:00:07. > :00:11.This programme contains some strong language.
:00:12. > :00:16.They were two iconic world leaders who spent the closing years of the
:00:17. > :00:19.20th century in charge of the respective countries. Tonight Bill
:00:20. > :00:23.Clinton speaks for the first time since Nelson Mandela's death, paying
:00:24. > :00:27.a moving and eloquent tribute to the fellow politician who became a
:00:28. > :00:33.friend. When he smiled at you, if you looked in his eyes you knew he
:00:34. > :00:40.was not just smiling, he was looking in your soul. Searching around for
:00:41. > :00:44.what was really going on. We were arrested, there appeared no legal
:00:45. > :00:50.reason and eventually leased. And Michael Burke, the BBC's man in 80s
:00:51. > :00:53.apartheid South Africa charts Nelson Mandela as life and legacy. We will
:00:54. > :00:57.hear from Nadine Gordimer, the lifetime friend of Nelson Mandela,
:00:58. > :01:02.who was there as he was handed his prison sentence. And, is this
:01:03. > :01:06.devisive figure the future of South Africa. We are a Government in
:01:07. > :01:15.waiting and I'm the leader of that Government in waiting. We shall
:01:16. > :01:21.fulfil where President Madiba left. Today Britain stands united in
:01:22. > :01:27.respect. In the 1980s Nelson Mandela divided this country. The UK's
:01:28. > :01:31.former man in Pretoria, and Labour MP, Diane Abbot reflect on the time.
:01:32. > :01:44.Is the UK's economy really motoring, the Newsnight Robin Reliant is fired
:01:45. > :01:47.up. Good evening, flags and cities across the globe are flying at half
:01:48. > :01:51.mast, and leaders and countries all over the world have spoken of a
:01:52. > :01:56.giant among men, an outstanding politician, an African son and hero.
:01:57. > :02:02.From the Pope who paid tribute to Nulecit steadfast commitment in
:02:03. > :02:06.promoting the human dignity of all citizens, to the Cuban state
:02:07. > :02:11.newspaper who wrote that his legacy will continue to inspire future
:02:12. > :02:15.generations of revolutionaries. Everyone has something to say about
:02:16. > :02:20.Nelson Mandela. Not least former US President, Bill Clinton, who earlier
:02:21. > :02:22.today granted Newsnight his first interview since Nelson Mandela's
:02:23. > :02:29.death. One of the things I noticed yesterday, everybody talked about
:02:30. > :02:34.what a magnificent example he was and both giving up his anger to
:02:35. > :02:39.govern inclusively and also leaving power, but he was actually a very
:02:40. > :02:43.good President, he was a faithful representative of all of his people
:02:44. > :02:49.and of his nation in the national interest. And I thought it was
:02:50. > :02:53.amazing given how long he had been in prison how quickly he got up to
:02:54. > :02:57.speed. He made a good decision to keep the people in the Government
:02:58. > :03:00.around him, keep them serving while he brought in some of his own
:03:01. > :03:06.people. He really did a good job as President. I loved dealing with him.
:03:07. > :03:09.It was all business. We would do our business and be friends again, even
:03:10. > :03:14.if we were just on the phone. We would spend ten or 15 minutes
:03:15. > :03:20.talking about personal things, but always after business first. Do you
:03:21. > :03:26.think you learned a lot from him? Oh a lot. He was uncommonly kind to me.
:03:27. > :03:30.The closer we got personally, although as I said we continued to
:03:31. > :03:37.have arguments, on a couple of occasions we had very sharp
:03:38. > :03:45.arguments. About what? We argued about the chairmanship of South
:03:46. > :03:50.Africa from the land mine issue, I wanted to do more than all the other
:03:51. > :03:56.countries in the world to get rid of land mines and some people drew the
:03:57. > :04:01.treaty to rid of the antitank mines so only the European ones would be
:04:02. > :04:07.available for purchase, it made me mad. And Mandela's apppointee was
:04:08. > :04:10.the chairmanship. We said we wouldn't change it once we got the
:04:11. > :04:16.final draft and I'm not going to change it. I also used to rib him
:04:17. > :04:20.about Cuba. One of the things I really admired about him is he was
:04:21. > :04:24.fan natically loyal after he became President to the countries that
:04:25. > :04:37.supported him and the ANC while in prison. I remember one night we were
:04:38. > :04:40.overries that supported him and the ANC while in prison. I remember one
:04:41. > :04:43.night we were over there seven years ago for his birthday, and I took my
:04:44. > :04:45.whole American delegation there, we participated and raised money for
:04:46. > :04:51.the foundation. We had a little auction, one of the things auctioned
:04:52. > :04:55.was a valuable bottle of rum that Fidel Castro had given him. Some
:04:56. > :04:59.people were there and they said President Clinton you should buy
:05:00. > :05:03.this in honour of Mandela, so I purchased it at auction and then I
:05:04. > :05:07.had to give it away before I came back to the United States because I
:05:08. > :05:14.didn't want to violate the embargo. When you think of his many
:05:15. > :05:24.achievements, people talk about his great capacity for For giveness, do
:05:25. > :05:28.you think that turned -- for he forgiveness, was that his strength
:05:29. > :05:33.with the truth and reconciliation? I said how do you do this had you to
:05:34. > :05:38.hate those people, with look what they did to you. He said I was young
:05:39. > :05:44.and strong in prison and for 11 years I lived on my hatred. And one
:05:45. > :05:48.day I was breaking rocks and thinking all they had done to me and
:05:49. > :05:52.taken from me, they had abused me emotionally and physically, and
:05:53. > :05:57.taken way the right for me to see my children glow up and eventually
:05:58. > :06:01.destroyed my marriage, I realised they could take everything except my
:06:02. > :06:06.mind and my heart. Those things I decided not to give away. He looked
:06:07. > :06:11.at me because in the middle of all the fun I had with Congress, he
:06:12. > :06:17.smiled and said "neither should you". He was always just saying
:06:18. > :06:21.stuff like that. Just bending over backwards trying to be a true
:06:22. > :06:24.friend. Did he talk to you about that sadness though, that must have
:06:25. > :06:28.accompanied him through his life about the sacrifice that he and his
:06:29. > :06:32.family had made, and he lost his personal life. He lost a close
:06:33. > :06:38.relationship with many of his family members, that must have troubled him
:06:39. > :06:44.deeply? It did bother him, but he had an iron will and he realised
:06:45. > :06:51.that his will first needed to be applied to the mind and heart he had
:06:52. > :06:56.saved, and he really disciplined himself to get over both anger and
:06:57. > :07:01.regret in a hurry. You could see it, if you knew him well and you spent a
:07:02. > :07:05.lot of time with him, you could see these things come up. I'm one of the
:07:06. > :07:11.few people, I guess, that ever saw him really mad. He was even really
:07:12. > :07:16.mad at me a time or two. He would get over T you could see his mind
:07:17. > :07:20.kick in, his iron will, he knew he had to live in the present and think
:07:21. > :07:24.of the future. It was liberating, just like the forgiveness was
:07:25. > :07:28.liberating, he realised without for giveness he would -- forgiveness he
:07:29. > :07:33.would never be free or make other people free, or give them permission
:07:34. > :07:38.to forgive and trust. You know trust is something it is in pretty short
:07:39. > :07:45.supply in the world today. Mandela had it a million-fold, because he
:07:46. > :07:54.was trusting in people they thought I can't believe's trusting us, but
:07:55. > :08:04.he did. Unlike Martin Luther king, he He -- king, he embraced armed
:08:05. > :08:11.struggle, was that a conflict? He had within the country, in my mind
:08:12. > :08:15.serves me well, the United States was part of an armed struggle when
:08:16. > :08:24.part of King George's empire. His view was at the time there was no
:08:25. > :08:28.way Way out, and he was young -- no way out, and he was young, and the
:08:29. > :08:35.people of South Africa had been enslaved and in servitude in a
:08:36. > :08:41.violent and repressive way for a long time. But something burned in
:08:42. > :08:45.him when he basically began to grow spiritually. After he had been in
:08:46. > :08:50.prison more than a year, and he realised that the ultimate victory
:08:51. > :08:54.would be for the people of South Africa to be in a democracy that had
:08:55. > :09:01.a chance to work, that had a chaps to function. And that in order to do
:09:02. > :09:05.that, he had to demonstrate a whole given kind of leadership and adopt a
:09:06. > :09:14.different strategy. I think he had come to that while he was in prison.
:09:15. > :09:18.Prison. I imagine there will be a state funeral and you will be going
:09:19. > :09:23.to that, if you are called upon to speak, what will you say you will
:09:24. > :09:30.miss about him the most? I will miss the light that he caused to come on
:09:31. > :09:35.in the lives of everybody he touched. When you were around
:09:36. > :09:41.Mandela you wanted to be a bigger person. You knew you could be better
:09:42. > :09:44.than you were, you knew that you had to concentrate on the big things,
:09:45. > :09:48.and let little things go, and you had to overcome your own
:09:49. > :09:55.resentments. I watched him do it, and almost as if I were inside his
:09:56. > :09:59.brain for all those years we became friends. Both when he was President
:10:00. > :10:04.and later when we worked on AIDS together for years and years. I will
:10:05. > :10:10.miss that. When he smiled at you, if you looked in his eyes you knew he
:10:11. > :10:16.was not just smiling, he was looking in your soul. Searching around for
:10:17. > :10:20.what was really going on. And figuring it out and he knew just
:10:21. > :10:24.what to say and how to say it. That was an uncommon gift that he gave to
:10:25. > :10:28.everyone he cared about. I will miss that. And people all over the world
:10:29. > :10:33.could see it. They could see it in the way he carried himself and the
:10:34. > :10:36.way he spoke. It wasn't that he stopped being a citizen, that he
:10:37. > :10:40.stopped having convictions on the issues, that he stopped having
:10:41. > :10:44.disagreements even with his friends, it was that there was a bigger
:10:45. > :10:51.reality, that our common humanity is the thing that matters most, and the
:10:52. > :10:56.thing that ought to animate all our endeavours, personally and publicly.
:10:57. > :11:01.Thank you so much. Thank you. Bill Clinton speaking to me earlier from
:11:02. > :11:05.his home in upstate New York. What was it like living and working in
:11:06. > :11:11.apartheid South Africa as an outsider? Michael Burke was the
:11:12. > :11:15.BBC's South Africa correspondent from 1983-1987. Newsnight asked him
:11:16. > :11:19.to revisit some of his own reports from the down paint a picture of
:11:20. > :11:22.Nelson Mandela and his -- from the country to paint a picture of Nelson
:11:23. > :11:28.Mandela and his life. Nelson Mandela lived and died in the
:11:29. > :11:33.suburb of Houghton. Most of his neighbours who turned out to mourn
:11:34. > :11:38.him are white, but it is economics not apartheid now. They were
:11:39. > :11:44.grieving a convicted terrorist who turned their world upside down but
:11:45. > :11:48.also it stayed the same. It could have been so different. When I went
:11:49. > :11:54.to the 1980s South Africa was trapped between revolution, the
:11:55. > :11:57.whites were trying to preserve things, and the blacks were
:11:58. > :12:02.beginning to lose patience. The young were particularly angry, the
:12:03. > :12:09.lid was about to come off. It was a terribly violent country. Brutal
:12:10. > :12:14.undercurrents flowed through the cultures of both races, it wasn't
:12:15. > :12:22.just apartheid that brought them to the surface. In Soweto, 25 domestic
:12:23. > :12:33.murders a weekend were routine. Most whites seemed to have guns and few
:12:34. > :12:38.inhibitions about using them. The security forces had few restraints.
:12:39. > :12:46.As the children rioted, they were ambushed. At least three coloured
:12:47. > :12:50.youths were killed outright before they could take cover. The police
:12:51. > :12:56.said they were using bird shot, designed to wound not kill, but at
:12:57. > :12:59.short range the ammunition was bill dead low and nearby buildings were
:13:00. > :13:03.peppered with gun shots. More than 20 were wounded, three of them
:13:04. > :13:08.seriously, many others were taken secretly to be treated in private
:13:09. > :13:12.for fear of arrest. Our cameras recorded it in all its brutal
:13:13. > :13:26.intensity and sent the pictures around the world. They hated us. You
:13:27. > :13:31.people get out now very quickly OK. Because you people are the locking
:13:32. > :13:34.cause of this now, get out. The battlegrounds of apartheid were the
:13:35. > :13:39.townships, where blacks were lucky to be allowed to live, though still
:13:40. > :13:51.as foreigners in their own land. 12 miles up the road and a world away
:13:52. > :13:55.was where I lived. Our white suburbs were dedicated to the pursuit of
:13:56. > :14:01.graciousness, when our blacks were hungry we didn't tell them to eat
:14:02. > :14:06.cake, we ate it ourselves. This banquet in aid of the starving was
:14:07. > :14:15.held with the country in a state of merge -- emergency and the townships
:14:16. > :15:01.in a mess. There were more important things to talk about. What are
:15:02. > :15:05.exercise It is a more complicated issue than most people realise, the
:15:06. > :15:11.central truth is this is apartheid, and this isn't changing. The white
:15:12. > :15:16.conscripts army crushed the township uprising, while we reporters were
:15:17. > :15:21.gagged by a state of emergency. There had been no real organisation,
:15:22. > :15:25.the ANC leaders in exile and in jail were on the sidelines. By now the
:15:26. > :15:28.world had turned its back on white South Africa, credit of both kinds
:15:29. > :15:44.were running out. The unthinkable had become the inevitable.
:15:45. > :15:50.Good evening, Nelson Mandela walked away from 27 years in prison today
:15:51. > :15:56.after 10,000 days in jail the world's most famous prisoner walks
:15:57. > :16:01.out through the prison gates. He tells a mass rally in Cape Town
:16:02. > :16:12.sanctions must remain, the armed struggle must go on. The armed
:16:13. > :16:18.struggle and the reason we are in it still exists today. He emerged into
:16:19. > :16:23.a world sanctfied by suffering, a politician that never had to bother
:16:24. > :16:27.with the messy compromises of politics. All those hopes and fears
:16:28. > :16:34.invested in a man almost everybody was seeing for the first time. He
:16:35. > :16:40.was faithed for his dignity and his grace d feted for his dignity and
:16:41. > :16:44.graze. He was a wooden speaker with little taste for administration,
:16:45. > :16:50.nobody else could carry the burden of expectation. Will they expect
:16:51. > :16:55.things quickly and is that a burden to you? It is an expectation, and
:16:56. > :16:58.justified. In township, where the sheet flowed in the streets, and the
:16:59. > :17:03.wagon offered one of the few jobs around, they expected miracles. The
:17:04. > :17:07.ANC promised there will be housing, schooling, education, there will be
:17:08. > :17:11.that and that and that. Will you give them one year, two years, three
:17:12. > :17:15.years, four years? After the 27th I would give them two months. Life
:17:16. > :17:19.mostly did get better, but the economy has stalled, half the young
:17:20. > :17:23.people are unemployed, the ANC has grown fat on 20 years of
:17:24. > :17:28.unchallenged rule, and worries about the young radical left. But it still
:17:29. > :17:35.seems a miracle. Mandela is dead, but the dream is still alive. As
:17:36. > :17:41.Michael Burke has just said, for a younger generation of South Africans
:17:42. > :17:45.the hope and idealism occasioned by Nelson Mandela's presidency have
:17:46. > :17:49.given way in recent years to new political challenges, not least the
:17:50. > :17:51.future of the ANC, accused by some who have failed do enough to close
:17:52. > :17:55.the yawning gap in the country between rich and poor. What will
:17:56. > :17:59.Mandela's death mean for the democracy he created. A little
:18:00. > :18:08.earlier I spoke to political commentator, Jack Malvern in Justice
:18:09. > :18:13.Malala and talked about the mood of change today. It is amazing in the
:18:14. > :18:16.sense here you had a nation who was waiting for this to happen, andent
:18:17. > :18:23.the news came it was a bit of a shock. We all were hit, we sort of
:18:24. > :18:30.stopped and reflected and it was a shock. Today it is turned from pain,
:18:31. > :18:35.reminiscence, nostalgia to celebration, wow, Nelson Mandela
:18:36. > :18:39.lived among us and this is, this has been, we have been touched amazingly
:18:40. > :18:46.by a fantastic amazing human being. So, yes, it has moved, and if you
:18:47. > :18:50.look at the images this evening of people flocking to Nelson Mandela's
:18:51. > :18:55.house and his old home in Soweto, it is sort of let's go and be part of
:18:56. > :19:00.history. Let's go touch a bit of it. So it is celebration, the shock has
:19:01. > :19:05.sort of worn off and it is wow, he was here. But do you think that
:19:06. > :19:10.Nelson Mandela, as a kind of a giant of the ANC, with him gone,
:19:11. > :19:14.symbolically, will the ANC change, because the ANC itself is under a
:19:15. > :19:19.lot of pressure, it has been in power for 18 years, do you think we
:19:20. > :19:22.will see a big upheaval in the political landscape? I think South
:19:23. > :19:27.Africa is at a bit of a tipping point in the political sphere.
:19:28. > :19:31.Firstly the ANC that we have today is not the ANC of Nelson Mandela, a
:19:32. > :19:36.lot of people say look at the head of the ANC, President Zuma, who
:19:37. > :19:42.announced President Mandela's death last night. This is a man who is
:19:43. > :19:51.mired in controversy right now, remember he's built himself a DLO
:19:52. > :19:57.$20 million house in his home village, and many people are saying
:19:58. > :20:01.how can you build a $20 million house? Right from the top many
:20:02. > :20:05.officials are mired in corruption allegation, a lot of people are
:20:06. > :20:08.asking questions about what this ANC is like. Then there is new players
:20:09. > :20:13.coming on to the political field, a lot of people are saying, well, the
:20:14. > :20:19.ANC in this election will not enjoy the two thirds majority it enjoyed
:20:20. > :20:24.in 1999 and 2004, it will not enjoy the support it enjoyed in 2009, that
:20:25. > :20:30.support will go below 60%. Remember it is at 65. 9% right now. And many,
:20:31. > :20:36.many people are saying there will be challengers to the ANC, many of them
:20:37. > :20:43.are coming through a former ANC firebrand who has started his own
:20:44. > :20:46.party. He's speaking the language of Robert Mugabe, nationalise and land
:20:47. > :20:50.compensation. These are some of the challenges that face the ANC. The
:20:51. > :20:54.key question about Nelson Mandela's passing is whether people will
:20:55. > :20:59.remember Nelson Mandela and vote on the basis of loving Nelson Mandela
:21:00. > :21:02.and continue to vote for the ANC. That is a big factor in the
:21:03. > :22:20.elections which may happen in the next was Did people understood what
:22:21. > :22:24.President Mandela was, a revolutiony? We understood what he
:22:25. > :22:27.was, President Mandela was a fighter, a militant radical young
:22:28. > :22:31.person, and we have had an opportunity some of us to serve in
:22:32. > :22:37.the same organisation, he served, some of us had an opportunity to
:22:38. > :22:45.occupy the same position President Mandela occupied when he was a young
:22:46. > :22:50.activist in the African National Congress. So therefore, in
:22:51. > :22:55.everything else we do, we seek to be like him and we understand what he
:22:56. > :23:00.represented as a father of the nation. Nelson Mandela would never
:23:01. > :23:07.have surely agreed with your policy of seizing white farms? President
:23:08. > :23:10.Mandela believed in the freedom charter, the freedom charter of
:23:11. > :23:17.which he was a volunteer says the land shall be shared amongst those
:23:18. > :23:27.who work it. And he believed in the people of South Africa sharing the
:23:28. > :23:32.land. He actually has fought for the reinstatement of the land into the
:23:33. > :23:37.hands of the rightful owners. Yours are the politics of Robert Mugabe,
:23:38. > :23:44.not Nelson Mandela? No, no, no, no. Our politics are inspired by both.
:23:45. > :23:50.Remember President Mugabe and President Mandela are the products
:23:51. > :23:59.of the same youth formation. Both of them served in the ANC youth league.
:24:00. > :24:05.Therefore their struggle has been the restoration of dignity to the
:24:06. > :24:10.African people. We think that they remain an inspiration to many young
:24:11. > :24:15.people who are actively participating in the struggle for
:24:16. > :24:19.the restoration of the dignity of the oppressed African masses in
:24:20. > :24:23.southern Africa. You are facing charges of fraud and money
:24:24. > :24:27.laundering, corruption charges, these are surely not the attributes
:24:28. > :24:32.of a leader, somebody that wants to be President of South Africa? Look
:24:33. > :24:41.those charges are manufactured by those who cannot merge our political
:24:42. > :24:46.ideas. They are suffering from poverty of ideas and as a result
:24:47. > :24:51.because they are unable to defeat us ideolgically, and theologically,
:24:52. > :24:56.they are now opting for monkey tricks and manipulating state
:24:57. > :25:01.institutions to settle political differences. I have no worries, I
:25:02. > :25:08.actually believe that within a short space of time, before we know it,
:25:09. > :25:10.these charges will be cleared by the national prosecuting authority. Are
:25:11. > :25:15.you contesting seats in the elections in April next year, and if
:25:16. > :25:32.you are, do you expect to win and will that be a step on the road to
:25:33. > :25:34.President President Malema? We are contesting elections and we are a
:25:35. > :25:40.Government in waiting and I'm a President in waiting, we will
:25:41. > :25:45.continue where President Mandela left. We will continue with the
:25:46. > :25:49.struggle for total emancipation of our people. We are confident we are
:25:50. > :25:54.a viable alternative here in South Africa, because those who are in
:25:55. > :26:00.power today have undermined the legacy of President Mandela, they
:26:01. > :26:04.are now a self-serving people, they are stealing from the poor to
:26:05. > :26:09.benefit themselves and their immediate ones. We want to undermine
:26:10. > :26:13.that by restoring thing willcy of President Mandela, where we bring
:26:14. > :26:25.about an accountable Government which will deliver to the poorest of
:26:26. > :26:28.the poor. Which will deliver to the poorest of the poor. The release of
:26:29. > :26:33.Nelson Mandela came after a decade of international pressure. In this
:26:34. > :26:36.country a generation of campaigners organised boycotts and protested
:26:37. > :26:41.outside the South African embassy. Six years later tens of thousands
:26:42. > :26:45.greeted Mandela, by then South African President on a famous walk
:26:46. > :26:48.about in Brixton. What does he mean to today's generation of British
:26:49. > :26:55.teenagers born in the years after his release. We went back to Brixton
:26:56. > :27:00.to find out. It was like the biggest popstar the world had ever seen
:27:01. > :27:04.coming to London and Brixton. People were unbelievably excited. There
:27:05. > :27:08.were thousands of people lining the streets and barricades all down
:27:09. > :27:14.here. The sound systems were playing, and people really, really
:27:15. > :27:18.excited. We had people in tears. The crowd danced Calypso, as Nelson
:27:19. > :27:23.Mandela turned up in Brixton. For many it was a symbol that something
:27:24. > :27:27.was changing, not just in South Africa but this country as well. Mel
:27:28. > :27:40.Milbourne was forced to flee South Africa as a 20-year-old, and this
:27:41. > :27:45.Lela Kogbara was a campaigner, both were instrumental in bringing him
:27:46. > :27:47.here. It was a thank you for all we did to put the pressure on the South
:27:48. > :27:51.African Government, it was instrumental to bringing apartheid
:27:52. > :27:54.down. My father being white, my mother being black, being in South
:27:55. > :27:58.African under the apartheid laws they could not be a legaln'tity, the
:27:59. > :28:02.result of which the house was raided, my mother was forced to
:28:03. > :28:09.leave the country and I then followed subsequently to London. A
:28:10. > :28:15.three-minute walk down the road, a new generation born around the time
:28:16. > :28:20.Mandela toured this part of London and making an on-line magazine. We
:28:21. > :28:32.brought them together to see how attitudes had changedtime Mandela
:28:33. > :28:34.toured this part of London and making an on-line magazine. We
:28:35. > :28:37.brought them together to see how attitudes had changed. I got on a
:28:38. > :28:41.bus and I went to the front of the, but and the bus driver said you have
:28:42. > :28:43.to go to the back. I said why the back because I'm comfortable here,
:28:44. > :28:46.he said because you are black you have to sit in the black. I can't
:28:47. > :28:49.understand how anyone would deal with that. If someone told me I
:28:50. > :28:51.couldn't be in a shop or place or bus because I was a certain colour,
:28:52. > :28:54.I would not tolerate it, I'm programmed to think, sorry if I need
:28:55. > :28:58.or want to be here I can be here, you are not going to stop me from
:28:59. > :29:01.being in a place because of the colour of my skin, it is ridiculous
:29:02. > :29:05.to me. I don't understand it. Me personally I'm from a family where
:29:06. > :29:09.my grandmother is white, but I have got black family, I have white
:29:10. > :29:13.family. To me I grew up never thinking of it as something
:29:14. > :29:17.important, until I got to a certain age it became a lot more apparent.
:29:18. > :29:21.And I think that's the important thing about things like apartheid,
:29:22. > :29:25.people like Nelson Mandela, he broke down those barriers. You are made to
:29:26. > :29:28.feel in a kind of ostracised because of the colour of your skin, it
:29:29. > :29:32.happens in so many different contexts. Again it is not apartheid
:29:33. > :29:37.on that level, but it is still, there is some residue of that we do
:29:38. > :29:41.still see. That's our generation's fight. So Lela, you were quite
:29:42. > :29:46.involved in the antiapartheid movement in the 1980s, what did
:29:47. > :29:51.Nelson Mandela mean to you back then? I felt angry, I was really,
:29:52. > :29:56.really angry as a young black person in this country, and I just couldn't
:29:57. > :30:00.imagine why you would have a system like apartheid. That was the main
:30:01. > :30:05.thing, it wasn't this big peaceful love-in, at the time, and even when
:30:06. > :30:10.Mandela was released and he was preaching peace at one point I
:30:11. > :30:13.thought hang on a minute, do we really, why don't we punish these
:30:14. > :30:17.people for what they have done. I think one of his best legacies is
:30:18. > :30:22.the fact that he chose a path of peace. Is Nelson Mandela then still
:30:23. > :30:27.relevant to you and your generation today? 100% and he always will be.
:30:28. > :30:31.When he passed I was kind of heard the news on Twitter, he spent his
:30:32. > :30:36.whole life fighting for us, it is our generation's turn now and it is
:30:37. > :30:43.our obligation, it is what we are meant to be doing to make sure that
:30:44. > :30:47.his word is never stopped getting retweeted and favourited and spread
:30:48. > :30:52.all around the world. In the 1980s when Margaret Thatcher was at the
:30:53. > :30:56.helm, attitudes to Nelson Mandela's incarceration and apartheid was not
:30:57. > :30:59.as they are now. There wassam bitch lens about the armed struggle and
:31:00. > :31:04.divisions about sanctions on the left and right. Diane Abbot was
:31:05. > :31:12.elected Britain's first black MP at the height of the furore, and Lord
:31:13. > :31:28.Renwick from the late 1980s was there. Now French the Daily Mail to
:31:29. > :31:34.the Mirror is lawing Nelson Mandela. It is extraordinary, some Tory
:31:35. > :31:39.leaders were saying Nelson Mandela should be hanged and Margaret
:31:40. > :31:44.Thatcher said a the ANC was a typical terrorist organisation and
:31:45. > :31:51.anyone who said they would run South Africa was living in cuckoo hand.
:31:52. > :31:55.She was lukewarm about sanctions? She put in oil and other sanctions,
:31:56. > :32:00.she thought it was complete nonsense to cut off air links and put
:32:01. > :32:05.sanctions on agricultural exports which put tens of thousands of black
:32:06. > :32:09.South Africans out of work with no alternative employment and no social
:32:10. > :32:15.safety net. But I was in the middle of this. Even though what you would
:32:16. > :32:18.say, obviously Nelson Mandela, but black activists were saying put the
:32:19. > :32:23.sanctions on? Many of them were, absolutely. I was right in the
:32:24. > :32:27.middle of this, I was her envoy to Pretoria, my instructions were
:32:28. > :32:31.clear, To do everything I could to help get Nelson Mandela out of jail.
:32:32. > :32:35.Now as long as Botha was there we had no charges when De Klerk took
:32:36. > :32:40.over, he was a friend of mine and an admirer of her's. At midnight on the
:32:41. > :32:45.night before he made his speech unbanning the ANC he telephoned me
:32:46. > :32:50.and he said you can tell your Prime Minister she will not be
:32:51. > :32:54.disappointed. That was very much Mrs Thatcher's influence, do you accept
:32:55. > :32:56.that? That is very touching but getting Nelson Mandela out of jail
:32:57. > :33:01.is one thing, defeating apartheid was another. Denis Thatcher, who I
:33:02. > :33:06.think very often reflected Mrs Thatcher's real views, used to call
:33:07. > :33:33.South Africa "God's own country", WLFS the the If Mrs Thatcher was a
:33:34. > :33:39.supporter of the struggle she kept it quiet at the time? I don't agree
:33:40. > :33:45.with Diane and neither did Nelson Mandela. When he was released, I
:33:46. > :33:48.used to see him every single week, we had to train his bodies guards
:33:49. > :33:51.and look at the security around his house and helped in negotiations
:33:52. > :33:55.with the Government. He didn't want to fight with Mrs Thatcher, what he
:33:56. > :33:59.wanted to know with me, and he said I was the adviser on this, was how
:34:00. > :34:04.to get her on his side. When I came to the meeting with her I was there,
:34:05. > :34:08.and I told her you mustn't interrupt him. And she didn't interrupt him
:34:09. > :34:12.for a whole hour. Is that very unusual for her? Indeed it was, as
:34:13. > :34:17.he told her all about the struggle with human rights, and exactly as I
:34:18. > :34:21.told him she would, at the end of that she said we support you on all
:34:22. > :34:28.of that, but stop all the nonsense about nationalising the banks and
:34:29. > :34:30.the mines. So what you are essentially saying it was the
:34:31. > :34:36.politics of the free market that dictated the approach? No, she
:34:37. > :34:42.thought having met him that he was, he had exactly the same effect on
:34:43. > :34:44.her as everybody else, she was immensely impressed, but she thought
:34:45. > :34:50.that he didn't know much about economics. The meeting on went on so
:34:51. > :34:55.long. So you would say that was patronising? To be honest she didn't
:34:56. > :35:01.think many people knew much about economics, that was one of our
:35:02. > :35:05.characteristics, the anti--apartheid struggle was a struggle of the
:35:06. > :35:10.generation, there was a dividing line and those who wanted to bring
:35:11. > :35:17.down party. You think it is a rewriting of history? I think so,
:35:18. > :35:21.they can do, but those of us who were active at the time understood
:35:22. > :35:28.where Mrs Thatcher and a lot of MPs stood. It is so strange to hear them
:35:29. > :35:33.they loved Nelson Mandela and hated apartheid, it didn't look like it at
:35:34. > :35:38.the time? Diane won't believe this but we wanted the same objective. At
:35:39. > :35:40.the end of the meeting he walked out into Downing Street and thanked her
:35:41. > :35:45.for everything she had done to help secure his release. He knew exactly
:35:46. > :35:53.what they were doing, because I was able to tell him so in prison. Thank
:35:54. > :35:56.you very much. Now that the dust has settled and George Osborne's big day
:35:57. > :36:00.out, the Autumn Statement can be surveyed with both the benefit of a
:36:01. > :36:05.little distance and the interpretation of the Institute of
:36:06. > :36:08.Fiscal Studies with follows the Autumn Statement as night follows
:36:09. > :36:12.day, growth is up and benefits bill down, but how does it feel for you
:36:13. > :36:18.the people are you better off. The Tories say yes, and Labour no, and
:36:19. > :36:26.the IFS is with Labour on this one. Is the economy motoring again? If
:36:27. > :36:30.this little Robin Reliant were the economy, it is nippier than we
:36:31. > :36:32.thought. It had dodgy years but picking up speed. Today the
:36:33. > :36:37.Chancellor's claim that we are feeling the benefit of that was
:36:38. > :36:41.challenged. This is how the official forecast for economic growth has
:36:42. > :36:49.changed in eight months. This year from 0. 6%-1. 4%, and next year from
:36:50. > :36:54.1. 8%-2. 4%. Just six months ago it looked as though we were stalling,
:36:55. > :36:58.black smoke out the back of the exhaust, we looked like a write-off,
:36:59. > :37:04.now we are cruising along at speed. We are the fastest-growing major
:37:05. > :37:09.economy. And the faster growth is driving the deficit down as tax and
:37:10. > :37:14.VAT is rolling in, less is being spent on benefits. But are we
:37:15. > :37:19.feeling the recovery? Labour's claim is working people are on average
:37:20. > :37:23.?1,600 worse off than when David Cameron took power. Yesterday George
:37:24. > :37:29.Osborne seemed to refute that. And yes, real household disposable
:37:30. > :37:31.income is rising. But today the independent Institute for Fiscal
:37:32. > :37:36.Studies said the Chancellor's numbers didn't show quite what they
:37:37. > :37:42.seemed to. The real disposable income is forecast to have increased
:37:43. > :37:46.by 0. 5% in 2015, but the population is increasing so the income per
:37:47. > :37:49.person is forecast to fall very slightly, which might seem at odds
:37:50. > :37:54.with what George Osborne has been saying. According to the measure of
:37:55. > :37:59.household disposable income per person, incomes in 2016 will be very
:38:00. > :38:03.little higher than in 2006, that is ten years without growth. So now
:38:04. > :38:06.we're in the City, close to the Bank of England, and the trouble with the
:38:07. > :38:13.City is, as soon as the car starts to get going, it starts to fret that
:38:14. > :38:17.it's going to overheat. And then the Bank of England might slam on the
:38:18. > :38:20.brakes. The bank said interest rates won't rise while unemployment is
:38:21. > :38:26.above 7%. So how soon might it fall below that. At the budget in March
:38:27. > :38:29.the forecast that was it would take three years. Yesterday the office
:38:30. > :38:34.for bugetry responsibility said unemployment would fall much faster
:38:35. > :38:38.and then stay above 7% for a year. Calming fears of interest rate
:38:39. > :38:41.rises. The supposedly Office of Budget Responsibility has this
:38:42. > :38:46.unemployment rate which has been plummeting, well steadily, suddenly
:38:47. > :38:49.flatlining just above the threshold that the Bank of England promised
:38:50. > :38:52.they wouldn't raise interest rates until it fell below. So it may be
:38:53. > :38:55.that they have kind of nudged the forecast to avoid alarming the
:38:56. > :39:03.markets who are very nervous at the moment. Have we just jump started
:39:04. > :39:08.the old economic model, the one that clashed, the years of house rises
:39:09. > :39:14.and debt. Falling sales were blamed as pressure on the consumer. But
:39:15. > :39:19.consumer spending is lovely jubbly, it grew at its fastest pace in three
:39:20. > :39:24.years in the last quarter and so did the economy, consumer spending is
:39:25. > :39:28.driving it. If real incomes are not growing and consumer spending is,
:39:29. > :39:32.how do you square that? There is one answer, debt. We would like to
:39:33. > :39:37.replace our debt-fuelled economy with a new model, but households
:39:38. > :39:41.have a record of ?1. 4 trillion. Business investment is barely
:39:42. > :39:49.rising, exports are down and five more years of austerity. No suped up
:39:50. > :39:53.engine yet, but a very nice paint job.
:39:54. > :39:56.I'm joined now by Phil Collins from the Times, and Janan Ganesh from the
:39:57. > :40:00.Financial Times. The Conservatives first, the economy growing,
:40:01. > :40:04.benefits' bills down, essentially stick with the Conservatives and get
:40:05. > :40:09.the job done? Yeah, and if there is another 2. 5% of growth next year
:40:10. > :40:12.and inflation comes down a bit, that argument looks pretty strong in the
:40:13. > :40:15.months leading up to the election. I don't think that growth is their
:40:16. > :40:19.winning issue, I think their winning issue is the deficit. As long as the
:40:20. > :40:23.central subject of British politics is the deficit, Labour have a
:40:24. > :40:26.credibility problem, and George Osborne's job this week was to
:40:27. > :40:31.restore that issue to the centre of politics. The fact that the public
:40:32. > :40:46.doesn't really care that the deficit 2010, you know, ?60 billion ?120 and
:40:47. > :40:50.then down ?9, that's OK then? I think you're right that is the
:40:51. > :40:54.central question, and if George Osborne can define it as much. What
:40:55. > :40:59.happened to Labour in the Autumn Statement, their position reminds me
:41:00. > :41:02.of the speakers question, we are on the edge of the abyss now let's walk
:41:03. > :41:06.straight forward. Labour's pitch has been this Government is ruining the
:41:07. > :41:09.economy, making it worse with austerity, of course you are a
:41:10. > :41:12.terrible hostage to fortune to good numbers. George Osborne for the
:41:13. > :41:16.first time had a few good numbers to bring to the House of Commons, and
:41:17. > :41:22.Ed Balls was in a terrible position. He was marooned with nothing to say.
:41:23. > :41:29.He had a good position but the IFS blew it out of the water and said
:41:30. > :41:31.Labour on the basis of whatever it was ?1,400 worse off was the correct
:41:32. > :41:36.figure. But it doesn't have any traction? No, but what matters is
:41:37. > :41:39.the trend. If the economy generally and people's personal circumstances
:41:40. > :41:43.are even marginally improving in the last six months of the parliament,
:41:44. > :41:50.I'm not sure they will remember what happened four years earlier. I think
:41:51. > :41:53.the last six-to-nine months are disproportionately important in
:41:54. > :41:58.parliament. He just wants to tell us what it will be like in 2015? We
:41:59. > :42:01.would like him and Phil wrote a good column saying he should think ahead
:42:02. > :42:05.to infrastructure and investment in the future. Really his political
:42:06. > :42:09.incentive is to get it right over the next 18 months. For a sustained
:42:10. > :42:13.recovery, you want a massive increase in business investment, it
:42:14. > :42:17.is up 1%, you don't want a recovery based on personal debt and housing
:42:18. > :42:21.boom do you? That is right, the one line of attack which is credible is
:42:22. > :42:25.the fragility of the recovery, it could be built on sand. The
:42:26. > :42:28.debt-fuelled nature of it is extremely worrying. However, you
:42:29. > :42:32.have to look at the time scale here, it is not that long until the next
:42:33. > :42:37.election, and every incentive for the politician is to look at the hor
:42:38. > :42:42.rise zone two years hence. The big question for Labour is whether the
:42:43. > :42:47.two things, the economy in aggregate on the one hand and living
:42:48. > :42:50.standards. Labour is trying to separate them, a credibility problem
:42:51. > :42:54.on economic growth, but we are more trusted on the idea that we might be
:42:55. > :42:57.able to put money in your pocket and they are separating those two
:42:58. > :43:01.things. There is a lot of psychology around that, but a lot of that is
:43:02. > :43:04.dependant on whether or not you trust the central character in the
:43:05. > :43:16.Labour story. The central character in this story is not bland it is Ed
:43:17. > :43:21.Balls? -- Ed Miliband but Balls? I think he knows Ed Balls well enough
:43:22. > :43:25.not to count on that. Knows that Ed Balls will kick up a fuss and has a
:43:26. > :43:30.parliamentary following of pug listic MPs. It can be a bloody thing
:43:31. > :43:38.to go through. It is not as if he brings nothing at all to the Labour
:43:39. > :43:42.table, he is pragmatic. But enough, will people vote for Ed Balls as
:43:43. > :43:45.Chancellor? That is the proposition they will be offered, I don't think
:43:46. > :43:49.there is any likelihood at all. It is impossible to separate the dancer
:43:50. > :43:54.from the dance in politics. It is the message that is the problem. It
:43:55. > :43:57.is not just that Ed Balls had a bad day or performance, the central
:43:58. > :44:01.economic message is difficult to sell. Labour has been saying we will
:44:02. > :44:06.spend our way out of a spending crisis. The cost of living issue is
:44:07. > :44:10.losing traction? It matters to people and Labour are more trusted
:44:11. > :44:14.than the Conservatives. The big question is two things, whether the
:44:15. > :44:17.economy and aggregate comes back into line with living standards and
:44:18. > :44:21.second whether Labour can really possibly define an election on that
:44:22. > :44:25.question when their credibility on the economy is so poor. I think they
:44:26. > :44:30.can get awhich with saying that the cost of living is as important as
:44:31. > :44:33.the macro economy, they can't get away with saying nothing on the
:44:34. > :44:37.macro economy. Finally a very personal memory of Nelson Mandela,
:44:38. > :44:41.the South African author, Nadine Gordimer knew him as a young man,
:44:42. > :44:46.she herself was a member of the ANC and through her novels gave voice to
:44:47. > :44:50.the moral and racial struggle against apartheid in her country.
:44:51. > :44:54.Literature for which she won a Nobel Prize. Five years younger than
:44:55. > :44:58.Mandela, a constant friend throughout his life. We filmed her
:44:59. > :45:03.at her home in Johannesburg as she recognise collected the man she
:45:04. > :45:08.knew. My first memories were at a distance, seeing him, his
:45:09. > :45:13.photographs in the papers. And a friend of the distinguished of the
:45:14. > :45:21.advocate, and when the treason trial came on of Mandela he said do you
:45:22. > :45:27.want to come along to listen, and I did. So I went and I just couldn't
:45:28. > :45:31.keep away. So George very resourceful he has his brief case
:45:32. > :45:38.with all his legal papers in it, he said you take this and you are my
:45:39. > :45:43.assistant and secretary, when the time came for to have a lunch break
:45:44. > :45:48.you know in these courts, George went down to talk to his, the people
:45:49. > :45:53.that he's representing that is Nelson and some others, and I went
:45:54. > :45:59.with him owe diently carrying the papers he had. Then I met --
:46:00. > :46:03.obediently carrying the papers he was carrying, then I met Mandela in
:46:04. > :46:08.the trial cells. After that I continued to attend the trials,
:46:09. > :46:14.especially the final one which was the treason trial. And when he was
:46:15. > :46:20.sentenced to life imprisonment, I was there and heard it. With some
:46:21. > :46:24.unbelieve, I couldn't believe this was really happening. So that was
:46:25. > :46:29.the beginning of it. Then of course he went to the island. While he was
:46:30. > :46:36.on the island it so happened that I wrote a novel called There Goes The
:46:37. > :46:41.Daughter. And the prisoners on Robben Island were not allowed to
:46:42. > :46:48.have books sent to them. Apparently there was a bit of smuggling books
:46:49. > :46:53.and forth going, one of them was smuggled in was my book. Nelson read
:46:54. > :46:59.it and apparently he thought well of it, and he wrote me a letter. Which
:47:00. > :47:07.was smuggled OutRage of the prison as my book was smuggled in. And
:47:08. > :47:14.something of course that I treasure. He was a whole person, most of us
:47:15. > :47:22.have great gaps in our nature and awareness of each other but he
:47:23. > :47:27.indeed was a whole person. He had no prejudice, he had no anger. As every
:47:28. > :47:33.black person has every right to against the fact that of the years
:47:34. > :47:38.of colonialism that built up to apartheid. He was not a gloomy man
:47:39. > :47:45.at all, no matter how difficult things were. He had great and a
:47:46. > :47:50.strange mixture of courage and confidence. As if the confidence fed
:47:51. > :47:59.the courage. He just knew that the world in South Africa could not
:48:00. > :48:05.carry on like this. I think that the decision to give up the presidency,
:48:06. > :48:10.was it a bit premature, considering that we have never replaced him, we
:48:11. > :48:15.have never been able to so far replace him with anybody near his
:48:16. > :48:24.extraordinary personality, his intellect and courage. In the end
:48:25. > :48:30.there was something in him that really overcame everything. And
:48:31. > :48:35.surely some of that must remain. This may be just a personal idea,
:48:36. > :48:40.but I think many people would have it that he will never be dead for
:48:41. > :48:46.us. But I think that he cannot be forgotten. He will never be out of
:48:47. > :48:58.date. Because what he stood for is timeless. That is almost all for
:48:59. > :49:04.tonight, but there was more sad news today with the death of a
:49:05. > :49:12.much-admired figure and one of the giants of jazz Stan Tracey, he was
:49:13. > :49:20.honoured last year at the Ivor novella awards. We will live you
:49:21. > :49:25.with his rendition of I Let A Song Go Out Of My Heart.