:00:09. > :00:13.On Newsnight tonight, we examine the central proposition of this
:00:14. > :00:17.Government, not just that they there must be cuts to public spending
:00:18. > :00:23.because we can't afford it, but because a smaller state is in itself
:00:24. > :00:26.a good thing. But while spending cuts may be
:00:27. > :00:31.leading the Westminster agenda, is the threat real or phoney?
:00:32. > :00:35.All this talk of rolling back the state, but what would you actually
:00:36. > :00:41.get rid of? Police, security, Fire Services? Child protection? The NHS
:00:42. > :00:46.or the at the timeric becomes much harder in practice.
:00:47. > :01:02.We will see if Ninkovich dares to say upon whom the axe should fall.
:01:03. > :01:05.And ecomes much harder in practice. We will see if Ninkovich dares to
:01:06. > :01:07.say upon whom the axe should fall. And this... Is this the test way to
:01:08. > :01:19.stop people eating too much. We talk to the normer NHS
:01:20. > :01:35.psychiatric Payton Paitent who said she was raped 50 times by staff. It
:01:36. > :01:39.is playing field for predators. A fortnight into the new year and it
:01:40. > :01:45.can be summarised in one word "cuts". One Labour MP thought he was
:01:46. > :01:49.being funny today calling the Chancellor Baron Hardup. What was
:01:50. > :01:53.originally an attempt to get a bankrupt country back on a sound
:01:54. > :01:56.footing, has now taken on a different aspect. Cutting public
:01:57. > :02:06.spending is said to be a good thing in itself. Part a of a programme to
:02:07. > :02:09.reduce the size of the state. Not an adjustment in engineering but an
:02:10. > :02:15.adjustment of what the state is for. This is a huge change in the way we
:02:16. > :02:21.live. The state ought to confine itself to what regards the state,
:02:22. > :02:25.wrote the father of modern Conservatism, Edmund Burke some 200
:02:26. > :02:29.years ago. In a word to everything that is truly and properly public,
:02:30. > :02:33.to the public peace, public safety, public order, public prosperity.
:02:34. > :02:38.Well, we have come a long way since then. Nowadays the state doesn't
:02:39. > :02:43.just control the health service and taxation, it puts CCTV cameras on
:02:44. > :02:46.our streets, smoking bans in pub, it enforces the wearing of a seatbelt,
:02:47. > :02:51.it advises on the right foods to eat. It even sends us to parenting
:02:52. > :02:55.classes. The real thing is, do you feel protected or smothered by that?
:02:56. > :02:59.Time to roll back the state, announced the Chancellor last week,
:03:00. > :03:02.it may fit the Tory ideology, but this argument was just about cash.
:03:03. > :03:06.Britain should never return to the levels of spending of the last
:03:07. > :03:10.Government. Government is going to have to be permanently smaller and
:03:11. > :03:16.so too is our welfare system. But his claims have been labelled a or
:03:17. > :03:21.the of radicalism by some, words, few actions. The reality is that
:03:22. > :03:24.since he has been Chancellor public spending has gone down a minuscule
:03:25. > :03:28.amount as a sharer of our total national wealth. So I'm afraid the
:03:29. > :03:33.rhetoric is very encouraging, but to make it happen we are going to need
:03:34. > :03:35.a lot more than just talk. Over the last 50 years Government spending
:03:36. > :03:39.has been turned on and off, sometimes as a result of ideology,
:03:40. > :03:45.the Thatcher years, more often as a reaction to the economic crises that
:03:46. > :03:50.have beset the country. In 2000 public spending as a percentage of
:03:51. > :03:54.GDP was 34%, the least for 40ersy. It began rising under the Blair
:03:55. > :04:00.Government and spiked sharply during the financial crisis, peaking at 47%
:04:01. > :04:05.in 200 #. Since then it has begun to fall again, although the projected
:04:06. > :04:09.big of 39% for 2014 is still higher than the early years of the last
:04:10. > :04:12.Labour Government. The state has of course retreated from ownership of
:04:13. > :04:17.the commanding heights of the British economy since 1979.
:04:18. > :04:20.Carriages telecom, airways, retain their "British" prefix, but the
:04:21. > :04:26.industries themselves were privatised and transformed. Perhaps,
:04:27. > :04:30.that though, was the easy bit. The Government is left with dealing in
:04:31. > :04:34.many areas difficult sticky issues, child protection. Can you imagine
:04:35. > :04:37.entrepeneurs want to go buy that service from the Government. Can you
:04:38. > :04:41.imagine the Government wanting to sell that to a private sector
:04:42. > :04:45.company. A lot of what Government does, get annoyed and get frustrated
:04:46. > :04:51.with the inefficiencies at times, but do you want a private company to
:04:52. > :04:55.run that. Add row ocates say the public is already ahead of the
:04:56. > :05:00.politicians in wanting consumer choice. As parent you can decide
:05:01. > :05:04.what apps are on your child's iPad, but you have no say over what they
:05:05. > :05:07.learn and how they learn it. We need a state that allows that
:05:08. > :05:10.self-selection, public service playlists controlled by members of
:05:11. > :05:13.the public. You are talking about the difference between entertainment
:05:14. > :05:17.and something that could be fundamental to a child's welfare.
:05:18. > :05:23.For example which private company ran a child protection scheme? Of
:05:24. > :05:26.course you know music and entertainment are relatively
:05:27. > :05:31.trivial, but the fact that you have choice over relatively trivial
:05:32. > :05:35.things, but don't have the same choice as fundamental over education
:05:36. > :05:39.and healthcare is part of the problem I think. It is certainly
:05:40. > :05:42.true that large areas of public spending are insulated from cuts.
:05:43. > :05:46.David Cameron was quick to make the NHS a symbol of his compassionate
:05:47. > :05:50.Conservatism when he became leader. It wasn't just a value, it was the
:05:51. > :05:54.ring-fencing of an entire budget. Overseas aid is simply protected,
:05:55. > :05:58.increasingly it sounds as if benefits for the elderly will be
:05:59. > :06:01.too. Recent attempts at privatisation, the Royal Mail, have
:06:02. > :06:06.led to accusations the UK taxpayer has been sold short. And when the
:06:07. > :06:13.security sector was opened up to companies like G 4 S, it fete with
:06:14. > :06:19.what we -- it was met with what we might call mixed results. There was
:06:20. > :06:23.the irony and some would say travasity, cuts to the Armed Forces,
:06:24. > :06:25.who would have thought it under a Tory Government. On the day he was
:06:26. > :06:32.elected leader of the Conservatives, David Cameron argued forcibly for
:06:33. > :06:35.society, making clear it was not the same as the state. An echo and
:06:36. > :06:41.rebuttal of Margaret Thatcher's words two decades ago. Those around
:06:42. > :06:44.him point out that although the rhetoric has gone quiet, Big Society
:06:45. > :06:50.has flourished behind the scenes. The problem for many politicians is
:06:51. > :06:57.the expression of any big idea, Big Society, smaller state, one-nation,
:06:58. > :07:01.is easy to talk about but harder to deliver. The public are perfectly
:07:02. > :07:05.willing to say they would like a smaller state apart from the one in
:07:06. > :07:10.which they themselves benefit. With us now to discuss all of this,
:07:11. > :07:14.Alister Heath, the editor of City AM, Sean Worth, a former special
:07:15. > :07:20.adviser to David Cameron, and now a senior consultant for the Policy
:07:21. > :07:24.Exchange think-tank. Vidhya Alakeson is deputy chief executive of the
:07:25. > :07:28.Resolution Foundation, and formerly a senior advisory to the Treasury
:07:29. > :07:36.when Gordon Brown was Chancellor. And Maurice Glassman, a Labour peer,
:07:37. > :07:42.who has advised bland. Ed Miliband. Urgh arguing in the Telegraph that
:07:43. > :07:45.George Osborne was not going far enough and he didn't have a real
:07:46. > :07:49.target for cutting public spending, are you serious? Yes I am serious,
:07:50. > :07:52.because I think the UK needs to reinvent what the Government does. I
:07:53. > :07:56.think we need to be more like Australia and Switzerland when it
:07:57. > :07:59.comes to overall levels of public spending. We need to find new ways
:08:00. > :08:04.to provide pensions and healthcare and some of these other services, to
:08:05. > :08:07.reduce the size of the state, and reduce taxes but improve services
:08:08. > :08:11.and help the poor. This is about re-thinking from scratch what does
:08:12. > :08:16.the Government do? What does the private sector do? What should
:08:17. > :08:20.individuals be responsible for. Let's go out there and look at other
:08:21. > :08:26.countries, how have the Germans got a good healthcare system and the
:08:27. > :08:30.Dutch healthcare system and the Singaporean system. You would accept
:08:31. > :08:34.that there hasn't been a dramatic cup in the size of the -- cut in the
:08:35. > :08:40.size of the state? There is holes you can pick in everything, the
:08:41. > :08:43.Dutch healthcare system has massive waiting times. George Osborne's
:08:44. > :08:48.plans were more aggressive, but there hasn't the growth that we
:08:49. > :08:53.expected in order to offset the need to just cut the public sector. He
:08:54. > :08:56.has pulled back from that. A lot of the caricatures of the left that
:08:57. > :09:00.he's some sort of hatchet man as we have seen, and others saying he
:09:01. > :09:03.should go further, actually he's much more in line with what the
:09:04. > :09:06.public have always been saying on this. They accept the need for cuts,
:09:07. > :09:10.we don't want to go too fast, too deep when there isn't the growth
:09:11. > :09:16.coming in to support them. What he's doing is not necessarily in line
:09:17. > :09:20.what with what he says he's doing? What he has said at the outset is
:09:21. > :09:23.there is a tough line on public spending, growth coming in and get
:09:24. > :09:27.down the deficit. That didn't actually happen as fast as was
:09:28. > :09:31.planned. But he set out a new target which goes more ambitious when
:09:32. > :09:35.growth comes in. I think it is perfectly reasonable. Is cutting the
:09:36. > :09:40.size of the state achievable? I think the gap between what different
:09:41. > :09:44.countries spend as a percentage of GDP, western countries it is
:09:45. > :09:47.relatively small. Let's not make a fetish of small states. What
:09:48. > :09:51.Alastair is saying, effectively, is let's figure out what we want the
:09:52. > :09:54.Government to do, what should be provided collectively and how much
:09:55. > :09:58.are we willing to spend on that. We are clearly not willing to spend as
:09:59. > :10:03.much as Sweden. But we seem to be willing to spend more than the US,
:10:04. > :10:06.for example, on public provision. We can't dramatically roll back the
:10:07. > :10:09.state and have the outcomes people care about. If you don't want to
:10:10. > :10:12.wait in hospitals and have the best cancer care and have good education
:10:13. > :10:16.for your children in school. There is only a certain amount you can
:10:17. > :10:21.roll back the state if those matter to you. We will come to what the
:10:22. > :10:25.state has to provide in a minute or two. Is this something that Ed
:10:26. > :10:29.Miliband should be looking at? Definitely. I would say in agreement
:10:30. > :10:32.that there is a complete lack of strategic vision in the Government,
:10:33. > :10:38.in relation. It is just less the same, or sometimes more of the same.
:10:39. > :10:41.But what's required is quite a radical decentralisation of power,
:10:42. > :10:45.people have to have a greater sense of participation and ownership.
:10:46. > :10:49.There is also the case that this discussion is post crash with the
:10:50. > :10:52.enormous failure of the financial sector, the irresponsibility and
:10:53. > :10:57.recklessness. We need to think about what the state can do to facilitate
:10:58. > :11:01.a common good, corporate governance reform, those issues. We need to
:11:02. > :11:06.think about where are the areas of quality and how to build upon them.
:11:07. > :11:10.There have been no technological advances funded by the private
:11:11. > :11:14.sector, all from the public sector. What is the job of the state? What
:11:15. > :11:19.does the state have to provide? The state has to provide help for the
:11:20. > :11:22.poor, it needs to help people get on in life. It has to provide law and
:11:23. > :11:26.order. It doesn't have to produce every pension. It doesn't have to be
:11:27. > :11:29.state pensions for everybody, for example, in countries like Australia
:11:30. > :11:33.people save a lot of money for themselves. People save 9-12% of
:11:34. > :11:37.their income every year. You see that in lots of other countries
:11:38. > :11:41.around the world, where most people in these societies have pensions.
:11:42. > :11:46.Pensions is one area? It is an area where the state could retrench, and
:11:47. > :11:50.focus its efforts for helping the worse off. We have an expensive
:11:51. > :11:54.pensions system at the moment in the UK. It doesn't work very well.
:11:55. > :11:58.Pensions are poor and the income is too low. What do you think of the
:11:59. > :12:01.idea in Germany where there is a codetermination of the pension funds
:12:02. > :12:06.between capital and labour and there is a greater roll for unions. I
:12:07. > :12:10.prefer the systems in Latin America and New Zealand, they have a pot of
:12:11. > :12:14.money, they spend 40 years, they save 10% or more of their income a
:12:15. > :12:18.year and they provide for themselves in retirement and the state helps if
:12:19. > :12:22.they can't afford to do that. There are areas the state has to grow,
:12:23. > :12:26.social care, NHS, we have an ageing population, as countries get richer
:12:27. > :12:30.they want to spend more on healthcare. Public funding wise, not
:12:31. > :12:34.necessarily in the provision, we can have multiplicity of providers, but
:12:35. > :12:37.publicly funding there will be more of. That I don't think that is the
:12:38. > :12:40.case in terms of healthcare. We have seen in some other countries that
:12:41. > :12:44.you can massively tap private insurance schemes, secondary
:12:45. > :12:51.insurance and so on. A lot of people could take part in this co-fansing.
:12:52. > :12:54.Is there a -- co-financing. Is the distinction between private and
:12:55. > :12:58.public sector getting increasingly blurred? The problem with this sort
:12:59. > :13:03.of academic debate is it doesn't operate in a world of political
:13:04. > :13:09.reality. Academic! What world do you live in? The massive devolution of
:13:10. > :13:13.power, Dutch-style blooming pension schemes. No, no, no, the big problem
:13:14. > :13:17.that everyone has right now in the debate is they are looking at it in
:13:18. > :13:21.a static picture, they are saying here is what we pay on the state,
:13:22. > :13:25.here is what it DPOESHGS we cut it, it won't do that any more. We should
:13:26. > :13:29.be looking at productivity improvements as every business or
:13:30. > :13:34.charity that is to do. If you do things differently and bring in more
:13:35. > :13:39.competition do things, and if you look at the work force and pay them
:13:40. > :13:45.by performance. How will that reduce the size of the state? We haven't
:13:46. > :13:49.done any of it. The real story is we need to spend much more on
:13:50. > :13:52.healthcare in the next 20 years, there will be new technologies,
:13:53. > :13:58.people are getting older. We want to spend more on healthcare, I want to,
:13:59. > :14:01.as we get richer, the health service can't cope, otherwise there will be
:14:02. > :14:05.huge increases in taxation of finances. This is not the way
:14:06. > :14:08.forward. This is why we need to find alternative sources of financing
:14:09. > :14:13.healthcare and pensions. New forms of social insurance, we need to go
:14:14. > :14:17.back and look at what Beveridge was talking about and look at other
:14:18. > :14:21.countries. In this country we are obsessed at what we do and not
:14:22. > :14:29.looking at what other countries have achieved. The There is excellent
:14:30. > :14:33.work being done by Frank Field, it is really excellent work and being
:14:34. > :14:38.really seriously examined in the policy review. But also about the
:14:39. > :14:42.engagment of the work force in the governance of the public sector. One
:14:43. > :14:47.of the appalling aspects of the state is the indifference sometimes
:14:48. > :14:50.to users but also the way it treats its workers. In schools they are
:14:51. > :14:56.supposed to have a balance of interest, a third funder, a third
:14:57. > :15:00.user, a third work force. It is also the case that more money doesn't
:15:01. > :15:02.necessarily mean better public services? I think that's been
:15:03. > :15:07.demonstrated time and time again. But what I'm saying is that whilst
:15:08. > :15:11.Alastair can point out our areas where we could shrink the state,
:15:12. > :15:14.just the demographic change and the growth of technology suggests there
:15:15. > :15:18.are certain areas we will spend more not less. Yes, maybe something could
:15:19. > :15:21.be done through insurance, but there isn't a huge appetite at the moment
:15:22. > :15:26.from the UK public to have a core package provided by the NHS and
:15:27. > :15:31.supplementary insurance. We are miles away from that idea as
:15:32. > :15:35.something people will accept. It is a 20-year cultural change that if we
:15:36. > :15:39.don't radically reform the welfare state it will eat up more of our
:15:40. > :15:44.national income and that will mean higher taxes than today. The public
:15:45. > :15:47.won't want that. It will impact our economic performance. Very large
:15:48. > :15:53.Governments with large burdens of taxation, means low growth, low job
:15:54. > :16:00.creation and low income. It is the case that we can't leave the City of
:16:01. > :16:03.London for example in its light touch unregulated condition, which
:16:04. > :16:07.led to extraordinary levels of cheating, there has to be a
:16:08. > :16:12.structural change. One thing we are thinking about, and I'm certainly in
:16:13. > :16:16.favour of, is the reform of the City of London itself, the Corporation of
:16:17. > :16:20.the City of London, the most ancient democratic institution that only
:16:21. > :16:24.represents capital. We should extend it to all London. Democratic
:16:25. > :16:29.Governments have to decentralise. It is a separate argument? I was going
:16:30. > :16:33.to say the councils... Sorry. I would be interested to know whether
:16:34. > :16:37.from your intimate experience of how Government works whether David
:16:38. > :16:42.Cameron and George Osborne really believe in shrinking the size of the
:16:43. > :16:44.state, do they? I think most of the Conservatives would look at the
:16:45. > :16:50.ballooning of the size of the state... Most Conservatives! ? I do
:16:51. > :16:54.think that. I wonder why they didn't say it before the election? Most
:16:55. > :16:57.people believe that as well. They believe public sector pay and work
:16:58. > :17:01.force numbers and everything else got completely out of control as
:17:02. > :17:05.well as welfare and the things you are mentioning. The challenge they
:17:06. > :17:10.have got to grip is that, yes, we can have a smaller state and get
:17:11. > :17:15.down to 40% of GDP, which I think on your piece relates to the period of
:17:16. > :17:20.about 20001. But, you know, you are right, the demands on certain areas
:17:21. > :17:24.of public service in particular areas which serve populations that
:17:25. > :17:28.don't work, the youngest and the oldest, those are getting bigger and
:17:29. > :17:32.bigger and bigger. We can have a shrunk state but we have to reform
:17:33. > :17:36.what's in it in order to make it work. I would completely agree with
:17:37. > :17:39.what the Government is doing, and the signal that is put out. Where it
:17:40. > :17:43.needs to go faster is ideas on reform. You don't need to be as
:17:44. > :17:50.academic as these guys, just look at base he can productivity. I'm sorry
:17:51. > :17:54.this debate frustrates me, people don't relate to it, nothing happens.
:17:55. > :17:57.By 2017 the reduction in the size of the state will not be enough to
:17:58. > :18:00.generate real tax cuts, you will only balance the budget, all of this
:18:01. > :18:04.for that, it is not enough. A warning today that unless
:18:05. > :18:08.something is done and done soon, over half of the people of Britain
:18:09. > :18:12.will be grossly fat by the middle of this century. We're already well on
:18:13. > :18:17.the way as a glance at the enormous bellies and bums on most crowded
:18:18. > :18:23.high streets will show. A quarter of men and women are already classified
:18:24. > :18:27.as obese, yet if you looked at any pub or work place 40 years ago you
:18:28. > :18:31.would have found it full of cigarette smoke. One public health
:18:32. > :18:35.issue after another. Think AIDS, for example, has demonstrated that to
:18:36. > :18:43.change outcomes you have to change attitudes, that means raising
:18:44. > :18:49.awareness. Not smoking, or drink-driving, or
:18:50. > :19:00.drugs. But a different kind of hard-hitting commercial. This from
:19:01. > :19:05.Australia. It is not a secret the UK, like most western countries,
:19:06. > :19:08.faces a sizeable weight problem. The latest warning today that unless
:19:09. > :19:13.there is a significant change in our lifestyle we're heading for what is
:19:14. > :19:17.being called a doomsday scenario. What we have to do is to have a
:19:18. > :19:22.campaign that hasn't yet existed. We have had obesity for 20, 30 years
:19:23. > :19:30.and the attitude of the Government has been extremely laissez faire.
:19:31. > :19:35.National bee palm bee, maybe a little -- nanby, pamby, we have to
:19:36. > :19:39.seriously consider changing behaviour and really becoming a bit
:19:40. > :19:44.nasty, if you will, for those people who need the help. But getting us to
:19:45. > :19:47.switch a plate of this for a lighter option is not going to happen
:19:48. > :19:52.overnight. Smoking in a pub or driving home after a few points
:19:53. > :19:55.might now seem like a hangover from the 20th century. In reality it can
:19:56. > :20:03.take millions of pound to start to change public perceptions and then
:20:04. > :20:08.public behaviour. The virus can be passed during sexual intercourse
:20:09. > :20:14.with an infected person... Some most of the most memorable health
:20:15. > :20:23.campaigns have shocked us, sexual health, to drink-driving, to
:20:24. > :20:27.smoking. Every 15 cigarettes you smoke will cause a mutation. But
:20:28. > :20:32.shock by itself isn't always enough. It might lay the ground for change,
:20:33. > :20:36.but often it is legislation that makes the real difference. Public
:20:37. > :20:40.health campaigns and your doctor telling you that basically the way
:20:41. > :20:42.you are behaving, whether smoking or eating too much is bad for you. All
:20:43. > :20:47.those things are really important and they do have a major impact. You
:20:48. > :20:51.also need legislation to frame behaviour. Legislation can be a cost
:20:52. > :20:55.effective way of changing behaviour. The ban on advertising promotion and
:20:56. > :20:59.sponsorship, we have seen a dramatic fall in smoking amongst children and
:21:00. > :21:05.adults since that came into effect. It cost nothing to Government. I
:21:06. > :21:11.like this, "he's a growing lad". This is the next generation of
:21:12. > :21:16.marketeers, we asked these undergraduate advertising students
:21:17. > :21:20.at London college of communication how they would approach the problem.
:21:21. > :21:25.Given a rough brief and two hours to work on it, there was satire on the
:21:26. > :21:28.fast food industry. If you have the fast food industry portrayed like
:21:29. > :21:32.your friend it is easier to go there and have a nice meal. If you
:21:33. > :21:39.actually see what kind of person you would be if you ended up living that
:21:40. > :21:46.lifestyle, it feels like yeah that would affect me. And a bunch of
:21:47. > :21:59.catchy slogans. Antiobesity campaigners although
:22:00. > :22:04.wary of going too far too fast and alienating the public with shock
:22:05. > :22:08.tactics. We have to learn the lessons from the other hard-hitting
:22:09. > :22:12.campaigns and have them in reserve to go and use them, to start off
:22:13. > :22:17.with those campaigns the public is not yet ready for it. You know how
:22:18. > :22:23.it is, you settle down, put on a few kilos, I'm not worried.
:22:24. > :22:27.For the moment, then, at least, this kind of commercial sun likely to
:22:28. > :22:33.make its way on to British TV screens. In 30 years time the
:22:34. > :22:41.Australian approach to obesity might look like scaremongering, or
:22:42. > :22:45.perceptive and far-sighted maybe. It is naturally assumed that a patient
:22:46. > :22:49.in the care of the National Health Service is protected. But tonight
:22:50. > :22:54.Newsnight can report claims that a patient was raped between 50-60
:22:55. > :22:58.times while at an NHS psychiatric hospital in Kent, by one of the
:22:59. > :23:02.people who was supposed to be looking after her. The woman is now
:23:03. > :23:08.in her 40s and a mother of two. She says the care worker told her he
:23:09. > :23:17.would get her discharged if she didn't do, he would be able to help
:23:18. > :23:21.her and not get her discharged if he didn't do what he wanted. We are
:23:22. > :23:35.protecting her identity, so Katherine is not her real name, we
:23:36. > :23:40.went to meet her. Katherine was admitted to Little
:23:41. > :23:45.Brook Psychiatric Hospital in Kent in 2003 and treated for nearly six
:23:46. > :23:50.months. She had emerged from a long-term violent relationship and
:23:51. > :23:55.had offaled anorexia. At her home she told me the abuse began a week
:23:56. > :24:00.after she arrived at the unit. One night he came into my room and sat
:24:01. > :24:13.on my bed, he was stroking me over the covers, my legs and my thighs
:24:14. > :24:18.and it went from there. What happened next? He came into my room
:24:19. > :24:27.on another occasion, said nothing to me, pulled the covers back and got
:24:28. > :24:35.on top of me and raped me. And that continued every shift he was on for
:24:36. > :24:41.the entirety of my stay. Did you move, did you speak on that first
:24:42. > :24:46.occasion? No. I wasn't speaking to anybody about anything at any time
:24:47. > :24:59.about anything for the first couple of weeks there. I was so defeated so
:25:00. > :25:05.I was putty in Ninkovich's hands. -- putty in any one's hands. Were you
:25:06. > :25:09.aware what he was doing was wrong? I was aware, I didn't like what he was
:25:10. > :25:13.doing, and I didn't want him to be doing what he was doing. He would
:25:14. > :25:18.say he's responsible on his shift to write up the reports on how all the
:25:19. > :25:22.patients had been that night. It would go in my favour. He would make
:25:23. > :25:26.sure I was able to get out of there. I had tried to leave two or three
:25:27. > :25:31.times, but I was always stopped and always told that I was too ill and I
:25:32. > :25:50.would be sectioned. They had me over a barrel. I was stuck. Sorry... .
:25:51. > :25:55.It's fine, it is fine. It sounds so ridiculous, why the hell didn't you
:25:56. > :26:00.kick him off. I was very alone in that place. You have a long-term,
:26:01. > :26:07.highly-regarded member of staff tell you that your way out, your ticket
:26:08. > :26:13.out is to agree to his demands. And then you find you have not argued
:26:14. > :26:17.and said no and fought back the first time and then it happens again
:26:18. > :26:22.and the second time then you think well nobody is going to believe me
:26:23. > :26:26.now if I speak because I didn't speak up about the first time. It
:26:27. > :26:32.sound like you were broken? I was broken. Completely broken. Was he
:26:33. > :26:39.grooming you, was he blackmailing you, how would you describe it?
:26:40. > :26:44.Without a doubt he was who was going to believe a mentally ill person,
:26:45. > :26:48.over a long standing member of staff, popular with his colleagues.
:26:49. > :26:52.It is a playing field for predators. On one occasion you had to be taken
:26:53. > :26:58.during A? During the course of the day I started to get more and more
:26:59. > :27:02.pain in my lower pelvic area, it got to quite an excruciating pain by the
:27:03. > :27:08.evening. I was taken by ambulance with a member of staff to the local
:27:09. > :27:12.A hospital, and kept in for 24 hours, I was diagnosed subsequently
:27:13. > :27:18.with pelvic inflammatory disease. Which is a sexually transmitted
:27:19. > :27:25.infection? It is. Did anyone ask how you might have contracted that? No.
:27:26. > :27:30.Not one person. Eventually you were discharged from Little Brook and
:27:31. > :27:35.placed in the care of a community psychiatric nurse, which is how the
:27:36. > :27:41.abuse emerged in the end, wasn't it? I had struggled, I had struggled a
:27:42. > :27:45.lot with why didn't I kick him off, why did I just lay there. Why did I
:27:46. > :27:51.allow it to happen. And the better I got, the more acutely I struggled
:27:52. > :27:54.with those questions. So I hypotheyically asked this
:27:55. > :27:57.psychiatric nurse if a patient were to find themselves in this position
:27:58. > :28:04.but they did nothing about it and allowed it to happen, are they as
:28:05. > :28:12.much to blame. And she very quickly desievered that I was talk --
:28:13. > :28:15.understood I was talking about myself. She told her manager, and
:28:16. > :28:20.because it was a criminal offence the police were called and he was
:28:21. > :28:23.arrested. He pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual intercourse with
:28:24. > :28:29.patient on one occasion, and eventually he was given a 12-month
:28:30. > :28:33.custodial sentence that was suspended for two years. Although
:28:34. > :28:38.the judge said in his comments that he had to suspend his cynicism that
:28:39. > :28:42.it only happened on one occasion and several other charges were to remain
:28:43. > :28:47.on file. What did you think of that sentence? Disturbing that someone
:28:48. > :28:59.can ultimately rape someone in such a vulnerable time in their life when
:29:00. > :29:03.they are desperately in need of care . To rape someone between 50-60
:29:04. > :29:07.times when there is nothing they can do about it, and them to walk away
:29:08. > :29:12.from court, in my mind, with a mere slap on the wrist, is something that
:29:13. > :29:21.has brought me to where I am today. He was never charged with rape
:29:22. > :29:27.though? It was rape to me. You are defeated, empty, you have no
:29:28. > :29:32.self-worth. Devoid of all emotion and then someone that is supposed to
:29:33. > :29:36.be caring for you has sexual intercourse with you when you don't
:29:37. > :29:47.have the capacity to stand up for yourself. That's rape. To me that's
:29:48. > :29:52.rape. As I have got better over the years it is just, it has encouraged
:29:53. > :29:56.me all the more to speak out. So you would say to people it is worth
:29:57. > :29:59.speaking out if it has happened to you? Absolutely, I have never
:30:00. > :30:03.regretted speaking out. Don't think you won't be believed. That is one
:30:04. > :30:12.thing that was never at fault. I was always believed. In 2009 Catherine
:30:13. > :30:16.received ?100,000 from the Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care
:30:17. > :30:20.Partnership Trust. She also received a letter of apology, which said the
:30:21. > :30:24.member of the staff who abused her would be "unable to work in the
:30:25. > :30:27.future with vulnerable people", it went to say "we acknowledge how
:30:28. > :30:33.difficult this process has been for you and we are very sorry this has
:30:34. > :30:36.happened". We reached the man at the centre of those allegations this
:30:37. > :30:39.evening, a person close to him told us he had been in touch with the
:30:40. > :30:45.police today and that he had no further comment to make. Kent and
:30:46. > :30:49.Medway NHS and Social Scare Partnership Trust told us they were
:30:50. > :30:52.unable to comment on Katherine's face because it happened before the
:30:53. > :31:00.formation of their Trust. But they pointed out that all staff undergo
:31:01. > :31:04.an enhanced disclosure and barring check. You can watch a longer
:31:05. > :31:08.version of that interview on the Five Live website.
:31:09. > :31:13.The Israelis buried their hugely controversial former Prime Minister,
:31:14. > :31:20.Ariel Sharon today. He died this week after spending eight years in a
:31:21. > :31:28.coma. Both Tony Blair and Joe Biden praised Mr Sharon today after a
:31:29. > :31:33.mixed reputation, a reviled military commander and statesman prepared to
:31:34. > :31:36.withdraw Israeli settlers from the Gaza strip. The Middle East he left
:31:37. > :31:44.was a different place to the Middle East when he entered his coma. We
:31:45. > :31:49.report. He was a man with two faces. The
:31:50. > :31:54.renegade military commander with a reputation for disobeying orders,
:31:55. > :31:59.who reinvented himself as a political peace maker of sorts. He
:32:00. > :32:04.is the right-wing politician who contributed a lot into the
:32:05. > :32:08.irresponsible policy of the settlements, on the other hand he's
:32:09. > :32:12.the only politician who managed to do the almost impossible which is
:32:13. > :32:16.evacuate the settlements. To Palestinians he became a butcher and
:32:17. > :32:23.war criminal. But to many Israelis he was a hero. Ariel Sharon
:32:24. > :32:26.epitomised the Zionist dream, in a sense that he was brought up on a
:32:27. > :32:31.farming community and became a soldier, a very brave soldier. The
:32:32. > :32:36.one that showed the initiatives and was not afraid of actually
:32:37. > :32:42.confronting the danger that the Israelis faced at the time. Much
:32:43. > :32:46.like the nation of Israel itself, Ariel Sharon was born on a
:32:47. > :32:52.collective farm, on a Jewish settlement in British-mandated
:32:53. > :32:55.Palestinian. In many ways his life mirrored that of the country he
:32:56. > :32:58.helped to forge and went on to lead. As a soldier and later as a
:32:59. > :33:06.politician he had a hand in every single war that Israel fought. As
:33:07. > :33:10.Defence Minister in 1982 he masterminded the invasion of
:33:11. > :33:14.Lebanon. An Israeli inquiry found Ariel Sharon indirectly but
:33:15. > :33:19.personally responsible for a three-day massacre by Christian
:33:20. > :33:22.militia men, allied to Israel. Hundreds, maybe thousands of
:33:23. > :33:26.Palestinian civilians were slaughtered. But by then his
:33:27. > :33:32.reputation as a brilliant military commander was already cemented. In
:33:33. > :33:36.1967 he captured large parts of the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt. Six
:33:37. > :33:41.years later during the Yom Kippur war, he encircled the Egyptian army
:33:42. > :33:47.on a daring raid, which turned the tide of war in Israel's favour. Many
:33:48. > :33:53.claim he saved the country by crossing the Suez Canal in the
:33:54. > :33:58.middle of the war in spite of precise instructions by his
:33:59. > :34:02.commander not to do it. And that's where he gained basically his
:34:03. > :34:11.legacy. These were the wars that shaped the future of Israel and of
:34:12. > :34:16.the Middle East for decades to come. In the 1990s, Ariel Sharon presided
:34:17. > :34:20.over the largest expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and
:34:21. > :34:34.Gaza since Israel occupied them in 1967. But his Prime Minister in --
:34:35. > :34:39.as Prime Minister in 2005 just before his illness, he shocked
:34:40. > :34:45.Israelis, without consulting the Palestinians, he withdrew from Gaza.
:34:46. > :34:49.He framed it in Israel's security interests. But many said only
:34:50. > :34:53.Sharon, with his reputation could have got away with it. Some believe
:34:54. > :34:57.had he continued in office he would have gone further still. He probably
:34:58. > :35:03.would have pulled out completely from the West Bank, but he would put
:35:04. > :35:10.much more effort into reaching an agreement with the Palestinians in
:35:11. > :35:19.which most of the West Bank is evacuated and a Palestinian state is
:35:20. > :35:23.established. The Arab Spring shattered the geopolitical
:35:24. > :35:30.certainties that had become the Middle East's uneasy status quo. As
:35:31. > :35:34.dictators fell and power brokers saw their country descend into Civil
:35:35. > :35:40.War, Ariel Sharon lay alive but unconscious in a hospital bed. It is
:35:41. > :35:44.tempting to speculate how Sharon right have reacted to the events of
:35:45. > :35:48.the Arab Spring, could he have steered Israel to a more pivitol
:35:49. > :35:52.war, had he not been wiped off the political map by that stroke. We
:35:53. > :35:54.will never know. As it is the conflict between the Israelis and
:35:55. > :36:01.Palestinians, once so central to the region has now taken a back seat to
:36:02. > :36:08.other concerns. I don't think he could have changing anything that
:36:09. > :36:13.happened around Israel in the Arab Spring. Most will admit that the
:36:14. > :36:16.Arab Spring was a humbling experience for a country that used
:36:17. > :36:21.to believe it could almost shape the Middle East and be in control. For
:36:22. > :36:26.the first time since 2011 it became obvious that it is very limited
:36:27. > :36:30.impacting at what happens around and the world as Israel knew it
:36:31. > :36:36.disappeared. They were left to deal with a very different Middle East.
:36:37. > :36:41.Ariel Sharon's body was laid to rest today at his ranch near Gaza. In his
:36:42. > :36:45.day it was a truth universally acknowledged that if you solved the
:36:46. > :36:48.conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians you solved the
:36:49. > :36:54.problems of the Middle East. Few still believe that today. In a
:36:55. > :36:57.moment we will speak to Mostafa Barghouti, a member of the
:36:58. > :37:02.Palestinian Legislative Council who is in Ramallah, first joining us in
:37:03. > :37:07.the studio is Daniel Taub, the Israeli ambassador to the UK. You
:37:08. > :37:11.worked with Ariel Sharon, did you like him? I did, and I have to say I
:37:12. > :37:16.think everybody who met him, particularly because he had such a
:37:17. > :37:20.clear public persona was really quite taken aback to see what a
:37:21. > :37:24.multidimensional person he actually was. He was somebody who loved music
:37:25. > :37:28.and his food, of course. He was somebody, if you asked him, he had
:37:29. > :37:32.been a soldier a politician, but if you asked him what he really was he
:37:33. > :37:36.would have probably said a farmer. He was never happier than when he
:37:37. > :37:41.was on his ranch in the Negev, he felt very, very close to the land.
:37:42. > :37:48.When you look at the Middle East he left, a few days ago, and you look
:37:49. > :37:51.at how it was when he suffered and went into the coma. They are very
:37:52. > :37:57.different places aren't they? They are different places, but it is
:37:58. > :38:00.interesting you know, your journalists were decribing different
:38:01. > :38:04.faces of Ariel Sharon, I think there is a fairly consistent theme that
:38:05. > :38:09.would still be relevant today even in the new Middle East. The guiding
:38:10. > :38:15.principle of his life is how can we ensure that we remain a stable and
:38:16. > :38:19.secure society in this conflict. He said it himself, he said we are in a
:38:20. > :38:23.region that is merciless to the weak, but we cannot ensure our
:38:24. > :38:29.security only through the sword. And it was really between those two
:38:30. > :38:32.perameter, between ensuring your security and trying to reach out.
:38:33. > :38:35.This is what he did in Gaza and the north of the West Bank, where he
:38:36. > :38:39.uprooted settlers. He was trying to find the way, in difficult
:38:40. > :38:43.circumstances, we could try to find an accommodation. I suppose the
:38:44. > :38:46.irony is that he was the guy that taught Israelis that we needed to
:38:47. > :38:49.reach out for peace, and unfortunately the legacy of that
:38:50. > :38:53.disengagment, where unfortunately that land we pulled out of turned
:38:54. > :38:57.into launching pads for missiles against us has really unfortunately
:38:58. > :39:01.made it much harder for us to reach out in that way at the moment. It is
:39:02. > :39:07.interesting that his successes haven't acted -- successors haven't
:39:08. > :39:10.acted as he has? I'm not sure that is true. We have a leader at the
:39:11. > :39:13.moment, Prime Minister Netanyahu, in very much the same way has
:39:14. > :39:15.recognised and spoken frankly about the fact that we need an
:39:16. > :39:20.accommodation with the Palestinians, we have to compromise on our dreams
:39:21. > :39:24.for their dreams. He's releasing as we are speaking now, and we have
:39:25. > :39:29.spoken about it in the past, very brutal terrorists, in a sense in way
:39:30. > :39:32.to make a gesture to strengthen the Palestinian Authority, and to try to
:39:33. > :39:35.create the environment to reach a peace together. Thank you. Let's
:39:36. > :39:39.just have a quick chat now to Mostafa Barghouti, who is in the
:39:40. > :39:45.West Bank. Mr Barghouti, when you hear today, Joe Biden talking about
:39:46. > :39:48.Israel, Palestine as a possible island of stability in the Middle
:39:49. > :40:00.East, you do realise what a huge change has occurred, don't you? Well
:40:01. > :40:05.I'm sure, I'm not sure this is an area of stability, I don't think you
:40:06. > :40:13.could call a system of colonialism and apartheid and the loest
:40:14. > :40:16.occupation in modern history that. In contrary to what was said I don't
:40:17. > :40:21.think Ariel Sharon will be remembered as a peace-maker but
:40:22. > :40:26.rather as a warrior as he described himself. For many Palestinians he's
:40:27. > :40:33.a war criminal, responsible for several crimes and several
:40:34. > :40:40.massacres, starting in the 19 50s, to the one that he was found guilty,
:40:41. > :40:46.skilling Egyptian soldiers when they were prisoners of war, et cetera, et
:40:47. > :40:49.cetera. The most unfortunate thing the language of force is still used
:40:50. > :40:52.and we are still under occupation and we still suffer from a system of
:40:53. > :40:55.apartheid that is much worse than what prevailed in South Africa. I
:40:56. > :40:59.don't think we can call this stability. When you look at the
:41:00. > :41:05.political situation that you find yourselves in now, and you look at
:41:06. > :41:11.what has happened to all the once powerful states, Egypt, Syria,
:41:12. > :41:16.surrounding Palestine, is it easier now to try to make some sort of
:41:17. > :41:22.political progress or is it a lot more difficult? I think, I think the
:41:23. > :41:28.situation in the Middle East is a situation of people struggling to
:41:29. > :41:32.achieve democracy. I think most Arab people have revolted and will
:41:33. > :41:37.continue to revolt until they achieve what they deserve which is
:41:38. > :41:43.democracy and proper representation of the people. Tunisia represents a
:41:44. > :41:50.good example of peaceful revolution. Egypt is a different story, Syria is
:41:51. > :41:54.drowning in a terrible Civil War. But in Palestine also we have a very
:41:55. > :42:01.important struggle. A struggle of people who decided to turn to
:42:02. > :42:06.nonviolence and we are conducting our own non--violent resistance
:42:07. > :42:13.today, to end the occupation and to achieve independence and achieve
:42:14. > :42:19.democracy as well. I believe that the turmoil in the Middle East
:42:20. > :42:23.should not distract us from the fact that real stability in the Middle
:42:24. > :42:27.East can't be achieved without solving the Palestinian issue. Thank
:42:28. > :42:32.you, ambassador a quick last word from you. The situation, the
:42:33. > :42:37.political situation that has arisen now, where you have this turmoil
:42:38. > :42:45.engulfing all those many states around the region. And the attempts
:42:46. > :42:52.to make peace within Israel and McAllister stein, seen once as --
:42:53. > :42:56.McAllister Palestine, seen once as the key to the problems in the
:42:57. > :42:59.Middle East? I don't think it was ever the key to the Middle East, we
:43:00. > :43:03.have to solve our conflict, because we have to, but we shouldn't delude
:43:04. > :43:06.ourselves that every other part of the Middle East will fall into
:43:07. > :43:10.place. One of the lessons we can draw from the life of Sharon,
:43:11. > :43:14.relevant across the region, you need courage to defend yourselves but
:43:15. > :43:18.also courage to make peace. Part of that courage is to tell the truth to
:43:19. > :43:23.your own people. That is what he did repeatedly, speaking tou words to
:43:24. > :43:26.his own constituency. And I think our neighbours could do a great
:43:27. > :43:29.service if they were to speak to their peoples in the same way.
:43:30. > :43:35.Straight after this programme there is an hour world special about the
:43:36. > :43:41.life of Ariel Sharon. Reports came in shortly before they came on air
:43:42. > :43:45.that Google has made a rather extravagant post-Christmas purchase,
:43:46. > :43:49.our technology editor is in San Francisco and can tell us more. What
:43:50. > :43:53.have they bought? They have bought a company called Nest, around for a
:43:54. > :43:59.few years now, they make connected home devices and Google have bought
:44:00. > :44:03.them for the Princely sum of $3. 2 billion. It confirms Google is no
:44:04. > :44:07.longer a search engine company, it is about machine-learning. What do I
:44:08. > :44:12.mean by that, it is about getting computers and machines to do things
:44:13. > :44:18.that are useful and adapt themselves to every day life. Nest make this
:44:19. > :44:21.thermostat, it is not lit up or connected to anything, with this
:44:22. > :44:24.connected to a smartphone you can connect to your boiler or central
:44:25. > :44:28.heating and control it from anywhere in the world. It learns about your
:44:29. > :44:32.activities and habits, it knows when you leave and come home. It adapts
:44:33. > :44:41.itself to that. They make this, which is a carbon non-knock side and
:44:42. > :44:47.-- monoxide and smoke detector. This passes what Larry Page said, Google
:44:48. > :44:51.have said today, the toothbrush test that Larry Page sets for Google to
:44:52. > :44:56.get involved with, it has to be useful and used daily by people.
:44:57. > :45:01.Thank you very much indeed. That's it for tonight, the outcome of the
:45:02. > :45:06.Poetry Book Society's TS Elliot Prize was announced tonight. It has
:45:07. > :45:11.been won by Sinead Morrissey, Poet Laureate of Belfast. Her collection,
:45:12. > :45:19.Parallax, was inspired by an image of David Niven on an escalator of
:45:20. > :45:25.all things. Here she is reading Lighthouse. My son is awake at ten,
:45:26. > :45:32.stretched out in his bunk, wired and watchful. The end of August. Already
:45:33. > :45:39.the high flung daylight sky of our northern solstice dulls earlier and
:45:40. > :45:44.earlier to a clouded bowl. His Star of David lamp and plastic moon have
:45:45. > :45:54.turned the dusk to dark outside his room. Across the Loch, where ferries
:45:55. > :46:01.venture blythly, and once a cruiseship, massive as a palace,
:46:02. > :46:07.inched its brilliant decks to open sea, a lighthouse starts its own
:46:08. > :46:13.night-long address in fractured signalling. It blinks and bats the
:46:14. > :46:21.swing ball of its beam, then stands to catch, then hurls it out again,
:46:22. > :46:28.beyond its Parallax. He counts each creamy loop inside his head, each
:46:29. > :46:34.well black interval, and thinks it just for him. This gesture from a
:46:35. > :46:42.world that can't be entered, the two of them, partly curtained, partly
:46:43. > :46:52.seen, upheld in a sort of boy-talk conversation. No-one else can hear.
:46:53. > :46:59.That private place, it answers with birds and slatted windows. I've been
:47:00. > :47:09.there. #6 Hello, an icy start to Tuesday,
:47:10. > :47:11.behind