:00:10. > :00:18.Nelson Mandela, the father of the South African nation has died. An
:00:19. > :00:24.hour ago Jacob Zuma, the President of South Africa announced his death.
:00:25. > :00:34.Our beloved Nelson Mandela, the founding President of our democratic
:00:35. > :00:42.nation has departed. He passed on peacefully. Nelson Mandela was born
:00:43. > :00:47.in 1918, almost a century ago. In 1963 he was sentenced for life
:00:48. > :00:52.imprisonment for political offence, and spent 18 of his 27 years in
:00:53. > :00:56.prison on Robben Island. There are many people who feel it is useless
:00:57. > :01:02.and futile for us to continue to talk peace and nonviolence, against
:01:03. > :01:06.a Government's whose reply is only savage attacks. On an unarmed and
:01:07. > :01:14.defenceless people. He was released in 1990 and three years laterhand
:01:15. > :01:18.and President De Klerk were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Manned voted
:01:19. > :01:32.for the first time in his life and voted the first President of a
:01:33. > :01:36.democratic South Africa. He was surely the most famous man in the
:01:37. > :01:42.world, certainly the most respected, he was called the world's elder
:01:43. > :01:49.statesman. Nelson Mandela, Madiba, his Khan name, has died at the age
:01:50. > :01:53.of 95, surrounded by his family. Including his former wife and
:01:54. > :02:09.present wife, and the President, Jacob Zuma, made the announcement
:02:10. > :02:12.under an hour ago. Fellow South African under an hour ago. Fellow
:02:13. > :02:20.South Africans our beloved Nelson Mandela, father of our democratic
:02:21. > :02:27.nation has departed. He passed on peacefully in the company of his
:02:28. > :02:48.family surround 20. 50, on the 5th of December. He is now resting, he
:02:49. > :03:04.is now at peace. Our nation has lost its greatest son, our people have
:03:05. > :03:14.lost a father. Although we knew that this day would come nothing can
:03:15. > :03:25.diminish our sense of a profound and enduring loss. His tireless struggle
:03:26. > :03:34.for freedom and him, the respect of the world. Jacob Zuma, we speak to
:03:35. > :03:38.Johannesburg live now. It must be a profound atmosphere of sadness in
:03:39. > :03:42.the country? That's right, that statement which you heard which came
:03:43. > :03:50.just about an hour ago was preceded by a few hours of quite frenetic
:03:51. > :03:55.activity around Nelson Mandela's home in Johannesburg. We saw cars
:03:56. > :03:58.arriving, family members, some Government vehicles and about an
:03:59. > :04:04.hour before the statement police vans, trying to set up a cordon to
:04:05. > :04:08.keep whatever crowds might gather out. That certainly told people here
:04:09. > :04:12.that something was up. Even though, of course, this announcement has
:04:13. > :04:16.been expected for a very, very long time now, but then, of course, when
:04:17. > :04:20.the announcement came I think none the less for South Africans it will
:04:21. > :04:26.still be a shock. I think the key words there from Jacob Zuma that you
:04:27. > :04:31.heard speaking in Pretoria Union Buildings were profound and enduring
:04:32. > :04:36.sense of loss. He said that the nation had lost its greatest son and
:04:37. > :04:47.that our people have lost a father, people here call Mr Mandela,
:04:48. > :04:51."Madiba" which is his clan name, or "tata" which is father. He was ill
:04:52. > :04:54.for a very long time and he was 95, he was taken to hospital in June,
:04:55. > :06:48.which was the third time this year. He spent three months At his trial,
:06:49. > :06:48.which was the third time this year. Nelson Mandela closed his statement
:06:49. > :07:07.from Nelson Mandela closed his statement
:07:08. > :07:37.We have lost one of the only ideal he hoped
:07:38. > :07:41.We have lost one of the only profoundly good human beings that
:07:42. > :07:47.any of us will share time with. He not only belongs to us, he belongs
:07:48. > :07:49.to the ages. Through his fierce dignity and unbending will to
:07:50. > :07:56.sacrifice his own freedom for the freedom of others, Madiba transform
:07:57. > :08:02.South Africa and moved all of us. His journey from a prisoner to a
:08:03. > :08:07.President embodied the promise that human beings in countries can change
:08:08. > :08:14.for the better. His commitment to transfer power and reconciled with
:08:15. > :08:21.those who jailed him set an example that all humanity should aspire to.
:08:22. > :08:24.President Obama. And we will bring you reaction from other worldly
:08:25. > :08:35.goods as we get it. Let's go back to Gabriel. Although in 1999 he stood
:08:36. > :08:40.down and handed over to Thabo Mbeki comity was very active in society,
:08:41. > :08:46.huge force for reconciliation, very much a wise man. And indeed he took
:08:47. > :08:52.us down on issues like and HIV against Sabo Mbeki. He did. He
:08:53. > :08:57.remained a huge moral authority even after he left politics. Even after
:08:58. > :09:02.he almost disappeared from public life altogether. And that is why I
:09:03. > :09:06.think in part you will see such a huge reaction to his death tonight
:09:07. > :09:11.and in the coming days. Even though he had not been seen in public for a
:09:12. > :09:17.very long time, its very existence, the very knowledge of South Africans
:09:18. > :09:28.that Madiba, as they called him, was still alive exercised power over
:09:29. > :09:32.them, the vision of a country that could be better than it is. A
:09:33. > :09:38.country that achieved so much against such terrible odds. Under
:09:39. > :09:41.Nelson Mandela's leadership, the very fact of his continued existence
:09:42. > :09:51.I think gay people hope they could still move forward, and further. --
:09:52. > :09:55.gave people hope. We joined now by a South African journalist who
:09:56. > :09:59.reported the apartheid struggle and became close to Nelson Mandela. It
:10:00. > :10:07.is a sad time but thank you for speaking to us tonight. You knew
:10:08. > :10:22.Nelson Mandela as a young man and in fact you reported on his decision to
:10:23. > :10:30.take up the armed struggle. I knew him first 35 years ago. I'll began
:10:31. > :10:36.to see him as a journalist. There was debate about the papers that
:10:37. > :10:40.black people carried. People had been arrested and there was a trial
:10:41. > :10:55.in the basement of the courts. The magistrate closed the court. I said
:10:56. > :11:02.you better not do this. And Nelson never forgot this, in the latest
:11:03. > :11:07.years when I was in Robben Island and he -- he was in Robben Island
:11:08. > :11:13.and I would be where I am, he would write to me and addressed to me by
:11:14. > :11:19.name, he referred to this episode and the letter would be passed
:11:20. > :11:24.person to person. Do you think when he organised that national workers'
:11:25. > :11:30.strike, the three-day strike, and then carried on in that vein that he
:11:31. > :11:36.knew it was very possible he would be in prison for a very long time?
:11:37. > :11:41.Oh yeah, that was going back to those days, his commitment to
:11:42. > :11:49.freedom, his self-sacrifice, this was a man, we're talking about the
:11:50. > :11:54.end of the 1950s, 1960, although he was a leader in the of a anal
:11:55. > :11:58.Congress, he had a bit of an image as play boy. He was very handsome,
:11:59. > :12:06.well dressed, he was tall strapping man, he liked the laties and until
:12:07. > :12:13.he settled down. He was a lawyer, only a handful in Johannesburg at
:12:14. > :12:16.the time, when I saw him in prison I was the first non-family person to
:12:17. > :12:22.be allowed to see him as a friend not as a journalist in the early
:12:23. > :12:28.1980s. I had to give the Government an undertaking not to write it. It
:12:29. > :12:34.was pretty hard for me as I was deputy editor of the Mail. The the
:12:35. > :12:38.difference between what he was in 1960, and 1961 and what he was 20
:12:39. > :12:43.years ago, he was a different person. He matured, he had grown. I
:12:44. > :12:48.had heard already through the grapevine that he had become the
:12:49. > :12:59.natural leader on Robben Island, it wasn't just the of a
:13:00. > :13:07.It wasn't just the African National Congress testifies all people. On
:13:08. > :13:15.the telephone is the Archbishop of Canterbury. Good evening. Good
:13:16. > :13:19.evening. Perhaps when people think of Nelson Mandela they think of his
:13:20. > :13:24.enormous capacity for forgiveness? Yes, it is the most striking and
:13:25. > :13:31.extraordinary thing, and the footage this evening reminds us of that
:13:32. > :13:39.incredible gift of generosity and fness of spirit that is so unusual
:13:40. > :13:41.and unique. Do you think it was an extraordinary spirit of character
:13:42. > :13:47.that took him through 27 years, it is hard to imagine 27 years, 18 of
:13:48. > :13:53.them on Robben Island, never faltering once? I think it is... I
:13:54. > :13:57.think one is lost for words thinking of what the cost of that must have
:13:58. > :14:05.been personally. And the inner struggle that there must have been
:14:06. > :14:10.and where it ended with this great opening to accept all South Africans
:14:11. > :14:16.and set an example of forgiveness which challenges everyone around the
:14:17. > :14:20.world. There was a line from President Obama there, he was
:14:21. > :14:24.quoting t he said "I have fought against white domination, I have
:14:25. > :14:29.fought against black domination". He wanted such an inclusive South
:14:30. > :14:34.Africa, didn't he? Yes, and the pattern that South Africa has
:14:35. > :14:38.established and I know very well the present head of the Anglican Church
:14:39. > :14:45.in South Africa and you see it in him, is of enormous inclusion. A
:14:46. > :14:50.willingness to accept, if you like, a prejudice towards welcome and
:14:51. > :14:58.hospitality, rather than shutting out and empty. D -- enmity. Striking
:14:59. > :15:02.in his latter years that everyone in the world wanted to be photographed
:15:03. > :15:08.with Nelson Mandela? Yes, it did seem to be the great fashion. But it
:15:09. > :15:12.is more, it is the sense of the magic rubbing off, it is the inner
:15:13. > :15:20.character that needs to rub off not the outer sign. So you think, so do
:15:21. > :15:24.you think it is possible to be innately good, particularly good,
:15:25. > :15:29.Benjamin was talking earlier about him being a handsome young man and
:15:30. > :15:34.he loved going out, that it is possible to have an innate sense of
:15:35. > :15:39.goodness? I think it is possible to deciding to the right way. Clearly
:15:40. > :15:48.that's what happened with him. It must have been a huge inner struggle
:15:49. > :15:53.to have got there. But he did so. Innate goodness, I don't know about
:15:54. > :15:55.innate goodness, I think there is innate decision, clear inward
:15:56. > :16:01.decisions that certain things are right and certain things are wrong.
:16:02. > :16:05.Latterly, of course, although he had withdrawn to a certain extent to
:16:06. > :16:09.public life, his influence in South Africa was still as strong?
:16:10. > :16:17.Everything, every South African that I have come across in recent years
:16:18. > :16:23.saw him as the beacon by which one set one's course in life, if you
:16:24. > :16:27.wanted to do the right thing. Yes, he is one of the great lights of the
:16:28. > :16:32.world and it has gone out this evening. We can see now Imams of
:16:33. > :16:42.people in South Africa sitting I think perhaps near Nelson Mandela's
:16:43. > :16:46.house and the families inside in terms of the people his current wife
:16:47. > :16:50.and his former wife and surviving children. Nelson Mandela is to be
:16:51. > :16:54.buried in the little village in the Eastern Cape which he chose as his
:16:55. > :16:59.final resting place, it is a region that has a special importance in
:17:00. > :17:03.Mandela's remarkable history. He was born near here, it was here he
:17:04. > :17:07.learned many of the lessons and skills that would be crucial to him
:17:08. > :17:20.as a politician. In the first part of a special Newsnight obituary, we
:17:21. > :17:24.report on his early life and struggle against apartheid. Nelson
:17:25. > :17:33.Mandela was born on July 18th 1918, out on the hills in a hut that used
:17:34. > :17:37.to stall here as part of a corral in the village. It is a remote part of
:17:38. > :17:42.South Africa that he always regarded as his true home. Here, even as a
:17:43. > :17:49.boy, he showed a singleminded determination and would fight for
:17:50. > :17:54.what he believed to be right. His father was a local chief and
:17:55. > :18:08.grandson of the king of the Tembu people, who controlled the area down
:18:09. > :18:15.to the Bashi River. It is a part of the world where people uphold the
:18:16. > :18:20.old tradition, these women celebrate the circumcision, these men who have
:18:21. > :18:24.par taken in the ritual are held in he is collision, as Mandela was when
:18:25. > :18:28.he took part in this ritual. Outside there is a demonstration of stick
:18:29. > :18:35.fighting, in which opponents spar and parry with clubs made from hard
:18:36. > :18:44.thorn wood. A rural sport at which the young Mandela also excelled. His
:18:45. > :18:48.childhood friend, Maxim Bombatu remembers him as a man who didn't
:18:49. > :19:09.like to lose. Mandela was brought up here in the
:19:10. > :19:12.little village of Kunu, where he would herd cattle and sheep. After
:19:13. > :19:19.his father died he moved to the court of the acting Tembu king, the
:19:20. > :19:24.regent. A leader, the regent told him, is like a shepherd, he stays
:19:25. > :19:29.behind the flock, letting the most nimble go on ahead, whereupon the
:19:30. > :19:33.others follow, not realised all the along they are being dictated to
:19:34. > :19:42.from behind. It was a lesson he would never forget. In 1941 at the
:19:43. > :19:46.age of 23, Nelson Mandela moved to Johannesburg to escape from a
:19:47. > :19:51.marriage arranged by the regent. Here he studied law, became involved
:19:52. > :19:57.in politics and threw himself into city living. There was no equality
:19:58. > :20:05.between black and white, but there was a vibrant black cultural and
:20:06. > :20:12.music scene. And Mandela developed into a confident man about town and
:20:13. > :20:16.a sharp dresser. The stick fighter became a boxer, learning when to
:20:17. > :20:22.dodge and when to attack. Skills that would prove crucial for a
:20:23. > :20:29.political leader. He cared enormously about his appearance,
:20:30. > :20:36.ands you know he was also a fairly good boxer. So he looked after his
:20:37. > :20:46.body and the ladies had an eye for hem and he had for them too. In 1944
:20:47. > :20:51.he married a nurse, Evelyn Masi, there would be little time for
:20:52. > :20:54.family life. For the same year he joined the Executive Committee of
:20:55. > :21:00.the new youth league of the ANC, pledged to fight for black rights.
:21:01. > :21:07.Also on the executive Oliver Tambo, a friend from school days, with whom
:21:08. > :21:12.Mandela would start a ground-breaking African law firm.
:21:13. > :21:21.Mandela and Tambu operated from this building, Chancellor House in town
:21:22. > :21:26.Johannesburg, it was the centre of resistance. They became attorneys
:21:27. > :21:31.for a host of black clients. Practically everybody wanted to be
:21:32. > :21:37.defended by him. Because he had so much work and he briefed counsel,
:21:38. > :21:42.young counsel like me to go and, if I turned up and said I was
:21:43. > :21:47.instructed by Mr Mandela the clients were ed that he was not there to do
:21:48. > :21:53.the case himself. He was always a very stylish figure in court? Oh
:21:54. > :22:01.yeah, absolutely, no doubt about it, he was, he was, he was the centre of
:22:02. > :22:08.the stage. But life for black South African was getting worse, as the
:22:09. > :22:11.Africana National Party enforced an ever-more stringent policy of
:22:12. > :22:16.apartheid, separateness. Today the memory of apartheid is kept alive in
:22:17. > :22:19.a Johannesburg museum. Everyone was classified by race, with different
:22:20. > :22:25.races forced to live in different areas. Black South Africans had to
:22:26. > :22:29.carry pass-books or face arrest. ANC leaders like Mandela who called for
:22:30. > :22:34.democratic, multiracial South Africa, were harassed, banned from
:22:35. > :22:38.attending meetings and arrested. He was now on the ANC national
:22:39. > :22:46.executive, by 1958 he had divorced Evelyn and remarried to Winnie, with
:22:47. > :22:52.even less time for his family. The recollections of my dad when I was
:22:53. > :23:01.young of a father who was there but never there. You know he was never
:23:02. > :23:08.around the home. So how do you balance the politics and the family
:23:09. > :23:13.life? Did he balance them, I don't know that, I don't know that he was
:23:14. > :23:26.able to maintain that kind of balance. By 1960 the situation had
:23:27. > :23:33.become even more critical. An anti-pass law in sharpsville became
:23:34. > :23:41.a massacre when the police shot many people dead. Manied had -- manied
:23:42. > :23:46.went underground to think. Many people think it is futile for us to
:23:47. > :23:50.continue to talk peaceful resistance, against a Government
:23:51. > :23:56.whose only reply is savage attacks against an unarmed and defenceless
:23:57. > :24:00.people. An ANC sabotage campaign began with Mandela in charge. As
:24:01. > :24:06.leader of the underground army, Spear of the Nation, he became the
:24:07. > :24:10.most wanted man in South Africa. He secretly left for Britain before his
:24:11. > :24:16.arrest in 1962. He was earlier acquitted for treats son, in
:24:17. > :24:18.Pretoria he and other senior ANC leaders faced charges that they
:24:19. > :24:22.plotted and engineered the commission of acts of violence and
:24:23. > :24:27.destruction throughout the country. Defiant as ever he appeared in court
:24:28. > :24:32.in tribal dress. He expected to be hanged, as were so many of those who
:24:33. > :24:34.continued the struggle and from the dock he delivered one of the most
:24:35. > :25:33.powerful speeches of his life. Mandela was found guilty, but his
:25:34. > :25:37.life was spared. He and seven other colleagues were sentenced to life
:25:38. > :25:45.imprisonment and sent to the bleak jail on Robben Island off the coast
:25:46. > :25:49.of Cape Town. Mandela would remain here for 18 years, held in this cell
:25:50. > :25:53.in the isolation block, at first with only a straw mat to sleep on.
:25:54. > :25:59.From the start he acted like a leader, not a prisoner. He put his
:26:00. > :26:05.hands through the bars and he shook my hand and said he was very pleased
:26:06. > :26:10.to meet you, and I said I'm pleased to meet you, I said tell me about
:26:11. > :26:15.the conditions here. The head warder was with us and yet Mandela had no
:26:16. > :26:22.hesitation in telling me exactly what they were complaining of. He
:26:23. > :26:30.was brought by no less than eight warders. And said that, George you
:26:31. > :26:37.know this place has really made me forget my good manners, I must
:26:38. > :26:42.introduce you to my guard of honour. He proceeded to introduce me to each
:26:43. > :26:49.one of them by first name and surname. And you know prisoners
:26:50. > :26:55.generally speak this and don't set the pace at which the group walks,
:26:56. > :27:02.it is the warders. But here it was quite clear that the pace was almost
:27:03. > :27:06.a regular gall one, and it was being set by Nelson Mandela. How did the
:27:07. > :27:12.guards react to that? They were shocked. In January 1965 Nelson
:27:13. > :27:17.Mandela and the other political prisoners were first brought here
:27:18. > :27:22.and forced to hack away at the rocks of the Robben Island lime quarry.
:27:23. > :27:27.Forced labour that would continue for the next 13 years. For the first
:27:28. > :27:32.three years Mandela was not even allowed to wear dark glass, despite
:27:33. > :27:38.the blinding glare from the rocks. His eyesight never fully recovered.
:27:39. > :27:42.Mandela became the prisoners' leader and spokesman. Together they turned
:27:43. > :27:49.this prison island into a political workshop. He was, at least being
:27:50. > :27:55.held alongside old friends and ANC colleagues, like Walter Sasulu,
:27:56. > :28:01.together they discussed strategy for the outside world. Visits from his
:28:02. > :28:06.wife Winnie were a lifeline for man who put his struggle above his own
:28:07. > :28:12.life. Even his fellow prisoners found him inscrutable. He doesn't
:28:13. > :28:24.easily show emotion. When his mother died when we were in jail, And his
:28:25. > :28:32.son was killed while we were in there in an accident, he never
:28:33. > :28:38.showed emotion. His closest friend Walter was there and he could see
:28:39. > :28:42.this man has taken it badly and went to console him. But as far as the
:28:43. > :28:48.rest of us were concerned, he never, ever allowed his personal concerns
:28:49. > :28:54.to override what he considered to be his duty towards us, the fellow
:28:55. > :29:00.prisoners. Eventually change would come. In 1982 Mandela was
:29:01. > :29:04.transferred to the prison on the mainland. He was offered his freedom
:29:05. > :29:08.provided he gave up violence unconditionally. He refused. Instead
:29:09. > :29:12.he started solo negotiations with the apartheid Government, deciding
:29:13. > :29:18.there are times when a leader must move ahead of the flock. Six years
:29:19. > :29:27.later he was moved again, now to a house of his own, though still
:29:28. > :29:30.within a prison complex. He had garden, a pool and even a cook to
:29:31. > :29:35.make him fish cakes for breakfast. Here for 14 months he conducted
:29:36. > :29:42.crucial negotiations with the Governments of first PW both that
:29:43. > :29:46.and FW de Klerk, to the concern of some colleagues. The rumours spread
:29:47. > :29:51.in the country and reached our people outside, and the rumour is
:29:52. > :29:57.Mandela is selling out. He's talking to the chaps for his own benefit,
:29:58. > :30:00.he's selling out the struggle. But Mandela was aware that the apartheid
:30:01. > :30:40.Government was under increasing pressure. free There was an upsurge
:30:41. > :30:47.in the ANC's own armed struggle while pressure from outside included
:30:48. > :30:53.sanctions by a mass campaign to free prisoners. There was a mass pop
:30:54. > :30:58.concert against apartheid, the aim to ensure his global image was now
:30:59. > :31:08.that of a global leader now in prison. The message reached a quite
:31:09. > :31:13.extraordinary television audience, estimated at 500 million people in
:31:14. > :31:17.67 countries, far more than Live Aid, and reinforced by songs
:31:18. > :31:27.including an international hit anthem.
:31:28. > :31:32.# Free Nelson Mandela # Free Nelson Mandela ??FORCEDWHI
:31:33. > :31:38.Music can put across the emotional side of the message, you know.
:31:39. > :31:41.Politicians can talk forever and the sadness of the whole situation,
:31:42. > :31:49.that's what I tried to put into the song. Less than two years larks on
:31:50. > :31:54.February 11th 1990, Nelson Mandela, now the world's best known political
:31:55. > :31:59.prisoner was freed on his own terms. He walked out of the prison, hand in
:32:00. > :32:06.hand with his wife Winnie in one of the great theatrical, emotional
:32:07. > :32:11.moments of contemporary history. The Prime Minister, David Cameron,
:32:12. > :32:16.has just spoken in Downing Street. Tonight, one of the brightest lights
:32:17. > :32:22.of our world has gone out. Nelson Mandela was not just a hero of our
:32:23. > :32:28.time, but a hero of all time. The first President of a free South
:32:29. > :32:36.Africa, a man who suffered so much for freedom and justice, and a man
:32:37. > :32:40.who threw his dignity -- through his dignity and triumph inspired
:32:41. > :32:46.millions. Joining from down the line in Birmingham and England the
:32:47. > :32:51.Reverend Jesse Jackson, and the South Africa editor of the Economist
:32:52. > :32:58.and now the director of the Royal African Society. First of all, Mr
:32:59. > :33:02.Jackson, he had been ill for a very long time, but the passing of Nelson
:33:03. > :33:07.Mandela still comes as a shock? It is still traumatising, his release
:33:08. > :33:14.took us to unbelievable heights of joy and the release of his spirit
:33:15. > :33:18.takes to deep depths of pain and sorrow as we think about him being a
:33:19. > :33:23.suffering servant who used the power of his presence and persona to bring
:33:24. > :33:28.down the very violent walls of apartheid. The most critical moment
:33:29. > :33:32.he chose reconciliation over retribution. That may be the pivitol
:33:33. > :33:36.point. He could have with one wave of his finger sent South Africa into
:33:37. > :33:41.a bitter, bloody devisive fight. He chose to get ahead rather than to
:33:42. > :33:48.get even. Do you remember as a young man, was he an inspiring figure to
:33:49. > :34:04.you? He was that. Because in the, not the king and Nelson Mandela, in
:34:05. > :34:07.1963, Dr King references his speech and realised how difficult that
:34:08. > :34:14.battle would be. We kept on pulling and people like Randall Robinson and
:34:15. > :34:17.Mary Berry and others, we were arrested every day for a year in
:34:18. > :34:21.front of the South African embassy, with heightened American and western
:34:22. > :34:25.consciousness to a new level. And finally the US Government chose to
:34:26. > :34:28.engage in sanctions against South Africa. We could not get Britain and
:34:29. > :34:36.Mrs Thatcher to take that position, in the end it was clear that the
:34:37. > :34:40.side of history was tilting towards Mr Mandela and he would be released
:34:41. > :34:44.and let out of jail. When he was let out of jail he had the good judgment
:34:45. > :34:47.to engage in a new process politically rather than an old
:34:48. > :34:54.process militarily that would have been so bloody. Going back, because
:34:55. > :35:02.you followed Nelson Mandela and you followed that struggle, and Walter
:35:03. > :35:07.Sazulu was mentioned earlier, that group around Nelson Mandela was so
:35:08. > :35:13.important to him? With Walter and Ahmed and Kathrada, this small group
:35:14. > :35:16.that had all gone in at the same time and thought they would never
:35:17. > :35:21.come out. They realised, one of the things they realised was they had
:35:22. > :35:28.time. There Mandela really changes when he's in jail with these other
:35:29. > :35:33.people. But although they were still a very strong group, he then went
:35:34. > :35:35.off on his own and began to talk to the Government. That's the
:35:36. > :35:42.extraordinary thing, because that was the thing that would never, they
:35:43. > :35:49.would never agree to. And he did it without their permission. Your own
:35:50. > :35:57.experience of Nelson Mandela, Mr Jackson, when did you meet him? In
:35:58. > :36:01.190, I was one of the -- I was one of the first people to meet him out
:36:02. > :36:08.of prison. I remember him coming to New York on his first tour and he
:36:09. > :36:18.was in an interview and they said you are visiting nation that is are
:36:19. > :36:22.anathema to America, he said you can't choose my friends they helped
:36:23. > :36:26.me get free. He never stopped reaching out to the third world
:36:27. > :36:30.outcast nations to bring them to untent. And many of the politicians
:36:31. > :36:35.today still have those same nations as outcast, he never gave up on
:36:36. > :36:39.trying to create one big world. You heard one of his older daughters
:36:40. > :36:43.saying his old life was a struggle and that he didn't have, obviously
:36:44. > :36:48.he was away for so long, he didn't have much of a family life. But when
:36:49. > :36:54.he came out there was a rejuvenation in that, and the wonderful marriage
:36:55. > :37:01.he had to his wife? 27 years of that kind of family separation, weighed
:37:02. > :37:04.heavily. I shall never forget one of my last conversations with him a
:37:05. > :37:08.couple of years ago, when they arrested him at the farm, they were
:37:09. > :37:12.planning that week to bomb, they had been bombing installations, they
:37:13. > :37:17.were going to bomb a hospital and a school perhaps the next week, they
:37:18. > :37:20.thought all efforts were futile. He said he actually was glad that they
:37:21. > :37:24.caught him and jailed him rather than allow him to in fact kill
:37:25. > :37:30.innocent people. He did not want the bloodshed on his hands. He chose in
:37:31. > :37:40.the end, he looked inside and had suffered for 27 years years and
:37:41. > :37:44.killed innocent people. After the office as President, he was a huge
:37:45. > :37:47.force for reconciliation for South Africa, and also a firm voice when
:37:48. > :37:50.he didn't like the things happening in South Africa? He made it very
:37:51. > :38:00.clear not just for South Africa but for all of Africa about DMOKising
:38:01. > :38:03.those developments democratising Governments. He could have been the
:38:04. > :38:08.President until tonight, after two terms he left and engaged in a
:38:09. > :38:15.political process, and succeeded Mbeki and Zuma, and also that is an
:38:16. > :38:21.example of having an ordinary organised effort of transition. I
:38:22. > :38:25.cannot help that had been a divided country based on bloodshed, it would
:38:26. > :38:29.have been a weak country, the strongest country in Africa and
:38:30. > :38:36.South Africa in no small measure it is stronger because of his legacy.
:38:37. > :38:54.You also saw him use his lawyerly skills when it came to the
:38:55. > :38:58.elections? I saw him at a Qazulu at the start of the election. The chief
:38:59. > :39:02.said he would not take part which meant the whole nation would not
:39:03. > :39:07.vote. He went into the heartland and if he was going to get assassinated
:39:08. > :39:15.it would happen there. He made the extraordinary speech saying the king
:39:16. > :39:20.of the Zulus was his father. Because he was a chief, but he also was his
:39:21. > :39:24.son because he was adviser to his father, so he played this game and
:39:25. > :39:28.he said, he was basically saying come in and vote on this election.
:39:29. > :39:33.And I remember this because he came up, it was in a soccer field and
:39:34. > :39:38.there was a sort of wooden podium and by chance, I got caught at the
:39:39. > :39:43.top of the steps and Mandela came up and I was standing there at the top
:39:44. > :39:46.of the steps and he came up and I was obviously in the wrong place at
:39:47. > :39:51.the wrong time he put out his hand and said good afternoon, my name is
:39:52. > :39:56.Nelson Mandela, about to make the most dangerous speech of that whole
:39:57. > :40:01.election campaign. Mr Jackson? We must not forget that the men of the
:40:02. > :40:05.cape of South Africa part of the broader coalition did not vote for
:40:06. > :40:10.him in that first election. They feared they could not reconcile with
:40:11. > :40:14.blacks in Soweto, and yet he was able to reconcile those forces to
:40:15. > :40:18.ensure them that it would be a commitment not to tribalism but
:40:19. > :40:23.mutual security and wholesome democracy. Just finally, one
:40:24. > :40:27.imagines that his funeral and we were saying this a little while ago,
:40:28. > :40:32.his funeral will be one of the very big events of this period of the
:40:33. > :40:39.21st century. Well the lease of his body was the big -- the release of
:40:40. > :40:44.his body was the one of the biggest events the world has ever known and
:40:45. > :40:47.the release of his spirit may be the same. This was truly a force for
:40:48. > :40:51.good and the world has embraced him now even as it did in life. Thank
:40:52. > :40:56.you very much indeed. 27 years in jail would destroy many men but for
:40:57. > :41:00.Mandela, as we have been hearing, the years of suffering pray
:41:01. > :41:04.preparation, for once he left prison a free man at last he would be asked
:41:05. > :41:13.to play a crucial role in surely the most dangerous and critical period
:41:14. > :41:17.of his country's history. Once Nelson Mandela was free,
:41:18. > :41:20.celebrations rapidly gave way to hard politics. Those who expected
:41:21. > :41:27.him to be bitter were quickly disabused. He managed to disarm his
:41:28. > :41:32.old enemies, the Africanas of the National Party, with his rare blend
:41:33. > :41:37.of toughest and understanding. I will never forget the first meeting
:41:38. > :41:45.with the ANC, and he was given the first opportunity to speak by Mr De
:41:46. > :41:53.Klerk. He obviously made a very, very study of the Africans history,
:41:54. > :42:00.our history, I'm an Africana, he knew it better than most of us, he
:42:01. > :42:05.came forward with his thesis, saying that what he could not understand
:42:06. > :42:09.was that here was a people who suffered at the hands of the
:42:10. > :42:17.British, and what he could not understand is why we could not see
:42:18. > :42:24.the same misery and order of things amongst the blacks. But when
:42:25. > :42:28.negotiation began in ernest, and De Klerk attacked Mandela for not
:42:29. > :42:31.disbanding his guerrilla fighters, he furiously hit back. What
:42:32. > :42:40.political organisation could hand over its weapons to the same men --
:42:41. > :42:44.man regarded as killing innocent people. He had proved to black South
:42:45. > :42:50.Africans that he had not sold out. That one speech wiped the record
:42:51. > :42:54.clear. In the country people were driving around, there were people
:42:55. > :42:59.stopping and flashing their lights. In Soweto they were in the streets
:43:00. > :43:07.shouting and hailing what had happened. That was the turning point
:43:08. > :43:12.for the black institutes. These were dangerous days for South Africa,
:43:13. > :43:17.NENTs of majority -- opponents of majority rule or ANC rule
:43:18. > :43:26.threatening to make the country unglovable. There were violent
:43:27. > :43:32.clashes between ANC supporters and the Zulu chief Freedom Party. And
:43:33. > :43:37.even fears of Civil War when white extremists threatened to fight for
:43:38. > :43:45.their own state. Mandela's greatest challenge as a peace maker came in
:43:46. > :43:49.April 1983. Chris Harney, communist leader, and arguably the country's
:43:50. > :43:55.second-most popular black politician was murdered by a white extremist.
:43:56. > :44:00.Black South Africa erupted in fury. It seemed the country to be torn
:44:01. > :44:04.apart by race riots, but Mandela diffused the situation by explaining
:44:05. > :44:11.how the assassin had been caught, thanks to the actions of a white
:44:12. > :44:20.woman, an Africana. We have never been closer to catastrophe, and the
:44:21. > :44:27.bloodbath that people had been predicting was going to be our lot,
:44:28. > :44:31.that we were going to have been overwhelmed, we would have been
:44:32. > :44:46.overwhelmed. It was Mandela personally who averted that
:44:47. > :44:51.catastrophe? His contribution was critical. Nelson Mandela prevailed,
:44:52. > :45:04.on April 27th 1994, South African held its first truly democratic
:45:05. > :45:20.election In May he was sworn in as the country's first black President.
:45:21. > :45:28.I, Nelson Mandela do here by pledge to be faithful to the Republic of
:45:29. > :45:35.South Africa. His new Government of National Unity had a former white
:45:36. > :45:39.South African politician. We made a terrible mistake, I blame myself and
:45:40. > :45:46.our colleagues, and I blame our security personnel. We had such a
:45:47. > :45:51.phobia or mania about communism. And a threat of communism. It was real
:45:52. > :46:02.at the time, it was real at the time, even the Americans thought the
:46:03. > :46:11.same. That some how we would just be blind. As President, Mandela's
:46:12. > :46:22.public image was that of a cheerleader for the new rainbow
:46:23. > :46:26.nation. He amazed and delighted Afrikaneres by wearing a new
:46:27. > :46:30.springbok rugby shirt. Businessmen too fell under his spell as he
:46:31. > :46:44.persuaded them he was certainly no communist and they should invest in
:46:45. > :46:47.the new South Africa. And Cape Town tourists travelled to Robben Island
:46:48. > :46:51.through the Nelson Mandela Gateway, one of thousands of buildings and
:46:52. > :46:57.roads named after him in South Africa and across the world. At the
:46:58. > :47:04.bookshop one of his former prison guards sold Mandela momentos. He was
:47:05. > :47:10.that rarity of statesman who seemed to connect with everyone, from
:47:11. > :47:15.politicians to models. But his daughter saw a different side. For
:47:16. > :47:21.the 27 years for him to survive he had to actually blanche his feelings
:47:22. > :47:28.and emotion and become very intellectual and rational person. So
:47:29. > :47:33.he doesn't, and I say this, he doesn't easily connect you know. He
:47:34. > :47:36.will say to me, he goes out there and has this connection with the
:47:37. > :47:43.people and he holds the babies. That is one person, but when he comes to
:47:44. > :47:50.very close and very intimate there is always the distance. There is
:47:51. > :47:55.always the distance. For Nelson Mandela public triumph was matched
:47:56. > :47:59.by private tragedy. His second wife Winnie had campaigned tirelessly for
:48:00. > :48:05.his release and harassed by the authorities. She became increasingly
:48:06. > :48:09.militant and was seen first as beyond ANC control and then as a
:48:10. > :48:18.liability after being convicted of kidnapping, the marriage collapsed.
:48:19. > :48:26.He really loved her. You know, he was almost like have you seen a
:48:27. > :48:36.puppy when it follows with its eyes the master or mistress it loves. He
:48:37. > :48:45.was something like that. I mean you saw the adoration. It is one of the
:48:46. > :48:52.most traumatic things ever to have happened to him. On his 80th
:48:53. > :49:00.birthday Nelson Mandela married for the third time, to the widow of the
:49:01. > :49:06.former President of Mozambique. Leadership is a lonely journey, very
:49:07. > :49:10.rarely do we have people who are really true loyal people around you,
:49:11. > :49:17.people tell you things you want to hear most of the time. I think that
:49:18. > :49:25.he needed a companion. I think he found one in Grace, and she has been
:49:26. > :49:30.really very instrumental in, and I give him a lot of credit for
:49:31. > :49:39.bringing this divided family together. Mandela stepped down as
:49:40. > :49:46.President in 1999 to make way for Thabo Mbeki, he remained an astute
:49:47. > :49:52.politician. Charming a British television audience with his dancing
:49:53. > :49:57.in 2001. He also attended a concert in his honour in London's Trafalgar
:49:58. > :50:01.Square. He was accompanied by Tony Blair, whom he would later furiously
:50:02. > :50:06.criticise over the Iraq War. He became involved in education
:50:07. > :51:50.projects, conflict mediation and a campaign to fight HIV AIDS. It is
:51:51. > :51:57.the chosen final resting place for an extraordinary politician who was
:51:58. > :52:04.admired. Against all odds it is a man who tried to make life better
:52:05. > :52:09.for you and me and for humanity. He will live not only in South Africa,
:52:10. > :52:26.and Africa, but the world at large, and one can say how and when can we
:52:27. > :52:40.find the man like him. A man who held a nation together and made it
:52:41. > :52:52.proud. Made them believe, hey, it is possible for enemies to become
:52:53. > :52:57.friends. Nelson Mandela will be remembered as one of the great
:52:58. > :53:06.fighters idealists and statesmen of Africa and of the world. We can go
:53:07. > :53:11.now to pictures from where Nelson Mandela used to live, people dancing
:53:12. > :53:15.and standing near his house, and we also know, of course, that there are
:53:16. > :53:19.a number of people gathered at his home in Johannesburg where the
:53:20. > :53:24.surviving children and indeed his wife and former wife are earlier
:53:25. > :53:28.this evening and I believe still to be there. Those are the pictures
:53:29. > :53:37.from Houghton in South Africa, we can go and speak to the Vice
:53:38. > :53:45.Chancellor of the Rand University. Good evening. Tell me, what
:53:46. > :53:51.difference do you think there will be in South Africa now that Nelson
:53:52. > :53:54.Mandela is not there in a way as a guiding force? I think it is worth
:53:55. > :53:57.bearing in mind that Nelson Mandela, this is a very poignant and sad
:53:58. > :54:03.moment, but I also think that Nelson Mandela's passing is the passing of
:54:04. > :54:07.the last of a generation of ANC leaders unsullied by the trappings
:54:08. > :54:12.of power. He was, if you like, a unifying figure, and in the days
:54:13. > :54:17.that move on I suspect that for the short-term he will unify South
:54:18. > :54:22.Africa like no-one else has. If you think of the World Cup, think about
:54:23. > :54:26.it a thousand-times more where South Africans of all types, classes and
:54:27. > :54:31.races will unite in his memory. In the long-term, I think, he is no
:54:32. > :54:36.longer the asset that the ANC would have had. He was a unifying figure.
:54:37. > :54:40., he could rally support for the ANC like no-one could, that is no longer
:54:41. > :54:46.going to be available to the ANC. Do you think that actually will have a
:54:47. > :54:50.detrimental impact on the country? I think in the long-term it will, in
:54:51. > :54:54.the short-term it will galvanise support for the ANC, in the
:54:55. > :54:57.long-term I think it is worth bearing in mind that he will no
:54:58. > :55:05.longer be available as an asset for the ANC. For those in worried about
:55:06. > :55:10.South Africa fracturing, that is far from happening. South Africa for all
:55:11. > :55:14.of its weaknesses and changes around inequality and poverty it is a very
:55:15. > :55:19.stable, politically stable society. It does have fissures and fractures,
:55:20. > :55:24.it is worth bearing in mind that Nelson Mandela established a very,
:55:25. > :55:29.very sound foundation, a foundation that is institutionally structured.
:55:30. > :55:34.They have a judicial system, parliament and courts. While there
:55:35. > :55:39.are challenges like many other places, it will continue as a stable
:55:40. > :55:42.society. He hasn't been politically active for at least four or five
:55:43. > :55:47.years. He was, as you said, a guiding hand, probably his memory
:55:48. > :55:50.will continue to do that. He will be what Lincoln was to the United
:55:51. > :55:57.States, what many other, what Gandhi is to India, Nelson Mandela will be
:55:58. > :56:00.that and more to South Africa. As an educationalist, one of the things he
:56:01. > :56:04.was so keen to do was transform education in South Africa, just
:56:05. > :56:17.explain to us how that happened. How different it looks now in terms of
:56:18. > :56:21.education? He was probably the most prominent iluminist. President, he
:56:22. > :56:29.spent a number of years there, a number of his fellow comrates and
:56:30. > :56:36.colleagues are -- comrades and colleagues were there. Else always
:56:37. > :56:44.committed to this. We have done fairly well with the access to
:56:45. > :56:48.schools. We have 96-94% access to school. It is the quality of
:56:49. > :56:53.schooling when they get there is not that great. We lose 50% of the
:56:54. > :56:58.people in the next ten years, and only 250,000 people will come out of
:56:59. > :57:03.1. 2 million people who enter the system in grade 1. That is an
:57:04. > :57:08.enormous wastage of human talent. At the high education level South
:57:09. > :57:16.Africa the numbers have completely doubled. Its higher education system
:57:17. > :57:21.is completely deracialised. It is a mixed record, there is a partial
:57:22. > :57:24.success but there are significant weaknesses that needs to be
:57:25. > :57:33.transcended. Thank you very much for joining u with the He willeders are
:57:34. > :57:42.an -- Elder are a group of officials to work on human rights. It is
:57:43. > :57:47.chaired by Kofi Annan And many others are part of it. Sir Richard
:57:48. > :57:55.Branson is part of it. How did Nelson Mandela play his part in your
:57:56. > :58:03.group? He was critical, he and his wife were the founding elders, he
:58:04. > :58:07.felt he wanted his legacy to live on through 12 wonderful men and women
:58:08. > :58:11.who have high moral authority and who could speak out on issues in the
:58:12. > :58:28.world, and also get out in the world and try to resolve conflicts. In the
:58:29. > :58:34.early days he was very involved but not so much in the later days. His
:58:35. > :58:40.wonderful wife, the other founding member, will now get very much
:58:41. > :58:45.involved more with the elders and make sure it will carry on in his
:58:46. > :58:51.name. Enyou encountered him and had conversations with him, I imagine he
:58:52. > :58:56.actually had quite a wicked sense of humour? A wonderful sense of humour,
:58:57. > :59:06.and you know he was always dancing, he would sing, he would pull in the
:59:07. > :59:10.cleaning lady and you know. And that was despite the fact that his knees
:59:11. > :59:18.were wrecked from 27 years of breaking stones in a jail. So you
:59:19. > :59:23.know, so, yeah, a wonderful sense of humour. But also when he was
:59:24. > :59:28.actually President he would do some extraordinary things. I once got a
:59:29. > :59:35.call when I was in the bath in England and was told that Mandela
:59:36. > :59:39.was on the phone. He said that a chain of health clubs had gone
:59:40. > :59:46.bankrupt, and would I get on the next plane to come and rescue the
:59:47. > :59:51.5,000 employees. Did you? I did, and we have now got the biggest health
:59:52. > :59:56.club chain in South Africa and employing 20,000 people, Virgin
:59:57. > :00:02.Active in South Africa. So all the time he was trying to see how he
:00:03. > :00:06.could help others in some way or another. That must have been a
:00:07. > :00:13.wonderful knack, because presumably nobody could refuse him anything?
:00:14. > :00:17.Yes, I mean having lunch with him once and I thought I had got away
:00:18. > :00:23.with it, because any lunch you had with Nelson Mandela was expensive,
:00:24. > :00:26.because he was always having a charity there to try to raise money
:00:27. > :00:32.for. And I got right through to the last course and then he turned to me
:00:33. > :00:38.and said, last week I had lunch with Bill Gates he gave me $50 million,
:00:39. > :00:46.and I knew I was in trouble. Thank you very much, delighted now to be
:00:47. > :00:49.joined by the MP David Lamie and the chaplain to the House of Commons and
:00:50. > :00:52.the first black woman to hold the post. First of all both of you
:00:53. > :00:56.growing up knowing about Nelson Mandela, how important was it to
:00:57. > :00:59.black people to have somebody like Mandela, David? In the context of
:01:00. > :01:06.this country black people are arriving from the Caribbean, Africa,
:01:07. > :01:10.south Asia, they have been emancipated if you like. Escaped
:01:11. > :01:15.their colonial master, but there are issues in the inner city in Britain,
:01:16. > :01:19.certainly through the 70s and 80s, we are getting riots and a lot of
:01:20. > :01:24.depression in black communities, so the fact of Mandela being in prison,
:01:25. > :01:29.and of course we can't see him, you don't see him for 27 years an
:01:30. > :01:36.intense emotion in the black community. And when he comes out in
:01:37. > :01:43.1990 for so many of us, I grew up without a father and I remember his
:01:44. > :01:48.poster on my bedroom wall. Him and Bill Cosby, my proxy father figure!
:01:49. > :01:53.Just the tears and the emotion that something different might be
:01:54. > :01:59.possible. Relative to your life in a very isolated community for me in
:02:00. > :02:05.Tottenham. Relative to your parents' lives and what they have seen in
:02:06. > :02:09.relation to Guyana or Nigeria, but this moment when the world finally
:02:10. > :02:16.turns its back on this terrible apartheid system that of course
:02:17. > :02:23.Martin Luthur king had gotten rid in in America. What did you think? The
:02:24. > :02:27.first thing I want to say is the world has lost a true son in Nelson
:02:28. > :02:32.Mandela's passing. Growing up in Jamaica and in the education system
:02:33. > :02:35.there we are taught about our national heros. In a sense they have
:02:36. > :02:41.done marvellous things but they were in books. They weren't sort of real,
:02:42. > :02:47.they were real but not real. Nelson Mandela was real and so there was a
:02:48. > :02:52.sense of hope that here was someone who today, not hundreds of years or
:02:53. > :02:59.so many years back and on a poster, but here was someone who was real,
:03:00. > :03:04.who was fighting the dehumanisation of a people and not just any people
:03:05. > :03:12.but a people who looked like me. That was amazing. And the fact that
:03:13. > :03:17.he was just such a huge inspiration, a huge incompetence pier racial to
:03:18. > :03:23.us growing up. And even now on his release from prison, that day when
:03:24. > :03:29.he was released I was rotted in that -- rooted in that lounge, nothing
:03:30. > :03:34.was going to move me from there. I don't know all the words but I sang
:03:35. > :03:40.the South African anthem. I cried, I prayed, I sang. I danced, it was
:03:41. > :03:46.real. What about him as a model though. We talked. Much earlier
:03:47. > :03:52.about the enormous capacity for forgiveness? He obviously stands
:03:53. > :04:06.with Gandhi, Martin Luthur king, before them Abraham Lincoln, the
:04:07. > :04:11.difference is they were killed. He lives, he is that great hope that
:04:12. > :04:14.lives, and he governed his country and does it with peace and
:04:15. > :04:19.reconciliation. He demonstrates you can get justice but justice through
:04:20. > :04:24.peace. He stands then as the biggest figure of the 21st century. If you
:04:25. > :04:29.like Adolf Hitler was the worst figure of the 21st century, Mandela
:04:30. > :04:35.is the absolute contrast. This is a huge moment, a huge moment at the
:04:36. > :04:38.turn of the 21st century. His passing will not just be felt in
:04:39. > :04:44.South Africa, I'm getting emotional thinking about it too. It will be
:04:45. > :04:51.felt here greatly. I just hope and pray that the generosity of spirit
:04:52. > :04:56.that we saw in him, the spirit of justice and fairness and honesty,
:04:57. > :05:03.and all those things, that we will see that in all our leaders around
:05:04. > :05:10.the world. When did you see him? I think I first saw him in Parliament
:05:11. > :05:15.Square as a young MP, when he came to, we opened the statue for him in
:05:16. > :05:21.Parliament Square. And then a bit later there was a concert in Hyde
:05:22. > :05:26.Park and I saw him again. Don't ask me what I said because I could
:05:27. > :05:34.barely speak, he was this magnificent big figure, even as an
:05:35. > :05:38.elder man. He met Mrs Thatcher and did lots of things. There wasn't
:05:39. > :05:44.anybody he wouldn't meet. That was what people were saying earlier.
:05:45. > :05:49.Actually don't you choose my friends for me said Jesse Jackson, he said
:05:50. > :05:55.he would speak to whatever he wished after going to jail? I want to say
:05:56. > :06:03.as a Labour politician people like Frank Dobson and Dick Hayburn caught
:06:04. > :06:09.up in the antiapartheid movement, were real foot soldiers for Oliver
:06:10. > :06:12.Tambo, there were a Kenship for a whole generation of Labour
:06:13. > :06:18.politicians and the union movement, in huge solidarity with South Africa
:06:19. > :06:27.when others didn't want to even join the cause. I think it is important
:06:28. > :06:31.to remember that tonight a real struggle breaking out in society
:06:32. > :06:36.with songs and albums and a youth movement. But if we think back to
:06:37. > :06:41.the 1980s at moments in Britain when we felt divided, there were many
:06:42. > :06:46.foot olders campaigning and raising money in the Labour Party, and also
:06:47. > :06:57.in wider society, the churches, who tonight will feel close to Mandela
:06:58. > :07:02.because of the struggle. I called him a giant of a man, a peaceful and
:07:03. > :07:07.loving gianted. There are so many towns all over Britain who have
:07:08. > :07:12.Mandela Square or buildings, it is somebody that you come across,
:07:13. > :07:20.children know about him. Oh yes, we do. And not only did we sing the
:07:21. > :07:25.songs # Free Nelson Mandela
:07:26. > :07:29.We actually lived with the sense of hope, almost like a Messiah figure,
:07:30. > :07:35.in a sense, but not a distant one, one that was present and one that
:07:36. > :07:40.was real. I think for me, as a Christian, this sense of
:07:41. > :07:45.forgiveness, which is at the heart. I visited Robben Island back in
:07:46. > :07:51.2002, I think it was, I went to Robben Island and actually went
:07:52. > :07:55.inside the cell. The whole time I was there, for me it was a spiritual
:07:56. > :07:59.experience, and I remember there were tourists there taking
:08:00. > :08:04.photographs and I was feeling quite cross saying, you know the story of
:08:05. > :08:08.Moses by the burning bush, where he is told to stake his shoes off
:08:09. > :08:13.because he as standing on holy ground. I felt myself thinking stop
:08:14. > :08:23.taking the photographs, you are on holy ground, you know. I just hope
:08:24. > :08:29.that the world will look at Nelson Mandela's life and will pattern
:08:30. > :08:36.those qualities that he exhibited. That sense of dignity, of quiet
:08:37. > :08:51.dignity, not many people have that. No, and in that sense he was a
:08:52. > :08:57.humble, but regal figure in a sense. All generations have these figures.
:08:58. > :09:03.But I think Nelson Mandela crossed so many generations from lawyer to
:09:04. > :09:08.freedom fighter, imprisoned, we don't see him for 27 years, we just
:09:09. > :09:13.have that poster of him and he comes out as a much older man, that moved
:09:14. > :09:18.lots of people. And then when you talk about buildings named after him
:09:19. > :09:23.often that was an act of rebellion in Britain in the 1970s to do that.
:09:24. > :09:28.Then this universal statesman-like figure that has emerged in the last
:09:29. > :09:36.20 years or so. That is a huge span of change over that lifetime,
:09:37. > :09:42.dignity throughout, but a rage and anger for freedom, for justice and
:09:43. > :09:46.for peace, I think is essential to the man's personality. That whole
:09:47. > :09:50.idea that he made such a massive sacrifice, and his family made a
:09:51. > :09:56.sacrifice? A huge sack fireworks I listened earlier to his --
:09:57. > :10:00.sacrifice, I listened earlier to his daughter speaking and the sense of
:10:01. > :10:04.distance she was talking about. I thought what do you expect, you have
:10:05. > :10:08.locked this man away, emotions, all these things. The sacrifice he has
:10:09. > :10:24.made, the sacrifice of his family, for the world. He comes out of
:10:25. > :10:29.prison and straight into the world? Where does he get the time to love.
:10:30. > :10:32.I just hope not only South Africa but the world will see his sense of
:10:33. > :10:39.justice, his sense of compassion, and clearly even for a very long
:10:40. > :10:45.time when he is not the leader of South Africa, he's still concerned
:10:46. > :10:48.about the well being of people. As we have said earlier, and is
:10:49. > :10:52.prepared to stand up and discuss things that he absolutely disagrees
:10:53. > :11:03.with in South Africa. Challenges the status quo, whether Thabo Mbeki or
:11:04. > :11:07.the problems in the ANC? On HIV, domestically on the ANC, on the Iraq
:11:08. > :11:13.War, on a whole range of things he took very different views to other
:11:14. > :11:17.leaders both in his country and throughout. I think lining up behind
:11:18. > :11:22.what he saw as social justice wherever he found it. And this idea
:11:23. > :11:26.that he would be remembered, there would be this enormous outpouring
:11:27. > :11:31.from all over the world, and then South Africa needs to move on again.
:11:32. > :11:37.Yes, and South Africa is at a critical junction, because I was
:11:38. > :11:45.there about a year ago and the ANC has to make this transition from the
:11:46. > :11:49.party that fought, if you like for freedom to a governing force that
:11:50. > :11:53.can be seen to be there for everyone and not just for a single group of
:11:54. > :11:57.people. There are elements particularly youth and younger
:11:58. > :12:00.elements I think within South Africa and within the ANC that are
:12:01. > :12:08.frustrated with the lack of progress. And also in a sense moving
:12:09. > :12:12.from being a one-party state to a multiparty democracy, that is very
:12:13. > :12:16.fragile. This may in a sense, because it rekick-starting this idea
:12:17. > :12:23.of goodness coming out of this in South Africa? I hope it will, I hope
:12:24. > :12:33.it will, and the potential is there for life to grow from this death as
:12:34. > :12:37.it were. I hope that we will see the beginnings of other Mandelas. I was
:12:38. > :12:43.going to say because actually what he has is he's almost delivered a
:12:44. > :12:54.blueprint for modern leadership? It is quite a lot to live up to. I
:12:55. > :12:59.think leadership, yes, but 27 years in prison, denied that life is an
:13:00. > :13:04.extraordinary sacrifice to have made as an individual. No-one can relief
:13:05. > :13:13.that, and we don't want anyone to relief that, so in a sense -- relive
:13:14. > :13:20.that, and in a sense that is part of the 21 century for freedom. It is
:13:21. > :13:24.for women, people of colour, more latterly for gay men and women to
:13:25. > :13:28.self-lateralise to be who you want to be, and he's one of the big
:13:29. > :13:38.fathers of that fight. We take it for granted now, but for most of the
:13:39. > :13:42.century it was denied us. It must be also for white people, it must be a
:13:43. > :13:47.huge burden to walk around thinking you are the only thing that matters!
:13:48. > :13:51.You know. So, yes. Will you be doing special service tomorrow, presumably
:13:52. > :13:56.parishioners will come and talk to you? I hope that we will not just
:13:57. > :14:02.tomorrow, but for some time, you know, helping people to reflect on
:14:03. > :14:10.this loss in a way that is going to be constructive and creative. Again,
:14:11. > :14:15.an extraordinary funeral, he wants and will be buried in a small
:14:16. > :14:18.village. It is impossible to imagine not to have some massive memorial
:14:19. > :15:41.service for him? Absolutely, you would expect a freedom and justice
:15:42. > :15:47.Nelson Mandela was not just a hero of our time but a hero of all time.
:15:48. > :15:53.The first President of a free South Africa. My thoughts and prayers are
:15:54. > :15:57.with him and his family at this time, an extraordinary man. I'm one
:15:58. > :16:00.of the countless millions who drew inspiration from Nelson Mandela's
:16:01. > :16:06.life. My very first political action, the first thing I ever did
:16:07. > :16:12.that involved an issue or policy or politics was a protest against
:16:13. > :16:17.apartheid. I would study his words and his writings, the day he was
:16:18. > :16:21.released from prison he gave me a sense of what human beings can do
:16:22. > :16:27.when guided by their hopes and not their fears. Like so many around the
:16:28. > :16:35.globe I cannot fully imagine my own life without the example that Nelson
:16:36. > :16:40.Mandela set. I'm joined now by the founder of the Specials, and the
:16:41. > :16:44.BBC's Creative Director. First of all, it was Jew song, the song that
:16:45. > :16:57.we all know now? Free Nelson Mandela. It was, yeah, it had an
:16:58. > :17:04.effect, I wrote it when I went to his 65th anniversary party at the
:17:05. > :17:10.Alexandra Palace, a lot of people singing about him, and I was already
:17:11. > :17:13.working on a song, I had a bit of instrumental music and I put the
:17:14. > :17:20.lyrics to that, which was probably the key to it being so happy.
:17:21. > :17:26.Otherwise I would have probably written a dour ballad or something.
:17:27. > :17:32.Alan, those son sets, there was 19 -- consorts, it was 1988 and 1990
:17:33. > :17:37.when he came? The concert the catalyst was the song. And the
:17:38. > :17:45.promoter came to me and brought some, a senior, an ex-BBC person to
:17:46. > :17:51.add gravitas to the person and really said will you do this. We had
:17:52. > :17:55.to depoliticise it because it was the BC, remember the Thatcher --
:17:56. > :17:58.BBC, remember the Thatcher Government was still in power, and
:17:59. > :18:01.there was still a sense that South Africa, that movement, the ANC
:18:02. > :18:09.movement and the antiapartheid Government couldn't be supported in
:18:10. > :18:20.quite that way. But there was Trevor Huddleston. Let me bring you in, you
:18:21. > :18:25.met Nelson Mandela? Not in the same space, he was frail at the time and
:18:26. > :18:31.the unveiling of the statue in Parliament Square. We heard David
:18:32. > :18:36.Lammy saying he couldn't say anything because he was overcome,
:18:37. > :18:42.culturally what has been the importance of Nelson Mandela? Well,
:18:43. > :18:50.it is, that is a very big question, he's been the great poetic figure of
:18:51. > :18:56.our time. In terms of represented freedom, integrity, his beauty of
:18:57. > :19:03.spirit, his love of dance, his sense of humour and his dress style. He
:19:04. > :19:08.championed an of a an aesthetic. I see him as being not only an African
:19:09. > :19:13.statesman but the commensurate statesman of our time of. The reason
:19:14. > :19:17.I say this is because he demonstrated more than anybody else
:19:18. > :19:22.in our times how you transfigure the great burden of suffering and
:19:23. > :19:27.expectation into forgiveness, grace and dignity. He held the hand of
:19:28. > :19:33.South Africa through its most difficult time and calmed the nerves
:19:34. > :19:36.of those who were afraid of what might befall it during that
:19:37. > :19:40.transition. He helped the nation become itself. And he taught all of
:19:41. > :19:45.us around the world how to bear difficulty with dignity. And to work
:19:46. > :19:50.with De Klerk and Botha to work with these people? To work with difficult
:19:51. > :19:54.and tricky people. One of his greatest legacies, actually, is
:19:55. > :20:00.time. I always say he taught us the wise use of time. He, for many other
:20:01. > :20:05.people 27 years would have been a great reservoir of bitterness and
:20:06. > :20:10.anger and rage, actually the 27 years was converted very quietly
:20:11. > :20:14.into political power and great respect and a kind of iconic
:20:15. > :20:19.authority. He turned time into something else. You have to go back
:20:20. > :20:23.to the great duddist amongst to see anything like that and its effect on
:20:24. > :20:29.world politics. As you were growing up, did he have a big influence on
:20:30. > :20:45.you, his incarceration? The first time I heard about him was his 65th
:20:46. > :20:50.birthday. Someone did a survey and they couldn't find Nelson Mandela's
:20:51. > :20:54.name in the Houses of Parliament but his name was starting to come out.
:20:55. > :21:00.If you think about the global audience. That was 600 million. We
:21:01. > :21:04.say now Geldof, all the things that have gone after, that was the
:21:05. > :21:07.revolutionary, to bring the world together on television to support
:21:08. > :21:11.him? We live in the world of the internet now and it is not so
:21:12. > :21:18.surprising that people can conGLE gate in that way -- congregate in
:21:19. > :21:22.that way. But to bring together 600 people, and the amazing thing about
:21:23. > :21:26.it is it grew, it started, someone would say yes and someone else
:21:27. > :21:30.would. Even for the BBC it was apolitical. Do you remember that
:21:31. > :21:36.day, the 1988 concert? Yes I do, I do, I watched it on TV, I couldn't
:21:37. > :21:41.afford to be there. For me it was a moment of great unity. One just felt
:21:42. > :21:44.even in your little room you felt you were connecting with a great
:21:45. > :21:49.movement all over the world. A great groundswell of desire to bring about
:21:50. > :21:57.this change and to free Nelson Mandela. It was one of those moments
:21:58. > :22:00.branded in one's memory in one's time here on the planet. You were up
:22:01. > :22:05.dancing with everyone? I was dancing in my little bedsit, yes. Thank you
:22:06. > :22:09.all very much indeed. That's all from this extended programme. We
:22:10. > :22:18.leave you with footage from the film about Nelson Mandela, starring Idris
:22:19. > :22:21.Elba, which had the UK premier scheduled tonight. I have cherished
:22:22. > :22:25.the idea of a free democratic society where all persons live
:22:26. > :22:36.together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which
:22:37. > :22:38.I hope to live for and achieve. But, if needs be it is