:00:10. > :00:14.The Prime Minister says Britain has accomplished its mission in
:00:15. > :00:21.Afghanistan. It is one thing to step on to Afghan soil and declare the
:00:22. > :00:25.future rosy, but what was the mission and the cost.
:00:26. > :00:28.Also tonight this man wants a doctor to be able to kill him, he tells us
:00:29. > :00:32.why. Matthew Perry, Chandler from Friends
:00:33. > :00:37.is here to argue the case for specialist drug courts.
:00:38. > :00:42.It seems a whole lot of nothing, so why has Russia objected so
:00:43. > :00:50.vehemently to Canada's claim to own the North Pole.
:00:51. > :00:55.Do you remember this area at all? What is it like to be a modern
:00:56. > :00:58.slave. Start typically at 4.00 in the morning and work constantly
:00:59. > :01:09.throughout the day, you can't ask for a cup of tea or anything to eat
:01:10. > :01:12.or anything. The Prime Minister's official
:01:13. > :01:16.spokesman spent part of today trying to extract words from the Prime
:01:17. > :01:21.Minister's supposed mouth. The two words were "mission" and
:01:22. > :01:25."accomplished". Words which should never be run together since they
:01:26. > :01:34.appeared on the superstructure of an aircraft carrier when when George W
:01:35. > :01:39.Bush was boasting about the Iraq War. A reporter asked David Cameron
:01:40. > :01:45.if he thought the same about Afghanistan? The Prime Minister was
:01:46. > :01:49.on a pre-Christmas visit to troops in Helmand Province. Had they
:01:50. > :01:53.accomplished their mission, he was asked? I'm proud we made that
:01:54. > :01:57.promise and department that promise. I think our troops can leave with
:01:58. > :02:01.their heads held high over a job very well done. But which mission?
:02:02. > :02:05.It kept changing and that was part of the problem. Early on British
:02:06. > :02:11.Special Forces helped topple the Taliban and hunt Al-Qaeda. Then at
:02:12. > :02:21.the Bonn conference the UK volunteered to lead the Afghan
:02:22. > :02:26.counter narcotics effort. In 2001 the US Secretary of State awarded
:02:27. > :02:30.the Taliban $40 million by way of reward for eradicating opium in
:02:31. > :02:37.Afghanistan. So let's cut forward 12 years to now, where Afghanistan
:02:38. > :02:42.produces more than half of the world's heroin-grade opium, and
:02:43. > :02:48.Helmand produces half of Afghanistan's opium for export. It
:02:49. > :02:52.was only five years in, in 2006 that things got really difficult for
:02:53. > :02:56.British troops. When ministers packed them off to the south on what
:02:57. > :03:02.was described as a reconstruction mission. We would be perfectly happy
:03:03. > :03:06.to leave in three years time, without firing one shot. Because our
:03:07. > :03:15.mission is to protect the reconstruction. The Taliban were
:03:16. > :03:20.resurgent in Helmand and Kandahar provinces and the arrival of western
:03:21. > :03:24.troops touched off huge battles. It took four years, hundreds of lives
:03:25. > :03:29.and billions of pounds to get on top of it, just about. Our men have
:03:30. > :03:33.fought well and professionally, they have done their best, but they
:03:34. > :03:37.weren't able to answer the questions that aren't essentially answerable
:03:38. > :03:43.by military means, which is creating or establishing and sustaining a
:03:44. > :03:46.state, or a country that's able to sustain itself. There is no question
:03:47. > :03:50.we failed to do that. The final phase of Britain's war, the last
:03:51. > :03:55.couple of years, has focussed on preparing the Afghans for NATO's
:03:56. > :03:59.withdrawal. Tens of billions have been invested in forces that are
:04:00. > :04:03.still lacking in many respects. But there is a national mood of wanting
:04:04. > :04:10.to take responsibility and see the back of NATO, and that echoed by the
:04:11. > :04:19.President. On the security front the entire NATO exercise was one that
:04:20. > :04:24.caused Afghanistan a lot of suffering. And a lot of loss of
:04:25. > :04:30.life. And no gains, because the country is not secure. I'm not happy
:04:31. > :04:36.to say well there is partial security, that is not what we are
:04:37. > :04:42.seeking. What we wanted was absolute security and a clear-curt war
:04:43. > :04:48.against terrorism. So what's Britain's scorecard at the end of
:04:49. > :04:52.it? On the initial phase eliminating Al-Qaeda's bases, positive, on the
:04:53. > :04:56.counter narcotics mission that followed, that was a disaster. As
:04:57. > :05:00.for the insurgency in the south, at least in part caused by NATO's
:05:01. > :05:04.arrival, they just about got on top of it in the end. The final phase,
:05:05. > :05:08.the withdrawal, leaving behind capable Afghan security forces, well
:05:09. > :05:13.the jury still has to be out on that one, although one can be cautiously
:05:14. > :05:18.optimistic it will turn out better than Britain's withdrawal in 1841
:05:19. > :05:29.from which there was a single survivor.
:05:30. > :05:33.We're joined now to discuss whether the mission has really been
:05:34. > :05:47.accomplished in Afghanistan by my guests. Both in the studio and in
:05:48. > :05:52.Edinburgh, where the former British ambassador to Afghanistan is there.
:05:53. > :05:57.Is it mission accomplished? It is hard to say, I think the mission
:05:58. > :06:00.that was given by the Prime Minister is there is a basic level of
:06:01. > :06:08.security, and also that Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for
:06:09. > :06:13.Al-Qaeda. I think that's a very UK-centric mission. For 30 million
:06:14. > :06:22.Afghans the mission is a different thing and by far not accomplished.
:06:23. > :06:28.It is a very partial analysis this "mission accomplished" line? It is
:06:29. > :06:31.an unfortunate phrase, I think Mark Urban's report, the scorecard, I
:06:32. > :06:35.wouldn't dispute that at all, it is a mixed picture. The initial reason
:06:36. > :06:41.for going in was to overthrow the Taliban and to remove a safe haven
:06:42. > :06:45.for Al-Qaeda. Later on the mission got more and more complicated and
:06:46. > :06:50.almost impossible to achieve by military means. I think I would
:06:51. > :06:55.agree that the counter narcotics mission has not achieved very much,
:06:56. > :07:00.indeed I would suggest that it is impossible to deal with the supply
:07:01. > :07:03.side of a narcotics. You probably would have to deal with the demand
:07:04. > :07:06.side, that is a whole different debate. I think it is a mixed
:07:07. > :07:10.picture. As far as the military are concerned, they have done what they
:07:11. > :07:14.could do. And I think the Prime Minister is right to talk about
:07:15. > :07:18.being able to leave with their heads held high. The fact that Afghanistan
:07:19. > :07:23.isn't a peaceful democracy is not the military's fault. How does it
:07:24. > :07:27.seem from one of the other criteria, one of the other things they were
:07:28. > :07:29.supposed to do whilst they were there is assist in the creation of a
:07:30. > :07:33.civil society, particularly as regards the rights of women and the
:07:34. > :07:37.like. How does it seem from that point of view? Well, not like good
:07:38. > :07:41.news at all. You notice that the Prime Minister hasn't talked about
:07:42. > :07:48.that today. And we haven't heard people talking about it much at all,
:07:49. > :07:52.even though in 2001 we heard a lot from Tony and Cherie Blair about how
:07:53. > :07:57.it was the oppression of women was one of the reasons that action was
:07:58. > :08:01.needed to urgently in Afghanistan. What we have seen over the last
:08:02. > :08:05.seven or eight months is a quite serious rollback of women's rights
:08:06. > :08:10.by the Afghan Government. You mentioned earlier that it was a very
:08:11. > :08:16.anglo-centric, Britishcentric view of what was going on in Afghanistan,
:08:17. > :08:20.that didn't necessarily seem like that to Afghans, in what respect?
:08:21. > :08:25.Our country is still one of the poorest in the world. It is,
:08:26. > :08:30.unfortunately, the most corrupt in the world. The humanitarian needs
:08:31. > :08:35.and development needs are very high still. And it is a bedrock for
:08:36. > :08:40.extremism. But you have got rid of the Taliban Government? We have,
:08:41. > :08:44.yes. And we are proud also that we have 350,000 security forces that
:08:45. > :08:47.now undertake the absolute majority of security operations in
:08:48. > :08:57.Afghanistan. That is a good, positive thing. But the reasons of
:08:58. > :09:01.optimisim are not, do not overshadow the reasons for pessimism
:09:02. > :09:06.unfortunately. Pessimistic looking forward do you mean? Yes, the
:09:07. > :09:12.Taliban have vowed to disrupt next year's elections, although there is
:09:13. > :09:18.going to be a robust response from the Afghanistan security force, but
:09:19. > :09:23.it seems that they still have the ability to commit suicide attacks,
:09:24. > :09:31.they can organise security threats in all major Afghanistan cities,
:09:32. > :09:34.they also have been able to kill aid workers and Government public
:09:35. > :09:39.servants. At that level it hasn't been a great success, has it? It is
:09:40. > :09:42.down to the Afghans now, what the international forces have done they
:09:43. > :09:46.can't do any more I think the arguments about staying on I would
:09:47. > :09:50.disagree with. I think it is for the Afghans to take this forward. They
:09:51. > :09:53.have got a security force, the British forces have contributed to
:09:54. > :09:56.building up that force, as long as we continue to support that force
:09:57. > :10:00.with aid and development assistance, it is really now for the Afghans to
:10:01. > :10:08.take this forward. There is not much more we can do. And education is
:10:09. > :10:13.much better isn't it? Yes and no. About half of Afghan girls are still
:10:14. > :10:18.not going to school. I guess the real concern is about weather we're
:10:19. > :10:21.at a point now which is the beginning of a longer trajectory of
:10:22. > :10:25.progress or whether things are actually going to turn around and go
:10:26. > :10:28.back. If you look, there are lots of different indicator, not just about
:10:29. > :10:33.women's rights in which things are going the wrong direction. If this
:10:34. > :10:38.isn't a permanent change in Afghan society it has been an awful lot of
:10:39. > :10:42.blood and treasure spent to no effect? It can be a permanent change
:10:43. > :10:45.but that requires a long-term commitment by the international
:10:46. > :10:50.community. Not just to funding schools and clinics and hospital,
:10:51. > :10:54.but also to put political pressure on the Afghan Government to respect
:10:55. > :10:57.human rights. We are already seeing and hearing noises about deals with
:10:58. > :11:04.the Taliban of whom there are still many thousands left in Afghanistan
:11:05. > :11:09.aren't there? Yes. So what's the way forward? The way forward is for the
:11:10. > :11:16.international community, which has invested so much in Afghanistan to
:11:17. > :11:20.remain involved and supportive of human rights and women's rights and
:11:21. > :11:24.to take a firm stand, while an agreement with the Taliban might be
:11:25. > :11:30.desirable, it can't be at a cost to human rights. How does it seem to
:11:31. > :11:33.you as an Afghan? I believe that Sir William was quite right that the
:11:34. > :11:39.Afghans will take responsibility and they should. But what is important
:11:40. > :11:44.is that the changes that have happened for the military, for the
:11:45. > :11:51.civil society, that is sustained for a longer period of time, so that
:11:52. > :11:57.they are not irreversible. Sir William? I agree with that, the big
:11:58. > :12:00.lesson from history and the Russian experience in Afghanistan is the
:12:01. > :12:05.international community have to stay engaged financially. We have to
:12:06. > :12:09.commit to maintaining the support and with security forces. The
:12:10. > :12:15.Afghans won't be able do it on their own but they need to take
:12:16. > :12:19.responsibility. I have to say to Hearth, 2. 5 million girls in school
:12:20. > :12:22.is progress. The fact that so many young Afghans are going to school
:12:23. > :12:27.should in my view make a big difference to society. A thank you
:12:28. > :12:31.very much. For 50 years it has been impossible to commit suicide. You
:12:32. > :12:37.can kill yourself but a law passed in 1961 decreed it was no longer a
:12:38. > :12:40.criminal offence to do so. As a safeguard that law made it a
:12:41. > :12:44.criminal offence to help someone to take their own life. Today nine of
:12:45. > :12:47.the country's most senior judges began considering whether it is time
:12:48. > :12:53.to change that and make it possible in some circumstances. The
:12:54. > :12:59.newly-televised Supreme Court began hearing evidence today in the right
:13:00. > :13:05.to die case. Currently in England it is an offence to encourage or assist
:13:06. > :13:09.a suicide. My Lords, my lady, this appeal marks what the appleant's
:13:10. > :13:14.hope is the final stage of their attempts to obtain a legal remedy to
:13:15. > :13:19.escape the extraordinary, and we submit, cruel consequences for them
:13:20. > :13:22.of what is a generally sound law prohibiting assisted suicide in
:13:23. > :13:27.England and Wales. Tony Nickinson wanted that to change. He had locked
:13:28. > :13:33.in syndrome after suffering a massive stroke in 2005. He died last
:13:34. > :13:37.summer, a week after he lost a High Court case to end his life with the
:13:38. > :13:42.help of a doctor. His widow Jane won the right to continue the challenge
:13:43. > :13:46.and is joined by Paul Lamb, who is paralysed in a road traffic accident
:13:47. > :13:51.in 1990. Paul suffers from chronic pain and is immobile save for the
:13:52. > :13:56.limited use of his right hand. He wants to be able to get a doctor end
:13:57. > :14:00.his life at a time of his choosing. His case goes beyond that of
:14:01. > :14:05.assisted suicide as he would need a doctor actually to kill him. Which
:14:06. > :14:10.would amount to murder. Many people feel the current law protects
:14:11. > :14:13.vulnerable people. Many vulnerable elderly and disabled people will
:14:14. > :14:17.feel pressure, whether that's real or imagined to end their lives, so
:14:18. > :14:23.as not to be a financial or emotional burden upon others. And
:14:24. > :14:27.some disability rights campaigners believe the focus should be
:14:28. > :14:33.different. Why do people want to die? What can we do to improve the
:14:34. > :14:38.quality of life of individuals such as Paul Lamb so that he has a change
:14:39. > :14:43.of mind. The nine judges of the Supreme Court must now decide
:14:44. > :14:47.whether the current prohibition on assisted suicide is incompatible
:14:48. > :14:53.with the right for respect for private and family life. Paul Lamb
:14:54. > :14:57.is with us now. A lot of people would find this desire of yours
:14:58. > :15:05.incomprehensible, can you explain why you want to change the law?
:15:06. > :15:09.Peace of mind. If the law changes in favour of what we are asking, it
:15:10. > :15:15.means while I'm on this planet, I will have a lot more peace of mind.
:15:16. > :15:19.I don't have to keep thinking of ways to end my life if and when I
:15:20. > :15:27.can't take no more. If you say you can't take any more, that you make a
:15:28. > :15:32.decision that life isn't worth living? Yes. How will you know when
:15:33. > :15:35.that time is? When I can't physically and mentally take no
:15:36. > :15:41.more. There is a lot of things that could still go wrong with me, and...
:15:42. > :15:45.And I just want to be able to call upon the help of a doctor when I
:15:46. > :15:51.know I can't do any more. Life is worth living now? If this was in the
:15:52. > :15:56.background, like almost like a lot of money in the bank, if I could
:15:57. > :16:00.bank this that I knew that there is a safeguard when I need it, I will
:16:01. > :16:05.probably have a lot better quality of life now. Why is knowing that a
:16:06. > :16:10.doctor could help you end your life, if you came to that judgment, why is
:16:11. > :16:16.that better than the care you might receive in a good hospice? It is not
:16:17. > :16:21.enough. I have been 23 years now and the pain I get at times is
:16:22. > :16:25.unbearable. There is a lot more things that can go wrong with me.
:16:26. > :16:33.I'm constantly just thinking of ways I can end my life if and when the
:16:34. > :16:39.time comes. And to be honest running my chair into a canal, jumping on a
:16:40. > :16:48.rail line, jumping over a cliff, scares me. It scares me a lot. I
:16:49. > :16:56.just want the ability to die at home with family and friend around me.
:16:57. > :17:01.With dignity. I suppose there may come a point when you can't work
:17:02. > :17:07.your wheelchair? Well my hand, that's the one that I have got that
:17:08. > :17:10.I can use, I throw it over on to the joy stick and it gives me
:17:11. > :17:14.independence. But I have seen people over the years that have usage of
:17:15. > :17:19.and lose it, and I have seen them suffering. And that scares me. Do
:17:20. > :17:24.you understand why many people worry about the message it would send to
:17:25. > :17:32.many disabled people? Yes, but in the country we live in now, I mean
:17:33. > :17:38.there will be certain ways where the safeguard people like that, surely.
:17:39. > :17:45.It is the absolute opposite of what every doctor has been trained to do,
:17:46. > :17:50.isn't it? Yes, but in the same breath as medicines are advancing
:17:51. > :17:56.all the time, and we're enhancing the lives of people, it is like
:17:57. > :17:59.enhancing the pain that I'm going through, adding more years to what
:18:00. > :18:03.is a sentence already. You have arrived at this conclusion through a
:18:04. > :18:06.series of thoughts of your own, but supposing you were a person who had
:18:07. > :18:11.come to the conclusion that they were a burden on others. That isn't
:18:12. > :18:14.you? I don't feel that. I'm not suggesting you have come to that
:18:15. > :18:19.view. But supposing you were such a person and they saw that it was
:18:20. > :18:26.possible for someone to help you leave this life. Wouldn't that send
:18:27. > :18:31.a very worrying message? Do you see what I'm getting at. You have made a
:18:32. > :18:35.judgment in your mind that it is about how you want to live your life
:18:36. > :18:41.and how you want to end your life. But if you were a pers who was a
:18:42. > :18:48.little bit vulnerable, wound you wore -- wouldn't you worry about the
:18:49. > :18:51.sort of message that might send? They should be able to put
:18:52. > :18:56.safeguards in makes I think safeguards would be put in place to
:18:57. > :19:02.help them type of people. Have you had any, any indication of how this
:19:03. > :19:07.is likely to work out? In what way? Well, do you get a sense that public
:19:08. > :19:13.opinion is on your side? It is. I mean I have heard that many times
:19:14. > :19:19.that 70-80% of public opinion is on my side. And what about the ethical
:19:20. > :19:25.considerations about the taking of life, do they not bother you? The
:19:26. > :19:30.ethical? Yeah, the idea that suicide was a crime because originally it
:19:31. > :19:35.was considered to be a sin. It was also supposed to be the coward's way
:19:36. > :19:41.out. I have never seen that. No, you are making a very brave call here, a
:19:42. > :19:47.very brave call here, which most of us perhaps would shy away from. But
:19:48. > :19:52.when you go through what I have gone through over the years, I don't shy
:19:53. > :19:59.away from it. I personally would like to live more years, but the way
:20:00. > :20:04.it is at the moment I'm constantly thinking, I just want peace of mind.
:20:05. > :20:14.I want the doctors there to help and to help me it would be for them to
:20:15. > :20:20.give me my own choice. Independence. Thank you. Thank you very much, good
:20:21. > :20:24.luck. I'm sorry. You're fine, thank you. It is one of the most
:20:25. > :20:28.instrictable policy problems of our times, how do we best deal with the
:20:29. > :20:32.consequences of drug addiction and break the cycle of offending. Today
:20:33. > :20:36.the Justice Secretary, Chris Grayling, met with the delegation
:20:37. > :20:41.from the United States, amongst them a former addict and sitcom star, the
:20:42. > :20:44.actor, Matthew Perry. Who think drug courts are the answer. We will ask
:20:45. > :20:55.in a moment whether they are. First, what are they? Drug courts aren't
:20:56. > :21:00.easy. Drug courts could save someone you love. Drug courts are the
:21:01. > :21:05.solution. There's no shortage of famous recovering addicts to
:21:06. > :21:08.eadvantagise about America's drug courts. They have reinvented the
:21:09. > :21:12.relationship between judge and offender. Stay clean and the
:21:13. > :21:19.offender gets lots of praise and stays out of prison. It is rather
:21:20. > :21:25.less touchy feely in Glasgow, their drug court opened more than ten
:21:26. > :21:31.years ago. Anything you want to say to me. You have another six months
:21:32. > :21:36.to go, this is where we get into the home strait now and you finish off.
:21:37. > :21:40.Yes. Well done to you, I'm delighted for you, well done. The key
:21:41. > :21:43.difference between a drug court and an ordinary court is the
:21:44. > :21:47.relationship that builds up between the judge and the offender. The
:21:48. > :21:52.judge is meant to act like a mentor, encouraging and supporting the
:21:53. > :21:56.offender to stay off the drugs. Offender is meant to confide in the
:21:57. > :22:01.drug and tell them how the treatment programme is going. It all sounds a
:22:02. > :22:05.bit happy-clappy, but the judge does have sanctions at their disposal,
:22:06. > :22:12.they can send the offender to prison if they drop out of the treatment
:22:13. > :22:16.programme. As an analogy, a football manager an analogy, where some
:22:17. > :22:21.players need to be told in frank terms and some players need an arm
:22:22. > :22:24.put round them. I have not put an arm round any of them yet. Maybe
:22:25. > :22:29.that is the sort of thing they do in America, that wouldn't work in
:22:30. > :22:34.Glasgow. Martin boil was aticketed to drugs for 20 years and imprisoned
:22:35. > :22:40.25 times. He says he couldn't have turned his -- addicted to drugs for
:22:41. > :22:45.20 years and imprisoned 25-times, he said he couldn't have turned his
:22:46. > :22:49.life around without the judge in his drug court. She didn't treat me like
:22:50. > :22:55.a drug addict, she treated me like a person. I wouldn't be alive. So she
:22:56. > :23:09.saved your life? Aye. Definitely aye. What would you say to her now
:23:10. > :23:15.if you saw her? Sorry about this... I will be ecertainly grateful for
:23:16. > :23:19.her -- eternally grateful for her, I hope she does, she was the only
:23:20. > :23:23.person in my whole life that has really given me a chance. How
:23:24. > :23:27.effective are drug courts. A Ministry of Justice study found that
:23:28. > :23:31.offenders were 30% more likely to complete a drug treatment order if
:23:32. > :23:55.they had regular contact with a judge.
:23:56. > :23:59.You sat through the drug court process, describe what it looks
:24:00. > :24:02.like? It is really a place of celebration. Matthew Perry has been
:24:03. > :24:07.lobbying the Justice Secretary to put more money into drug courts. It
:24:08. > :24:11.is not clear yet whether he will get his wish. We have 32 Magistrates'
:24:12. > :24:15.Courts in this country that offer the drug court model, is it time to
:24:16. > :24:18.expand that? What matters in the justice system is what works. We
:24:19. > :24:22.have clearly got some evidence in the UK, but interesting evidence
:24:23. > :24:26.from the states as well. That there is a potential here to have an
:24:27. > :24:30.impact on reoffending levels. Central to what I want to achieve in
:24:31. > :24:34.my role is bring down reoffending rates. I'm open to all ideas that
:24:35. > :24:37.can help achieve that. You are struggling right now but I'm going
:24:38. > :24:42.to persevere with you and encourage you. Drug courts are intensively
:24:43. > :24:46.resourced, along with the judge they involve probation officers, health
:24:47. > :24:49.and social workers. But their supporters argue they save money in
:24:50. > :24:55.the long run, because fewer offenders end up in prison.
:24:56. > :25:00.With us now is the actor and former addict, Matthew Perry, the
:25:01. > :25:04.journalist Peter Hitchins and Baroness Meacher who chairs the
:25:05. > :25:11.All-Party Parliamentary Group on Drug policy reform. Why do you have
:25:12. > :25:14.such faith in drug courts? That is easy to answer, I see they work. I
:25:15. > :25:20.have been involved with them for about four years. Little over four
:25:21. > :25:28.years, and people that go through drug court have a 55% less chance of
:25:29. > :25:33.seeing handcuffs ever again. How do you know that these people wouldn't
:25:34. > :25:36.have quit their drug habit any way? Well, that gets into a bigger
:25:37. > :25:40.question of whether these people are addicts or not. You know what I
:25:41. > :25:43.mean. If they are drug addicts and alcoholics then they are going to
:25:44. > :25:51.keep going until something stops them. And drug court is a wonderful
:25:52. > :25:59.way to interrupt that process. And it is a way to not throw these
:26:00. > :26:02.people away. It takes first-time drug offenders and instead of
:26:03. > :26:07.throwing them into prison it puts them into an 18-month to two-year
:26:08. > :26:11.programme. What is not to like about it? Well the evidence in favour of
:26:12. > :26:20.them is pretty scanty, there haven't been many serious studies, I think
:26:21. > :26:23.one in Arizona and battle Mir -- Baltimore and somewhere else in the
:26:24. > :26:25.United States, and they say it doesn't make too much difference.
:26:26. > :26:29.The selection of the people going through them has some impact on it.
:26:30. > :26:33.The real problem for me is this, what you are saying, effectively you
:26:34. > :26:37.are seeking to fail in the criminal justice system. The whole point of
:26:38. > :26:41.the criminal justice system, and we forget this all the time is to deter
:26:42. > :26:45.people from committing crimes. Once you have arrested someone and they
:26:46. > :26:50.appear in court it has already failed. To soften the court system
:26:51. > :26:56.to make it into a jolly where the judge wears tracksuit bottoms. What
:26:57. > :27:00.do you mean a jolly? You should see some things in the west London drug
:27:01. > :27:05.court, where the judge wore tracksuit bottoms and was maty with
:27:06. > :27:09.the defendants. This gives the impression of not the majesty of
:27:10. > :27:13.justice but somebody trying to be nice. That is not the way to deal
:27:14. > :27:17.with it. There is nothing wrong with being nice? If you want to stop
:27:18. > :27:22.people becoming drug user, the best thing to do is make sure they never
:27:23. > :27:24.start in the first place. A deterrent criminal justice system
:27:25. > :27:27.would actually do that. But they have already started? They have
:27:28. > :27:31.started because the criminal justice system is so feeble. Isn't the real
:27:32. > :27:36.problem... It is feeble from the start. Baroness Meacher have a
:27:37. > :27:39.contribution here? Isn't the problem that by the time you get to a drug
:27:40. > :27:43.court you have already assumed that drug addiction is a crime. Actually
:27:44. > :27:48.drug addiction is a health problem. The first thing you have to do is
:27:49. > :27:51.some preventive work, prevent people becoming drug addicts, and that we
:27:52. > :27:56.now know, there is good evidence that you can do that. Portugal have
:27:57. > :28:00.switched vast sums of moneys from prisons to treatment. They have
:28:01. > :28:06.vastly more people in treatment than we do here. They have a much better
:28:07. > :28:10.record than Spain and Italy. You can deal with this as health problem.
:28:11. > :28:14.Instead of waiting for people to become really severe addict, get
:28:15. > :28:19.into the criminal justice system and I agree drug courts can be a little
:28:20. > :28:25.more helpful. I'm not understanding your point, your point is to stop
:28:26. > :28:31.drugs and alcoholism by just people never starting. You two believe in
:28:32. > :28:35.this fantasy of addiction. A complete fantasy where people lose
:28:36. > :28:40.all power over themselves and become victims of this terrible frightening
:28:41. > :28:43.disease. Right now... This is what you believe, this terrible
:28:44. > :28:46.frightening disease after which they cannot stop taking drugs. If you
:28:47. > :28:50.really believe that you would presumably think the best thing is
:28:51. > :28:53.they never, ever came in contact with those drugs, wouldn't it
:28:54. > :28:58.therefore be wise to deter them from doing so by a stern and effective
:28:59. > :29:04.criminal justice system which persuaded them it was unwise to take
:29:05. > :29:10.them in the first place. When can I speak, I'm dying to speak. We didn't
:29:11. > :29:13.come here to be quiet. Neither did I, I didn't come here to listen to
:29:14. > :29:18.ludicrous things like that either. You tell me why it is ludicrous if
:29:19. > :29:22.you are so clever. I will, the American medical association
:29:23. > :29:29.diagnosed it a disease in 1976 so you are saying that's incorrect. Are
:29:30. > :29:34.you saying it is incorrect? The medical profession is doing lots of
:29:35. > :29:38.things, they said that the homosexuality was a disease and they
:29:39. > :29:44.were wrong. The key things is we have had this policy for 50 years.
:29:45. > :29:48.My life is the evidence. We have had 50 years of treating addiction as a
:29:49. > :29:54.crime, we know it doesn't work anywhere in the world. Increasingly
:29:55. > :29:59.in the US, Uruguay things are changing. Finish your point. I'm a
:30:00. > :30:04.drug addict, I'm a person that if I have a drink I can't stop. And so it
:30:05. > :30:09.would be following your ideology that I'm choosing to do that. That
:30:10. > :30:14.I'm choosing that. That is exactly my belief, you do choose. You have a
:30:15. > :30:19.choice. It is a belief you wrote in your book. You have a choice over
:30:20. > :30:22.whether you drink or not. But your book is the only book in modern
:30:23. > :30:27.times that has this ideology, doesn't that teach you something.
:30:28. > :30:31.Quite often unfashionable ideas are unfashionable because they are
:30:32. > :30:34.unpopular with influential people. Doesn't necessarily bother me. You
:30:35. > :30:39.tell me what the objective diagnosis is to establish the existence tense
:30:40. > :30:49.of addiction in the human body. It is an allergy of the body... Allergy
:30:50. > :30:52.to what. We are supposed to be grown men and you are making faces like
:30:53. > :30:55.the guy who is wearing the pants that you were talking about earlier.
:30:56. > :31:00.I'm expecting you to come out in the pants in a minute. It is an
:31:01. > :31:03.inception of your mind and allergy of your body. This is what happens
:31:04. > :31:07.to me, I start thinking about alcohol, I can't stop, I can't stop
:31:08. > :31:11.thinking about it. What is the objective physical proof of this
:31:12. > :31:15.inability to stop. There is considerable proof this is partly a
:31:16. > :31:19.genetic problem. Your argument is it is will power? Of course it is will
:31:20. > :31:25.power. People constantly stop both drinking and taking drugs. You are
:31:26. > :31:31.just a person who is talking who is wrong. It is an effort on your part
:31:32. > :31:35.not to do it now? I'm in control of the first drink, and so I do all
:31:36. > :31:40.these things to protect myself from not having the first drink. But once
:31:41. > :31:45.I have that drink the allergy of the body kicks in, this is all
:31:46. > :31:51.documented alcoholism proof. Then I can't stop after that. Our problem
:31:52. > :31:55.with Peter. I'm allergic to aspirin. It doesn't mean I don't have to
:31:56. > :32:02.drink. You have to look at the evidence. What is this allergy. It
:32:03. > :32:07.is an allergy of your body. Not that your aspirin point wasn't genius,
:32:08. > :32:10.but, you don't know what you are talking about. That's right, you
:32:11. > :32:14.have to look at countries that have done it differently and they have
:32:15. > :32:20.succeeded. I have asked you to come up with an objective. I did, myself.
:32:21. > :32:25.We're not getting anywhere. Yourself is the reverse of objective. Myself
:32:26. > :32:29.and ten million other alcoholics and addicts across America and the world
:32:30. > :32:33.are having these problems. People have problems with drugs and drink,
:32:34. > :32:36.people like taking them and they don't want to stop taking them, it
:32:37. > :32:40.doesn't mean they have a disease that needs to be treated. So the
:32:41. > :32:44.American medical association is wrong. If they say it is a disease,
:32:45. > :32:48.yes of course they are wrong. All these doctors are wrong, but you are
:32:49. > :32:53.right? But you are right. There is an immense fashion at the moment for
:32:54. > :32:58.simply, for dismissing the ability of people to take control over their
:32:59. > :33:03.own lives and to make excuses for them. We have far from 50 years been
:33:04. > :33:06.treating alleged addiction as a crime, we have been treating it as a
:33:07. > :33:12.disease and the result is we have many, many more drug users than we
:33:13. > :33:17.did when this policy started. The medical evidence shows that
:33:18. > :33:20.addiction is in part a genetic problem and in part an environmental
:33:21. > :33:24.one. If you have parents with an addiction and if you then have
:33:25. > :33:28.abuse, sexual abuse, child abuse, brought up in a children's home,
:33:29. > :33:31.lots of foster problem, you have this genetic problem any way, the
:33:32. > :33:35.evidence is very, very clear you have a medical health problem. And
:33:36. > :33:38.countries that have addressed this and dealt with it, as a health
:33:39. > :33:44.problem, are doing a lot better than we are. We can save money, we can
:33:45. > :33:47.reduce crime, we can get people better and stop having them on
:33:48. > :33:53.benefits, we can have them paying taxes. If we want to save money and
:33:54. > :33:56.help people we know how to do it. Since we have followed your policies
:33:57. > :34:02.more and more people have been taking dangerous and damaging drugs.
:34:03. > :34:09.Since we have ceased treating drug possession as a crime and have more
:34:10. > :34:12.or less stopped arresting or prosecuting people for possessing
:34:13. > :34:16.drugs, since we have classified drug takers as people with a medical
:34:17. > :34:22.problem we have had more and more. Let me ask you this. Can I possibly
:34:23. > :34:26.be right. Can I give him one quick put down. If you want to. You are
:34:27. > :34:31.making a point as ludicrous as saying Peter Pan is real. You keep
:34:32. > :34:35.saying that, but you can't come up with an objective definition. I was
:34:36. > :34:40.going to make an argument useful to you. Isn't the point about drug
:34:41. > :34:44.courts that people have to be compelled to get clean thank in
:34:45. > :34:49.itself tells you something? They don't have to be compelled. You have
:34:50. > :34:54.to have the willingness to change. Drug courts don't do much better
:34:55. > :34:57.than voluntary treatment, drug courts do fairly much the same. It
:34:58. > :35:02.is not as crazy as what he's saying but it is not true either. There is
:35:03. > :35:05.research evidence to show that you do as well, roughly, with voluntary
:35:06. > :35:10.treatment as you do in drug courts, but actually. But they have to want
:35:11. > :35:15.to do it? They have and to be well enough to do it. That is an act of
:35:16. > :35:18.will? But they have got to reached a stage, have sufficient support,
:35:19. > :35:22.sufficient treatment, this is very complicated it is not just a simple
:35:23. > :35:26.thing. They have to be cleaned up and sober. It is much more
:35:27. > :35:32.complicated. They have to be sober to make that decision or
:35:33. > :35:39.intoxicated. How do people ever cease to be addicts if this is true.
:35:40. > :35:45.Yes, Santa. This is a serious subject and you treat it with
:35:46. > :35:50.immense levity. You are are one the treating with with levity. You so
:35:51. > :35:54.smugly and loftly this policy that you advocate which has led to
:35:55. > :35:58.disaster in western countries for decades. That is simply not true.
:35:59. > :36:03.How has the policy led to disSAS templet Because it has led to a
:36:04. > :36:07.laxness in the law which has meant many, many more people taking the
:36:08. > :36:14.terrible risk of taking the drugs which you say are addictive and we
:36:15. > :36:18.all agree are damage. That is simply not true, we know it and the
:36:19. > :36:22.research shows it. All you need to do is some reading of the evidence.
:36:23. > :36:26.Read something other than your book. You can't argue seriously. It
:36:27. > :36:30.doesn't matter much to the polar bears but it seems to matter a great
:36:31. > :36:35.deal to human politicians. Who owns the Arctic, who cares? What once
:36:36. > :36:39.would be the answer. And an issue up there with what passport Father
:36:40. > :36:47.Christmas carries. No longer, it matters a lot to the man with the
:36:48. > :36:50.most photographed torso in politics, Mr Putin, and Stephen Harper, the
:36:51. > :36:54.Prime Minister of Canada, who claims the North Pole is Canadian. It
:36:55. > :37:00.dispute is less about what is obvious at the pole than what lies
:37:01. > :37:05.beneath. It has gone down as well as a vegetarian alternative amongst sea
:37:06. > :37:09.loins and the Danes. Who believe it is their's any way. The Arctic ice
:37:10. > :37:14.may be in retreat, but it is what lies beneath that has set Canada,
:37:15. > :37:19.Russia, the US, Norway and Denmark at odds. No country has quite
:37:20. > :37:23.managed to prove sovereignty over the North Pole. Then hey presto last
:37:24. > :37:27.week the Canadian Foreign Minister announced that the North Pole is
:37:28. > :37:31.Canadian. Of course. Russia immediately responded by saying no
:37:32. > :37:36.it is not. According to a UN convention, states may claim
:37:37. > :37:43.territory to a limit of 200 nautical miles from their continental shelf.
:37:44. > :37:47.The current dispute centres round an underwater mountain range. Canada
:37:48. > :37:51.claims it is part of its own continental shelf, Russia claims
:37:52. > :37:54.much the same. A vast array of scientific equipment is being
:37:55. > :37:58.deployed as each tries to prove the other wrong. The obvious motivation
:37:59. > :38:02.for the dispute is natural resources. According to the US
:38:03. > :38:07.Geological Survey the Arctic accounts for about 13% of the
:38:08. > :38:11.world's undiscovered oil, 30% of the undiscovered natural gas, and 20% of
:38:12. > :38:19.the undiscovered natural gas liquids in the world. But sceptics warn the
:38:20. > :38:22.Arctic is an in ospitable place to extract anything at all. So the
:38:23. > :38:27.expected natural resources bonanza may be very difficult to come by. In
:38:28. > :38:33.cases like this, and there are no other cases precisely like this, of
:38:34. > :38:38.course, the wheels that the United Nations grind are extremely slow. At
:38:39. > :38:42.this level at least there is no thaw in sight.
:38:43. > :38:46.I'm joined by Skype from his home in Ottawa by the chief executive of the
:38:47. > :38:51.royal Canadian geographical society. How long do you think before it will
:38:52. > :38:57.be settled one way or another? I'm not sure it will be settled in our
:38:58. > :39:06.life times. Many years maybe decades. Why the fuss now? Is the
:39:07. > :39:10.process Which? All the scientists and Governments are trying to
:39:11. > :39:17.determine whether or not they have a legitimate claim. A everyone thinks
:39:18. > :39:29.they do. Canada, Denmark and Russia have a strong claim on the pole. All
:39:30. > :39:33.of those will proceed. They have a big nerve in claiming it? The
:39:34. > :39:37.convention of the law of the sea demonstrates that if you show that
:39:38. > :39:44.your continental shelf extends beyond your shores you can make a
:39:45. > :39:56.claim up to 200 nautical miles. Certainly the extension of the I
:39:57. > :40:03.think there is a convincing claim for the Canadians. What about Father
:40:04. > :40:10.Christmas? We know he's Canadian, I don't think that point is in
:40:11. > :40:13.dispute. Thank you very much indeed! Anyone found guilty of traffics a
:40:14. > :40:18.fellow human being in this country will, if the Government manages to
:40:19. > :40:22.change the law, be sentenced to life imprisonment. The Home Secretary
:40:23. > :40:26.says that tackling modern slavery is her top priority. But how can this
:40:27. > :40:31.be, since it has been a principle of English law for hundreds of years
:40:32. > :40:35.that once a slave sets foot in this country he or she is no longer a
:40:36. > :40:40.slave. The state of slavery does not and cannot formally exist in this
:40:41. > :40:47.country, but it can and it does exist. From Brixton town houses to
:40:48. > :40:51.nail bars on the high street. Claims of forced labour, of servitude, even
:40:52. > :40:59.of slavery are getting more attention from politicians, more
:41:00. > :41:02.notice from the media. Two years ago police raided this
:41:03. > :41:07.quiet travellers site in Bedfordshire, in the first case of
:41:08. > :41:11.its type, four members of the same family were accused of forcing men
:41:12. > :41:17.into unpaid work. Officers were shocked by the filth and degradation
:41:18. > :41:21.they were living in. Mark once lived on the same site, a year before
:41:22. > :41:25.those raids he was picked up outside a soup kitchen and offered work
:41:26. > :41:29.laying driveways in the area. It is the very definition of slavery,
:41:30. > :41:34.people working for long hours for zero pay it is slavery. This is the
:41:35. > :41:38.first time I have before back since it happened. It is a bit weird being
:41:39. > :41:42.here. He's now turned his life around and campaigns on the issue of
:41:43. > :41:49.forced labour. There were people who had been here for a long time,
:41:50. > :41:53.ten-to-fifteen years and they never saw a penny in the whole time. They
:41:54. > :41:59.were punished for minor things. I have seen people hit with pickaxes
:42:00. > :42:03.and shovels, it is generally an oppressive and scary environment.
:42:04. > :42:07.People will ask why not walk away? It is fair enough question, I
:42:08. > :42:12.understand why people ask that. It was difficult to answer. I was never
:42:13. > :42:15.physically locked in anywhere, as far as I know nobody else who worked
:42:16. > :42:19.on the site was locked in either. You see people sometimes trying to
:42:20. > :42:24.runway, they were always brought back in a far worse state than they
:42:25. > :42:27.left. You were constantly told that there is no getting out, this is
:42:28. > :42:32.your life now. You're one of them and it is your lot to work here
:42:33. > :42:35.basically. Mark was eventually taken to Sweden to work, he managed to run
:42:36. > :42:43.away and was picked up by the local police. New figures suggest there
:42:44. > :42:48.are 10,000 people working here in those sorts of conditions. Some will
:42:49. > :42:54.be forced into manual Labour, others into prosecution or domestic
:42:55. > :43:01.servitude. Police data show most victims come fret developing coups,
:43:02. > :43:03.like Nigeria and Albania. For the Home Secretary it is something of a
:43:04. > :43:09.personal crusade, today she promised a new law on the statute books
:43:10. > :43:13.before the next election. Modern slavery does not pay. Get involved
:43:14. > :43:17.we will hunt you down, we will prosecute you, we will lock you up
:43:18. > :43:20.and your assets will be seized and confiscated. The idea is to take
:43:21. > :43:25.raft of different trafficking offences and combine them all into a
:43:26. > :43:29.single slavery law, with a maximum life sentence. Police and social
:43:30. > :43:32.workers will have a new legal duty to report victims and a new
:43:33. > :43:38.anti-slavery commissioner will act as a watchdog. The Government says
:43:39. > :43:41.it is a breakthrough. Critics say it doesn't go far enough. There is
:43:42. > :43:46.nothing in the bill that will stop victims from being criminalised as a
:43:47. > :43:50.result of crimes traffickers make them commit. There is nothing in the
:43:51. > :43:54.bill that protects victims by giving them enough time to recover. How is
:43:55. > :43:57.the Government supposed to secure the prosecutions if victims don't
:43:58. > :44:01.feel protected. On the one hand you say you want to do more about this,
:44:02. > :44:04.on the other the Government has been imposing new visa restrictions and
:44:05. > :44:10.cutting funding to organisations which are meant to be the watchdog
:44:11. > :44:13.in this area. So is there a tension between what you are saying today
:44:14. > :44:16.and what your Government is doing? It is perfectly possible for this
:44:17. > :44:20.Government to continue what we have been doing in the last few years, in
:44:21. > :44:22.terms of bringing control into our immigration system, that was
:44:23. > :44:26.necessary, we have done that. We continue to work on that. But at the
:44:27. > :44:30.same time look at this appalling crime of modern slavery and deal
:44:31. > :44:35.with it as a crime and ensure we can get and bring to justice more of the
:44:36. > :44:39.perpetrators, more of the slave drivers so we reduce the number of
:44:40. > :44:42.victims in the future. Across the road from the House of Commons in
:44:43. > :44:47.Westminster Abbey, a reminder that parliament has played a role in
:44:48. > :44:52.stamping out slavery in the past. Politicians have been queueing up to
:44:53. > :45:02.envoke the officer incompetent of William will better force, this man
:45:03. > :45:07.-- Wi -- invoke the spirit of William Wilberforce the man who
:45:08. > :45:11.defeated slavery. After People are still being flown into this country
:45:12. > :45:15.thinking they are signing up for a legitimate job. Crystal was brought
:45:16. > :45:20.here from the West Indies as a maid. She was barely paid and when she
:45:21. > :45:24.tried to get help she was punished. For me I felt violated and I felt
:45:25. > :45:29.like the authorities didn't want to hear about this. It was a taboo
:45:30. > :45:35.subject to talk about. One of the things I noticed early on is my
:45:36. > :45:40.immigration status was more important than the experience of
:45:41. > :45:44.being traffiked. Today's bill is then a first step in fighting the
:45:45. > :45:48.modern version of slavery, but before more human traffickers can be
:45:49. > :45:52.caught the police and the politicians will have to convince
:45:53. > :45:58.victims it is now safe to come forward. Tomorrow morning's front
:45:59. > :46:45.pages That's it for now, we will leave you
:46:46. > :46:51.with memories of the actor Peter oh -- Peter O' Toole, he told us many
:46:52. > :46:55.years ago he didn't want to be an actor. I always wanted to be a poet.
:46:56. > :47:00.Were you any good. Do you remember any of your couplets? I dare not
:47:01. > :47:07.tell you, later perhaps. What appealed to you about that? Writing
:47:08. > :47:15.poetry and wondering about life and wandering around in a green cape and
:47:16. > :47:17.like Mangan with a funny hat on me. And the ladies liked poets?