:00:09. > :00:15.Whiched Fusilier Ian Rigby's killers were convicted today of his cold
:00:16. > :00:18.blooded murder. They were followers of extreme political Islam for many
:00:19. > :00:22.years. Why were they not stopped when the warning signs, such as a
:00:23. > :00:33.hatred of the west were there. You are clear that this kind of ideology
:00:34. > :00:40.of hatred, of conflict can feed into terrorism? It isn't just "can" feed
:00:41. > :00:44.into terrorism, it does feed into terrorism and they produce
:00:45. > :00:48.terrorism. Since 9/11 we have been repeatedly assured that the UK
:00:49. > :00:51.played no part in rendition suspects. Today the Government was
:00:52. > :00:54.confronted with evidence that this is not true. Why no independent
:00:55. > :01:02.inquiry as David Cameron once promised. We speak to Sir Menzies
:01:03. > :01:11.Campbell, part of the group investigating what happened.
:01:12. > :01:15.Dimir Putin says he intended to pardon Russia's richest man, is it
:01:16. > :01:26.an attempt to get the world on side ahead of the Sochi Olympics. Gaia,
:01:27. > :01:31.the most powerful telescope in the world was launched today, ready to
:01:32. > :01:41.map a billion stars. How will it transform our understanding of the
:01:42. > :01:45.galaxy? As we go on air tonight there are dramatic scenes in the
:01:46. > :01:50.heart of London Theatreland, where part of the roof of the Apollo
:01:51. > :02:01.Theatre has collapsed during the performance of the curious Incident
:02:02. > :02:06.of a Dog In the Nightime. We will bring you latest pictures and news.
:02:07. > :02:11.The two killers of Ian Rigby described themselves as soldiers of
:02:12. > :02:15.Allah. They were convicted today after a trial which exposed his
:02:16. > :02:19.killers' extreme interpretation of Islam and their complete lack of
:02:20. > :02:24.remorse. There were danger signs, both men associated with known
:02:25. > :02:31.Islamist extremists from groups this programme has tracked for years. So
:02:32. > :02:40.what role did radicalisation play in the brutal take and after Lee
:02:41. > :02:45.Rigby's murder will there be a crackdown. There are distressing
:02:46. > :02:52.images from the start. Fusilier Le Rigg was the victim of a
:02:53. > :02:55.savage attack. You can see him highlighted, a Carayolying his
:02:56. > :03:01.killers accelerated knocking him down. The occupants got out,
:03:02. > :03:07.stabbing him repeatedly, they tried to can he cap Tate him. --
:03:08. > :03:12.decapitate him. The only reason we have killed this man today is
:03:13. > :03:16.because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. He was the soldier
:03:17. > :03:23.that was spotted first. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
:03:24. > :03:27.We swear by a mighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you
:03:28. > :03:33.leave us alone. The soldier is the fairest target. This horrific attack
:03:34. > :03:40.and murder, which took place in broad daylight on the streets of
:03:41. > :03:48.London shocked the whole country. The brutal murder of Lee Rigby,
:03:49. > :03:51.right here said something about criminally deranged minds, it said
:03:52. > :03:57.something about the threat of extremism in Britain today, and the
:03:58. > :04:02.tiny minority of Muslims who believe that Islam is at war with the west.
:04:03. > :04:07.Crickets say successive Governments have failed to address this problem
:04:08. > :04:12.for more than 15 years. For some like this Islamic scholar, the
:04:13. > :04:17.murder of Lee Rigby is a journey beginning before the 9/11 attacks in
:04:18. > :04:24.2001. We have to think very coverallly, because if we don't
:04:25. > :04:28.arrest this now, even though it is very late in the day, there are
:04:29. > :04:35.still those who are coming from Syria, coming from Somalia, coming
:04:36. > :04:40.from Pakistan, coming from Afghanistan. Coming back to the
:04:41. > :04:50.country? Coming back to the country. More murderers are coming on the
:04:51. > :05:01.way, if you are not very careful. Anjum chowedry, -- Choudray one of
:05:02. > :05:09.the most vocal Islamists in the country, he was a leading figure in
:05:10. > :05:16.a leading Islamic group. When that was banned other splinter groups
:05:17. > :05:21.emerged, it is clear that Adebolajo was interested in extreme political
:05:22. > :05:30.Islam. Choudray told me he was never a member, but admitted that
:05:31. > :05:33.Adebolajo did attempt. Do you believe David Cameron gets caught in
:05:34. > :05:36.the street, do you think we start fussing our guns, will the
:05:37. > :05:39.politicians get done, it will be the average guys like you and your
:05:40. > :05:48.children. Get rid of them, tell them to bring our troops back so you can
:05:49. > :05:54.all live in peace. His accomplice, Michael Adabowale attended the same
:05:55. > :05:58.event outside St Paul's Cathedral in London last year. If you see evil
:05:59. > :06:03.change it with your hand if can you do so, if you cannot do so, them
:06:04. > :06:11.speak out against it. You are clear that this kind of ideology of
:06:12. > :06:15.hatred, of conflict, can feed into terrorism? It is not just it can
:06:16. > :06:23.feed into terrorism, it does feed into terrorism, if the men -- it is
:06:24. > :06:27.the main producer of terrorism. Hate receipt is the basic starting point.
:06:28. > :06:32.When the two planes magnificently ran through those buildings, OK, and
:06:33. > :06:39.people turn around and say, hang on a second, that is barbaric... I have
:06:40. > :06:49.been following the group for more than a decade, this was in 2004, I
:06:50. > :06:55.was I was invited to attend a meeting. You describe the planes
:06:56. > :07:01.flying into the two towers, and you said it was magnificent, how can you
:07:02. > :07:04.justify that as Islam, Jewish or Christian. If you start the war we
:07:05. > :07:10.won't give the other cheek. The actual killing of innocent civilians
:07:11. > :07:13.can't be right? It can't be right according to you. According to you
:07:14. > :07:20.it can't be right. According to Islam it is absolutely right. A year
:07:21. > :07:26.later, immediately after the London bombings, I caught up with another
:07:27. > :07:31.leading figure in the group. What I would say about those who do suicide
:07:32. > :07:37.operations or martyr operations, suicide is a term kind in the media,
:07:38. > :07:43.they are completely praiseworthy. Remember the man who called the 9/11
:07:44. > :07:48.attacks magnificent, we talked to him in 2005. For them the banner has
:07:49. > :07:51.been risen inside the UK for Jihad. For them they are allowed to attack,
:07:52. > :07:55.they have probably many other cells in the UK. What the radicals say,
:07:56. > :08:03.and they have said it to me personally, you are a kaffer you are
:08:04. > :08:07.less worthwhile than a -- kaffir, and you are less worthwhile than a
:08:08. > :08:13.fellow Muslim? They are absolutely wrong. To judge who is what is not
:08:14. > :08:24.any Muslim or any person's business, we are not gods. It is God's
:08:25. > :08:30.business to judge. Anjum Choudray refused to condemn Lee Rigby's
:08:31. > :08:50.murder, he prefers to condemn Muslim murders around the world. He said:
:08:51. > :08:56.There is another radical, a supporter of the group, who
:08:57. > :09:04.reportedly came into contact with Lee Rigby's killers. His name is
:09:05. > :09:09.Usman Ali, he has previously admitted joining the group in the
:09:10. > :09:13.199 #0S. This was his local mosque, Greenwich Islamic Centre. He used to
:09:14. > :09:18.run prayer sessions here. The mosque leadership spent ?30,000 of their
:09:19. > :09:22.own money taking him to court after they said he had shown footage of
:09:23. > :09:28.the 9/11 attacks to an audience, including children. In 2007 the
:09:29. > :09:34.court agreed to a lifetime ban. After he got kicked out of the
:09:35. > :09:39.Islamic Centre, the former member of the group came here to the community
:09:40. > :09:42.centre in Plumstead, this place has received some council funding. We
:09:43. > :09:47.understand that the two killers attended at least some of his
:09:48. > :09:53.lectures here. The council denies there is a problem with extremist
:09:54. > :09:59.preaching at the centre. We tried to speak to Usman Ali, but he declined
:10:00. > :10:03.to answer questions. Previously he denied's extremist, and says doesn't
:10:04. > :10:08.support terrorism. We Muslims have suffered, and if we do not take
:10:09. > :10:14.action then we will suffer even more. But in order to be fective
:10:15. > :10:20.then we need the support of the Government, the state, the people.
:10:21. > :10:27.Massive mobilisation at all levels from schools, colleges,
:10:28. > :10:31.universities, mosques, churches, any place of gathering this should be
:10:32. > :10:35.the discussion. There are signs of a fundamental re-think about how to
:10:36. > :10:40.tackle extremism. This document published just a couple of weeks ago
:10:41. > :10:44.by a special Government task force contains a very interesting clause,
:10:45. > :10:48.it says we have been too reticent to deal with extremism in this country.
:10:49. > :10:53.In part, because of a misplaced concern that attacking Islamist
:10:54. > :10:58.extremism equates to an attack on Islam itself. It is clear after the
:10:59. > :11:05.murder of Lee Rigby the Maoed is about to change. But change is
:11:06. > :11:14.coming late. 12 years after -- the mood is about to change. But change
:11:15. > :11:18.is coming late, 12 years after 9/11, and ten years after Britain accepted
:11:19. > :11:24.radicals saying they weren't plotting terrorism here. Lee Rigby's
:11:25. > :11:30.murder carries another meaning, can the will be found to tackle
:11:31. > :11:34.extremism, not just those who plan violence but those who preach hate.
:11:35. > :11:43.This is the biggest security challenge for the UK. To discuss
:11:44. > :11:49.that I'm joined now by my guests. Baroness Polly Neville Jones, a
:11:50. > :11:55.senior researcher of the anti-extreme agency, and a senior
:11:56. > :11:59.research fellow. These men were radicalised not just by the Internet
:12:00. > :12:03.or even on the Internet, but out on the streets, out in different
:12:04. > :12:08.places. Why were they not picked up. We have seen that they actually were
:12:09. > :12:11.very public in their condemnation of the west? We have also seen that
:12:12. > :12:14.there are hundreds of young men like this, probably thousands with those
:12:15. > :12:18.views and the Security Services can't keep an eye on two or three
:12:19. > :12:23.thousand people 24/7. That is the essence of the problem. Also has
:12:24. > :12:27.there been a disconnect that other Muslims perhaps who know them or who
:12:28. > :12:31.live in the street beside them are reluctant to come forward? It is
:12:32. > :12:34.possible that some of their friend or close family may have known about
:12:35. > :12:37.this, and that we know it is very difficult to get close knit
:12:38. > :12:42.communities and families to speak out. The fundamental challenge is to
:12:43. > :12:44.destroy the argument that they use. Those placards in the street, what
:12:45. > :12:48.he was saying, all those arguments need to be taken head on. Do you
:12:49. > :12:52.think part of the problem is there has not been a preparedness to take
:12:53. > :12:56.these arguments head on, not a preparedness to discuss British
:12:57. > :13:00.foreign policy, not a preparedness to discuss how you pond to it if you
:13:01. > :13:04.are unhappy about it. Even to be seen to be discussing this flags you
:13:05. > :13:08.out as extremist? I don't think that is the case, I do think that
:13:09. > :13:11.Government has to be prepared to defend the policies that it pursues,
:13:12. > :13:14.but I think the Government has been pretty clear for some time. The
:13:15. > :13:19.issue is not just violence, it is actually extremism. And where we
:13:20. > :13:23.need to go now is developing a policy which actually tackle
:13:24. > :13:27.extremism. That is the root of the thing. We have to live in a country
:13:28. > :13:30.where we share basic values. Do you agree that the problem is there are
:13:31. > :13:35.so many people that hold the similar views that it is impossible to track
:13:36. > :13:40.them down. One of them was actually ejected from Kenya, one was filmed
:13:41. > :13:45.on a soapbox, are they so off the radar? Two things, one is clearly
:13:46. > :13:49.you have to pursue and you have to try to get hold of, and you have to
:13:50. > :13:52.try to neutralise those who are already down the road to violence,
:13:53. > :13:56.but there is a separate very important task, which is prevent
:13:57. > :14:02.others following them. That is where we have to go to limit the numbers.
:14:03. > :14:04.Now we have this document about tackling extremism, is the
:14:05. > :14:07.Government going about this the right way? Parts of the document
:14:08. > :14:13.should definitely be welcomed. Which parts? To actually define extremism
:14:14. > :14:18.and to say that is at the root of this is very important. Some of the
:14:19. > :14:22.focus on universities, on prisons, there are a number of things to be
:14:23. > :14:27.welcomed. But, at the same time they advocated a lot of consultation,
:14:28. > :14:30.looking at new legislation, are you trying to be seen to do something
:14:31. > :14:34.new? But actually we have a significant body of counter
:14:35. > :14:39.terrorism legislation that we just simply don't enforce. Is part of the
:14:40. > :14:43.reason we don't enforce that a timidity, a danger to be seen to be
:14:44. > :14:46.anti-Islamic? It may be, I think also some of the offences I'm
:14:47. > :14:51.thinking of, like prescribed organisation offences are quite hard
:14:52. > :14:59.to prove, and I think there might be an unwillingness or inability to do
:15:00. > :15:04.so. I think given the men's connections to the extremism group
:15:05. > :15:07.the offences need to be taken seriously, they can be used to
:15:08. > :15:12.disrupt the extremist preaching we are so concerned about. A
:15:13. > :15:16.contributor to the film says the Government needs to do more, needs
:15:17. > :15:20.to step in and help more. The idea of helping Imams on campuses and so
:15:21. > :15:25.forth to make sure they are picking out people who are problematic. Do
:15:26. > :15:30.you think that is enough, or do we need to have a whole different
:15:31. > :15:32.discussion about the way we conduct foreign policy? I don't think it is
:15:33. > :15:35.Government but people who work with Government. It is civic society that
:15:36. > :15:38.needs to take the lead there, more Government support actually ruins
:15:39. > :15:42.the work because people say Government sell-out. It needs Muslim
:15:43. > :15:46.leadership, Muslim communities to stand up to the hate preachers and
:15:47. > :15:50.say enough of this in our mosques, community centres, campuses. It is a
:15:51. > :15:53.small minority and they are very vocal. They are challenging the
:15:54. > :15:56.Government report saying it is anti-Islam, those arguments need to
:15:57. > :15:59.be challenged. It is civilic society, decent Muslims need to
:16:00. > :16:05.stand up. It is interesting you should say that the decent Muslims
:16:06. > :16:09.of which 99% plus are the case. But within the Muslim communities don't
:16:10. > :16:11.we need to have much more engagment within the broader parts of the
:16:12. > :16:15.United Kingdom, we are discussing this with each other? Certainly we
:16:16. > :16:22.need wider society to discuss this. But when you say 99% of decent
:16:23. > :16:26.Muslim, the proportion of extremist sympathisers is very high. Some of
:16:27. > :16:33.those slogans, people won't support terrorism or violence but they will
:16:34. > :16:37.support the anti-western and pro-Sharia. How do you deal with
:16:38. > :16:41.that, they might not agree with it whole heartedly but they won't, as
:16:42. > :16:45.it were turn people in. There is a lot of people like that it has just
:16:46. > :16:50.been said? You have several problems and you can't tackle all of them and
:16:51. > :16:53.solve all of them. Some people will actually slip and get through the
:16:54. > :16:57.net because they are not reported on. Having said that, I don't think
:16:58. > :17:01.that should be, we need to pursue those people, but we need to do a
:17:02. > :17:04.lot of other things as well. Where I think we do need to focus our
:17:05. > :17:07.attention in the light of what the Prime Minister himself has been
:17:08. > :17:11.saying about extremism is that actually we need to enlarge the
:17:12. > :17:14.programmes which are directed absolutely specifically at creating
:17:15. > :17:20.a much more integrated community in this country. That's very important.
:17:21. > :17:45.Put money in there. One thing you think would make a difference? going
:17:46. > :17:49.unchallenged. Enforcing existing legislation and taking seriously
:17:50. > :17:53.people in mosques and universities. Institutions or people promoting
:17:54. > :18:13.those views is unacceptable. We need to do both. Thank you very much.
:18:14. > :18:19.Now when David Cameron announced an inquiry where the judge Sir Peter
:18:20. > :18:23.Gibson, into allegations of British involvement in rendition flights and
:18:24. > :18:25.the abuse of terror suspect, the Prime Minister said he was
:18:26. > :18:29.determined to clear things up in order to restore Britain's moral
:18:30. > :18:33.leadership. That inDwyery was parked -- inquiry was parked last year, so
:18:34. > :18:37.as not to compromise police investigations, today in the Commons
:18:38. > :18:42.there were accusations of whitewash when the Government presented
:18:43. > :18:46.Gibson's interim findings. He said they would be taken up by the
:18:47. > :18:58.Intelligence and Security Committee instead.
:18:59. > :19:03.27 questions of what happened in the aftermath of 9/11, how our security
:19:04. > :19:10.forces acts and whether they were complicit in kidnap and torture. The
:19:11. > :19:16.first stories of rendition, ghost flights and black prisons trickled
:19:17. > :19:21.out in the early 2000s, claims the CIA was deliberately moving
:19:22. > :19:24.prisoners between a network of secret jails, how much did MI6 and
:19:25. > :19:30.the British Government know about this? In 2010 David Cameron promised
:19:31. > :19:35.an independent inquiry, led by a judge, to many that question. The
:19:36. > :19:39.longer these questions remain unanswered the bigger the stain on
:19:40. > :19:45.our reputation as a country that believes in freedom and fairness and
:19:46. > :19:51.human rights. Sir Peter Gibson has had access to 20,000 top secret
:19:52. > :19:57.files. After a two-year review he chooses his words carefully. It does
:19:58. > :20:02.appear from the documents that the United Kingdom may have been
:20:03. > :20:08.inappropriately involved in some renditions, that is a very serious
:20:09. > :20:11.matter. But Sir Peter's inquiry was forced to stop work early, that is
:20:12. > :20:15.because of what's alleged to have happened in this Libyan prison. The
:20:16. > :20:19.police are still investigating claims that British spies provided
:20:20. > :20:25.tip-offs which led to suspects being tortured. The Minister without
:20:26. > :20:29.Portfolio. Mr Keneth Clarke. In a report to parliament, Sir Peter set
:20:30. > :20:33.out 27 different questions, the Security Services still need to
:20:34. > :20:36.answer about rendition. In a U-turn the inquiry will now be by
:20:37. > :20:42.parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee, and not the
:20:43. > :20:48.promised independent judge. The Prime Minister was right to have
:20:49. > :20:52.initiated a judge-led inquiry, I'm sorry to see it go, that would have
:20:53. > :20:56.been the best way to restore public confidence. You need to bear in mind
:20:57. > :21:00.that the Intelligence and Security Committee has already done a report
:21:01. > :21:04.into this in 2007. They came to the conclusion that there were no
:21:05. > :21:09.problems on this issue of kidnap and torture and they were completely
:21:10. > :21:13.wrong. The following year the High Court concluded that Britain had
:21:14. > :21:19.facilitated kidnap and torture. The decision is also a blow to math man,
:21:20. > :21:24.the Libyan, Hakim Belhadj. He claims MI6 provided information which led
:21:25. > :21:30.to his kidnap and rendition in 2004. Without having a largely open
:21:31. > :21:34.process, where those who have been abused get to put their case forward
:21:35. > :21:38.and we get to cross-examine witnesses, without those measures in
:21:39. > :21:42.place you won't get to the truth of what really happened. The man who
:21:43. > :21:49.would lead the new inquiry said the public can have faith in the
:21:50. > :21:54.committee. The law now requires the intelligence agencies, They have a
:21:55. > :21:59.statutory duty to provide the information we seek. Our staff for
:22:00. > :22:04.the first time ever go into MI six, MI5 and can themselves examine the
:22:05. > :22:07.files. There can be confidence that anything that is relevant we will
:22:08. > :22:11.see. With 27 different questions to answer, the committee will have to
:22:12. > :22:18.work hard to prove it can be as independent as the judge-led inquiry
:22:19. > :22:22.once promised by David Cameron. Menzies Campbell, a member of the
:22:23. > :22:26.Intelligence Security Committee joins me from Edinburgh, Clare Algar
:22:27. > :22:31.the executive director of human rights Campaign Group Reprieve, is
:22:32. > :22:34.here in London. First of all, your manifesto commitment called for a
:22:35. > :22:38.judge-led inquiry, you have been involved in two previous committee
:22:39. > :22:40.inquiries that came up with absolutely nothing, that is
:22:41. > :22:45.hopeless, isn't it? I wouldn't say that at all. The conclusions reached
:22:46. > :22:48.on previous occasions were based on the information that was made
:22:49. > :22:52.aveilable to the committee -- available to the committee. There
:22:53. > :22:56.wasn't the opportunity to examine the 20,000 documents that Sir Peter
:22:57. > :22:59.Gibson's preliminary inquiry has examined. And the powers of the
:23:00. > :23:03.committee at that time were quite different as Malcolm Rifkind has
:23:04. > :23:07.just pointed out. These are very different circumstances, obtained at
:23:08. > :23:11.a time when the judge-led inquiry was promised. They are different
:23:12. > :23:14.circumstances but the interesting thing as Menzies Campbell said, they
:23:15. > :23:18.didn't have access to the other information then, which shows that
:23:19. > :23:26.both the inquiries stood for nothing. Yes, I mean as was
:23:27. > :23:33.mentioned earlier, our client Hakim Belhadj was rendered to Libya in
:23:34. > :23:40.2004, when Tripoli fell we found a letter in the office of the spy
:23:41. > :23:45.master Mousa Koussa, signed by the director of MI6, taking personal
:23:46. > :23:52.credit for the air cargo delivered, and three years later the IOC knows
:23:53. > :24:00.nothing about it. And the next thing referred to in the report was
:24:01. > :24:02.referring to Mr Muhammad's case is there is nothing referring to the
:24:03. > :24:05.case. You know something will happen because it couldn't possibly not
:24:06. > :24:16.happen now with the raising of the flag? The changes to the ISC can
:24:17. > :24:20.demand rather than request documents and the ISC was previously made up
:24:21. > :24:25.of people chosen by the Prime Minister is now people nominated by
:24:26. > :24:28.the Prime Minister and then elected. It doesn't seem that it will have
:24:29. > :24:38.the credibility that the Prime Minister was going for with the
:24:39. > :24:42.judge-led panel. Society has Prior to becoming a member of the
:24:43. > :24:46.Intelligence Security Committee I had great interest into this, I was
:24:47. > :24:50.the first one to raise the question of whether Diego Garcia was used for
:24:51. > :24:53.that purpose. I have a strong interest in asking the kind of
:24:54. > :24:59.questions necessary to get to the truth. On that point let me
:25:00. > :25:02.interrupt just a second. Based on the 20,000 documents. On that very
:25:03. > :25:09.point you are making about rendition, one of the Reprieve
:25:10. > :25:14.reports said there were 107 drops by CIA flights? I asked questions about
:25:15. > :25:20.that as well and didn't get what I now understand to be satisfactory
:25:21. > :25:25.answers. But just remember this, the claim of whitewash is easy to make,
:25:26. > :25:29.it is difficult to disprove until the work is carried out and there is
:25:30. > :25:35.no other Select Committee of parliament which has as its
:25:36. > :25:41.membership, among its membership three QCs and a former cabinet
:25:42. > :25:44.secretary, all of with experience of cross-examination, and in the
:25:45. > :25:47.cabinet secretary's case a real and intimate understanding of how
:25:48. > :25:51.intelligence is treated in Government. Yet when you have the
:25:52. > :25:55.opportunity to cross-examine the three spy chiefs, they were handed
:25:56. > :25:58.the questions in advance and they weren't exactly grilled. That was
:25:59. > :26:01.the very first time that any spy chief had appeared in public. Not
:26:02. > :26:06.surprisingly they were concerned that they did not reveal classified
:26:07. > :26:10.information, and so too was the committee. But we have broken that
:26:11. > :26:15.particular ice and you can be certain that people like myself and
:26:16. > :26:20.others on the committee will not spare any service chief or any
:26:21. > :26:27.officer of any service if we feel it is necessary in order to get to the
:26:28. > :26:32.truth. It is a credibility point. That was the moment when the
:26:33. > :26:36.newly-fledged ISC was there. A Tory MP called it a pantomime. We have to
:26:37. > :26:40.stop it there, thank you very much, we will be returning to this.
:26:41. > :26:44.Back to the news that part of the ceiling of the Apollo Theatre in
:26:45. > :26:50.London has collapsed urgh a performance. What is the latest now?
:26:51. > :26:56.Kirsty, we know now that there have been no fatalities from this. We
:26:57. > :27:01.have the total number of injured, 85 is total, 81 walking wounded that is
:27:02. > :27:04.cuts and bruises and the like, four more seriously injured but nothing
:27:05. > :27:09.life-threatening. Those four have been taken to three hospitals around
:27:10. > :27:15.London, including UCH and St Thomas's. When I got here just
:27:16. > :27:20.before 9.00, it was a chaotic scene, there was a lot of police shouting
:27:21. > :27:26.about people getting behind cordons, thousands of people out partying in
:27:27. > :27:29.Soho as they do, trying to bring that to order. Sigh witnesses
:27:30. > :27:36.telling accounts of what happened with so the on their faces. faces.
:27:37. > :27:42.00 packed into the theatre watching The Curious Incident of the Dog In
:27:43. > :27:45.The Nightime, four minutes in there was a cracking sound and dust came
:27:46. > :27:51.down into the ceiling, and quarter or a third of the ceiling fell down
:27:52. > :27:56.on to the stalls, not the higher circles, it is a fairly steep
:27:57. > :27:59.theatre it fell on to the stalls, there was dust everywhere and people
:28:00. > :28:03.started moving out. Within three minutes the police were on the scene
:28:04. > :28:12.taking things in hand. Some of the injured were taken to the Gielguld
:28:13. > :28:16.theatre and other theatres to be attended to. I have seen a crane
:28:17. > :28:22.going up to the roof of the theatre trying to fix it. Vladimir Putin
:28:23. > :28:25.waited until the very end of his press conference today confirming
:28:26. > :28:31.that the amnesty for Russian prisoners would include the two
:28:32. > :28:35.jailed members of Pussy Riot, and the 30-member crew of the Greenpeace
:28:36. > :28:42.protest ship before dropping a bombshell, that he intended to on
:28:43. > :28:46.freeing the former oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky. It is to ease tensions
:28:47. > :28:50.ahead of the winter Olympics in Sochi, what will be the future of
:28:51. > :28:57.Khodorkovsky, once one of the world's richest men. Several weeks
:28:58. > :29:06.after my arrest I was informed that President Putnam Putin had decided I
:29:07. > :29:11.was going to have to slurp gruel for 20 years. The words of Mikhail
:29:12. > :29:16.Khodorkovsky spoken at a German conference for human rights last
:29:17. > :29:21.month titled From Russia With Love. For me, like anybody, it is hard to
:29:22. > :29:29.live in jail and I do not want to die there. He spoke those words in a
:29:30. > :29:33.court in 2010, facing charges of imbeling $20 billion. New charges
:29:34. > :29:37.and a new trial, he had already been in jail for seven years.
:29:38. > :29:41.Khodorkovsky got rich after his bank lent money to a Russian state-owned
:29:42. > :29:44.oil company, these loans were later swapped for underpriced shares, soon
:29:45. > :29:51.worth billions, before he turned 40 he was the richest man in Russia.
:29:52. > :29:57.But in February 2003 Khodorkovsky went on national TV and made
:29:58. > :30:03.allegations of high-level corruption. His fate was sealed. I'm
:30:04. > :30:37.also here as a son of Mikhail Khodorkovsky.
:30:38. > :30:41.circumstances of a humanitarian nature. His mother is ill, and I
:30:42. > :30:46.think that bearing in mind those circumstances it is possible to make
:30:47. > :30:54.that decision and I will soon sign an order about his pardon. With the
:30:55. > :30:58.winter Olympics in Sochi coming up, sceptics may believe that President
:30:59. > :31:02.Putin is concerned about avoiding another boycott of a Russian
:31:03. > :31:06.Olympics. I'm joined by the former Prime Minister who knows Mr
:31:07. > :31:12.Khodorkovsky and was the former Prime Minister of Russia in the
:31:13. > :31:18.early 20000s. Good evening -- 2000s, what calculation do you think that
:31:19. > :31:23.Putnam is making by releasing Mikhail Khodorkovsky? Good evening,
:31:24. > :31:31.I think the decision which Mr Putin announced today is absolutely
:31:32. > :31:38.connected to the up coming Olympic Games, in fact Mr Khodorkovsky
:31:39. > :31:42.should be an announcing his sentence period next July, six or seven
:31:43. > :31:47.months ahead, but Mr Putin made a decision to release, in fact to
:31:48. > :31:53.pardon him, and explaining that there was a special request almost
:31:54. > :31:59.as it was a recognition of guilt, that was absolutely not. This
:32:00. > :32:08.cynical approach of Mr Putin is very clear. Of course everyone who just
:32:09. > :32:13.quite is indifferent to what is going on in Russia, my country,
:32:14. > :32:17.understands that the whole criminal sentence was fabricated by
:32:18. > :32:24.authorities and Mr Putin was just on top of all these special operations.
:32:25. > :32:27.What do you think will happen now to Mr Khodorkovsky, do you think he
:32:28. > :32:31.will try to pursue a political career again, do you think he will
:32:32. > :32:36.stay in Russia, do you think there have been conditions put on his
:32:37. > :32:46.pardon? We don't know whether conditions were put, but in fact it
:32:47. > :32:49.was about his being in politics. He was never in politics, but I think
:32:50. > :32:59.he will continue to do what he did before his arrest, just trying to
:33:00. > :33:05.finance and to support civil society developments, different causes, used
:33:06. > :33:09.to support young people, internet involvement and development of the
:33:10. > :33:13.internet over all Russia. But he was publicly critical of Vladimir Putin.
:33:14. > :33:19.Do you think now he will have to keep his mouth shut? I think he will
:33:20. > :33:26.continue to stay on the critical positions. Of course not in such a
:33:27. > :33:30.harsh manner as we in the real opposition do, but in any case he
:33:31. > :33:36.will continue to stay on this platform. You and he are friends and
:33:37. > :33:40.you spoke on behalf of his oil company, you spoke on behalf of him.
:33:41. > :33:44.He supports you I understand. Do you think that you will call on his
:33:45. > :33:51.support again if indeed you decide to run for office again? We were
:33:52. > :33:56.never friends, Mr Khodorkovsky was one of the biggest and richest
:33:57. > :34:01.people when I was Prime Minister at that time. We had very tough talks
:34:02. > :34:08.when we launched our tax reforms and Mr Khodorkovsky in the beginning was
:34:09. > :34:12.afraid of these reforms. But later understanding that we were very
:34:13. > :34:16.consistent in our pursuing the reform he started to support. And
:34:17. > :34:22.then in the end he became just I would say a supporter of reforms in
:34:23. > :34:28.Russia, but, in fact, I knew what happened at that time and I was
:34:29. > :34:33.witnessing in a court proceedings Mr Khodorkovsky was not guilty and the
:34:34. > :34:36.whole operation was fabricated by the authorities. That is clear for
:34:37. > :34:45.all educated people. Thank you very much for joining us. President
:34:46. > :34:48.Obama's health care reform was designed to extend health insurance
:34:49. > :34:53.to the estimated 15% of Americans without it. But the roll-out has
:34:54. > :34:57.been beset by problems, not least a website proved insufficient to the
:34:58. > :35:00.task. It has suffered more than technical problems, some
:35:01. > :35:03.Republican-run states like Mississippi have rejected the plan
:35:04. > :35:08.but also federal money that will come with it.
:35:09. > :35:12.We travelled across Mississippi asking how Obamacare is being
:35:13. > :35:30.received in one of America's poorest and sickest states. Oak Hill Baptist
:35:31. > :35:38.Church is a little different for the south. It is not the funk or the
:35:39. > :35:43.faith that sets them apart, it is that fried chicken is banned from
:35:44. > :35:47.church socials, in a state where they are evangelical about fried
:35:48. > :35:53.food. # All right Meet Pastor Michael
:35:54. > :35:58.Minor, a man filled with more than just religious passion. He wants to
:35:59. > :36:03.improve his congregation's health in a state where obesity, heart disease
:36:04. > :36:11.and cancer rates are sky high, he sees signing people up to Obamacare
:36:12. > :36:13.as a spiritual duty, a cure for his congregations' hurt.
:36:14. > :36:17.# Are you glad # That God loves you
:36:18. > :36:22.# You, you and you # He loves you.
:36:23. > :36:26.If you don't have health insurance it hurts you three ways, you hurt
:36:27. > :36:29.mentally because you worry about not having insurance, you hurt
:36:30. > :36:33.physically because you are not having the check-ups you need. And
:36:34. > :36:37.spiritually because you are wondering what about your
:36:38. > :36:42.relationship with God, if you are not careful you are start wondering
:36:43. > :36:49.to yourself why would God let me wander into this spot where I have
:36:50. > :36:52.no coverage. There is an aching disappointment here that the
:36:53. > :36:56.Republicans, who control the state, will have nothing to do with
:36:57. > :37:00.Obamacare, which makes it far more difficult for people to sign up.
:37:01. > :37:04.Some see old forces at work. That ain't no news for Mississippi. Why
:37:05. > :37:07.do you think it is? Because of the prejudice that we have in
:37:08. > :37:13.Mississippi, not because of the care, it is because of the black man
:37:14. > :37:18.that is trying to bring this affordable care. And Mississippi has
:37:19. > :37:27.always, I was born in Mississippi, but Mississippi has always been
:37:28. > :37:32.prejudiced. The land where the Blues began, still has its share of woes,
:37:33. > :37:36.in the poorest state in the USA, the cost of health insurance under the
:37:37. > :37:40.President's plan will be higher than in much richer places because of the
:37:41. > :37:43.bad health. One in five don't have health cover at the moment and the
:37:44. > :37:53.state's opposition puts off insurance companies joining in. Only
:37:54. > :37:56.two are interested. One of them is taking its office out on the road,
:37:57. > :38:03.but in the morning we spent with them, not a single person showed any
:38:04. > :38:09.interest. There is overwhelming hostility to Obamacare, practical
:38:10. > :38:13.and politically. It contradicts a free country. Being made to have
:38:14. > :38:16.health insurance? Being made to have everything. I don't see anything
:38:17. > :38:20.wrong with it, it is a good programme, it is the fact you have
:38:21. > :38:25.to have it. I like what I have got, and the price I have got, the prices
:38:26. > :38:30.don't sound good. You think you will pay more? Much more. The hostility
:38:31. > :38:34.of younger and fitter peop could doom Obamacare if not enough sign up
:38:35. > :38:38.by next spring it won't work. We need to be doing what we need to do
:38:39. > :38:41.ourselves, I don't think we need to go through anybody else to say we
:38:42. > :38:45.need health care, if we need health care we need to say for ourself that
:38:46. > :38:53.we need it. Have you got health care? No, Sir. Are you going to sign
:38:54. > :38:56.up? I probably pay the fine. Many doctors won't have anything to do
:38:57. > :38:59.with Obamacare either, or even existing plans for the retired and
:39:00. > :39:04.poor. They say they don't get paid enough. Dr Eric Richardson said
:39:05. > :39:07.patients will end up paying more, doctors will get less and only the
:39:08. > :39:11.insurance companies will get rich. But he also thinks it is plain
:39:12. > :39:14.wrong. You know you are talking about 250 years of the constitution
:39:15. > :39:22.in the United States and now this is being told to the American citizens,
:39:23. > :39:26.you must buy health care, and that's a new law thrust on each individual
:39:27. > :39:29.by the Government. There is a degree of contention there. Would it be
:39:30. > :39:35.great to have coverage for all Americans, is it a good idea to --
:39:36. > :39:40.yes. Is it a good idea to make it a law I'm not so sure. Just as the
:39:41. > :39:44.mighty Mississippi carves its way down the centre of the United
:39:45. > :39:48.States, so Obamacare divides this country politically. It too has the
:39:49. > :39:55.potential and the power to transform the land cape all around it. It will
:39:56. > :40:00.be this President's legacy, and whether it succeeds or fails in
:40:01. > :40:10.states like this will be hugely important for the party and his
:40:11. > :40:14.reputation. This is what a Tea Party, party looks like. A festive
:40:15. > :40:19.gathering to meet state senator, Chris McDaniel, he's taking on his
:40:20. > :40:22.own party's establishment and challenging the Republican senator
:40:23. > :40:25.who have had the job for 30 years. What is so wrong with trying to take
:40:26. > :40:32.care of the health care system without a centralised Government
:40:33. > :40:37.doing it. He's thinking blocking Obamacare and fighting it all the
:40:38. > :40:40.way is a vote-winner. He needs to honour or constitution, just because
:40:41. > :40:43.something is a good idea you don't violate the constitution. You have
:40:44. > :40:47.to ask the question can it be afforded and administered
:40:48. > :40:52.effectively and efficiently, what we have seen it is so structurally
:40:53. > :40:56.unsound and deficient it can't be. Others think conservatives fear a
:40:57. > :41:00.potentially popular programme. Let's be honest, a lot of people on the
:41:01. > :41:04.other side of the political spectrum they do recognise it is something
:41:05. > :41:08.that literally could change a whole generation. Because you want to make
:41:09. > :41:15.something look bad because if it turns out other people like it who
:41:16. > :41:20.will they give credit to. Perhaps the President's plan will end up
:41:21. > :41:27.being praised in America's sickest state. But the south is riven,
:41:28. > :41:32.suspicion, hostility and poverty may combine to put redemption beyond
:41:33. > :41:38.reach for Obamacare. A telescope designed to create the
:41:39. > :41:44.most accurate map of our galaxy and discover unknown planets and
:41:45. > :41:50.asteroids blasted into space. Gaia, the personification of the God that
:41:51. > :41:57.gave birth to the universe, is on a mission to map the stars. And
:41:58. > :42:05.British scientist have been on the forefront. At nine. Ten GMT Gaia
:42:06. > :42:13.took to the skies from French Guiana. Its five-year mission, to
:42:14. > :42:23.unlock the secrets of the Milky Way. At a distance of one. Five million
:42:24. > :42:28.kilometres beyond earth. It will measure the brightness of a billion
:42:29. > :42:33.stars. Creating a three dimensional map of our galaxy and beyond. On
:42:34. > :42:37.board Gaia is the biggest camera ever flown into space, along with
:42:38. > :42:41.two optical telescopes. Together they are capable of measuring the
:42:42. > :42:44.position of the stars extraordinarily accurately. So
:42:45. > :42:49.accurately it could see the equivalent to the width of a human
:42:50. > :42:54.hair at 2,000kms. Except, of course it won't be looking for human hairs,
:42:55. > :43:00.but big stars at even bigger distances. The project, 20 years in
:43:01. > :43:05.the making has been described as the biggest "selfie" in history. I'm
:43:06. > :43:09.joined by the senior scientific adviser in the European Space
:43:10. > :43:26.Agency's directorate in science and robotic exploration, who joins us
:43:27. > :43:30.from the Nethelands. T How will it transform things? As you said we
:43:31. > :43:33.will be measuring a billions stars in the Milky Way extremely
:43:34. > :43:37.accurately, not just the positions but how they move. It aknows us to
:43:38. > :43:41.make a move year, we can run the movie forwards and see how the Milky
:43:42. > :43:44.Way will turn out in billions of years time, and more importantly we
:43:45. > :43:48.can run it backwards and see where all the stars, a billion stars, 1%
:43:49. > :43:52.of all the stars in the galaxy, where they came from. We know the
:43:53. > :43:55.Milky Way didn't form as one thing, it formed out of pieces, out of
:43:56. > :44:00.smaller galaxies that merged together. In that coming together,
:44:01. > :44:03.they left a trail in our Milky Way today, which we can see in the
:44:04. > :44:10.movements of the stars today. Therefore we can trace the history
:44:11. > :44:14.of the Milky Way with Gaia. Is it about archaeology or an endeavour
:44:15. > :44:18.that will make a difference? It is partly archaeology, but in order to
:44:19. > :44:23.be able to run this movie backwards we have to make one of the biggest
:44:24. > :44:27.star at logs ever made. That will enable enormous new discoveries to
:44:28. > :44:31.be made in atrophysics across many domains, we will be discovering lots
:44:32. > :44:34.of new planets going around other stars, because by measure measuring
:44:35. > :44:37.the motions of the stars we will spot some of them that might be
:44:38. > :44:41.wobbling with planets going around them. We will find asteroids in the
:44:42. > :44:45.Solar System, near to us, some on a collision course with the earth.
:44:46. > :44:49.That is good to know about. We will find supernova, exploding stars and
:44:50. > :44:55.things we hadn't thought of at this point. How likely is it that we will
:44:56. > :44:59.find signs of life? Well Gaia is not designed to do that, what it will do
:45:00. > :45:04.is find lots of new planetary systems, planets going around stars,
:45:05. > :45:07.elsewhere in the Milky Way. Those will become prime targets for
:45:08. > :45:14.follow-up observations with other observe trees, either on the ground
:45:15. > :45:22.or in 2018 the James Webb telescope, a big problem we are working on with
:45:23. > :45:27.NASA. When there will be the first results? The satellite is on its way
:45:28. > :45:31.to a point one. Five million kilometres away. We will see numbers
:45:32. > :45:34.soon to check the instruments out. Anything it discovers in the first
:45:35. > :45:37.few months, rapidly changing or varying objects we will have those
:45:38. > :45:42.out straightaway. They will be open to the community. The big catalogue
:45:43. > :45:46.and final result will take us a full five years plus some data
:45:47. > :45:52.processing, it is a colossal amount of data we take. We have to analyse
:45:53. > :45:57.it all in one go to make one big map of the galaxy we live in. It is a
:45:58. > :46:00.little while coming, we have waited 20 years already, we can wait a few
:46:01. > :46:04.more. That's all for tonight, join
:46:05. > :46:09.Victoria for our last show of 2013 tomorrow night. Before we go Marylin
:46:10. > :46:15.Monroe may have been brought back tonight for Christmas to advertise
:46:16. > :46:20.an iconic perfume, Elvis Presley may have done better, his voice coming
:46:21. > :46:26.from the mouth of a Canadian teenager. He has been a superstar
:46:27. > :46:32.and a media dearlying. # When those blue snowflakes
:46:33. > :46:45.# Start falling # That's when those blue
:46:46. > :46:51.# Memories are calling # You'll be doing all right with
:46:52. > :47:00.Christmas so white # But I'll be blue, blue, blue
:47:01. > :47:05.Christmas A cold night tonight, with showers, it may be icy for the
:47:06. > :47:09.morning rush hour, generally a dry and bright start to Friday with
:47:10. > :47:13.sunshine. But another batch of wet and windy weather will come sweeping
:47:14. > :47:15.across the UK. Looking like a fairly missable afternoon across Northern
:47:16. > :47:16.Ireland