:13:01. > :13:06.Radiohead front man might not be keen on Spotify, with six million
:13:07. > :13:10.paying customer, it can't match the might of the YouTube and iTunes, it
:13:11. > :13:15.is big in business. Whether it is a malign or benign influence is hotly
:13:16. > :13:22.debated. We have been asking what artists really get out of it. Is
:13:23. > :13:26.this the White Knight of the music industry? A way for people to gorge
:13:27. > :13:32.on as many tracks as they want, while giving record labels and
:13:33. > :13:38.artists a steady stream of income. Spotify lets users listen to music
:13:39. > :13:43.over the Internet for free. A paid subscription gives you mobile access
:13:44. > :13:48.and the ability to download individual tracks. The site is now
:13:49. > :13:51.passing millions of pounds to record labels each year. For many this and
:13:52. > :13:54.similar firms like Deezer and Napster are the future for an
:13:55. > :13:58.industry that once looked like it might topple over. Some people in
:13:59. > :14:03.the music industry, passionately believe that Spotify is eating into
:14:04. > :14:07.piracy, it is bringing more money into the industry and boosting
:14:08. > :14:10.artists' career. Other people believe that Spotify is drawing
:14:11. > :14:15.customers who spend a lot on buying music to a new model in which they
:14:16. > :14:19.are actually spending less. Cannibalising the existing healthy
:14:20. > :14:24.business model. Whichever of those is true will ultimately decide the
:14:25. > :14:28.music industry's fate in the future. The latest financial figures show
:14:29. > :14:35.how the site is growing. The firm's sales doubled last year to ?370
:14:36. > :14:39.million. It now has 24 million users in 32 different countries. The
:14:40. > :14:43.Spotify model is now being talked up as a key factor in the industry's
:14:44. > :14:48.fightback, in countries like Norway and Sweden, where the company was
:14:49. > :14:53.founded. Revenues there are now rising strongly, after a decade of
:14:54. > :15:01.slumping CD sales and soaring piracy. Spotify's top brass
:15:02. > :15:06.certainly talk the talk. At an industry event run by Virgin,
:15:07. > :15:09.Newsnight caught up with their unfeesably fashionable executive,
:15:10. > :15:14.keen to talk up his new business model. I think in new ideas at
:15:15. > :15:19.Spotify is a meritocracy, meaning we have a pool of revenue, we are
:15:20. > :15:24.paying back almost 70% to artists. If you have 1% of all the streams on
:15:25. > :15:28.Spotify, you will see 1% of the revenue paid back to rights holders.
:15:29. > :15:31.That is the exciting part for me. This pot will grow and grow and grow
:15:32. > :15:36.and your revenues increasing daily. If you look at traditional models it
:15:37. > :15:40.wasn't a pro-rat at that system, that is a new and exciting idea for
:15:41. > :15:47.me. So for such an industry success
:15:48. > :15:58.story, why does Spotify seem to be turning into a lightning rod for
:15:59. > :16:01.some very upset artistso a lightning rod for some very upset artists.
:16:02. > :16:06.Thom Yorke has pulled most of his solo material off Spotify in
:16:07. > :16:15.response to the rates they pay out. He called them the last fart of a
:16:16. > :16:20.dying corpse, and the reason for the relaxes of relationships between
:16:21. > :16:25.music labels and artists. You are seeing the music industry responding
:16:26. > :16:28.to technology and habits by new listeners. While his heart is in the
:16:29. > :16:32.right place, I would sit down with him and explain to him why his facts
:16:33. > :16:37.may be misinformed. Hasn't he got a point that because, to a certain
:16:38. > :16:41.extent, some of your shareholders, the major label, had you to do deals
:16:42. > :16:46.with the major labels that you are not forward looking but an
:16:47. > :16:50.electronic form of the industry as it exists 15, 20 years ago? I
:16:51. > :16:54.disagree, Radiohead had issues with iTunes when it came out, they had
:16:55. > :17:00.issues about breaking up the CD, there will always be qualms about
:17:01. > :17:04.change. Bands like the Beatle, AC/DC and Led Zeplin have long refused to
:17:05. > :17:12.put their music on streaming sites. And others, like last night's
:17:13. > :17:14.mercury nominees, Faols, are now speaking out. Irrespective of
:17:15. > :17:20.whether it brings people to your music or as a spin off you sell more
:17:21. > :17:24.ticket, the business model itself means you have music you have worked
:17:25. > :17:32.your heart out for you are paid what I deem to be an immoral amount. And
:17:33. > :17:36.that's it, that's just for me it is an inarguable fact the royalty rate
:17:37. > :17:42.musicians receive from Spotify is just not fair. Spotify pays artists,
:17:43. > :17:45.not directly, but through their music label or management company,
:17:46. > :17:48.that means different musicians can receive completely different
:17:49. > :18:03.amounts. Each time a user plays a track. Patterns are an up and coming
:18:04. > :18:10.Manchester band with just four songs so far available on Spotify. The
:18:11. > :18:14.lead singer said the site can be good for exposure, but once you try
:18:15. > :18:19.to earn proper money it becomes more difficult. We use streaming services
:18:20. > :18:22.like Sound Cloud and things like Band Camp, we think it is really
:18:23. > :18:25.important people listen to our music. What is different with
:18:26. > :18:29.Spotify is now you have these premium accounts where not only can
:18:30. > :18:34.people stream your music but take it away with them. What's the point for
:18:35. > :18:39.them to buy us on iTunes or any kind of MP 3. Here we have a spread sheet
:18:40. > :18:43.that shows all the streams to date that Patterns have received via
:18:44. > :18:48.Spotify. Crunching the numbers, the boss of the band's label say after
:18:49. > :18:52.two years and 150,000 plays on Spotify the four members have paid
:18:53. > :18:58.?65 each. That is after the label itself takes its ?50% share. For an
:18:59. > :19:07.indie label like us that equates to 00. 2p per stream on Spotify. The
:19:08. > :19:11.artist is getting 00. 1p per stream, that is not much at all. If you are
:19:12. > :19:15.an artist without a large audience and fan base, it is hard to do well
:19:16. > :19:19.on any service, whether iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, in my opinion it
:19:20. > :19:22.is pretty straight forward. You engage with your label, you are in a
:19:23. > :19:26.business relationship with your label. You are making a decision
:19:27. > :19:28.based upon an element of trust. You engage your label and get as much
:19:29. > :19:32.information as possible, you make sure you understand your situation,
:19:33. > :19:36.and you receive the payments that are deserved.
:19:37. > :19:40.After 14 years of upheaval and falling sales, it looks like the
:19:41. > :19:44.music industry is back on its feet. Spotify and services like it will
:19:45. > :19:50.probably continue to grow. They might, though, make more enemies
:19:51. > :19:56.along the way. Joining us now from Los Angeles is the mu six Moby who
:19:57. > :20:01.has told -- musician Moby who has sold 20 million albums worldwide.
:20:02. > :20:05.How are you, good evening. When you heard Faols talking last night at
:20:06. > :20:10.Mercury saying artists receive an immoral amount and the royalty rate
:20:11. > :20:16.is so poor, by and large, do you think he has a point? I think what
:20:17. > :20:20.the journalist was also talking about is it is hard to generalise, a
:20:21. > :20:22.lot of it has do with the artist relationship with the record
:20:23. > :20:27.company. Some artists are making more money from Spotify than others.
:20:28. > :20:31.It is hard to come up with a comprehensive generalised amoral or
:20:32. > :20:33.moral statement about the royalties people are receiving. The more
:20:34. > :20:37.powerful the band and the better deal they do with their record
:20:38. > :20:41.company, obviously, the better their rate will be when it comes to
:20:42. > :20:47.Spotify. You have gone a different road now, because your new album,
:20:48. > :20:51.The Innocence, you are issuing a download and streaming, is that the
:20:52. > :20:59.way of the future? Well, my, I don't know maybe I'm a simplen to, but my
:21:00. > :21:02.-- simpleton, my thoughts are musicians' main job is making music
:21:03. > :21:07.they love and other people love. You have to figure out how to pay the
:21:08. > :21:10.rent and be fiscally responsible, but the goal should really be
:21:11. > :21:13.focussing on the music. One of the things I love about the digital
:21:14. > :21:19.present we live in, with institutions like Spotify, or Sound
:21:20. > :21:23.Cloud or YouTube, it is almost like this democratic anarchy, it is very
:21:24. > :21:26.chaotic, you put music into the world and you have no idea how
:21:27. > :21:31.people will experience it or listen to it. I actually find that really
:21:32. > :21:36.compelling. I accept that argument, and funnily enough Lou Reed always
:21:37. > :21:40.said it didn't matter about the business it was the music. You can
:21:41. > :21:46.speak of the advantage of somebody who has sold 20 million albums world
:21:47. > :21:51.wild, the young band from Manchester said the people who win out are the
:21:52. > :22:03.label, if the artists are cutting deals where they might get 7% not
:22:04. > :22:06.70%ho win out are the label, if the artists are cutting deals where they
:22:07. > :22:09.might get 7% not 70%. The state of technology six months from now, a
:22:10. > :22:11.year from now, five years from now might make Spotify look very
:22:12. > :22:15.antiquated. Having too strong an opinion about streaming services
:22:16. > :22:23.like Spotify, you look it is kind of like having a strong opinion about
:22:24. > :22:27.Napster which barely exists now. I really feel like when I see people
:22:28. > :22:32.criticising the digital present we live. It kind of reminds me at old
:22:33. > :22:35.guys yelling at trains going too fast. There is nothing you can do
:22:36. > :22:39.about it. You talk about Napster which was a flash in the pan, do you
:22:40. > :22:45.think Spotify is only on the way to somewhere else, that this is a very
:22:46. > :22:50.shallow stepping stone? It is almost impossible to say. So many of us are
:22:51. > :22:55.accustomed to owning music. But yet there is answer tire new generation
:22:56. > :22:59.of people where it - an entire new generation of people who never owned
:23:00. > :23:01.music. It is a weird overlap between the two. People complaining about
:23:02. > :23:06.Spotify they are not complaining about the same music being played on
:23:07. > :23:18.the radio. Yet that same music is coming out of the same speakers, I
:23:19. > :23:22.don't the radio, I don't understand how people want different
:23:23. > :23:26.compensations for music coming out of different places. They are
:23:27. > :23:28.creating their own sense of music by whatever they are streaming and
:23:29. > :23:36.downloading, does that essentially mean the idea of a curated series
:23:37. > :23:41.and pieces of music like an album is essentially going to be an old man
:23:42. > :23:47.and old woman's tool? I'm speaking as an old man. I know! There is some
:23:48. > :23:52.bias. But I think that there is room for things to coexist. You can have,
:23:53. > :23:56.I look at the world of book publishing, and some things just
:23:57. > :24:00.show up on a digital e-read e you read it and throw away and don't
:24:01. > :24:04.think about it. If you really love a book maybe you want the hard cover
:24:05. > :24:08.version. A coffee table version of it. With music there might be some
:24:09. > :24:12.disposable pop songs you stream a few times and never think about,
:24:13. > :24:25.when your favourite band puts out a new album you might want to buy a
:24:26. > :24:30.version of it. What do you want to be, the five-time played popstar --
:24:31. > :24:36.what do you want to be, the five-time played popstar or the
:24:37. > :24:39.long-term artist? That is up to each artist, some people want the
:24:40. > :24:44.disposable popstar and other people want to make albums people will come
:24:45. > :24:49.back to 50 years hence. You put it out there that almost whoever is
:24:50. > :24:55.listening to it can curate changes and listen in their own way, is that
:24:56. > :25:00.a future? I did a thing with an organisation called BitTorn, we took
:25:01. > :25:05.individual tracks from my album, the drum, the vocals and bass and
:25:06. > :25:09.released them as multitracks where everyone can download it for free,
:25:10. > :25:14.remix it and do what they want with it. I love that democratic chaos.
:25:15. > :25:17.The fact that you put this music out into the world, once it leaves my
:25:18. > :25:21.hands I don't own it and I can't control it. I personally maybe there
:25:22. > :25:25.is something wrong with me, I love the lack of control I have over
:25:26. > :25:29.music once I put it out into the world. Great luxury. Thank you very
:25:30. > :25:34.much indeed Moby. Pleasure, thank you.
:25:35. > :25:37.Is there a quiet reproachment taking place on the political right. After
:25:38. > :25:41.the election David Cameron and George Osborne put clear water, an
:25:42. > :25:43.ocean even between the Tory leadership and much of the party's
:25:44. > :25:48.grassroots, and certainly the euro-sceptics. But was that distance
:25:49. > :25:55.to do with policies or the perceived extreme attitudes of those who
:25:56. > :25:59.expressed them. Swivel-eyed oon, the one who called for British jobs for
:26:00. > :26:05.British workers, a cap on immigration and no, no never to the
:26:06. > :26:10.euro. Are they the ones having the last laugh. Our reporter thinks so.
:26:11. > :26:20.Doesn't he feel faintly embarrassed that in five short years he has gone
:26:21. > :26:24.from "hug a husky" to "gas a badger "(voice of Ed Miliband) The only
:26:25. > :26:28.embarrassing thing is this tortured performance. (Voice of David
:26:29. > :26:35.Cameron. It is hard to get attention, we all lead busy lives,
:26:36. > :26:39.even I a political anorack has stopped watching Prime Minister's
:26:40. > :26:42.question times. Occasionally some interesting things happens, like
:26:43. > :26:47.last week. We need to roll back some of the green regulations and charges
:26:48. > :26:50.putting up bills. The man who promised the greenest Government
:26:51. > :26:53.ever, doesn't sound so green any more. The man who said he would stop
:26:54. > :26:58.banging on about Europe has had to bang on a bit about Europe. On
:26:59. > :27:03.immigration, welfare and tax, David Cameron has steadily moved to the
:27:04. > :27:07.right. Or has he? Some in the parliamentary Conservative Party
:27:08. > :27:10.don't see things in such simple terms. I don't really see it quite
:27:11. > :27:15.as right and left. What I think is really important is that we as a
:27:16. > :27:19.party don't know those distinctions but actually make a very common
:27:20. > :27:24.cause which is being on people's side. Works on the side of families
:27:25. > :27:28.and just being there for them. Changing our language, making sure
:27:29. > :27:31.that we are seen to be on the side of the consumer, not vested
:27:32. > :27:35.interest. I think we need an optimistic message, I think we need
:27:36. > :27:42.to be up for things that are out there in both globally and
:27:43. > :27:50.nationally. The right gets a bad press, grassroots Tory members were
:27:51. > :27:53.rag worms called "swivel-eyed loons", who are the sanest people in
:27:54. > :27:57.politics. Is it the people who supported the euro, or those on the
:27:58. > :28:01.right who always said it would cause the economic problems it has? What
:28:02. > :28:04.about the people who welcomed mass immigration into this country, or
:28:05. > :28:09.was it the right who calls said that immigration of the kind we saw would
:28:10. > :28:14.cause wages to fall and house prices to rise? Some people on the right of
:28:15. > :28:19.the Conservative Party are certainly feeling vindicated by the way events
:28:20. > :28:23.have moved on. I think it is fairly extraordinary on so many of the
:28:24. > :28:28.macro issues on, for example, the question of Europe, whether Britain
:28:29. > :28:32.should be part of the euro or whether we should have a referendum,
:28:33. > :28:37.on the way of immigration, on the question of welfare reform,
:28:38. > :28:43.positions that were once dismissed as beyond the pale, as the preserve
:28:44. > :28:50.of free market right-wingers like me, are increasingly mainstream.
:28:51. > :28:54.They are increasingly accepted as being sensible, normal and essential
:28:55. > :28:58.reform. The traditional right isn't perfect,
:28:59. > :29:02.it needs to learn from the people around David Cameron, the Cameroons,
:29:03. > :29:06.about the importance of public services and changing social
:29:07. > :29:09.attitudes. The Conservative Party has to become a broad centre right
:29:10. > :29:19.church again. Stretching from the centre to the traditional right. The
:29:20. > :29:23.party has to speak to Sun, Daily Mail and Times readers. It is what
:29:24. > :29:27.Margaret Thatcher did with her appeal to the housewives of the
:29:28. > :29:30.1970s. Can we have two pounds of the smaller ones.
:29:31. > :29:36.It is what John Major did in 1992 with his message of opportunity for
:29:37. > :29:41.all. Steak pie boiled. He offered red meat to voters in the form of a
:29:42. > :29:48.tax cut, but he also represented upwards mobility and classlessness.
:29:49. > :29:55.Party that didn't just listen to liberals' boom but also heard the
:29:56. > :30:03.roar of Middle England. My guests are with me now. You set
:30:04. > :30:08.out your case there, but never the Twain shall actually meet. David
:30:09. > :30:14.Cameron, it is the social attitudes that he perceives as much as he
:30:15. > :30:17.finds so difficult to deal with? That is absolutely true. But a lot
:30:18. > :30:22.of people I think when they are losing arguments start decribing
:30:23. > :30:28.people in negative pejorative terms. The writer described the
:30:29. > :30:34."swivel-eyed loons" and nutcases and so on. I wanted to say in the film
:30:35. > :30:38.that the right have a problem because they can be caricatured in
:30:39. > :30:42.that way, but the impact of the welfare state on the poor or
:30:43. > :30:45.immigration on houses prices or Europe, the right has been
:30:46. > :30:50.vindicated and must be part of the Conservative coalition. Why do you
:30:51. > :30:54.think that David Cameron and the modernisers were so unwilling to
:30:55. > :30:59.listen in the early day, when of course they had not won an election
:31:00. > :31:02.but gone into a coalition. Why were they so unwilling to listen? We had
:31:03. > :31:08.reached a stage in this country where a lot of people were
:31:09. > :31:13.culturally inoculated towards ever voting Conservatives. People thought
:31:14. > :31:17.there was a nasty mean-spirited element of the party that simply
:31:18. > :31:20.wasn't reconciled with cultural demographic changes that had
:31:21. > :31:24.happened in Britain. There are two important things going on here.
:31:25. > :31:27.First of all I'm interested in the fact that Tim says the right has
:31:28. > :31:31.been vindicated about all the good things that happened. In the film
:31:32. > :31:35.and what you just said he didn't mention the single biggest thing
:31:36. > :31:38.that happened in the British economy in a generation which is the
:31:39. > :31:42.financial crisis. Just as many people on the left would say the
:31:43. > :31:46.left is vindicated, and Marxists would say this was a crisis in
:31:47. > :31:49.capitalism and what did the right say about that. If you go into that
:31:50. > :31:53.you have the situation where the left, Labour were never going to
:31:54. > :31:57.take us into the euro, were in favour of welfare reform, all these
:31:58. > :32:02.things. But the point surely is that David Cameron in a sense is as much
:32:03. > :32:05.as one end of the spectrum as he would say originally the right was
:32:06. > :32:10.at the other end of the spectrum. Who so moves? It will be David
:32:11. > :32:14.Cameron who moves? A dot of the problem, and you're exactly right to
:32:15. > :32:17.say that the Conservative Party had a big problems. David Cameron
:32:18. > :32:22.diagnosed it incorrectly from the beginning. He thought the
:32:23. > :32:26.Conservative Party was too right-wing, that was the bigger
:32:27. > :32:29.Yorks on all the issues we were discussing those issues are popular.
:32:30. > :32:33.The problem with the Conservative Party, and that is why John Major
:32:34. > :32:38.was so successful, they are not seen as the side of the people who are
:32:39. > :32:41.poor, on the side of the people affected by the financial crisis the
:32:42. > :32:47.low paid. It is that concern for the blue collar vote, that is when the
:32:48. > :32:52.Conservative Party dominates the poll. The problem that the
:32:53. > :32:55.Conservatives have had isn't, the reason they didn't win majority in
:32:56. > :32:59.2010 isn't because people thought David Cameron was secretly in love
:33:00. > :33:02.with the European Union or the Conservatives had a real affection
:33:03. > :33:04.for mass immigration. The situation you have got now isn't that people
:33:05. > :33:07.think David Cameron believes something that they don't believe,
:33:08. > :33:10.it is they don't think he believes in anything at all. That is
:33:11. > :33:16.something people in the Conservative Party also believe? The Conservative
:33:17. > :33:19.Party hasn't convinced that we understand how tough life for people
:33:20. > :33:22.is. They like our positions on Europe, crime and immigration, but
:33:23. > :33:26.who will look after us in tough times. That is the question they are
:33:27. > :33:32.worried about. Is it not the case to say many grassroots Tories don't
:33:33. > :33:35.care about same-sex marriage or women bishops in the Church of
:33:36. > :33:39.England, and annoyed about the delay in the married tax allowance. They
:33:40. > :33:43.see David Cameron as being of a completely different ilk and that
:33:44. > :33:47.they can't relate to, and he in a sense can't relate to them. I think
:33:48. > :33:52.the traditional right has stuff to learn from David Cameron on those
:33:53. > :33:57.issues. In 2050 Michael Howard says the way t party is going, we have
:33:58. > :34:00.tested this and we don't have the right model. It seems what you are
:34:01. > :34:04.saying is they don't have the right model to win majority. They still
:34:05. > :34:09.don't have the right model. The election to learn from is 1992, when
:34:10. > :34:12.John Major combined a pretty traditional Conservative recipe on
:34:13. > :34:16.tax cuts. Remember the tax bombshell campaign, a very Tory message. But
:34:17. > :34:20.people looked at him and thought that is the upwardly mobile
:34:21. > :34:23.classless Conservative Party I want to support. They don't see that at
:34:24. > :34:28.the moment. It is the combination of those da things that will transform
:34:29. > :34:33.the Conservative Party. In 1992 you didn't have UKIP. There is an
:34:34. > :34:37.important point here. You had the Referendum Party. The important
:34:38. > :34:39.point in your film you made the point that the Conservative Party
:34:40. > :34:43.has to reach out to people voting for UKIP, but there is an enormous
:34:44. > :34:48.danger that people will see that as the Conservative Party reaching out
:34:49. > :34:53.to UKIP itself. If there are Lib Dem strategists or Millennium Dome
:34:54. > :34:55.around Ed Miliband watching this -- or people around Ed Miliband
:34:56. > :35:00.watching this they will be praying for this. The right themselves are
:35:01. > :35:04.very divided? They are, and now David Cameron's biggest problem.
:35:05. > :35:10.Margaret Thatcher won elections in the 1980s because the right was
:35:11. > :35:15.united and the left divide. If it stays disunited will he win another
:35:16. > :35:19.election? It would be very hard, he must unite the right to win the next
:35:20. > :35:23.election. He's doing good things in that direction. It is finding issues
:35:24. > :35:27.that will appeal to the UKIP voter and the Lib Dem vote e which
:35:28. > :35:35.includes cost of living and other issues that aren't just the typical
:35:36. > :35:38.predictable issues. Chel le's presidential elections this year
:35:39. > :35:44.comes exactly 40 years after the military coup that brought General
:35:45. > :35:49.Pinochet to power. And the military dictatorship ruled for 17 years. As
:35:50. > :35:53.much as Chile wants to move on and forget the horrors of this that era.
:35:54. > :36:03.The shadows are present and amongst the presidential candidates
:36:04. > :36:08.themselves. The campaign is well under way, with two clear front
:36:09. > :36:12.runners emerging in the polls. Former President Michelle Bachelet
:36:13. > :36:17.of the Socialist Party, elected President eight years ago and served
:36:18. > :36:21.for four. And her main right-wing rival, Evelyn Matthei. That there
:36:22. > :36:27.are two women running for the top job in a Latin American country is
:36:28. > :36:30.extraordinary enough. The tale of friendship, betrayal and death
:36:31. > :36:34.behind the two of them, both daughters of general, brought up
:36:35. > :36:45.together in the same military base, , however, even stranger.
:36:46. > :36:50.But the story that links the two presidential candidates is a very
:36:51. > :36:55.real part of the most turbulent episode of Chile's 20th century
:36:56. > :37:06.history, that began here at the Presidential Palace 40 years ago.
:37:07. > :37:09.On September 1 th General Pinochet ordered the bombing of the palace,
:37:10. > :37:20.at the start of the coup that brought down the democratically
:37:21. > :37:24.elected Government and socialist president Allende, who died in the
:37:25. > :37:32.attack. Like most of the military, the then kern knell Fernando
:37:33. > :37:36.Matadores, father of Evelyn, supported General Pinochet. Before
:37:37. > :37:42.the coup the family were friends and neighbours of the Bachelet, but
:37:43. > :37:47.General Alberto Bachelet, here with his family, the young Michelle at
:37:48. > :37:53.the front, remained loyal to Allende. The era of terror began.
:37:54. > :38:02.Thousands of supporters of the legitimate Government were rounded
:38:03. > :38:09.up, imprisoned, tortured and killed. They are all now honoured at the
:38:10. > :38:16.Museum of Memory in Santiagon. I met with a fellow prisoner with Alberto
:38:17. > :38:23.Bachelet when he died of a heart attack in 1974. TRANSLATION: Finding
:38:24. > :38:28.himself striped of his medals and tortured and abused by his
:38:29. > :38:31.subordinates was a terrible psychological torture in itself.
:38:32. > :38:35.More painful than any physical abuse he suffered. They carried on, even
:38:36. > :38:43.though they knew he had already suffered two heart attacks. General
:38:44. > :38:51.Bachelet died of that torture? TRANSLATION: Absolutely. The for
:38:52. > :38:57.theure took place at this academy. Evelyn's father was put in charge
:38:58. > :39:05.here a month before Alberto Bacholet died. Today General Fernando Matti
:39:06. > :39:08.lives behind the gates here. He turned down the request for an
:39:09. > :39:13.interview and has denied any involvement in the for theure --
:39:14. > :39:17.torture and death of his friend, either by act or omission.
:39:18. > :39:23.TRANSLATION: The accusation against him is not for being the direct
:39:24. > :39:27.perpetrator of the murder of General Bacholet, but he was obliged under
:39:28. > :39:34.law to stop or report what was happening. This man is a legal
:39:35. > :39:40.adviser in the Allende Government, and has failed to get the General to
:39:41. > :39:46.court. He says the country's laws of immunity make it hard and this is a
:39:47. > :39:53.particular difficult case. TRANSLATION: If you take into the
:39:54. > :39:56.account that until there are two presidential candidates, the
:39:57. > :40:00.daughter of the General and the daughter of the victim, there is a
:40:01. > :40:04.whole political dynamic involved, which explains why judges refuse to
:40:05. > :40:17.enforce the law and indict. It is unfair, arbitary, but in Chile we
:40:18. > :40:22.are used to this kind of thing. Santiagon is littered with grim
:40:23. > :40:27.reminders of the past. This woman is the director of another former
:40:28. > :40:32.torture centre. Where, in the garden every rose represents a woman
:40:33. > :40:43.killed. She barely survived the torture, which involved beatings,
:40:44. > :40:47.electric shocks and more. TRANSLATION: There was a particular
:40:48. > :40:54.torture they used against women, like me, who refused to talk, which
:40:55. > :40:58.involved McVie lent sexual abuse -- violent sexual abuse, I was pregnant
:40:59. > :41:04.at the time and I lost my baby. They said the country did not need
:41:05. > :41:08.another baby of a Marxist. The buildings of the time have been
:41:09. > :41:12.destroyed, but they have built a model of the cell where she was held
:41:13. > :41:18.blindfolded for weeks at a time, with four others. Michelle Bachelet,
:41:19. > :41:26.then in her 20s was also held in one of these cells and tortured for her
:41:27. > :41:31.left-wing beliefs. Which brings us to another mystery in this story.
:41:32. > :41:34.The reluck tense of so many in Chile, including Michelle Bachelet
:41:35. > :41:41.herself to talk about what happened in the Pinochet years. Is it an
:41:42. > :41:45.advantage to your campaign that your main rival's father is being
:41:46. > :41:49.implicated in the death of yours? I have been speaking about this for
:41:50. > :41:58.some time, I think it is, I think it is the, I mean we believe that every
:41:59. > :42:06.candidate has their own history, my history is completely different from
:42:07. > :42:11.her history. And I hope that our citizens will make the best decision
:42:12. > :42:15.in terms of who is the person who can interpret better the Chilean
:42:16. > :42:23.needs. Would Evelyn Matthei say any more?
:42:24. > :42:31.(Speaks in Spanish) I asked her about the events of 40 years ago and
:42:32. > :42:33.in particular the case of General Bacholet and her father.
:42:34. > :42:43.TRANSLATION: I'm not going to answer questions on this topic, obviously
:42:44. > :42:50.angry. For the past 30 years widows like
:42:51. > :42:53.Gabriella have performed in public the solitary version of a national
:42:54. > :43:03.dance that is normally for a couple. To draw attention to Chile's over
:43:04. > :43:07.1,000 disappeared. TRON My partner was a political secretary in the
:43:08. > :43:16.Communist Party. They grabbed him off the street and held him in the
:43:17. > :43:37.prison. I thought they might arrest him, but I never thought they could
:43:38. > :43:41.make him disappear. Never. There is a monument for those who
:43:42. > :43:45.were killed but who have no grave, and grieving relatives are angry
:43:46. > :43:51.that there are members of the military around today who know where
:43:52. > :43:57.the bodies are. Some people have been in denial for
:43:58. > :44:02.40 years. The drama of this story of this nightmare is that many of them
:44:03. > :44:10.are still alive, and do have the information that they are not
:44:11. > :44:14.willing to give away and to speak. Michelle Bachelet is almost certain
:44:15. > :44:20.to win this election. Will she do something. TRANSLATION: I think she
:44:21. > :44:24.should, afterall she's part of this, she had family who died. Let's hope
:44:25. > :44:29.she does. The call for accountability comes
:44:30. > :44:33.not only from those who were alive at the time, but as I discovered,
:44:34. > :44:39.talking to a group of student, from the young as well. TRANSLATION: This
:44:40. > :44:45.year's elections are strongly connected with the events of the
:44:46. > :44:51.past. Matthei could be seen as the face of the military Government,
:44:52. > :44:57.where as Batchelet can be seen as the representative of Allende, it
:44:58. > :45:03.opens all the old wounds of supporters.
:45:04. > :45:08.Pinochet's office is now a museum, the general himself was arrested in
:45:09. > :45:13.London, but never brought to trial in Chile to face charges of torture
:45:14. > :45:18.and murder. Other senior military figures are in jail, but many more
:45:19. > :45:26.have not been tried for crimes even with Pinochet's own spokesman
:45:27. > :45:31.admits. TRANSLATION: The internal conflicts of a country are usually
:45:32. > :45:35.tremenduously cruel. And we try to avoid excesses all all times. But we
:45:36. > :45:41.had to fight the extremist movement, and in this kind of fight, you
:45:42. > :45:50.always make mistakes and commit atrocities and excesses. The odds
:45:51. > :45:54.are on Michelle Bachelet returning here as President, this time there
:45:55. > :46:01.will be a lot more pressure on her to tackle the Pinochet legacy.
:46:02. > :46:10.That's just about all for this Hallowe'en night. Be careful out
:46:11. > :46:20.there, good night. (Michael Jackson's thriller)
:46:21. > :46:30.# The foulest stench is in the air # The funk of 40,000 years
:46:31. > :46:36.# And grizzly ghouls from every tomb # Are closing in to seal your doom
:46:37. > :46:42.# And though you fight # To stay alive
:46:43. > :46:55.# Your body starts to shiver # For no mere mortal can resist
:46:56. > :47:03.# The evil of the Thriller (scary laughter)
:47:04. > :47:08.Further bouts of wet and windy weather will sweep across all areas
:47:09. > :47:12.over the next few day, the rain on Friday will eratically head its way
:47:13. > :47:16.north and eastwards across England and Wales. Where as for a good part
:47:17. > :47:19.of Scotland and Northern Ireland, the winds will be lighter than today
:47:20. > :47:24.and spells of sunshine. Maybe just one or two scattered showers,
:47:25. > :47:27.frequent showers in western Scotland where the wind will remain strong.
:47:28. > :47:31.For eastern and southern Scotland dry and bright with sunshine. Good
:47:32. > :47:34.to start off with sunshine over north-east England, the rain will
:47:35. > :47:39.trickle in here come the afternoon. It will be dull and damp for most of
:47:40. > :47:42.the day across the Midlands. Dryer spells across East Anglia and the
:47:43. > :47:46.south-east, here the rain could get quite heavy on Friday evening. And
:47:47. > :47:50.the wind will start to strengthen also along the south coast. It will
:47:51. > :47:53.be overcast with outbreaks of rain, for most of the day across
:47:54. > :47:57.south-west England and also a fairly wet day for Wales. As I said that
:47:58. > :48:02.rain could get heavy across the south-east on Friday evening before
:48:03. > :48:05.clearing away. Which will allow another batch of wet weather to
:48:06. > :48:10.sweep across areas on Saturday. It will also be accompanied by strong
:48:11. > :48:14.and gusty winds. Sunshine developing later on Saturday, but only once we
:48:15. > :48:19.have got rid of the heavy downpour, which will sweep in it looks like
:48:20. > :48:23.from the Atlantic, a dry start on the east the rain will soon come and
:48:24. > :48:24.accompanied by the wind, getting stronger and