:00:10. > :00:17.It is almost half a century old. But is the Aorganisation Act fit for
:00:18. > :00:24.purpose in the modern world. With abortion going ahead on the basis of
:00:25. > :00:27.gender, we will debate whether it is time to update legislation.
:00:28. > :00:30.Tomorrow Ed Miliband will give us a clue as to how Labour will run the
:00:31. > :00:38.economy. Today George Osborne tried to get in his pre-emptive attack.
:00:39. > :00:44.Tonight, what does Vincent Cable think? The UK gives Nigeria hundreds
:00:45. > :00:49.of millions in aid. So why have we been unable to prevent antigay
:00:50. > :00:55.legislation coming into force there. I fear for my family and my friends.
:00:56. > :01:00.I fear for every ordinary lesbian, gay, transsexual, transgender people
:01:01. > :01:03.in Nigeria. And it is a very exciting time if you are a solar
:01:04. > :01:07.scientist, because the sun has fallen asleep. What difference will
:01:08. > :01:22.that make to predictions of rising global temperatures in the future.
:01:23. > :01:27.Good evening, in 1967 in an attempt to end backstreet aorganisations, a
:01:28. > :01:32.law was introduce -- abortion, a law was introduced in England Scotland
:01:33. > :01:38.and Wales, almost five decades later, 185,000 terminations were
:01:39. > :01:41.performed. Including a minority including women who had one because
:01:42. > :01:46.they were expecting a girl. According to the Independent
:01:47. > :01:50.Newspaper. Some campaigners say the Abortion Act is no longer fit for
:01:51. > :01:53.purpose, and needs updating. It comes at the same time as figures
:01:54. > :01:58.obtained by a Conservative MP, a member of the all-party pro-life
:01:59. > :02:01.group, shows that in nearly half cases doctors sign off abortions
:02:02. > :02:06.without having met the woman whose termination they are approving. The
:02:07. > :02:13.1967 legislation requires two doctors sign a consent form "in good
:02:14. > :02:19.faith", but it doesn't require face-to-face assessment. For nearly
:02:20. > :02:24.five decades the 1967 Abortion Act has remained relatively unchanged.
:02:25. > :02:27.Increasingly on both sides of the debate there are calls for reform.
:02:28. > :02:34.Even the law's architect says it is out of date. In 67 the only method
:02:35. > :02:40.of abortion was surgery. And that is no longer the case. Also the law in
:02:41. > :02:44.the rest of Europe has changed and most of our European neighbours
:02:45. > :02:49.allow a woman's right to choose up to about the 13th week of pregnancy.
:02:50. > :02:54.That we don't allow. There are two major issues which I think need to
:02:55. > :02:59.be addressed. What would concern you most do you think about revisiting
:03:00. > :03:03.that law? My anxiety about an inquiry is that those who are
:03:04. > :03:07.campaigning against abortion all the time will want to try to use it to
:03:08. > :03:12.restrict the law. And that would be a mistake. The 1967 act doesn't
:03:13. > :03:18.state explicitly that abortion is a woman's right. Instead the law says
:03:19. > :03:22.that two doctors kittying in food faith -- acting in good faith can
:03:23. > :03:25.permit a termination when it is in the medical interests of a pregnant
:03:26. > :03:30.woman or her unborn child. That wording is just as contentious today
:03:31. > :03:37.as the day it was written. Abortion rights campaigners say the language
:03:38. > :03:41.smacks of 1960s paternalism, a "do knows best" attitude, saying women
:03:42. > :03:46.are incapable of making this decision in a serious way. We would
:03:47. > :03:49.say there is room for it to be extended so it trusts women to make
:03:50. > :03:54.the decision. At the moment women need to go to their doctor and get
:03:55. > :03:59.two doctors' signatures to sign off on a legal medical procedure. You
:04:00. > :04:04.don't need two doctors' signatures to go through brain surgery. We
:04:05. > :04:08.don't see why this is special. But special is exactly what this
:04:09. > :04:14.procedure is. It should be harder for women to get access to it, say
:04:15. > :04:18.those outraged and upset that nearly 200,000 women had abortions last
:04:19. > :04:23.year. I would like to see the law tightened so that we see a reduction
:04:24. > :04:29.in the number of abortions, certainly no more children being
:04:30. > :04:34.aborted for minor physical elements and certainly recognising that there
:04:35. > :04:38.have been scientific breakthroughs in antenatal care and neonatal care.
:04:39. > :04:43.We have to get the term limit down from 24 weeks at least to 22 weeks.
:04:44. > :04:48.What concerns people on both sides of the argument is the issue of
:04:49. > :04:53.gender selection. The idea that in some communities women are aborting
:04:54. > :04:55.girl foetuses. Until recently the Government said this wasn't
:04:56. > :04:58.happening in significant numbers. But research commissioned by the
:04:59. > :05:03.Independent Newspaper has forced the Department of Health to launch an
:05:04. > :05:10.investigation. The natural ratio of boys to girls means for every 100
:05:11. > :05:13.girls born there are about 105 boys born. But the independent found that
:05:14. > :05:17.the sex ratio of second born children in the UK was heavily
:05:18. > :05:21.boy-biased in the families of mothers born in Afghanistan and
:05:22. > :05:25.Pakistan. And this might be the case in families of mothers born in
:05:26. > :05:33.Bangladesh. They say the statistics suggest that there are between 1,400
:05:34. > :05:37.and 4,700 missing girls within all these ethnic groups living in
:05:38. > :05:42.England and Wales. My reaction to the independent report is neither of
:05:43. > :05:47.shock or surprise. But of deep disappointment. That this is still
:05:48. > :05:55.going on and it is not settling down. As far as the UK is concerned
:05:56. > :05:59.4,700 girls which are missing is a very significant number for a small
:06:00. > :06:03.country like the UK. I know of at least 12 families in the Midlands
:06:04. > :06:09.area who have been in touch with me, who have all of them actually
:06:10. > :06:13.travelled to India to get this sex selective abortion done. It is not
:06:14. > :06:16.hard to understand why it has been more than 20 years since the
:06:17. > :06:20.Abortion Act was last amended. It is not just Westminster that is
:06:21. > :06:27.nervous. So too are the campaigners. Worried that the other side might
:06:28. > :06:36.gain more from any new legislation. We have If you are is -- Anne Furedi
:06:37. > :06:39.is the chief executive of the Pregnancy Advisory Service and my
:06:40. > :06:43.other guest is with me. Does the legislation need updating? It has
:06:44. > :06:46.worked pretty well for the last 45 years but it definitely needs
:06:47. > :06:50.updating now. There is a big question about whether abortion
:06:51. > :06:57.needs to be covered by criminal legislation in this way. I mean
:06:58. > :07:00.really the best person to decide on whether she should continue a
:07:01. > :07:05.pregnancy is the woman herself. You would relax it, in effect? I think
:07:06. > :07:09.that it won better if abortion were removed from the criminal law. If
:07:10. > :07:15.women were able to make decisions, and indeed if the people who carried
:07:16. > :07:19.out abortions were the people who were clinically able to do them,
:07:20. > :07:25.that includes nurses as well as doctors. Clare Gerada, if a woman
:07:26. > :07:29.can have an abortion because she's expecting a girl and a girl isn't
:07:30. > :07:35.wanted, does that suggest to you there are flaws with the 1967 act? I
:07:36. > :07:40.think we need to separate out those two issues, and separate out a small
:07:41. > :07:44.minority who chose to abort a female foetus from the overall picture of
:07:45. > :07:48.making sure that women have good access to safe abortion. And
:07:49. > :07:54.actually I agree with Anne, I think we should look at the Abortion Act.
:07:55. > :07:58.There are many things that can be improved. For example women need two
:07:59. > :08:01.signatures on what is called "the blue form". When women have medical
:08:02. > :08:06.terminations, where they take a pill, they have to come back to the
:08:07. > :08:10.clinic two days later to collect the second pill and take the second pill
:08:11. > :08:15.on site, and end up then having to travel possibly even having the
:08:16. > :08:20.miscarriage on the tube or the bus going home. We need to separate out
:08:21. > :08:24.those two issues. Let me ask you specifically about the gender
:08:25. > :08:28.selection abortion, a minority but they are going on. It suggests that
:08:29. > :08:31.women are effectively having to lie about their reasons for having an
:08:32. > :08:36.abortion, because if they went to a clinic and said I want to abort this
:08:37. > :08:40.foetus because it is female, they would be denied an abortion, so they
:08:41. > :08:44.say there might be mental health problems? I'm in a woman, I wouldn't
:08:45. > :08:48.be in favour of aborting myself just because of gender. I have looked at
:08:49. > :08:52.those figure, the figures you have there, and the figures that the
:08:53. > :08:56.Independent printed today. It is not as clear-cut as it is. Actually
:08:57. > :09:01.there has always been more men than women, since figures first began in
:09:02. > :09:06.the 1930s. The ratio between women and men has actually dropped so
:09:07. > :09:11.whatever is happening it is not with losing lots of women, it is a very
:09:12. > :09:16.complex issue. But equally I would like to repeat, what we must make
:09:17. > :09:23.sure we do is give women timely and access to good and safe abortion.
:09:24. > :09:27.And also, as your piece said, better access to contraceptive advice, and
:09:28. > :09:33.better access to other ways to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. Anne Furedi,
:09:34. > :09:38.are you saying that nurses should be able to sign off abortions and that
:09:39. > :09:44.nurses should be able to carry out the procedure? What I'm saying is it
:09:45. > :09:52.is really time, I believe, for a review on where abortion sits in our
:09:53. > :09:56.lives and women do need abortion as, they need it as a back up to their
:09:57. > :10:00.contraception. Because contraception fails them and sometimes we fail to
:10:01. > :10:05.use it properly. That abortion should be able to be carried out by
:10:06. > :10:10.people who are clinically competent do it. Whether it is nurses, or
:10:11. > :10:16.indeed whether it is doctors. That women shouldn't have to demonstrate
:10:17. > :10:20.that they need grounds laid down by politicians, because that makes no
:10:21. > :10:25.sense, and I also really think that we should face up to the fact that
:10:26. > :10:29.women in the north of Ireland should have exactly the same access to
:10:30. > :10:35.abortion care as women in the rest of the UK. So society has really
:10:36. > :10:40.moved on and I think it is time that the Abortion Act moved on. So you
:10:41. > :10:43.really would want to see politicians, some of whom have very
:10:44. > :10:48.entrenched views on both sides, you would really want to see the Commons
:10:49. > :10:53.revisit the 1967 Abortion Act? What I believe very clearly is that if
:10:54. > :10:59.we're going to have fundamental change on this, then politicians
:11:00. > :11:04.will have to make that change. There is no way that it should be done
:11:05. > :11:08.through the back door. We're a democratic society, politicians
:11:09. > :11:13.should decide on our laws. But, no, I'm not worried about politicians
:11:14. > :11:18.opening this question up. Because I think the overwhelming majority of
:11:19. > :11:23.people in this country understand that abortion is a part of modern
:11:24. > :11:27.life. A regrettable part, perhaps, but a part nonetheless. Would you be
:11:28. > :11:32.worried about politicians revisiting it? I would be, they should and we
:11:33. > :11:35.need to review the act. But I would be very worried about going
:11:36. > :11:39.backwards, tightening up. You heard in the piece about using legislation
:11:40. > :11:44.to prevent women having terminations. Actually we need to be
:11:45. > :11:47.using education to prevent women needing terminations, not
:11:48. > :11:52.legislation to prevent women, once they have an unwanted pregnancy so
:11:53. > :11:55.like your piece I would be quite concerned about some of the views
:11:56. > :12:00.that some of our politicians hold, which would make it harder for women
:12:01. > :12:03.to have terminations. If there is a majority in the Commons? Listen, I
:12:04. > :12:10.have been a doctor for my entire life, with the Abortion Act in
:12:11. > :12:13.place, I have never had to work pre-1967 where women died because
:12:14. > :12:18.they couldn't access a safe termination. Women will die if they
:12:19. > :12:25.can't access safe terminations of pregnancy, I certainly don't want to
:12:26. > :12:29.see that happening. If you want to go back to see when
:12:30. > :12:33.the sun was this inactive in terms of the minimum we must have had and
:12:34. > :12:37.the peak we had, you have to go back 100 years.
:12:38. > :12:42.Ever since the Labour Party Conference last year Ed Miliband has
:12:43. > :12:46.been making hay on the cost of living. On a speech today on the
:12:47. > :12:51.cost of living he will seek to build that momentum, with a pitch to
:12:52. > :12:54.constrict the power of the banks. Today, George Osborne launched a
:12:55. > :13:00.pre-emptive attack, with an intervention on the minimum wage,
:13:01. > :13:04.that a decade would have had Tories choking on their morning cornflake,
:13:05. > :13:08.we will hear from Emily Maitlis in a second. First, this is what he said.
:13:09. > :13:11.Just as we were all in this together in the crisis, I want to make sure
:13:12. > :13:15.we're all in this together in the recovery. And because we're fixing
:13:16. > :13:19.the economy, because we're working through our plan, I believe Britain
:13:20. > :13:24.can afford an above inflation increase in the minimum wage. So we
:13:25. > :13:29.restore its real value for people and we make sure we have a recovery
:13:30. > :13:33.for all and that work always pays. It is quite interesting, isn't it,
:13:34. > :13:36.to hear the Chancellor saying those words, he wants to restore the real
:13:37. > :13:41.value of the minimum wage, which is dropped in real terms, we know,
:13:42. > :13:46.since 2008. I imagine the Lib Dems will be hopping mad to hear their
:13:47. > :13:51.language and words coming out of his mouth today. He's clearly at pains
:13:52. > :13:54.to make clear that because of his tough choices this is something
:13:55. > :13:58.Britain can now afford to do. Last week we had the ?12 billion of
:13:59. > :14:01.welfare cuts announced. This is George Osborne saying we haven't
:14:02. > :14:04.forgotten those at the bottom of the pile. We know we need to do
:14:05. > :14:10.something. The Tories very keen to try not to incur that "nasty party"
:14:11. > :14:15.rhetoric once again. What do we know about the wage, the level, he hasn't
:14:16. > :14:19.said what the rate s he has been careful to remind us it is set by an
:14:20. > :14:23.independent body, the Low Pay Commission. He said if it had
:14:24. > :14:31.followed inflation it would be ?7 an hour by 2015/16. That is a pretty
:14:32. > :14:38.strong hint. We know the minimum wage sits at ?6 an hour. That is
:14:39. > :14:41.Anne crease of maybe 10%. What is intriguing is the politics of the
:14:42. > :14:46.timing of it. I reported last week that there was a move on the minimum
:14:47. > :14:50.wage in the air. I don't think the timing, just the night before Ed
:14:51. > :14:53.Miliband's major speech on the economy. The first time we have seen
:14:54. > :15:06.the leader of the opposition this year was a coincidence. The
:15:07. > :15:11.Conservative Party years before was not on the prime minister page, but
:15:12. > :15:15.it is on the right page now, it has rescued the British economy from the
:15:16. > :15:18.brink of disaster and got us to a position where you can see the
:15:19. > :15:22.minimum wage going up for people. Of course, more broadly, I want to see
:15:23. > :15:27.living standards go up for the whole country as we fix the economy. That
:15:28. > :15:31.clip came a little early what that pre-empted, if you like, the fact
:15:32. > :15:34.that Labour said to me when the news broke, they were late to come to the
:15:35. > :15:39.party, and don't forget actually they opposed, the Tories opposed the
:15:40. > :15:46.minimum wage when it was first introduced in 1999. I was with the
:15:47. > :15:50.Labour insiders when the news broke, they were a little surprised, but
:15:51. > :15:54.their response was that Labour had established the minimum wage and
:15:55. > :15:57.they were keen to get that across. I mentioned Ed Miliband's speech
:15:58. > :16:01.tomorrow, on Tuesday we broke the news that he was implementing
:16:02. > :16:06.radical reforms if he gets in touch with the banking sector. We have had
:16:07. > :16:10.confirmation on what that would mean. Ed Miliband we understand
:16:11. > :16:14.would say he wants to see two new challenger banks come into the
:16:15. > :16:17.market. They would have at least 6% market share over the course of the
:16:18. > :16:21.next five-year parliament. Who will ask the new competitions and
:16:22. > :16:26.markets' authority just set up, to set a maximum threshold for the
:16:27. > :16:30.future market share of any bank, any big bank, which would limit the size
:16:31. > :16:33.to which they are able to grow, if they bust that level there would be
:16:34. > :16:38.an investigation. That means nearly all the big banks would be broken up
:16:39. > :16:43.in some shape. They would have to sell off branches and that could in
:16:44. > :16:46.turn jeopardise plans to privatise RBS again, because there could be
:16:47. > :16:50.too much uncertainty surrounding its value. They are calling this,
:16:51. > :16:54.Labour, the new economy, they say they will taken every broken market.
:16:55. > :16:58.We don't know what that means. They are paving the way more. They were
:16:59. > :17:02.critical of Mark Carney's comments on these proposal. They said he
:17:03. > :17:05.needs to be careful not to be overtly political. They said they
:17:06. > :17:10.were rather surprised he had commented on proposals in a speech
:17:11. > :17:14.that he couldn't possibly have heard because it hadn't yet been made. But
:17:15. > :17:19.the overall thrust, if you like, of that Labour message was a warning to
:17:20. > :17:21.the Government, and we can see some of what Ed Miliband's going to say
:17:22. > :17:43.tomorrow. This was written, don't forget,
:17:44. > :17:46.before we heard the announcement from George Osborne on the proposed
:17:47. > :17:50.increase to the minimum wage. And when I asked Labour if the speech
:17:51. > :17:56.would be rewritten at all as a result of this, they told me that Ed
:17:57. > :18:00.Miliband had learned it off by heart and it was very unlikely he would
:18:01. > :18:06.actually be changing it, but there will be a Q session. Let's talk to
:18:07. > :18:09.the Business Secretary. How significant is this intervention
:18:10. > :18:14.from George Osborne on the minimum wage today? I'm pleased with it. He
:18:15. > :18:19.has effectively en dorsed the guidance I gave to the Low Pay
:18:20. > :18:22.Commission, in fact I announced it at the Lib Dem conference in
:18:23. > :18:26.September last, we wanted the low-pay commission to proceed. In
:18:27. > :18:30.other words to increase the minimum wage, reflecting the fact that we
:18:31. > :18:35.got a recovery, to restore its real value. Did you know he was going to
:18:36. > :18:38.say this today? I didn't, but he did contribute a letter which formed
:18:39. > :18:42.part of the evidence that I put forward to the Low Pay Commission.
:18:43. > :18:47.When you heard him say this, were you surprised? Yes, I was a little
:18:48. > :18:51.surprised. As I say I'm not taken aback by it, imitation is the best
:18:52. > :18:55.form of flattery. When you have the Chancellor backing the policy I have
:18:56. > :18:58.gone out and endorsed, I'm rather pleased. You will be, as Business
:18:59. > :19:02.Secretary, it will be your final decision, it would be polite to
:19:03. > :19:06.inform you today? He wrote to me yesterday, and he set out his views
:19:07. > :19:09.on it and formed part of the package of Government evidence to the Low
:19:10. > :19:15.Pay Commission. You are right, this does come to me and I will decide on
:19:16. > :19:20.it, traditionally the Secretary of State accepts the views of the Low
:19:21. > :19:26.Pay Commission. It is important, this whole thing has become very
:19:27. > :19:32.politicised, we recognise it is nonpolitical, nonpartisan, it is
:19:33. > :19:36.employers views' and they have to be respected. Do you wonder perhaps if
:19:37. > :19:41.George Osborne is using what he said today to change people's perceptions
:19:42. > :19:46.of the Conservative Party. Having cut the top rate of income tax? I
:19:47. > :19:50.don't know what his motives are. You talk to him, you sit in cabinet
:19:51. > :19:54.meetings with him? He has come to the right place. I think it is
:19:55. > :19:58.important that we focus on the fairness agenda. As your comments a
:19:59. > :20:03.few moments ago. There is a sense of people have been through a very hard
:20:04. > :20:06.time, we have to concentrate on the people at the bottom end of the
:20:07. > :20:09.scale. The Liberal Democrats lift people out of tax and we got this
:20:10. > :20:14.approach to the minimum wage. We also deal with the inequalities at
:20:15. > :20:18.the top, that is why we want to tax wealth as well. I'm glad George
:20:19. > :20:21.Osborne is aligned with us on the minimum wage approach. Why has it
:20:22. > :20:25.taken two years. You say it is really important to help people on
:20:26. > :20:28.low incomes, you talked about raising the threshold. Why have you
:20:29. > :20:32.done nothing on the minimum wage since you have been in Government?
:20:33. > :20:35.Because that's not been the recommendation of the Low Pay
:20:36. > :20:39.Commission. We have actually increased it, but you know their
:20:40. > :20:43.concern throughout has been you don't want to increase wages in way
:20:44. > :20:47.that creates large scale unemployment. That is their remit
:20:48. > :20:51.and that is the way they interpret it. Their recommendations have been
:20:52. > :20:56.that we should increase the minimum wage but not displace employment.
:20:57. > :21:00.One of the big suck stories, and it has been a stuff time. The British
:21:01. > :21:06.economy has taken a bounding as a result of the financial crisis, but
:21:07. > :21:10.employment has held up. 1. 3 million more jobs. Unemployment has fallen
:21:11. > :21:14.to 7. 4%, it is lower than in France and Sweden and other countries. We
:21:15. > :21:18.don't want to spoil that story. We want jobs to continue to grow.
:21:19. > :21:22.And when you have tried to persuade George Osborne of the merits of
:21:23. > :21:27.increasing the minimum wage in the past, what has he said to you? I
:21:28. > :21:32.don't think he fundamentally disagrees, he is concerned, as I am,
:21:33. > :21:36.and indeed the Low Pay Commission, that we approach this in a way that
:21:37. > :21:40.we want to help people on low earnings, but we don't want to have
:21:41. > :21:43.adverse effects on the economy. The guidance I gave to the Low Pay
:21:44. > :21:48.Commission asked them to look at this in a more holistic way. And to
:21:49. > :21:52.look at the wider economic effects, take account of the fact the economy
:21:53. > :21:56.is now recovering. Giving an incentive for people to work. The
:21:57. > :21:58.time is right now? To be more positive. They have to make the
:21:59. > :22:04.decision, they are an independent body. They make the recommendations,
:22:05. > :22:09.as you have already said, it is your final call. Is it right you can be
:22:10. > :22:16.so generous with business's money? That is not the way we see it.
:22:17. > :22:18.Businesses are represented on the Low Pay Commission. That is why we
:22:19. > :22:21.have to be responsible. I don't think any previous Secretary of
:22:22. > :22:26.State has challenged the basic recommendation of the Low Pay
:22:27. > :22:29.Commission. I did last year over the apprenticeship wage, but there was
:22:30. > :22:33.an issue of principle there. We recognise that passing the costsen
:22:34. > :22:40.to business is not right. Because they would in turn pass it on to
:22:41. > :22:43.consumers. The CPBI, the British Chambers of Commerce, the Federation
:22:44. > :22:46.of Small Business, they are a lot more cautious than you and the
:22:47. > :22:51.Chancellor? I'm beg very cautious, and the guidance I have again to the
:22:52. > :22:55.Low Pay Commission, is we do want to see increases in low pay. We want to
:22:56. > :22:58.have real improvement, but it has to take account of the effects on
:22:59. > :23:04.employment and the wider economy. That, of course, involves business
:23:05. > :23:10.profitability. Let me ask you about Ed Miliband's plans for reforming
:23:11. > :23:13.the banks what do you think? There are certain elements I agree with,
:23:14. > :23:16.we need more competition, particularly in business banking.
:23:17. > :23:20.Many of the things he's calling for have actually happened. Two new
:23:21. > :23:27.banks have been created out of RBS and Lloyd's. Williams and Glynn,
:23:28. > :23:33.TSB, carved out and up and running. I have established something called
:23:34. > :23:39.The Business Bank, Government Finance, it is supporting new
:23:40. > :23:41.companies, internet-based crowd funding. What is called peer-to-peer
:23:42. > :23:46.lending, that is happening on a rapid scale. We are getting more
:23:47. > :23:50.competition. What his proposals don't clearly indicate is exactly
:23:51. > :23:55.what kind of bank is he trying to create. There is lots of competition
:23:56. > :23:59.for mortgages, it is not a problem. There the real problem is for small
:24:00. > :24:03.business, we are taking action on that already. I do agree with him,
:24:04. > :24:06.we want to make more competition. We have been badly served by the banks
:24:07. > :24:10.in the past. You would expect me to ask about Lord Rennard. Would you
:24:11. > :24:16.like to see him removed from the party? Well, I think there is a lot
:24:17. > :24:21.of frustration after this very strong report that came yesterday
:24:22. > :24:25.that the party's rules don't permit that action. But what has happened
:24:26. > :24:29.is the party leader, Nick Clegg, and the President, Tim Farron are now
:24:30. > :24:33.discussing this closely and seeing how we can proceed and whether you
:24:34. > :24:37.are rules need revisiting. Would you like to see him removed? I think I
:24:38. > :24:40.would rather leave it to them. They are the key decision makers in the
:24:41. > :24:44.party. They have to operate within the rules. I don't want to add an
:24:45. > :24:55.independent view to that. Thank you very much.
:24:56. > :24:59.20 lashes for being gay. Another vivid example of what can happen to
:25:00. > :25:05.gay people in parts of Africa. This particular punishment was in
:25:06. > :25:08.Nigeria, where a few weeks ago the Government quietly signed
:25:09. > :25:12.anti-homosexuality legislation. Which means long jail sentences for
:25:13. > :25:16.same-sex couples, and even for going to a gay club. You might say that is
:25:17. > :25:22.a matter for them. But David Cameron wants justified the amount of aid
:25:23. > :25:28.Britain gives to Nigeria by saying he would use it to influence
:25:29. > :25:34.same-sex policies there. The bill was signed into law quietly earlier
:25:35. > :25:39.this month without fanfare or announcement. When the news came out
:25:40. > :25:44.this week it was relegated to a small corner of the national press.
:25:45. > :25:50.But it is a piece of legislation that will have a huge impact on the
:25:51. > :25:55.lives of gay people in Nigeria. Gay sex is already illegal, but this act
:25:56. > :25:59.goes further. It recommends prison sentences of up to 14 years for
:26:00. > :26:03.same-sex couples. Public displays of affection or even going to a gay
:26:04. > :26:10.club could land you in jail for a decade. It is a populist and almost
:26:11. > :26:13.universally popular move from a President under intense political
:26:14. > :26:23.pressure at home, and facing re-election next year. We don't want
:26:24. > :26:29.something in our country, I'm so happy that they signed against it.
:26:30. > :26:32.It is better we have such law in place that we have situation where
:26:33. > :26:37.is people would take the law into their own hands on account of saying
:26:38. > :26:47.someone is suspected to be a homosexual, and then jungle justice
:26:48. > :26:51.pertains. Since the announcement of the signing of the bill dozens of
:26:52. > :26:55.people have been arrested in this staunchly religious and conservative
:26:56. > :26:59.country the The police will arrest people and go through their
:27:00. > :27:04.telephone and ask them to identify who is gay on their telephone
:27:05. > :27:08.number, get the number and give this person a call and invite them over,
:27:09. > :27:15.they go to the police station and get arrested and the system goes on.
:27:16. > :27:21.This man, who fled to the UK in 2007 after coming out live on Nigerian
:27:22. > :27:26.TV, says he and his family have been receiving death threats on social
:27:27. > :27:30.networking sites. Where mob justice is bigger than anywhere in the
:27:31. > :27:37.world, I fear for my family and friends and I fear for every
:27:38. > :27:43.ordinary lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgender people in Nigeria.
:27:44. > :27:48.Being gay in Nigeria isn't easy. In a recent poll 98% of respondents
:27:49. > :27:53.said homosexuality was unacceptable in society. Meetings are held in
:27:54. > :28:00.secret, activists must conceal their identities. Nigeria is Africa's most
:28:01. > :28:03.populist country. Despite its vast oil wealth, it is also one of the
:28:04. > :28:12.continent's poorest. Where more than half the population survive on less
:28:13. > :28:26.than ?1 day. British aid to Nigeria has almost doubled in five years. In
:28:27. > :28:31.2010/11 D -- DFID gave: Nigeria is one of many African
:28:32. > :28:35.states with antigay legislation on the statute books. Consensual
:28:36. > :28:39.same-sex relationships are illegal in around two thirds of countries on
:28:40. > :28:45.the continent. They include Ethiopia, which last year received
:28:46. > :28:51.over ?261 from DFID. Tanzania at ?150, and south sudden Saab at just
:28:52. > :28:55.under ?110 million are amongst the top recipients of UK aid money. In
:28:56. > :29:00.2011 David Cameron said Britain would use aid to try to influence
:29:01. > :29:04.Government policy on same-sex relationships in countries like
:29:05. > :29:07.Nigeria. Britain is now one of the premier aid givers in the world,
:29:08. > :29:11.saying that our aid actually, we want to see countries that receive
:29:12. > :29:19.our aid adhering to proper human rights. That includes how people
:29:20. > :29:22.treat gay and lesbian people. The Foreign Secretary said he was
:29:23. > :29:29.disappointed with the signing of the bill, and that Britain frequently
:29:30. > :29:33.raises its concerns both with Nigeria and other countries. Clearly
:29:34. > :29:38.the aid money has continued to be forth coming. Some activists say
:29:39. > :29:42.British policy of public rebukes and saber-rattling over aid is both
:29:43. > :29:50.ineffectual and counter-productive. We can see the backlash from that in
:29:51. > :29:55.nigh goria, Uganda, Zimbabwe and Zambia, all over Africa. Africa
:29:56. > :29:59.standing up and saying Britain you are coming back to colonise us with
:30:00. > :30:06.your money, take it away. After David Cameron made the statement
:30:07. > :30:12.about the conditions attached to LGBT rights I wrote to the Foreign
:30:13. > :30:15.Office, using the Freedom of Information Act, asking for
:30:16. > :30:20.Britain's investment in LGBT organisations. No investment
:30:21. > :30:25.atsoever. Britain's ?10 billion foreign aid budget is meant, in
:30:26. > :30:28.part, to project soft power abroad. Nigerians both in the gay community
:30:29. > :30:35.and in Government could be forgiven for thinking that all the tough talk
:30:36. > :30:38.doesn't really mean very much. We approached the Foreign Office, the
:30:39. > :30:41.Department for International Development, and the Ministry of
:30:42. > :30:48.Justice for a minister to talk about this, but we were told that no-one
:30:49. > :30:51.was available. As far as news stories go, you might think there
:30:52. > :30:59.couldn't be two as different as the recent political earthquakes in the
:31:00. > :31:07.Middle East, and the Hollywood Tinseltown. Two films with these
:31:08. > :31:16.political uprisings have been nominated. A documentary about
:31:17. > :31:26.Tahrir Square is up for nomination for best foreign film. And Camara
:31:27. > :31:33.has no Wall is up for best short documentary. We did this to remove
:31:34. > :31:47.him and put someone exactly like him in his place.
:31:48. > :31:50.The army has killed us and tortured us and the people out there know
:31:51. > :32:35.that. With me now from New York are my
:32:36. > :32:40.guests. Congratulations first of all, tell us what is it about the
:32:41. > :32:46.Arab Spring that was so inspiring to you as a film maker? Well I'm
:32:47. > :32:50.Egyptian, I grew up about ten minutes from Tahrir Square. And the
:32:51. > :32:56.square really gave birth to this film, Tahrir Square. In t square I
:32:57. > :32:59.met an incredible group of film makers, Egyptian film makers, it was
:33:00. > :33:03.a great collaboration. And I met characters that inspired me, that
:33:04. > :33:07.were fighting for human rights and social justice, a universal
:33:08. > :33:13.struggle. And have spent the last three years and are still on the
:33:14. > :33:15.ground fighting. And they are incredibly inspiring people, people
:33:16. > :33:20.that will put everything they have on the line to fight for what they
:33:21. > :33:25.believe in. And they taught me a great deal about courage and bravery
:33:26. > :33:28.and so this film I see and this uprising that we followed is really
:33:29. > :33:33.about the courage and beauty of the Egyptian people. And it has changed
:33:34. > :33:38.me forever, actually, the process of making it. I will ask you about that
:33:39. > :33:45.in a minute. I want to say congratulations to Sarah as well in
:33:46. > :33:51.Cairo. What inspired you with your film? I was there when the
:33:52. > :33:57.revolution began and I spent quite a bit of time in the square with
:33:58. > :34:03.cameramen and with people in the field hospital before it became
:34:04. > :34:08.violent. What inspired me was similar to Jihan was the bravery of
:34:09. > :34:12.the young men who put themselves at risk on the front lines. I went back
:34:13. > :34:20.the following day, even after witnessing you know the brutality of
:34:21. > :34:24.the regime, witnessing death and young men as well. I felt as a film
:34:25. > :34:29.maker and someone who had the means to put their message across to the
:34:30. > :34:36.world, that I should in some way facilitate that for them and with
:34:37. > :34:43.them. It was really inspiring to be in the midst of such bravery. Why
:34:44. > :34:49.don't you tell us why you say your life has been changed forever on
:34:50. > :34:54.making your film? Well I have spent great deal of time in Egypt and the
:34:55. > :34:59.States. The US is a place known for its people power, of the uprising of
:35:00. > :35:03.the 1960s and I marched against the Iraq and Afghanistan war, it was
:35:04. > :35:06.depressing to see nothing be affected by those marches. I have to
:35:07. > :35:13.say when I went down to the square in Egypt, I had made a film in 2007
:35:14. > :35:19.about women who were might fighting for political change, most of it
:35:20. > :35:22.ended with people being jailed and cameras smashed and everything. When
:35:23. > :35:26.they managed to bring down a President of 30 years, a dictator of
:35:27. > :35:31.30 years, my complete understanding of possibility changed. I think when
:35:32. > :35:37.that happens to you and you see the determined nature of people and this
:35:38. > :35:42.adamant nature of this, that people, sticking to their principles against
:35:43. > :35:46.all odds, your understanding of yourself changes. It is not only a
:35:47. > :35:50.revolution on the outside. It is a revolution on the inside. When you
:35:51. > :35:53.experience that magic, the hope is to be able to share that with the
:35:54. > :36:00.rest of the world. That's why we made a film. Sarah, it was mentioned
:36:01. > :36:03.the possibilities that emerged from the Arab Spring, very much seen as
:36:04. > :36:08.an opportunity for women to have a voice. When women were often
:36:09. > :36:15.marginalised. I wonder if you think things have changed permanentry when
:36:16. > :36:20.it comes to women's rights? Women did take a very significant stance
:36:21. > :36:28.during the revolution and they have been recognised since then as well
:36:29. > :36:33.in some very prominent roles in relation to the Nobel Peace Prize,
:36:34. > :36:40.journalists and within media. I think what it has done is set a
:36:41. > :36:44.precedent and women have set an example. Politically I don't think
:36:45. > :36:49.that much has changed. There hasn't really been progress in that regard.
:36:50. > :37:01.But on a social level I think doors have been opened. Women are
:37:02. > :37:07.definitely more inspired. I think they are able to break free from the
:37:08. > :37:10.shackles of society and politics as well and really take part in a more
:37:11. > :37:19.effective manner. So in that respect I think things have changed. There
:37:20. > :37:24.are a number of people in west who look at Egypt and say not that much
:37:25. > :37:28.has changed, what would you say to them? I would say it took 16 years
:37:29. > :37:31.between the revolution and the constitution writing in the United
:37:32. > :37:36.States. We have had three. These processes take a long time. There
:37:37. > :37:44.are people that are still on the ground every single day fighting for
:37:45. > :37:48.change. One incredible woman got me out of prison a couple of times, and
:37:49. > :37:51.is in the courthouses getting people out of prison every day is on the
:37:52. > :37:56.forefront of that change and many others. The change doesn't only
:37:57. > :37:59.happen on the political level, but on other levels, the cultural
:38:00. > :38:05.levels, the explosion of art and poetry. Writing on walls, all of
:38:06. > :38:08.this is changing th culture. And that's very significant and if you
:38:09. > :38:11.think about the civil rights movement for example, there was a
:38:12. > :38:15.consciousness change, people would never put up the kinds of actions
:38:16. > :38:19.that happened after the civil rights movement as they did before the
:38:20. > :38:23.civil rights movement. I believe a consciousness has changed and is
:38:24. > :38:29.changing in Egypt as we speak. Thank you very much both of you, good
:38:30. > :38:33.luck. Scientist say we're in the middle of a solar lull. The sun's
:38:34. > :38:39.fallen asleep, effectively, and it is baffling them. History suggests
:38:40. > :38:43.that periods of unusual solar lull coincide with bitterly cold winters
:38:44. > :38:48.what effect could this current inactivity have on our climate this
:38:49. > :38:57.time round. What are the implications for global warming. We
:38:58. > :39:02.have this report. The wonder of the Northern Lights. Reminds us of the
:39:03. > :39:11.intimate connection we have with our star. This happens when solar winds
:39:12. > :39:17.hit the earth's upper atmosphere. But many of these displays may soon
:39:18. > :39:23.vanish. Something is happening to the solar activity on the surface of
:39:24. > :39:27.the sun. It is ng, fast. Whatever measure you use it is coming down,
:39:28. > :39:31.the solar peaks are coming down. For example with the flares, it looks
:39:32. > :39:35.very, very significant. The solar cycles are now getting smaller and
:39:36. > :39:46.smaller, the activity is getting less and less. There is a vast range
:39:47. > :39:53.of solar activity. Sunspots, intensely magnetic areas, seen as
:39:54. > :39:58.dark spots on the sun's surface, the UVA lights reflect towards the
:39:59. > :40:05.earth, and flares erupt violently and tonnes of charged particles go
:40:06. > :40:11.into place. It rises and falls in cycles over 11 years, now we are at
:40:12. > :40:21.a peak. The solar maximum. This is eerily quiet. I have been a solar
:40:22. > :40:26.physicist for 40 years, I have never seen something anything quite like.
:40:27. > :40:30.To go back to see a similar minimum you have to go back 100 years. It is
:40:31. > :40:35.not something I have seen in my lifetime or a couple of generations
:40:36. > :40:40.before them have seen. The number of sunspots is a fraction of what
:40:41. > :40:48.scientists expected. Solar flares are half. This man is head of the
:40:49. > :40:54.lab in Oxfordshire. He says the rate it is falling mirrors a period in
:40:55. > :40:59.the 17th century where sunspots disappear. It was a period of nearly
:41:00. > :41:03.no sunspots for decades. We saw a really dramatic period where there
:41:04. > :41:08.was very cold winters in the Northern Hemisphere. You had a
:41:09. > :41:13.mini-Ice Age. You had a period where the Thames froze in the winter, it
:41:14. > :41:19.was an interesting time. Rivers and canals froze across northern Europe.
:41:20. > :41:25.Paintings from the 17th century show frost fairs taking place on the
:41:26. > :41:29.Thames. During the great frost of 1684 the river froze over for two
:41:30. > :41:48.months. The ice was almost a foot thick. The astronomer who observed
:41:49. > :41:53.the steep decline in solar activity. The Monza minimum came when the sea
:41:54. > :41:57.froze over and crop failures were widespread across northern Europe.
:41:58. > :42:01.Does a decline in solar activity mean plunging temperatures for
:42:02. > :42:07.decades to come. We have been making observations of sunspots, the most
:42:08. > :42:11.obvious sign of solar activity from 1609 and on wards, we have hundreds
:42:12. > :42:16.of years of observations. The sun seems in a similar phase as it was
:42:17. > :42:20.in the run up before. I mean the activity is dropping off, cycle by
:42:21. > :42:25.cycle. Lucy Green is based at the science laboratory in the North
:42:26. > :42:30.Downs, she thinks that lower levels of solar activity could effect the
:42:31. > :42:33.climate. She's not sure to what extent. It is a very complex area,
:42:34. > :42:39.because the sun's activity controls how much visible light the sun gives
:42:40. > :42:45.out, but also how much ultraviolet light and X-rays that the sun
:42:46. > :42:49.submits. They create a web of changes in the earth's atmosphere,
:42:50. > :42:57.and producing effects we don't fully understand. Some researchers have
:42:58. > :43:02.gone way further back in time, locked into the ice sheets are
:43:03. > :43:11.particles once in the upper atmosphere, particles that show
:43:12. > :43:18.variations in solar activity. Mike Lockwood's work suggests this is the
:43:19. > :43:22.fastest rate of solar decline for 20,000 years. When we look at the
:43:23. > :43:27.record we can say what has the sun gone on to do, based on that and the
:43:28. > :43:35.current state of decline, we estimate ho 40 years from now, there
:43:36. > :43:40.is a 20% probability that we will be back in the early conditions by that
:43:41. > :43:47.time. Less solar activity means a drop in ultraviolet radiation. Mike
:43:48. > :43:52.Lockwood says this seems to affect the behaviour of the jet stream. It
:43:53. > :43:57.changes its pattern and ends up blocking warm air from reaching
:43:58. > :44:03.northern Europe. It causes long, cold, winters, but what about
:44:04. > :44:10.tempures as a whole? One has to make a separation between winter cold
:44:11. > :44:16.claimate. If we get something happening it is warmer than England.
:44:17. > :44:20.The average is change. It is a redistribution of temperature around
:44:21. > :44:25.the North Atlantic. The relationship between solar activity and weather
:44:26. > :44:29.on earth is complicated. If solar activity continues to fall, could
:44:30. > :44:36.the temperature on earth as a whole get cooler? Could there be
:44:37. > :44:41.implications for global warning? The world we live in today is very
:44:42. > :44:46.different from the Monde Minute yum, we have had the Industrial
:44:47. > :44:50.Revolution, and all kinds of gases being put in. On the one hand you
:44:51. > :44:54.have a cooling sun and on the other hand you have human activity that
:44:55. > :44:57.can counter that. It is difficult to say how these two are going to
:44:58. > :45:09.compete and what the consequences are then for the global climb plate.
:45:10. > :45:15.So even if the planet as a whole continues to wall, if we enter
:45:16. > :45:21.another Ice Age the future to be frozen winters for decades to come.
:45:22. > :45:23.And we don't even have bountiful displays of the Northern Lights to
:45:24. > :45:28.cheer us up. That's all from us tonight. We
:45:29. > :45:34.learned today that the actor, Roger Lloyd Pack died last night. He was
:45:35. > :45:40.69. Dramatic actor, nevertheless found game with his character in
:45:41. > :45:47.Only Fools And Horses. Trigger was a road sweeper by trade, and gave a
:45:48. > :45:53.modern name to an old paradox, "trigger's objects". Is a product
:45:54. > :45:57.with everything replaced still the same project. If you have had the
:45:58. > :46:04.broom for 20 years, have you actually swept any roads with it? Of
:46:05. > :46:09.course, but I look after it well. We have an old saying handed down by
:46:10. > :46:14.generations of road sweepers, look after your broom... . And let your
:46:15. > :46:23.broom look after you? No Dave it is just look after your broom. That old
:46:24. > :46:29.saying. That is what I have done, I have maintained it for 20 years.
:46:30. > :46:40.This old broom has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time. How
:46:41. > :46:44.the hell can it be the same bloody broom thenment Here is a picture of
:46:45. > :47:05.it, what more proof do you need. MIT The showers coming down and more
:47:06. > :47:06.sunshine. Fog in