:00:18. > :00:20.She has no intention of leaving America. What happens next? We have
:00:21. > :00:27.a new interview with her as she awaited the verdict. I am I'm
:00:28. > :00:31.definitely going back willingly. They will have to catch me and pull
:00:32. > :00:35.me back kicking and screaming into a prison I don't deserve to be in.
:00:36. > :00:39.It has dominated the headlines but is the cost of living crisis over.
:00:40. > :00:43.We have new figures released in the last few minutes, and some guests to
:00:44. > :00:47.crunch the numbers. The Republican President, Roosevelt
:00:48. > :00:54.was a hero to many, and still is to Ed Miliband. Why do British MPs have
:00:55. > :01:00.American Idols? We will ask Roosevelt's biographer.
:01:01. > :01:04.The President of the Ukraine has gone sick, leaving the ragtag of
:01:05. > :01:09.protestors. At the crucial moment in Ukraine's
:01:10. > :01:16.history everyone is asking the same question, is thehead of state sick
:01:17. > :01:19.or has there been a coup. In an exclusive Newsnight interview we
:01:20. > :01:27.speak to one of the people supposed to be in charge.
:01:28. > :01:31.Good evenings, once again Amanda Knox and herit Italian former
:01:32. > :01:36.boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, have been found guilty of the you are
:01:37. > :01:44.inneder of -- murder of Meredith Kercher. The Appeal Court upheld
:01:45. > :01:50.convictions that were overturned in 2011. Since then she has been in the
:01:51. > :01:59.US where she is now in Seattle. Tonight she said she was frightened
:02:00. > :02:01.and saddened by the unjust verdict. Meredith Kercher's brother and
:02:02. > :02:06.sister were in court again today for the latest round in the battle for
:02:07. > :02:11.justice. Italian national, Raffaele Sollecito, originally accused of her
:02:12. > :02:14.killing was in court for retry his former codefendant, US citizen,
:02:15. > :02:27.Amanda Knox, did not return to the country. In 2007, 21-year-old
:02:28. > :02:33.Meredith was found dead at her flat with 46 stab wounds. The pair were
:02:34. > :02:38.the next day and prosecuted, prosecutors tried to prove Meredith
:02:39. > :02:43.had died in a sex game gone wrong. Rudy Guede was sentenced to 16 years
:02:44. > :02:47.in prison for the murder in a separate trial. Defendants are
:02:48. > :02:52.acquitted. The convictions against Knox and Sollecito was overturned
:02:53. > :02:56.after concerns were raised about procedures used to gather DNA
:02:57. > :03:02.evidence. But last year the Supreme Court quashed the acquittals citing
:03:03. > :03:06.inconsistencies in the case. Whether or not Knox and Sollecito will
:03:07. > :03:10.appeal the decision, or whether Knox will be extradited from the US. The
:03:11. > :03:13.Kercher family can only hope at last they are closer to finding out the
:03:14. > :03:18.truth about what happened to Meredith. The Guardian secured
:03:19. > :03:26.access to Amanda Knox as she awaited the verdict of the retrial. With her
:03:27. > :03:29.heart in her throat, she said. A lot of the times when I'm interacting
:03:30. > :03:36.with somebody and they don't recognise me immediately and they
:03:37. > :03:41.ask me questions, hair, so what major are you, a creative writing
:03:42. > :03:45.major. They are asking am I senior or freshman. And I'm like a senior.
:03:46. > :03:48.They are like how old are you, 26, what have you been doing to take so
:03:49. > :03:53.long, I'm like I was studying abroad. Really where were you
:03:54. > :03:58.studying abroad in Italy, that must have been awesome, I'm like ahhhh,
:03:59. > :04:03.explain, and it's like, I was in prison. How close do you think the
:04:04. > :04:11.Amanda from the tabloid, or the British tabloids in particular was
:04:12. > :04:20.to you? There was this portrayal of me as being sex obsessed and drug
:04:21. > :04:28.addled and a manipulator and a liar. Being in this complete criminal
:04:29. > :04:34.control of myself and other people. That is absolutely foreign to
:04:35. > :04:40.everything that I am. If I was a stranger coming to you and saying, I
:04:41. > :04:43.know you, you're Amanda Knox, you murdered Meredith Kercher, what
:04:44. > :04:48.would you the two facts that you would tell me that make it
:04:49. > :04:52.impossible for you to have committed that crime? Meredith was my friend,
:04:53. > :04:56.and I would never have done anything like that, no history of crime. It
:04:57. > :05:01.is just not me. And two there is no trace of me in that room. So how
:05:02. > :05:05.would I have committed it? You cannot commit a murder and then like
:05:06. > :05:08.have all of this evidence, all of this blood everywhere, all of the
:05:09. > :05:14.evidence of the person who did it and that not be me, and then say,
:05:15. > :05:18.yeah I was the one who plunged the knife, it is literally impossible.
:05:19. > :05:32.What would it mean to you if you were found guilty. Well, it would
:05:33. > :05:38.feel like a train wreck. There is not a lot I can do after this
:05:39. > :05:42.appeal. They would order my arrest and the Italian Government would
:05:43. > :05:51.approach the American Government and say extradite her. And I don't know
:05:52. > :06:00.what would happen. I'm still counting on an acquittal. I don't
:06:01. > :06:06.know if this story is out, I think it is, you said if they ask for you
:06:07. > :06:11.to return, if you are found guilty you're not going back there? I'm not
:06:12. > :06:17.willingly going back, no. I'm not going to... The quote was "I will
:06:18. > :06:25.he' be a fugutive". What I said was I will technically be considered a
:06:26. > :06:29.fugutive. I don't know what I'm going to do. I won't go willingly,
:06:30. > :06:33.they will have to catch me and pull me back, kicking and screaming into
:06:34. > :06:40.a prison that I don't deserve to be in. Amanda's friend, Madison moved
:06:41. > :06:45.to Perugia to support her when she was in prison. I'm on my way to see
:06:46. > :06:51.both of them in Amanda's flat. I want to see her with someone she
:06:52. > :06:55.trusts. At any point in that first interrogation think you needed a
:06:56. > :07:00.lawyer? I asked them if I needed lawyer, because I didn't understand
:07:01. > :07:07.if they were having a problem with me or if they were, like, they made
:07:08. > :07:12.it seem like they knew that I had witnessed the murder and that I knew
:07:13. > :07:21.who the murderer was, and I just needed to tell them. I was either
:07:22. > :07:29.lying or I had -- amnesia, I wasn't lying, I started to believe I had
:07:30. > :07:33.amnesia, otherwise I couldn't believe what was happening to me.
:07:34. > :07:39.What was it like? It is a very specific process of how it worked. I
:07:40. > :07:42.knew what I did that night, I remembered it, I was with Raffaele
:07:43. > :07:45.Sollecito, we had dinner, we did what we always do on all the nights
:07:46. > :07:48.together. Then they started questioning me about that and making
:07:49. > :07:53.me doubt what I was telling them. They said OK if you had dinner at
:07:54. > :07:58.this time, what were you doing at this time and so between seven and
:07:59. > :08:02.eight you are doing this what about between eight and nine, and what
:08:03. > :08:06.about between nine and ten. And when you have, I kept telling them, look
:08:07. > :08:15.I don't know what time I was doing things, all I can tell you is I left
:08:16. > :08:19.my house, me and afael went to his house, we were hanging out and
:08:20. > :08:24.listening to music, I remember reading e-mail, we talked, we ate
:08:25. > :08:30.dinner, that is what we z I am a telling you this. They made it seem
:08:31. > :08:34.because I couldn't chronologically put everything in order in time made
:08:35. > :08:39.it seem like I had something wrong with my memory. They said if you
:08:40. > :08:42.can't remember what happened then there is something wrong with you
:08:43. > :08:46.and you are lying, and we know that you are lying. They told me Rafael
:08:47. > :08:52.said I wasn't. There that completely threw me off, I couldn't understand
:08:53. > :08:56.why he would say that? Which also wasn't true. When I named Patrick is
:08:57. > :09:02.when I finally just broke, I thought oh my God it must be true what I'm
:09:03. > :09:06.saying, that I'm traumatised and I experienced whatever it is that it
:09:07. > :09:11.is, I must have witnessed my friend's murder some how, and I'm
:09:12. > :09:15.scared and all of a sudden like that idea, it was already bad enough when
:09:16. > :09:19.I had to go into the house and they asked me to identify knives that
:09:20. > :09:23.could have killed her. And then all of a sudden the idea that I must
:09:24. > :09:27.have witnessed it and now I'm traumatised enough to not even
:09:28. > :09:34.remember it. To all of a sudden be drawn into this horrible idea of
:09:35. > :09:40.what happened was so completely overwhelming that I just wept for I
:09:41. > :09:43.don't know how long, I was delirious. It was only after they
:09:44. > :09:47.had all left and rushed off and there was only one of them kind of
:09:48. > :09:55.sitting there, eyeing me, making sure that I didn't do anything. I
:09:56. > :10:01.was sitting there a long time and thinking, trying to make sense of
:10:02. > :10:07.what just happened. I felt horrible, I didn't even know what to think any
:10:08. > :10:12.more. I was so confused and all I wanted was my mom. I kept asking can
:10:13. > :10:18.I please call my mom, no. My mom is coming here I need to talk to my
:10:19. > :10:24.mom. She was going to be arriving at the train station that morning. I
:10:25. > :10:28.kept hearing my phone ring. I had phone on my desk, it was my mom
:10:29. > :10:32.calling, I knew it was my mom calling, she was going to freak out.
:10:33. > :10:36.It was bad enough growing up when I came home late from school and she
:10:37. > :10:39.didn't know where I was. But my friend had just been murdered and
:10:40. > :10:43.now I'm not answering my cellphone and it is right there and I want to
:10:44. > :10:48.answer and they tell me I can't. And I'm freaking out and I just want to
:10:49. > :10:56.talk to my mom. I think one of the most difficult things for you has
:10:57. > :11:03.been whatever the evidence has been there has been no way of swaying
:11:04. > :11:10.Meredith's family. The idea that they believe that justice for me
:11:11. > :11:15.automatically means injustice for Meredith horrifies me. Because that
:11:16. > :11:21.is impossible for them to live with and I hate that idea. I think they
:11:22. > :11:28.have come round from thinking you were the killer to, not thinking
:11:29. > :11:38.that but they do think there was something that you knew that there
:11:39. > :11:43.was something. I had so many people tell me that, how do you think you
:11:44. > :11:47.can overcome that, it can only be rooted in your confession? And I
:11:48. > :11:53.really believe that is the case that people think there must be something
:11:54. > :11:58.wrong with me. Just like I thought there must be something wrong with
:11:59. > :12:03.me. Because how could anyone do that? But again, the only thing I
:12:04. > :12:10.can do is testify to what happened to me. And hope that people could
:12:11. > :12:17.take a step back from their emotional investment and try to
:12:18. > :12:21.empathise. Amanda Knox, well we have the Rome correspondent for the
:12:22. > :12:32.Sunday Times and the author of Death in Perugia. . Are you surprised by
:12:33. > :12:35.the verdict or not? No, because when the Supreme Court ordered this new
:12:36. > :12:40.trial it was actually pointing towards a conviction, it was tearing
:12:41. > :12:46.to shreds the previous acquittal and the whole way this trial has gone.
:12:47. > :12:51.It was indicating that this was going towards a conviction. Tonight
:12:52. > :12:55.again Amanda Knox is in, by law, a killer, what do you think it has
:12:56. > :12:59.been like for the Kercher family. Has it given them, do you think,
:13:00. > :13:08.today will it have given them any sense of finality or not? When I
:13:09. > :13:12.spoke to them after the last time that Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito
:13:13. > :13:17.were convicted. As they said at this time it was not a time to celebrate.
:13:18. > :13:21.What is important for them to find out what actually happened. Part of
:13:22. > :13:27.that for them is having a definitive ruling, because now this is not a
:13:28. > :13:34.definitive ruling it will now go back to the supreme Court. I'm not
:13:35. > :13:39.sure the Italian courts will give the family an explanation of how and
:13:40. > :13:43.why Meredith died. As you heard from Knox, she will be kicking and
:13:44. > :13:46.screaming before she leaves America, she says the Italians will now put
:13:47. > :13:52.warrant out for her arrest. There is a very old, well from the 1980s
:13:53. > :13:59.extradition agreement between America and Italy. Will that be
:14:00. > :14:04.automatic? It is not automatic, it is pretty hard to predict, but in
:14:05. > :14:09.most cases requests for extradition are met. There have been some
:14:10. > :14:14.exceptions, there was some CIA agents who kidnapped a Muslim cleric
:14:15. > :14:17.in Milan, the extradition was refused for them N this case it is a
:14:18. > :14:23.decision for John Kerry, the Secretary of State. There is quite a
:14:24. > :14:28.strong media campaign in the states for Amanda's innocence, which will
:14:29. > :14:33.go into top gear to block the extradition. It is a choice for the
:14:34. > :14:36.Obama administration to disappoint an important ally like Italy or
:14:37. > :14:41.whether to go ahead with the extradition. As far as the media
:14:42. > :14:45.campaign is concerned in Italy tonight, what is the response from
:14:46. > :14:48.newspapers and television? Well it has been, it is a huge story here,
:14:49. > :14:53.it will be all over the front pages tomorrow morning. I think we can say
:14:54. > :14:58.that the coverage generally reflects the general belief in Italy for
:14:59. > :15:06.public opinion is that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are builty of
:15:07. > :15:09.-- guilty of killing Meredith, despite their protesting their
:15:10. > :15:14.innocence. How long a process will it be? Several months. It will go
:15:15. > :15:18.back to the Supreme Court, and then Amanda and Sollecito will get
:15:19. > :15:25.another chance to argue their case. Difficult to predict these rulings.
:15:26. > :15:28.Given the Supreme Court had previously trashed the acquittal, it
:15:29. > :15:34.would be surprising if the Supreme Court went back on what it had ruled
:15:35. > :15:38.previously, one could expect a new definitive conviction this time.
:15:39. > :15:42.Thank you very much indeed. A central plank of Ed Miliband's
:15:43. > :15:49.economic attack in the coalition has been his convention -- contention
:15:50. > :15:53.that the economic growth figures might have been better than they
:15:54. > :15:57.were last year. However a new report from the Institute of Fiscal Studies
:15:58. > :16:01.released a few moments ago shows the latest analysis that shows living
:16:02. > :16:05.standards are dramatically down before the global financial crisis
:16:06. > :16:19.hit, the fall in household incomes has now come to a halt. Ealing Green
:16:20. > :16:24.in west London isn't exactly down at heel. A four-bed house costs a
:16:25. > :16:29.million pounds here. During the crisis the boutiques and posh
:16:30. > :16:35.restaurants gave way to... Posh charity shops. Surely it wasn't here
:16:36. > :16:39.that the crisis hit hardest? Remember how those with the biggest
:16:40. > :16:43.shoulders were supposed to bear the biggest burden, if you take
:16:44. > :16:46.everything happening to income, tax and benefits, and if you assume
:16:47. > :16:49.everyone has faced the same rise in the cost of living. Everything they
:16:50. > :16:55.pay for, then that turns out to be true. The people who have been
:16:56. > :16:58.squeezed hardest are the richest. Here is what happened to real
:16:59. > :17:04.incomes after tax and benefit changes, assuming price rises were
:17:05. > :17:09.the same for everyone. The richest saw their incomes shrink by 9% since
:17:10. > :17:13.the financial crisis began, those in the middle were squeezed by 6%, and
:17:14. > :17:17.because benefits went up with inflation, the poorest tenth were
:17:18. > :17:20.only squeezed by 2. 4%. If you look straight forwardedly at what has
:17:21. > :17:25.happened to people's incomes, compare it with the average rate of
:17:26. > :17:29.inflation, it looks like those at the top of the income distribution
:17:30. > :17:32.have done quite a lot worse than people towards the bottom of the
:17:33. > :17:35.distribution. That reflects the fact that wages have been going down
:17:36. > :17:39.relative to prices and at least until this year most benefits have
:17:40. > :17:47.been going up in line with prices. Are you feeling squeezed
:17:48. > :17:51.income-wise? Not particularly no. But I have to tighten my belt. I'm
:17:52. > :17:55.not better off but I'm not really squeezed. Are you feeling squeezed?
:17:56. > :18:00.Completely. How? Wages haven't gone up for the past five years.
:18:01. > :18:07.Wage-freeze at the moment, that's right. At least five years. I don't
:18:08. > :18:12.feel things have got better. You only find the richest are squeezed
:18:13. > :18:15.hardest if price rises are the same for everyone. The rise in the cost
:18:16. > :18:18.of living hasn't been the same for rich and poor. The poorer you are
:18:19. > :18:21.the more of your income you are to spend on food and fuel, which have
:18:22. > :18:26.gone up a lot. So the inflation rate for the poor has been higher than
:18:27. > :18:29.for the rich. When you take that into account the picture of who has
:18:30. > :18:34.been squeezed hardest looks very different. The Institute forcal
:18:35. > :18:37.Studies says if you count in those different rates of inflation the
:18:38. > :18:44.real squeeze on living standards was looser for the richest and tighter
:18:45. > :18:48.for the poorest, we were all squeezed as hard as each other. If
:18:49. > :18:52.you then look at people's differing living costs you get a bit of a
:18:53. > :18:55.different pattern. Because people on high-levels of income have seen very
:18:56. > :18:59.often their mortgage rates go down f they have a mortgage, and because
:19:00. > :19:03.food rises and energy prices are gone up very fast, and that's a big
:19:04. > :19:07.part of the budget of poorer households, you see inflation has
:19:08. > :19:11.hit the poorer groups much harder than it has hit the richer groups.
:19:12. > :19:15.If you take account of that it is much more like the reduction in real
:19:16. > :19:19.incomes or living standards as being flat across the distribution. If
:19:20. > :19:23.wages have already stopped falling in real terms, can we expect them to
:19:24. > :19:27.rise any time soon? Wages this year are going to go up by a bit but not
:19:28. > :19:31.very much. The rise of things that people mainly notice, energy,
:19:32. > :19:35.transport, food, rent, they are going to go up by more than the
:19:36. > :19:38.average. So, yes, the worst is over and things are recovering, but I
:19:39. > :19:43.think most people won't notice it very much. The squeeze isn't over
:19:44. > :19:46.for everyone, average numbers mask great differences between private
:19:47. > :19:51.and public, between young and old, those on the bottom will now see
:19:52. > :19:56.incomes rise by just 1%, and the smaller your income the more it
:19:57. > :19:59.hurts when it shrinks. It is a feature of modern politic in this
:20:00. > :20:03.country that party leaders hark, not to past British politicians for
:20:04. > :20:07.inspiration, but rather American greats, or not so greats,
:20:08. > :20:11.particularly in the case of George Osborne, William Hague and Michael
:20:12. > :20:15.Howard, LBJ, and Gordon Brown to JFK, but in Ed Miliband's case the
:20:16. > :20:21.evidence of his admiration for a previous American President is for
:20:22. > :20:26.one his of the repeated phrase, producer not capitalism is inspired
:20:27. > :20:35.by Roosevelt. The man who promised a square deal for every man, great or
:20:36. > :20:39.small, rich our poor. Americans reveer their constitution, their
:20:40. > :20:46.Republic and their President, Roosevelt more than most. Why is Ed
:20:47. > :20:50.Miliband so taken with him? Roosevelt was an action man, an
:20:51. > :20:53.explorer, a big game hunter. The first President to ride in a motor
:20:54. > :21:02.car, and the first head of any state to fly in a plane. Well done, Sir,
:21:03. > :21:06.great news. And a square deal for every man and every woman in the
:21:07. > :21:15.United States. He came to the White House as the champion of what he
:21:16. > :21:23.called a square deal for every American. You hear that in Ed
:21:24. > :21:26.Miliband's talk. He was a big Government robust regulation man,
:21:27. > :21:33.one of his first acts as President was to give a 20,000-word speech
:21:34. > :21:36.urging Congress to rein in the power of corporations or trust, he would
:21:37. > :21:40.be the trust-busting President, standing up for the little guy, the
:21:41. > :21:44.ordinary citizen, against the power of big money and corporate greed. Is
:21:45. > :21:50.that what inspired Ed Miliband. Should corporate Britain be worried?
:21:51. > :21:53.It was very interesting, so Ed Miliband said he would love to be
:21:54. > :21:58.like Teddy Roosevelt. Presumably he doesn't want to hunt elephants or
:21:59. > :22:01.the Amazon jungle. He loves the sense of a man commanding, a huge
:22:02. > :22:05.commanding personality who brings change. I think in a sense what
:22:06. > :22:10.disappointing people maybe about President Obama is that sense that
:22:11. > :22:13.having said "yes we can", it don't look like we can, we have a general
:22:14. > :22:17.sense of powerlessness, all through Europe and the United States, that
:22:18. > :22:21.political leaders are not achieving what people want. America is this
:22:22. > :22:27.huge democracy and is a symbol of hope. A winner Mr President, the
:22:28. > :22:30.1985... Public veneration of the office, if not always the person of
:22:31. > :22:38.the President is played out in popular culture. In the West Wing
:22:39. > :22:43.President Bartlett is always the hero of the piece, noble, selfless,
:22:44. > :22:47.wise. This is great job. In Britain not so much. Not only do you have a
:22:48. > :22:51.locking bent husband and a locking daughter that gets taken to school
:22:52. > :22:57.to a locking sedan sharks you are also locking mental. We treat our
:22:58. > :23:02.political leaders with mockery, they are incompetent, self-serving, it is
:23:03. > :23:10.Marsly. You are a locking omnishambles, that is what you are.
:23:11. > :23:16.Looking to America for inspiration goes long ago. Tony Blair and his
:23:17. > :23:20.first term as Prime Minister read Jonathan Friedland's celebration of
:23:21. > :23:24.American political values Bring Home The Revolution. There was a period
:23:25. > :23:30.in those first new Labour years when he and Gordon Brown and others were
:23:31. > :23:34.very excited by the idea of taking the best of the ideas in America.
:23:35. > :23:38.Bill Clinton was President, they liked that. There was a ready
:23:39. > :23:43.traffic in American ideas. Often forgotten, 1993 when they were just
:23:44. > :23:46.still minor members of the Shadow Cabinet, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown
:23:47. > :23:50.got on a plane and went to Washington to see the new Clinton
:23:51. > :23:54.America that was forming, weeks after Clinton was inaugurated. There
:23:55. > :23:58.was an excitement about it. A sense that America had what Britain
:23:59. > :24:01.lacked, it was forward-looking and go-getting and there was something
:24:02. > :24:07.deep in the constitution that explained that and they wanted a
:24:08. > :24:10.piece of it. Margaret Thatcher once said that in her lifetime all our
:24:11. > :24:14.problems had come from mainland Europe and all the solutions from
:24:15. > :24:20.the English-speaking peoples across the world. America offers us Teddy
:24:21. > :24:30.Roosevelt as a guiding light. How brightly will it shine in our far
:24:31. > :24:35.from ref rent political discourse? I'm joined now by the legendary
:24:36. > :24:48.American biographer whose latest work is a biography of
:24:49. > :24:50.RooseveltORCEDWHITE I'm joined now by the legendary American biographer
:24:51. > :24:52.whose latest work is a biography of Roosevelt, Welcome to the programme.
:24:53. > :24:55.All the special relationships between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald
:24:56. > :25:00.Regan and others. What do you make of this harking back to history for
:25:01. > :25:04.British politicians as some kind of, I don't know, intellectual ballast
:25:05. > :25:18.or exemption later, brownie points for British politicians who want to
:25:19. > :25:21.emulate American Presidents in For a biographer like me I love that you
:25:22. > :25:25.are looking back to the past. There is a turn between the 20th century
:25:26. > :25:28.and today. You had after the Industrial Revolution and now after
:25:29. > :25:32.the technological revolution a huge gap between the rich and the poor,
:25:33. > :25:37.huge concentrations of industries, oil, steel and banking and Teddy
:25:38. > :25:41.Roosevelt comes on the scene with enormous energy and a British
:25:42. > :25:46.Viscount said he had seen two tremendous forces of nature in
:25:47. > :25:50.America, Niagara falls and Teddy Roosevelt. He uses that to say he
:25:51. > :25:56.wants a fair deal, a square deal for everyone, rich and poor. He broke up
:25:57. > :26:02.the trusts and got into food and drugs problems, because people had
:26:03. > :26:06.not unsanitary meat and inlicensed drugs, and he became enormously
:26:07. > :26:10.popular as a result. He was saving capitalism from itself. Saving
:26:11. > :26:18.capitalism from what it had become in the guilded age. The Ed Miliband
:26:19. > :26:23.idea is he doing the same for the 20th century. Would Roosevelt have
:26:24. > :26:29.recognised the phrase "producer rather than predator capitalism"?
:26:30. > :26:33.Absolutely, he said he will be good to corporations as long as they are
:26:34. > :26:39.not predatory, if they are going against people then I'm going
:26:40. > :26:42.against them. That made him have perfect pitch for the time. It makes
:26:43. > :26:46.sense for Labour leader to say I want to use Government to make
:26:47. > :26:50.markets work so, that capitalism works. When it is unfair I will go
:26:51. > :26:58.against them. Of course the case of Ed Miliband, a centre left Labour
:26:59. > :27:03.leader, you know it gives you your book to all his friends, and is he
:27:04. > :27:07.right about this, is he hanging on to this need for a Republican hero,
:27:08. > :27:11.that is a message can you imagine the British people actually
:27:12. > :27:16.accepting? Except that radios svelted is an unusual -- Roosevelt
:27:17. > :27:19.is an unusual Republican hero, he was fighting the old guard in the
:27:20. > :27:23.party, trying to bring them into the modern age. It makes sense, as I say
:27:24. > :27:27.it is great thing for leaders to find some sort of models in the
:27:28. > :27:30.past. History teaches us things. If you have to start all over again
:27:31. > :27:35.then you are not learning from the past. It is interesting, can you
:27:36. > :27:42.imagine American politicians looking to British history for their
:27:43. > :27:48.exemplars? You would hope so, I would hope if we were in a moment we
:27:49. > :27:53.needed a Winston Churchill, I would bring him back from the dead in two
:27:54. > :27:56.seconds, he's my hero. It seems more one-sided from your point of view,
:27:57. > :27:59.but there has to be reasons to look at Britain as well. We can learn
:28:00. > :28:03.from each other, the pond isn't that big. You have done notable
:28:04. > :28:07.biographies of several American Presidents, another Roosevelt and
:28:08. > :28:13.other people. You have said in a recent interview that your next the
:28:14. > :28:17.only criterion for your next book is it is going to be about a powerful
:28:18. > :28:21.woman. Have you made your choice? Well I am thinking still of that as
:28:22. > :28:27.my next big biography, because I have lived with so many men for so
:28:28. > :28:32.long. I'm going to bring d'oh a book about leadership, bringing all my
:28:33. > :28:36.guys into one room, radios sheltie, JFK and LBJ and figuring out what
:28:37. > :28:40.traits they share together. There is a certain universal quality to
:28:41. > :28:43.leadership, in public or private life. I would like to think I have
:28:44. > :28:49.learned that by spending 40 years with these characters from the White
:28:50. > :28:52.House. We will talk about that IFS report and how it will affect the
:28:53. > :29:05.political debate in a moment. First let's reflect on the Roosevelt-Ed
:29:06. > :29:10.Miliband axis with my guests. Do you echo Ed Miliband's love of Teddy
:29:11. > :29:14.Roosevelt? It is clear that Ed Miliband would like us to be having
:29:15. > :29:20.this conversation about him having a grand vision of remaking capitalism
:29:21. > :29:25.for the 21st century. Ed Miliband's understanding of what's happened in
:29:26. > :29:31.the last ten years or so reflected in the financial crisis is the
:29:32. > :29:34.fundamental structures of our economy are broken it means people
:29:35. > :29:37.aren't getting better off. Too much power is centralised in big
:29:38. > :29:42.corporations. As we just heard that means Government has to intervene
:29:43. > :29:47.for the benefit of those people. Acti Man? Popular leader? Good
:29:48. > :29:50.relationship with the press? There is another element, when Ed Miliband
:29:51. > :29:54.became leader of the Labour Party, he said he would turn the page on
:29:55. > :29:58.new Labour. That then immediately raised the question what is your
:29:59. > :30:01.next project? What is Ed Miliband's Labour Party? The Conservatives
:30:02. > :30:05.would like it to be an old Labour and throwback to the 1970s past. He
:30:06. > :30:11.needs something to say about this project that is something other than
:30:12. > :30:17.Blairism on the one hand and 1970s neo-communism on the other hand. He
:30:18. > :30:22.has alighted on this grand new vision. It is a magnificent book,
:30:23. > :30:25.and if the Labour Party Shadow Cabinet will read it they won't do
:30:26. > :30:29.anything for the next month, it is massive. I'm really respectful of
:30:30. > :30:34.any political leader who reads history and draws from history, I
:30:35. > :30:38.think Teddy Roosevelt is an inspiring character. From one Jew to
:30:39. > :30:42.another, I have to tell Ed Miliband that neither of us are Roosevelt. I
:30:43. > :30:45.don't for a moment think he is. Definitely there are stories in
:30:46. > :30:48.there. I have said this to Conservatives about the role the
:30:49. > :30:52.state can play in improving people's lives and the important of dynamism
:30:53. > :30:57.in office. But people do tend to read in these books what they want.
:30:58. > :31:01.I was interested in Best and the Brightest used by Gordon Brown, it
:31:02. > :31:04.was actually a book about how people created the Vietnam War. He was
:31:05. > :31:09.using them as an example, in fact he was missing perhaps the fact that
:31:10. > :31:13.they created a disSAS templet Teddy Roosevelt also through his dynamism,
:31:14. > :31:17.one of the stories in the book is how they break up the progressive
:31:18. > :31:21.movement through Roosevelt's restless pragmatisim. One question I
:31:22. > :31:27.have is whether or not therefore Roosevelt is rightly seen as an
:31:28. > :31:32.idealog or better seen as a pragmatist who saw the problems of
:31:33. > :31:36.his time. The question for Ed Miliband is, is trust-busting the
:31:37. > :31:39.idea of our time? I don't think it is, dynamism has a lot to teach u
:31:40. > :31:43.surely regulation and helping the vulnerable and the poor against big
:31:44. > :31:47.power is very important. But not everything of Roosevelt. He has
:31:48. > :31:50.correctly identified something is people broadly feel there are a lot
:31:51. > :31:55.of forces acting on their lives that means they are no longer in control.
:31:56. > :31:57.A lot of anger and the rage they will be experiencing will be
:31:58. > :32:03.directed against private companies, whether rail or energy. That is a
:32:04. > :32:08.new populisim that Ed Miliband has successfully made his own. Whether
:32:09. > :32:12.it is popular capitalism or not, you have a problem tonight because that
:32:13. > :32:18.study and the new figures show that actually the cost of living crisis
:32:19. > :32:24.has been halted, not such good news for the politics of Ed Miliband? ?
:32:25. > :32:27.It is positive if the Conservatives can say things are moving in the
:32:28. > :32:31.right direction, things are getting better, it hurt but it is working.
:32:32. > :32:35.Getting better not good enough for the Conservatives to make pay out of
:32:36. > :32:41.it? The figures show people have had a real knock, and vulnerable people
:32:42. > :32:44.are feeling it, no Conservative should ignore that finding. In
:32:45. > :32:48.political science and electoral terms all the polls suggest what a
:32:49. > :32:52.really matters is what happens to personal incomes in the last year.
:32:53. > :32:55.The evidence is ambiguous, but the opt mythsic side from the
:32:56. > :32:59.Conservative point of -- optimistic side from the Conservative point of
:33:00. > :33:04.view is things are getting better but you have to feel it. Inflation
:33:05. > :33:09.is hurting poor people much more, energy prices up 60% and food prices
:33:10. > :33:12.30%? This is the problem in the fiscal crisis, one of the reasons I
:33:13. > :33:16.was passionate about the fiscal crisis, when you withdrew from it
:33:17. > :33:20.the poor and vulnerable get hit hardest because they are most
:33:21. > :33:24.reliant on state services. The big danger for Ed Miliband is going into
:33:25. > :33:27.an election saying everything is a crisis and you need a change of
:33:28. > :33:31.Government. People will think it is not bad and getting better. The big
:33:32. > :33:35.danger for the Conservatives is they are fighting campaigns saying to
:33:36. > :33:39.people you are better off than you think you are and they will say we
:33:40. > :33:42.are not. Other plank of Ed Miliband's policy going forward is
:33:43. > :33:46.the vests interest in terms of the unions and changing that. Is that
:33:47. > :33:49.more smoke and mirrors or is it for real? People are not interested in
:33:50. > :33:52.newspaper stories, what happens in their real lives is what really
:33:53. > :33:55.matters. They will believe what they actually feel. That's how they judge
:33:56. > :33:59.politics. They don't follow the stories in and out. These figures
:34:00. > :34:02.really matter. If it is true that personal income growth is going up,
:34:03. > :34:08.then all the political evidence from America is you shouldn't campaign on
:34:09. > :34:12.the economy. Planed is taking -- Ed Miliband is taking a big risking
:34:13. > :34:15.doing that. Breaking the link with the trade unions? People won't
:34:16. > :34:24.engage with the detail of it too much. The danger is it looks like Ed
:34:25. > :34:30.Miliband is having a Conservatives with chat with people in their party
:34:31. > :34:33.and they don't care much. The Ukrainian President Yanukovychian
:34:34. > :34:38.produced a sick note today might believe cynics he's pulling a sicky
:34:39. > :34:47.to remove himself from the crisis's unable to resolve. Caught between
:34:48. > :34:51.Russia bail out and the E US. The protesters were offered a
:34:52. > :34:54.contingency and it was rejected. The cabinet is only allowed to continue
:34:55. > :35:01.in his absence for 60 days. Without a Government Putin won't hand over
:35:02. > :35:06.the badly needed money as the country teeters on bankruptcy. But
:35:07. > :35:11.President Obama's supporting free expression in the Ukraine was
:35:12. > :35:15.mentioned in his State of the Union address. The barricades are more
:35:16. > :35:26.sparsely manned today. But manned they are. These protestors are
:35:27. > :35:30.hardcore, the proclaimers and the implacables, trying to rally the
:35:31. > :35:35.troops. There is no Government concession that will persuade these
:35:36. > :35:39.people to stand down. When will you leave, what will be enough for you
:35:40. > :35:47.to leave the square, to leave these barricades? When our President goes
:35:48. > :35:52.away. And only that? Only that. The policemen guarding the President's
:35:53. > :36:01.offices say they have no idea where he is? At this crucial moment in
:36:02. > :36:06.Ukraine's history everyone is asking the same question. Is the head of
:36:07. > :36:12.state really sick or has there been some sort of a coup? At the
:36:13. > :36:18.barricades the mood is darker now. The protestors suspect a ploy. While
:36:19. > :36:26.Viktor Yanukovych is ill he can't sign legislation so any compromise
:36:27. > :36:32.is on hold. I think he's scared and he doesn't have an exact plan. He's
:36:33. > :36:36.trying to buy time. Exactly. Everyone is buying time here,
:36:37. > :36:40.including the oligarchs who have supported Mr Yanukovych thus far.
:36:41. > :36:47.Now they are trying to figure out is this President a dead duck? Today
:36:48. > :36:50.Yanukovych accused his political opponents of manipulating the
:36:51. > :36:55.demonstrators, of spoking their anger. We tried to visit a Medical
:36:56. > :37:04.Centre, but the protestors turned us away. It is strange, the mood has
:37:05. > :37:07.changed and hardened. One day ago people welcomed us here they were
:37:08. > :37:13.keen to be filmed, now they are saying get out of here. Sheltering
:37:14. > :37:18.inside a makeshift guard post, we met Sergei, a former officer in
:37:19. > :37:23.Ukraine's Interior Ministry forces. The country's first President has
:37:24. > :37:30.warned that Ukraine son the brink -- is on the brink of Civil War. Sergei
:37:31. > :37:34.says his military colleagues agree. TRANSLATION: Some of them are saying
:37:35. > :37:37.they are ready to join us on the streets to demand their rights. They
:37:38. > :37:40.are saying it is the right thing to do. We have all got children and
:37:41. > :37:47.they deserve to have some sort of future, not a Government that is
:37:48. > :37:50.totally corrupt. After yesterday as concessions the opposition put on a
:37:51. > :37:56.show of strength. But there are wider forces at work here, the EU
:37:57. > :38:00.says its assistance will stop until the violence stops. Russia has
:38:01. > :38:04.threatened to withhold bail out money, piling on the economic
:38:05. > :38:17.pressure. On Independence Square this evening we saw protestors
:38:18. > :38:22.replacing tents with wooden huts. These concessions are crumbs tossed
:38:23. > :38:28.from the rich man's table, this man told me. As the politics plays out
:38:29. > :38:32.behind the scenes this stand-off is becoming ever more entrenched. A
:38:33. > :38:40.little earlier I spoke to one of Ukraine's leaders who isn't sick,
:38:41. > :38:44.the Vice President. You are in a situation where your President has
:38:45. > :38:47.gone sick today, you don't have a Prime Minister, is there any chance
:38:48. > :38:52.do you think that the President will actually return to his post? Well
:38:53. > :38:58.the President being sick means that he does have to stay in bed or any
:38:59. > :39:06.way close to medical help. But it doesn't mean that he is not aware of
:39:07. > :39:11.the situation and is not making sure that what needs to be done is being
:39:12. > :39:17.done in this country. The Ukraine is stuck, because it is stuck between
:39:18. > :39:22.Russia to the east and the EU to the west with President Obama also
:39:23. > :39:30.calling for free expression. What are you to do? The thing is that
:39:31. > :39:35.where we are was defined by geography. Where we would like to be
:39:36. > :39:39.is in the political structure of the EU. That is what we tried to
:39:40. > :39:43.achieve. We strived to achieve it for quite a number of years.
:39:44. > :39:50.Including the last four years and the President Yanukovych. The thing
:39:51. > :39:56.is that for that we really had to be much more interconnective in what we
:39:57. > :39:59.would like to achieve. Both the Ukraine and the European Union. And
:40:00. > :40:05.we also need to make sure that there is a balance, balance of interests
:40:06. > :40:15.and understanding of the future, among the Ukraine, EU and Russia. Is
:40:16. > :40:20.the Ukrainian Government scared of Vladimir Putin? They are not scared
:40:21. > :40:25.of Russia of the United States, of the EU, of any of our neighbours and
:40:26. > :40:33.partners. We do engage with all of our neighbours and partners. Because
:40:34. > :40:38.they are important for our future. The Russian market is important for
:40:39. > :40:46.the well being of a very large part of the Ukrainians be it in the east
:40:47. > :40:51.or west. Millions do work there or the temporary basis in Russia and
:40:52. > :40:56.the EU as well. We need to find a solution where everyone would be
:40:57. > :41:01.comfortable with what we have proclaimed as our goal. Going into
:41:02. > :41:07.association with Europe, but on the basis of a very well defined
:41:08. > :41:11.national interest, which should not contradict a long-term view of
:41:12. > :41:16.Europe. At the same time would not scare Russia which believes, for the
:41:17. > :41:21.time being, that these would create a loophole in the custom protection
:41:22. > :41:26.that they believe is so important for their customs union. So that is
:41:27. > :41:32.something. Where we see the solution in tri-lateral negotiations between
:41:33. > :41:36.the Ukraine, Russia and the European Union. It was rejected. Are you
:41:37. > :41:40.absolutely sure, finally, are you absolutely sure, finally, that your
:41:41. > :41:44.country will not descend into Civil War? We need to have a peaceful
:41:45. > :41:51.solution which only can be achieved through dialogue. But this dialogue
:41:52. > :41:54.needs to lead to functionable, efficient Government. Be it through
:41:55. > :41:59.a coalition Government, be it through a change to constitution,
:42:00. > :42:05.everything is now open for discussion. There is an offer for
:42:06. > :42:10.one of the leaders of the opposition to become Prime Minister. The other
:42:11. > :42:16.leader was offered my position. I'm eager to really give him my own
:42:17. > :42:20.functions as they are clearly difficult but also very important to
:42:21. > :42:29.the people of Ukraine. Thank you very much. The Greek poet is known
:42:30. > :42:34.more by repute than by her verse, the aproper racial of the term to
:42:35. > :42:39.mean lesbian love. It was thought that four peoples along with --
:42:40. > :42:45.poems along with fragments of verse had survived. The discovery of two
:42:46. > :42:54.new poems has transformed what we know about the new Greek poet who
:42:55. > :43:00.composed in the year seven BC. What is your reaction? Suffo is one of my
:43:01. > :43:06.favourite poets of all time, she allows us to get directly into the
:43:07. > :43:14.lives of ancient Greek women, in the middle of the 7th century BC. We
:43:15. > :43:18.have a lot of poems by her which is about lesbian love, and another one
:43:19. > :43:26.which is about being a responsible interest to brothers. There is two
:43:27. > :43:32.new poem, how much does that excite new study? It will excite a great
:43:33. > :43:40.deal of new studio, we have so many stance is a, a lot of what --
:43:41. > :43:45.stanza, this really changes how we think about women on the island and
:43:46. > :43:51.in the Aegean sea in this period of time. It shows awful lot of ancient
:43:52. > :43:54.sources said she was always talking about her brothers, a lot of people
:43:55. > :44:00.didn't believe that. These brothers are named in the poem, we know from
:44:01. > :44:05.other sources the names are correct? She has an elder broth that seems to
:44:06. > :44:10.be a bit of a bad lad, he has gone to sea and responsibly left her back
:44:11. > :44:18.at home. He may or may not be off with the famous court sap in Egypt.
:44:19. > :44:22.She's worried about his return? People promises he's coming back.
:44:23. > :44:27.She goes through five different emotion, she says stop harassing me
:44:28. > :44:37.with gossip you don't know, you should tell me to go to the Queen,
:44:38. > :44:42.you will hear that word Heran, the Queen Hera, she says it is better to
:44:43. > :44:46.be calm and leave it rest in the lap of the gods. My younger brother I'm
:44:47. > :44:55.worried about, we want him to be OK so we will be safe and sound on
:44:56. > :44:59.Lesbos. She's your favourite poet, in the canon of poetry from that
:45:00. > :45:06.period is she a great poet? Absolutely, Suffo invents the love
:45:07. > :45:11.song. She invents the subjective "I" voice, where you say how you feel in
:45:12. > :45:17.love. She is the first great lyric love poet in western culture. The
:45:18. > :45:22.fact that it is 2,700 years ago, can you imagine being able to listen to
:45:23. > :45:31.the voice of a British woman from 700 BC. These were found in peace
:45:32. > :45:35.process pyrrhus that has -- papyrus, in a private collection, is there
:45:36. > :45:40.any more? More of ancient Greek poetry. There are boxes still
:45:41. > :45:46.sitting from various rubbish Duchess in Ancient Egypt. Where are they?
:45:47. > :45:49.Some of them are in boxes in humans, some are still wrapped around
:45:50. > :45:57.Egyptian mummies, they were wrapped up in paper and people would peel
:45:58. > :46:04.off the paper and we find find poems on those. I'm sure there are more to
:46:05. > :46:09.be dug up in the sand of Egypt. Some are in private collection? There is
:46:10. > :46:14.a huge black market to do with classical antiquities, I'm not
:46:15. > :46:26.remotely alleging this is one. It is clear the editor of the pan papyrus
:46:27. > :46:32.doesn't know where it should be. Do you think this is going to lead to a
:46:33. > :46:36.kind of reappraisal of Saffo as a poet? It will mean an enormous
:46:37. > :46:41.amount of new business for Greek professor, but to me it is so
:46:42. > :46:45.exciting when people think the classics is dead or closed off we
:46:46. > :46:51.get a whole new emotional sequence from this wonderful woman. Hang on
:46:52. > :46:56.just a minute, Edith will read out some of that newly discovered Saffo,
:46:57. > :48:11.in the original Greek. Hello a few showers around through
:48:12. > :48:13.the night. Mist and