:00:00. > :00:13.So, peace in our time - or is it? As all those involved claim the deal
:00:14. > :00:16.on Iran's nuclear programme a triumph, So, peace in our time - or
:00:17. > :00:19.is it? As all those involved claim the deal
:00:20. > :00:20.on Iran's nuclear programme a triumph, Israel cries "sell-out".
:00:21. > :00:23.Who is right? Payday loan companies are to have
:00:24. > :00:26.their wings clipped, but how many of their clients realise the problems
:00:27. > :00:30.they are storing up for the future just by becoming a customer? I think
:00:31. > :00:34.people would be very shocked if they knew getting a payday loan now and
:00:35. > :00:38.paying it immediately next month afterwards could jacket their
:00:39. > :00:40.ability to get a mortgage three, four, five, years in the future. We
:00:41. > :00:46.put that to the business secretary and ask him too about how the
:00:47. > :00:51.government could have miscalculated so badly on the Co-Op bank. How a
:00:52. > :01:00.cult of death in Mexico has led to the revival of exorcisms.
:01:01. > :01:04.And the singer Will Young is here to talk about the use, or misuse, n the
:01:05. > :01:17.playground. According to the French Foreign
:01:18. > :01:21.Minister, Iran could see some of the sanctions it has suffered being
:01:22. > :01:25.lifted as early as next month after the deal struck in Geneva at the
:01:26. > :01:29.weekend. William Hague seems to think it will be the new year, but
:01:30. > :01:34.it definitely looks it will happen, much to the fury of the Israelis who
:01:35. > :01:37.think the rest of the world has been duped by a nation still bent on
:01:38. > :01:45.developing nuclear weapons. There is also some unhappiness among
:01:46. > :01:52.legislators in Washington. It is not the kind of welcome
:01:53. > :02:00.William Hague usually gets on his way back in London, but in Iranian,
:02:01. > :02:07.what happened in Geneva triggered an outpouring of relief. He is perhaps
:02:08. > :02:14.in a unique position, he is the most popular Iranian diplomat in the past
:02:15. > :02:18.34 years, because he has the backing of Iran's supreme leader, and he is
:02:19. > :02:26.popular amongst the youth, among the very people who protested against
:02:27. > :02:28.the system. For President Rouhani trying to end
:02:29. > :02:34.the country's isolation, it was vital to present it as a victory. So
:02:35. > :02:37.he welcomed relatives of Iran's assassinated nuclear scientists,
:02:38. > :02:45.telling them that their sacrifice had made the Geneva deal possible.
:02:46. > :02:48.From the Foreign Minister, too, an upbeat message. The current
:02:49. > :02:56.agreement, the current plan of action, as we call it, in t distinct
:02:57. > :03:02.places, has a very clear reference to the fact that Iranian enrichment
:03:03. > :03:08.programme will continue, and will be a part of any agreement, now and in
:03:09. > :03:13.the future. Iran says the deal enshrines its
:03:14. > :03:21.right to enrich uranium, and it eases sanctions to the ctions to the
:03:22. > :03:27.tune of $6 billion or $7 billion. They pay quite a price: they freeze
:03:28. > :03:31.their uranium enrichment. Crucially, their stockpile of more highly
:03:32. > :03:35.enriched uranium will be diluted, and there will be more international
:03:36. > :03:39.inspections. Iran has clearly given the most away
:03:40. > :03:42.here. This is a serious freeze on most of Iran's nuclear capabilities,
:03:43. > :03:46.putting it further away from a bomb. It is getting comparatively little
:03:47. > :03:50.in sanctions relief, it is still losing about three times more in
:03:51. > :03:54.foregone oil revenue than it is getting in relief, and the main
:03:55. > :03:59.thing Iran has received here is a qualified right to enrich uranium -
:04:00. > :04:01.but that's about it. Israel's Prime Minister,
:04:02. > :04:07.predictably, perhaps, Haslam Belfasted the deal. But the other
:04:08. > :04:12.big sceptic in the Saudi Arabia is taking more of a wait-and-see
:04:13. > :04:16.attitude. Secretary William Hague. Back in London, William Hague
:04:17. > :04:20.underlined the diplomatic mountain that remains to be climbed. The
:04:21. > :04:23.agreement sets out the elements of a comprehensive solution which we
:04:24. > :04:28.would aim to conclude within one year. The plan of action envisages a
:04:29. > :04:32.mutually defined enrichment programme with agreed parameters and
:04:33. > :04:34.limits but only as a part of a comprehensive agreement where
:04:35. > :04:39.nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:04:40. > :04:48.And while that negotiation goes on, nagging doubts will remain, about
:04:49. > :04:51.places like this, the Parchin military complex. Intelligence says
:04:52. > :04:55.nuclear weapons research has taken place here, but it's not covered by
:04:56. > :04:59.yesterday's deal. And images that will disturb some
:05:00. > :05:07.Iranians, too, of shaking hands with the old enemy, while the talking
:05:08. > :05:17.goes on and most sanctioning remain. Did you see Mr Zarif shaking hands
:05:18. > :05:19.with John Kerry. That is unprecedented. It shows Iran is
:05:20. > :05:25.investing in something in the long-term. I think Iran is trying to
:05:26. > :05:28.- Iran has tried to invest in a comprehensive deal after the six
:05:29. > :05:34.months; that's why it has conceded to such a deal that only allows
:05:35. > :05:37.limited sanctions. This is a holding arrangement, a leap much faith,
:05:38. > :05:42.while the really difficult details are being worked out in the months
:05:43. > :05:46.ahead - March could still -- much could still go wrong. We know the
:05:47. > :05:50.way was paved for it by secret diplomacy between America and Iran,
:05:51. > :05:56.and that relationship will prove critical next year as they push
:05:57. > :06:00.towards the comprehensive deal. If Iran seizes this opportunity, and
:06:01. > :06:04.chooses to join the global community, then we can begin to chip
:06:05. > :06:08.away at the mistrust that has existed for many, many years between
:06:09. > :06:12.our two nations. None of that is going to be easy,
:06:13. > :06:16.huge challenges remain, but we cannot close the door on diplomacy;
:06:17. > :06:19.and we cannot rule out peaceful solutions to the world's problems.
:06:20. > :06:25.We cannot commit ourselves to an endless cycle of conflict. So the
:06:26. > :06:30.Geneva talks ended with success, and they may even have opened the door
:06:31. > :06:34.to a new relationship, one that could wash away many of the
:06:35. > :06:37.conassistants of Middle East politics.
:06:38. > :06:43.-- constants of Middle East politics. The Israeli government is
:06:44. > :06:47.one of the most vocal opponents of the deal. Daniel Taub, the Israeli
:06:48. > :06:50.ambassador to the UK, is here. Why are you saying the Iranians have
:06:51. > :06:55.given up nothing when they clearly have? We are very, very concerned
:06:56. > :06:58.about this deal. The fact is what we are being presented with is a deal
:06:59. > :07:01.that doesn't require Iran to dismantle a single one of its
:07:02. > :07:06.centrifuges, not even the most advanced ones, it doesn't require it
:07:07. > :07:09.to dismantle a single aspect of its military programme, doesn't require
:07:10. > :07:13.it to dismantle a single aspect of the plutonium reactor. There were
:07:14. > :07:16.10,000 centrifuges spinning the day before this agreement; they're going
:07:17. > :07:19.to be spinning the day after this agreement. It gives us very serious
:07:20. > :07:24.cause for concern. But the question of the amount of enriched uranium,
:07:25. > :07:28.the level to which it is enriched, the development of the heavy water
:07:29. > :07:33.plant, these sort of things, they are concessions by the Iranians, are
:07:34. > :07:36.not they? I don't think we see here concessions of the nature that
:07:37. > :07:39.convince us that, in six months' time we're going to be further away
:07:40. > :07:43.from a nuclear weapon. But it is not true, as your Prime Minister claims,
:07:44. > :07:46.that they have given nothing, they clearly have given something up? On
:07:47. > :07:49.balance, this is an agreement, and you saw the people cheering in the
:07:50. > :07:52.street, you know, when the negotiators came home, and that
:07:53. > :07:58.really does raise questions, why is it that such major concessions are
:07:59. > :08:03.regarded as such a big victory? It is not everybody is cheering. The
:08:04. > :08:09.negotiators are cheering, and the politicians returning to the West
:08:10. > :08:11.ring, and the politicians returning to the West are -- Maybe people do
:08:12. > :08:15.want to avoid confrontation, and perhaps there's a risk in that. As
:08:16. > :08:20.you get closer to our region, then you see the concern rises, but for
:08:21. > :08:23.many of our neighbours as well. We don't often agree, we're thinking
:08:24. > :08:28.not only about what Iran might do in the future, but we are looking at
:08:29. > :08:32.what they are doing today: they are supporting Hezbollah, helping
:08:33. > :08:36.terror, and we're thinking - And making concessions on nuclear
:08:37. > :08:39.weapons. The question isn't whether they're making concessions, the
:08:40. > :08:42.question is are we on track to stop Iran from getting a nuclear bomb?
:08:43. > :08:45.That is what Britain has said it's committed to, that is what the
:08:46. > :08:49.United States is committed to, and that is what we want to see happen.
:08:50. > :08:51.You don't think this deal can last? The question isn't whether this
:08:52. > :08:55.particular deal can last. The question is are arrangements in
:08:56. > :08:58.place to stop Iran becoming a nuclear power, to having a nuclear
:08:59. > :09:02.bomb? That's what we want to see happen. We're in full agreement.
:09:03. > :09:07.What would have satisfied you, then? At the moment, what we want to see
:09:08. > :09:10.is an agreement or an arrangement that moves us towards that. It makes
:09:11. > :09:13.it quite clear we want to see an arrangement that stops Iran from
:09:14. > :09:17.having the capacity to develop a nuclear weapon. That means actually
:09:18. > :09:20.taking out, dismantling the infrastructure. The trouble with
:09:21. > :09:24.this agreement is really the entire machinery, the entire machinery
:09:25. > :09:29.remains in place. So the rest of the world appears to be misguided,
:09:30. > :09:33.you're the only ones who are right. Has it occurred to you that the
:09:34. > :09:38.reasons the Americans went behind your backs and had private talks
:09:39. > :09:43.with the Iranians, an unprecedented event, more or less, might be
:09:44. > :09:46.because they recognise too that you're the problem here? The fact is
:09:47. > :09:49.there can definitely be differences of opinion here, but I certainly
:09:50. > :09:52.think the closer you get to the region, the more reason we have for
:09:53. > :09:57.concern. Yes, attention is focused on this. We are the ones who do hear
:09:58. > :10:03.the supreme leader calling for our destruction. Just this week, the
:10:04. > :10:07.supreme leader described us as a rabid dog that is destined for
:10:08. > :10:11.destruction, and maybe that focuses our attention, but at the end of the
:10:12. > :10:13.day, we want the same thing that the United States wants, that Britain
:10:14. > :10:17.wants, and that is to stop Iran getting a nuclear weapon. This team
:10:18. > :10:23.you're sending to Washington, what is their mission? Their mission is
:10:24. > :10:27.to make sure we and the United States are co-ordinated in having
:10:28. > :10:31.the goals we have in common. The question is whether this is a deal
:10:32. > :10:35.that takes us two steps forwards. We're not sure that it does. We need
:10:36. > :10:38.to work together to make sure at the end of this deal - You didn't know
:10:39. > :10:41.what the United States was discussing with Iran. I am not going
:10:42. > :10:45.to talk about what we did or didn't know. What we know at the moment is
:10:46. > :10:47.that we have a common goal, and we have to work together to make it
:10:48. > :10:52.happen. Do you think you can persuade the Americans this is a
:10:53. > :10:56.deal not worth continuing with? I don't think that that is our goal.
:10:57. > :11:00.Our goal is not to try to undermine something, our goal is to work
:11:01. > :11:04.together to get something that actually works. The fact is, we are
:11:05. > :11:07.concerned, we are concerned because everything, or pretty much
:11:08. > :11:10.everything that we know about the nuclear programme in Iran today is
:11:11. > :11:17.something that was hidden from the West for years by Iran. The fact is,
:11:18. > :11:22.we only know about Natanz precisely because these things are discovered.
:11:23. > :11:26.We are concerned about going into a process without our eyes being very
:11:27. > :11:29.wide open. We don't know a great deal about the Israeli nuclear
:11:30. > :11:32.programme, do we? What we know is that this is a process that hasn't
:11:33. > :11:35.changed for decades it, hasn't threatened anybody else in the
:11:36. > :11:41.reemingon, it hasn't stopped our neighbours from trying to attack us
:11:42. > :11:44.again and again, and this is a different situation to a situation
:11:45. > :11:47.like the situation with Iran, a country which at the moment is
:11:48. > :11:50.arming terrorists, is threatening to wipe neighbours off the map, and, of
:11:51. > :11:55.course, this isn't an Israeli demand, what we are talking about is
:11:56. > :11:57.a demand which comes from the United Nations - six United Nations
:11:58. > :12:00.Security Council resolutions. That is really what we would like to see
:12:01. > :12:04.implemented. Ambassador, thank you. Not at all.
:12:05. > :12:09.Later in the programme: the singer Will Young on the use, or misuse,
:12:10. > :12:13.Not at all. ??T
:12:14. > :12:16.Now, those nice people who popped up on high streets across the country
:12:17. > :12:20.telling us how keen they are to lend us money are going to have to run
:12:21. > :12:24.along on slightly smaller profits. The government is getting the
:12:25. > :12:27.financial regulator to put a cap on what they can charge. It is only a
:12:28. > :12:31.matter of weeks since the regulator wouldn't have any truck with the
:12:32. > :12:36.idea because it considered it very intrusive. People who have been
:12:37. > :12:41.stung by so-called payday loans, which pay interest at 365 per cent
:12:42. > :12:44.or so, may be relieved, but they will be less relieved to hear
:12:45. > :12:48.evidence we've gathered at Newsnight about the harm they can do to your
:12:49. > :12:52.chances of getting a mortgage - more than 1 mortgage brokers have told us
:12:53. > :13:01.they have had clients with payday loans turned down for a mortgage.
:13:02. > :13:06.Andy Verity reports. If you borrow a tenner from Wonga
:13:07. > :13:11.now, next month, you will may back more than ?20. You will pay interest
:13:12. > :13:17.at 365 per cent, more than 50 times the price of other loans. But that
:13:18. > :13:25.hasn't been enough to put off 2 million payday loan customers hungry
:13:26. > :13:31.for instant credit. The Wonga economy is one of the
:13:32. > :13:37.worst symbols we have of the cost-of-listening crisis. Labour has
:13:38. > :13:43.-- The cost of living crisis. Labour has gone down hard on payday loans.
:13:44. > :13:48.Government whips ensured it was voted down. The coalition has told
:13:49. > :13:53.the Financial Conduct Authority to intervene in the market and regulate
:13:54. > :13:58.costs. We are going to have a cap on the total cost of credit. We're
:13:59. > :14:02.going to look at the whole package, to look at the arrangement and
:14:03. > :14:05.penalty fees. This is about having a banking system that works for
:14:06. > :14:09.hard-working people, make sure that some of the outrageous fees you see,
:14:10. > :14:12.and some of the absolutely unacceptable practices are dealt
:14:13. > :14:16.with, and it is all about the government being on the side of
:14:17. > :14:19.hard-working people. That surprised the industry, because the
:14:20. > :14:22.Competition Commission and the Financial Conduct Authority was
:14:23. > :14:25.supposed to be working out whether a cap was needed or not. By
:14:26. > :14:28.introducing a cap, as they have in Australia, the government has made
:14:29. > :14:31.up its mind to intervene and a market without waiting for official
:14:32. > :14:38.advice. If the objective is to drive out
:14:39. > :14:42.some rogue lenders, that has had success in Australia. What they've
:14:43. > :14:45.seen there is they have seen it hasn't driven down demand for loans
:14:46. > :14:48.so people are looking for other forms of credit and looking towards
:14:49. > :14:52.illegal lenders and that's something the government wants to be wary of.
:14:53. > :14:55.Capping the interest and fees on payday loans should help some
:14:56. > :14:59.borrowers, b cost isn't the only way that payday loans can affect your
:15:00. > :15:04.financial future. Newsnight has discovered strong evidence to show
:15:05. > :15:09.that having a payday loan won't do you any good when you're trying to
:15:10. > :15:13.apply for a mortgage. Most lenders don't say publicly they will turn
:15:14. > :15:16.down borrowers with payday loans, but the brokers who arrange half the
:15:17. > :15:24.country's mortgages are finding with most lenders, that is exactly what
:15:25. > :15:28.happens. Jonathan Clark a young couple who will taken out multiple
:15:29. > :15:34.payday loans. I was shocked at the response I got, because apart from -
:15:35. > :15:37.well, one or two said they could be acceptable subject to a credit score
:15:38. > :15:41.saying it probably won't work, but most were negative and say it would
:15:42. > :15:44.be an instant decline, regardless of their income, their conduct of their
:15:45. > :15:48.accounts, and everything else. These were major lenders? These are major
:15:49. > :15:55.high street lenders, yes. Nowhere do you say - Three weeks ago, Newsnight
:15:56. > :16:00.asked the chief operating officer of Wonga if he would warn prospective
:16:01. > :16:04.customers on their website. We will certainly have a look at that and I
:16:05. > :16:07.will come back to you. To find more evidence, we asked the trade
:16:08. > :16:12.publication Mortgage Strategy, to ask its readers, the brokers, what
:16:13. > :16:16.the lenders have been telling them. 289 of them came back, of those,
:16:17. > :16:18.nearly two thirds had had clients with payday loans turned down for a
:16:19. > :16:22.mortgage. When you take out a payday loan, it
:16:23. > :16:26.stays on your record for six years, so it can affect your mortgage
:16:27. > :16:30.application for that length of time. You would have thought customers who
:16:31. > :16:35.take out payday loans would want to know that before they take them out.
:16:36. > :16:38.Now, payday lenders pride themselves on their transparency, but do they
:16:39. > :16:42.say anything on their websites about that vitally important fact? I can't
:16:43. > :16:45.find anything. We put our evidence to the trade
:16:46. > :16:50.body that speaks for most payday lenders. We certainly need to look
:16:51. > :16:53.at this more closely, and we've asked the Council of Mortgage
:16:54. > :16:55.Lenders if they can give us any insight and the main credit
:16:56. > :16:58.reference agencies. That will help us understand the issue. Then we can
:16:59. > :17:02.work together as an industry to address it more widely. I think
:17:03. > :17:06.people would be very shocked if they knew getting a payday loan now and
:17:07. > :17:10.paying it immediately afterwards could impact their ability to get a
:17:11. > :17:13.mortgage five years in the future. I think people should be aware of
:17:14. > :17:18.that. No-one likes nasty surprises... We asked Wonga, that
:17:19. > :17:22.fun, transparent company, if they would do what they said and come
:17:23. > :17:27.back to us. They declined. It is clear to mortgage brokers that most
:17:28. > :17:36.mortgage lenders show that financially you're not lenders show
:17:37. > :17:39.that financially you're not coping. .
:17:40. > :17:48.Now the business secretary, Vince Cable, is with us. A week or so ago,
:17:49. > :17:51.the regulator thought the sort of measure that you are proposing now
:17:52. > :17:55.would have been very intrusive. Why did you change your minds? I don't
:17:56. > :17:59.think we ever thought it was very intrusive because we've already
:18:00. > :18:03.given the power to the regulator to introduce loan capping. This is the
:18:04. > :18:08.latest step in a whole series of actions to regulate this industry,
:18:09. > :18:11.and you may remember the Office of Fair Trading did a report as a
:18:12. > :18:15.result of which I think 25 companies in the industry left. We've now come
:18:16. > :18:22.forward with measures to regulate t advertising, the extent to which the
:18:23. > :18:28.lenders can go back to a person's account, and now we are introducing
:18:29. > :18:31.the cap on interest rates. Is this your departmental responsibility? It
:18:32. > :18:34.was until recent, but it's now moved into the Financial Conduct Authority
:18:35. > :18:40.which ultimately - Couldn't it be seen by many that this was your
:18:41. > :18:45.departmental responsibility until about a week ago? Yes, very
:18:46. > :18:48.recently. And it had to be moved out of your department and into the
:18:49. > :18:53.hands of George Osborne before anyone did anything. Come on. This
:18:54. > :18:59.move has been planned for two years. We introduced all the measures to
:19:00. > :19:02.regulate the industry, and cross-governmental agreement. I made
:19:03. > :19:06.it very clear we needed to listen to some of the backbenchers who were
:19:07. > :19:09.putting down amendments in parliament, engage with them, get
:19:10. > :19:13.more evidence, and as a result of the evidence that's recently come
:19:14. > :19:16.forward on the United States, and Australia, that having a cap on
:19:17. > :19:20.interest rates is practical, so there is a cross-government
:19:21. > :19:23.approach. When it was in your department, it wasn't considered
:19:24. > :19:26.necessary to do anything. We considered that there was a balance
:19:27. > :19:28.of risks. We commissioned a study from the University of Bristol that
:19:29. > :19:33.warned of some of the unintended consequences. Thank heavens for
:19:34. > :19:38.George Osborne coming to the protection of the consumer, hey? He
:19:39. > :19:40.has acted on behalf of both of us, because we were concerned that the
:19:41. > :19:44.balance of evidence now suggests that the merit - What has happened
:19:45. > :19:49.between last week and this week? Apart from the fact he has got the
:19:50. > :19:52.gig and you've lost it? I am less concerned about that than getting
:19:53. > :19:55.the right policy. What has happened over the last week, there is a lot
:19:56. > :19:59.of argument in parliament about the merits of the cap, you know, various
:20:00. > :20:03.people like the Archbishop of Canterbury are making this case. We
:20:04. > :20:08.looked at - we commissioned a study from Bristol which said there were
:20:09. > :20:10.advantages and disadvantages in an interest-rate cap. We were worried
:20:11. > :20:14.about the risks. We've looked at further evidence. A
:20:15. > :20:19.state like Florida, for example, has now found a way of looking not just
:20:20. > :20:23.at interest rates but at the various fees. The evidence that we were
:20:24. > :20:28.concerned about that this might encourage what I call the baseball
:20:29. > :20:30.bat brigade, I think if it is properly managed, doesn't have to
:20:31. > :20:34.happen. Looking at all the evidence, we've decided there is merit in
:20:35. > :20:39.having a cap. So the Archbishop of Canterbury swung the day, did he? He
:20:40. > :20:43.certainly had an influence. And George Osborne listened? We have all
:20:44. > :20:47.listened. Did you have anything to do with this decision? I was very
:20:48. > :20:49.much involved in it. I've been involved in it all the way through
:20:50. > :20:52.with Joe Swinson who is a minister in my department. But you couldn't
:20:53. > :20:55.do anything when you couldn't do anything when you were in charge. ?
:20:56. > :20:59.We had already taken all the key steps to regulate the industry. I go
:21:00. > :21:02.over them again if you like but there was the competition
:21:03. > :21:04.investigation, the move to regulate advertising, and the move to prevent
:21:05. > :21:10.companies abusing the payment system. Let me ask you about what
:21:11. > :21:13.Andy Verity discovered in that piece you saw with the mortgage brokers.
:21:14. > :21:15.Do you think it is fair that people in danger of their chances of
:21:16. > :21:18.getting a mortgage simply because they've taken out a payday loan,
:21:19. > :21:24.whether they have had any difficulty repaying it or not? Well, it isn't
:21:25. > :21:28.fair on the basis of the evidence you've just put forward. Now that
:21:29. > :21:33.the industry is being properly regulated, that should stop, and one
:21:34. > :21:38.of the key steps in the regulation is regulating advertising. So the
:21:39. > :21:44.advertising will require a company doing a payday loan to make it clear
:21:45. > :21:47.that borrowers have to seek debt advice, and if they seek debt
:21:48. > :21:49.advice, they will know the risk of imperilling their credit status.
:21:50. > :21:56.Should they have a health warning on them? That is what will effectively
:21:57. > :22:01.happen now with the advertising. Let's talk about the Co-Op bank. At
:22:02. > :22:06.the time that the Co-Op was being asked to take over the 631 branches
:22:07. > :22:11.of Lloyds, you were in favour of that? I was in favour of the general
:22:12. > :22:15.principle of Co-ops and mutuals having a bigger rolling in banking.
:22:16. > :22:21.There was no reason to assume at the time that it was invalid. If there
:22:22. > :22:24.had been any evidence of the kind of impropriety that's emerged, it would
:22:25. > :22:27.have come through the regulator, as a lot of people were claiming they
:22:28. > :22:32.knew it was a can of worms all along, but I don't think anybody had
:22:33. > :22:38.said so at the time e So you don't know? I didn't know, no, and I don't
:22:39. > :22:41.anybody did know, and the Treasury which conducted the discussions
:22:42. > :22:45.weren't aware of it. Do you happen to know how many times the Co-Op had
:22:46. > :22:48.meetings with Treasury ministers? I think there were a fairly
:22:49. > :22:52.substantial number. George Osborne said it was fewer than 30. I think
:22:53. > :22:57.it was around about that number, but I am not a Treasury minister. I was
:22:58. > :23:02.not involved. But they were having detailed discussions, certainly. So
:23:03. > :23:08.they were intimately involved in the decision? Yes, and perfectly
:23:09. > :23:14.sensibly and rightly. There was a European Commission ruling that
:23:15. > :23:18.Lloyds Bank had to sell off some of its branches; the Co-Op put
:23:19. > :23:21.themselves forward as a potential bidder, nobody initially had any
:23:22. > :23:26.reason to assume they couldn't handle it - they were a substantial
:23:27. > :23:30.branch network, reputation was good, as far as anybody was aware; the
:23:31. > :23:34.discussions proceeded, and eventually it emerged they couldn't
:23:35. > :23:38.handle it. So what we learn from that is that trying to lay all this
:23:39. > :23:41.off on the Labour Party is nonsense, really, because you guys were
:23:42. > :23:45.heavily involved in the whole project? I've never seen it as a
:23:46. > :23:50.party political issue. You may not... I've never seen it as a party
:23:51. > :23:54.political issue. As far as I was concerned, there is a general
:23:55. > :23:58.principle that, you know, the mutuals mutuals of have an important
:23:59. > :24:02.role in banking, the Co-Op bank had a good reputation. Had there been
:24:03. > :24:07.irregularities that were noticed, it would have come through the
:24:08. > :24:09.regulator, as far as I am aware they didn't signal that at the stage that
:24:10. > :24:15.the conversation with the Treasury took place. Thanks. Thank you. The
:24:16. > :24:21.news today that the England batsman Jonathan Trott has left Australia
:24:22. > :24:29.because of stress has eclipsed even the whooping, wailing, and gnashing
:24:30. > :24:36.of teeth that's followed followed this country's performance in the
:24:37. > :24:39.Ashes. This is what Andy Flowers said earlier. He has been a
:24:40. > :24:42.brilliant international batsman for England, and hopefully will continue
:24:43. > :24:46.to be a brilliant international batsman for England in the future,
:24:47. > :24:54.but he needs time away from this environment for a while. He needs
:24:55. > :24:58.time with his family; he needs time to reassess, and he needs to spend
:24:59. > :25:02.some quiet time with his family. There has been little but sympathy
:25:03. > :25:07.for Trotty, as he is inevitably known, which is a mark, perhaps of
:25:08. > :25:09.how attitudes to mental health improved. Are sports stars more
:25:10. > :25:12.vulnerable to these problems than the rest of us? Joining us to
:25:13. > :25:19.discuss this is the former professional footballer and chair of
:25:20. > :25:26.the Footballers' union, the PFA, Clarke Carr likely. Here is Sue
:25:27. > :25:30.Baker, director of Time For Change, a mental health charity. Do you
:25:31. > :25:37.think footballers and sportsmen are more vulnerable? Not at all. I think
:25:38. > :25:41.that they're equally as vulnerable as any other member of society, it
:25:42. > :25:46.is just that there's such an intense scrutiny on the industry of sport,
:25:47. > :25:50.and especially at the elite level, that when incidents do occur, people
:25:51. > :25:54.seem to be amazed because they see these idols as infallible and
:25:55. > :25:58.bastions of strength and fortitude. But it is a very exposed position if
:25:59. > :26:02.you're on a sports field of some kind with everybody in the crowd
:26:03. > :26:07.feeling they can have an attitude about you? It is an exposed
:26:08. > :26:13.position, and, yes, it's kind of like you've got to balance the
:26:14. > :26:17.circumstantial evidence around a person, and the fact that
:26:18. > :26:23.depression, let's say, is an illness in its own right, which is utterly -
:26:24. > :26:26.you know, it is got nothing to do with the circumstances that surround
:26:27. > :26:30.a person. So your suicide attempt was not, you think, specifically
:26:31. > :26:37.related to the fact that you were a sportsman? No, not at all. It is
:26:38. > :26:41.just as likely that I could have suffered depression and it would
:26:42. > :26:46.have been triggered had I been a postman, or a teacher, or in any
:26:47. > :26:50.other job in life, and also, this is not to say that sportspeople and
:26:51. > :26:56.their mental health issues are any more important than any other walk
:26:57. > :26:59.of life, you know? The stigma that surrounds mental health is still
:27:00. > :27:04.huge in general society. Sure, but it is got much better, hasn't it? It
:27:05. > :27:07.has got better but that doesn't mean we should be happy with the crumbs
:27:08. > :27:12.from the king's table. The support mechanisms that are in place still
:27:13. > :27:15.are not adequate enough to address the actual level of people who are
:27:16. > :27:21.suffering from mental health issues. Don't you think that attitudes have
:27:22. > :27:25.got better? They have, slowly, and surely we are starting to talk more
:27:26. > :27:33.openly about mental health problems, and Jonathan Trott today, and before
:27:34. > :27:38.him Michael Yardy, and Marcus Trescothick have helped up the
:27:39. > :27:41.sports world - and Clark. We have a long way before we can talk as
:27:42. > :27:45.openly about all mental health problems the same way we can
:27:46. > :27:49.physical health. The response was striking today when you saw the
:27:50. > :27:53.report, Jonathan Trott has gone home. No-one said anything other
:27:54. > :27:56.than, "Let's hope he's better soon," did they? Not really, I have to say,
:27:57. > :28:03.that's really encouraging that, actually, the world of cricket omall
:28:04. > :28:07.side has got behind him wishing him well. From what you know about the
:28:08. > :28:12.way in which mental health issues display themselves, there is
:28:13. > :28:18.something curiously gladiatorial about the batsman and the fast
:28:19. > :28:22.bowler. You're very, very exposed in a public forum, in that sort of
:28:23. > :28:26.challenge, are not you? Yes, if we look at stress, I mean, people talk
:28:27. > :28:31.about good stress and bad stress stress isn't all bad. People can
:28:32. > :28:35.thrive on stressful situations, and people at the top of their game, you
:28:36. > :28:36.know, are quite pumped up, and we are expecting people to perform at
:28:37. > :28:39.high levels. But, on t opposite side, it's
:28:40. > :28:44.perhaps when other things are happening in your life, or when
:28:45. > :28:50.there is, you know, a real medical situation going on, where that kind
:28:51. > :28:54.of stress can be counterproductive. The important thing is that all
:28:55. > :28:59.employers in sports and outside of sports know what to do and how to
:29:00. > :29:02.respond. What do you think we outside the sporting community need
:29:03. > :29:10.to learn about the stress that sports players are under? I think
:29:11. > :29:15.that outside of sport, there just needs to be a general awareness and
:29:16. > :29:19.understanding of what the spectrum of mental health issues are in
:29:20. > :29:24.general, and there needs to be an understanding that there is being a
:29:25. > :29:29.sportsperson doesn't make you immune to these. You are equally as
:29:30. > :29:33.vulnerable as anybody else. The stresses of, let's say, football, or
:29:34. > :29:38.cricket, are quite particular, but so are the stresses of a nurse, of a
:29:39. > :29:42.teacher, you know, of someone who is a carer. It is not to say that they
:29:43. > :29:45.are special or that they deserve any special attention from those outside
:29:46. > :29:49.of the industry. What is important is that they are acknowledged within
:29:50. > :29:54.the industry that people are aware of them, and they know exactly what
:29:55. > :29:59.to do when the signs and symptoms manifest themselves. Is there
:30:00. > :30:03.anything you want to add to that? It's one in four people, and it
:30:04. > :30:07.affects men as equally as it affects women. You mean one in fo people
:30:08. > :30:12.will have some sort of mental health episode or - Yes, absolutely, so one
:30:13. > :30:15.in four of us will go through it. Everybody watching tonight will know
:30:16. > :30:19.someone, if they're not going through it themselves, it's a common
:30:20. > :30:22.health issue that we need to get better at responding to. Thank you
:30:23. > :30:26.both very much. 'Poor Mexico', a long dead president
:30:27. > :30:30.is supposed to have said, 'so far from God. So close to the United
:30:31. > :30:33.Sates.' American demand for illegal drugs has has visited one of the
:30:34. > :30:38.most vicious gang wars imaginable upon the country. That in turn seems
:30:39. > :30:41.to have encouraged the growth of a cult which echoes ancient
:30:42. > :30:44.savageries. That in turn has led to the growth of religious rituals
:30:45. > :30:47.which less credulous societies might think had vanished generations ago,
:30:48. > :30:48.for there has been a revival of exorcisms. Vladimir Hernadez, of BBC
:30:49. > :31:13.Mundo reports. Death has been at the heart of
:31:14. > :31:20.Mexican culture for centuries. It has been venerated since the Aztecs.
:31:21. > :31:30.And the fastest growing cult in Mexico today is Santa Muert - Saint
:31:31. > :31:35.Death. I am in a poor area of Mexico City. It's home to one of the cult's
:31:36. > :31:47.biggest shrines. The area is riddled by drugs and crimes, but today the
:31:48. > :31:55.town is in a festive mood to celebrate S depth. She is St Death.
:31:56. > :32:03.She is said to be able to heal the sick and stop suffering.
:32:04. > :32:18.Did many people in prison follow Sanata
:32:19. > :32:28.But the surge in the saint's popularity has coincided with the
:32:29. > :32:49.rise of drug-related crime in mostly can. This journalist has written
:32:50. > :32:52.several books about the cult. How is Mexico today in terms of this
:32:53. > :33:14.tide of violent crime? A war over cocaine trafficking is
:33:15. > :33:19.sweeping through Mexico, killing thousands. Mexico's drugs war has
:33:20. > :33:22.claimed seventy 70,000 lives in the last ten years. The killings are
:33:23. > :33:28.becoming increasingly bizarre and savage.
:33:29. > :33:31.It is almost impossible for Mexicans not to be reminded of the violence
:33:32. > :33:34.that is affecting them every day. If you open a newspaper, you can find
:33:35. > :33:41.pictures of people dying in shootouts, others hanging from
:33:42. > :33:45.bridges. In some cases, the reminder that another mass grave has been
:33:46. > :33:55.found, and some pictures, they just speak for themselves.
:33:56. > :33:58.Monterey is Mexico's richest city, near the US border, and on the front
:33:59. > :34:02.line of the drugs war. Faced with mounting violence, the church here
:34:03. > :34:08.has begun to wage war on the drugs cartels and the devils. The soldiers
:34:09. > :34:14.and our police enforcement are working all the time. This Father is
:34:15. > :34:18.former vice-president of the International Association of
:34:19. > :34:22.Exorcists. He has worked with drugs traffickers who were followers of
:34:23. > :34:27.Saint Death and said to be possessed. He believes exorcism is
:34:28. > :34:33.one way of fighting the drugs war consuming the country. Saint Death
:34:34. > :34:37.is the cult being used by all our dealers, narco dealers. All the
:34:38. > :34:43.people related with all these terrible things, especially all the
:34:44. > :34:50.people who make this murders in a brutal way. We have found that most
:34:51. > :34:55.of them, if not all, most of them are related with the cult of Saint
:34:56. > :35:00.Death. He remembers one follower of the death cult particularly. He was
:35:01. > :35:09.in charge to cut in pieces the bodies, and he said that he would do
:35:10. > :35:21.it when they were alive. And he enjoyed seeing how they cry.
:35:22. > :35:24.Priests say there are now more trained exorcists in Mexico than any
:35:25. > :35:34.other country. I wanted to see one of them at work. This is one of the
:35:35. > :35:38.Mexico's most famous exorcists. People travel from across the
:35:39. > :35:47.country to see him. He told me that sometimes members of the drugs
:35:48. > :35:51.cartels attend his services. He has more credibility than most.
:35:52. > :35:55.The Vatican sent one of their leading exorcists to work with him
:35:56. > :36:01.two years ago, and he is nervous of us filming because, he says, the
:36:02. > :36:07.Vatican would not like it. (woman screams)
:36:08. > :36:12.Before long, people are vomiting, writhing
:36:13. > :36:19.on the floor and screaming, all evidence, the Father says, of
:36:20. > :36:22.demonic possession. Have you ever felt afraid when
:36:23. > :37:03.facing the devil? The Vatican says that before an
:37:04. > :37:06.exorcism, the person said to be possessed should be examined by a
:37:07. > :37:12.mental health professional. But I've seen no evidence of this happening.
:37:13. > :37:17.(woman screams) And not everyone in Mexico is
:37:18. > :37:24.convinced that the church's focus on fighting demons is helping the
:37:25. > :37:30.country in these troubled times. This man is a psychiatrist and a
:37:31. > :37:35.teacher in Mexico City. He specialises in schizophrenia and has
:37:36. > :38:20.treated people who he thinks a possessed.
:38:21. > :38:24.He also believes that exorcism could potentially help someone who is
:38:25. > :39:07.mentally ill. With drugs-related violence
:39:08. > :39:11.increasing, death seems ever present in this troubled country.
:39:12. > :39:15.Whatever Mexicans make of the cult of Saint Death or the exorcism
:39:16. > :39:18.campaign, it seems that, in a country gripped by extreme violence,
:39:19. > :39:24.many will try anything to stop the blood shed.
:39:25. > :39:29.Now, that is so gay - anyone with a child at school may well have heard
:39:30. > :39:33.the expression in the playground, or just joshing around. It doesn't mean
:39:34. > :39:37.gay in the current usage, and nor in the other sense of happy, it has
:39:38. > :39:41.evolved to mean the opposite as a term of abuse, a weapon with which
:39:42. > :39:46.to bully. Bullying, you might say, is something that can just happen,
:39:47. > :39:50.but the use of this particular word, particularly offends many who are
:39:51. > :40:03.gay. The singer Will Young is one of them. He is here, and also with us
:40:04. > :40:06.is a journalist Milo Minopolis. I don't like it, because it's linked
:40:07. > :40:11.to young people, to the description of one's sexuality, sexual
:40:12. > :40:16.preference, of wanting to sleep with a member of the same sex. There is
:40:17. > :40:21.no clear definition between the two, and this is backed up by statistics:
:40:22. > :40:24.87 per cent of young people feel when they hear the phrase eople feel
:40:25. > :40:31.when they hear the phrase "that's so gay" any use of it in a perjorative
:40:32. > :40:34.term feel like an outsider. Do you not find it troubling? Yes, I do,
:40:35. > :40:41.but that's not why I don't like this. The reason I don't like this,
:40:42. > :40:44.the problem is that being young is all about being transgressive, and
:40:45. > :40:47.naughty, and engaging in the forbidden, and it certainly was for
:40:48. > :40:52.me, and everybody I know, and the problem with these sorts of things,
:40:53. > :40:57.just at the time when young people, we're getting surveys saying that
:40:58. > :41:01.young people don't care about race, ethnicity, sexuality, and, yes, they
:41:02. > :41:07.do use these words, and they can be hurtful, and just at the point when
:41:08. > :41:10.young people are stopping caring, we are providing enormous targets by
:41:11. > :41:14.branding children of course because the other things of course is when
:41:15. > :41:19.you get these well-intentioned things that perk late down to
:41:20. > :41:25.bureaucracies in local schools and children branded racist - No, you
:41:26. > :41:33.get actions. There is a huge difference between someone being
:41:34. > :41:36.homophobic and the actions being homophobic. This isn't about
:41:37. > :41:42.punishment, it's about education. I understand that - But children are
:41:43. > :41:48.not born wanting to be prejudiced or even learn the, t phrase, "That's so
:41:49. > :41:52.gay" as meaning negative. It is taught. It's about educating people
:41:53. > :41:58.that young gay people find it offensive. I understand. I read in
:41:59. > :42:01.your Guardian column, you said that children fundamentally want to be
:42:02. > :42:05.nice to each other. I don't think that is the case. I think it is an
:42:06. > :42:07.important part of growing up, as people start with experiment with
:42:08. > :42:11.dangerous level, they position themselveses - They have to be
:42:12. > :42:16.guided. If you provide them with these enormous words on mainstream
:42:17. > :42:21.TV news stations because you've written in national newspapers, what
:42:22. > :42:28.is a kid going to do? Use it. How does it work with racism, sexism? 30
:42:29. > :42:32.years, it was used in schools when I was there and now is absolutely not
:42:33. > :42:36.tolerated through education. I think some of it works the same way. If
:42:37. > :42:41.you look last week, a headmistress or headmaster had to write a letter
:42:42. > :42:45.apologising to parents because they were threatening to brand children
:42:46. > :42:48.racist for not showing up to a multicultural event. The point of
:42:49. > :42:53.all of this stuff that it drives a wedge between people and creates a
:42:54. > :42:57.division at precisely the time when people don't care any more. We have
:42:58. > :43:02.won the battle - What battles have we won? You're putting targets on
:43:03. > :43:06.gay people's backs by presenting this tantalising naughty thing that
:43:07. > :43:09.young people are going to look at and want to call each other. I am so
:43:10. > :43:14.puzzled by your definition of what it is to be naughty. There's a huge
:43:15. > :43:18.difference between stealing a boiled sweet from the local newsagent and
:43:19. > :43:22.doing something that is offensive to over, let's say, 2 million gay
:43:23. > :43:27.people in the country. You know, what's wrong with that? If
:43:28. > :43:30.someone is being offensive towards someone, that's not being naughty,
:43:31. > :43:34.that should be highlighted, and pointed out, not punished, not - I
:43:35. > :43:37.don't know what the targets are. But the real effect of what you're doing
:43:38. > :43:41.is to police language. You say you sort of dismissed this - it is to
:43:42. > :43:44.police language when, and look, obviously what you're doing comes
:43:45. > :43:49.from the best possible place, right. It. That is patronising. It's not,
:43:50. > :43:52.because I agree with you that this is offensive and awful, but the
:43:53. > :43:56.problem is when it perk rates down in the bureaucracies and the
:43:57. > :44:01.incompetence of schools. What are the bureaucracies? bureaucracies?
:44:02. > :44:06.For, kids being branded racist if their parents don't send them to
:44:07. > :44:12.multicultural awareness days. That's one example. A worry would be that
:44:13. > :44:16.schools start to codify this stuff, that people get homophobic notes in
:44:17. > :44:21.their school record because they called somebody gay in the
:44:22. > :44:26.playground. It has happened. I can't predict every case in the school,
:44:27. > :44:32.but what I can predict, given Stonewall's who I am doing this
:44:33. > :44:39.campaign with, histor five years they spent on a school working on
:44:40. > :44:45.homophobic language, and the homophobic language has gone down.
:44:46. > :44:49.You're telling children, you're also educating. You will produce more
:44:50. > :44:52.free-thinking, free-willed young people who will accept people for
:44:53. > :44:56.who they are. It's a funny definition of free thinking clamping
:44:57. > :44:59.down on language, isn't it? You wrote yourself that language is
:45:00. > :45:03.everything, that's all we have, and clamping down on the ways that
:45:04. > :45:07.people use to express themselves, however ugly it is, is an essential
:45:08. > :45:10.part - Where is the clamping down? You guys are going to have to
:45:11. > :45:14.continue this discussion. We're going for a drink now!
:45:15. > :45:18.Thank you both very much. That's it for tonight. Before we go,
:45:19. > :45:22.spare a thought for the recently installed Sports Minister, Helen
:45:23. > :45:27.Grant who made the schoolgirl error of turning up for a television
:45:28. > :45:37.interview with her local ITV news programme without first swotting up
:45:38. > :45:41.on sporting trivia. Who is the Wimbledon tennis champion. I know
:45:42. > :45:48.that Andy Murray did it for us, and that is the most important thing.
:45:49. > :45:54.Who are the FA Cup holders at the moment? Come on, help... FA Cup
:45:55. > :46:03.holders, Manchester United because it's my favourite club. Who is the
:46:04. > :46:14.England Rugby Union captain? Which Paralympian won most gold medals at
:46:15. > :46:16.London 2012? Dave Weir. Good guess,