:00:08. > :00:13.The war on drugs is being lost, says the former UN Secretary-General.
:00:14. > :00:25.Tonight we go to Peru, the world's cocaine factory to find out why. Sue
:00:26. > :00:29.Lloyd Roberts joins the search and destroy team looking for factories.
:00:30. > :00:35.It is noisy, dramatic but is it effective. For every one air strip
:00:36. > :00:39.destroyed by the Peruvian police, there is a dozen more in the I can't
:00:40. > :00:43.remember remaining operational. Despite the seizure, still more
:00:44. > :00:47.cocaine is getting through the airports and on to our streets. They
:00:48. > :00:51.let the small fish get caught on purpose to distract the officials,
:00:52. > :00:59.so the guy that has a large amount of drugs he gets through. We hear
:01:00. > :01:04.from the Colombian presidential candidate held for six years in the
:01:05. > :01:07.jungle. Call it the battle of Battersea, David Cameron launched
:01:08. > :01:11.his election battle Battersea, David Cameron launched
:01:12. > :01:15.Miliband launched his. We will ask if his cost of living strategy can
:01:16. > :01:21.put him in Downing Street. We say fightback! 400 years on, Parliament
:01:22. > :01:26.Square is full of a different kind of insurgent, tonight we debate the
:01:27. > :01:32.rights and wrongs of fat cat pay. And India sends a probe to Mars at a
:01:33. > :01:43.fraction of the price that America has. Is the race to the red planet
:01:44. > :01:47.getting cheaper? Hello, good evening, is it time to end the war
:01:48. > :01:49.on drugs, is it time in other words to admit the whole fight against the
:01:50. > :01:54.drug underworld is simply not working to do something else. Kofi
:01:55. > :01:57.Annan thinks so. The former UN Secretary-General has recommended
:01:58. > :02:02.that the criminalisation of drug use should be replaced by a public
:02:03. > :02:06.health approach. He's no 70s love child. Tonight we head to Peru, a
:02:07. > :02:11.country with the dubious honour of being the world's largest producer
:02:12. > :02:16.of the coca leaf, the ingredient used in cocaine. Few will forget the
:02:17. > :02:19.spectacle last summer of two women, one British, pleading guilty to drug
:02:20. > :02:23.smuggling out of Peru. The Government there has adopted a
:02:24. > :02:31.radical approach to combat the drugs war. Is it high time for change?
:02:32. > :02:37.Midnight, Lima Airport and another European is found attempting to
:02:38. > :02:43.smuggle out cocaine. Four kilos with a street value of some half a
:02:44. > :02:48.million pounds in London. He faces up to 15 years in jail and the drug
:02:49. > :03:01.will be destroyed. But there's plenty more where it came from. 500
:03:02. > :03:07.miles north-east in the Amazon Jungle and every clearing here is
:03:08. > :03:11.devoted to the growth of the plant, producing hundreds of tonnes of
:03:12. > :03:18.cocaine for export every year. The police team arrive as part of a
:03:19. > :03:22.Government eradication programme. The plant it be harvested four times
:03:23. > :03:26.a year, and it provides welcome work and money for the locals here, where
:03:27. > :03:37.there is little else. The workers have fled by the time the team pull
:03:38. > :03:44.the roots out from the rich soil. So why the guns? TRANSLATION: The drug
:03:45. > :03:47.trafficking gangs are still here, they have weapons
:03:48. > :03:55.trafficking gangs are still here, attack us. This is why these men
:03:56. > :04:00.need protection. They move on to makeshift laboratories hidden in the
:04:01. > :04:08.thick jungle. Equipped with all the ingredients for cocaine production.
:04:09. > :04:14.Dry leaves crushed with the foot to make a paste. Then acid to produce
:04:15. > :04:20.the powder for the European market. TRANSLATION: We went to London for a
:04:21. > :04:23.meeting with the serious crime squad to exchange information, because we
:04:24. > :04:29.believe some of the drugs from Peru are coming to the UK. There were
:04:30. > :04:33.apparently 15 locals working in dangerous and uncomfortable
:04:34. > :04:48.conditions. They earn more here than they would get from any other crop.
:04:49. > :04:53.But they won't be coming back. They then target the illegal air strip
:04:54. > :04:59.which they blow up to prevent light aircraft from collecting the cocaine
:05:00. > :05:09.at night. To fly to Bolivia, Brazil or Paraguy, from where it goes on to
:05:10. > :05:13.Europe. It is noisy, it is dram Maastricht
:05:14. > :05:19.Treaty but is it effective? For every one Narco Air strip, as they
:05:20. > :05:24.call it here, destroyed by the Pleurx there are a dozen more in the
:05:25. > :05:26.area which remain operational. Which is just one reason why critics say
:05:27. > :05:30.that tackling the problem of is just one reason why critics say
:05:31. > :05:37.in Peru, like a military operation, is not working. This is not a
:05:38. > :05:43.military problem, and one of the few things that we have learned in the
:05:44. > :05:50.last 30 years that this can't be understood as a war. This man was
:05:51. > :05:55.fired from the country's top drugs job, because he claims they don't
:05:56. > :06:02.want to hear what he has to say. We need to talk in economic, social
:06:03. > :06:08.terms. For those who had been excluded the drug business is the
:06:09. > :06:17.way of being part of the globalised economy in the world. Certainly the
:06:18. > :06:19.arrival of the international drug gangs has boosted the economy, near
:06:20. > :06:23.the growing areas where towns gangs has boosted the economy, near
:06:24. > :06:37.now filled with clubs and the girls say business is good. The workers --
:06:38. > :06:42.TRANSLATION: The workers treat us well, they invite us to dinner.
:06:43. > :06:51.TRANSLATION: The police don't pay us as match. -- much. Growers and
:06:52. > :06:55.hookers rely on the cocaine that needs to go out of the country to
:06:56. > :07:02.bring money back in. There are plenty of drug mules willing to
:07:03. > :07:09.oblige. A flight from the growing areas in the north arrives in the
:07:10. > :07:13.capital, Lima. Back in the airport terminal the 25-year-old Spaniard
:07:14. > :07:18.disembarks and checks in again for a flight to Madrid. But the dogs are
:07:19. > :07:26.on patrol tonight and detect narcotics in his case. The cocaine
:07:27. > :07:32.has been packed by professionals who recruited him in Amsterdam, and paid
:07:33. > :07:37.him 10,000 euros to carry the four kilos that will sell for 50 times
:07:38. > :07:44.that amount in Spain. It was a moment of madness he tells me and he
:07:45. > :07:57.now faces years in jail. But even the police here admit that 90% of
:07:58. > :08:02.the mules get through. Gavin from South Africa who was caught with
:08:03. > :08:06.three kilos has served his prison term, but can't leave
:08:07. > :08:12.three kilos has served his prison paying a fine, he has been living
:08:13. > :08:16.rough on the beach. Thinking back to his arrest he believes he was set
:08:17. > :08:20.up. I was a small fish, they were waiting for me, I know this from
:08:21. > :08:24.many people who have been caught for narcotics traffics. They let the
:08:25. > :08:29.small fish get caught on purpose to distract the officials so that the
:08:30. > :08:34.guy that has a large amount of drugs, gets through. It is all
:08:35. > :08:39.inside jobs. They have got people in the police, they have got people at
:08:40. > :08:49.the airports, they have got people in organised crime. All of them are
:08:50. > :08:54.on the payroll. Visiting day at the prisons which are filled with drug
:08:55. > :08:58.users and mules, the small fish. If a drug baron gets put in here, he
:08:59. > :09:04.can usually buy an official pardon to get out quickly. Conditions are
:09:05. > :09:12.tough, especially for foreigners who don't have family to bring them
:09:13. > :09:17.food. I was forced to take these bags in my luggage. Michaella
:09:18. > :09:22.McCollum and Melissa Reid, both from the UK, who were recently arrested
:09:23. > :09:27.at Lima airport for trying to smuggle 11 kilos of cocaine to Spain
:09:28. > :09:36.are in one of the worst prisons according to Nicole, who served her
:09:37. > :09:41.term in three. It is very cramped. You have not air to breathe there
:09:42. > :09:47.really. You feel like a rat in a cage. It is very hard for these
:09:48. > :09:51.girls. After their latest appearance in court their lawyers said they
:09:52. > :09:56.might be offered a reduced term if they give the police information.
:09:57. > :10:02.Nicole advises them not to. This is a very, very dangerous business. He
:10:03. > :10:10.can kill me in the jail. So I never say the names, I never say anything,
:10:11. > :10:14.I say it is my fault, my things. It is very dangerous if you say the
:10:15. > :10:21.name. And your sentence doesn't go less when you say something, it is a
:10:22. > :10:26.lie. Nicole also can't get home to Germany, and lives in a convanity
:10:27. > :10:30.where the nuns are looking after increasing numbers of former
:10:31. > :10:44.prisoners caught trying to get drugs to Europe. The biggest market for
:10:45. > :10:48.Peruvian cocaine. Back in the Amazon Basin, Matilda Ramirez is a small
:10:49. > :10:54.farmer, who was forced to give up growing the drug by the eradication
:10:55. > :10:59.programme. TRANSLATION: Yes cocaine is profitable, it paid enough money
:11:00. > :11:03.for all my needs. Now I grow cocoa and bananas, and it is not enough to
:11:04. > :11:11.feed my family, let alone send them to school. Many farmers move on to
:11:12. > :11:17.grow coca in areas the eradicators haven't yet reached. Drug experts
:11:18. > :11:26.say that cocaine production can only be tackled by helping the small
:11:27. > :11:32.farmer. I think that we should think on paying directly to them for every
:11:33. > :11:43.single gram of cocaine that is not produced by them. A kind of health
:11:44. > :11:47.preventive tax that should be paid by European countries and that will
:11:48. > :11:52.significantly improve the livelihoods of thousands of persons
:11:53. > :12:01.that are now involved in this economy.
:12:02. > :12:06.But the choppers were in action again today. The eradication
:12:07. > :12:12.programme in Peru gets four-times as much money as that given to farmers
:12:13. > :12:15.to develop alternative crops. A senior police officer here admitted
:12:16. > :12:24.that trying to stop cocaine production this way is like trying
:12:25. > :12:29.to catch the wind. With me now is David Raynes from the international
:12:30. > :12:33.task force on strategic drug policy, part of the National Drug Prevention
:12:34. > :12:38.Alliance as well. And from Oxford is the former Colombian presidential
:12:39. > :12:44.candidate, Ingrid Betancourt, kidnapped and imprisoned for six
:12:45. > :12:49.yeast by the FARC, known for their drugs trade. It is like trying to
:12:50. > :12:54.catch the wind, expensive and hopeless? We are seeing that drugs
:12:55. > :13:02.are socialally corrosive in supply countries and consuming countries as
:13:03. > :13:06.well. Both are affected equally. I know you will talk about what Kofi
:13:07. > :13:10.Annan said that we have to change and adopt a public health approach.
:13:11. > :13:14.That what we normally mean when we hear that language is talking about
:13:15. > :13:19.legalisation. The trouble with that is poor countries do worse out of it
:13:20. > :13:24.than rich countries. Even now the poor people of the favelas in South
:13:25. > :13:29.America and the poor people of Afghanistan using cocaine and crack
:13:30. > :13:34.cocaine, they have no Priory Clinics. Without going down the line
:13:35. > :13:39.of legalisation do you believe the war on drugs, the phrase coined 30
:13:40. > :13:44.years ago? Tifs coined by the Washington Post in 1929, it was
:13:45. > :13:48.picked up by somebody. And it is never repeat bid people on my side
:13:49. > :13:53.of the debate. I never use "war on drugs". What we are dealing with
:13:54. > :13:57.here is a situation on containment. These things are not fit for human
:13:58. > :14:00.consumption, they damage lives and we have to do our best to contain
:14:01. > :14:06.it. I'm with the people of Peru and we should do for more them. Ingrid
:14:07. > :14:08.Betancourt, your life was utterly changed by your ordeal at the hands
:14:09. > :14:12.of a military organisation of drug changed by your ordeal at the hands
:14:13. > :14:17.Lords essentially. What did that leave you believing? There is, of
:14:18. > :14:24.course, a war on drugs. We could fill it in Columbia in a very
:14:25. > :14:27.harmful way. I would say Columbia is probably the only country that has
:14:28. > :14:36.been successful in the war on drugs. The military forces in Columbia, the
:14:37. > :14:42.comloam -- Colombian police have been heroic in persevering against
:14:43. > :14:47.the drug traffickers. The issue is the Colombian success has meant what
:14:48. > :14:53.we see in Peru. It has crossed the borders. The drug traffickers don't
:14:54. > :14:57.have a nationality. If they are tracked in one country they cross
:14:58. > :15:01.the border to another country. Would your belief be for a country like
:15:02. > :15:04.Peru, I mean can you do anything within the borders now,
:15:05. > :15:11.Peru, I mean can you do anything saying no, so what would be your
:15:12. > :15:18.suggestion? Well I have no proposal. It is really a very difficult
:15:19. > :15:22.question to tackle. What we know is it is a global issue. There is no
:15:23. > :15:27.country that can deal with this issue by its own means or
:15:28. > :15:32.unilaterally. We have seen, for example, what happened in Holland
:15:33. > :15:42.with the legalisation of drugs and we had Holland converted in a hub
:15:43. > :15:47.for crimes. Tourists for drugs was one of the problems it caused. I
:15:48. > :15:57.think there is a fact the global commission on drugs policy stated
:15:58. > :16:02.very clearly in its report two years ago our policy our punitive policy
:16:03. > :16:06.against drugs is failure. We need to begin thinking how we're going to
:16:07. > :16:14.proceed from now on. Would that include a liberalisation of sorts? I
:16:15. > :16:22.don't know what the response is. You know, I think that there is a clear
:16:23. > :16:29.consensus that drugs cannot be over the counter. That it has to be of
:16:30. > :16:34.course as Kofi Annan was saying with the primacy on health issues. But we
:16:35. > :16:40.need enforcement too. The fact is that you see drugs have become a
:16:41. > :16:43.huge financial machine for other crimes. Especially for terrorism.
:16:44. > :16:50.We're talking also about sexual crimes. Especially for terrorism.
:16:51. > :16:57.slavery or organ trafficking. All sorts of crimes have been
:16:58. > :17:13.strengthened by the power of the drug traffickers. Why? Because it
:17:14. > :17:19.is, we're talking about DLO 306 billion US dollars. It is a huge
:17:20. > :17:23.amount of money. They can pay all kinds of weapons. Can I pick up on a
:17:24. > :17:31.couple of points. There is a lot of agreement. There is a lot of
:17:32. > :17:34.agreement GREEMENT. H aye what's that then GREEMENT. One of the
:17:35. > :17:37.things about drugs is we have a shared responsibility between
:17:38. > :17:40.nations not to pick up on each other. The global commission is
:17:41. > :17:42.nations not to pick up on each self-styled global commission, it
:17:43. > :17:47.has no status. What it is and what it represents is the worldwide
:17:48. > :17:50.legalisation movement. It is very heavily funded. We have to be very
:17:51. > :17:54.careful about saying anything in agreement with the global
:17:55. > :17:59.commission. What scares you so much about legalisation? I don't agree
:18:00. > :18:06.with this. The global commission are eminent Presidents and former
:18:07. > :18:13.officials that have been tackling the drug problem. We have, for
:18:14. > :18:19.example, President Gavilia, that was the one that captured, we have the
:18:20. > :18:28.President of Pakistan, Venezuela, Poland and Portugal. When you talk
:18:29. > :18:31.about a huge financing lobby, I'm always very cautious with this. When
:18:32. > :18:37.I was in Columbia, I can say it because I was in the situation. I
:18:38. > :18:42.could is see how the FARC, for example, which was, or is a huge
:18:43. > :18:51.drug cartel was against the legalisation of drugs. Why? Because
:18:52. > :18:54.it is going against the money that they are making. There is a few
:18:55. > :18:58.points there. First of all the people on the global commission, the
:18:59. > :19:03.statesmen are the figureheads, the power behind is are the money from
:19:04. > :19:05.George Sorres, he was at a conference last week promoting.
:19:06. > :19:09.These people have been there, they are not airy fairy? They are
:19:10. > :19:12.figureheads and being used. The message to South America and the
:19:13. > :19:15.south American Presidents that we can legalise it and solve all the
:19:16. > :19:20.problems. It is not correct. You can't take the criminality out of
:19:21. > :19:25.drugs supply by legalising it. In North America for instance heavily
:19:26. > :19:29.regulated prescription drugs are a huge criminal enterprise and... You
:19:30. > :19:33.would be agreeing with the drug cartels? I don't believe that the
:19:34. > :19:36.drug cartels, they will exist whether you legalise it or not. Are
:19:37. > :19:40.they going to pack up or going away, they will be in competition with any
:19:41. > :19:45.legal supply. They are already in competition with legal supply in in
:19:46. > :19:51.the UK. 20% of the UK tobacco market, smuggled, fit or both. Ed
:19:52. > :19:55.Miliband was back on his predator theme today, this time the payday
:19:56. > :19:59.lenders were his targeted beast. He called the poster child of the
:20:00. > :20:04.industry, Wonga, one of the worst symbols of the cost of living crisis
:20:05. > :20:10.and accused the industry as a whole of preying on the vulnerable. It is
:20:11. > :20:13.ground that he believes works well with the public.
:20:14. > :20:17.The Conservatives say living standards will rise as the economy
:20:18. > :20:23.recovers. But today the Secretary singled out the water firms and
:20:24. > :20:34.asked them to look closely at price rises. Are they now fighting for the
:20:35. > :20:38.same political ground? This power station too close to be Westminster
:20:39. > :20:44.to be resisted by politicians hoping to make grand statements. Come with
:20:45. > :20:51.us and we will build a better country together. As it was in the
:20:52. > :21:00.election of 2010, it was today. For the Labour leader. The last story
:21:01. > :21:06.manifesto launched back there was an invitation to join the Tory Britain.
:21:07. > :21:14.They wanted people to run their own schools and nurseries. Ed Miliband
:21:15. > :21:19.was back at Battersea Power Station to talk about different matters. He
:21:20. > :21:24.believes the election will be fought on the cost of living. They the
:21:25. > :21:28.Tories believe it will be who will run the economy best. David Cameron
:21:29. > :21:30.said I was talking about the cost of living crisis because I didn't want
:21:31. > :21:34.to talk about economic policy. We have Prime Minister who thinks we
:21:35. > :21:37.can detatch our national economic success from the success of
:21:38. > :21:42.Britain's families and businesses. He doesn't seem to realise there is
:21:43. > :21:46.no such thing as a successful economy which doesn't carry
:21:47. > :21:49.Britain's families with it. And he obviously doesn't get that the old
:21:50. > :21:56.link between growth and living standards is just broken. Very good
:21:57. > :21:58.speech. But I just want to ask you how will you win the election, have
:21:59. > :22:04.you got some plan in mind? That is how will you win the election, have
:22:05. > :22:07.good question! Part of Ed Miliband's plan today was for higher wage,
:22:08. > :22:16.under a Labour Government employers would receive a tax rebate in return
:22:17. > :22:20.for paying a worker ?7.65 an hour, the called living wage. Is it an
:22:21. > :22:24.election-winning agenda. When you ask which party is best to deal with
:22:25. > :22:26.the cost of living. They say the Labour Party is best placed. When
:22:27. > :22:29.you talk about the economy in general people say the
:22:30. > :22:33.Conservatives. And the gap between Conservatives and Labour has been
:22:34. > :22:38.growing in 2013. So what Labour will hope to do is say, yes, people may
:22:39. > :22:42.see the economy growing, but that the other people are being left
:22:43. > :22:45.behind. It is those people that feel they are being left behind, that
:22:46. > :22:49.feel their living standards are not improving. Despite an improvement in
:22:50. > :22:53.the economy. It is those people they will want to appeal to at the next
:22:54. > :22:56.election which we are pretty certain will be fought on the issue
:22:57. > :22:58.election which we are pretty certain economy. That is one pollster
:22:59. > :23:02.arguing the economy will trump the cost of living in 2015, but the
:23:03. > :23:06.Government, nonetheless, floats modest more sells of its own. Today
:23:07. > :23:12.a formal request that water companies keep their prices down? Do
:23:13. > :23:17.the Tories need to do more? Do they need to reach out to low-paid
:23:18. > :23:25.Britain? One of them did yesterday and I nouncing a new voluntary rate
:23:26. > :23:31.for the living wage. I'm free marketeer I brief in low taxation,
:23:32. > :23:37.yes, management's right to manage. I'm a classical liberal economist.
:23:38. > :23:43.Indeed I would go so far as to say that I am a Thatcherite. But I'm
:23:44. > :23:46.also, and I should say, I'm also a passionate believer in the London
:23:47. > :23:48.also, and I should say, I'm also a living wage. Do you think that the
:23:49. > :23:52.link between wages and growth has broken, because a lot of people do
:23:53. > :23:57.think that? I think it is very important when you have a city like
:23:58. > :24:04.London that is powering ahead in so many ways and which unquestionably
:24:05. > :24:09.creates such Titanic fortunes that you should be paying the people who
:24:10. > :24:15.keep the wheels of London turning you should pay decent incomes. What
:24:16. > :24:18.about the link? The London living age, I think that link needs to be
:24:19. > :24:22.maintained. Tories in Westminster are worried about the rising cost of
:24:23. > :24:25.living. They think that not all parts of the economy are feeling the
:24:26. > :24:29.recovery. But there are different views about what you do about it.
:24:30. > :24:33.You could increase the personal tax allowance, or the minimum wage. Give
:24:34. > :24:39.more people more of their own money back. Or there that group that --
:24:40. > :24:41.more people more of their own money there is that group that think you
:24:42. > :24:44.don't need to do anything. There are those who believe that wages will
:24:45. > :24:47.rise next year just before the general election. But the key thing
:24:48. > :24:52.for this group is making sure interest rates don't also creep up.
:24:53. > :24:55.So wages up, yes, just not mortgage rates.
:24:56. > :25:02.Labour promising action on the cost of living, the Government unsure how
:25:03. > :25:05.much to counter offer. The battle of Battersea Power Station.
:25:06. > :25:10.Well, this is what politics is going to be about for the next 12 months.
:25:11. > :25:14.Let's unpick how effective the arguments are. Joining me now Danny
:25:15. > :25:19.Finkelstein, Tory peer and lead writer at the Times, and John
:25:20. > :25:22.McTiernan, who used to advise Tony Blair. Ed Miliband clearly thinks
:25:23. > :25:26.this is very fertile territory for him. He's sticking with it, is he
:25:27. > :25:30.right? He has set the public conversation for every week since
:25:31. > :25:36.the Labour Party Conference. He's got on to cost of living, and it is
:25:37. > :25:39.a battle of the frames. The Tories want to talk about facts and figures
:25:40. > :25:43.and the economy and want to get Labour on to managing the economy,
:25:44. > :25:47.and Ed wants to go it is not about the economy it is what people feel
:25:48. > :25:50.and in their hearts. The polls are contradictory on it, people are
:25:51. > :25:55.saying it is a good idea but it will lead to higher prices on fuel, if
:25:56. > :25:59.you are talking about the energy freeze, for example? People to some
:26:00. > :26:05.extent feel genuine pressure but they don't believe anybody can help
:26:06. > :26:11.them. It is part of the sense that politics don't matter any more. It
:26:12. > :26:15.is appalling it and you say 80% of people support it but 52% don't
:26:16. > :26:20.believe he would do it as Prime Minister. He has a huge credibility
:26:21. > :26:25.issue there so that he will do what he says. Will what he promises
:26:26. > :26:28.deliver what he says it will, a completely other question. The worry
:26:29. > :26:31.for the Conservatives is they are putting all the weight behind the
:26:32. > :26:34.idea of the economy recovering. What if people have banked that already?
:26:35. > :26:37.And also that people don't feel it will help them. The Conservative
:26:38. > :26:41.Party has a long standing problem that people think they are for them
:26:42. > :26:45.rather than for us, that is a big problem. He's putting his finger on
:26:46. > :26:49.a problem. He's clearly running with an issue that matters to people. The
:26:50. > :26:54.only problem with it is you can't improve people's wages. The economy
:26:55. > :26:58.has to get better. His big problem at the base of it is that the
:26:59. > :27:01.argument doesn't work. He can nudge people to pay more, because I don't
:27:02. > :27:05.believe that every company sets the wage that it possibly can. So it
:27:06. > :27:10.might improve. But if you are going to give people a tax cut for a year,
:27:11. > :27:12.say, in order to improve people's wages permanently, very few
:27:13. > :27:15.companies are going to do that because they can't afford it.
:27:16. > :27:18.companies are going to do that if the Conservatives were confident
:27:19. > :27:21.on that argument they wouldn't keep offering these little things like
:27:22. > :27:26.the water companies' letter or the rail fares cap. Why do they keep on
:27:27. > :27:30.walking towards that? For the reasons I have suggested. Two
:27:31. > :27:33.reasons, one is obviously any Government of the centre right needs
:27:34. > :27:38.to do what it can to improve the amount of money in people's pockets
:27:39. > :27:41.and the competition in water. You have to do those things, and
:27:42. > :27:44.secondly because they need to politically. This is the
:27:45. > :27:47.vulnerability. People will believe that the Conservative Party can do
:27:48. > :27:50.something about the economy. But it is fatal for the Conservative Party
:27:51. > :27:53.if they don't think, if they think the money is coming in but it is
:27:54. > :27:58.going to someone else not them. People are prone to that view. You
:27:59. > :28:01.do have to do what can you, and Ed Miliband is right to press on the
:28:02. > :28:05.dilemma, he does have one himself, which is as John said, will it work
:28:06. > :28:09.and people rightly think, hang on, how can we be paid more. You can't
:28:10. > :28:15.write yourself a cheque and make yourself rich. He was keen to keep a
:28:16. > :28:20.centrist ground for the first couple of years, he seems to be embracing
:28:21. > :28:24.the Red Ed tag, is that right? He has gone further to the right on
:28:25. > :28:26.immigration than Tony Blair would have dared to. He's a very
:28:27. > :28:30.calculating politician, there is no doubt about that. I think he is a
:28:31. > :28:34.populist on welfare and immigration. He is reaching to populist elements
:28:35. > :28:38.on the right, on this issue he's reaching to populist elements of the
:28:39. > :28:43.left. He has a consistent frame in that he's trying to address his
:28:44. > :28:48.positive issues are about emotions and connections. The problem the
:28:49. > :28:51.Tories have on the one hand they are logic chopping, look at the number,
:28:52. > :28:55.embrace the pain, we had to go through the pain, they are saying
:28:56. > :28:59.there is a sweetie there. You either have to be dad and say it is for
:29:00. > :29:03.your own good or mum and say you can have the sweets. Are there more
:29:04. > :29:05.sweeties to come? I think the central Conservative argument for
:29:06. > :29:08.the election has to be Britain's on the right track, don't turn back,
:29:09. > :29:12.using that cliche. They have to say the economy still needs fixing and
:29:13. > :29:15.it isn't fixed yet. They have to suggest that by Ed Miliband jumping
:29:16. > :29:19.ahead to people as living standards. There is a contradiction, they are
:29:20. > :29:25.talking about dropping the green levies and whip ceasing the personal
:29:26. > :29:30.-- increasing the personal levy. Are they just being dangled? Neither
:29:31. > :29:33.party will be able to do an awful lot about people's living standards
:29:34. > :29:39.in the short-term. The country borrowed too much and has to reduce
:29:40. > :29:45.the deafcy. As you do that the basic maths is people won't be better off.
:29:46. > :29:48.Ed Miliband announced this thing on the living wage, I thought it was
:29:49. > :29:51.imaginative but I don't think it will help much, you can't pay people
:29:52. > :29:54.imaginative but I don't think it what they can't earn and the country
:29:55. > :29:59.can't pay out what it doesn't have. If the economy does recover is Ed
:30:00. > :30:03.Miliband doomed on the strategy in People do believe the economy is
:30:04. > :30:07.recovering, and why wouldn't they, it is recovering. It was driven into
:30:08. > :30:09.a ditch by the Tories and now it is coming out of the ditch. The
:30:10. > :30:14.difficulty for the Tory Party is simply this, when people are asked
:30:15. > :30:18.about is it getting better in your area, and they go no. There is a
:30:19. > :30:22.good reason for, that they are on static or falling wages. If the
:30:23. > :30:27.question is do you feel better off today than five years ago, people
:30:28. > :30:32.say no. We are listening, we get it absolutely, we know there is a
:30:33. > :30:39.problem. The words with which the Centrica boss waved his bonus
:30:40. > :30:45.package and white flag to signal to customers he was on side. A
:30:46. > :30:49.foregoing of a bonus in every sector has been a symbol. What will it
:30:50. > :30:53.change, bills won't come down and bankers won't get less, is it a
:30:54. > :30:59.vague nod to public accountability, or the slippery path to mob rule. We
:31:00. > :31:03.report from the boardroom now. When a big corporate boss turns down his
:31:04. > :31:08.million-pound bonus, what is he doing? Is it an act of contrition, a
:31:09. > :31:13.recognition that executive pay is just too high, even in times like
:31:14. > :31:18.these, indecent? Or is he appeasing the gods of public opinion to hold
:31:19. > :31:22.them at bay. Opening a valve to let the steam out of popular outrage,
:31:23. > :31:37.biceping a fleeting moment of humiliation. Public fury has put
:31:38. > :31:42.bankers, BBC executives and MPs fiddling expenses into the 21st
:31:43. > :31:49.century equivalent of the stocks. We have vented our fury, what good does
:31:50. > :31:51.it do. Aren't these industry bosses courting public approval? I don't
:31:52. > :31:56.really see it, our style is much more cool and forensic. We leave to
:31:57. > :32:04.other committees to have their own style, if that involves pill
:32:05. > :32:07.lorrying people -- pillorying people that is it. So many thoughts and
:32:08. > :32:10.ideas are driven by Twitter, there is this fantastic incentive and
:32:11. > :32:14.politicians are not immune to that to pile in denouncing something
:32:15. > :32:18.where often people don't know the facts. Does it change anything. Big
:32:19. > :32:22.salaries and even bigger bonuses go on. And why not if they reward real
:32:23. > :32:25.success. One telecoms boss told Radio 4 today
:32:26. > :32:29.that the ?3 million she earned last One telecoms boss told Radio 4 today
:32:30. > :32:32.year was justified. I think one of the great challenges of Britain, and
:32:33. > :32:36.I love this country, is that we're really good at slagging off success.
:32:37. > :32:40.And if we want to have a growing economy we want to have thriving
:32:41. > :32:43.successful growing businesses. And people who aspire to lead them.
:32:44. > :32:46.Because they do well as a result. I don't think there is anything wrong
:32:47. > :32:49.with that, provided there is complete transparency and your
:32:50. > :32:53.customers, shareholders and colleagues get to see. The former
:32:54. > :32:58.BBC executive who got a pay-off last year worth nearly a million pounds
:32:59. > :33:02.spoke on Radio 5 live today, no ritual sacrifice from him to placate
:33:03. > :33:07.the public mood. Those terms given to me were approved by the
:33:08. > :33:10.appropriate body, the BBC's remuneration committee of
:33:11. > :33:13.independent non-executive directors, I wasn't there and took no part in
:33:14. > :33:17.it, I was given what I was given. I lost my job, given what I was given
:33:18. > :33:23.and agreed to do what the BBC wanted. In the City of London, what
:33:24. > :33:27.has changed. The bonus system that awarded short-term profits still
:33:28. > :33:31.function, there is no overhaul of governance. The former chief
:33:32. > :33:35.executive of RBS, Fred Goodwin, became a totemic figure as the plan
:33:36. > :33:41.who helped plunge us all into recession and mountainous public
:33:42. > :33:46.debt. Into the pillory went Fred Goodwin, striped of his knighthood,
:33:47. > :33:49.public opinion wanted him striped of his six-figure pension too, but
:33:50. > :33:54.public opinion is not the law. And under the law he was obliged to hold
:33:55. > :33:58.his employers to the contract they agreed with him. In a democracy the
:33:59. > :34:02.rule of law is what stands between all of us, Fred Goodwin included,
:34:03. > :34:07.and the arbitary exercise of power. Where would the justice be in that.
:34:08. > :34:12.Public grievance with executive pay and bonuses in the UK is part of
:34:13. > :34:18.something global. This summer protesters took to the streets of
:34:19. > :34:22.tarok to op -- Turkey to oppose the redevelopment of an Istanbul park.
:34:23. > :34:27.It wasn't about the park, it was about a disaffected population that
:34:28. > :34:32.had come to believe its power elites were out-of-touch with and
:34:33. > :34:36.unaccountable to ordinary citizens. Here the electoral rise of UKIP is
:34:37. > :34:42.not a passing phase, it is an expression in part of a growing
:34:43. > :34:48.public frustration with a sense of powerless. Over the last decades
:34:49. > :34:52.national Governments have ceded a lot of power to the global market
:34:53. > :34:56.place. People can sack MPs by refusing to re-elect them. How they
:34:57. > :35:01.can hold to account global capitalism, in a world increasingly
:35:02. > :35:06.without national frontiers. This offshore world that has emerged and
:35:07. > :35:09.the powerlessness it renders to national communities is hugely
:35:10. > :35:17.overstated. We can, if we choose, make Google pay tax. We can if we
:35:18. > :35:22.choose say these are the terms for a British bank doing business in these
:35:23. > :35:25.islands. We can if we choose say if you want to sell electricity, gas
:35:26. > :35:29.and water there are ownership obligation that is come with that
:35:30. > :35:36.right. I think we have -- obligations that come with that
:35:37. > :35:40.right. I think we have been far too feeble. But public opinion we
:35:41. > :35:45.demands the stockades. And is it ever byesself really effective. --
:35:46. > :35:50.by itself really effective. How to how old to account global
:35:51. > :35:55.capitalism. November 5th has long been the place for insurgents
:35:56. > :35:58.against capitalism. Here are the masked demonstrators campaigning
:35:59. > :36:04.against amongst other things big payouts. The only thing that got
:36:05. > :36:09.hung, drawn and quartered was Sam Laidlaw's bonus. With us to discuss
:36:10. > :36:14.it is Nicola Horlick, and Deborah Hargreaves, director of the High Pay
:36:15. > :36:19.Centre set to reduce high pay. Do you believe anything is achieved by
:36:20. > :36:27.the high-profile media scalpings, offering up the totemic bonus? It is
:36:28. > :36:30.a guessture, but we need to put something more systemic in place. To
:36:31. > :36:34.have some structures in place that stop these huge excessive payouts to
:36:35. > :36:37.executives. Interestingly on Sam Laidlaw's bow New York when you
:36:38. > :36:43.think that one of the measures for which he achieves that bonus is
:36:44. > :36:49.customer trust, you wonder if he would have been due a bonus at all
:36:50. > :37:01.with price rises. That is neb blues of course, can you -- neb butless --
:37:02. > :37:04.nebules, or can you ever justify a huge bonus for a executive of the
:37:05. > :37:07.company? I don't think so, the shareholders own the company and
:37:08. > :37:12.they should say it is not acceptable. For some reason they
:37:13. > :37:16.haven't said that. Do you think every energy boss should be doing
:37:17. > :37:20.the same thing, would you go on the big six? It is not just energy but
:37:21. > :37:25.large public companies. There is a marked difference between somebody
:37:26. > :37:29.building a business, entrepenurally, a lot of sacrifices are made when
:37:30. > :37:34.you set up a business. When you build a business and succeed and
:37:35. > :37:37.sell it or part of it and become wealthy, that is great. That is
:37:38. > :37:43.fantastic. But if you are just walking into a very large job with
:37:44. > :37:46.this huge bonus and really your efforts aren't going to make a
:37:47. > :37:52.difference to the way the business is run. The gap now between the
:37:53. > :37:55.average pay and the boss is so huge Deborah has the statistics. You are
:37:56. > :37:59.saying you don't trust shareholders to be making the right decisions? I
:38:00. > :38:03.think it is strange they think it is OK to hand out millions of pounds to
:38:04. > :38:08.these people. I don't know why they think it is OK. You don't worry that
:38:09. > :38:13.is the new status quo, that people won't want to take on these big
:38:14. > :38:19.jobs. Look at Stephen Hester, was he right to forego bonuses? He was in a
:38:20. > :38:24.slightly divan position, because -- different position, because we, in
:38:25. > :38:29.effect, the tax-payers ended up own the company. I'm talking about
:38:30. > :38:36.companies on the stock market, these are not entrepenural businesses, but
:38:37. > :38:40.people are walking into the jobs to be paid millions of pounds because
:38:41. > :38:43.they have that title. We mustn't forget these people are not the only
:38:44. > :38:48.people creating profits in the company. It depends on the whole of
:38:49. > :38:52.the work force, and yet work force wages have been held down for years,
:38:53. > :38:56.no-one has had an above inflation pay rise in the general work force,
:38:57. > :39:03.yet the bosses have seen their pay go up by 7-10% a year for the past
:39:04. > :39:07.10%. That is an average of ?4. 5 million. You would be prepared as a
:39:08. > :39:13.leading figure in the City to stand up and say the gap is too big, the
:39:14. > :39:16.wage disparity is too big, bankers shouldn't be paid that, George
:39:17. > :39:21.Osborne shouldn't be fighting the corner for bonuses in Brussels now
:39:22. > :39:24.is that right? I do feel very strongly that is the case. I on
:39:25. > :39:27.is that right? I do feel very day-to-day basis raise money for
:39:28. > :39:30.entrepeneurs to develop their business. I have moved away from
:39:31. > :39:34.managing large pension funds. That is what I do now. I think it is, I
:39:35. > :39:37.sort of looked at what these people have to go through to establish
:39:38. > :39:41.their businesses. A lot of people these days can't get money from
:39:42. > :39:44.bank. They are borrowing money on credit cards to set up their
:39:45. > :39:49.companies, they are mortgaging their houses. How do you feel about that.
:39:50. > :39:51.Presumably Deborah you would welcome Government intervention? I think we
:39:52. > :39:56.need to have structures in place that try to restrain pay. Therefore
:39:57. > :40:01.we have said we want to see workers for example voted on to boards, or
:40:02. > :40:04.remuneration committees. To try to introduce a little bit of common
:40:05. > :40:08.sense-thinking into some of those deliberations on pay. And also you
:40:09. > :40:15.have got to look at the pay ratio, we have now got 160-times average
:40:16. > :40:20.CEO pay to average pay across the work force. We could just cap them,
:40:21. > :40:24.we could cap salaries? That is where I would draw the line. I don't think
:40:25. > :40:26.Governments should intervene, it is shareholders who own companies and
:40:27. > :40:30.shareholders need to take a stand. It is not for Governments to get
:40:31. > :40:35.involved in what people are paid. What about a systemic change, what
:40:36. > :40:39.about an actual cap or regulation that is in place? But we're seeing
:40:40. > :40:43.democracy at work, part of it is us having this discussion now. You
:40:44. > :40:47.don't mind what we might loosely call mob rule, and people deciding
:40:48. > :40:50.even if a contract has been drawn up under the rule of law and
:40:51. > :40:54.contractual law, if that gets torn up and thrown out the window?
:40:55. > :40:57.Unfortunate low you can't do that. Because it is -- unfortunately you
:40:58. > :41:01.can't do that, it is a contract. When people are up in arms and say
:41:02. > :41:05.it is terrible this person has had payout. If there is a contract in
:41:06. > :41:09.place that is the way it is. I think there is discretion over contracts.
:41:10. > :41:17.For next time. Thank you. It seems incredible that a space project that
:41:18. > :41:23.apparently combat under way 15 -- got underit a15 months ago launched
:41:24. > :41:28.a spacecraft to Mars. India will reach the red planet for a fraction
:41:29. > :41:31.of the American mission. Is this the beginning of the democratisation of
:41:32. > :41:35.the space industry. Will any country soon have the conquest of space in
:41:36. > :41:48.its reach. Or will it remain the preserve of richer nations? In its
:41:49. > :41:52.early decades the exploration of space brought us wonder. And a new
:41:53. > :41:58.view of our planet. And the conquest of space came to epitomise
:41:59. > :42:01.earth-bound feuds. The space race is too benign a label. This
:42:02. > :42:10.earth-bound feuds. The space race is bitter battle between two Cold War
:42:11. > :42:15.superpowers. But the time has gone when only the US and Russia could
:42:16. > :42:22.afford the gar Ganttian cost of being a space-faring nation. I had
:42:23. > :42:30.seen the moon landing as a young boy. And I always thought one day
:42:31. > :42:34.I'm going to do that. Two models are emerging, cheaper, faster, smarter
:42:35. > :42:42.commercial missions. The spirit behind Richard Branson's quest to
:42:43. > :42:46.sell tickets for space. And aspiring, slimmed down, state
:42:47. > :42:57.missions. Such as Iran's bizarre claims to have sent a monkey into
:42:58. > :43:02.space earlier this year. You Live off. Lift off normal. India's
:43:03. > :43:09.successful launch today sent a powerful message about its place in
:43:10. > :43:13.the world and its aspirations. In striving to do space exploration as
:43:14. > :43:19.America did in the 1960s, it can be a driver to making your society
:43:20. > :43:27.smarter. So America thought itself smarter by placing human footprints
:43:28. > :43:32.on the moon. In trying to reach Martian orbit the Indian generation
:43:33. > :43:37.inspired by the moves the Government are making are ThinkBroadbanding
:43:38. > :43:41.themselves smarter too. For -- Are thinking themselves smarter too.
:43:42. > :43:43.Today's launch brings inspiration for scientists and engineers
:43:44. > :43:49.Today's launch brings inspiration technological spark for the economy.
:43:50. > :43:54.For many outside observers the astonishing thing is they were able
:43:55. > :43:59.to do so cheaply? It was audacious that they attempted to do something
:44:00. > :44:02.that previously only two or three nations have had the capablities to
:44:03. > :44:07.do. And suddenly come up with a programme that seems to be
:44:08. > :44:12.succeeding so far for this very, very comparatively small amount of
:44:13. > :44:19.money. In theory India and China are minnows in the world of space
:44:20. > :44:31.endeavour. Both spend about $1. 3 billion a year, compared to NASA's
:44:32. > :44:38.$17 billion. India's mission cost $70 million, a lot less than the
:44:39. > :44:45.NASA project. The success of India and China with limited budgets has
:44:46. > :44:50.made getting into space tempting for new competitors, such as South
:44:51. > :44:55.America, Brazil and Iran. A challenge to the space programmes
:44:56. > :45:04.that produced the Apollo and other space programmes. The average age is
:45:05. > :45:06.57 nowadays, NASA is finding it difficult to recruit people because
:45:07. > :45:12.it is not seen as the big opportunity for people it once was.
:45:13. > :45:17.Instead the bright sparks are increasingly attracted to companies
:45:18. > :45:25.such as Space X, selling cut price services back to NASA. Elon Mussk is
:45:26. > :45:30.someone who has driven the cost of reaching space down. He has how have
:45:31. > :45:33.we got into space in the past, Governments have centrally funded
:45:34. > :45:38.it, they have hired people in companies to hire other people in
:45:39. > :45:43.companies and sub, sub, sub-contract things out in order to bring rocket
:45:44. > :45:48.engines, boosters and spacecraft. You can cut out a lot of that
:45:49. > :45:54.pyramid structure and do things far more straight and efficiently with a
:45:55. > :45:57.single level. India faced criticism today that nation with so much
:45:58. > :46:03.poverty should not be spending money reaching for the stars. But others
:46:04. > :46:07.see this as essential for the country's future growth. It is an
:46:08. > :46:10.investment which India needs to make if it has to remain at the
:46:11. > :46:17.frontlines of technology in the world. And space is a brave man's
:46:18. > :46:25.business. India invests heavily towards that. Nearly half a century
:46:26. > :46:29.ago it was the moon, now it is Mars and beyond that is the goal for the
:46:30. > :46:35.growing pool of nations able to flex their muscles in space. That's all
:46:36. > :46:41.for tonight. Kirsty is back tomorrow, we leave you with a few of
:46:42. > :46:44.the paintings put on display today from the 1400 looted during the
:46:45. > :46:50.Second World War and found hidden away earlier this year in the Munich
:46:51. > :46:57.flat of one Gavin Gebhardt.