:00:13. > :00:16.The UK Independence Party pride themselves on being unlike other
:00:17. > :00:20.politicians, here is one thing that is certainly different about them.
:00:21. > :00:28.Until December, this man spoke for UKIP on the Commonwealth. When the
:00:29. > :00:33.gates open, now the benefit migrants start coming. We don't know the
:00:34. > :00:39.number. Four million Romanian gypsies alone. Tonight we reveal he
:00:40. > :00:45.was the ringleader of a kidnap gang in Pakistan. Your starter for ten,
:00:46. > :00:53.Michael Gove, plans more changes for schools, true or false. True. And
:00:54. > :01:01.this... I feel like you're spiting me. You think I took it job to spite
:01:02. > :01:07.you. I don't think there is any doubt or argument that he was, and
:01:08. > :01:13.how terrible that verb is in the past now, the greatest character
:01:14. > :01:27.actor of our time. Richard Curtis and Will Self on Hoffman and Heroin.
:01:28. > :01:31.He's been one of the poster boys for the United Kingdom Independence
:01:32. > :01:36.Party, his name is Mujeed Bhutto, usually described as UKIP
:01:37. > :01:40.Commonwealth Spokesman. Tonight Newsnight can disclose that Mr
:01:41. > :01:46.Bhutto was the leader of a notorious kidnapping gang in Karachi. In 2004
:01:47. > :01:49.he threatened to behead the son of a wealthy Pakistani businessman. He
:01:50. > :01:58.fled to England and was arrested in leads. -- Leeds when the ransom
:01:59. > :02:02.money was found under his bed. In the past two years he has campaigned
:02:03. > :02:06.for UKIP and making the most of television appearances. UKIP say
:02:07. > :02:14.today he has left the party and may join the Conservatives.
:02:15. > :02:19.In the media he's been very much the young Asian face of UKIP. Mujeed
:02:20. > :02:24.Bhutto was a party member for more than two years. Shown here on a
:02:25. > :02:30.Sunday morning debate show. What are you worried about, as UKIP's
:02:31. > :02:34.Commonwealth spokesman? It is mass immigration, in the last few years
:02:35. > :02:39.3. 7 million people have come in. How many have gone? We don't know
:02:40. > :02:43.because Government is not keeping up the numbers, they don't know who is
:02:44. > :02:47.coming in and going out. This Pakistani national has a remarkable
:02:48. > :02:52.past. Newsnight has found out that Mujeed Bhutto came to this country
:02:53. > :02:57.in 2004, not to work or visit relatives but to collect a bag full
:02:58. > :03:00.of cash from this car park in central Manchester. It is a story of
:03:01. > :03:07.blackmail, imprisonment and death threats. It starts thousands of
:03:08. > :03:11.miles away in Pakistan. In a wealthy neighbourhood of Karachi a gang of
:03:12. > :03:15.armed men stopped the Carreiraying the son of a well known businessman.
:03:16. > :03:20.He was bundled away at gun point and held in a house in the city for two
:03:21. > :03:26.months. Five days after the kidnapping Mujeed Bhutto flew to
:03:27. > :03:30.England. He negotiated a ransom to be dropped off at the Arndale Centre
:03:31. > :03:34.in Manchester. There was threats vive lens and torture, he claimed to
:03:35. > :03:39.be the boss of the man. At one point saying he would have the victim's
:03:40. > :03:43.head cut off and sent back to his father. There were two things, the
:03:44. > :03:47.city of Manchester being involved in this, 5,000 miles away from
:03:48. > :03:51.Pakistan. It is a lot of work for someone to come down to Manchester
:03:52. > :03:53.and then arang for the ransom to be paid here and all that. The other
:03:54. > :03:57.important thing, or interesting thing was that everybody connected
:03:58. > :04:03.with the gang, everybody, this was a fairly big gang, apparently, seems
:04:04. > :04:10.to have been found out and apprehended and punished, which
:04:11. > :04:15.regrettably does not always happen. The ?56,000 ransom was found hidden
:04:16. > :04:19.underneath Bhutto's bed in a house in Leeds where he was staying at the
:04:20. > :04:23.time. He later admitted conspiracy to blackmail and given a seven-year
:04:24. > :04:28.sentence to be served in a British jail. The judge at Manchester Crown
:04:29. > :04:31.Court said he should be deported to Pakistan, but he claimed political
:04:32. > :04:36.asylum so that never happened. Just a few months after he was released
:04:37. > :04:40.it appears Mujeed Bhutto joined the Conservative Party, a few years
:04:41. > :04:45.later he defected to UKIP. Since 2011 he has hosted conferences and
:04:46. > :04:49.last autumn organised a trip for Nigel Farage to two mosques in Leeds
:04:50. > :04:53.and Bradford. Over the past year he has been on and off the airwave,
:04:54. > :04:57.arguing strongly against unrestricted immigration. Mujeed
:04:58. > :05:01.Bhutto is the Commonwealth spokesman for the party and he's here. What
:05:02. > :05:06.are you saying to a Muslim in a mosque about UKIP? We are giving our
:05:07. > :05:11.message and about what people have their reservations about the party
:05:12. > :05:15.about racism and other things. Thank you for joining us Mujeed Bhutto?
:05:16. > :05:19.Thank you, this is a multiculturalism gone too far, and
:05:20. > :05:24.we are not in Afghanistan, we are in Britain.
:05:25. > :05:28.I'm a British Muslim, the thing is... Is Britain full? We are full,
:05:29. > :05:34.other over capacity, over the limited now. Then over Christmas his
:05:35. > :05:39.Facebook and Twitter pages vanished, he suddenly disappeared from UKIP's
:05:40. > :05:42.list of spokes people in Yorkshire. He now claims he rejoined the
:05:43. > :05:45.Conservative Party last week. This is not of course the first time
:05:46. > :05:50.questions have been raised about UKIP members, whether it is Godfrey
:05:51. > :05:53.Bloom or David Sylvester, blaming floods on gay marriage. If you don't
:05:54. > :05:58.have any discipline as a political party, and you don't have tight
:05:59. > :06:02.screening of candidate, you are perpetually going to be in trouble,
:06:03. > :06:07.and without party discipline a revolt against the mainstream
:06:08. > :06:11.parties will be doomed to fail before it has even got going.
:06:12. > :06:15.Despite that guilty plea, Mujeed Bhutto now claims he was the victim
:06:16. > :06:19.of a political rivalry, as his father was well connected in
:06:20. > :06:22.Pakistan. The rest of the gang were caught in Karachi and given the
:06:23. > :06:27.death penalty, he said he had to take a jail sentence here to avoid
:06:28. > :06:30.that possibility. He claims his case has now been thrown out by the
:06:31. > :06:34.Supreme Court in Pakistan. But the agency which handles kidnapping case
:06:35. > :06:43.there is has told Newsnight he's still a wanted man. My As of last
:06:44. > :06:47.month Mr Bhutto may no longer be an active member of UKIP. However this
:06:48. > :06:51.is the strongest example yet that Nigel Farage may have some way to go
:06:52. > :06:54.in his desire to clean up and professionalise the party.
:06:55. > :07:04.We asked UKIP whether they would come on to news night to talk about
:07:05. > :07:19.their erstwhile spokesman, they told us:
:07:20. > :07:25.The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, has been accused of many
:07:26. > :07:29.things, but reticence or modesty isn't one of them. He has more plans
:07:30. > :07:33.for reforming schooling than the European Union has directives. Today
:07:34. > :07:36.he started off by thanking schools for coping with the demands he has
:07:37. > :07:40.made of them, but he couldn't stop himself making more demands. His
:07:41. > :07:45.ambition, he said, was to create an environment in which you can't tell
:07:46. > :07:53.whether a school is in the private or state sector. Back in the 1990s
:07:54. > :07:58.our Secretary of State for Education was part of a "top club". Mime'
:07:59. > :08:04.Michael Gove. Then, as today, he knew how important extracurricular
:08:05. > :08:16.activities could be, helping, as he would put, to "build character" and
:08:17. > :08:22."instill grit". His main hobbies are real ale and real grit. Back then he
:08:23. > :08:27.was good at politics? Jimmy Carter. A gift, his critics say never left
:08:28. > :08:31.him. They point to his dismissal, announced this weekend, of the
:08:32. > :08:35.Ofsted head, Sally Morgan, as the case in point. I'm really worried
:08:36. > :08:40.what we are seeing is a politicisation of such an important
:08:41. > :08:44.body such as Ofsted really when it has so much to do on school
:08:45. > :08:46.standards, school improvement, on collaboration, what we are seeing is
:08:47. > :08:50.a the Secretary of State playing politics with this really important
:08:51. > :08:55.post. What do you say to that Michael? False. How much is it about
:08:56. > :08:58.politicisingation of the -- politicisation of the role, as
:08:59. > :09:02.claimed by the Liberal Democrats and Labour, and how much is it as part
:09:03. > :09:06.of a wider vision. Man who has such a clear idea of what he is
:09:07. > :09:11.determined education should be about, that doesn't want anyone,
:09:12. > :09:20.least of all anyone at Ofsted, to get in his way. Holland Park school,
:09:21. > :09:23.name checked by Michael Gove in his speech this morning, as a vision of
:09:24. > :09:27.ethos and excellence he wants to see everywhere. It is a state school
:09:28. > :09:34.that has changed dramatically in the last ten years, from the state it
:09:35. > :09:39.found itself by Ofsted to the outstanding rating in 2011. I asked
:09:40. > :09:45.the head if he worries about politicisation of Ofsted? Inevitably
:09:46. > :09:49.one worries about that, it would be regrettable if the political
:09:50. > :09:55.landscape and the educational landscape were so fused that they
:09:56. > :09:59.had become inacceptable. It has not been my experience in any Ofsted
:10:00. > :10:06.inspection that I felt any degree at all of politicisation. I think
:10:07. > :10:11.certainly in 2011 one felt a particular brand that one hadn't
:10:12. > :10:14.felt in previous inspections. Michael Gove is ambitious, he
:10:15. > :10:18.believes the success story of places like Holland Park can be repeated
:10:19. > :10:24.throughout the state sector. And today sounded the death knell on
:10:25. > :10:28.that well worn phrase of the Blair administration, "the bog standard
:10:29. > :10:31.school". Fact show beyond a reasonable doubt that English
:10:32. > :10:34.education is starting to show a sustained and significant
:10:35. > :10:37.improvement. The Government vision isn't just sweetness and light,
:10:38. > :10:41.today's speech also told teachers to punish where they see fit. He even
:10:42. > :10:46.told them how to do T Schools can insist on a detention, lunch break,
:10:47. > :10:51.afterschool or weekends, they do not need, as they used to under Labour,
:10:52. > :10:55.to give parents notice. They ask students to do extra work or repeat
:10:56. > :11:00.unsatisfactory work, to write lines or an extra essay. Mr Government has
:11:01. > :11:10.seen himself as locked in a struggle with this little fella, the blob,
:11:11. > :11:13.the slime of quangos and those against change. If the Secretary of
:11:14. > :11:17.State has a strong feeling of passion about the direction Ofsted
:11:18. > :11:20.should be going in, shouldn't he be allowed to exercise that?
:11:21. > :11:23.Secretaries of state should have autonomy and power, what we are
:11:24. > :11:26.facing at the moment is a situation where everyone is saying Sally
:11:27. > :11:32.Morgan is doing a good job, and we are seeing Ofsted inspecting in a
:11:33. > :11:37.new and creative manner in certain circumstances, she is working well
:11:38. > :11:40.with Michael Wilshaw, and yet the Secretary of State is getting rid of
:11:41. > :11:45.her for essentially party political purposes. I understand a lot of this
:11:46. > :11:47.hinges on the relationship between the Chief Inspector of Schools and
:11:48. > :11:51.Michael Gove himself. Sir Michael was brought in as a man who shared
:11:52. > :11:58.Mr Government's passions and understanding of the need for a
:11:59. > :12:03.formal Ofsted, and yet, some way, he struggled to bring the institution
:12:04. > :12:08.with him. Two weeks ago Michael Wilshaw say red, angered that plans
:12:09. > :12:13.were being drawn up to reform and replace Ofsted. And last week David
:12:14. > :12:18.Cameron appointed to the office a campaigns officer, a move Labour
:12:19. > :12:22.fears will fill the jobs with more top Tories. Michael Gove insists
:12:23. > :12:27.this isn't part of a Number Ten plan and the Morgan move was all his own
:12:28. > :12:33.work. The Education Secretary is man known for his zeal and a sense of
:12:34. > :12:42.doing things his way, as the "top club" might have once sung.
:12:43. > :12:46.# It's got to be... # Perfect! We asked Michael Gove and
:12:47. > :12:49.any of his backing group of education ministers to come on and
:12:50. > :12:55.discuss his speech, they said no-one was available. I'm joined by the
:12:56. > :13:00.headmaster or headteacher of the London Academy of excellence, are
:13:01. > :13:03.you headmaster or headteacher? I call myself headmaster. The free
:13:04. > :13:08.school where Michael Gove made his speech. Fiona Miller who chairs the
:13:09. > :13:12.Local Schools Network, which campaigns to promote local state
:13:13. > :13:17.schools, and David Green who runs the Civitas think-tank. He as right
:13:18. > :13:21.isn't he in a way in saying that the "bog standard" school is leaving
:13:22. > :13:26.England? I think so, personally I think that the creation of numerous
:13:27. > :13:30.academies and a fairly large number of free schools has made a big
:13:31. > :13:33.difference. It depends on whether you think competition drives up
:13:34. > :13:37.standards or whether you think it doesn't. Personally I think it does.
:13:38. > :13:45.The great problem we have had in the last 30 years that we have had 25 or
:13:46. > :13:48.30% of pupils usually from disadvantaged backgrounds going to
:13:49. > :13:54.schools where they have just not achieved their potential, hah that
:13:55. > :13:56.couldn't be solved under state system with local authorities in the
:13:57. > :14:00.driving seat, if not directly controlling schools in the way they
:14:01. > :14:04.used to. His introduction of free schools and academies has
:14:05. > :14:09.transformed the situation. To that extent it is a reasonable inference.
:14:10. > :14:13.What do you make of the fact that he seemed to take the independent
:14:14. > :14:16.sector as the benchmark, the desirable benchmark? He always does,
:14:17. > :14:20.that I thought his speech today was a little bonkers, if you don't mind
:14:21. > :14:23.me saying so. To talk about state schools introducing lines, bringing
:14:24. > :14:28.in common entrance tests. There is no reason why they couldn't if they
:14:29. > :14:32.wanted to? Why would they want to? He talked about a lot of things that
:14:33. > :14:36.states schools are already doing as if they weren't. That is par for the
:14:37. > :14:42.course, he likes to set up the straw men, the trendy progressive state
:14:43. > :14:46.schools not doing rigour, not doing Duke of Edinburghs and debating, all
:14:47. > :14:50.these things are going on in state schools and parents know that well.
:14:51. > :14:55.It is a false dichotomy, he talks about state and independent schools,
:14:56. > :14:59.rather than good schools and not issed God schools, it is up to good
:15:00. > :15:04.schools to help make the not so good will, it is about sharing with
:15:05. > :15:08.schools what is not fully imbedded. That is happening in London and what
:15:09. > :15:12.London Challenge achieved, that is why London schools are a lot more
:15:13. > :15:17.successful. Because they have had more money? And focus and attention.
:15:18. > :15:22.Did you think the speech was bonkers? As I said afterwards, it
:15:23. > :15:26.was my school it was given at, I said a good lesson, some things we
:15:27. > :15:31.heard before some we hadn't and lots to think about. Some aspects, having
:15:32. > :15:37.come from the independent sector, the school I used to work did one of
:15:38. > :15:42.the most sensible things they did is get rid of the common entrance.
:15:43. > :15:47.There used to be a test at 14 that got away with, it all turned into a
:15:48. > :15:50.complete shambles. I seem to recall that he was actually rather in
:15:51. > :15:54.favour of getting rid of it? I can't remember, it was Ed Balls who got
:15:55. > :15:59.rid of it. The thing about Michael Gove the language he uses is
:16:00. > :16:02.detatched from what goes on in real schools, he's alienating a lot of
:16:03. > :16:06.heads and teachers who are working very hard to do all the things you
:16:07. > :16:10.are talking about, by demonising them, presenting them as this
:16:11. > :16:14.mythical blob that doesn't exist, apart from in the minds of the
:16:15. > :16:19.Telegraph leaders. What about some of these other pro-Mosal --
:16:20. > :16:23.proposals that there be lines given and other forms of punishment in
:16:24. > :16:26.schools? The way to look at it is like this, the big structural
:16:27. > :16:30.changes have happened, now there is free schools and academies, and the
:16:31. > :16:33.next stage is to go on to, which is partly what you were saying Robert,
:16:34. > :16:37.is what makes for a good school. What should schools be doing. What
:16:38. > :16:41.he is saying is there's been this problem of discipline in recent
:16:42. > :16:45.years, and he's saying let me make it clear that there is more you can.
:16:46. > :16:49.Do I didn't think it was in the least bit bonkers, and he was saying
:16:50. > :16:53.that, for example, he will know perfectly well if you look at the
:16:54. > :16:57.international study, it tries to work out what makes the difference
:16:58. > :17:00.between an independently managed school and why they do better in the
:17:01. > :17:06.state schools. And one of the things is they put in more time. So he's
:17:07. > :17:11.saying let me make it clear you can put in more time. Let's talk to
:17:12. > :17:14.Fiona's point that he refers to, the "blob", explain what that is? I
:17:15. > :17:18.don't know. It is a creation of Michael Gove and the Telegraph. Does
:17:19. > :17:25.anyone know what it means? It is way of referring to the inertia in a
:17:26. > :17:31.system. For the last 0 -- 30-odd years there is focus on what is
:17:32. > :17:35.called progressive, child-led, child-focussed education, and it has
:17:36. > :17:40.dragged down standards. Do you think Fiona is part of the blob? Yes, she
:17:41. > :17:45.is. I'm a journalist, and there is a lot of blobby journalists. You are a
:17:46. > :17:50.chairman of governors and active in local schools network. Anyone who
:17:51. > :17:57.criticised child-centered he education is making a big mistake,
:17:58. > :18:02.it should be child-sendered. It is child-led or teacher-led. That was
:18:03. > :18:06.false dichotomy. One of the things we have encountered is Ofsted
:18:07. > :18:10.inspectors going around, giving a school "outstanding" for
:18:11. > :18:15.achievement, and good for teaching quality, because they were too
:18:16. > :18:18.diadactic. We are talking about the way Michael Gove deals with people
:18:19. > :18:21.who work in the frontline. It is not a separate issues. That is what the
:18:22. > :18:27.blob is, it is because the inspectors are endorsing doctrines
:18:28. > :18:30.that do not work for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. There are
:18:31. > :18:34.teachers and head teachers, these are the people that run our schools
:18:35. > :18:37.make them work well. We want to encourage them to do better if they
:18:38. > :18:41.are not doing well enough, and celebrate the ones doing well. The
:18:42. > :18:44.way Michael Gove deals with it is to demonise everybody in the state
:18:45. > :18:48.system and saying everyone in the private system is doing brilliantly.
:18:49. > :18:54.We need to switch the rhetoric and focus on support and collaboration.
:18:55. > :18:57.Do you feel part of the blob? No I don't. You know what the blob is
:18:58. > :19:01.don't you? It is some construct put together by the media isn't it
:19:02. > :19:06.really. I mean in the same way. You don't recognise that there is an
:19:07. > :19:10.orthodoxy in academic circles about what teaching ought to be, what the
:19:11. > :19:13.style ought to be, what its methodology ought to be? I don't
:19:14. > :19:17.think that is true, that might have been true ten years, but not now.
:19:18. > :19:23.Just talking about Ofsted, only last week Michael Wilshaw published an
:19:24. > :19:27.open letter to the inspectorate saying stop saying the lessons was
:19:28. > :19:30.bad because there was too much teacher talk. He needed to do that
:19:31. > :19:33.because it was a problem. The point being is the Chief Inspector is
:19:34. > :19:37.saying the most important thing about a lesson, which seems fairly
:19:38. > :19:41.obvious is whether the children learn something or not or make
:19:42. > :19:44.progress. And the method, sometimes that will be through teacher talk
:19:45. > :19:46.and sometimes through impact learning and sometimes through group
:19:47. > :19:50.work and sometimes through some other method, what matters at the
:19:51. > :19:55.end of the lesson is do the children walk out knowing more than when they
:19:56. > :19:58.went into the room. Part of the madness of Michael Gove is he talks
:19:59. > :20:02.the language of autonomy and being free, but then does nothing but tell
:20:03. > :20:05.people how to do their job, disMRNing children and how to teach.
:20:06. > :20:10.You think there is no problem? Yes, of course, many schools do need to
:20:11. > :20:13.get better, I fully accept that. As our elected representative, isn't it
:20:14. > :20:17.his job to try to make things better? I'm making the thing that he
:20:18. > :20:21.says he wants to give power to heads and teachers to decide how to run
:20:22. > :20:24.their schools, let's let them do it, they don't need to be lectured by
:20:25. > :20:28.him about how to instill discipline in their pupils or how exactly to
:20:29. > :20:33.teach a lesson. If he wants autonomy let's talk about that. David's point
:20:34. > :20:38.is crucially. You will be backed centrally. He want to control it
:20:39. > :20:44.centrally. He's making it clear that from Whitehall they will back the
:20:45. > :20:47.teachers who use these methods. What are we trying do? Some of the things
:20:48. > :20:51.talked about today in the speech sounds like education hasn't
:20:52. > :20:55.developed a new purpose apart from preparing people to work in clerical
:20:56. > :20:58.jobs that no longer exist. The best schools now are teaching, as well as
:20:59. > :21:05.knowledge, the skills of creativity, of independent thinking. Piajet says
:21:06. > :21:09.people are intelligent are those who know what to do when they don't know
:21:10. > :21:14.what to do. That is what schools should be doing, that is what Dilnot
:21:15. > :21:18.Williams and others are talking about all the time. We come back to
:21:19. > :21:21.conversations about methods of teaching rather than the purpose of
:21:22. > :21:28.teaching. Those are discredited doctrine, Piajet is discredited. I
:21:29. > :21:35.think this is going off topic here. It has become a by-word for cover-up
:21:36. > :21:38.and injustice, survivors of the Hillsborough disaster has told
:21:39. > :21:42.Newsnight they were intimidated and threatened by police sent to take
:21:43. > :21:46.their statements. Seven months ago the Illsley independent panel
:21:47. > :21:49.reported that accounts from Yorkshire Police, the local force,
:21:50. > :21:54.had been changed, apparently to shift the blamen to the fans. For
:21:55. > :22:00.the first time a number of fan who is survived the disaster have come
:22:01. > :22:05.forward to tell us how West Midlands Police took their statements. Peter
:22:06. > :22:14.Marshall, who was at Hillsborough in 1989 has been investigating. S.
:22:15. > :22:16.Peter Marshall, who was at Hillsborough in 1989 has been
:22:17. > :22:19.investigating. If you were there you know. If you were on the terrace
:22:20. > :22:24.inside, 3,000 were backed behind the goal, you thanked mercy you
:22:25. > :22:32.survived. 96 didn't. But for untold numbers, escaping the crush was only
:22:33. > :22:35.the start of decades of trauma. I wasn't the same person, the top had
:22:36. > :22:45.come off for me, I couldn't keep it all within any more. I just didn't
:22:46. > :22:49.want to carry on. Some feel their trauma was made far worse by the
:22:50. > :22:55.attitude of the officers whose job it was to mount an Independent
:22:56. > :22:59.investigation into what went wrong at Hillsborough. Survivors will tell
:23:00. > :23:02.you certain of these officers from the West Midlands force seemed to
:23:03. > :23:08.regard them not so much as vulnerable but invaluable witnesses
:23:09. > :23:12.more as though they were the accused. He told me he was going to
:23:13. > :23:17.put together a case to charge me with wasting police time. I'm a
:23:18. > :23:21.19-year-old boy, three weeks out of Hillsborough, traumatised, and he's
:23:22. > :23:25.threatening me that he will put together a case for wasting police
:23:26. > :23:31.time, because he didn't like my evidence. Nick, a 19-year-old
:23:32. > :23:36.Sheffield student at the time was an Ipswich fan, a neutral, excited to
:23:37. > :23:39.be going to a cup semifinal with friends from Liverpool. But as soon
:23:40. > :23:45.as he arrived outside the ground he saw the chaos. It was a very
:23:46. > :23:48.dangerous crush outside the stadium, which developed, there were very few
:23:49. > :23:55.place around, no directions, no filtering, no barriers, nothing at
:23:56. > :24:00.all. Nick and over 1,000 others went into the ground when police ordered
:24:01. > :24:07.the opening of an exit gate. Within seconds they were in a lethal crush
:24:08. > :24:12.on the terrace. John was just 17. The sound that still resonates with
:24:13. > :24:19.me to this day is the sound of a crash barrier just snapping. And
:24:20. > :24:26.everyone seemed just to topple in a domino effect. I went down under and
:24:27. > :24:37.through the crowd. I think I passed out underneath and within the crowd,
:24:38. > :24:52.I came to near the front left of the pen, and came to amongst people that
:24:53. > :24:57.I now know were dead or were dying. As luck was within a matter of
:24:58. > :25:04.metres to gate that led on to the pitch. There was a policeman on the
:25:05. > :25:11.gate, the cries are suitable cries. People are dying, the guy turns his
:25:12. > :25:16.back on us, he turned his back on us and ignores us. He didn't comprehend
:25:17. > :25:21.what was going on in front of his eyes. He could not have understood
:25:22. > :25:26.it. I remember standing next to a guy with dark greasey hair from the
:25:27. > :25:32.sweat, we were totally pushed against each other in such a way
:25:33. > :25:38.that it is impossible to describe. It was just me and him fighting for
:25:39. > :25:42.our lives. And I don't know if he was one of the 96, I don't know if
:25:43. > :25:49.he got out. But I know that I had to stand on him to get out. John helped
:25:50. > :25:54.carry the dead and dying and then collapsed. In the following weeks he
:25:55. > :25:58.and Nick and others were asked to make statements to the West Midlands
:25:59. > :26:04.Police who had been called in to investigate. The questions weren't
:26:05. > :26:08.what they had expected. The questions were along the line of how
:26:09. > :26:11.can you give evidence against the policemen, how can you make
:26:12. > :26:16.statements like that. Who are you to try to stitch us up and all this
:26:17. > :26:23.nonsense. He then turned quite aggressive and started to question
:26:24. > :26:28.me, was I a left-wing agitator, was I a student agitator or a member of
:26:29. > :26:35.the Socialist Workers' Party. It was observed the day before I had been
:26:36. > :26:43.wearing a "free man Dell had a" T-shirt, that made me a left-wing
:26:44. > :26:48.agitator. What did you say to it? I laughed initially. It was just are
:26:49. > :26:52.you serious, I'm just a fan of the game of football. John, the
:26:53. > :26:55.schoolboy, says two officers came to his house and sent his parents away,
:26:56. > :26:59.supposedly to spare their feelings. He told them everything, including
:27:00. > :27:04.his plan to join the police. He says they dismissed his account as
:27:05. > :27:08.unimportant. They had heard it all before. I hadn't told them anything
:27:09. > :27:23.they didn't already know, and although I had been talking I didn't
:27:24. > :27:28.know what he had written. N. They They stood around me and I wanted to
:27:29. > :27:34.read it because I wasn't happy so I stood up. They stood around me, that
:27:35. > :27:37.was oppressive behaviour, they were physically intimidating, two grown
:27:38. > :27:43.men, detectives, in my house, I felt I had no power to tell them what to
:27:44. > :27:49.do. You were a child? Yeah. They simply told me to sign it. They said
:27:50. > :27:55.you don't need to read it, I have written what you have told me, all
:27:56. > :28:00.you need to do is sign this now. So what happened? I signed it. You
:28:01. > :28:06.didn't read it? No, they wouldn't let me. Nick says to him the police
:28:07. > :28:10.became increasingly hostile? He then turned on me as to whether I was a
:28:11. > :28:14.criminal with a grudge against the police. He told me he was going to
:28:15. > :28:17.check my criminal record, he just you know just said I wasn't there, I
:28:18. > :28:21.couldn't have been there. Couldn't have been at the game? I said you
:28:22. > :28:26.have my match ticket, what more do you need me to prove I was there. He
:28:27. > :28:31.said well you could have found that. What's particularly troubling is
:28:32. > :28:36.that these stories of survivors feeling intimidated and abused are
:28:37. > :28:41.not uncommon. Many now see a thread stretching from the south Yorkshire
:28:42. > :28:45.force, who bungled the organisation at Hillsborough, to the West
:28:46. > :28:53.Midlands Police, now teamed to have failed in their investigation. As
:28:54. > :28:57.the main author of the Hillsborough Panel Report, and after 25 years
:28:58. > :29:00.researching the disaster, this professor believes survivors, like
:29:01. > :29:05.the bereaved, weren't interviewed, they were interrogated. There was a
:29:06. > :29:14.mind set amongst the police investigators, and that mind set
:29:15. > :29:21.hinged on crowd-related violence hooliganism, for want of a better
:29:22. > :29:24.phrase, drunkenness, late arrival and ticketlessness. That was the
:29:25. > :29:31.mind set. What I think is so significant about this is that if
:29:32. > :29:34.you put that alongside knowledge that the police statements were
:29:35. > :29:39.being reviewed and altered, it brings into question the entire
:29:40. > :29:45.evidential base upon which the inquiries and investigations were
:29:46. > :29:49.conducted. He says the way statements were taken only added to
:29:50. > :29:55.the unresolved trauma. John was both typical and unique. He joined the
:29:56. > :29:59.police, the Met's murder squad, but was haunted by what he called
:30:00. > :30:08.survivor guilt. 15 years on he tried to kill himself. The sound of the
:30:09. > :30:15.barrier, the screams, still the feel of that guy's hair in my face, still
:30:16. > :30:20.feel it, I feel it now, I feel it today. I didn't want it any more. I
:30:21. > :30:25.didn't think I at the served to still -- deserved to still be on.
:30:26. > :30:35.What did you do? Tried to drive a car into a tree. John resigned from
:30:36. > :30:40.the police and has now rebuilt his lifeuilt his life. At the Warrington
:30:41. > :30:44.Police Complaints Authority they are rebuilding the inquiry. All the
:30:45. > :30:48.original statements were handed to the original Hillsborough panel and
:30:49. > :30:53.stored here. Nick sees his and says it doesn't reflect the truth. He has
:30:54. > :30:58.also seen internal West Midlands Police memos and notes. And there,
:30:59. > :31:03.hand-written are the lines referring to him, "came across as totally
:31:04. > :31:07.antipolice, at first doubted he had been at the match, then there is the
:31:08. > :31:13.Nelson Mandela T-shirt, left-wing type, actual motif not known". What
:31:14. > :31:17.do you think of what they have written down? It is nonsense, it is
:31:18. > :31:24.a cover up of a cover up, if you like. John's finally got to see the
:31:25. > :31:29.statement he was refused sight of 25 years ago. He says it even places
:31:30. > :31:34.him in the wrong part of the ground. The way they dealt with me on that
:31:35. > :31:37.day, I felt dirty when they walked out the door. I felt they didn't
:31:38. > :31:45.want to listen to me and they had come with an agenda. It totally
:31:46. > :31:49.vindicates my thoughts then. West Midlands Police aren't commenting on
:31:50. > :31:51.any of this, they say they are awaiting the explanation of
:31:52. > :32:04.continuing investigations and the fresh Hillsborough inquest.
:32:05. > :32:07.The shock of the news that the actor Philip Seymour Hoffman had been
:32:08. > :32:10.found dead with a needle in his harm as hardly abated. There is universal
:32:11. > :32:15.agreement he was an outstanding performer, and some great surprise
:32:16. > :32:19.at the circumstances of his death. I'm going to talk about drugs and
:32:20. > :32:26.addiction and creativity shortly with Will Self. First though Richard
:32:27. > :32:31.Curtis, who worked with Hoffman on his film The Boat That Rocked
:32:32. > :32:35.remembers the factor's -- actor's work. Philip Seymour Hoffman was a
:32:36. > :32:40.wonderful, mysterious and complex man, who gave an astonishing range
:32:41. > :32:44.of performances in his 60 or so films. He had that talent that the
:32:45. > :32:49.great actors do of extending your understanding and sympathy for human
:32:50. > :32:54.beings. So it is no coincidence that one of his great stage performances
:32:55. > :33:00.was in Death of a Salesman, the key line of which is "attention must be
:33:01. > :33:08.paid". Philip's performances made us pay attention to strange or lonely,
:33:09. > :33:16.uncool, unusual men. There's a very telling and strangely apt line in
:33:17. > :33:23.his wonderful performance in Almost Famous. I'm glad you are home? I'm
:33:24. > :33:27.always home, I'm uncool. Me too? You are doing great, the only true
:33:28. > :33:36.currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone when you
:33:37. > :33:42.are uncool. He made no mistakes in his extraordinary career. I remember
:33:43. > :33:46.him sitting around with people on The Boat That Rocked. I asked him
:33:47. > :33:51.was there any film he was unsure of, and he said Twister, and the howl
:33:52. > :33:56.went up and said you were fantastic, it is a fantastic film. Even in that
:33:57. > :33:59.effects-driven Hollywood commercial firm there was something
:34:00. > :34:04.extraordinary about what Phil did. He was good at everything. He was
:34:05. > :34:10.very good at being bad, he was a great stage Iago, and this is a
:34:11. > :34:15.glimpse of him as someone who wants to kill Tom Cruise which is bad, I
:34:16. > :34:22.suppose. What are you saying, that wasn't it? What I gave yo I'm going
:34:23. > :34:29.to count to ten, you will tell me where the rabbit's foot is or she
:34:30. > :34:35.dies. He was exceptional at portraying goodness or sweetness.
:34:36. > :34:39.Like he did in the film, beautiful film Jack Goes Boating, that he
:34:40. > :34:52.himself directed. Maybe a little good night kis Maybe. Nothing
:34:53. > :34:57.overwhelming? OK. I don't think there is any doubt or argument that
:34:58. > :35:04.he was, and how terrible that verb is in the past now, the greatest
:35:05. > :35:10.character actor of our time. I remember the first part I ever fell
:35:11. > :35:15.in love with him in was The Talented Mr Ripley. Extraordinary rhythms
:35:16. > :35:29.like you had never seen someone do before. Are you living here? No, no,
:35:30. > :35:40.I'm staying here for a few day It is a new piano, you probably shouldn't.
:35:41. > :35:43.(hits piano keys) His explosive performance in Charley Wilson's War,
:35:44. > :35:47.almost unrecoginsable from any other film you have seen him in. I have
:35:48. > :35:53.neutralised champions of communism, I have spent the past three years
:35:54. > :35:56.learning finish, which will come in handy in Virginia, and I'm never
:35:57. > :36:02.sick at sea, I want to know why I'm not going to be the Helsinki chief.
:36:03. > :36:09.You are coarse? Excuse me. He was a proper leading man, as seen in his
:36:10. > :36:14.amazing performance as Trueman Capote, for which he won an Oscar,
:36:15. > :36:20.he should have won ten. I had lunch with Jimmy Barredman the other day.
:36:21. > :36:24.How is he? He's a lovely man, he told me the plot of his new book, he
:36:25. > :36:28.said to me I just want to make sure it is not one of those problem
:36:29. > :36:34.novels, I said, Jimmy your novel is about a negro homosexual who is in
:36:35. > :36:40.love with a Jew, wouldn't you call that a problem?! All I can say is
:36:41. > :36:48.perhaps you seek out one or even five of his extraordinary films from
:36:49. > :36:54.Magnolia to The Mast e from Punchdrunk Love to The Savages, I'm
:36:55. > :36:58.sure you will marvel at it, and enjoy it and know a little bit more
:36:59. > :37:02.about what it means to be human. That is what great actors do. And
:37:03. > :37:08.Philip Seymour Hoffman was such an actor. Richard Curtis on Philip
:37:09. > :37:13.Seymour Hoffman. Joining us now is the writer Will Self. I would like
:37:14. > :37:17.to talk about the drugs aspect of this. Were you surprised? I knew
:37:18. > :37:21.nothing about Philip Seymour Hoffman's involvement with drugs at
:37:22. > :37:24.all. Surely one of the reasons why we have all cleaved to him so
:37:25. > :37:29.strongly is he was somebody who managed to keep his private life
:37:30. > :37:35.largely out of the public eye, which is an achievement in this day and
:37:36. > :37:41.age. Do you understand the involvement with drugs? Addiction is
:37:42. > :37:45.no respecter of persons. There is hardly anywhere you can point a
:37:46. > :37:52.finger high or low in society and not hit somebody who has addiction
:37:53. > :37:55.issues. Heroin is a drug we associate most strongly with
:37:56. > :37:58.addiction, but people can be addicted to all sorts of things. I
:37:59. > :38:02.think the fact that heroin was involved in his death is what people
:38:03. > :38:09.find very shocking. Largely because of the image that heroin has in our
:38:10. > :38:15.culture. I think that is shocking. The old saw-horse of whether he was
:38:16. > :38:20.such an amazing actor in some way was connected, his creativity was
:38:21. > :38:24.connected with the drug use, or the pressures of his life led to the
:38:25. > :38:32.drug use. I dare say that's in the mix, you can go to any kind of poor
:38:33. > :38:38.or deprived part of our country and shake a stick, throw a stick and you
:38:39. > :38:43.will hit somebody who probably has a heroin habit. We have the highest
:38:44. > :38:48.per capita registered heroin addicts in Europe. It is often represented
:38:49. > :38:51.as a loser's drug, which is the environment you are talking about
:38:52. > :38:56.there, by no stretch of the imagination was this man a loser?
:38:57. > :39:01.No, and you will find heroin addicts in every walk of life. I think in
:39:02. > :39:04.America, in particular, there is a very strange culture, there is a
:39:05. > :39:12.strange one here as well. But a strange culture surrounding opiate
:39:13. > :39:18.drugs, and the broader family of drugs which heroin is one. What is
:39:19. > :39:22.heroin like? You are asking me personally. I think for people that
:39:23. > :39:30.don't have, you know, who don't have a reason to be anaesthetised, it
:39:31. > :39:34.probably is experienced as, yes euphoric, as yes a kind of drug that
:39:35. > :39:38.they wouldn't mind taking, but they wouldn't necessarily feel a pull
:39:39. > :39:42.towards taking it again. It is one of the paradoxes. One of the strange
:39:43. > :39:46.things is most of the people watching us now at some time or
:39:47. > :39:50.another will take medical diamorphine, which is heroin. If
:39:51. > :39:54.they are in pain they will experience simply the removal of the
:39:55. > :40:00.pain. It is not instantly addictive then? No, it takes a fairly
:40:01. > :40:05.concerted effort to get addicted to opiate drugs, so you can say that
:40:06. > :40:08.people who do become addicted, maybe they have a predisposition to it.
:40:09. > :40:13.But they have to make some decisions and decide to take it. But I think
:40:14. > :40:18.at some point, and presumably this had happened to Hoffman and from the
:40:19. > :40:22.bare bones account we have of his history of drug use, it probably
:40:23. > :40:25.happened to him shortly after he left acting school. Because he went
:40:26. > :40:30.to rehab after that. You don't really go to drug rehab without a
:40:31. > :40:33.drug problem. The points get switched, you have made so many
:40:34. > :40:39.decisions to take the drug that the taking of it becomes compulsive at
:40:40. > :40:42.some level. Apparently he spent 20 years clean? Yes, that may well be
:40:43. > :40:47.true. Of course we don't know whether he had other addictive
:40:48. > :40:50.behaviours so to speak, and kept the addiction dormant. I think the way
:40:51. > :40:55.the story is being reported suggests this idea that addiction is like a
:40:56. > :40:59.kind of ugly spirit that was could youed -- cowed and pushed into the
:41:00. > :41:03.background and reared up in that way. I'm not sure that is useful. It
:41:04. > :41:07.seems a rather medieval perception of it, we don't know is the truth of
:41:08. > :41:12.the matter, what led to him being in that situation, again very sadly,
:41:13. > :41:15.but this is only supposition, often people who returned to using heroin
:41:16. > :41:25.after a long period of be a Nantes, they can't judge the dose. You know,
:41:26. > :41:30.this is happening quite freakily. -- frequently. There is something about
:41:31. > :41:35.injecting isn't there? It is the combination of his brilliance as an
:41:36. > :41:41.actor and the very, very, and it is pushed as a gory detail, it is a
:41:42. > :41:45.lurid detail, it is a bit of sensationalism that injecting is
:41:46. > :41:48.involved is very shocking. I think that is because, again, most of us
:41:49. > :41:53.will be injected with heroin at some point in our lives. Usually just
:41:54. > :41:59.before we die. You know anybody who has been in hospital and had pain
:42:00. > :42:03.relief has been injected with heroin often, or morphine. Do you think
:42:04. > :42:10.doing it yourself is different? That is the point, going right back to
:42:11. > :42:13.the, heroin was originally synthesised in St Mary's Hospital in
:42:14. > :42:18.Paddington, near to where we are now. It was a medical THIVENLTH
:42:19. > :42:24.opiate addiction has always been appropriating what should be
:42:25. > :42:29.rightfully a medical role. I don't mean to be trite about this, it is
:42:30. > :42:31.quite serious, addiction comes about at the same time as the full
:42:32. > :42:36.professionalise of medicine and the elevation of medicine to our modern
:42:37. > :42:40.priesthood, our kind of spiritual priesthood, the idea that somebody
:42:41. > :42:43.should appropriate th thing that only doctors are meant to do and do
:42:44. > :42:51.it to themselves is very, very shocking. Now the last British
:42:52. > :42:54.combat soldiers should be out of Afghanistan by the end of the year.
:42:55. > :42:57.This country's claim and the claim of all of NATO is the deadline
:42:58. > :43:02.doesn't mark the end of commitment, merely a change of activity. They
:43:03. > :43:05.would like to have agreed with the Afghan Government precisely how that
:43:06. > :43:08.will work, but that has not been possible, either because of
:43:09. > :43:14.President is a lame duck and won't be in office much longer, or perhaps
:43:15. > :43:19.because he's just difficult. So our defence correspondent jumped at the
:43:20. > :43:25.chance to find out how the NATO secretary-general, Anders Fogh
:43:26. > :43:28.Rasmussen, saw things. NATO combat troops must be out of Afghanistan by
:43:29. > :43:36.the end of this year. And there is no agreement over what will follow.
:43:37. > :43:41.So, plans to create a force of NATO advisers, even the details of who
:43:42. > :43:46.will pay the Afghan Army, are up in the air, and western security chiefs
:43:47. > :43:51.are deeply unhappy. I'm concerned that if there is no present
:43:52. > :43:55.international presence in Afghanistan, after 2014, it would
:43:56. > :43:59.also be difficult to generate financial resources to sustain the
:44:00. > :44:05.Afghan security forces, that means they will not be able to pay
:44:06. > :44:12.salaries. Of course that won a -- would be a major security concern. A
:44:13. > :44:17.security force of that size goes well beyond the financial capacity
:44:18. > :44:20.of the Afghan Government. And if we can't generate financial support,
:44:21. > :44:25.they will be faced with major problems. And this is the reason why
:44:26. > :44:29.I do believe that at the end of the day we will get the signature on the
:44:30. > :44:32.security agreement. It is interesting that you are confident
:44:33. > :44:42.about that. What does that then say about the behaviour of President
:44:43. > :44:46.Karzai, in initially assembly tribunal tribal leaders to ratify
:44:47. > :44:54.that, and then saying he would never sign it. Is that playing politics?
:44:55. > :45:03.Obviously it is politics but it is remarkable that representatives from
:45:04. > :45:09.the Afghan society at large conveyed a very clear message to President
:45:10. > :45:15.Karzai as well as the international community, we want an international
:45:16. > :45:19.military presence after that date, and we urge the President to sign as
:45:20. > :45:23.soon as possible. To go to the bottom lion, I don't think President
:45:24. > :45:28.Karzai will sign. So probably it will be for a new President, after
:45:29. > :45:33.the presidential elections to sign a security agreement that would allow
:45:34. > :45:39.us to stay after 2014. When you hear the things President Karzai says
:45:40. > :45:43.about this agreement. Saying he won't sign it, leaving the problem
:45:44. > :45:48.for his successor, about the sacrifice of NATO soldiers, his
:45:49. > :45:51.assertions that there was no improvement of security in the
:45:52. > :45:54.south, it would have been better if they had never gone to places like
:45:55. > :45:59.Helmand Province, you must despair at his statements sometimes?
:46:00. > :46:03.Personally I have an excellent relationship with President Karzai.
:46:04. > :46:12.But having said that, I also have to say that such statements are
:46:13. > :46:18.something like playing with fire. Because we shouldn't underestimate
:46:19. > :46:23.the damaging effect on public and political support for our presence
:46:24. > :46:30.in Afghanistan when people hear such statements. We have invested a lot
:46:31. > :46:34.in blood and treasure in Afghanistan. Also because of our own
:46:35. > :46:40.security, but through our efforts we have created a framework for a
:46:41. > :46:49.better Afghanistan. So honestly speaking I do think people in our
:46:50. > :46:55.countries would expect some lines of gratitude from the Afghan political
:46:56. > :46:59.leadership. There is another worry too, about Syria, after two
:47:00. > :47:04.shipments of chemical weapons under an international deal, Syria has
:47:05. > :47:09.stopped delivering. Citing security concerns. Some American decision
:47:10. > :47:14.makers think it may be time to reconsider military options. I
:47:15. > :47:19.really urge the Syrian Government to live up to its obligations according
:47:20. > :47:23.to the UN Security Council resolution. And I also hope the
:47:24. > :47:28.Russians will put a lot of pressure on the Syrian Government. When does
:47:29. > :47:32.that threat have to go back on the table do you think? If this deal
:47:33. > :47:39.continues to faulter? The Americans have declared that it is still on
:47:40. > :47:46.the table but I think we should give diplomacy a chance. Now the Syrian
:47:47. > :47:49.Government has actually agreed to eliminate chemical weapons. They
:47:50. > :47:53.have joined the international treaty against the use of chemical weapons,
:47:54. > :47:57.so far so good. But now it is a question about the implementation,
:47:58. > :48:09.and they must, of course, comply with the UN Security Council
:48:10. > :48:14.resolution. Lastly you are the head of a military-based organisation,
:48:15. > :48:18.how do you feel that the leaders of that organisation are reluctant to
:48:19. > :48:22.commit their troops to new military adventures, and to pay the sort of
:48:23. > :48:27.amount they used to pay towards their common defence? When
:48:28. > :48:32.Governments are forced to cut deficits and carry through deep cuts
:48:33. > :48:39.across the board, it is difficult to suggest that defence should be
:48:40. > :48:41.exempted, but it is matter of concern taking into account that
:48:42. > :48:45.other powers in the world invest more and more in security and
:48:46. > :48:50.defence, and at the end of the day it means that we will have less
:48:51. > :48:55.influence on the international scene, the vacuum will be filled by
:48:56. > :49:04.other powers, and they do not necessarily share our interests and
:49:05. > :49:06.our values. That was the secretary-general of NATO. The front
:49:07. > :49:33.pages now: That's all from us, the video we
:49:34. > :49:37.will leave you with tonight, it has been suggested, may be a fake, not
:49:38. > :49:42.that it bothers us, but if it is real then the people involved are
:49:43. > :49:51.very stupid indeed. You decide. Good night.