:00:09. > :00:14.You Hello, happy new year. Unless electioneering politicians get on
:00:15. > :00:18.your nerves in which case you have 16 months of irritation to look
:00:19. > :00:22.forward to and photo shoots. The Chancellor is keen for us to know
:00:23. > :00:28.there are plenty more cuts on the way and that those on benefits can
:00:29. > :00:31.take a lot more pain. I will be asking this Treasury Minister why he
:00:32. > :00:37.wants to pick on the most vulnerable people in society? Will this
:00:38. > :00:41.brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking very
:00:42. > :00:46.slowly towards the enemy, Sir? How could you possibly know that, it is
:00:47. > :00:49.classified information. Has our understanding of the First World War
:00:50. > :00:52.been distorted by left-wing prejudice? The Education Secretary
:00:53. > :01:02.suggests this man might have something to do with it. I saw you
:01:03. > :01:07.talking with her? Tell me? I cannot speak about what did not occur. And
:01:08. > :01:11.the film they are saying is the most unflinching portrayal of American
:01:12. > :01:19.slavery et. We talk to its director. I don't make films for white people!
:01:20. > :01:30.I just don't! My film is about us rather than specific group of
:01:31. > :01:34.people. The political new year began today, not that it looks very
:01:35. > :01:36.different to the last one. Indeed the Chancellor of the Exchequer's
:01:37. > :01:42.promises that next year will look much the same too. He believes
:01:43. > :01:46.another ?25 billion has to be cut from public spending after the next
:01:47. > :01:52.election. About half of that from welfare. Cue Nick Clegg, leader of
:01:53. > :01:57.the party he's suppose to be governing with saying cuts like that
:01:58. > :02:06.will be a monumental mistake. Our political thor Allegra Stratton is
:02:07. > :02:10.away having given birth to a son and Emily Maitless is covering.
:02:11. > :02:17.The sound of Christmas past, the removal of the fir and tree and
:02:18. > :02:22.amidst the odd bauble or two Westminster welcomed the day they
:02:23. > :02:26.reassuringly dubbed "the most depressing of the year". A bit of a
:02:27. > :02:30.back to school feeling, washed out and defeated by the weather before
:02:31. > :02:37.it had begun. But today is not just any day, you understand, today is an
:02:38. > :02:40.historic 16 months and... Let's see, seven hours until the polls open to
:02:41. > :02:44.the general election. I point that out in case some how you failed to
:02:45. > :02:52.notice the sound of the starting gun in the mounting political rhetoric
:02:53. > :02:54.of the last 24 hours. The high-visibility Chancellor, for
:02:55. > :03:00.example, unmissable in Birmingham. He began the day with a warning of
:03:01. > :03:03.hard truths and stark figures. ?25 billion of spending cuts, he stated,
:03:04. > :03:08.would be taken in the first two years of the next parliament, nearly
:03:09. > :03:12.half of those cuts will come from one department. Welfare cannot be
:03:13. > :03:18.protected from further substantial cuts. I can tell you today that on
:03:19. > :03:21.the Treasury's current forecasts, ?12 billion of further welfare cuts
:03:22. > :03:26.are needed in the first two years of the next parliament. Yesterday the
:03:27. > :03:30.Conservatives committed to the triple-lock on pensions for the
:03:31. > :03:33.elderly, protecting the way they rise through the next parliament.
:03:34. > :03:39.This means George Osborne's cuts to welfare will have to come from
:03:40. > :03:45.elsewhere. Welfare is by far the largest departmental budget in terms
:03:46. > :03:51.of spending, a massive ?2 O2 billion of all. Of that ?63 billion is the
:03:52. > :03:56.state pension, now protected by the PM. Another ?48 billion goes to
:03:57. > :04:02.pensioners on top of the state pension, those are benefits that
:04:03. > :04:08.haven't been explicitly ring-fenced for the parliament. What is left,
:04:09. > :04:12.?29 tax credit, ?18 billion disability benefits or ?17 billion
:04:13. > :04:17.on housing. If you exclude anything that goes to pensioners you have
:04:18. > :04:20.another ?90 billion that goes to working-age people. There are lots
:04:21. > :04:24.of benefits there, you can take more child benefit away if you want. You
:04:25. > :04:30.reduce any of these things, most of that cut will hit relatively
:04:31. > :04:34.low-income people. What do the Chancellor's coalition partners make
:04:35. > :04:37.of this morning's announcement. Minutes after the speech, the new
:04:38. > :04:43.girl asked the deputy PM. Welcome, it is your first day! REPORTER: It
:04:44. > :04:48.is, and a big announcement, would you be happy then to sign up to ?12
:04:49. > :04:51.billion of welfare cuts? No, we haven't and we won't during this
:04:52. > :04:54.coalition Government. Because what we have said is that tax, for
:04:55. > :04:59.instance, has to play a role, of course it does, and tax on those,
:05:00. > :05:03.and tax, like any fair approach to tax, is asking people, particularly
:05:04. > :05:07.those with the broadest shoulders and greatest wealth to make a small
:05:08. > :05:12.additional contribution. We believe you can finish that job but do it
:05:13. > :05:15.for fairly than the ideolgically driven approach that the
:05:16. > :05:20.Conservatives appeared to set out. Come on Nick, tell us what you
:05:21. > :05:26.really think! I think that is economically and lob sided balanced,
:05:27. > :05:30.a monumental mistake... Extreme in its undertaking... Unbalanced and
:05:31. > :05:34.unfair. This might be part of the differenciation strategy, but it is
:05:35. > :05:37.already sounding turbo-charged, with friends like these, who needs an
:05:38. > :05:41.opposition? Whether or not we need cuts on that scale will depend upon
:05:42. > :05:43.whether we can get the economy growing more strongly, whether we
:05:44. > :05:47.can get young people back to work and whether he will face up to fair
:05:48. > :05:51.decisions, as we have advocated to take away the windswepter allowance
:05:52. > :05:55.from the richest pensioners, at the moment fairness steams to be the
:05:56. > :06:00.issue George Osborne is looking left, right and centre. Today was
:06:01. > :06:03.about hard truth, but maybe not the ones the Chancellor had in mind.
:06:04. > :06:08.Don't think it was just economic, today was pure politics. The
:06:09. > :06:13.Conservatives would like the next election to be 1992 all over again.
:06:14. > :06:18.An election they won in hard times. So the message today was cautious
:06:19. > :06:24.and slightly scary. We're not there yet, he's trying to say, so don't
:06:25. > :06:27.even think about throwing us out. With us now is Sajid Javid the
:06:28. > :06:32.Conservative Financial Secretary to the Treasury, also here the Shadow
:06:33. > :06:39.Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Labour's Chris Leslie. ?12 billion
:06:40. > :06:42.reckoned to be saved from the welfare benefit, which benefits will
:06:43. > :06:46.be cut? We have set out today a strategy to deal with the economy
:06:47. > :06:51.and to make sure it continues to recover. That means continuing to
:06:52. > :06:54.make some very hard decision, that is what the Chancellor set out
:06:55. > :06:57.today. The hard work of the British people is paying off, we are not
:06:58. > :07:01.going to squander those efforts and we are faced with the choice.
:07:02. > :07:05.Britain is faced with a choice. We can go back to the bad old days of
:07:06. > :07:08.more borrowing and more debt, Labour's way, or go forward and
:07:09. > :07:13.continue to have a growing economy which means dealing with the hard
:07:14. > :07:16.truths. Do you remember what my question was, come on? I want to set
:07:17. > :07:20.the context, I will of course come to your question. A very important
:07:21. > :07:24.question. We have spending cuts this year and next year, which includes
:07:25. > :07:27.welfare cuts, and what the Chancellor set out today, beyond the
:07:28. > :07:32.next election, there is a further ?25 billion of cuts, ?12 billion
:07:33. > :07:35.will be welfare cuts. The Chancellor has given suggestions today about
:07:36. > :07:39.what kind of welfare cuts we are thinking of. But we're going to have
:07:40. > :07:44.to deal with the welfare budget, as we have just seen in your piece just
:07:45. > :07:48.now, it is still the second-largest item of Government spending, we are
:07:49. > :07:52.not able to bring the budgets books back into balance. This is a very
:07:53. > :07:57.important question, which benefits do you propose to cut? What we set
:07:58. > :08:01.out today, two benefits specifically, we are going to look
:08:02. > :08:06.at housing benefits for under-25s and people in council houses that
:08:07. > :08:11.earn more than ?26,000 a year. I will come to you in a second Chris
:08:12. > :08:15.Leslie, don't worry. Housing benefit for the under-25s, if you cut that
:08:16. > :08:19.how much money will you save? It won't lead to the whole ?12 billion,
:08:20. > :08:24.that is not our strategy. How much? We set out a process today of the
:08:25. > :08:27.types of cuts we are thinking of. We are not going to write our next
:08:28. > :08:32.election manifesto right now. But what we are going to do. Give us a
:08:33. > :08:36.rough idea? It depends on how you finally set out the policy and we
:08:37. > :08:40.have not set out every detail of that particular policy. It is
:08:41. > :08:47.something we are looking at. I'm not even asking to the nearest million,
:08:48. > :08:51.the nearest billion will do? Of a total ?12 billion that can be an
:08:52. > :08:55.important component of it, I'm not suggesting for a second it adds up
:08:56. > :08:58.to the ?12 billion, nor is the Chancellor suggesting that. What we
:08:59. > :09:02.are saying is these are the kind of tough decisions we need to make. It
:09:03. > :09:06.comes to nowhere near ?12 billion, it is somewhere under ?2 isn't it?
:09:07. > :09:12.Some of the estimates we have heard today from some of the economists is
:09:13. > :09:16.around the ?2 billion. It depends on the final detail. We have begun a
:09:17. > :09:20.very important process, which confronts these hard truths. I
:09:21. > :09:24.wonder if you have thought this through properly, let me show you
:09:25. > :09:29.this piece of tape, a young woman, 22 years old, lives in west London,
:09:30. > :09:33.this is what it would mean to her, this is how she depends on the
:09:34. > :09:37.benefit you propose to cut. Let's hear it? Growing up it felt I had to
:09:38. > :09:42.grow up fast. The disagreements with like my mum and my brothers and
:09:43. > :09:46.sisters is because like I told them that I was gay. I went upstairs to
:09:47. > :09:50.my room, all my stuff was packed up in boxes and I went downstairs and I
:09:51. > :09:53.said to my mum what are you doing. She said I didn't live here. I
:09:54. > :09:58.stayed between friends of friends, you are constantly moving, you don't
:09:59. > :10:06.feel safe, you don't feel stable. I just spoke to the council again and
:10:07. > :10:13.just finally it got through to them and practically I got place in
:10:14. > :10:19.Centrepoint. So it is about ?170 per month just to live here. But housing
:10:20. > :10:24.benefit helps towards actually me having a roof over my head. It is
:10:25. > :10:29.not a lifestyle choice for us. You need it. If you don't have it then
:10:30. > :10:33.you are homeless. Right, so if you cut housing benefit for
:10:34. > :10:39.under-25-year-olds, there is no money to pay for the place in the
:10:40. > :10:44.hostel which a girl like that has. Let me tell you, first of all there
:10:45. > :10:48.are many under-25-year-olds that work, they pay taxes which make the
:10:49. > :10:53.money that helps to pay these benefits. Indeed they are. Many of
:10:54. > :10:58.them live with parents or friends. Where as people under-25 that are
:10:59. > :11:02.not working are currently entitled to housing benefit as you have seen.
:11:03. > :11:05.What we need to do to make sure people like this young lady and many
:11:06. > :11:08.others have a better standard of living is making sure we have a
:11:09. > :11:12.growing economy and the economy continues to grow. We are only going
:11:13. > :11:15.to achieve that if we keep confronting the problems facing our
:11:16. > :11:18.country. We cannot go back to the bad old ways. We have to make tough
:11:19. > :11:22.decisions and if it is not welfare it has to come from somewhere else,
:11:23. > :11:27.those are equally tough decisions. She has just to hope for the
:11:28. > :11:32.benefits of a growing economy. Has she? Let me ask you another specific
:11:33. > :11:34.question, you cut housing benefits for under-25-year-olds, does that
:11:35. > :11:38.include those who have children? We haven't set out the details of this
:11:39. > :11:41.policy, nor were we going to today. What we are showing is we are
:11:42. > :11:45.willing to deal with the hard truths facing our country. We will confront
:11:46. > :11:50.these tough decisions and make sure our economy continues to grow and
:11:51. > :11:54.the recovery is not put at risk. Chris Leslie, how many of these
:11:55. > :12:00.proposed benefit cuts, you will probably be no more specific than Mr
:12:01. > :12:04.Javid has been now. But of the ?12 billion which these guys are going
:12:05. > :12:10.to cut from the welfare budget at the next election, how much would
:12:11. > :12:16.Labour cut? You gave Sajid Javid a moment to put it into context I
:12:17. > :12:19.require that. He has dreamt up this figure for ?25 billion for four
:12:20. > :12:22.years time. A sensible Government would look at the state of the
:12:23. > :12:25.economy and make decisions based on what the economy needs. The
:12:26. > :12:29.Conservatives, George Osborne, we know they are playing politics, they
:12:30. > :12:35.plucked this ?25 billion out of the air as part of a political game to
:12:36. > :12:38.some how create dividing lines. No cuts? No, and we have gone further,
:12:39. > :12:45.to be fair than any other opposition by saying we would not borrow
:12:46. > :12:49.further in 2015/16, the only year they have done this Spending Review
:12:50. > :12:54.for day-to-day spending. But the key thing is this, yes we will have to
:12:55. > :12:57.have cuts, but they have to have fair and support growth in the
:12:58. > :13:01.economy. That will be the dividing line between the parties. Specific
:13:02. > :13:03.example of the young woman we saw there, you would not cut the
:13:04. > :13:08.benefits of someone like that? It is a very good question. I'm asking
:13:09. > :13:11.you? Housing benefit under-25s, what about people leaving care, you
:13:12. > :13:16.mentioned the case in point. What would you do about it? I think what
:13:17. > :13:20.we need to do is for the housing benefit bill, it has gone up
:13:21. > :13:24.considerably under welfare costs that have risen because people's
:13:25. > :13:27.earnings have fallen. There is a lot of people in work who get housing
:13:28. > :13:31.benefit and that bill has gone up. If we dealt with the cost of living
:13:32. > :13:34.crisis we could reduce the housing benefit. Can you make a promise to
:13:35. > :13:37.that woman and others in her position that you would not make
:13:38. > :13:41.these cuts? I don't think it would be fair to hit her even further than
:13:42. > :13:44.she has already been suffering because of the cost of living
:13:45. > :13:47.crisis. You can make her a promise? It is the difference in political
:13:48. > :13:50.value, I happen to think in society you have to stand up for those?
:13:51. > :13:55.Vulnerable. You are making a pledge? We wouldn't do the bedroom tax, you
:13:56. > :13:59.look at the list. We're not talking about the bedroom tax? These are the
:14:00. > :14:04.examples of fairness versus unfairness, we wouldn't give a tax
:14:05. > :14:10.cut to the richest ?150,000 earners, which Sajid Javid decided to do in
:14:11. > :14:15.shape, cutting it from 50p to 45p at a time when people can't get food on
:14:16. > :14:19.the table, the foodbank queue, think about people struggling to heat
:14:20. > :14:22.homes. You have a very unfair society, made more unfair because of
:14:23. > :14:25.your uncaring approach to managing the economy and the cost of living
:14:26. > :14:31.crisis which is getting worse not better. What What we have heard from
:14:32. > :14:35.Chris is exactly whey said, an inability to confront the hard
:14:36. > :14:39.truths facing our country. More spending, more borrowing and more
:14:40. > :14:43.debt. That is the only policy he has. You have neglected growth. You
:14:44. > :14:47.were asked about housing benefit, the only policy that your party
:14:48. > :14:51.currently has on housing benefit that you have committed to and
:14:52. > :14:55.include in the next manifesto is increase it to make sure people have
:14:56. > :14:58.more rooms than they need in their home. That is the only policy they
:14:59. > :15:01.have. Do you understand the point I was making when their earnings fall,
:15:02. > :15:10.of course the housing benefit rise, the cost of living has an effect on
:15:11. > :15:13.the Welfare Bill. I want to turn to the panel, there was a moment when
:15:14. > :15:21.we saw something acutely political going on, what did you think it was
:15:22. > :15:25.Chris is right it is a dividing line speech which you can like or not. It
:15:26. > :15:32.is a dividing line speech on the deficit, trying to move the agenda
:15:33. > :15:36.back from the cogs -- cost of living issues raised before Christmas to
:15:37. > :15:40.the agenda on the deficit, which is the big one. It will face all the
:15:41. > :15:43.parties with difficult decisions. Ultimately it will face Labour with
:15:44. > :15:47.difficult decisions about what to cut, because there are billions of
:15:48. > :15:52.pounds that can't be covered by tax rises unless you are assuming
:15:53. > :15:55.massive tax rises. Obviously it will mean the Conservative Party goes
:15:56. > :16:01.into the election with a difficult message as well. Your adoring fans
:16:02. > :16:07.of course know who you are, I forgot to introduce you all, Lord Fink,
:16:08. > :16:12.John McTiernan, former Labour big wig, and Linda Jack from the Liberal
:16:13. > :16:20.Democrats. When you see this marking out of terrain, how will it play, do
:16:21. > :16:24.you think? I think what you have seen today was George Osborne going
:16:25. > :16:29.too far. He is a politician who is too clever by half. He could just
:16:30. > :16:32.have stuck the figure of ?25 billion out there and said to Labour what
:16:33. > :16:35.are you going to do and watched Labour struggle with the question
:16:36. > :16:41.you asked Chris, Chris has been asked to give a Labour manifesto
:16:42. > :16:45.today, when we're 16 months away from an election, it would have been
:16:46. > :16:48.a good ploy. To say ?12 billion to come out of the welfare budget, and
:16:49. > :16:51.no answer to the question which areas do you mean. I tell you what
:16:52. > :16:56.areas he means, that budget is benefits to children, child benefit
:16:57. > :17:02.and tax credit for children, it is benefits for disabled people, or it
:17:03. > :17:06.is housing benefit. ?12 billion ?1,000 a year. Most of it goes to
:17:07. > :17:10.old people? They have excluded that, they have said there is ?110 billion
:17:11. > :17:15.you can't touch. You have a small amount of money. I do not believe
:17:16. > :17:18.that George Osborne is going to go into an election actually with the
:17:19. > :17:23.kind of cuts that you would have to have to make ?12 billion from
:17:24. > :17:27.welfare. Unelectable, that is what a party would be, unelectable if they
:17:28. > :17:30.took the money from disabled people. Isn't the purpose of setting out the
:17:31. > :17:33.figure looked at stragically that Labour will also have to answer the
:17:34. > :17:39.question of how it is going to respond to that sort of figure. That
:17:40. > :17:43.is just taking the budget books from the OBR and reading out what the
:17:44. > :17:46.figure is. Labour will also have to have some response to that? The
:17:47. > :17:50.thing that intrigues me about the current situation is, you have a
:17:51. > :17:54.coalition Government which gives the Government of the day a large
:17:55. > :17:57.working majority in parliament, yet whenever a hard question comes up
:17:58. > :18:02.they say what will would Labour do, I tell you the answer, let Labour
:18:03. > :18:06.form a minority Government, you can't say I'm the Government. On the
:18:07. > :18:11.question of the coalition Government isn't it very bizarre indeed when
:18:12. > :18:13.the Deputy Prime Minister says the Chancellor of the Exchequer is
:18:14. > :18:19.talking rubbish? To be honest it is a long time I have said I agree with
:18:20. > :18:23.Nick but today I do. He has at last got back to what our core values are
:18:24. > :18:27.as Liberal Democrats when we say no-one should be enslaved by
:18:28. > :18:32.poverty, ignorance or conformity. The clip you just played, I would
:18:33. > :18:36.have expected a difference response from you. That young woman to live
:18:37. > :18:39.in those conditions, I have an 18-year-old foster daughter you are
:18:40. > :18:42.going to take her housing benefit away from you. You are hitting the
:18:43. > :18:47.most vulnerable when they are most vulnerable and you are doing no cost
:18:48. > :18:53.analysis, I never see any cost benefit analysis of what you
:18:54. > :18:55.propose. Ultimately, this is what the election will be about, clearly
:18:56. > :18:59.you are correct both of you that the Conservative Party has to be very
:19:00. > :19:03.careful as an answer about fairness, it does have to answer what the
:19:04. > :19:06.point of doing it is otherwise all people will see is cuts. That is a
:19:07. > :19:09.big electoral challenge for the Conservative Party. For the Liberal
:19:10. > :19:13.Democrats and Labour the figure remains ?25 billion, it has to be
:19:14. > :19:17.filled. Why does it remain. Where did that figure come from? Unless
:19:18. > :19:20.you decide to put up a lot of taxes? Unless the Liberal Democrats will go
:19:21. > :19:25.into the election saying that the deficit totals they have agreed to
:19:26. > :19:29.they don't agree any more. There was a report last week from the BMJ
:19:30. > :19:34.about the cost of malnutrition, children going into hospital with
:19:35. > :19:37.malnutrition, if you look at the cost benefit. That is what I'm
:19:38. > :19:41.saying, you can't look at the cuts without the consequences. If you
:19:42. > :19:46.start to look at how you make cuts sensible. The Liberal Democrats
:19:47. > :19:53.agreed to deficit totals and now the Government. Sorry Nick Clegg and
:19:54. > :19:58.Danny Alexander agreed! The Liberal Democrats have signed up. We are a
:19:59. > :20:01.democratic party, wait until our conference makes a decision on our
:20:02. > :20:04.manifesto. You are not speaking for the Liberal Democrats then. They are
:20:05. > :20:09.not either, because we don't have a decision come through the
:20:10. > :20:13.conference. We are democratic as a party. I think it would be hard for
:20:14. > :20:17.the Liberal Democrats, we now have a disagreement on this, it would be
:20:18. > :20:22.hard for them to walk away from the figures they agreed to. Those
:20:23. > :20:25.figures imply ?25 billion, perhaps the Labour Party will have slightly
:20:26. > :20:29.easier deficit terms, Chris says we don't know the exact figure, we know
:20:30. > :20:32.it will be many billions of pounds. The question will be for all the
:20:33. > :20:36.parties, I agree. The Conservative Party will have to have a response.
:20:37. > :20:39.How are they going to fill that? I would love it if it was not a
:20:40. > :20:43.difficulty for anyone that is not realistic. The problem you have got,
:20:44. > :20:46.and you have articulated it well, the problem is ordinary people
:20:47. > :20:54.seeing this see a Government that says they will take ?12 billion out
:20:55. > :21:01.of a specific set of benefits, but as has a minister that can't name a
:21:02. > :21:05.single benefit he will reduce. If we are having hard decisions let's have
:21:06. > :21:11.hard information. There is something else, I thought you chaps weren't
:21:12. > :21:13.going to take part in this conversation. There is something
:21:14. > :21:16.else, if George Osborne is right and the economy is starting to get
:21:17. > :21:21.better people are going to start feel and see the changes, the
:21:22. > :21:26.benefits perhaps. In those circumstances can you continue to
:21:27. > :21:30.talk as effectively about the need for cuts? Clearly obviously if the
:21:31. > :21:35.Conservative Party is going to run a "Britain's on the right track don't
:21:36. > :21:38.turn back election", you don't want to be at the point where people
:21:39. > :21:41.think you have reached the end of the track, you have to be saying
:21:42. > :21:44.there is a lot of work to do, that was what he was doing. I think the
:21:45. > :21:47.Conservative Party will have to effectively explain to home how
:21:48. > :21:53.deficit reduction will improve their living standards. That is a hard
:21:54. > :21:56.argument. They will have to link the argument about living standards to
:21:57. > :22:00.deficit. You are not persuading him sitting next to you? I think you
:22:01. > :22:05.have currently got the National Health Service going through its
:22:06. > :22:08.tightest spending constraints in the history of the National Health
:22:09. > :22:14.Service, the tightest spending restraints on any health service
:22:15. > :22:17.anywhere in the world over four or five years and you are going to then
:22:18. > :22:21.do it again for the next five years. It is unbelievable. It is
:22:22. > :22:24.unbelievable, most people with a brain can see something is going to
:22:25. > :22:30.give. You can't take the money from the kids, you can't take the money
:22:31. > :22:34.from the pensioners and people from disabilities. Even broadly, very,
:22:35. > :22:38.very vaguely outline it, I honestly don't understand it. I will have to
:22:39. > :22:44.stop you all there if I may. Thank you. Coming up:
:22:45. > :22:54.I don't want to survive. I want to live. The Prime Minister of Iraq was
:22:55. > :23:00.begging the people of Fallujah today to drive out the fors that have
:23:01. > :23:05.captured the town. Well he might, the cost of a town of so many
:23:06. > :23:08.American lives and lose it to an Al-Qaeda affiliate risks asking the
:23:09. > :23:16.question of what the whole war was for. Late 2004, ferocious urban
:23:17. > :23:21.warfare on the streets of Fallujah, plane troops trying to flush --
:23:22. > :23:27.American troops trying to flush out Al-Qaeda troops hiding inside. Ten
:23:28. > :23:31.years on and Fallujah once more out of control, Islamic militants taking
:23:32. > :23:37.over Government buildings, defying Baghdad. Has Al-Qaeda returned to
:23:38. > :23:42.its old stomping ground. Has the war in Syria some how fanned the flames
:23:43. > :23:46.of Iraq's burning sectarian embers. It is certainly the way the
:23:47. > :23:51.Government in Baghdad would like to see it. One of the main arguments to
:23:52. > :23:58.use is these areas have become, they use the word "infested" by elements
:23:59. > :24:03.from Al-Qaeda groups and fighters who are foreigner, even from outside
:24:04. > :24:09.Iraq. They want to clean them, clear that area from these fighters.
:24:10. > :24:13.Fallujah and Ramadi sit on Baghdad's western doorstep, behind them the
:24:14. > :24:22.vast empty province of Anbar stretching to the Syrian border,
:24:23. > :24:30.where another war is now almost three Years' old. Sunni militants
:24:31. > :24:33.battling against insurgents. Both countries having proclaimed
:24:34. > :24:38.allegance to Al-Qaeda. The Islamic state of Iraq and Syria, whose very
:24:39. > :24:41.name suggests a common purpose. It is tempting, perhaps, to see the two
:24:42. > :24:46.countries as two fronts in a bigger war. Tempting but probably
:24:47. > :24:51.misleading too. We see that Al-Qaeda and radical Jihadists are exploiting
:24:52. > :24:58.one popular alienation, both in Syria and Iraq to the absence of
:24:59. > :25:01.Government. And then three, an increased heightened sectarianism
:25:02. > :25:06.across the whole region. There may well be one organisation exploiting
:25:07. > :25:10.two distinct battlefields and finding similarities in each. But
:25:11. > :25:13.they are, at the moment, two separate conflicts, one driven by
:25:14. > :25:16.the incompetence and repression of the Government in Damascus, the
:25:17. > :25:20.other driven by the incompetence and repression of the Government in
:25:21. > :25:26.Baghdad. It could have been different, three years ago Iraq's
:25:27. > :25:31.Sunni minority deified Al-Qaeda and voted in parliamentary elections.
:25:32. > :25:34.Political participation, they hoped, might improve their lot, in a
:25:35. > :25:38.country now dominated by Shia politicians. But it didn't happen.
:25:39. > :25:44.Two years later amid mounting grievances there were protests on
:25:45. > :25:50.the streets of Ramadi Anbar's capital. Eventually broken up in a
:25:51. > :25:53.heavihanded Government operation. A crisis some say of the Prime
:25:54. > :25:57.Minister's own making. This is almost the ideal scenario for
:25:58. > :26:00.Al-Qaeda, recruiting small numbers of people but not being whole
:26:01. > :26:08.heartedly rejected by a wider population that voted in 2010, had
:26:09. > :26:11.that investment in the ballot box squadered by an Iraqi Government now
:26:12. > :26:19.running the election campaign for April 2014 on a very sectarian
:26:20. > :26:26.basis. And against a backdrop of extreme violence. This was the scene
:26:27. > :26:29.in Diala province three days ago, another massive car bomb, almost
:26:30. > :26:37.9,000 people were killed in Iraq last year, the deadliest since 2008.
:26:38. > :26:41.The Prime Minister, urging the people of Fallujah to expel the
:26:42. > :26:46.terrorists. But not everyone here is Al-Qaeda. There are plenty of local
:26:47. > :26:51.tribesmen equally willing to take on the Government. It is a messy three
:26:52. > :26:58.or four-way fight. With overwhelming fire power, the army will probably
:26:59. > :27:03.win, but at what cost? Here we are, 2014, the centinary of the outbreak
:27:04. > :27:08.of the First World War, all sorts of commemorative events are planned,
:27:09. > :27:11.amid much controversy about what is the appropriate tone to mark a
:27:12. > :27:16.catastrophe that took vast numbers of lives and turned out not to be a
:27:17. > :27:20.war to end wars. The Education Secretary, a man who can't see a
:27:21. > :27:26.sacred cow without ordering up the truck from the nearest abattoir
:27:27. > :27:30.added his tuppence in, inevitably the Daily Mail. He argued that apart
:27:31. > :27:35.from a pointless slaughter it had been a just war. This great
:27:36. > :27:39.blood-letting cost millions of lives, reshaped the societies of
:27:40. > :27:43.Europe, promoted revolution, enfranchised those previously denied
:27:44. > :27:48.the vote, and tragically sowed the seeds of future war. According to
:27:49. > :27:52.the Education Secretary, our understanding of the war is filtered
:27:53. > :28:01.through a series of predominantly left-wing prejudices about loins led
:28:02. > :28:07.by donkeys. Field Marshall Hague has formulated a tactical plan to ensure
:28:08. > :28:10.final victory in the feel. Would this brilliant plan involve us
:28:11. > :28:16.climbing out of our trenches and walking very slowly towards the
:28:17. > :28:20.enemy. How could you How could you know that it is classified. It is
:28:21. > :28:25.the same plan we used last time and 17-times before that. Michael Gove
:28:26. > :28:32.says this portrayal presents the war as a misbegotten shambles, a series
:28:33. > :28:38.of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite. He claims
:28:39. > :28:45.World War I was plainly a just war. In which the Germans' pitiless
:28:46. > :28:51.approach and expansionist war aims justified Britain's involvement.
:28:52. > :28:54.Enter Tristram Hunt and Labour's schools' spokesman, he claimed the
:28:55. > :29:00.Government is using what should be a moment for national reflection and
:29:01. > :29:06.respectful debate to rewrite the historical record and sow political
:29:07. > :29:10.division. History, Churchill is supposed to have said, is written by
:29:11. > :29:18.the victors, the outcome of the war may not be in doubt, but what it
:29:19. > :29:23.meant still is. With us now is Professor Richard Evans from
:29:24. > :29:29.Cambridge University, a man singled out by Michael Gove for particular
:29:30. > :29:35.reproach. And in Toronto TWEF Margaret Macmillan, author of The
:29:36. > :29:42.War That Ended Peace. Do you think that Michael Gove is right to say we
:29:43. > :29:48.see the war through a particular set of preconceptions, "loins led by
:29:49. > :29:53.donkeys" and the like? I don't, I think he has said this a lot and a
:29:54. > :29:56.lot of people have argued it. Quite frankly there are many ways of
:29:57. > :30:00.seeing the war. One of the things we should be doing a hundred years
:30:01. > :30:05.later is looking in the round, not arguing about one particular view of
:30:06. > :30:10.the war. It wasn't entirely a war led by donkeys, the generals were
:30:11. > :30:13.trying hard to deal with new technology and strong edge to
:30:14. > :30:18.defensive war. They learned as the war game on, but they debt -- war
:30:19. > :30:24.went on but didn't have the technology to make successful
:30:25. > :30:35.attacks. We need more nuance and we need 100 years later to talk without
:30:36. > :30:41.these polemics. Do you think the nuance and lack sophisticated
:30:42. > :30:45.arguments you are talking about has been lost? It has been lost, we have
:30:46. > :30:49.tended to argue about the First World War in a very nationalistic
:30:50. > :30:54.way. I think surely 100 years later we should be looking at something
:30:55. > :31:00.that was a catastrophe that hit the whole of Europe, hit the world as
:31:01. > :31:04.well and hit, you know, it wasn't just a European war. I speak as a
:31:05. > :31:08.Canadian. This is something that we feel quite strongly about. I do
:31:09. > :31:12.think it is a time to be able to pull back. Instead of arguing about
:31:13. > :31:15.which nation was right and which was wrong and who was responsible, I
:31:16. > :31:19.really would like to see more discussion of what that war meant.
:31:20. > :31:22.What did it mean for European society, how did it happen, why did
:31:23. > :31:26.Europe fight it in that particular way. It seems to me there are all
:31:27. > :31:29.sorts of interesting questions, and there is nothing wrong with debating
:31:30. > :31:33.interpretations. This is what we should be doing, but what I really
:31:34. > :31:38.don't like is the idea we should only be looking at the war in one
:31:39. > :31:42.way. That there is only one correct interpretation of the war. The
:31:43. > :31:50.Education Secretary singled you out by name as one of the perpetrators
:31:51. > :31:55.of the left-wing or orthodoxy about the war, how did you feel about
:31:56. > :31:57.that? It is always like to have enemies like Michael Gove because
:31:58. > :32:04.he's usually wrong about historical matters. The point I would like to
:32:05. > :32:09.make is there is nothing left-wing about saying lions led by donkeys,
:32:10. > :32:16.the phrase about the troops in the First World War, that phrase was
:32:17. > :32:20.created by Alan Clarke, a Tory MP, a maverick right-winger. You accept it
:32:21. > :32:25.is not the total picture No it is not. It is not even the total
:32:26. > :32:29.picture of military leadership? No it isn't. Margaret is right in
:32:30. > :32:34.saying they simply could not cope with the new technology. Barbedwire,
:32:35. > :32:38.and the machine gun, turned the tables on attack, which had been
:32:39. > :32:43.favoured in 19th century wars and put it all on the side of defence.
:32:44. > :32:48.It wasn't until the 1918 when the tank was developed that was reversed
:32:49. > :32:54.and the allied armies could advance. What about the point that Michael
:32:55. > :32:57.Gove makes that this was a "just war", that is the phrase he uses?
:32:58. > :33:06.You can't really say that until 1918. Britain's principal ally was
:33:07. > :33:10.Tsar of Russia, despotism that put Germany into the shade, it is not
:33:11. > :33:13.until Russia withdraws from the war and the Americans come in everything
:33:14. > :33:18.changes. It seems to me legitimate enough to argue that Britain and
:33:19. > :33:23.France were fighting for democracy and liberal values. What is your
:33:24. > :33:26.view about this idea of the "just war" Margaret Macmillan? Well,
:33:27. > :33:33.people always feel that what they are doing is just. But I'm rather
:33:34. > :33:36.reluctant to accept the view that the war was about promoting a
:33:37. > :33:41.liberal international order. Most people who fought on all sides felt
:33:42. > :33:44.they were fighting to defend their homelands, their families and
:33:45. > :33:47.friends. I'm not sure they were fighting for a great vision, that
:33:48. > :33:52.came later. The politicians provided the visions. But I do think we need
:33:53. > :33:54.to remember that people at the time felt they were fighting for
:33:55. > :33:58.something. We don't have to agree with them. But we're not also I
:33:59. > :34:01.think in the position of sitting there saying you are completely
:34:02. > :34:05.wrong. We are not marking their cards, are we. We shouldn't be
:34:06. > :34:09.saying you got it right, you got it wrong, at this stage we should be
:34:10. > :34:14.trying to understand how the war happened, and how this very
:34:15. > :34:20.prosperous continent created this awful mess. The intervention by the
:34:21. > :34:24.Education Secretary is of a piece with interventions by other
:34:25. > :34:28.politicians who looking to this complicated question which is
:34:29. > :34:32.precisely how do we commemorate this event? Is it helpful do you think to
:34:33. > :34:38.have politicians wading in like this? Well it is not always helpful,
:34:39. > :34:41.is it? I think the politicians will have very strong views of what they
:34:42. > :34:44.want to do. I think it is something that belongs to all of us. I think
:34:45. > :34:48.the politicians are entitled to their views, but I think we also, as
:34:49. > :34:53.the public, should have our views. I'm not saying historians are the
:34:54. > :34:56.only people who should describe the war either. It is something we
:34:57. > :35:00.should be all talking about. What is your feeling about these political
:35:01. > :35:04.interventions? I think they are unhelpful. We don't want politicians
:35:05. > :35:07.to tell us what we should be feeling about the war or how we should
:35:08. > :35:12.commemorate it. I actually think the Government has got it more or less
:35:13. > :35:17.right in giving the freedom, funding, to people locally, to
:35:18. > :35:23.institutions, to all kinds of groups to commemorate the war in the way
:35:24. > :35:26.they want to. If you look at the Welsh Government for example it is,
:35:27. > :35:30.it has plan to commemorate the war, it includes honouring not only the
:35:31. > :35:39.troops who fought so bravely but also the conscientious objectors. It
:35:40. > :35:42.has schools' visits to Germany, the royal Fusiliers museum is having a
:35:43. > :35:46.collaboration with German institutions to commemorate the
:35:47. > :35:49.Christmas truce. It should be an educational experience. We need to
:35:50. > :35:53.teach people about the reasons why war happens, to try to avoid it
:35:54. > :35:58.happening again. Thank you both very much indeed. Ever since that
:35:59. > :36:03.unfortunate Romanian young man took a new year flight from Transylvenia,
:36:04. > :36:07.only to be met on his arrival by, horror of horrors, Keith Vaz, there
:36:08. > :36:15.has been intense speculation about whether the prove sighed tsunami of
:36:16. > :36:23.benefit scroungers and migrants was a figment Nigel Farage's
:36:24. > :36:28.imagination. There are some people coming and tonight we meet some of
:36:29. > :36:39.them in their Transylvanian home town of Cluj Napoca. I want to go to
:36:40. > :36:50.the UK because I want to find a better job. The change in the
:36:51. > :36:57.regulations regarding work permits will make a fewing -- huge
:36:58. > :37:03.difference. It is easier to find a job than here. You can do just more
:37:04. > :37:08.than wait tables in a restaurant. You can finally do something related
:37:09. > :37:15.to your study, you can make a contribution to the English society.
:37:16. > :37:21.I'm working five years in hotel reception. I'm really pleased with
:37:22. > :37:28.my work, I like my work. I like to work with people every day. But I'm
:37:29. > :37:34.not so satisfied by the material part. I think that we are not
:37:35. > :37:42.appreciated financially as well as we should be. Over the next few
:37:43. > :37:49.weeks I plan to do a very thorough research to analyse the market, the
:37:50. > :37:55.job market in the UK and I will have a look at what's going on with
:37:56. > :38:01.journalism and communications and PR and I'm looking phwoar internships
:38:02. > :38:07.at various institutions and corporations. I will also be
:38:08. > :38:17.contacting people I know in the UK hoping to land a job. We're going to
:38:18. > :38:26.the employment agency. There we will find a big database about the jobs
:38:27. > :38:32.across Europe. I want to go to the UK because here in Romania
:38:33. > :38:38.everything goes on family relationships. The manager is the
:38:39. > :38:52.father the director is the son. If you don't have a kind of family like
:38:53. > :38:58.that you can't find a job. I have read a lot of articles recently in
:38:59. > :39:06.the English newspapers, in the tabloids especially about this fear
:39:07. > :39:11.in dealing with an exodus of Romanians. They are concerned about
:39:12. > :39:17.flooding the job market, and I think most of these facts are quite
:39:18. > :39:20.overblown. Me and my friends share a common view on what is happening
:39:21. > :39:25.with migration, we all think that most of the Romanians will come back
:39:26. > :39:31.and just go there to get some skills and then they are probably going to
:39:32. > :39:35.head back. I think there is no need to worry about that part of the
:39:36. > :39:40.population that will go there to exploit the welfare, because that's
:39:41. > :39:48.like 10% of the population, maybe even less than that. The other
:39:49. > :39:56.percentage is very well equipped and very well skilled. I'm certain some
:39:57. > :40:00.people will go, for benefits, because there are people who like to
:40:01. > :40:04.take advantage everywhere. But this is not what the main population who
:40:05. > :40:09.emigrate will go specifically for that. Some will, some will go to get
:40:10. > :40:15.a good job, to get their studies finished or advanced or they will
:40:16. > :40:20.return or find a job there. I have my own concerns about travelling to
:40:21. > :40:25.the UK, of course, I know jobs, especially the high end jobs are
:40:26. > :40:28.very competitive and there is also the bias that you have to take into
:40:29. > :40:36.account because you are going to be competing with you know people froms
:40:37. > :40:50.native population. You have to be perfect, you have to be outstanding.
:40:51. > :41:02.I never have been there. I don't know what I will find, but I hope
:41:03. > :41:06.that I will like it. And we will be returning to those Romanian job
:41:07. > :41:10.seekers to find out how they fare after they arrive in the UK in the
:41:11. > :41:14.weeks ahead. One of the most hot low-anticipated films of the last
:41:15. > :41:18.many months opens this week. Twelve Years A Slave is widely tipped for
:41:19. > :41:21.Oscar glory and has been called the finest film to have been made about
:41:22. > :41:32.slavery in the states. It is all the more powerful for being based on a
:41:33. > :41:40.true story. The director, skean Steve McQueen is an artist who has
:41:41. > :41:46.just won the Turner Prize. Steve McQueen is a film director whose
:41:47. > :41:50.tract record dictates he will never compromise his vision. His new
:41:51. > :41:55.movie, Twelve Years A Slave, is based very firmly on the true story
:41:56. > :41:59.of Solomon Northup, a free man, kidnapped and sold into slavery. It
:42:00. > :42:04.is a story of how he kept his humanity in the face of the most
:42:05. > :42:12.unspeakable relentless cruelty. I don't want to survive, I want to
:42:13. > :42:16.live. My wife is a historian and said why not look into firsthand
:42:17. > :42:21.accounts of slavery. We did, she found this book called Twelve Years
:42:22. > :42:26.A Slave. It was amazing, every single page was a revelation. I
:42:27. > :42:31.closed the book and I was very angry with myself. I was angry with myself
:42:32. > :42:37.because I thought how did I not know this book. I realised nobody I knew,
:42:38. > :42:43.knew the book, I knew I had to make it into a movie. I got this from
:42:44. > :42:51.mistress Shaw, she won't grant me no soap to clean with. I stink so much
:42:52. > :42:55.I make myself gag. The film was a fantastic combination of intense
:42:56. > :43:00.moments, there is intense cruelty but also intense beauty in it as
:43:01. > :43:04.well? When people for example say to me how can you shoot something so
:43:05. > :43:09.horrific but beautiful. Because that's life. If you go to Louisiana,
:43:10. > :43:19.it is one of the most beautiful places you have been so. Shaun was
:43:20. > :43:24.on camera and wanted a dark Len, I can't put my filter on to life, life
:43:25. > :43:31.is perverse. Under the circumstances he is a slave owner, you lucksate in
:43:32. > :43:36.his favour. I survive, I will not fall into despair. It was tragic,
:43:37. > :43:41.Chiwetel Ejiofor was the job, he had a stature and presence to him, there
:43:42. > :43:47.is a nobility, and humanity, which is most important, less nobility
:43:48. > :43:52.more humanity. Within the environment of a situation which was
:43:53. > :43:58.unhumane, he had to hold on to that. My back is thick with scars for
:43:59. > :44:01.protesting my freedom. I was reading one of the articles of black writers
:44:02. > :44:05.saying he's not going to watch this film because race films are made for
:44:06. > :44:10.liberal white film-goers because they will end up feeling guilty and
:44:11. > :44:19.that is the purpose of them? I don't make films for white people! I just
:44:20. > :44:24.don't! It is like saying you know I don't need anyone to verify my
:44:25. > :44:30.existence, I make films or I make art because I'm alive and I'm an
:44:31. > :44:34.artist and I want to make things, I'm an entertainer, absolutely no
:44:35. > :44:40.two ways about it, you can't escape that. My film is about us, rather
:44:41. > :44:44.than specific groups of people. You know it is just the American tale
:44:45. > :44:50.but it is a global tale absolutely. You are no better than prized
:44:51. > :44:54.livestock. Chiwetel Ejiofor has to do so much without words, playing
:44:55. > :44:59.that character, particularly when he has to whip Patsy, how do you
:45:00. > :45:04.separate the acting from the natural distress of doing something like
:45:05. > :45:08.that? You don't. You cannot. But that's part of actually getting to
:45:09. > :45:17.some kind of truth within filming. The fact that we shot it in one take
:45:18. > :45:21.shows the tension there, that is why you get that performance, you ramp
:45:22. > :45:26.it up and we have to do it now. You talk to the actor already previously
:45:27. > :45:31.and in rehearsals, it is like a 100m sprint, you train four years to run
:45:32. > :45:37.for ten seconds, that is what it is about. You have to do it now. Steve
:45:38. > :45:43.McQueen doesn't shy away from tough subjects, Hunger, his first feature
:45:44. > :45:48.dealt with Bobby Sands, the Provisional IRA prisoner who died on
:45:49. > :45:58.the 5th of May in 1991 after 66 days on hunger strike. For me what was
:45:59. > :46:02.important about the film it was something swept under the carpet. At
:46:03. > :46:05.that time and even now it is the most important political event to
:46:06. > :46:09.happen in Britain at that time for 27 years. Ten men died through
:46:10. > :46:13.starvation in British prison cells. When the film came out a dialogue a
:46:14. > :46:17.conversation occurred about the troubles. So the movie at that point
:46:18. > :46:20.for me wasn't important, what was important was the dialogue. Certain
:46:21. > :46:24.things were said, people admitted to certain things that were never
:46:25. > :46:29.admitted to. The British establishment admitted to atrocities
:46:30. > :46:32.that occurred in H-blocks, that was the first time that has before
:46:33. > :46:39.happened, a dialogue occurred. That is the power of art in a way that it
:46:40. > :46:43.can actually, the simple thing it can do is just talk about what is
:46:44. > :46:47.going on now, where we are at and hopefully where we can possibly go
:46:48. > :46:51.in the future. Steve McQueen is already being garlanded for Twelve
:46:52. > :46:59.Years A Slave, but if he wins the Oscar, he will be the first black
:47:00. > :47:02.director to take the statue. If you win the Oscar is the pressure on you
:47:03. > :47:06.to take the Hollywood money or do you want to maintain their
:47:07. > :47:09.independence? I'm not a Hollywood money, if I was interested in money,
:47:10. > :47:13.you know if I was interested in money I would be somewhere else I
:47:14. > :47:16.wouldn't be here. That doesn't interest me. All I wanted to do, I
:47:17. > :47:19.wanted two things out of my life as far as money was concerned, I wanted
:47:20. > :47:29.to have shelter and I wanted to be able to buy any book I wanted, that
:47:30. > :47:34.was t I have those, that's enough. There is very definitely a Team
:47:35. > :47:39.Queenzieburn, Michael Fassbender has starred in each of his three films,
:47:40. > :47:46.he works with the same director of photography Shaun Bobbit every time?
:47:47. > :47:53.It is my band, we come together and make an album. Michael is Jagger,
:47:54. > :47:58.Shaun is the drummer, and you know, Charley Watts! You're Keith
:47:59. > :48:04.Richards? I have to be. Everyone wants to be Keith, I'm sorry, I'm
:48:05. > :48:08.Keith, yeah. That's it for tonight. Just before we go, a couple of
:48:09. > :48:13.tomorrow morning's front pages at least. The Times has news that many
:48:14. > :48:17.Tories are very fed up with George Osborne over the ?12 billion planned
:48:18. > :48:22.in welfare cuts. And the Guardian has the same story on its front
:48:23. > :48:28.page, the outrage of people being allies of Iain Duncan Smith, it also
:48:29. > :48:31.has a picture of Simon Hoggart, the parliamentary sketch writer whose
:48:32. > :48:36.death was announced today. Much more tomorrow, until then, good night.