:00:09. > :00:08.Donovan. See you tomorrow. Good night!
:00:09. > :00:08.Donovan. See you tomorrow. Good Scissors and Jodie Penger and Jason
:00:09. > :00:33.Donovan. See you week. I really think it is important
:00:34. > :00:42.we get out and meet the community. I will speak to the police saying ?100
:00:43. > :00:47.million has been spent to make the police less effective. The climax of
:00:48. > :00:53.Borgen begins and I have an audience with the statistics minister. It is
:00:54. > :01:00.rare in a sense that you have to be this icon and perfect and morally
:01:01. > :01:07.above everybody else. A special report on the former child soldiers
:01:08. > :01:19.of Columbia, struggling to deal with their past.
:01:20. > :01:26.He is one of the world's greatest living adventurers, who has
:01:27. > :01:33.repeatedly faced death and temperatures as low as minus 80, now
:01:34. > :01:43.Sir Ranulph Fiennes has written his story.
:01:44. > :01:50.Good evening, it was heralded as the biggest change to policing since
:01:51. > :01:53.1829, one year on since 41 Police Commissioners got their hands on
:01:54. > :01:56.power, can you name your Police Commissioner, and have they made any
:01:57. > :02:09.difference to the fight against crime? In comic book culture they
:02:10. > :02:21.are public defenders, characters like Gotham City's commissioner GORD
:02:22. > :02:25.-- Commissioner Gordan, but in in country it is hard to get people
:02:26. > :02:34.excited about Police Commissioners, 15% people voted in the first
:02:35. > :02:39.election. This might have been a exercise in democratic exercise, but
:02:40. > :02:43.a year on we have Twitter rows, accusation claims and accusations of
:02:44. > :05:02.Well, clearly you have highlighted trust after the Hillsborough tragedy
:05:03. > :05:09.Well, clearly you have highlighted two important points there. When
:05:10. > :05:14.voters look at it and had the opportunity to kick me out, which
:05:15. > :05:22.they didn't have when I was chairman of the Police Authority. I think
:05:23. > :05:26.they will realise it was a shortlisting by the chief executive,
:05:27. > :05:30.and whilst I know him's one of the greatest deputies I could have. He's
:05:31. > :05:33.still a friend of yours, is it right to appoint friends as positions of
:05:34. > :05:36.deputies? I don't believe it is wrong to discriminate against
:05:37. > :05:45.someone just because you know them. There is also an on going row over
:05:46. > :05:48.the Andrew Mitchell pleggate affair. The commissioner for Warwickshire
:05:49. > :05:52.has been heavily criticised by politicians who said he rushed to
:05:53. > :05:56.the defence of the police in that case. That was strongly denied in a
:05:57. > :06:02.Newsnight interview. Is it not the case that the first report, sorry,
:06:03. > :06:05.concluded there was a case to answer and the second one didn't. That is
:06:06. > :06:10.correct, I didn't know that until today. Is it not also the case...
:06:11. > :06:16.You didn't know that until today? Correct. When did you first become
:06:17. > :06:19.aware of it? Lunchtime today. What were you doing defending your Chief
:06:20. > :06:24.Constable then, you didn't know what was going on? That is again, I think
:06:25. > :06:29.a bit of an oversimplification. And there have been a regular series of
:06:30. > :06:32.gaffes in the papers, like the commissioner from Middlesborough who
:06:33. > :06:36.had his mobile phone stolen from his pocket just before a meeting on
:06:37. > :06:40.retail crime. And more seriously the resignation of Paris Brown as a
:06:41. > :06:44.youth crime commissioner in Kent after a series of her offensive
:06:45. > :06:48.Twitter messages were published. The reason I wanted a youth commissioner
:06:49. > :06:50.is still there, we need this connection with young people.
:06:51. > :06:55.Sometimes things don't go according to plan. I'm interviewing next week
:06:56. > :06:59.for her replacement and I will have somebody in post by Christmas. There
:07:00. > :07:02.is a real need for this, that young person will be very, very well known
:07:03. > :07:09.in the county. Did make you look like an amateur, didn't it? I was
:07:10. > :07:12.not an amateur, it was unfortunate. The vetting process she went through
:07:13. > :07:17.was the same vetting process that every single police officer goes
:07:18. > :07:20.through. Just unfortunate. Ministers though claim a change like this was
:07:21. > :07:25.never going to be straight forward. It will, they say, take until the
:07:26. > :07:35.next set of elections in 2016 before the public really starts to see the
:07:36. > :07:41.full picture. I'm joined now by two Police Commissioners, Kevin Hurley
:07:42. > :07:45.from Surrey, and Jones from the -- Bob Jones who joins us from the West
:07:46. > :07:48.Midlands. You have done your own report card in the last year, what
:07:49. > :07:52.you think has been happening in England and Wales, and the scores
:07:53. > :07:56.are abysmal. Reducing crime three out of ten, public confidence, two
:07:57. > :08:01.out of ten, community safety funding three out of ten. It is
:08:02. > :08:04.jaw-droppingly abysmal? I think your previous report would reflect that
:08:05. > :08:09.sort of score from the general public. I think just in terms of the
:08:10. > :08:14.Home Secretary's judgment that it is all about reducing crime, since
:08:15. > :08:19.April, when the budgets and plans of the PCCs have come into place, we
:08:20. > :08:21.have seen three decades of ever-decreasing crime grind to a
:08:22. > :08:25.halt. And more police areas are showing an increase in crime since
:08:26. > :08:29.April. You have done your own survey, I presume you wouldn't put
:08:30. > :08:34.yourself out of line with these scores, why not just quit? I think
:08:35. > :08:38.this is a really important job to hold the police to account. It is
:08:39. > :08:42.not working? I don't think it is. I think it is better to have a bridge
:08:43. > :08:47.than a rope to cross a river. People like me make sure we don't drive a
:08:48. > :08:51.car across the rope ladder. If you don't think it is working or giving
:08:52. > :08:55.the public value for money or reducing crime or any of these
:08:56. > :09:00.things, why not hand back the bulk of your salary this year? I'm doing
:09:01. > :09:04.my best to mitigate the impact. I believe I am proving effective in
:09:05. > :09:09.stopping some of the damaging elements of the model. This morning
:09:10. > :09:12.I was awarded the first transparency award, which indicated I was doing
:09:13. > :09:18.the best to be open of any PCC in the country. And that's because I
:09:19. > :09:25.know the risks and I'm avoiding the risks. That was Bob Jones, trashing
:09:26. > :09:29.people like you? Bob's views are his views, this role is about much more
:09:30. > :09:34.than overseeing the police, it is about the crime bit. But nobody
:09:35. > :09:38.knows who you guys are? That is not true, certainly not in my area. What
:09:39. > :09:44.it is about is the crime bit is looking after Vic TRIEMs -- victim,
:09:45. > :09:47.making sure the Crown Prosecution Service and the court service and
:09:48. > :09:51.Borough Councils all work to the same agenda, dealing with crime and
:09:52. > :09:56.antisocial behaviour and giving victims a better service. Look at
:09:57. > :09:59.this on Bob Jones's report, public confidence two out of ten with a
:10:00. > :10:05.record low turnout at the election, record levels of hostile publicity
:10:06. > :10:10.and record numbers of investigations to PCC, clashes between police
:10:11. > :10:14.constables and PCC. There is no evidence it has led to more
:10:15. > :10:20.confidence or better governance in policing. He as not talking about
:10:21. > :10:24.himself but it is a pretty damning report. He is entitled to his view,
:10:25. > :10:27.but this is early days. The key part of the role is making sure victims
:10:28. > :10:30.get looked after by the other people who have a role to play. Not just
:10:31. > :10:34.the police. What we have is a new dog on the block and they are
:10:35. > :10:38.starting to bark and cut into the Crown Prosecution Service, the
:10:39. > :10:41.courts systems and borough and District Councils and say we are
:10:42. > :10:45.here to look after the public, let's do it together. It is not just the
:10:46. > :10:49.police's job. You are a new dog on the block, but aren't you just
:10:50. > :10:53.barking a bit louder what are you doing by way of the Probation
:10:54. > :10:57.Service probably being outsourced, Victim Support, do you support all
:10:58. > :10:59.this stuff? My position at the moment, I'm chairing on behalf of
:11:00. > :11:03.the police and crime commissioners. The way forward on victims I
:11:04. > :11:07.personally don't think what the Victim Support service do is broken.
:11:08. > :11:12.And so we're taking a very careful approach to look after victims. Bob
:11:13. > :11:17.Jones, you are meant to be acting on the public's behalf, let's just take
:11:18. > :11:22.plebgate, you came straight out of the traps and defended the police
:11:23. > :11:25.officers rather than standing out and saying I'm here on behalf of the
:11:26. > :11:28.public. Therefore, do people really think that you are independent and
:11:29. > :11:32.acting in their interests when clearly that was wrong? I think the
:11:33. > :11:35.possibly one saving grace of police and KROIM commissioners,
:11:36. > :11:40.particularly my -- and crime commissioners, particularly my
:11:41. > :11:44.colleagues in West Mercia is they haven't engaged in political
:11:45. > :11:47.grandstanding but they have gone for justice and what is right. Do you
:11:48. > :11:52.regret coming out and defending the officers? The take was on the IPCC,
:11:53. > :11:55.I would have thought it is fairly obvious they have made mistakes
:11:56. > :11:58.throughout. They should have independently managed the
:11:59. > :12:01.investigation, they clearly didn't supervise the investigation
:12:02. > :12:04.correctly, they have been forced to actually reverse all their decisions
:12:05. > :12:08.and actually go back to having that independent management. It did sound
:12:09. > :12:12.as if you were defending the officers? I'm defending the process.
:12:13. > :12:15.There needs to be fair due process, whether it is a police officer,
:12:16. > :12:19.cabinet member, or a member of the public, they need to be treated
:12:20. > :12:24.fairly and properly, the IPCC let us down on that basis. Isn't this the
:12:25. > :12:28.problem, actually the public doesn't actually know whose side you guys
:12:29. > :12:32.are on? The side we're all on, I would argue, is the side of the
:12:33. > :12:35.public. We are here to hear what is important to the public, and then
:12:36. > :12:39.make sure not only the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the
:12:40. > :12:45.court service, and dare I say the magistrates and judiciary, listen to
:12:46. > :12:50.the public. They want people to deal with antisocial elements, thieves,
:12:51. > :12:53.yobs and drug dealers. You are an ex-police officer, doesn't that put
:12:54. > :12:55.you on the side of the police officers? I'm a politician not a
:12:56. > :12:58.police officer. You were a police officer? I will be blunt i
:12:59. > :13:04.understand their business, they can't have me over should they
:13:05. > :13:08.choose to do so. If you gave the PCC such a bad report card nexty, will
:13:09. > :13:13.you stop before the end of your term, Bob Jones, and throw in the
:13:14. > :13:16.towel? If I could make way for somebody who would do a better job I
:13:17. > :13:22.would do. I haven't seen anyone who fits the bill yet. Because I'm aware
:13:23. > :13:29.of the risks I'm avoiding the pothole, I see myself like a ship, I
:13:30. > :13:33.don't believe there aren't any iceberg, I'm plotting a course to
:13:34. > :13:42.avoid the icebergs. There may be a pirate after new a moment! Coming
:13:43. > :13:48.up. I thought of a powerful person, leading a big ship. When I got to
:13:49. > :13:54.that stage where they are really, really powerful, I thought the
:13:55. > :13:59.gender wasn't very important. That in a moment, but first the Iraq
:14:00. > :14:03.inquiry, chaired by Sir John Chilcot is running just a bit late. We were
:14:04. > :14:07.told to expect the verdict last year, but nothing happened. Then the
:14:08. > :14:11.publication date shifted to the middle of thissy, but that too
:14:12. > :14:16.passed, without a word from Sir John. The latest date for our
:14:17. > :14:20.diaries is some time in the early part of 2014, but a stand-off
:14:21. > :14:24.between Chilcot and the cabinet secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, means
:14:25. > :14:29.we can expect even further delay. The row centres on the failure to
:14:30. > :14:32.agree the publication of documents including personal correspondence,
:14:33. > :14:40.between Tony Blair and George W Bush, so will Chilcot ever see the
:14:41. > :14:43.light of day. Here is our diplomatic editor.
:14:44. > :14:48.It has been going for four-and-a-half years. And was meant
:14:49. > :14:51.to finish three years ago. Central to the Iraq inquiry is the
:14:52. > :14:57.role of Tony Blair and his decision to join America's President Bush in
:14:58. > :15:00.attacking Iraq. What I was saying to President Bush was very clear and
:15:01. > :15:02.simple, you c count on us, we will be with you in tackling this, but
:15:03. > :15:09.here are the difficulties. be with you in tackling this, but
:15:10. > :15:12.was having to persuade him to take a view radically different from those
:15:13. > :15:16.in his administration. What I was saying to him is I will be with you
:15:17. > :15:21.in handling it this way. I'm not going to push you down this path and
:15:22. > :15:25.then back out when it gets too hot politically, because it is going to
:15:26. > :15:31.get hot politically. For me very, very much so. This is how it was
:15:32. > :15:35.meant to work, in October the inquiry sent letters to those who
:15:36. > :15:39.might be criticised telling them to expect imminently the details of
:15:40. > :15:42.possible channels. The letters containing the criticisms were
:15:43. > :15:47.drafted and should have been sent by now. The process called
:15:48. > :15:52.Maxwellisation, allows people to respond to the inquiry and was
:15:53. > :15:55.supposed to be nearly complete. The hope in Whitehall was that the
:15:56. > :16:00.finished report would be ready by February. But now that won't happen
:16:01. > :16:06.because the inquiry in the Cabinet Office cannot agree on the release
:16:07. > :16:09.of some secret papers. Writing to the Prime Minister ten
:16:10. > :16:11.days ago, the inquiry chairman reiterated the need to release
:16:12. > :16:31.details of: David Cameron says he will soon
:16:32. > :16:36.decide whether any more material can be declassified for the Iraq
:16:37. > :16:40.inquiry. The word on the street in Whitehall is while there might be
:16:41. > :16:44.some room for compromise over the cabinet minutes, the cabinet
:16:45. > :16:49.secretary is determined that the Prime Minister should hold firm on
:16:50. > :16:53.the communications between previous prime ministers and President Bush
:16:54. > :16:57.in the United States including those private notes written to President
:16:58. > :17:10.Bush by Tony Blair. Adding fuel to the fire, the former
:17:11. > :17:13.Foreign Secretary, Lord Owen this week wrote to Mr Cameron suggesting
:17:14. > :17:19.the cabinet secretary, Jeremy Heywood, was not the right man to
:17:20. > :17:23.ajudicate this issue, as he had been running Tony Blair's office at the
:17:24. > :17:30.time of the Iraq War. I will be speaking to Lord Owen in just a
:17:31. > :17:35.moment, but Mark is here. Is it possible that if John Chilcot does
:17:36. > :17:40.not get a satisfactory resolution to this he won't deliver a report? It
:17:41. > :17:43.is possible. I'm not sure it is likely. We have been building to
:17:44. > :17:48.this crisis, and we have now entered the really serious crisis of this
:17:49. > :17:51.process. For three years he has been trying to get this material
:17:52. > :17:55.declassified for use in his report. The people on the inquiry have seen
:17:56. > :18:00.it, it is a question of whether they can make it public. And he hasn't
:18:01. > :18:04.got what he wants and he has clearly decided to draw a line in the sand
:18:05. > :18:07.here, from the other side of the equation, David Cameron has to make
:18:08. > :18:11.the judgment. How far will he be swayed by the various considerations
:18:12. > :18:16.we don't know. We do know that Tony Blair, as so often in this is
:18:17. > :18:20.central. He has been making it clear how damaging he thinks it would be
:18:21. > :18:27.for prime ministers in the future if those things... Not perhaps his own
:18:28. > :18:31.reputation, who knows He has made that clear, there are all sorts of
:18:32. > :18:35.rumours going on about the lengths he would go to. His office denied
:18:36. > :18:39.suggestions that he might take legal action to stop the cabinet secretary
:18:40. > :18:46.going ahead and making public those communications which he, as we heard
:18:47. > :18:53.there, he considers to be private we don't think necessarily Gordon Brown
:18:54. > :18:56.shares that that view. This comes down to the Prime Minister right to
:18:57. > :19:04.secret communication with other leaders. David Owen, Lord Owen is in
:19:05. > :19:09.our studio from minute NAP lisence where he joins us -- minute AP
:19:10. > :19:14.lisence, from where he joins us. What do you make of what Mark is
:19:15. > :19:17.saying about what may happen. It is unlikely that Sir John Chilcot will
:19:18. > :19:24.not report, but it is possible without satisfaction and resolution
:19:25. > :19:30.in this there cannot be a complete report. It is very important -- It
:19:31. > :19:34.is very important the Chilcot committee are not rolled over in
:19:35. > :19:38.this. What are we discussing, a war that took place which we now have
:19:39. > :19:42.pretty clear evidence was done in defiance of a great deal of
:19:43. > :19:48.professional advice. That parliament was lied to and the intelligence
:19:49. > :19:53.which was quoted to parliament was justified by the Prime Minister in
:19:54. > :20:00.words which were not the same as were in the reports. In particular
:20:01. > :20:04.his forward, which was criticised by the chairman of the Chilcot Inquiry
:20:05. > :20:11.and another senior diplomat on the inquiry, was misleading parliament.
:20:12. > :20:13.Disingenious was how one cabinet secretary described the Prime
:20:14. > :20:17.Minister's presentation of the intelligence. This is not a minor
:20:18. > :20:22.matter, it is a very serious matter. To whom does it fault to sort this
:20:23. > :20:26.out? I gather it is the cabinet secretary. They are claiming, the
:20:27. > :20:30.report said it was David Cameron. It is very difficult for David Cameron,
:20:31. > :20:33.a Prime Minister from a different political party to make that
:20:34. > :20:38.judgment. And that's why I suggested it should be decided by the Lord
:20:39. > :20:42.Chancellor, who does actually make these decisions about after 30 years
:20:43. > :20:45.where the documents should be going. This inquiry was set up with the
:20:46. > :20:53.full knowledge that the decisions were being taken by President Bush
:20:54. > :20:59.and by our Prime Minister and that which Tony Blair wrote to the
:21:00. > :21:03.President Bush was writing as an official document as Prime Minister.
:21:04. > :21:09.Maybe confidential. Just to interrupt you there, David Cameron
:21:10. > :21:13.may be mindful of the privacy, accorded to correspondence, between
:21:14. > :21:18.prime ministers and other leaders, you know the leader of the United
:21:19. > :21:23.States, otherwise how can there ever be these conversations. Churchill?
:21:24. > :21:28.It is nothing to do with this, Churchill was actually criticised
:21:29. > :21:34.during the inquiry that took place during the First World War, because
:21:35. > :21:38.of the fiasco. The Iraq inquiry is about a fiasco, lo of British life
:21:39. > :21:42.with very little purpose, we are seeing that every day in a situation
:21:43. > :21:46.in the Middle East and affecting Iraq, but above all a very serious
:21:47. > :21:51.question, was parliament lied to or not? Was this a case of contempt of
:21:52. > :21:56.parliament? These are not minor issues. If Tony Blair manages to
:21:57. > :22:01.keep these letters confidential, what will the impact of this be? I
:22:02. > :22:05.wonder will you always be happy to release any correspondence that you
:22:06. > :22:10.had in your time in office, should it all be public? No I don't believe
:22:11. > :22:17.it should. Normally it is covered by, what we now have is the 20-year
:22:18. > :22:21.rule. Either something has gone very seriously wrong, and like going to
:22:22. > :22:31.war, then you have to have special measures. So an inquiry was set up
:22:32. > :22:37.of all Privy Council LORs, those -- Privy Councillors, those COMBRIEF
:22:38. > :22:43.Councillors have systems set up to show what they were doing as private
:22:44. > :22:47.citizens. Tony Blair's view is of secondary importance. You seem to be
:22:48. > :22:53.suggesting that Jeremy Heywood is compromised on this? Of course, he
:22:54. > :23:02.was his private secretary during the time of 1993 to this serious period.
:23:03. > :23:09.Of course we can't publish what President Bush said in reply. If the
:23:10. > :23:13.Americans insist that is top secret that has to be kept secret. We can't
:23:14. > :23:16.breach the secrecy of another head of Government. But our head of
:23:17. > :23:20.Government is being held accountable. It is a largely about
:23:21. > :23:26.Tony Blair. Are we going to allow Tony Blair to veto evidence which
:23:27. > :23:30.may be critical. Are you suggesting it was integrity a question of
:23:31. > :23:34.integrity? No I don't believe it is possible for somebody, I think he
:23:35. > :23:39.should recues himself, he was involved in that in Number Ten
:23:40. > :23:43.during this period. I'm sure he's a capable cabinet secretary and he
:23:44. > :23:47.should be invited to make inquiries in every other area bar this
:23:48. > :23:51.particular one. It was an unlikely massive hit. A political drama about
:23:52. > :23:55.the intricacies of coalition politics. But Danish television's
:23:56. > :24:07.Borgen was so much more than that. The first two years -- series were
:24:08. > :24:14.watched in many countries. Brigitte Nyborg takes credit for that. The
:24:15. > :24:18.public and private life of a conflicted woman gripped audiences.
:24:19. > :24:24.The third and final series begins on BBC Four. I went to Copenhagen to
:24:25. > :24:29.interview Sidse Babett Knudsen, who we all know as the statistics
:24:30. > :24:33.minister. How did the Danish parliament provide the setting for
:24:34. > :24:38.this series. The cameras go beyond the intrigue and plotting to show
:24:39. > :24:48.the damage of the domestic lives of those running the country.
:24:49. > :25:00.SGLIECHLT When I met Sidse Babett Knudsen, she
:25:01. > :25:04.told me how her character has changed since we last met her. First
:25:05. > :25:12.of all it has been two-and-a-half years since we left her at the end
:25:13. > :25:15.of season two and she has gone out of politics. That is the big thing.
:25:16. > :25:23.She has got into what do you call it, she's on boards, she's written a
:25:24. > :25:33.book. She does lectures, so in the private sector. Living with her
:25:34. > :25:39.children alone. She has become very rich. When you actually were looking
:25:40. > :25:43.at the idea of a powerful female political character, did you have
:25:44. > :25:48.anyone in mind? I thought about the powerful person, leading a big ship.
:25:49. > :25:55.And I thought I was looking at examples, but just as much of women
:25:56. > :26:00.leaders in all other sorts of areas. And then when I got to that stage
:26:01. > :26:08.where they are really, really powerful I thought the gender wasn't
:26:09. > :26:10.very important. Interesting though because there is a certain
:26:11. > :26:20.steeliness you find? Politicians are rare in the sense that as a person
:26:21. > :26:23.you have to be this icon and perfect and morally above everybody else,
:26:24. > :26:27.which you wouldn't demand off somebody in charge of a corporation
:26:28. > :26:32.or something else. As the character in the first two series, the writers
:26:33. > :26:36.gave you more tears in the script than you actually shed in Borgen, we
:26:37. > :26:40.don't see you crying that often. Was that y bringing your own sensibility
:26:41. > :26:44.to the character that you thought she would have behaved in a certain
:26:45. > :26:52.way and they thought differently? Absolutely, I thought that she's a
:26:53. > :27:02.hero, and we have to believe that she is be in a room. There was, it
:27:03. > :27:07.was the way, how she, emotionally reacted to decisions, for example,
:27:08. > :27:13.very conscious, a bit overconscious is what I thought. That she felt bad
:27:14. > :27:17.when she made a tough decision and regretted it and on behalf of
:27:18. > :27:23.everyone and all that. You don't have time to feel or think like that
:27:24. > :27:29.when you are up there. So, and also I thought then she's not going to
:27:30. > :27:33.look responsible. So I think it was very important to me that she was
:27:34. > :27:37.responsible for her actions, she took responsibility. And of course
:27:38. > :27:42.the relationship with your then husband, created huge arguments in
:27:43. > :27:50.households all over Britain, I can tell you, about whether he had been
:27:51. > :27:55.an absolute or reneged on the deal. Did you tussle over that about how
:27:56. > :28:09.to play that between you? Not between us, but in the writing room,
:28:10. > :28:19.yeah. I thought YEP! Absolutely. The "wuss"! We did have this discussion
:28:20. > :28:25.where I said I think it is very important for her if he's cheating
:28:26. > :28:34.it is a big thing. Yeah but he was really sad, yeah, but it is a big
:28:35. > :28:38.thing, you know. That is sort of a male-female thing whether a slip on
:28:39. > :28:42.the side is important or not. There has been a study by Danish Business
:28:43. > :28:48.Schools saying that Borgen itself has countered a kind of apathy in
:28:49. > :28:53.politics. And actually it has been interesting about engaging people in
:28:54. > :28:57.politics in Denmark again? The funny thing is when I was first told about
:28:58. > :29:02.the project, I thought politics, the Danes won't like that. And then when
:29:03. > :29:07.it became something real you suddenly had cab drivers talking
:29:08. > :29:12.more about politics. I think it happened at the same time. There is
:29:13. > :29:15.a lot to do with timing, a lot of lucky timing going on with the
:29:16. > :29:19.series. It seems to be less cynical often than some of the dramas we
:29:20. > :29:23.have in DRIN about women in power. -- in Britain about women in power.
:29:24. > :29:27.There has to be an edge to it. It wasn't like the West Wing but it had
:29:28. > :29:33.a more positive feel to it? In general the whole show is not very
:29:34. > :29:36.cynical. I think that's a Danish thing. Do you think there is a
:29:37. > :29:43.respect for politicians here? In Denmark like in the UK and Scotland
:29:44. > :29:50.that people don't, they are angry with their politicians. The
:29:51. > :29:55.confidence has, is not very big. Right now we have an election here
:29:56. > :30:03.next week. What's most visible in the campaign is please vote. Did you
:30:04. > :30:07.imagine the whole season would touch such a nerve, it was shown in more
:30:08. > :30:11.than 70 countries, it is a massive hit. Within you set out did you
:30:12. > :30:15.think you were making a drama for Denmark? Absolutely. It is the most
:30:16. > :30:20.Danish thing that I have ever been in. It is about Danish politics
:30:21. > :30:25.going on in Denmark. And it is in Danish, you know. Compared to
:30:26. > :30:31.international politics we always think local politics is a bit, just
:30:32. > :30:36.for us! So it was really, really amazing that anybody else would be
:30:37. > :30:42.interested in it. And identify. And the final series of Borgen can be
:30:43. > :30:46.seen on BBC Four on Saturday night. Don't miss it.
:30:47. > :30:50.Columbia's Civil War has been raging for 50 years, the ideolgical
:30:51. > :30:54.struggle has involved thousands of child soldiers. A year ago peace
:30:55. > :31:00.talks began between the Government and the main guerrilla group, FARC.
:31:01. > :31:03.Since then more and more child combatants have demobilised, handing
:31:04. > :31:07.themselves over to the authorities. We have been to see some of these
:31:08. > :31:18.child soldiers, I must warn you that some of them have very disturbing
:31:19. > :31:27.tales to tell. Killing time in the Colombian jungle might look like any
:31:28. > :31:35.young boy's dream. Here the undergrowth is lush, and there is no
:31:36. > :31:39.shortage of sticks to fashion into guns. But these teenagers are
:31:40. > :31:43.showing us what life was really like as child soldiers. Only months ago
:31:44. > :31:46.they were fighting with armed rebel groups, against the Colombian
:31:47. > :32:16.Government. Carl Lord Chief Justices now 16, was
:32:17. > :32:22.a rebel commander with the armed group he fought for. We have had to
:32:23. > :32:44.protect his identity, he has received death threats for speaking
:32:45. > :32:47.out against former leaderss, now 16, was a rebel commander with the armed
:32:48. > :32:49.group he fought for. We have had to protect his identity, he has
:32:50. > :32:51.received death threats for speaking out against former leaders. Child
:32:52. > :32:57.combatants like him are deserting rebels at an alarming rate, heading
:32:58. > :33:01.for rehabilitation centres in the mountains. It is run by the very
:33:02. > :33:13.people they have been fighting against, the Government. With a --
:33:14. > :33:17.we are the first foreign journalists allowed in here. The children get to
:33:18. > :33:24.stay here and play here until they trust authority again. Some of them
:33:25. > :33:25.like Yolanda who is 16 have suffered unspeakable trauma. She was more
:33:26. > :34:05.comfortable talking to her There is life after the guerrillas,
:34:06. > :34:10.this woman spent three years as a child soldier, she was recruited by
:34:11. > :34:12.the FARC when she was 12, she now lives with her two daughters and
:34:13. > :34:25.younger sister. Some combatants were executed by
:34:26. > :34:27.their own commanders, she told me how new recruits were forced to
:34:28. > :36:08.watch. Children are still at risk of forced
:36:09. > :36:14.recruitment, people are worried. Here in central Columbia it is said
:36:15. > :36:18.the FARC lures children, handing out weapons, mobile phones and trainers.
:36:19. > :36:28.In return the army hands out gifts and leads kids around town. Strange
:36:29. > :36:31.as it seems this is the frontline in Columbia's conflict for children.
:36:32. > :36:36.Both the military and the guerrilla groups want to win over the young of
:36:37. > :36:38.this country. And persuade them not to fall into the hands of the other
:36:39. > :36:54.side. ? This football match organised by
:36:55. > :36:59.the army is meant to keep children out of trouble. The parents are
:37:00. > :37:20.worried about more than the final score.
:37:21. > :37:25.After years with the rebels it takes time to learn to trust others,
:37:26. > :37:32.especially those in a position of authority. Nice to meet you. This is
:37:33. > :37:38.where you live. Can I have a look? This is a charity-run rehabilitation
:37:39. > :37:45.programme for those who don't want the Government's projection. --
:37:46. > :37:52.protection. People like this girl who fought for the EPL, a small
:37:53. > :38:14.left-wing group, he was made commander at 14.
:38:15. > :38:20.The charity is sceptical of the Government's efforts to protect
:38:21. > :38:54.former combatants. The Government denies the
:38:55. > :39:00.allegations. Has the military ever had to use children, people under
:39:01. > :39:04.18, teenagers, as a means to gather information as informants if you
:39:05. > :39:10.like in rural communities? No. We don't use them, it is prohibited and
:39:11. > :39:17.we have not only our legal framework in Columbia ow bee -- but our
:39:18. > :39:22.internal regulation that prohibits using minors to any activities like
:39:23. > :39:27.the ones you just mentioned. We have the collaboration and co-operation
:39:28. > :39:30.of adults demobilised from the guerrilla groups, they have been
:39:31. > :39:39.very effective in providing information to continue the strategy
:39:40. > :39:47.against the FARC and the ELM. It is not known how many children are
:39:48. > :39:57.still fighting for the guerrillas. Thousands have already demobilised,
:39:58. > :40:04.adding to the pressure on the authorities. They are erasing the
:40:05. > :40:08.nightmares of the real wars in Columbia's jungle, but it could take
:40:09. > :40:13.many, many years. You can see a longer version of that report on Our
:40:14. > :40:17.World at the weekend on BBC News channel. He's an explorer who has
:40:18. > :40:23.been to hell and back. He has tested the limits of his endurance to the
:40:24. > :40:29.maximum, and lost many fingers to frostbite. Sir Ranulph Fiennes has
:40:30. > :40:33.led 30 expedition, and endured some of the coldest and most hostile
:40:34. > :40:44.conditions in the planet in pursuit of discovery. His new book is titled
:40:45. > :40:50.appropriately Cold. Cold, what does it feel like to be at minus 80? It
:40:51. > :40:54.is a different feeling. The English language should have a new word for
:40:55. > :41:00.it. You get very cold when you are in Wales, you can get hypothermia,
:41:01. > :41:04.but it isn't the same permanent desire to get into a foetal
:41:05. > :41:10.position. It makes you have very upset with the other person you
:41:11. > :41:14.might be with if he, normally it is a, if he's slow that day, and you
:41:15. > :41:18.are having to wait. You really get more unpleasant than you normally
:41:19. > :41:24.are with other people when it is like that. It is something that most
:41:25. > :41:29.people could never imagine. For you that endurance of the cold, do you
:41:30. > :41:38.think it has to take a special, as I would say in thoughts "throawn"
:41:39. > :41:43.character to do that? Not really. We choose people carefully. We like
:41:44. > :41:47.people who are placid, not thick. That is good to know your te members
:41:48. > :41:51.are not thick? They are ex-military which comes to the same sort of
:41:52. > :41:54.thing. We don't want them to get very excited when things are going
:41:55. > :42:01.well or down in the dumps when they are not. Is it an even temper? Yes.
:42:02. > :42:07.But you have put yourself through hell, and on your level hand you
:42:08. > :42:12.don't have the finished fingers any more. You had to actually medicate
:42:13. > :42:16.yourself for that, you had to do some chopping yourself in the
:42:17. > :42:19.fingers? That was back in the UK that was only because my late wife
:42:20. > :42:23.said I was getting very irritable because touching the mummified
:42:24. > :42:29.fingertips against anything was really painful. They don't amputate
:42:30. > :42:36.properly until five months after the thing happens. So in order to stop
:42:37. > :42:42.the pain I bought a Black Decker and microblade, my late wife brought
:42:43. > :42:48.me cups of tea and it took two days to get through the thumb by turning
:42:49. > :42:54.it around f it hurt or bled you moved the saw PURT away. That is one
:42:55. > :42:59.extreme, in terms of the achievements you have had in your
:43:00. > :43:02.expeditions, what has been the greatest one? The book goes back 300
:43:03. > :43:06.years, it was mainly funnily enough the Brits who kept wanting to know
:43:07. > :43:10.what the hell was north, where it was white and cold. They kept
:43:11. > :43:15.sending ships up there, more than any other nation and they didn't
:43:16. > :43:22.come back. Because they went up channels look ing for some
:43:23. > :43:27.commercial route in what is Canada and the ice closed in on the ships
:43:28. > :43:32.and they waited for summer, and they were there three or four years, they
:43:33. > :43:35.related to cannibalism, and scurvy went through them. Yet it was the
:43:36. > :43:39.Americans who claimed the North Pole and the Norwegians who claimed the
:43:40. > :43:44.south pole and 60 years after Scott our group decided we would get our
:43:45. > :43:48.own back and do the big polar expedition, which is to cross the
:43:49. > :43:53.whole of the Arctic, Antarctic, 52,000 miles, the only people have
:43:54. > :43:57.been around earth vertically and it took, we never flew one metre, it
:43:58. > :44:02.took three years of permanent travel and that was one of the ition one
:44:03. > :44:08.could say we were very relieved to succeed. Let me see your fingers,
:44:09. > :44:18.how does that hand operate in cold now, what happens now? I have done
:44:19. > :44:26.many expeditions with Dr Mike Stroud, we never used hand warmers
:44:27. > :44:32.by-election the south pole one year, Mike got hypo othermia at 52 degrees
:44:33. > :44:37.in the summertime. We never wore anything artificial. The idea being
:44:38. > :44:45.why wouldn't you have charcoal warmers? You could say it was
:44:46. > :44:50.cheating rather like us autoing wind as a means for pushing things along.
:44:51. > :44:54.Unsupported it unsupported. At the end of the book you say, "what is
:44:55. > :45:01.certain whether humans are involved or not is that global warming is a
:45:02. > :45:06.growing reality, cold as we know it is slowly but surely on the way
:45:07. > :45:10.out". That certainty about global warming, have you always had it
:45:11. > :45:16.since you started? No, in Antarctica it is not evident. You have two
:45:17. > :45:20.miles of ice sitting on 10,000 foot-high mountains. Even if the ice
:45:21. > :45:27.is getting less you can't see it. But up in the Arctic in the early
:45:28. > :45:31.1970s I designed sledges which might run into a bit of water so they
:45:32. > :45:36.needed to be waterproof. Several years after that I was designing
:45:37. > :45:39.canoes because there was more water than ice. Thank you very much. Now
:45:40. > :45:45.the front pages. The Prince is a friend of yours, are
:45:46. > :46:12.you going to wish him a happy birthday? A great patron.
:46:13. > :46:20.We leave you tonight with a story of 54-year-old Jim, a homeless
:46:21. > :46:24.alcoholic veteran with alcohol problems. He was given a makeover to
:46:25. > :46:29.raise awareness of a homeless charity. The video of his
:46:30. > :46:37.transformation has been viewed more than 30 million times on-line, and
:46:38. > :46:48.raising ?30,000. Jim is attending AA now and turning his life around.