:00:11. > :00:18.The bank you own, RBS, decides not to break up, but put all its toxic
:00:19. > :00:21.assets in an internal Bad Bank. Here is George Osborne's explanation. The
:00:22. > :00:25.bad bits will be managed by a different team, who will wind them
:00:26. > :00:30.down or sell them off. Allowing it lend more to British businesses.
:00:31. > :00:33.What do the Treasury's cartoons tell us about when British tax-payers
:00:34. > :00:38.will get their money back. We have asked the man who wrote the book on
:00:39. > :00:45.RBS, Ian Martin, to explain. Keep your eye on this, the tiny cameras
:00:46. > :00:52.we could all use a high-tech breakthrough of possiblities, or Big
:00:53. > :00:56.Brother's nosier little brother. Newly convicted prisoners will be
:00:57. > :01:01.forced to earn proof links, starting from the bottom. We ask the man who
:01:02. > :01:08.wrote the speech Hug a Hoodie, how it could shake up jails in England
:01:09. > :01:21.and Wales. And this... I can assure you this is my kind of town.
:01:22. > :01:27.Good evening, the rise and fall and near utter collapse of the Royal
:01:28. > :01:29.Bank of Scotland is one of the most extra ordinary stories of the
:01:30. > :01:33.banking crisis. Today there were signs of new life. Over the years
:01:34. > :01:38.some assumed the way to save RBS would be to dump its most toxic
:01:39. > :01:42.assets in a new separate Bad Bank, then try to get back the tax-payers'
:01:43. > :01:47.money from selling our stake in what remained. Now RBS has decided to
:01:48. > :01:50.keep the toxic acid dustbin within its own structure, fencing it off
:01:51. > :01:53.from other parts of the organisation. If banks in the past
:01:54. > :01:58.were too big to fail, would it be a good idea if banks were broadly
:01:59. > :02:02.forced to downsize. We asked the journalist Ian Martin, who recently
:02:03. > :02:07.published a book on the RBS story, to give his acements on what might
:02:08. > :02:12.end up best for the banks, the taxpayer and the country.
:02:13. > :02:15.A draft report commissioned by the Government... Including a
:02:16. > :02:20.conversation recommendation to split the bank in two... I recommending
:02:21. > :02:25.breaking up Royal Bank of Scotland. That was then, today we learned they
:02:26. > :02:31.are not going to split RBS into a good bank and bad bank afterall.
:02:32. > :02:35.Following a year of turmoil and the removal of the chief executive that
:02:36. > :02:40.led the bank since the epic bail out in 2008. The Government have decided
:02:41. > :02:47.that RBS, for better or worse will hang on to its toxic debt. It flies
:02:48. > :02:52.in the face of advice from Mervyn King and Nigel Lawson. Both say that
:02:53. > :02:57.the stuff should be dumped. What are we talking about? What is toxic
:02:58. > :03:01.debt? Toxic debt is the very worst stuff on a bank's balance sheet.
:03:02. > :03:07.Loans and other assets gone bad. We're talking about mortgages for
:03:08. > :03:11.homes, the owners struggle to repay, and borrowing by customers and
:03:12. > :03:15.companies that went bust. These were reckless loans made in the long boom
:03:16. > :03:20.and during the financial crisis of to 2008 they collapsed in value,
:03:21. > :03:25.leaving banks such as RBS exposed to losses. Pretty grim stuff. Is there
:03:26. > :03:32.way to get rid of it? Well there is no easy answer. One idea was to put
:03:33. > :03:36.all of the toxic stuff inside a separate RBS Bad Bank. But that
:03:37. > :03:43.raises another question, what exactly is a Bad Bank? It is where
:03:44. > :03:47.you dump your toxic debt. The idea is to park the bad loans weighing
:03:48. > :03:53.the bank down and put it in a different bank, your Badger, to be
:03:54. > :03:57.owned by the -- your Bad Bank to be owned by the tax-payers. They can
:03:58. > :04:01.sell off the risky assets to investors who think they might make
:04:02. > :04:06.a profit. That leaves the managers at the good bank free to focus on
:04:07. > :04:10.being bank. Lending money and making money and restoring themselves to
:04:11. > :04:13.rude financial health. Restored in this manner the good RBS could then
:04:14. > :04:20.have been sold off before the election, with garlands and mutual
:04:21. > :04:24.back slaps all round. But after a four-month look at the nuts and
:04:25. > :04:27.bolts the Government and RBS have decided that this option is
:04:28. > :04:33.potentially too complicated and messy. Instead they will create a
:04:34. > :04:38.Bad Bank inside RBS. It is a tweaking of the existing structure.
:04:39. > :04:43.So the option of a proper good bank and bad bank is effectively dead. So
:04:44. > :04:46.are George Osborne's hopes of a pre-election sell-off. I think it is
:04:47. > :04:50.frankly unlikely that we will be able to sell RBS before the general
:04:51. > :04:54.election. Just because there is a lot of work to be done to make sure
:04:55. > :04:57.that RBS cleans up the mistakes of the past, gets out of its big
:04:58. > :05:03.American operations and focuses on Britain. Supports small business,
:05:04. > :05:07.that is all going to take a bit of time. The Treasury hailed today's
:05:08. > :05:11.announcement as a brave, bold new start, for an institution that is
:05:12. > :05:17.still more than 80% owned by the taxpayer. The markets however were
:05:18. > :05:22.sceptical. Shares in RBS fell 7. 5%. The bottom line is RBS has a long
:05:23. > :05:27.road ahead, as its new boss tries to make it a healthy, profitable bank.
:05:28. > :05:35.Until he does that the prospect of the taxpayer getting any of the ?45
:05:36. > :05:39.billion we sunk into RBS remains a distant prospect.
:05:40. > :05:43.Ian Martin is with us, along with the banking commentator, Frances
:05:44. > :05:47.Coppola. Firstly the banking story we talked about last night,
:05:48. > :05:52.allegations of fixing foreign exchange rates has taken a new twist
:05:53. > :05:55.today. We have the details. What has been happening? Very interesting day
:05:56. > :06:00.of further developments on this story. Tonight Citigroup and JP
:06:01. > :06:03.Morgan have confirmed that US regulators have approached them
:06:04. > :06:07.about foreign exchange dealings. Earlier it emerged that Barclays had
:06:08. > :06:12.suspended six traders, coming after news I reported last night that RBS
:06:13. > :06:17.has suspended two of its traders and various other banks had sent
:06:18. > :06:20.executives off on "leave. At this stage there is no evidence of any
:06:21. > :06:24.wrongdoing, the investigation is at an early stage. I get a sense in the
:06:25. > :06:28.City that there is a real sense this is an international issue now. It
:06:29. > :06:33.has been taken extremely seriously at the major banks. There is a worry
:06:34. > :06:36.I think in some sources that it has the potential, potential I stress,
:06:37. > :06:40.possibly to get to the scale of another LIBOR scandal. If it did
:06:41. > :06:44.that would be disastrous for the reputation of banks in the City
:06:45. > :06:48.trying to rebuild after a all that emerged last year. We will be
:06:49. > :06:53.following that. On the wider story that you covered today for us.
:06:54. > :06:56.George Osborne has said this new RBS will be out batting for Britain. Is
:06:57. > :07:00.that the way you see it that we should actually cheer that A Bigger
:07:01. > :07:05.Splash bank will remain? What he means there is he means that the
:07:06. > :07:10.Government wants RBS to become quite boring, it wants it to be much more
:07:11. > :07:14.like Lloyd's, to focus on the domestic market and to sell off some
:07:15. > :07:18.of its operation, or pretty much all its operations in America and become
:07:19. > :07:23.something not exciting. They feel the taxpayer has probably had quite
:07:24. > :07:30.enough excitement with RBS. Enough to last a while. There has been a
:07:31. > :07:33.change of tone, hasn't there, by the Bank of England and the new Governor
:07:34. > :07:36.of the Bank of England, he has been suggesting there are reasons to be
:07:37. > :07:40.very cheerful about big banks, that is not quite the same tone that
:07:41. > :07:48.Mervyn King was adopting in charge? It is as if Nauth, mark carne knee
:07:49. > :07:51.-- Mark Carney made a speech for the 150th anniversary of the FT, I would
:07:52. > :07:56.classify it as one of the most important speeches on public policy
:07:57. > :08:00.in the last couple of decades. He essentially acknowledged that the UK
:08:01. > :08:05.banking system is enormous, and it had become 450% of GDP on total
:08:06. > :08:08.assets by the time of the crisis. He was saying we shouldn't be too
:08:09. > :08:17.worried about that and the banking system, still about 350% of GDP, we
:08:18. > :08:22.can envisage that as esently being nine-times GDd -- eventually being
:08:23. > :08:25.nine-times GDP, why, because the systems introduced make it safer and
:08:26. > :08:30.we have learned lessons from the crisis. It sounds familiar. That is
:08:31. > :08:34.the problem isn't it, people all over Britain listening to, that they
:08:35. > :08:39.didn't have much coverage at the time, but listening to think about
:08:40. > :08:42.that and say banks too big to fail, we have heard that before? They
:08:43. > :08:45.might very well. I want to put it in a bit of context though I was
:08:46. > :08:49.looking at the history of this earlier and realised in the whole
:08:50. > :08:53.history of the banking in the UK we have almost never had a big bank
:08:54. > :08:57.failure, RBS was a real revelation. People need to be not quite as
:08:58. > :09:01.worried as they are about big banks. Do you think the culture has really
:09:02. > :09:06.changed within these banks? I wouldn't like to say that. Culture
:09:07. > :09:12.change is a long and slow process. The I AW member writing in the FT
:09:13. > :09:18.made that point forcefully recently. It is a long haul to change the
:09:19. > :09:20.culture in banks. I have no doubt there will be further problems
:09:21. > :09:24.resulting from what we call bad behaviour. It doesn't mean another
:09:25. > :09:28.failure. In that sense then should we be quite happy or relaxed about
:09:29. > :09:33.the idea that big banks will continue. TSB has been hived off
:09:34. > :09:38.from Lloyd's, so banks can lose bits here and there? Yes. Without any
:09:39. > :09:42.particular problems. So should we as citizens be fairly happy that the
:09:43. > :09:47.big beasts remain? I think so. I think they serve a useful purpose.
:09:48. > :09:51.Large universal banks have been a feature of the European banking
:09:52. > :09:56.landscape for a long time and really rather successfully. The subtitle of
:09:57. > :09:59.your book was the men who blew the British economy and they did nearly?
:10:00. > :10:03.I think we should be really concerned about it. Writing a book
:10:04. > :10:07.about the subject, I'm not a financial journalist by trade, I'm a
:10:08. > :10:14.political journalist, but the jaw-dropping moment for me came when
:10:15. > :10:20.you look at the graph of how fast British banking grew it used to be
:10:21. > :10:23.73% of GDP and by the time of the crisis it was 450% of GDP. The
:10:24. > :10:26.lesson is there is no end of boom and bust, banks will always go bust,
:10:27. > :10:30.there will always be a downturn in the economy. But the difference is
:10:31. > :10:34.that if you have small manageable banks, lots of them competing, and
:10:35. > :10:38.they are not bigger than the economy or excessively large, when they blow
:10:39. > :10:41.up they won't blow up the rest of the economy and won't do the damage
:10:42. > :10:45.on the scale that was done. The worst economic damage in this
:10:46. > :10:48.country for seven decades. You are more of a fan of the, small is
:10:49. > :10:53.beautiful and all that kind of thing. You think smaller banks maybe
:10:54. > :10:57.would be better for all of us? I'm a fatalist about it, I think banks
:10:58. > :11:05.will continue throughout human history to blow up and people will
:11:06. > :11:08.become prone to mania and hubris and madness during a boom. In those
:11:09. > :11:12.circumstances, if you accept that, it is sensible to have banking
:11:13. > :11:17.system I think that is more manageable proportions so that when
:11:18. > :11:21.banks blow up or go bust that they don't cause the absolute carnage
:11:22. > :11:28.that RBS caused. RBS, by the time you hit the crisis, RBS has a
:11:29. > :11:35.balance sheet that's bigger than the UK economy. It is a timebomb by
:11:36. > :11:38.2007/08. The culture you said, it is difficult to say whether cultures
:11:39. > :11:41.have changed, but the regulations have changed and the oversight has
:11:42. > :11:44.changed enough to prevent this happening again? And continuing to
:11:45. > :11:48.do so. We haven't finished with the regulatory change by any means yet.
:11:49. > :11:51.We have got layer upon layer of regulation being added. I have
:11:52. > :11:55.concerns that we may be slightly overdoing it and pinning them down
:11:56. > :12:01.so tightly that they actually can't move. Which also makes it pretty
:12:02. > :12:06.useless, to be honest. In a moment: The sound of disco
:12:07. > :12:17.music was in the air, I wandered over to see what gives. It was an
:12:18. > :12:21.over-40s competition and incredible. Now, imagine a world in which
:12:22. > :12:24.instead of spies, security companies and Government agencies being able
:12:25. > :12:28.to film any detail of your lives, you could do that for yourself. The
:12:29. > :12:32.technology is already here, cameras small enough to be mounted on any of
:12:33. > :12:39.us, capable of recording pretty much anything we want. We asked the
:12:40. > :12:44.former Government high-tech adviser and entre pen -- entrepenur Rohan
:12:45. > :12:49.Silva to give us an idea of what might be in our future. We are on
:12:50. > :12:53.the cusp of a new era, where computers and cameras have become so
:12:54. > :12:58.small they can be worn on our wrists, faces and even embedded in
:12:59. > :13:00.our clothing. These wearable computers will
:13:01. > :13:08.provide us with new service, but they mean that our entire lives can
:13:09. > :13:11.soon be recorded and analyses forever.
:13:12. > :13:15.If everything in If everything in our lives can be recorded the
:13:16. > :13:19.privacy implications are vast. How might we change our behaviour if we
:13:20. > :13:23.know the person we are talking to is recording the conversation. How will
:13:24. > :13:28.the new technologies alter our perception of what is public and
:13:29. > :13:31.private. The first wave of wearable computers and cameras are now coming
:13:32. > :13:35.on to the market. These devices are powerful enough to record our
:13:36. > :13:41.movement, conversations and physical health, and permanently store all of
:13:42. > :13:44.this personal information. Innovative entrepeneurs and
:13:45. > :13:48.campaigners have been experimenting for several years. Their work can
:13:49. > :13:54.help reveal how these technologies might affect our lives. The guy here
:13:55. > :13:59.is a base commander and responsible for a lot of kidnappings, murders,
:14:00. > :14:06.rape. He don't know that he's being filmed. This man is cofounder of a
:14:07. > :14:10.charity that uses wearable cameras to uncover human rights abuses in
:14:11. > :14:15.oppressive regimes. This is their first television interview. Because
:14:16. > :14:19.it is not safe in this area to work with regular cameras or phones, so
:14:20. > :14:24.we are distributing hidden cameras. Do you have any of these cameras
:14:25. > :14:28.that we might look at? I can show you the proto-type, we are not using
:14:29. > :14:32.it at the moment, but for example in some places we wanted to create a
:14:33. > :14:38.cross that is a camera. So the camera is hidden inside. It is a
:14:39. > :14:42.protest Poe type. This was worn by? People going to church and others.
:14:43. > :14:45.What we are doing is talking the technology from inside the cameras
:14:46. > :14:49.that we are buying in China, breaking it apart and building
:14:50. > :14:52.cameras suitable for the environment. To protect their
:14:53. > :14:56.sources they operate using a cell structure much like an underground
:14:57. > :15:01.resistance. The footage they capture is used to bring attention to these
:15:02. > :15:06.abuses through the world's media. In this country we have a lot of
:15:07. > :15:09.footage of intimidation done by perpetrators who were sure because
:15:10. > :15:13.they are working in the rural areas there is impunity and nobody could
:15:14. > :15:16.see them. This was ahead of an election? This specific project was
:15:17. > :15:21.coming to the elections in this country. The footage was broadcast
:15:22. > :15:24.mostly in the local channels. The perpetrators see someone is seeing
:15:25. > :15:27.them. It is an immediate deterrent, suddenly they are not alone,
:15:28. > :15:31.suddenly somebody is watching them. Here in the west many people are
:15:32. > :15:35.concerned about privacy, how do you think about those kinds of issues
:15:36. > :15:39.when you are filming in Africa and across the world? The problem is
:15:40. > :15:44.rape, torture, abuses in these countries, less the privacy. These
:15:45. > :15:48.technologies could have a significant political impact around
:15:49. > :15:57.the world. But closer to home, what might be the consequences for our
:15:58. > :16:01.social and personal lives? James is an artist whose work examples our
:16:02. > :16:07.relationship with technology. He has created art using wearable cameras
:16:08. > :16:10.that explore what will happen when this technology will start to be
:16:11. > :16:14.used by more and more people. When you are filming constantly, that is
:16:15. > :16:17.overwhelming, as one person I can't even possibly review the amount of
:16:18. > :16:22.data I have Kambin rated as an individual. What that -- generated
:16:23. > :16:27.as an individual. What this says to me is how this is a computer's way
:16:28. > :16:30.of seeing. We need smarter and smarter computers in order to
:16:31. > :16:34.process all the information that the other computers are generating. The
:16:35. > :16:38.more cameras there are, the smarter et systems become and the less human
:16:39. > :16:41.they become essentially. Although he's excited about the creative
:16:42. > :16:45.opportunities, James believes we need a debate about the vast amounts
:16:46. > :16:52.about the personal information that these new wearable computers will be
:16:53. > :16:56.collecting? Despite corporations and Governments are gathering
:16:57. > :17:05.information about us, most people seem unbothered, even after the
:17:06. > :17:09.Snowden deck backle. I think it will taken a information crash for us to
:17:10. > :17:13.realise how much information we are giving up. How will we strike the
:17:14. > :17:19.right balance between privacy and innovation. Microsoft researchers
:17:20. > :17:23.Gordon Bell has spent years wearing computers to record everything he
:17:24. > :17:28.does and who he needs. Meets. He understands better than anyone else
:17:29. > :17:33.how the technology will develop. By 2020 we will be recording everything
:17:34. > :17:39.we hear and see. So this device like this gets us everything we see
:17:40. > :17:47.whether it will be socially acceptable to record everything you
:17:48. > :17:51.ever heard is unclear. Did the recordings replace your memory? Now
:17:52. > :17:58.I don't even think of it as back up to my memory. I think it is my true
:17:59. > :18:07.memory. So the computer is the e-memory, my biomemory is really
:18:08. > :18:14.just a URL to the e-memory. So, here is my true memory is here. Some
:18:15. > :18:18.people are concerned though about the privacy issues raised by the
:18:19. > :18:21.data capture. What is your view on that? I share very little
:18:22. > :18:25.information about myself, where I have been, what I'm doing and
:18:26. > :18:31.thinking and all that. Now that's totally in contrast to generation Y
:18:32. > :18:38.wanting to say everything about their lives. Facebook, and Twitter
:18:39. > :18:46.kind of have broken that mould of the idea of privacy that at least I
:18:47. > :18:51.had. The age of wearable computers that can record our entire lives is
:18:52. > :18:55.not science fiction, it is the world we are starting to live in today.
:18:56. > :19:01.But it might take years for the full social and political implications to
:19:02. > :19:05.be understood. These new wearable technologies are sure to deepen the
:19:06. > :19:10.debate about personal privacy. That is understandable. These devices are
:19:11. > :19:15.also being used to tackle human rights abuse, create new works of
:19:16. > :19:18.art and deepen our understanding of the world around us. I hope we are
:19:19. > :19:22.able to take stock of those opportunities as well as the risks.
:19:23. > :19:32.Because in the end it is not the technology that matters, it is what
:19:33. > :19:36.we choose to do with it that counts. Our guests are here. Are you as
:19:37. > :19:41.enthusiastic about the fairly endless possibilities of this as
:19:42. > :19:44.Rohan is? There are endless possibilities but the critical
:19:45. > :19:48.system is people need to trust the systems to use them. If people are
:19:49. > :19:52.sceptical we won't have the uptake we need to see the benefits. That is
:19:53. > :19:58.why regulation is very important. You need to protect people's privacy
:19:59. > :20:01.so they trust using the systems won't mean their insurance company
:20:02. > :20:04.or lawyer suddenly ends up with reams of data about their lives.
:20:05. > :20:09.Isn't one of the implications of this is privacy is dead, we have
:20:10. > :20:12.just not noticed? Privacy is different than 50 years ago. The
:20:13. > :20:16.need for privacy to deal with medical issues or voting, privacy is
:20:17. > :20:21.still very important. So we do need to find way to preserve it, if for
:20:22. > :20:25.no other reason than that is how we understand who we are is in private.
:20:26. > :20:29.Not broadcasting everything to determine things like our health and
:20:30. > :20:32.sexuality. There is obviously huge interest in this and advantages to
:20:33. > :20:36.it and so on. But there are people right now with today's technology
:20:37. > :20:39.who do some pretty weird and inappropriate things, filming things
:20:40. > :20:44.they shouldn't, filming women in situations they shouldn't, even
:20:45. > :20:49.perhaps children. So this could be a tool that would be used by people
:20:50. > :20:54.who are basically perverts? It is incredibly important there is robust
:20:55. > :20:59.regulation. There already S my concern -- is, my concern is the
:21:00. > :21:02.reason the technological devices are all coming from America and Asia is
:21:03. > :21:08.that European regulators every time there is a new technology develop
:21:09. > :21:13.new regulation to keep pace. All it is doing is leaving Europe at a big
:21:14. > :21:17.disadvantage. If we are so afraid of the down sides we lose sight of the
:21:18. > :21:23.upside possibilities. Regulation very, very important. What I'm
:21:24. > :21:26.excited about are the technological responses to the issues. Device that
:21:27. > :21:32.is can monitor and tell you when you are recorded, you are starting to
:21:33. > :21:36.see apps emerging telling you which companies are using your data. That
:21:37. > :21:40.is a better response. Do you see a generational divide, the Facebook
:21:41. > :21:45.generation don't care about some of the issues you care a lot about,
:21:46. > :21:49.privacy not so much? The pace of change is so fast, some young people
:21:50. > :21:53.were going through school when Facebook launched a decade ago who
:21:54. > :21:57.are now trying to get jobs and are seeing the impact of the data they
:21:58. > :22:00.shared coming back to haunt them. I think you are now being people
:22:01. > :22:04.seeing more aware and thinking about what they share in a different way.
:22:05. > :22:07.When you talk about technological possiblities that is great, but the
:22:08. > :22:10.idea of being able to regulate something that I don't know you are
:22:11. > :22:14.wearing, and you are filming things that I don't want you to film. Do I
:22:15. > :22:22.have no rights, or does Nick have no rights in this. Regulating that may
:22:23. > :22:25.be essential but not possible? It is great question, in truth this is all
:22:26. > :22:29.emerging so quickly it will take time for us to develop new social
:22:30. > :22:34.norms, new technological responses, and maybe over time some regulatory
:22:35. > :22:37.responses too. My question to Nick would be, a lot of these concerns
:22:38. > :22:41.raised are about companies being able to access our data, and I would
:22:42. > :22:45.say that we consent to share our data with company in exchange for
:22:46. > :22:50.services. I'm much more afraid of what the Government is going to do.
:22:51. > :22:56.They can lock you up using your data and deprive of your freedom. Isn't
:22:57. > :23:00.that something to be more concerned about? I think that is absolutely
:23:01. > :23:03.right, Government can get data from the companies. It isn't just
:23:04. > :23:07.information the gets directly we know last year that Britain got more
:23:08. > :23:11.data from Skype than any other Government in the world. Governments
:23:12. > :23:15.go after the private data, both through legal channels and as we
:23:16. > :23:18.have learned in the past few day, not always legal channels. I think
:23:19. > :23:21.you do need to remember the best way to protect privacy is to control the
:23:22. > :23:25.information at source. That means giving people a legitimate informed
:23:26. > :23:29.choice about just what data you are collecting in the first place. We
:23:30. > :23:35.will leave it there, thank you very much.
:23:36. > :23:41.In Gilbert and Sullivan's opera The Mikado, it was talk of a short,
:23:42. > :23:47.sharp shock to teach the town a lesson. The phrase was given a new
:23:48. > :23:50.lease of life by Margaret Thatcher's Home Secretary, Willie Whitelaw, to
:23:51. > :23:55.advertise the tough treatment for young criminal, the phrase has
:23:56. > :24:01.disappeared, but the idea to make a prisoner's first experience in jail
:24:02. > :24:04.less comfortable, has been brought against incentive schemes for good
:24:05. > :24:09.behaviour. I'm going to take action, tough action and I shall spell out
:24:10. > :24:15.that action. There is nothing new in policy makers talking about making
:24:16. > :24:22.prison tough. Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from
:24:23. > :24:28.murders, muggers and rapist, it makes many tempted to commit crime
:24:29. > :24:32.think twice. Traditionally they were once places
:24:33. > :24:36.of hard labour and toil. Today some feel prisons have got a bit soft and
:24:37. > :24:40.prisoners have it easy. The Government's response is to insist
:24:41. > :24:43.that new prisoners will have to earn many of the privileges that up until
:24:44. > :24:49.now they could take for granted. New prisoners will not be able to see
:24:50. > :24:53.adult movies, more Bambi than Rambo. Prison uniforms will be the first
:24:54. > :24:58.dress code rather than the privilege of being able to wear your own
:24:59. > :25:01.clothes. Behind the new regime is a simple principle, you are in jail
:25:02. > :25:05.now and if you want to make doing time easier, conform to the rules,
:25:06. > :25:11.otherwise the privileges once earned can easily be striped away. Danny
:25:12. > :25:18.Kruger who famously wrote David Cameron's Hug a Hoodie speech, and
:25:19. > :25:24.now runs the prisons rehabilitation service, Only Connect, do you think
:25:25. > :25:28.the Government is on the right track, starting in jail you start at
:25:29. > :25:31.the bottom and earn a better life? I think the principle is right. In
:25:32. > :25:36.practice this is probably not a huge change to the status quo. There is
:25:37. > :25:39.already lots of ways in which prisons manage their prisoners by
:25:40. > :25:45.giving and withdrawing proof limbings. I think it makes sense to
:25:46. > :25:50.-- proof limbs, I think it makes sense to start at the bottom and
:25:51. > :25:54.work your way up. This is different from the main thrust of what the
:25:55. > :25:57.Government is trying to do. It is a revolution in the way prisons are
:25:58. > :26:01.managed and the way prisoners are expected to behave. The real problem
:26:02. > :26:05.with prisoners is not to my mind how hard or soft the regime is, and what
:26:06. > :26:08.television stations they are allowed to watch, but the fact that they
:26:09. > :26:12.spend most of their time lying on their backs doing very little at
:26:13. > :26:16.all. Most people think prison is a violent and dangerous place, in fact
:26:17. > :26:19.they are pretty sleepy, very safe places where nothing much happens.
:26:20. > :26:23.What the Government is trying to do is turn them into places of industry
:26:24. > :26:27.and hard work. That is the main emphasis of the reforms. Ben do you
:26:28. > :26:31.buy into that, that this is part of a picture but it is important to set
:26:32. > :26:35.the tone right at the start when you enter prison? I think having the
:26:36. > :26:40.gates shut behind you sets the tone. You don't have to wear a stripy
:26:41. > :26:45.shirt to rub your nose in it. It is pointless and petty politicking. I
:26:46. > :26:48.can see a broad thrust in transforming rehabilitation and
:26:49. > :26:52.making prisons places of industry, and purposeful activity, not just
:26:53. > :26:57.mindless repetitive work, but genuine skilled work. But this has
:26:58. > :27:01.got nothing to do with it. Could you see that the reason this kind of
:27:02. > :27:06.idea keeps coming back and back is that it is very popular. People do,
:27:07. > :27:10.as Danny accepts, sitting at home think prisoners have an easy life,
:27:11. > :27:15.they get to choose to watch TV, there is no human right to watch a
:27:16. > :27:19.particular video, this is ridiculous? It also illustrates the
:27:20. > :27:24.ridiculousness of the counter policy. So you ban prisoners from
:27:25. > :27:29.buying 18-rated DVDs, what do they do, they rent their reel television
:27:30. > :27:35.from the prison for a pound a week and turn on late night film rated
:27:36. > :27:41.18. It is pointless, it is literally petty politicking and ministers
:27:42. > :27:50.interfering with the my New Yorkway of -- minute New Yorkia of prisons
:27:51. > :27:56.will get bitten. You seem to agree with changing the regime in terms of
:27:57. > :27:59.education and making stuff improving more prisoner, this sends the wrong
:28:00. > :28:02.signal, it is populist politics that we have seen many times before and
:28:03. > :28:06.it fails. As you said minutes Triaz get bitten when they do this kind of
:28:07. > :28:11.thing? They might do, that is for the politicians to decide for
:28:12. > :28:15.themselves. Ben has a good point. There is politics being played here.
:28:16. > :28:20.And what I worry about, I guess, is it feeds into the idea that it is
:28:21. > :28:24.possible to deter crime by having really regime, I do think we need to
:28:25. > :28:28.have what the minister describes as spartan regimes, it is appropriate
:28:29. > :28:31.that prisoners don't have better lifestyles on the inside than people
:28:32. > :28:37.have on the outside. Nevertheless it is not possible to deter or stop
:28:38. > :28:42.crime by making prisons more and more tough. Unless we are prepared
:28:43. > :28:46.to be not just spartan but medieval, unless we are prepared to brutalise
:28:47. > :28:50.prisons completely, we will never make prisons so unpleasant that the
:28:51. > :28:54.ones we need to worry about, the criminals, are deterred from going
:28:55. > :28:57.there. The fact is their home lives, their lives on the streets are so
:28:58. > :29:01.dangerous and so unpleasant that any form of prison in a civilised
:29:02. > :29:05.country will be safer than that. Deterrents through regime, tougher
:29:06. > :29:09.regime is not the answer to the real problem of prolific and violent
:29:10. > :29:13.crime. What we need to do with the criminals we are all so worried
:29:14. > :29:17.about is give them proper network, proper relationship, enable them to
:29:18. > :29:20.build supportive community that will be there for them both before and
:29:21. > :29:25.after they come out. That is the real emphasis. There is a difficulty
:29:26. > :29:32.with that, part of the proposal, the practice as it comes in today from
:29:33. > :29:36.Mr Greyling, is prisoner's contact with families is restricted. They
:29:37. > :29:40.are only allowed to spent X amount of money in their first two week,
:29:41. > :29:44.the main contact is by phone. Prisoners won't be able to phone
:29:45. > :29:50.home and maintain family contacts. You are playing the same game you
:29:51. > :29:53.are accusing Grayling of doing which is playing into the money issue. The
:29:54. > :29:56.overall thrust is to improve relationships through the gate
:29:57. > :29:59.before and after release to ensure prisoners spend the end of the
:30:00. > :30:03.sentence near their families where they will be released to. Allow
:30:04. > :30:08.charities like mine to work inside the prison and build the contacts
:30:09. > :30:12.before they go out. We have run out of time. That's all for this week,
:30:13. > :30:16.we leave you with news that New York Magazine is advising readers to give
:30:17. > :30:21.London a miss and instead recommends Birmingham as a better place for
:30:22. > :30:26.tourists. It happened before in 1981 the actor Telly Savalas told the
:30:27. > :30:33.world how wonderful Birmingham was. He never set foot in the place,
:30:34. > :30:40.recording his glowing travelogue in London's Soho. I can assure you this
:30:41. > :30:44.is my kind of town. The sound of disco music was in the
:30:45. > :30:56.air so I wandered over to see what gives? It was an over-40s
:30:57. > :31:01.competition and, incredible. Riding the express elevator to the top of
:31:02. > :31:08.one of the city's highest buildings, this is the view that nearly took my
:31:09. > :31:29.breath away. Yes, it is my kind of town, so,
:31:30. > :31:35.Hello, another blustery weekend across the UK, the wind dying down
:31:36. > :31:38.overnight means we will start off with a touch of frost across parts
:31:39. > :31:41.of eastern Scotland, fog in north-east England, the rain
:31:42. > :31:43.arriving in Northern Ireland, spiralling across northern England
:31:44. > :31:47.and much of Scotland through the day. By the afternoon we are left
:31:48. > :31:50.with sunny spells and showers from Northern Ireland. The wet weather
:31:51. > :31:55.moving north through the central belt and across the Grampians over
:31:56. > :31:57.500ms heavy snow through the afternoon. The rain lingering in
:31:58. > :32:01.Aberdeen through the night on Saturday night. After some heavy
:32:02. > :32:06.showers it turns brighter perhaps across eastern counties of England.
:32:07. > :32:10.Sunny spells here, a few showers whizzing through on the brisk
:32:11. > :32:15.breeze, when the sun is out we could get temperatures into the teens.
:32:16. > :32:18.Further west freak showers -- frequent showers, in Wales the winds
:32:19. > :32:22.will strengthen throughout the afternoon and evening and it is
:32:23. > :32:27.potentially causing a few issues, getting to 40-50 miles an hour,
:32:28. > :32:32.maybe more around the coast. With high tides that means big waves. The
:32:33. > :32:36.blustery continues will last through much of the night with England and
:32:37. > :32:41.Wales with further showers. Paris also looks fairly wet and windy on
:32:42. > :32:47.Saturday. Cooler but brighter on Sunday. Greece is a good bet at the
:32:48. > :32:52.moment. Working sou towards Lisbon arriving on Saturday night. As for
:32:53. > :32:53.the UK, Sunday is another breezy affair, rain in the north-east of