:00:09. > :00:23.things. # And then I don't feel so bad!
:00:24. > :00:23.# I simply remember my favourite things.
:00:24. > :00:40.And... . Terrible things were done At least one of the fighters
:00:41. > :01:01.And... . Terrible things were done during
:01:02. > :01:10.And... . Terrible things were done one of them? Also tonight:
:01:11. > :01:14.Some of the white people from our generation from the Deep South still
:01:15. > :01:28.struggle with racism and how to overcome it. We talk to John GRISH
:01:29. > :01:34.sham about the real south. TRANSMIT We have heard warnings about Jihadi
:01:35. > :01:39.tourism, young men leaving for wars across the board. With the stated
:01:40. > :01:43.threat that they will return to this country bent on continuing the fight
:01:44. > :01:47.here. Precise cases are another matter though. On the day that it
:01:48. > :01:53.emerged that a second British man has been killed fighting in Syria,
:01:54. > :01:58.Newsnight can tell the exclusive story of a young man who has gone
:01:59. > :02:15.from a British city to what he considers a holy war in Syria. Day
:02:16. > :02:23.breaks over Portsmouth. And for a 23-year-old Britishman who has gone
:02:24. > :02:29.to Syria to fight Jihad or holy war. Allah hu Akbar. We have obtained an
:02:30. > :02:38.interview with him close to the Syrian front line. We speak to his
:02:39. > :02:42.family here in the UK. If he dies in this cause he has not died in vain,
:02:43. > :02:48.he has died doing a good deed or act. Our exclusive comes two weeks
:02:49. > :02:53.after Britain's spies warned about the dangers to the UK of people
:02:54. > :03:02.travelling to Syria to fight. They think you are a threat to national
:03:03. > :03:09.security, what would you say to that? He was born in Britain, he
:03:10. > :03:13.grew up in the seaside town of South Sea, part of the wider Portsmouth
:03:14. > :03:17.city I can't remember. He has been a prolific user of social media and
:03:18. > :03:22.working with academics from King's College London we have been
:03:23. > :03:26.analysing his tweets. Some of which have been based on his experiences
:03:27. > :03:32.close to the Syrian front line. We have been working with an academic
:03:33. > :03:36.from King's College London, he has been researching Brits joining
:03:37. > :03:40.opposition groups fighting the Assad regime. This is a British national
:03:41. > :03:44.gone over in the last few weeks. You can see it is very macho, it is very
:03:45. > :03:48.much appealing to the kinds of things young men are interested in.
:03:49. > :03:52.Here is a guy standing there with ISI kit, he has his gun, his friends
:03:53. > :03:57.are behind him undertaking military training. In the initial phases
:03:58. > :04:00.people stayed under the radar. Now the next people going over, we have
:04:01. > :04:06.a critical mass in Syria, they are seeking a slightly higher profile
:04:07. > :04:12.and positivise it to people back in the UK and encourage people to come
:04:13. > :04:17.over. He think this is him in Syria. We spent last week in Portsmouth,
:04:18. > :04:27.investigating the story of the 23-year-old Brit who told us he as
:04:28. > :04:34.fighting Jihad, or holy war. He's The man on the left is Portsmouth
:04:35. > :04:40.born and bred. His family are from Bangladesh and arrived 50 years ago.
:04:41. > :04:44.He used to work with the voluntary Dour Team, that is spreading the
:04:45. > :04:49.word of Islam. By the end of last year, the young man who had grown up
:04:50. > :04:53.around these quiet streets was showing an interest in radical
:04:54. > :05:00.Islam. On the 4th of December on his Twitter account, he posted a video
:05:01. > :05:07.of one of Al-Qaeda's key recruiters. The base from which the great Jihad
:05:08. > :05:12.from the Arabian peninsula will begin, the place from which the
:05:13. > :05:17.greatest Islam army will go forward. This was an American citizen who
:05:18. > :05:21.returned to his ancestoral hope in Yemen. He was described as the Bin
:05:22. > :05:28.Laden of the internet. He was killed by a drone strike in Yemen two years
:05:29. > :05:34.ago. Back in Portsmouth, German was still spreading the word about Islam
:05:35. > :05:41.as early as April. Soon after he left for Turkey and on to Syria. He
:05:42. > :05:52.joined one of the most radical opposition groups in Syria ISIS, the
:05:53. > :06:05.reference is to the Syrian region. He posted this ISIS video on
:06:06. > :06:10.Twitter. It is an remist group, it is part of Al-Qaeda and in Syria.
:06:11. > :06:15.You don't have any doubt that ISIS did form an affiliation with
:06:16. > :06:20.Al-Qaeda? It is an affiliate of Al-Qaeda on the ground in Syria. In
:06:21. > :06:24.sports mouth we contacted -- Portsmouth we contacted the family.
:06:25. > :06:29.I spoke to his uncle and father who work in the family takeaway business
:06:30. > :06:33.not far from here. Nearly wanted to be interviewed but they told me
:06:34. > :06:39.about his early life. They told us he went to an Islamic school, a
:06:40. > :06:42.Madrassa for about a year at the age of 11 or 12. He went to school and
:06:43. > :06:45.college around here, we was very much part of British life. After
:06:46. > :06:55.several days of negotiation his brother agreed to meet me. We
:06:56. > :07:00.arranged to speak to Iftakar in Syria by Skype. We are break
:07:01. > :07:06.on-line. That's good. He was ready to confirm he has joined ISIS, and
:07:07. > :07:14.his aim was to create an Islamic state. He refers to doula, a shorter
:07:15. > :07:36.term for the -- Doula, a shorter name for the group.
:07:37. > :08:20.He said volunteers had come to Syria from far and wide. Do you think it
:08:21. > :08:32.is then justified to take up arms in Syria to fight basically?
:08:33. > :08:36.He told me he supported the principle of Jihad when he lived in
:08:37. > :09:24.the UK. Before he left for Syria. He then explained that when he said
:09:25. > :09:28.he was a Jihadi, he meant someone committed to the Islamic principle
:09:29. > :09:30.of Jihad. You are quite clear that you were a Jihadi basically and you
:09:31. > :10:03.are now, I suppose? By early this year some people in
:10:04. > :10:09.mortages mouth's Muslim community were concerned. This man owns a cafe
:10:10. > :10:14.where Iftakar and his friends used to eat. I had my son brought to the
:10:15. > :10:19.chairman of the mosque and a few other people who I know, and who I
:10:20. > :10:24.know their sons have tried to talk to them and tell them that please
:10:25. > :10:31.tell your boys keep an eye on your boys and see what they are doing.
:10:32. > :10:34.Iftakar's brother, who is clearly sympathetic to his views said the
:10:35. > :10:37.west had let Syria down. Syria called for the world to get
:10:38. > :10:40.involved, nobody stepped in. Now that people from around the world
:10:41. > :10:44.are coming in, everyone is calling them terrorists, when this should
:10:45. > :10:48.have been a job backed by the UN, NATO, whoever, they should have come
:10:49. > :10:56.in three years ago when this was all going on. Nobody came to their call.
:10:57. > :10:59.So the Muslims came in. Iftakar said it was too late for western
:11:00. > :11:04.intervention, help would be rejected. A term which means in this
:11:05. > :11:08.context that forces would be attacked. Is part of the reason why
:11:09. > :11:11.you have felt you had to go to Syria was because the west did not
:11:12. > :11:58.intervene early enough? ISIS has been accused of brutality
:11:59. > :12:01.in some Syrian towns where it has control. Ruthless summary
:12:02. > :12:10.punishments of those who oppose their hardline vision of an Islamic
:12:11. > :12:13.state. But Iftakar's brother says ISIS does good works and they
:12:14. > :12:17.shouldn't be considered terrorists. Terrorists don't open schools and
:12:18. > :12:22.places for educating children. They don't fund kids and families. This
:12:23. > :12:28.is what Doula are doing. They provide the community with food. But
:12:29. > :12:35.winning hearts and minds can tactically go hand in hand with
:12:36. > :12:39.fighting. Al-Qaeda h learned, as an overall movement. It realises it
:12:40. > :12:43.needs to do social welfare and reach out to people. So, yes, they are on
:12:44. > :12:46.the ground in Syria distributing food, making sure people have
:12:47. > :12:52.electricity to stay warm at night in their homes, making sure people are
:12:53. > :12:55.well protected, fed, that they have bread, access to medical cautious
:12:56. > :13:00.all the civil societies that we have traditionally seen other Islamist
:13:01. > :13:03.groups do, Hezbollah and Hamas, never Al-Qaeda. That is something
:13:04. > :13:09.they are exploring and exploiting well on the ground in Syria. I asked
:13:10. > :13:17.Iftakar about this video posts on the net, it shows an ex-- posted on
:13:18. > :13:23.the net, it shows extremist group executing lorry drivers who they
:13:24. > :13:25.believed were Shia mums. I wouldn't shoot nobody, it wouldn't be
:13:26. > :13:42.something I would do. That is my stance on it. Have you ever seen
:13:43. > :13:46.ISIS behave in that way in Syria? British authorities view you as a
:13:47. > :13:55.national security threat, what would you say to that? Are you willing to
:13:56. > :14:15.die for this cause? If he dies in this cause he has not
:14:16. > :14:19.died in vain, he has died doing a good deed or act. Newsnight
:14:20. > :14:24.understands that four or five others from Portsmouth followed Iftakar out
:14:25. > :14:35.to Syria. We don't know their identities, but before they went
:14:36. > :14:40.they left letters for their parents. They used to meet at the local
:14:41. > :14:43.mosque. When we turned up last week we found Hampshire Police were there
:14:44. > :14:48.to talk about extremism and Syria. Some in the community told us that
:14:49. > :14:52.the mosque committee were slow to act about this group. I know their
:14:53. > :14:58.parents and I know these children also here. They come here for a
:14:59. > :15:01.prayer time, but I did not know what they are discussing about or
:15:02. > :15:06.anything about it. But you don't know what they were discussing. No I
:15:07. > :15:10.don't know. I was unaware of it completely. But it was enough for
:15:11. > :15:18.you to put some posters up saying you can't stay here? Yes. But the
:15:19. > :15:25.younger generations say their he willeders were out-of-touch. On
:15:26. > :15:30.controversial issues such as are Shias true Muslims, they were taking
:15:31. > :15:34.resources from the Internet. Say there was a fatwah produced from
:15:35. > :15:37.Saudi, we would hear it, they don't because they don't have that source
:15:38. > :15:41.of information. We can look around on the Internet. We found Shias are
:15:42. > :15:44.not Muslims, they have been classed as non-Muslims, if we tell them that
:15:45. > :15:48.they will say you are young and you don't know what you were talking
:15:49. > :15:53.about. If they were able to use the Internet they would see that the
:15:54. > :15:56.scolars have announced they are not Muslims.
:15:57. > :16:00.A radical view indeed. Though there is clearly support for this in
:16:01. > :16:04.speeches on the Internet, if you know where to search. The story of
:16:05. > :16:08.how this group of young men traded their safe lives in Portsmouth for
:16:09. > :16:12.the battlefields of Syria, touches on many questions, the gulf between
:16:13. > :16:22.young and old, the power of the internet and the lure of Jihad. We
:16:23. > :16:26.have our Richard Haass from the Quilliam Foundation, radicalised in
:16:27. > :16:33.the early 1990s and went to fight in Afghanistan. He has since sought to
:16:34. > :16:39.pre vent radicalisation. Any idea of how -- prevent radicalisation. Any
:16:40. > :16:43.idea how many men there are like this? A few hundred from the UK and
:16:44. > :16:46.a few hundred from other European countries. Do you judge what you
:16:47. > :16:52.know of them that they are danger to this country? Not all of them. We
:16:53. > :16:56.hope if most of them come back, those who do come back, the majority
:16:57. > :17:00.will find an occupation or profession. But there is certainly a
:17:01. > :17:07.significant danger of some of them being taught by Al-Qaeda especially
:17:08. > :17:11.when they are with Al-Qaeda groups that the west is a legitimate target
:17:12. > :17:15.and a land of war. We have seen that with the 7/7 bombers. It is
:17:16. > :17:22.interesting this element that was mentioned in Richard Watson's film
:17:23. > :17:29.there, of the power of the Internet to prevent there being one orthodox
:17:30. > :17:36.view which might restrain or shape behaviour. How real is that
:17:37. > :17:39.phenomenon? It is certainly real for younger generations, of course, in
:17:40. > :17:43.the west and the developed world. People use the Internet all the time
:17:44. > :17:48.and they are watching all kinds of videos, especially somewhere fairly
:17:49. > :17:52.marginalised like Portsmouth, from the mainstream Muslim communities. I
:17:53. > :17:55.lived in Portsmouth myself 15 years ago, it is fairly isolated
:17:56. > :18:01.community. And those young men would have probably found it exhilarating
:18:02. > :18:05.to watch preachers and Jihadist videos from around the world on the
:18:06. > :18:08.Internet and say they want to be part of that. It is the pull of
:18:09. > :18:13.adventure for young people to go and fight somewhere. I did that myself
:18:14. > :18:17.when I was younger. That was pre-9/11. These people are
:18:18. > :18:22.westerners and talking about "they" are not welcome here. They have that
:18:23. > :18:25.same identity crisis the Islamist ideology means they feel they can
:18:26. > :18:29.only be with Al-Qaeda fighters against the west. What they need to
:18:30. > :18:32.be is integrated British citizens and the only way to go abroad to
:18:33. > :18:35.fight is with the British Armed Forces. Yet we would have to
:18:36. > :18:41.recognise, wouldn't we that there is a long and not ignoble tradition of
:18:42. > :18:44.people going from this country to fight in foreign wars, you think
:18:45. > :18:48.about something out of the Spanish Civil War, people for political
:18:49. > :18:51.reasons went off to fight in the Spanish Civil War, they are not
:18:52. > :19:00.being treated in the way these young men are being considered? There is a
:19:01. > :19:05.kind of heroism and youthful ideaism -- idealism, much like those
:19:06. > :19:10.fighting in the Civil War. But post-9/11 Al-Qaeda is ideology is
:19:11. > :19:14.clear, They have incited attacks and carried out attacks in the west.
:19:15. > :19:18.They have recruited young men like this in Afghanistan, Afghanistan,
:19:19. > :19:22.Syria and other places to come and attack this country. The Glasgow
:19:23. > :19:28.bombing, and the 7/7 bombings, we have to be careful about what they
:19:29. > :19:31.may do when they come back. The Terrorism Act of 2006 allows
:19:32. > :19:36.prosecution of these young men, but nobody has been prosecuted yet. I
:19:37. > :19:40.think in this country we would like to see people come back and settle
:19:41. > :19:44.peacefully into jobs and things. And nobody would be too worried about
:19:45. > :19:47.that. But there is a significant danger of extremist or terrorist
:19:48. > :19:53.activity when people do come back. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now
:19:54. > :19:58.the Prime Minister announced today that there would be another inquiry
:19:59. > :20:01.into the unfolding nightmare at the Co-operative Bank, by our
:20:02. > :20:05.calculation that takes the number to five. Inquiries of one sort or
:20:06. > :20:10.another are what you might expect when it turns out an avowedly
:20:11. > :20:19.ethical financial institution has been run into ground by an
:20:20. > :20:23.unqualified Methodist minister with decidedly unecclesiastical tastes.
:20:24. > :20:26.The Prime Minister had a rather enjoyable Prime Minister's
:20:27. > :20:29.Questions. The first priority is to safeguard this bank and make sure it
:20:30. > :20:34.is safeguarded without using tax-payers' money. That must be the
:20:35. > :20:39.priority. My Right Honourable friend the Chancellor will be discussing
:20:40. > :20:42.with the regulators what is the appropriate form of inquiry to get
:20:43. > :20:48.to the bottom of what went wrong here. Now our reporter is taking a
:20:49. > :20:53.close interest in the story and is here now. How independent can this
:20:54. > :20:58.inquiry be? Well it is a very good question. The big question really is
:20:59. > :21:04.who is investigating who? And whether anybody can maintain a safe
:21:05. > :21:09.unembarrassing distance from any of the inquiries going on. The Treasury
:21:10. > :21:12.has initiated this inquiry, it is not clear they are at a comfortable
:21:13. > :21:18.distance and the Labour Party has a few issues. There are a few distinct
:21:19. > :21:23.issues around the Co-Op under the spotlight. One is the appointment of
:21:24. > :21:27.Paul Flowers as the chairman of the group. How did that happen, the role
:21:28. > :21:34.of the politician, the bank and the board. The other is how it ended up
:21:35. > :21:37.with a ?1. Five billion black hole when the regulators were saying you
:21:38. > :21:41.should buy branches of Lloyd's. We had a bit more from the Labour Party
:21:42. > :21:44.today, when we heard about the revelations of Paul Flowers
:21:45. > :21:47.resigning from Bradford council back in 2011 there was this question of
:21:48. > :21:52.whether he kept his membership of the Labour Party. Because he stayed
:21:53. > :21:56.as an adviser to Ed Miliband until March 2012. Now we heard earlier
:21:57. > :21:59.this week from the Labour Party that actually they just suspended his
:22:00. > :22:04.membership, that was their line. But we have spoken to the Chief Whip on
:22:05. > :22:08.Bradford City council who says that actually it was his understanding
:22:09. > :22:17.that back in 2011 Paul Flowers resigned his membership of the
:22:18. > :22:22.Labour Party. Embarrassing for the Tories too? Not so much on the issue
:22:23. > :22:30.of Paul Flowers' appointment, the other issue which is hold the Co-Op
:22:31. > :22:33.below the water line, that stemmed from the transaction of the the
:22:34. > :22:37.buying of the Britannia Building Society, we know that Ed Miliband
:22:38. > :22:40.was banging the drum for that when he was at the Treasury. The Treasury
:22:41. > :22:44.in the coalition Government said as recently as October last year that
:22:45. > :22:47.it was a transaction in the interests of Co-Op members and
:22:48. > :22:50.George Osborne can't claim not to have had an interest. We dug up a
:22:51. > :23:01.clip of George Osborne in July last year saying how good he thought he
:23:02. > :23:04.thought the purchase would be for the economy. We have been on the
:23:05. > :23:08.phones in the recent months to try to get these Lloyd's branches into
:23:09. > :23:12.the hands of the Co-Op, we want new names on the high street to deliver
:23:13. > :23:15.more choice for customer, to make sure we have got more banks out
:23:16. > :23:19.there offering good deals for people. We are very happy with this
:23:20. > :23:23.deal, it is a good thing for the British economy. What about the
:23:24. > :23:27.regulators, are they investigating themselves? The short answer is,
:23:28. > :23:29.yes. This inquiry has been arranged by the potential regulation
:23:30. > :23:32.authority. Now that's one of two bodies that was set up just at the
:23:33. > :23:38.end of last year. There is the consumer body, the financial conduct
:23:39. > :23:41.authority. And there is also the Prudential regulation authority,
:23:42. > :23:45.which is in charge of ensuring the banks don't go bust so we all have
:23:46. > :23:49.to bail them out. The potential regulation authority, which is
:23:50. > :23:53.setting up this inquiry is also full of people who were at the Financial
:23:54. > :24:01.Services Authority before, when the transaction was being approved. Mark
:24:02. > :24:05.Tabour is a campaigner for the bondholders, pensioners who wanted
:24:06. > :24:09.income from the bonds, he's not sure the regulators are in a position to
:24:10. > :24:15.investigate themselves. Well he's just disappear, but don't you worry
:24:16. > :24:18.about him. Of course all these things are retrospective, all
:24:19. > :24:22.looking back. In the meantime there are a lot of rather pressing issues
:24:23. > :24:26.going forward? Yes, there are. Looking forward we have to secure
:24:27. > :24:31.the recapitalisation, that has to be the priority. 15,000 bondholders are
:24:32. > :24:35.hoping that the hedge funds who are putting money in aren't going to
:24:36. > :24:39.lose faith and will stay with the transaction, they are bound to it,
:24:40. > :24:43.they should do. So on the 11th of December when the votes for the
:24:44. > :24:46.favour of recapitalisation, there will be money enough to keep the
:24:47. > :24:51.Co-Op alive. The ratings agencies have warned that obviously if that
:24:52. > :24:55.doesn't happen the alternative may be nationalisation, we are not there
:24:56. > :24:58.yet, if you have less than ?85,000 with the Co-Op, don't worry the
:24:59. > :25:04.Government is guarnteeing it. Now there were howls of outrage from
:25:05. > :25:07.either side of the sectarian divide today in Northern Ireland. After
:25:08. > :25:10.suggestions from the senior legal official that instead of
:25:11. > :25:14.investigating and prosecuting the police and the rest of the law
:25:15. > :25:19.machine draw a veil over some pretty hidious crimes. John larrikin the
:25:20. > :25:28.Attorney General in Belfast believes the police should give inquiry over
:25:29. > :25:34.some Should give up inquiries over some of the most atrocious crimes in
:25:35. > :25:39.the troubles. The Good Friday Agreement signed in
:25:40. > :25:43.1998 the agreement led to a number of provisions on historical
:25:44. > :25:46.killings. When paramilitary weapons were decommissioned, forensic
:25:47. > :25:51.evidence gathered couldn't legally be used in prosecutions. Nor could
:25:52. > :25:55.it be used when the IRA assisted the authorities to find the bodies of
:25:56. > :25:59.some of the disappeared. What's more, it meant that the maximum
:26:00. > :26:05.sentence that could be given to members of paramilitaries, who were
:26:06. > :26:11.prosecuted for pre-1998 offence, was just two years, even more murder.
:26:12. > :26:15.This, according to Mr Larkin makes it almost impossible to solve many
:26:16. > :26:18.of the crimes. He thinks the interests of peace would be better
:26:19. > :26:23.served by drawing a line under it all. Politicians on both sides and
:26:24. > :26:28.victims' relatives have lined up to criticise the proposal. Calling it
:26:29. > :26:32.dangerous and disgusting. Proving that even 15 years after the
:26:33. > :26:39.agreement, Northern Ireland's attempts to come to terms with its
:26:40. > :26:47.toxic past remain far from resolved. In Belfast now is the son of the
:26:48. > :26:52.lisenceor pat Finucane murdered by loyalist paramilitaries in 1989.
:26:53. > :26:56.What do you make of the proposal from the Attorney General? I'm
:26:57. > :26:59.slightly surprised that the Attorney General has sought fit to enter this
:27:00. > :27:04.debate so publicly, without any prompting. And from what it seems
:27:05. > :27:09.without any consultation with any political party or victims' group. I
:27:10. > :27:12.find it very surprising that he offers no alternative and seems to
:27:13. > :27:17.make an arbitary suggestion that not only should there be no prosecutions
:27:18. > :27:20.and that there should be no legal redress for families and victims to
:27:21. > :27:26.gain an explanation or the truth as to what happened to their loved
:27:27. > :27:32.ones. He He seems to be suggesting it as a practical course of action
:27:33. > :27:35.rather than an ethically or morally desirable course of events. You
:27:36. > :27:38.accept it will be immensely expensive and there is a law of
:27:39. > :27:44.diminishing returns in these inquiries? Well, the justifiable
:27:45. > :27:50.calls for inquiries is one thing, but I don't agree with Mr Larkin and
:27:51. > :27:55.I think what is glaring by its absence is the absence of any
:27:56. > :27:59.credible material put forward. He says perhaps families should have
:28:00. > :28:05.greater access to documents. That is incredible, and Mr Larkin will be
:28:06. > :28:09.well aware of many victims' campaigns, especially my family we
:28:10. > :28:14.have campaigned for 25 years, we have had it onfirmed by the Prime
:28:15. > :28:20.Minister that there was conillusion in the murder of my father. Without
:28:21. > :28:23.the calls for the public inquiry I don't think they would have been
:28:24. > :28:31.pressurise today provide anything close to the truth and other
:28:32. > :28:36.families feel the people. Same. -- the same. If it is a maximum of two
:28:37. > :28:40.years in prison is it worth to pursue the issue? He's trying to
:28:41. > :28:44.equate the standard to secure a criminal conviction. The two-year
:28:45. > :28:48.sentence that would follow with the inquest and inquiry system. What I
:28:49. > :28:52.find very insulting is in his interview he seems to say that to do
:28:53. > :28:56.away with inquests is to strike some sort of balance with doing away with
:28:57. > :29:00.criminal prosecutions. To me that is entering into the political arena
:29:01. > :29:03.and making a very charged comment, it is not for the role of the
:29:04. > :29:10.Attorney-General. It is possible also isn't it though that mechanisms
:29:11. > :29:13.can be pursued other than legal mechanisms through the courts and
:29:14. > :29:17.the police, there is a greater possibility of some sort of
:29:18. > :29:22.reconciliation at the end of it? I agree with that, but the sad fact is
:29:23. > :29:27.that there doesn't appear to be any political will for that to happen.
:29:28. > :29:30.The debate today again compounds and highlights the fact that political
:29:31. > :29:34.parties here, and more importantly the British and Irish Governments
:29:35. > :29:40.have yet to deal with this issue in a serious manner. And if they are
:29:41. > :29:45.committed to healing our past, then they will let families see files,
:29:46. > :29:49.they will let them have a truth. They will allow them to challenge
:29:50. > :29:52.the narrative, which invariably turns out to be a false one put
:29:53. > :29:59.forward by the state. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us
:30:00. > :30:02.thank you. Now the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, had a bit of fun at Prime
:30:03. > :30:08.Minister's Questions today by claiming that even David Cameron's
:30:09. > :30:12.friends now think he's a loser. Spots and kettles thought d -- pots
:30:13. > :30:17.and kettles thought the Conservatives. Are things changing,
:30:18. > :30:24.Ed Miliband was written off as too awkward, too brainy, too much a
:30:25. > :30:28.union man to be a winner. Then then he caught the public mood on the
:30:29. > :30:35.cost of living and made his claim to be able to delay energy prices. Does
:30:36. > :30:39.it add up to a coherent hold we will discuss that in a moment. We invited
:30:40. > :30:46.the political editor of the New Statesman to tell us what he thinks.
:30:47. > :30:53.Not every leader's name becomes an "ism", thatcherism is progress, and
:30:54. > :30:59.Blairism was achieving social justice and harnessing markets. Next
:31:00. > :31:07.to those, David Cameron, John Major look like also-rans. Ed Miliband is
:31:08. > :31:09.the unlikely leader, smuggled in by trade union bosses, not really
:31:10. > :31:18.knowing what to do and short-term tactics. Over the summer his opinion
:31:19. > :31:24.pole poll started to shrink. What was Labour going to do next, where
:31:25. > :31:27.was the fightback. Meanwhile in this cafe in North London, Ed Miliband
:31:28. > :31:30.and his advisers were working on a speech and idea that would turn his
:31:31. > :31:35.fortunes around. If we win that election in 2015 the next Labour
:31:36. > :31:45.Government will freeze gas and electricity prices until the start
:31:46. > :31:50.of 2017. That was portrayed by sceptics as a mad socialist lung
:31:51. > :31:54.back to the 1970s. But the price freeze was a hit. The Tories were
:31:55. > :31:58.wrong-footed, the terms of economic debate shifted to the cost of
:31:59. > :32:02.living. Terrain where Ed Miliband had something memorable to say and
:32:03. > :32:05.David Cameron didn't. Ed's friends say he has always been
:32:06. > :32:10.underestimated, but there was plan all along. They say he isn't
:32:11. > :32:13.bothered by the volatility of the news agenda, the froth, because he
:32:14. > :32:16.has a deeper and strategic understanding of what is wrong with
:32:17. > :32:21.Britain and what needs to be done about it. Think of it like the
:32:22. > :32:24.espresso at the bottom of this cappuccino, a double shot of
:32:25. > :32:33.intellectual rigour underneath the foam. A doctrine and programme for
:32:34. > :32:37.Government they called Miliband-ism. It takes the long view of history,
:32:38. > :32:43.it charts the story of British politics since the Second World War,
:32:44. > :32:47.as a series of grand ideolgical arcs. These campaign posters at the
:32:48. > :32:52.people's history museum in Manchester show the consensus after
:32:53. > :32:56.1945, that Government as job was to build and provide and the state was
:32:57. > :33:00.on your side. That fell apart in the 1970s a time of stagnation and
:33:01. > :33:06.division. Until Thatcher made her breakthrough. A Government of
:33:07. > :33:10.practical measures. In pursuit of mobile causes. For much of the
:33:11. > :33:15.Labour Party Blairism was a surrender to the spirit of the
:33:16. > :33:19.1980s, it idolised the big business in thestitious it taxed and spent
:33:20. > :33:24.more but never dealt with the root causes of inequality. Along comes
:33:25. > :33:28.the financial crisis that shows what turbo-capitalism runs amock. We are
:33:29. > :33:31.back in the 1970s where no-one is winning and everything is up for
:33:32. > :33:34.grabs. The dark blue line is the cost of
:33:35. > :33:49.living The light blue is the rise in wages,
:33:50. > :33:55.and the gap between is the cost of living. Ed has been accused of
:33:56. > :34:01.jargon. Are you on the side of the wealth-creators or the producers or
:34:02. > :34:07.the creditors. The coauthors of the document says there is a simplicity
:34:08. > :34:13.of the market at the core. Ed was keen we use the speeches to develop
:34:14. > :34:16.an argument. The producer speech was a controversy getting at the heart
:34:17. > :34:20.of something we thought was wrong about the way our economy worked.
:34:21. > :34:25.The one-nation speech was setting out a philosophy, if you like, an
:34:26. > :34:29.approach to governing and economic society and politics. And this year
:34:30. > :34:32.with our energy price freeze and other announcements you saw some of
:34:33. > :34:37.the policy flesh being put on the bones of that vision. So I think you
:34:38. > :34:41.can see a sequence there. If Ed is right, economic recovery won't help
:34:42. > :34:46.the Tories because the proceeds of growth won't trickle down into
:34:47. > :34:49.voters' pockets. New Labour was fine as a compromise with British
:34:50. > :34:55.capitalism when the economy was working for the majority. But it
:34:56. > :34:59.isn't any more. Ed Miliband sees an opportunity to have a new populisim
:35:00. > :35:04.of the left. Fixing broken markets and protecting consumers from
:35:05. > :35:07.corporate greed. It isn't just nostalgia for the socialism of old.
:35:08. > :35:10.It is a belief that the traditions of the left can still inspire
:35:11. > :35:18.mainstream politics in the 21st century. Miliband-ism doesn't roll
:35:19. > :35:22.off the tongue, but if Labour win the next election it could be the
:35:23. > :35:34.idea that governs Britain. I have my guests with me.
:35:35. > :35:37.Do you reckon Miliband-ism exists? It is never existing until it
:35:38. > :35:42.embodies an action. After watching the film I longed for the days when
:35:43. > :35:46.Ed Miliband was vague. The clearer gets the more I don't like him.
:35:47. > :35:51.There are two propositions that he makes. The first of which is the
:35:52. > :35:54.2008 marks a major departure, but the crash means we have entered a
:35:55. > :35:58.new era of history. The second proposition that follows from that
:35:59. > :36:04.is therefore that license is more left-wing politics in Britain. They
:36:05. > :36:10.are both empierically false. That we haven't interered a new tran --
:36:11. > :36:15.entered a new transition phase and the future doesn't belong to the
:36:16. > :36:18.left? When there is a transition point everybody believes the future
:36:19. > :36:22.belongs to them. Nobody says we have had a major transition and everybody
:36:23. > :36:28.is moving away from me! It is the fantasy of the left that we lift in
:36:29. > :36:31.a left-wing country has come true because of the failure of
:36:32. > :36:38.capitalism. It is a fantasy. I question the idea that the financial
:36:39. > :36:45.crisis in 2007/08 wasn't the cattism, if you -- cat cliff. The
:36:46. > :36:50.entire conversation in politics was things can't go back to the way they
:36:51. > :36:54.were. At the root of that was an ideology about deregulation and
:36:55. > :36:57.markets gone wrong. Why I would agree is Labour had a bit of a shock
:36:58. > :37:01.thinking that naturally if something had gone wrong with markets that
:37:02. > :37:05.meant people would suddenly swing for the left. They were surprised
:37:06. > :37:13.when UKIP turned out to be the insurgent force in British politics.
:37:14. > :37:17.For card-carrying Milibandites were here to defend his position, they
:37:18. > :37:20.would say it is not about the old left but a new populisim which can
:37:21. > :37:25.engage with the failure of markets and speak on behalf of ordinary
:37:26. > :37:29.people Will Ed Miliband be the Prime Minister after the next election? It
:37:30. > :37:31.is very likely that he will be in a Government, even if it is a
:37:32. > :37:34.Government of coalition, just because of the way the numbers
:37:35. > :37:42.through the electoral system pan out. I would say it is also possible
:37:43. > :37:49.that he won't. What I'm not sure is clear is that... He will and he
:37:50. > :37:53.won't? Let me explain that. Both are true claim Ultimately it is very
:37:54. > :37:57.hard to call, because a bunch of Conservative voters are going to
:37:58. > :38:01.vote for UKIP. A bunch of Liberal Democrat refugees will vote Labour.
:38:02. > :38:04.That means actually Ed could end up in Downing Street by accident. What
:38:05. > :38:10.I'm not sure the arguments that I have outlined will be the ideas that
:38:11. > :38:15.people will rally behind and march. This is precisely the problem, this
:38:16. > :38:20.is a man more associated with wanting an "ism" and wonky ideas
:38:21. > :38:25.than he is with governing? I think that is not a bad criticism of what
:38:26. > :38:29.the Miliband project has been about. What he would say in defence is
:38:30. > :38:32.unless you spend this time in opposition completely re-thinking
:38:33. > :38:38.what you had and what went wrong under the last Government. You will
:38:39. > :38:43.never persuade people to bring you back. The really cogent part of the
:38:44. > :38:53.Ed Miliband team is they lost that time. There was a big change, it
:38:54. > :38:57.took place after 2008. That question which is an existential question for
:38:58. > :38:59.the left, what are you for if you haven't money for the social
:39:00. > :39:05.programmes, it hasn't begun to answer. If you look at health, what
:39:06. > :39:09.beyond the sentimental agonies of Andy Burnham does the Labour Party
:39:10. > :39:17.offer. We don't know. You could write a PhD thesis about their
:39:18. > :39:21.thinking on legislation, crime. We have an absence. You can't suggest
:39:22. > :39:24.there is any ideolgical position here, if we have no guidance for
:39:25. > :39:28.what the Labour Party would do on any of those things and no notion of
:39:29. > :39:34.how it would govern the state when there was no money. If you want a
:39:35. > :39:40.apockal change that is it, the Labour Party is miles away from
:39:41. > :39:45.knowing what it wants. They are trying to erect a tripod and it is
:39:46. > :39:48.how you reform the state. They will say that is not what people are
:39:49. > :39:53.worrying about right now. They are worried about. Schools, hospitals,
:39:54. > :39:57.crime, welfare. I think they will find... What they don't want is an
:39:58. > :40:03.ideolgical crow side from the Michael Gove point of view to tear
:40:04. > :40:06.it up and start again. They want a decent well-funded school at the end
:40:07. > :40:10.of their street and services that will work and money in their pocket.
:40:11. > :40:14.What scares people on the left is not losing but winning. If you don't
:40:15. > :40:17.have guidance on what you will do on critical things then it will be a
:40:18. > :40:20.very difficult period in Government. This will be the question of fact
:40:21. > :40:24.which the left confronts if it were to come into Government. Which is it
:40:25. > :40:29.doesn't have great deal of money. It has to reform the state. It has
:40:30. > :40:32.foresworn every kind of reform of the state that it used to do in the
:40:33. > :40:36.old carnation under Tony Blair. What does it have in its place and it
:40:37. > :40:39.doesn't have the answer. That is the central question that the left will
:40:40. > :40:43.face. I think there's probably a number of people in the Conservative
:40:44. > :40:48.benches who think if they don't know what they are doing next it might
:40:49. > :40:51.not be a bad thing to let Labour sneak in, and reveal themselves as
:40:52. > :40:54.not having this programme and the whole thing fall apart. This
:40:55. > :40:59.wouldn't be a bad one for the Conservatives to lose. The missing
:41:00. > :41:03.plank of this, Miliband-ism isn't how you reform the state. What Ed
:41:04. > :41:07.would say that is not what voters are concerned about. We begin with
:41:08. > :41:14.the ideas and then we roll it out as a programme. Essentially the kind of
:41:15. > :41:20.policy you get is a few labour market economies sit in a room and
:41:21. > :41:24.go capitalism is fine but we wish you were nicer. The energy price
:41:25. > :41:27.freeze is a good example. Of course we want prices lower rather than
:41:28. > :41:31.higher, it doesn't seem to get beyond that level of banality. You
:41:32. > :41:36.end up with a policy that is commanding something into existence.
:41:37. > :41:41.In fairness they have a policy to reform the energy market, I can't
:41:42. > :41:44.disagree with what you said. That didn't last long. Thank you very
:41:45. > :41:51.much both of you. There are few enough people in the world who can
:41:52. > :41:56.boast of having sold run moneys of millions of books. John Grisham,
:41:57. > :42:01.author of one thriller after another can make that claim. His website
:42:02. > :42:06.claims with no false modesty that his first novel A Time To Kill is
:42:07. > :42:13.one of the most popular novels of our time. The next offering is Sick
:42:14. > :42:22.more Row. It has just been published here. Was it always your intention
:42:23. > :42:26.to revisit Jake Brigginss and Clanton? I think so, I didn't know
:42:27. > :42:29.when. Everything is driven by a story, you have to have a story
:42:30. > :42:33.before you write a book. For many years I thought about a sequel or
:42:34. > :42:37.another visit back to Clinton. Another visit to all those
:42:38. > :42:41.characters but there was no story. So it took a while to get the story.
:42:42. > :42:44.You like writing about the south because that is where you come from?
:42:45. > :42:56.I would much rather write about the south. Because it is what I know, it
:42:57. > :43:03.is easier at times. The stories are richer. More layered. The characters
:43:04. > :43:13.are far more fun to write about. On On the question of race, in that
:43:14. > :43:18.territory, was there still a huge race issue when you were there as a
:43:19. > :43:29.young man? I struggled with racism every day. Because the way I was
:43:30. > :43:33.raised. I was raised in an all-white world in Mississippi. We thought it
:43:34. > :43:39.would always be white. What were your parents like about that? They
:43:40. > :43:50.were wonderful people, but not the least bit tolerant towards black
:43:51. > :43:57.people. That's my DNA and the way I was raised. It took a long time to
:43:58. > :44:10.become more tolerant. Is there any way you think that A Time To Kill
:44:11. > :44:15.and even this book is about alonement? For me, for Jake. For the
:44:16. > :44:21.attitudes you were raised with? Maybe, because I'm Jake. The book
:44:22. > :44:28.was very autobiograical, a lot of white people of my generation from
:44:29. > :44:40.the Deep South still struggle with racism. And trying to overcome it.
:44:41. > :44:51.We're all-racist because we refer our race and we are quick to condemn
:44:52. > :44:56.others, we are we don't want to look at life through coloured glasses. It
:44:57. > :45:05.is difficult for me many times. And how does that manifest itself? Well,
:45:06. > :45:14.stereotype, you expect certain things out of certain people. You
:45:15. > :45:19.see a gruesome crime, you see the suspects arrested, and they are two
:45:20. > :45:26.black punks who killed a white businessman. And you think they are
:45:27. > :45:35.guilty, you know, there is a level of tremendous dislike, you know.
:45:36. > :45:39.Then you get passed that -- past that, you think maybe they are
:45:40. > :45:41.innocent, the cops have got the wrong people. Maybe you should try
:45:42. > :45:45.to understand where they came from, they probably never had a chance,
:45:46. > :45:49.they were probably born on the streets. Raised on the streets,
:45:50. > :45:57.probably never were taught right from wrong. Your initial reaction is
:45:58. > :46:02.to react negatively. To many situations. And then you have to
:46:03. > :46:06.work through it. Do you think that the election and re-election of
:46:07. > :46:13.President Obama has fundamentally changed things for black people? I
:46:14. > :46:23.don't know. It's change things for black people because there is such
:46:24. > :46:26.an enormous sense of pride and almost disbelief on the part of most
:46:27. > :46:30.black folks when he got elected, they never thought it would happen.
:46:31. > :46:39.Nobody thought it would happen ten years ago. The downside is a lot of
:46:40. > :46:41.black people thought that change would finally arrive at a certain
:46:42. > :46:45.point and change would happen overnight. But the expectations were
:46:46. > :46:49.so high that no-one could ever achieve those expectations. Thank
:46:50. > :46:54.you very much. My pleasure, always fun.
:46:55. > :47:00.You can see a longer version of our interview on our YouTube channel.
:47:01. > :47:05.That is it for tonight, unconfined joy in Hull over the news it has
:47:06. > :47:08.been named City of Culture. We asked the Hull photographic society why?
:47:09. > :47:34.They showed us. # Skies are blue
:47:35. > :47:44.# Dreams come through # While I'm holding you
:47:45. > :47:50.# In