:00:00. > :00:08.Britain's most controversial business, Wonga, the payday loan
:00:09. > :00:13.company, they have become a byword for easy money at crippling interest
:00:14. > :00:21.rates. They don't like it. The idea we charge thousands of per cent
:00:22. > :00:27.interest is a myth. Their Chief Operating Officer is here to explain
:00:28. > :00:32.why all the negative press is wrong. And this. The radical feminist
:00:33. > :00:39.group, Femen coming to a protest near you. First the clubcard, now
:00:40. > :00:44.Tesco has a face-scanner, it will check your sex and age range to give
:00:45. > :01:07.you tailor-made adverts. Innocuous check your sex and age range to give
:01:08. > :01:11.profits out of people's financial pain is the accusation. But now one
:01:12. > :01:17.of the most prominent, Wonga, are on a charm offensive. Tomorrow they
:01:18. > :01:22.launch a Wonga-made movie featuring ten happy customers for whom fast
:01:23. > :01:32.money, they say, has been the answer to their prayers. I will speak to
:01:33. > :01:37.senior Wonga executive after this. I love cutting children's hair, they
:01:38. > :01:41.enjoy having their haircut in nursery... They are the voices of
:01:42. > :01:50.Wonga, according to none other than Wonga. Tomorrow the company will
:01:51. > :01:54.release a film imaginatively titled, Wonga the Movie, they feature people
:01:55. > :01:58.who have taken out loans and repaid them. We have been together three
:01:59. > :02:16.years, last year I asked her to marry me. My
:02:17. > :02:19.years, last year I asked her to out of money on a Friday night all
:02:20. > :02:23.you need is a smartphone and it can be in your account in five minutes.
:02:24. > :02:28.That allows some to dig themselves deeper into debt. You see them
:02:29. > :02:31.advertising, so easy to get. You go on-line and state how much you want.
:02:32. > :02:34.You don't notice how much interest you are paying back. I think the
:02:35. > :02:40.interest rate should definitely be capped. It is an awful lot of money
:02:41. > :02:49.they ask you for. Wonga's transparency makes it easy prey to
:02:50. > :02:54.seizing on to the high interest rates. It is as much as 1,000%.
:02:55. > :03:01.Wonga say customers don't pay that, they will by 1% day or 365% a year.
:03:02. > :03:05.All too tempting say critics for under-18s. They all claim to lend to
:03:06. > :03:08.them and Wonga say they are not like the other payday lenders, they need
:03:09. > :03:27.to come clean the other payday lenders, they need
:03:28. > :03:33.out of control. A million customers want this instant credit because
:03:34. > :03:37.they can't get it from bank. Wonga says eight out of ten applicants for
:03:38. > :03:42.a first loan are turned down. It is a question of whether the movie will
:03:43. > :03:47.be enough to outshout the crickets. Joining me now is the Chief
:03:48. > :03:53.Operating Officer of Wonga. First of all, did you realise your
:03:54. > :03:59.image was so bad you had to make your own movie? Today we are
:04:00. > :04:04.announcing a movie called 12 Portraits, and the director is
:04:05. > :04:09.trying to dispel some of the that our image, that you refer to, has
:04:10. > :04:13.out there in the UK. I think if you look at the movie, what you will see
:04:14. > :04:18.is a representation of our customer base, 12 portraits, in fact,
:04:19. > :04:37.representing a million active customers, you can make up your own
:04:38. > :04:40.representing a million active was paid their money back on term
:04:41. > :04:43.quickly. That is not the case for your customers? Gary first of all
:04:44. > :04:47.had complete editorial independence over what he made. Chose the
:04:48. > :04:52.customers himself. We gave him a database, selected them. We have a
:04:53. > :04:58.million active customers. Can I just take you back on that, free hand, he
:04:59. > :05:05.who pays the piper plays the tune, that is first of all, if Gary Tarn
:05:06. > :05:10.had produced a film that showed somebody defaulting on their Wonga
:05:11. > :05:19.loan having perhaps to pay 375% credit, getting another loan to pay
:05:20. > :05:23.off a Wonga loan, destitute on the Pavement, would you be happy for
:05:24. > :05:28.that to be on the film? There are 12 portraits and one has defaulted. If
:05:29. > :05:30.you look at interest on fees on our site on Wonga, included with one of
:05:31. > :05:47.those is site on Wonga, included with one of
:05:48. > :05:51.the voice of the silent majority, the people who use the service is
:05:52. > :06:00.not being heard. The trouble is if you present too rosy a picture it
:06:01. > :06:06.Encourages people to take out that loan. This is Liz Matthew this is
:06:07. > :06:11.what happened to her. I got into a vicious cycle where I had four loans
:06:12. > :06:19.and couldn't pay any of them back. How much was the original loan? The
:06:20. > :06:22.original was ?300 and I owe now ?2,000. I was very frightened and
:06:23. > :06:31.worried thinking how can I pay it back. You can't sleep at night. Now,
:06:32. > :06:35.Liz Matthews she had a first Wonga loan and a second one. What were the
:06:36. > :06:38.affordability checks. You say you do them but she got herself into
:06:39. > :06:58.terrible trouble? I can't comment them but she got herself into
:06:59. > :07:05.second was ?400 and then she got into trouble. The thing is with Liz
:07:06. > :07:14.Matthews you don't require any documents as proof of what they say
:07:15. > :07:22.is true?. We look at 8,000 thesis -- pieces of data. We look at how they
:07:23. > :07:26.navigate up to the website, if they slide up to the right they may not
:07:27. > :07:32.pay us back. Is it an on-line service? It is. That check can be
:07:33. > :07:37.made quickly. In five minutes? We mustn't confuse speed with accuracy.
:07:38. > :07:42.I was going to say the thing about Liz Matthews, I spoke to her today
:07:43. > :07:46.and she admitted to me that she had put down that she was employed on
:07:47. > :07:48.both occasions. And she wasn't employed. OK. So therefore she
:07:49. > :08:10.received money You have no way of checking that? We
:08:11. > :08:15.have a lot of ways of checking that Kirsty. Not with her? Liz may be a
:08:16. > :08:20.case that I don't right now have the details in front of me. What we're
:08:21. > :08:24.here to talk about is that there are a million customers of whom the
:08:25. > :08:29.vast, vast majority are happy, and their voice has not been heard. And
:08:30. > :08:32.they are being misrepresented as people who are like Liz as all poor
:08:33. > :08:36.and vulnerable and getting themselves into a spiral of debt.
:08:37. > :08:43.That is simply not true. It is the case that about seven. 5% either
:08:44. > :08:47.have rollovers that cost a lot of money -- 75% either have rollovers
:08:48. > :08:51.that cost them a lot of money. Those people are often desperate and will
:08:52. > :08:56.say things to get money when they can ill-afford to pay it back? I
:08:57. > :08:59.would not agree they are desperate. The reason I'm actually here and
:09:00. > :09:18.sitting here and made that film is because I
:09:19. > :09:22.sitting here and made that film is and hops of thousands of others, the
:09:23. > :09:29.second thing I'm surprised about is the reaction of the media and other
:09:30. > :09:32.commentators calling out the exceptions like Liz and assuming
:09:33. > :09:37.everyone is like that. When we talk about seven. 5% rollovers and
:09:38. > :09:40.defaults that is substantial. Are you confident that customers know
:09:41. > :09:46.exactly the consequences of taking out a Wonga loan? I'm very confident
:09:47. > :09:52.that we show everything as clearly and transparently as we possibly
:09:53. > :09:56.can. The price is marked very clearly on the sliders, the terms
:09:57. > :10:03.under which people borrow from us are marked very, very clearly. The
:10:04. > :10:08.fact that 90% of customers would recommend us to a friend is evidence
:10:09. > :10:10.they agree with us. Talking about the implication, I want you to
:10:11. > :10:28.explain this, this the implication, I want you to
:10:29. > :10:30.months, lenders will immediately automatically reject the
:10:31. > :10:32.application, or ask lots of questions about why that person can
:10:33. > :10:34.afford a mortgage now when they were clearly living from hand-to-mouth
:10:35. > :10:36.recently. In order to address that problem, because people don't
:10:37. > :10:40.appreciate the issues, I think it would be very sensible if payday
:10:41. > :10:45.loan lenders were required by the regulator to state on all their
:10:46. > :10:48.literature that taking out a payday loan may prejudice your ability to
:10:49. > :10:58.get a mortgage. That is a senior mortgage broker. And even if your
:10:59. > :11:01.customers are happy and pay back, the very issue of taking out a Wonga
:11:02. > :11:04.loan may impact on your ability to get a good mortgage? I can't comment
:11:05. > :11:16.on other financial institutions' policies, the regulator will decide
:11:17. > :11:19.if that is a right response. He's a senior mortgage broker, he will say
:11:20. > :11:20.in terms of credit rating if you wake a Wonga loan you
:11:21. > :11:42.in terms of credit rating if you with this, it is about transparency,
:11:43. > :11:46.you claim that Wonga is transparent. It is a fact that if you take out a
:11:47. > :11:51.loan from a payday loan company, when you go to put your mortgage
:11:52. > :11:56.application in, and goodness me Help To Buy is tough enough, that it may
:11:57. > :12:00.impact on your ability to get a good mortgage. It would be very simple to
:12:01. > :12:04.put that rider on your website, why don't you do it? Because, as I have
:12:05. > :12:08.explained, I don't know that is the policy of every single financial
:12:09. > :12:14.institution, as your colleague there says, or as your interviewee says,
:12:15. > :12:18.if the regulator thinks that is an appropriate thing to do they will do
:12:19. > :12:22.that. We are going through with the FT reviewing our business and the
:12:23. > :12:25.FCA the same. I'm sure they will tighten up practices across the
:12:26. > :12:29.whole of the industry and deal with those things as necessary. This is
:12:30. > :12:47.interesting, the regulator is looking at you, we say you
:12:48. > :12:50.interesting, the regulator is there, that we could do or others
:12:51. > :12:56.could do depending on their opinion. What we see is there is a huge
:12:57. > :13:03.Misper exception over the myths about Wonga out there. We are trying
:13:04. > :13:08.to show that actually that silent majority of people who haven't been
:13:09. > :13:13.heard and commentators who haven't taken and borrowed money for a week
:13:14. > :13:16.or ten days, are making commentary about our customers, we think that
:13:17. > :13:20.is very unfair. That is not commentary about your customer, what
:13:21. > :13:24.this mortgage broker is saying the evidence of having payday loan could
:13:25. > :13:29.impact on the chances of getting a decent mortgage. If you go and check
:13:30. > :13:34.that tomorrow, and that proves to be true, put it on your website now?
:13:35. > :13:36.Kirsty, as I said, two or three times now, I don't know what the
:13:37. > :13:58.financial institutions' policies are. Will you find out
:13:59. > :14:04.financial institutions' policies about mis s about -- miss
:14:05. > :14:08.Perceptions about customer, it may affect something in their future
:14:09. > :14:14.life and they are poor and vulnerable, the evidence I see is it
:14:15. > :14:18.is not the case in the majority of cases. We have looked at our
:14:19. > :14:22.customer base and invited a vulnerable person to exam that. I'm
:14:23. > :14:26.not suggesting that vulnerable people should be told that it might
:14:27. > :14:31.be difficult to get a good mortgage, I'm saying that anybody who takes
:14:32. > :14:37.out a payday loan, who rents a wonderful house and may have to buy
:14:38. > :14:41.may be impacted by a payday loan. Not people who are destitute, people
:14:42. > :14:46.looking for a mortgage. If it is the case if you check what that
:14:47. > :14:49.gentleman says tomorrow morning and find it to be true, in the pursuit
:14:50. > :15:09.of transpornly will you put it on find it to be true, in the pursuit
:15:10. > :15:13.for 17 days, it is not exactly a very long period of time. If they
:15:14. > :15:18.don't pay that back, of course that may impact their underlying credit
:15:19. > :15:22.rating. And what we think is... Even if they pay it back it will impact,
:15:23. > :15:28.that is what I'm saying. This was a senior Kensington mortgage brokers,
:15:29. > :15:32.a senior figure in the industry saying it is not whether you pay it
:15:33. > :15:36.back on time it is the fact they had payday loan? I ups that, there are
:15:37. > :15:41.many other commentaries on our business, such the price you
:15:42. > :15:48.referred to in the introduction, which are myths. We want people to
:15:49. > :15:52.understand that we are sharing all of our statistics and have a look at
:15:53. > :15:57.the film, our product is fair and transparent, and those customers are
:15:58. > :15:59.intelligent people, who in my opinion represent the average person
:16:00. > :16:19.in the UK. opinion represent the average person
:16:20. > :16:24.is the maxim that Andy Coulson is conducting his defence case. While
:16:25. > :16:28.his co-defendants chose to remain silent as the prosecution finished
:16:29. > :16:31.outlining his case. Coulson instructed counsel to deliver an
:16:32. > :16:36.opening statement, insisting he was never part of an agreement to hack
:16:37. > :16:40.phones, no matter what others were doing on his watch at the News of
:16:41. > :16:45.the World. This report contains flash photography.
:16:46. > :16:50.If the paper he had once edited was still around to report Coulson's
:16:51. > :16:55.trial, it might have come up with a headline like this. This wasn't Andy
:16:56. > :16:58.Coulson in the centre but his council, Timothy Langdale, who broke
:16:59. > :17:01.with normal procedure and made a speech to the jury, before the
:17:02. > :17:10.prosecution had even presented its case. Mr Langer Langdale said he was
:17:11. > :17:35.Far from being complicit in phone because he wanted to
:17:36. > :17:44.Far from being complicit in phone hacking, Mr Langdale told the jury
:17:45. > :17:45.that Andy Coulson had had his phone hacked by the private investigator,
:17:46. > :18:05.Glenn Mulcaire. As for the evidence so far suggested
:18:06. > :18:12.by the prosecution that Andy Coulson must have known what his reporters
:18:13. > :18:17.were allegedly up to. It was said that as editor he faced a blizzard
:18:18. > :18:21.of e-mails and couldn't possibly know the source for every story
:18:22. > :18:38.appearing in the news of the world. In any sense,
:18:39. > :18:43.appearing in the news of the world. evidence, Andy Coulson said that
:18:44. > :18:47.anyone at the News of the World had deleted the message. Something the
:18:48. > :18:51.prosecution has already agreed. There was talk about Prax Blackhawk,
:18:52. > :19:01.the alleged conspiracy between Rebekah Brooks and Charley Brook and
:19:02. > :19:08.Mark Hanna, to conspire to hide information from the police.
:19:09. > :19:12.Andy Coulson told the police that Rebekah Brooks would be next and if
:19:13. > :19:17.she was arrested they would have powers to search her houses. On the
:19:18. > :19:23.day that Rebekah Brooks was arrested the police were told staff who were
:19:24. > :19:28.working for her removed a back from her Oxfordshire home and taken to a
:19:29. > :19:29.London home. As the bag was dropped, a member of her security staff
:19:30. > :20:01.texted a colleague It was alleged today that Mrs Brooks
:20:02. > :20:06.instructed her PA, Cheryl Carter, to remove seven boxes of Mrs Brooks's
:20:07. > :20:11.notebooks from the News International archive. The notebooks
:20:12. > :20:14.have never been seen again. All the defendants deny the charges, the
:20:15. > :20:21.prosecution continues with its case tomorrow. The feminist protest
:20:22. > :20:25.group, Femen, founded in Ukraine and head quartered in France where it
:20:26. > :20:31.has its largest membership has announced it is setting up in
:20:32. > :20:38.Britain. The movement's trade mark is the topless ambush, protests
:20:39. > :20:40.against dictatorships and religion, they have a record of high-profile
:20:41. > :21:00.actions, including they have a record of high-profile
:21:01. > :21:10.it becomes a strength. Our body becomes our weapon. It is a naked
:21:11. > :21:15.warrior. They call themselves sex-tremists, they rage against
:21:16. > :21:19.patriarchy, religion, homophobia and authoritarianism. They are offensive
:21:20. > :21:29.wherever they go. Femen have upset Christians, Muslims and models. But
:21:30. > :21:35.not Vladimir Putin! They say it is war. It looks like theatre. So where
:21:36. > :21:41.better for Femen to base themselves than France. The home of street
:21:42. > :21:48.protest, revolution and a topless lady liberty. I have come to Femen's
:21:49. > :21:50.European headquarters here in Paris, it is also where they have their
:21:51. > :22:10.boot camp. Where they train up their it is also where they have their
:22:11. > :22:16.morally. Definitely you can't do such actions like we do, attacking
:22:17. > :22:20.Putin or climbing up on the top of a building in Davos on the economic
:22:21. > :22:26.forum where all the leaders of the Government are inside, you have to
:22:27. > :22:36.be well prepared. Inna Shevchenko is Femen's leader. She fled Kiev after
:22:37. > :22:43.taking a chainsaw to a crucifix, she said it was in support of Pussy
:22:44. > :22:48.Riot's protest against the Russian Orthodox Church. It won her many
:22:49. > :22:54.enemies, it had been a cross in memory of some of Stalin's victims.
:22:55. > :23:00.In France she has been given asylum from arrest. Femen say they are
:23:01. > :23:25.redefining nudity, breasts will not hear our slogans.
:23:26. > :23:29.In this exercise they are role playing a confrontation with the
:23:30. > :23:37.police, Femen are now fighting in nine countries. Gisela Perez is from
:23:38. > :23:41.Mexico. When I say naked war, when I tell my Government that they are
:23:42. > :23:50.dictator, when I tell them that I do not agree with them I stop becoming,
:23:51. > :23:55.I have a political will, that we go to prison for that.
:23:56. > :24:05.So where does Femen fit into the story of feminism. They are hardly
:24:06. > :24:11.the first feminists to be vilified. Mary Wolstencrft was called a high
:24:12. > :24:30.Ena, Mary Wolstencrft was called a high
:24:31. > :24:36.everything that has gone before. We are continuing something other women
:24:37. > :24:42.started before. What doesn't help is the revelation that Femen was set up
:24:43. > :24:47.by a man. The accusation is there are man's fantasy of what feminism
:24:48. > :24:51.should look like. When Femen bare their breasts are they really
:24:52. > :24:56.challenging the system or conforming to it? They say they are against the
:24:57. > :25:00.sexualisation and objectcation of women, but when they take their tops
:25:01. > :25:04.off, a lot of people look at them and think they look like sex objects
:25:05. > :25:11.and they have become the stereotype. Do you want to look sexy? Exactly,
:25:12. > :25:19.we are using what they made us and we're turning it against them. If
:25:20. > :25:21.you want I could say that Femen activists are like forcing Barbie to
:25:22. > :25:41.fight. Our Barbie "lock you lock you what"? Femen have
:25:42. > :25:47.tried to alie themselves with the women of the Arab Spring, but many
:25:48. > :25:51.think they are Islam phobic. Do you worry that you cause distress and
:25:52. > :25:57.people are alarmed at what you do? This is also the aim of activism. It
:25:58. > :26:02.is to make people react and realise things. To create a sparkle in
:26:03. > :26:09.people's minds. We are not against Islam specifically, we are against
:26:10. > :26:15.all religions, all the institutions. But can these arguments ever get
:26:16. > :26:20.through? When their tactics are so uncompromising, is anyone listening
:26:21. > :26:28.above the shouting? When I'm waking up a spend two to read some news,
:26:29. > :26:31.and I read and I check what happened during the last 24 hours, maybe 60%
:26:32. > :26:52.of all that during the last 24 hours, maybe 60%
:26:53. > :26:58.I think that's enough to ask why we do what we do. Femen are now
:26:59. > :27:00.recruiting in the UK, they haven't ruled out breaking into Buckingham
:27:01. > :27:08.Palace, and yes, taking their tops off in front of the Queen.
:27:09. > :27:14.The founder of a new tracking device has described it like the sci-fi
:27:15. > :27:17.movie Minority Report in which Tom Cruise's eyes are screened and
:27:18. > :27:23.advertising is tailored to his profile. That film was out in 2002
:27:24. > :27:30.and the future is here. At least on 450 Tesco petrol forecourts, soon as
:27:31. > :27:35.you wait at the till your face will be scanned for genteder and age, and
:27:36. > :27:40.hey presto different ads will appear depending on your data. What if you
:27:41. > :27:59.think it is one more invasion of your privacy and you have to stick
:28:00. > :28:04.think it is one more invasion of scanners which recognise his
:28:05. > :28:07.features. Now that technology is all but here. As our frame-by-frame
:28:08. > :28:23.homage makes clear. Now we're all about consumer
:28:24. > :28:27.technology on this programme, goodness knows, and yet, there are
:28:28. > :28:32.grounds for scepticism, the idea that this scanner could look into my
:28:33. > :28:40.eyes and say anything conclusive at all, based on my weekly shop of Pot
:28:41. > :28:49.Noodles and alco-pop, it is a bit far fetched. But is it though. These
:28:50. > :28:51.shoppers are profiled, divided by gender and into age groups. One
:28:52. > :29:11.major gender and into age groups. One
:29:12. > :29:14.information you put out there. Advertisers will want to use that.
:29:15. > :29:20.It is out there for them to play with. In France they are already
:29:21. > :29:26.exploiting the information we put out there. Monitors read your store
:29:27. > :29:31.loyalty cards, this triggers localised advertising, personalised
:29:32. > :29:36.messages, instantly sent to hoardings as you pass them. It is
:29:37. > :29:45.only a trial so far. Does that sound irritating to you, even the people
:29:46. > :29:48.behind it think so. Maybe you buy milk and we can identify if you need
:29:49. > :29:51.milk. It is really annoying, but it is the
:29:52. > :30:20.future, and you can't miss this. It is really annoying, but it is the
:30:21. > :30:24.consumers want and will put up with. More people said they would stop
:30:25. > :30:27.transacting or doing business with a company if they thought it was
:30:28. > :30:30.harvesting their data without their permission and selling it on to
:30:31. > :30:35.other third parties. They put that ahead of things like environmental
:30:36. > :30:39.damage or huge fat cat salaries. So it cull is something that makes
:30:40. > :30:45.people very anxious. Again I think it is because this sort of sense of
:30:46. > :30:57.things being done behind my back, with my information that really
:30:58. > :31:02.upsets people. Any other objections? Form an orderly queue. It is when we
:31:03. > :31:07.think personal relationships turn into state power relationships. We
:31:08. > :31:10.have a really serious problem. It has already happened in a number of
:31:11. > :31:29.countries with mobile data. The Government in this
:31:30. > :31:32.retailers and others rely on us not noticing or shrugging and looking
:31:33. > :31:42.the other way. In the supermarket of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
:31:43. > :31:51.I'm joined now by the man behind Tesco Crabcard, he runs -- Tesco
:31:52. > :31:56.Clubcard, he runs a company that brings better information to
:31:57. > :32:00.advertisers. We will come on to social media in a little while.
:32:01. > :32:04.Let's deal with the forecourt issue. It is simply on the question of one
:32:05. > :32:10.of three age brackets and gender, what is the problem? It teaters on
:32:11. > :32:15.the brink of unethical. The issue is do you want this to happen to you?
:32:16. > :32:20.And have you given your permission for that to happen to you? Your
:32:21. > :32:39.personal image is personal information, it is being
:32:40. > :32:43.personal image is personal think it would be possible, if I'm
:32:44. > :32:47.approaching the till in Tescos and I don't want that to happen I have the
:32:48. > :32:50.right to say please switch that off? Yes, ideally you would have the
:32:51. > :32:58.right to say that in advance. Before you even get there? How will it
:32:59. > :33:01.actually work? We had in-store television five years ago.
:33:02. > :33:10.Interestingly customers didn't like it and we turned it off. You don't
:33:11. > :33:14.work for Tesco's now? No. I think Anna is right it is about consent.
:33:15. > :33:17.You don't approve of this? I'm not saying that, I don't think it has
:33:18. > :33:21.been thought through fully in terms of actually thinking what customers
:33:22. > :33:25.want rather than what you can do. Technology enables so many things to
:33:26. > :33:29.be done, just because you can do it, should you do it? The idea of
:33:30. > :33:31.targeting advertising at the petrol pump based on the make of car you
:33:32. > :33:51.turn up in, for pump based on the make of car you
:33:52. > :33:54.is not. Absolutely not. You can from the face you give your credit card
:33:55. > :34:00.to that till, you have a number plate in the car, you can profile
:34:01. > :34:03.that person exactly. Three pieces of information can tell a lot about
:34:04. > :34:08.that person. And it is not acceptable and it is completely out
:34:09. > :34:15.of proportion. Let's look at on-line now then and using social media
:34:16. > :34:19.better to tailor your interest in certain goods. This is very much
:34:20. > :34:23.Clive's territory. Do you approve of that? Well personally I don't
:34:24. > :34:29.approve of that. I think if people say yes, you can do that to me,
:34:30. > :34:36.that's fine. The problem is that profiling is a default option.
:34:37. > :34:41.People are profiled unless they opt out. They usually don't. It is
:34:42. > :34:42.normal behaviour. You use Twitter data, would people
:34:43. > :35:01.normal behaviour. You use Twitter is your choice. You bare your soul,
:35:02. > :35:04.you have to be prepared to give up everything? You don't have to give
:35:05. > :35:08.up everything at all. You can choose if you wish to not opt in, you can
:35:09. > :35:12.choose if you want to, it is a consent-based model. I think it is
:35:13. > :35:16.about the consumer having control. It always has been. They are the
:35:17. > :35:21.successful businesses. The problem is we don't have control, there is a
:35:22. > :35:26.lot of evidence that we do not have it. People are getting profiled
:35:27. > :35:32.without knowing what's happening to them. They are at the moment, of
:35:33. > :35:39.course? How do you, you presumably do have a mobile phone. I do. Your
:35:40. > :35:43.phone company knows where you are at any moment in time, will that be the
:35:44. > :35:50.find of information to second guess what you are going to do and what
:35:51. > :35:51.you might buy next? Geolocation data is very sensitive data. The
:35:52. > :36:12.companies that have not selling your perm data, they are
:36:13. > :36:18.selling aggregate statistics to help the retailers understand the foot
:36:19. > :36:21.fall. In ten years time you will identify somebody, the Iris and the
:36:22. > :36:27.passport, identifying someone on the street with a camera? You could do
:36:28. > :36:32.that today, and the question is are you responsible. That is the asset
:36:33. > :36:36.test. I think the legislation we have is far behind what technology
:36:37. > :36:42.can do. Thank you very much indeed. The leading British scientist, was
:36:43. > :36:47.ejected from his job as chairman of the Government's advisory council on
:36:48. > :36:51.the Ms. Use of drugs four years ago has been warned an international
:36:52. > :37:01.prize for standing up for science. It is given by nature -- Nature
:37:02. > :37:19.Magazine, for standing up in the face of hostility and
:37:20. > :37:23.Magazine, for standing up in the gained the prize, this is our
:37:24. > :37:28.science editor first. When science meets politics it can be a classic
:37:29. > :37:32.clash of culture, how the Government deals with legal highs has been one
:37:33. > :37:39.such flash point since the summer. When the Government announced a ban
:37:40. > :37:42.on the herbal stimulate Cat, against scientific advice.
:37:43. > :37:47.In the past politicians have traditionally turned to science most
:37:48. > :37:53.especially in times of war. Though it was Winston Churchill who
:37:54. > :37:57.famously said scientific advisers should be on tap not on top. Many
:37:58. > :38:02.scientists believe that going along with that view would be too meek and
:38:03. > :38:05.science advice is more than setting out the spectrum of views, but
:38:06. > :38:11.making sure that policy is based on the best balance of evidence. Not
:38:12. > :38:30.just in war but across a whole range of pressing and
:38:31. > :38:34.to climate change. Professor David Nutt was made chairman of the
:38:35. > :38:42.advisory council on the misuse of drugs, he had a number of run-ins
:38:43. > :38:47.with politicians, and in 2009 he compared using ecstacy with horse
:38:48. > :38:49.riding, he was then sacked by the Home Secretary Alan Johnson, after
:38:50. > :38:57.saying Government classification of cannabis was at odds with scientific
:38:58. > :39:01.measures of actual harm. Professor Colin Blakemore was one of the
:39:02. > :39:06.judges for today's award and has worked with Professor Nutt in the
:39:07. > :39:10.past. He said the whole fair had lasting impact, a set of principles
:39:11. > :39:14.on the way scientific advice should be troted. Science underpins
:39:15. > :39:17.everything we do, increasingly so. Everything from what you mobile
:39:18. > :39:21.phone you choose to whether we are going to tackle global warming.
:39:22. > :39:41.Increasingly the going to tackle global warming.
:39:42. > :39:45.important is that the clarity of high-quality scientific advice is
:39:46. > :39:53.available to everybody. This woman advising Alan Johnson at
:39:54. > :39:59.the Home Office at the time of the David Nutt row. He thinks Churchill
:40:00. > :40:02.got it right? Scientists have a high regard for themselves and those on
:40:03. > :40:05.Government committees have higher regard for themselves. Our
:40:06. > :40:08.experience under the last Labour Government was give the advice by
:40:09. > :40:12.all means, but don't think because you have given the advice that
:40:13. > :40:15.Government has to accept it. And if Government doesn't accept it for
:40:16. > :40:19.whatever reason, that doesn't mean it is a challenge to your authority.
:40:20. > :40:23.It doesn't mean you are undermined, all it means is thanks for what you
:40:24. > :40:27.have advised but in this case no thanks. But many Government advisers
:40:28. > :40:31.feel their first duty is to speak out to the tax-payers whose cash
:40:32. > :40:49.often funds scientific research, not the politician
:40:50. > :40:51.often funds scientific research, not you sacked? I do, since then I have
:40:52. > :40:56.realised there is greater problems as a result of some of the failure
:40:57. > :40:59.to be logical about drugs. Particularly it has been clear in
:41:00. > :41:03.the last few years how medical research is impeded by the drug
:41:04. > :41:07.laws. The laws we put in place to stop people using drugs are stopping
:41:08. > :41:10.scientists using drugs and developing new treatments. Would you
:41:11. > :41:18.say it in the same way as you said in 2009 or would you be judicious.
:41:19. > :41:25.We haven't moved on, I think I would be more forthright. We have mored
:41:26. > :41:29.backwards -- moved backwards. Do you accept that there has to be a
:41:30. > :41:33.calibration by politics in terms of what you say, they have to take into
:41:34. > :41:40.t Times of drug abuse and the politics essentially? I would say if
:41:41. > :41:59.you have good scientific evidence and a policy is not working
:42:00. > :42:03.you have good scientific evidence harmful than LSD, would you
:42:04. > :42:07.decriminalise it? I'm not about that, it is about a more equal
:42:08. > :42:13.playing field to the drugs we suffer from, alcohol and tobacco. You
:42:14. > :42:18.wouldn't decriminalise Dan business? I certainly would. What about
:42:19. > :42:24.ecstacy? Any drugs less harmful than alcohol should be decriminalised. So
:42:25. > :42:29.LSD? I would decriminalise it, as well. I don't think that
:42:30. > :42:36.criminalising people using drugs is any use at all. As we have seen from
:42:37. > :42:41.other countries where we have seen benefits decriminalisation. The
:42:42. > :42:49.herbal CAT is a controversial one? The banning of Cat is a ridiculous
:42:50. > :42:51.one. It does terrible damage? It does no damage. We only banned it
:42:52. > :43:09.because the Americans have does no damage. We only banned it
:43:10. > :43:15.pricing, the way that they treat alcohol, what has gone wrong? They
:43:16. > :43:18.just basically lost courage at the last minute. They started off making
:43:19. > :43:22.the right statement, minimum pricing, it will work and reduce
:43:23. > :43:27.harms to particularly heavy users and then probably due to pressure
:43:28. > :43:31.from the drinks industry they backed off. Do you think that will have
:43:32. > :43:35.long-term damage? Of course it will, alcohol is the leading cause of
:43:36. > :43:41.death in men in this country between t ages of 16-54, minimum pricing
:43:42. > :43:45.would have reduced deaths by 25%. Let's talk about cigarettes,
:43:46. > :43:51.originally there was plan to clear all branding, to clear all
:43:52. > :43:55.advertising from packets, that has now changed? That would have worked
:43:56. > :44:00.and the Australian experience says that is working you take away the
:44:01. > :44:01.glamour of the cigarette. Here are the two things you think are big
:44:02. > :44:21.killers, the two things you think are big
:44:22. > :44:26.are looking at are simplistic ways of appealing to the population and
:44:27. > :44:31.voters. Voters know they are wrong. If the voters knew they were wrong
:44:32. > :44:36.the voters would do the right things themselves they would take less
:44:37. > :44:42.alcohol and smoke fewer cigarettes? They are doing that to some
:44:43. > :44:47.excellent. Let's be clear, every taxpayer pays ?1,000 in tax every
:44:48. > :44:50.year simply to allow us service the level of drinking through health
:44:51. > :44:53.services and policing. There is an enormous tax burden on people
:44:54. > :44:57.because we don't have minimum pricing. The on the other hand
:44:58. > :45:02.people would say free will and make up your on mind, and what you are
:45:03. > :45:05.saying is patronising for people who should be able to decide for
:45:06. > :45:10.themselves? The whole thing about drinking alcohol is to take away
:45:11. > :45:29.your self-control. That is not the only reason? It is one of the
:45:30. > :45:34.the scientists and the Government not getting the message across, you
:45:35. > :45:38.are out of Government now, and the scientists in Government are they
:45:39. > :45:42.supine? I think that Government scientists are in a difficult
:45:43. > :45:48.position, because mostly they don't get listened to. Are they being
:45:49. > :45:53.supine or risk their jobs? I don't see anyone being as forceful as I
:45:54. > :46:02.was. Thanks all for tonight, Emily is here tomorrow. We leave you with
:46:03. > :46:07.a Berlin singing Bronski Boy when a passer-by felt he could do it
:46:08. > :46:14.better. # Turn away
:46:15. > :46:19.# Run away. # Run away
:46:20. > :46:21.# Turn away # Run away
:46:22. > :46:41.# Turn # Run away
:46:42. > :46:43.# Crying to