:00:07. > :00:11.Get The Chancellor rode into Scotland bearing bad news, there
:00:12. > :00:14.will be no currency union if Scotland votes for independence. And
:00:15. > :00:21.he wasn't the only one being emphatic. If Scotland walks away
:00:22. > :00:24.from the UK, it walks away from the UK pound. Scotland will not keep the
:00:25. > :00:27.pound if Scotland chooses independence. It is not going to
:00:28. > :00:30.happen and it is very important that everyone has that in mind when they
:00:31. > :00:33.are thinking about how they are going to cast their votes in
:00:34. > :00:38.September. That is clear then, so is there a Plan B? I will be asking
:00:39. > :00:48.Scotland's First Minister, Alex Salmond. Also tonight our aid convoy
:00:49. > :00:55.-- are aid convoys to Syria Trojan horses. These are the first pictures
:00:56. > :01:00.to be taken of the protestors. Paintings by the artist Richard
:01:01. > :01:05.Hamilton, inspired by Newsnight, as a major retrospective opens. He's
:01:06. > :01:15.being lauded as the greatest artist of the 20th century. We have our
:01:16. > :01:19.guests to discuss. Good evening. When it comes to
:01:20. > :01:22.writing the history of the referendum on Scottish independence,
:01:23. > :01:28.it might not be the politicians who command most attention, but a
:01:29. > :01:35.Whitehall mandarin called Sir Nicholas Macpherson, in a highly
:01:36. > :01:40.unusual move a the Treasury Secretary came out and says
:01:41. > :01:45.categorically he strongly advises against a currency union as
:01:46. > :01:48.currently advocated if Scotland chooses independence. We report on
:01:49. > :02:06.the bombshell which George Osborne, Ed Balls and Danny Alexander happily
:02:07. > :02:11.dropped. England and Scotland have shared the
:02:12. > :02:17.pound sterling for 300 years. In 1707 the old Scottish coinage with
:02:18. > :02:23.thistles and lions rampant and its bruises and Stuarts was swept away.
:02:24. > :02:29.We go back to Robert the Bruce here. That is a Robert the Bruce coin? A
:02:30. > :02:33.penny from the 14th century. Yes. Might Scotland one day need to bring
:02:34. > :02:37.this back? For George Osborne's audacious assault on the idea of a
:02:38. > :02:42.shared currency post-independence has changed the debate here. So when
:02:43. > :02:46.the nationalists say the pound is as much ours as the rest of the UK's.
:02:47. > :02:50.Are they really saying that an independent Scotland could insist
:02:51. > :02:55.the tax-payers in a nation it had just voted to leave had to continue
:02:56. > :02:57.to back the currency of this new foreign country, had to consider the
:02:58. > :03:02.circumstances of this foreign country when setting their interest
:03:03. > :03:06.rates? Stand behind the banks of this foreign country as a lender of
:03:07. > :03:11.last resort, or stand behind its foreign Government when it needed
:03:12. > :03:17.public spending support? That is patently absurd. Supporters of the
:03:18. > :03:26.union took it as a welcome boost to a hitherto lacklustre "better
:03:27. > :03:29.together" campaign. I was pleased the UK Government came out with such
:03:30. > :03:33.a strong stand and made it very clear. Voters want to be clear about
:03:34. > :03:38.the position of each party in the future. So, in the event of a "yes"
:03:39. > :03:41.vote, would you be arguing for Scotland to be kicked out of the
:03:42. > :03:45.sterling zone? I would still want to be in the currency union if that was
:03:46. > :03:50.what happened. I would still choose to be in it. And I guess from my own
:03:51. > :03:54.perspective, being managed by Westminster and being, I guess, in
:03:55. > :04:01.some way part of the union is what I would be voting for any way. Would a
:04:02. > :04:07."yes" vote force the Westminster parties to reconsider? Of course the
:04:08. > :04:10.nationalists insist, it is obvious. So it is your belief despite what
:04:11. > :04:15.they have said today these three Westminster parties, in the event of
:04:16. > :04:19.a "yes" vote, would just change their minds? Absolutely. I think it
:04:20. > :04:27.is political posturing, it is clear to me that in the cold light of day
:04:28. > :04:32.when Scotland votes "yes", that there will be a currency union. It
:04:33. > :04:35.is described astrological, and business would describe it as
:04:36. > :04:39.sensible. George Osborne can claim a united Westminster front, with
:04:40. > :04:45.support today from both Labour and the Liberal Democrats. There's a
:04:46. > :04:52.high risk in that. It is easy to antagonise Scotland with perceived
:04:53. > :04:55.diktats from a distant London elite. The SNP are recent converts to the
:04:56. > :04:59.idea of a sterling zone. Until a few years ago their policy was to ditch
:05:00. > :05:04.the pound and join the euro. But there is a third way, the countries
:05:05. > :05:07.that are most comparable to Scotland are the Nordic countries, just
:05:08. > :05:12.across the North Sea from here, and three of the four of them, Sweden,
:05:13. > :05:16.Denmark and Norway, have kept their own independent currency. Denmark,
:05:17. > :05:22.for example, pegs the value of its krona to that of the euro, thus
:05:23. > :05:26.ceding some national sovereignty. That doesn't mean it is not an
:05:27. > :05:31.independent state. Why has the SNP not grasped this thistle of an
:05:32. > :05:35.independent Scottish pound? It seems to me that they have no Plan B and
:05:36. > :05:39.have never thought of what was bound to happen, and that was a "no", from
:05:40. > :05:44.whichever Government was in Westminster. And I can't explain why
:05:45. > :05:48.someone who is as clever in politics as Alex Salmond didn't understand
:05:49. > :05:53.that you had to have a contingency. And there is no problem in having a
:05:54. > :05:58.separate Scottish currency. I mean we have bank notes at the moment,
:05:59. > :06:03.why we don't print a separate Scottish currency I don't
:06:04. > :06:09.understand. Scotland abandoned its separate currency 300 years ago and
:06:10. > :06:12.few now openly advocate the return. George Osborne has told Alex Salmond
:06:13. > :06:16.he needs a Plan B. But in telling the Scots bluntly what they can and
:06:17. > :06:22.can't have, he's also taken quite a risk. The Scottish First Minister
:06:23. > :06:25.minister joins us from Aberdeen. Good evening Alex Salmond. So it is
:06:26. > :06:30.over, there will be no currency union if Scotland votes for
:06:31. > :06:34.independence. These are not words of a politician, but a Treasury
:06:35. > :06:38.mandarin. This is economics not politics? Let's deal with the three
:06:39. > :06:42.politicians first, I see it as bluff, bluster and bullying. Bluff
:06:43. > :06:47.because what they say now and what they say the day after a "yes" vote
:06:48. > :06:51.are two entirely different things. A bluster because we are expected to
:06:52. > :06:55.believe that the George Osborne idea is to tell businesses in England
:06:56. > :06:59.next year at the UK general election that he wants to impose a new tax on
:07:00. > :07:03.them of several hundred million for the privilege of exporting their
:07:04. > :07:07.goods to Scotland. And bullying, because the days of Westminster
:07:08. > :07:12.politicians dictating to Scotland are over. In fact, one of my
:07:13. > :07:17.predecessors, a former First Minister, still a "no" voter at this
:07:18. > :07:21.stage, described it as "threatening" behaviour today. I think it will
:07:22. > :07:25.backfire spectacularly on the unionist politicians involved. Let's
:07:26. > :07:29.put it in a different perspective. In the perspective of a Whitehall
:07:30. > :07:32.mandarin who is not political but apolitical, he said it would not be
:07:33. > :07:37.good for the United Kingdom. He strongly advises there to be no
:07:38. > :07:41.currency union as the current position that you are taking, the
:07:42. > :07:45.one you advocate. Part of the problem here, Alex Salmond, is that
:07:46. > :07:48.you have said that you would take sterling but perhaps for a short, or
:07:49. > :07:52.limited period of time, in the letter which I'm sure you have read,
:07:53. > :07:58.he makes the point that if you would be a more permanent position on how
:07:59. > :08:02.long you would take sterling for there might be wriggle room and an
:08:03. > :08:09.answer. Why won't you negotiate and say we will take sterling for ho, 50
:08:10. > :08:13.years? I'm perfectly happy to negotiate now, but the only talks we
:08:14. > :08:16.have had have been technical talks with the truly independent Bank of
:08:17. > :08:20.England. I have been delighted in the progress of these technical
:08:21. > :08:25.talks. Could you say you are happy to negotiate now and could you say
:08:26. > :08:29.that? For more than a year now the Scottish Government has been saying
:08:30. > :08:32.to Whitehall, not just the mandarins but the politicians, we would be
:08:33. > :08:35.very happy to negotiate the guidelines. Very happy indeed. They
:08:36. > :08:41.have been saying they won't pre-negotiate on anything. And the
:08:42. > :08:53.on exception to that of course two years ago was Mervyn King. I'm very
:08:54. > :09:00.happy to have these negotiations. I thought the wriggle room in Sir
:09:01. > :09:03.Macpherson's letters surely was where what he said as currently
:09:04. > :09:08.proposed. The wriggle room was coming from the senior mandarin, I
:09:09. > :09:12.thought rather than anything else. I just want to absolutely talk to you
:09:13. > :09:15.about this quite specifically, you are very clear, you want to be open
:09:16. > :09:20.and up front, you say there are negotiations. Are you prepared to
:09:21. > :09:23.put an actual time limit on sterling, are you prepared to say
:09:24. > :09:27.that you would take sterling for 40 or 50 years? If you look at the
:09:28. > :09:30.framework that the fiscal commission working group proposed, it was
:09:31. > :09:33.designed to last the test of time. There is a range of options of
:09:34. > :09:37.currency options for Scotland, the best one we think for Scotland, and
:09:38. > :09:41.indeed for the rest of the United Kingdom, is the sterling zone that
:09:42. > :09:46.we accepted from the fiscal commission. Would you put a time
:09:47. > :09:49.limit of say half a century? We are perfectly prepared to have these
:09:50. > :09:52.negotiations now. So you won't say it? You asked me first if we would
:09:53. > :09:55.have negotiation, I said yes, I have also pointed out if you look at the
:09:56. > :10:00.fiscal commission working group, it is not a temporary arrangement as
:10:01. > :10:04.proposed, as for the argument, incident low, that there are other
:10:05. > :10:07.politicians who want to do different things, I mean I was in the House of
:10:08. > :10:10.Commons when the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, wanted to join the euro
:10:11. > :10:14.and the Chancellor of the Exchequer wanted to, Gordon Brown, wanted to
:10:15. > :10:17.keep sterling. That is part of the democratic process. But perfectly
:10:18. > :10:20.happy to have these negotiations. In the interests of Scotland, and in
:10:21. > :10:23.the interests of the people of England as well. Because I know that
:10:24. > :10:29.George Osborne doesn't speak for Scotland. I actually think he spes
:10:30. > :10:36.for the people or businesses of England who he wants to impose the
:10:37. > :10:39.George Osborne tax on. You have said in the past if there was to be no
:10:40. > :10:45.currency union there would be no paying up of Scotland's share of the
:10:46. > :10:51.?1. Six trillion debt. If there is no currency union in the event of a
:10:52. > :10:55."yes" vote in Scotland, will you or will you not pay a share of the
:10:56. > :11:00.debt? Our proposition is that we should have a share of the assets
:11:01. > :11:03.and of the liabilities. That is what is fair and reasonable, that is our
:11:04. > :11:09.proposition asset out in the White Paperment one of these assets is
:11:10. > :11:14.un-- paper, one of these assets is the Bank of England, it holds title
:11:15. > :11:17.of a third of UK debt at the moment. It is George Osborne who seems to be
:11:18. > :11:20.suggesting that we are not entitled to a share that have asset, but he
:11:21. > :11:24.wants to land us with all the liabilities. So you won't pay the
:11:25. > :11:27.debt? Our proposition, which is in the interests we believe of Scotland
:11:28. > :11:32.and the rest of the UK is to have a share of the assets and a share of
:11:33. > :11:34.the liabilities. That is our proposition. It is George Osborne
:11:35. > :11:38.putting forward the one-sided argument that we're not entitled to
:11:39. > :11:41.a share of the asset, but wants us to be stuck with the liabilities.
:11:42. > :11:46.Clearly that is not fair or reasonable. That is not fair, let's
:11:47. > :11:50.assume you would pay the debt, Sir Macpherson says in the letter that
:11:51. > :11:54.even if Scotland did not pay its share of the ?1. Six trillion debt,
:11:55. > :11:58.it would still be better than having a currency union. It would still be
:11:59. > :12:06.better not to have that money, than to have a currency union with
:12:07. > :12:10.Scotland. The wriggle room is as proposed. I thought the interesting
:12:11. > :12:13.thing about dragging a civil servant into this as a shield for George
:12:14. > :12:17.Osborne, is what will Sir Nicholas Macpherson do when somebody asks him
:12:18. > :12:20.for his advice to the Chancellor on the economic consequences of a
:12:21. > :12:23.withdrawal from the European Union. Now we set this rather strange
:12:24. > :12:28.precedent. But we're very happy to have negotiations and to clarify
:12:29. > :12:31.these things so that the senior mandarin understands what exactly
:12:32. > :12:39.we're proposing, because in some elements of his letter he seems to
:12:40. > :12:44.misunderstand that very badly. Let's move on to what else was said, that
:12:45. > :12:49.it is unbelievable that Alex Salmond wouldn't have a Plan B. Have you a
:12:50. > :12:52.Plan B without currency union? The fiscal commission working group set
:12:53. > :12:55.out a range of currency options to Scotland. We chose what they said
:12:56. > :12:59.was the best option, which was to have a sterling area between
:13:00. > :13:03.Scotland and the rest of the UK. The key thing we are looking at is not
:13:04. > :13:07.to have transaction cost, not transactions costs for Scottish
:13:08. > :13:11.businesses exporting to England, our major market, or English businesses
:13:12. > :13:15.exporting to Scotland. But Denmark bears these transactions costs, and
:13:16. > :13:19.Denmark is a different situation, as you look to Scandinavia for a lot,
:13:20. > :13:24.Denmark has an independent currency pegged to the euro, why not have an
:13:25. > :13:27.independent currency pegged to sterling? I was explaining that, the
:13:28. > :13:32.fiscal commission looked at that option, it is a credible option,
:13:33. > :13:36.nobody is saying it is not. But the best option is not to have the
:13:37. > :13:40.transaction cost, which would be important for Scotland but also for
:13:41. > :13:45.businesses for England. What George Osborne and Ed Balls are saying is
:13:46. > :13:48.they are going to have an Ed and George tax of several hundred
:13:49. > :13:51.million pounds of businesses in England for exporting to Scotland.
:13:52. > :13:55.That is incredible and nobody in England will accept that. Which is
:13:56. > :14:00.why I think... We are in a situation of five months from a referendum,
:14:01. > :14:03.where you are making threats about assets and liabilities as much as
:14:04. > :14:06.George Osborne might be making threats, people in Scotland want a
:14:07. > :14:12.detailed argument, and the problem is that on something like the debt,
:14:13. > :14:16.what Sir Nicholas Macpherson says, if you do not take a share of the
:14:17. > :14:19.debt then your credibility in the markets and everything else will not
:14:20. > :14:23.be substantial. You will attract higher rates of interest and so
:14:24. > :14:27.forth, it is not a tenable position to hold? Well can I put it forward
:14:28. > :14:31.again, our position is we should share assets and liabilities. It is
:14:32. > :14:34.George Osborne who is suggesting the one-sided position that some how we
:14:35. > :14:38.are not entitled to a share of assets, but he wants to stick us
:14:39. > :14:42.with the liabilities. I'm sure Nicholas Macpherson was working for
:14:43. > :14:46.me as opposed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer then he would see the
:14:47. > :14:48.fairness and justice of that position. As for interest rates in
:14:49. > :14:53.terms of the international market place, you mentioned the Nordic
:14:54. > :14:57.countries, Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Belgium, they all have lower
:14:58. > :15:01.interest rates and bond yields at the present moment than the UK. The
:15:02. > :15:06.UK interest rates are not unreasonable, but they are not as
:15:07. > :15:12.God as many other -- good as many other countries at the moment. Let's
:15:13. > :15:24.get the issues into perspective. The British suicide bomber who died
:15:25. > :15:29.in an assault on Aleppo last week, Abdul Waheed Majid. He came from
:15:30. > :15:33.England on an aid mission. It is said that no-one should travel to
:15:34. > :15:37.Syria, even for humanitarian purposes, that should be left to the
:15:38. > :15:42.big agencies, the Red Cross and others. We will discuss that with
:15:43. > :15:46.the head of a Croydon-based Muslim charity and my guests. Richard
:15:47. > :15:52.Watson, how many fighters are going from the UK to Syria this way or
:15:53. > :15:54.generally, first of all? The security sources have been
:15:55. > :16:01.consistently briefing over the last few months that the figure is in the
:16:02. > :16:04.low hundreds, I take that to mean 100-1200. I detect a change here.
:16:05. > :16:08.Security sources are saying it is not the low hundreds it is the
:16:09. > :16:13.mid-hundreds, I suggested to my sources this might be as many as 500
:16:14. > :16:19.British fighters in Syria, they said that still might be a bit high. But
:16:20. > :16:25.a realistic estimate, I think, is 300-400 fighters Syria. It was an
:16:26. > :16:28.accelerating trend? That is what is concerning the authorities at the
:16:29. > :16:32.moment. Tell me more, what do we know about the Crawley suicide
:16:33. > :16:38.bomber? His wider family say he was delivering aid in Syria. I think if
:16:39. > :16:50.you look at his connections, it is quite interesting. I saw that the
:16:51. > :16:53.former leader of groups out there is he was known to them. I understand
:16:54. > :16:57.he travelled to Syria with a relation of somebody who is linked
:16:58. > :17:01.to an old generation of Jihadists from Crawley, and don't forget that
:17:02. > :17:06.Crawley has always been a centre for extremism in some respects. It was
:17:07. > :17:10.the origins of the fertiliser bomb plot in 2004. Some people were
:17:11. > :17:12.arrested in that. I think these wider Jihadist links are quite
:17:13. > :17:18.interesting. People will be concerned about this idea that the
:17:19. > :17:23.convoys are Trojan horses? Yeah, my sources are saying that convoys have
:17:24. > :17:27.been used as a way for some fighters to enter Syria to join the conflict.
:17:28. > :17:34.But I should say, that the vast majority of people who go on convoys
:17:35. > :17:38.simply want to deliver aid to alleviate horrendous suffering in
:17:39. > :17:42.Syria. I mean, it is undoubtedly true, I think, that some
:17:43. > :17:45.opportunists have used convoys to get into Syria. One of my sources
:17:46. > :17:50.recently told me, for example, about an aid convoy, he said that seven
:17:51. > :17:53.individuals had not come back on the return journey. To I think that
:17:54. > :17:56.raises big questions about vetting and raises big questions about
:17:57. > :18:04.counting them in and counting them out. But by and large, how are
:18:05. > :18:08.getting into Syria? It is a variety of means. Aid convoys I'm told is
:18:09. > :18:13.one route. Another route is fighters will go directly. I'm also told it
:18:14. > :18:21.is very rare that fighters will go out from the UK to join one of the
:18:22. > :18:27.groups like news a and ISIS -- Nusra and Isis. They will be introduced to
:18:28. > :18:31.the right people out there and appetites whetted for Jihad in the
:18:32. > :18:35.theatre. To discuss these aid convoys travelling to Syria and
:18:36. > :18:46.borders I'm joined by the MP for Crawley Henry Smith, and Imam Qasim
:18:47. > :18:50.Rashid, whose chaired the tion have sent convoys to Syria. How concerned
:18:51. > :18:56.are you about infiltration on convoys? I think it is the great
:18:57. > :19:01.responsibility of charity organisations to make sure whenever
:19:02. > :19:08.they want to take any steps into volatile situations they do proper
:19:09. > :19:12.checks they do due diligence they follow the governance and procedures
:19:13. > :19:17.and everything. If trustees have made proper policies and procedures
:19:18. > :19:27.and they are following their criterias, then I think that is a
:19:28. > :19:30.minimising the risks. There are some individual who is would make the
:19:31. > :19:38.most out of these opportunities to go through the aid convoys. Having
:19:39. > :19:42.these checks will minimise. Henry Smith says, having convoys where
:19:43. > :19:46.seven people didn't come back. It is not illegal, they could have decided
:19:47. > :19:49.just to stay on. But you were so concerned you wanted it stopped? It
:19:50. > :19:54.is important that when people want to give aid to Syria and we have
:19:55. > :19:58.seen obviously some appalling images on television and appalling reports
:19:59. > :20:04.of the violence in that Civil War, people naturally want to assist. But
:20:05. > :20:09.at best it is very dangerous for people to go to Syria unless they
:20:10. > :20:15.are backed by a serious aid organisation. At worst it can be
:20:16. > :20:20.tempting for those who may become radicalised. Therefore what I'm
:20:21. > :20:25.saying is, yes, we need to support the refugees in the Syrian crisis,
:20:26. > :20:30.but we should be doing that through the well-established organisations
:20:31. > :20:35.such as the Red Crescent, the UN Human Rights Commission, and other
:20:36. > :20:41.such organisations. But presumably the charities commission, and there
:20:42. > :20:43.are particular rules and regulations about vetting the people on convoys,
:20:44. > :20:48.you are concerned that doesn't always happen? I think Syria is
:20:49. > :20:52.probably the most dangerous place there is in the world right now. It
:20:53. > :20:56.is not somewhere that people should be loading up a few trucks and
:20:57. > :21:03.driving across the continent to get there. This is a very serious Civil
:21:04. > :21:07.War and I think really the Governmental support and the main
:21:08. > :21:11.international agency support are the ones who should be delivering that
:21:12. > :21:15.much-needed aid to refugees. You would disagree and say convoys
:21:16. > :21:22.should go? I would say, yes, convoys should go. The problem is those
:21:23. > :21:26.convoys which go themselves without the backing of any registered
:21:27. > :21:34.charity organisation, which has a track record of delivering aid in
:21:35. > :21:38.these types of situations. Or going through a charity which has not
:21:39. > :21:42.submitted annual accounts to the Charity Commission, which cannot be
:21:43. > :21:48.verified, that is where the problem comes. There clearly has been
:21:49. > :21:52.breaches, there clearly have been problems, and it may not be with
:21:53. > :21:55.your charity, of course, but you can't stop someone who gets there
:21:56. > :22:02.then becoming radicalised when they see what's there, can you? No you
:22:03. > :22:07.can't, but you can try to reduce the risk by having a process and
:22:08. > :22:13.policies in place. I think more important it is for donors to
:22:14. > :22:18.understand the importance of donating wisely. If they donate wise
:22:19. > :22:23.low, whether it is the goods, items for aid convoys to take with them,
:22:24. > :22:27.whether it is money? Do you think there would be anger if the convoys
:22:28. > :22:30.were banned that people see this is actually very little that is being
:22:31. > :22:33.done and this is the way it can help. Do you think it would be a be
:22:34. > :22:36.proproand anger directed towards people who wanted the convoys
:22:37. > :22:41.stopped? There would be anger, if there is action there is reaction to
:22:42. > :22:46.that. Henry Smith? It is not about stopping aid. But the convoys? I'm
:22:47. > :22:50.proud this country is the second-largest donor to help the
:22:51. > :22:53.refugee crisis from the Syrian Civil War. It is important for the safety
:22:54. > :22:59.of those going to Syria and also important for the security of this
:23:00. > :23:05.country that aid should be delivered through organisations that are best
:23:06. > :23:08.able to cope with, as I say, probably the most dangerous
:23:09. > :23:11.situation we have in the world at the moment. But one of your primary
:23:12. > :23:17.concerns though is the idea that people on the convoy could either be
:23:18. > :23:22.using it as a Trojan horse or be radicalised when they get there That
:23:23. > :23:26.is certainly the case and it was borne out with the event last
:23:27. > :23:30.Thursday. In my constituency, community relations are actually
:23:31. > :23:35.extremely good. There is good relations in terms of different
:23:36. > :23:40.faiths and different ethnic backgrounds and I'm actually very
:23:41. > :23:46.pleased to represent such a cohesive and yet diverse community. What is
:23:47. > :23:50.important though is where within individual faith communities there
:23:51. > :23:53.may be signs of some individuals becoming radicalised, that actually
:23:54. > :24:00.those communities work with the police to ensure that extremist
:24:01. > :24:05.views don't gain traction. Thank you very much. Deeply regrettable, that
:24:06. > :24:10.is how the US officials described the freeing today of 65 detainees
:24:11. > :24:13.from Bagram prison. America maintains the prisoners were
:24:14. > :24:17.responsible for killing Afghan civilians and security personnel as
:24:18. > :24:20.well as coalition troops. But the Afghan authorities, who now run the
:24:21. > :24:24.jail, say the evidence is too flimsy to continue holding the men. The
:24:25. > :24:28.Afghan President went so far as to call the prison a Taliban-making
:24:29. > :24:35.factory, turning ordinary Afghans against their Government. The BBC
:24:36. > :24:43.has one of the few journalists allowed inside Bagram's prison
:24:44. > :24:48.walls. Bagram maximum security prison outside Kabul, some have
:24:49. > :24:53.called it Afghanistan's Guantanamo Bay. It holds what the west calls
:24:54. > :24:57."high-value targets", many caught on the battlefield. Originally built
:24:58. > :25:02.and run by the Americans, up until now no film crews have ever been
:25:03. > :25:06.allowed in here. It has takep me more than two years to try to gain
:25:07. > :25:12.access to Bagram prison, it was only when it fell into Afghan control
:25:13. > :25:17.that I'm now able to gain access. But as foreign military forces
:25:18. > :25:21.withdrew, a toxic political row has erupted over what to do with
:25:22. > :25:25.hundreds of suspected Taliban insurgents imprisoned here. People
:25:26. > :25:29.who have come out of the prison have told me this is a prison where they
:25:30. > :25:34.take innocent Afghans and turn them against their own country and
:25:35. > :25:38.Government. The Afghan state has been released detainees, men the
:25:39. > :25:44.Americans say have whether or notted blood on their -- have blood on
:25:45. > :25:47.their hands. We are releasing people back into the fight who are clearly
:25:48. > :25:57.hardcore terrorists. Most of these men have been held without trial,
:25:58. > :26:04.some for many years. So what is Bagram Prise some actually like? The
:26:05. > :26:14.facility is located just outside the sprawling American-controlled Bagram
:26:15. > :26:18.airbaseled Bagram airbase. US forces still oversee the sell blocks
:26:19. > :26:22.housing foreign combatants and they are also in control of all the
:26:23. > :26:29.extensive perimeter security systems. When I arrived it was
:26:30. > :26:33.visiting time. Many of these civilian families had to cross the
:26:34. > :26:39.country in order to spend less than an hour face-to-face with their
:26:40. > :26:43.incarcerated male relatives. The prisoners held here are considered
:26:44. > :26:53.by western forces to be among the most dangerous Taliban insurgents in
:26:54. > :26:58.the country. My guide was a General, the Afghan Army commander in overall
:26:59. > :27:08.charge of this place. When I was shown around Bagram Prison, it still
:27:09. > :27:12.held some 1,443 inmates. This place was only built four years ago, and
:27:13. > :27:17.the overall conditions here were much better than anything I had seen
:27:18. > :27:30.elsewhere in Afghanistan's notoriously run down penal system.
:27:31. > :27:41.The prisoners were allowed one hour of outside exercise a day. There was
:27:42. > :27:45.even an orchard for the inmates. But there are strict rules here and
:27:46. > :27:55.breaking them is not visible. Especially not rule number 7. Bagram
:27:56. > :28:01.is also a very intrusive facility, all area are covered by CCTV. The
:28:02. > :28:08.roofs of cell blocks are grid, all prisoner communications are
:28:09. > :28:14.monitored, very obviously so. I first met some inmates in the
:28:15. > :28:20.medical wing. All those waiting for treatment in this nearby holding pen
:28:21. > :28:25.were shackled, hand and foot. This man said he was a journalist and
:28:26. > :28:32.poet from Kandahar and arrested in a night raid by US forces. He has been
:28:33. > :28:34.held here for almost six months. TRANSLATION: If they have got
:28:35. > :28:39.evidence against me they should show it to me. They should take me to
:28:40. > :28:44.court and imprison me for life f that's what they want. But how can
:28:45. > :28:48.they just stick me here in Bagram for no reason? Detention without
:28:49. > :28:59.trial was the complaint I heard again and again here. And this was
:29:00. > :29:08.the visiting area where the families finally got some face-to-face time
:29:09. > :29:12.with their relatives. None of the prisoners are disabled. The
:29:13. > :29:17.wheelchairs are used to ferry the inmates around because the leg irons
:29:18. > :29:26.they wear means they cannot walk at speed. After the visits finished I
:29:27. > :29:32.met an inmate's mother. TRANSLATION: I feel very pad because of all this
:29:33. > :29:37.worrying about him. We are suffering from psychological problems now. Is
:29:38. > :29:42.this life? His father, brother and sister have come to see him and we
:29:43. > :29:49.all leave crying. It is very difficult to see our son like this.
:29:50. > :29:54.There are lots of others like my son here for God sake they should think
:29:55. > :30:01.about them, we have only had one court hearing in a year-and-a-half.
:30:02. > :30:05.This man said he was 16 and a simple shepherd from Helmand prove VIPs.
:30:06. > :30:09.The US military says he's a Taliban co-ordinator who conducted bomb
:30:10. > :30:14.attacks, they say he was caught with a firearm and insurgent propaganda
:30:15. > :30:17.on his mobile home, and tested positive for four types of
:30:18. > :30:24.explosives. Whatever the truth, after a year in Bagram prison his
:30:25. > :30:28.views on the United States have crystallised. TRANSLATION: I hate
:30:29. > :30:32.them because I'm here for no reason, of course I hate them, I want to ask
:30:33. > :30:36.them what is my crime, if they told me clearly what evidence they have
:30:37. > :30:46.against me, I wouldn't mind if they kept me for ten years, no-one is
:30:47. > :30:50.asking about that. I have to spend a year from my mother and father, what
:30:51. > :30:54.is the reason I ask. All the men here were among the 65 prisoners
:30:55. > :30:58.released today. The Americans are furious saying they represent an
:30:59. > :31:05.enduring security threat. Does this decision make you angry? It makes me
:31:06. > :31:11.angry and sad, angry that we're going to release people back out
:31:12. > :31:15.into the fight who clearly are hardcore terrorists. Many of these
:31:16. > :31:23.people were caught red handed, the tests on their fingers of explosives
:31:24. > :31:26.on their hands. It is not as if this was questionable, these are the
:31:27. > :31:33.hardcore of literally maybe over 1,000 that we have already released.
:31:34. > :31:36.But the Afghan authorities say that much of the evidence presented by
:31:37. > :31:44.the US military is insufficient to take to court. So the prisoners are
:31:45. > :31:48.being let go. It is an issue being taken personally at the highest
:31:49. > :31:53.political level. There is no denying that there are elements of Al-Qaeda
:31:54. > :31:58.and the Taliban still in that prison? No doubt, that there are
:31:59. > :32:03.also criminals who have been taken, but the number of those people who
:32:04. > :32:12.are criminals, real criminals, are a minority. And then, the very
:32:13. > :32:22.presence of this prison is against the of a gap constitution. Against
:32:23. > :32:32.all Afghan laws, and against the sovereignty. The men praying here
:32:33. > :32:35.have all now been released. But the Afghan decision to set them free in
:32:36. > :32:40.the face of strong American objections is a further example of
:32:41. > :32:46.just how sour the relationship between these supposed allies has
:32:47. > :32:54.become. You can see more of that report on Our World: Inside Bagram
:32:55. > :33:00.Prison shown on the BBC News Channel on Friday 28th of February. The
:33:01. > :33:04.polls have closed in the Wytheshawe by-election. The seat has been a
:33:05. > :33:08.Labour stronghold held by all that time by Paul Goggins until his
:33:09. > :33:12.sudden death in January. His party is expected to retain the seat
:33:13. > :33:19.easily, but who will come second? That is the big question. What news
:33:20. > :33:24.do you have at the count? Kirsty, what we are hearing is that Labour
:33:25. > :33:28.are going to win this evening and fairly comfortably by all accounts.
:33:29. > :33:32.It hasn't been a high turnout, I gather today on election day, but
:33:33. > :33:37.probably about half the postal votes have been returned. And what you can
:33:38. > :33:40.see behind me are people who are basically verifying the postal votes
:33:41. > :33:44.before they get round to counting them. There are quite a large number
:33:45. > :33:49.of postal votes in this constituency, 17,000, probably about
:33:50. > :33:53.half of those have been returned. But the sense I'm getting from all
:33:54. > :33:56.the parties is that Labour's on clear course for victory today. But
:33:57. > :34:00.it is the second position, I think, that people are really interested
:34:01. > :34:06.in, because UKIP have been napping at the Conservatives' heels in polls
:34:07. > :34:09.that were taken in the campaign? Yeah, absolutely, that really has
:34:10. > :34:15.been the question all along. How well will UKIP actually do in this
:34:16. > :34:21.contest. We wait to see. I think it is going to be fairly close between
:34:22. > :34:24.UKIP and the Tories. UKIP are confident they are going to come
:34:25. > :34:29.second here tonight. But let's be honest about this, UKIP have come
:34:30. > :34:34.second in several by-elections already this parliament. So I think
:34:35. > :34:37.what's more important here is how well have UKIP actually done as
:34:38. > :34:41.opposed to just whether they have come second or not. How far behind
:34:42. > :34:45.Labour are they, how far ahead of the Conservatives are they. UKIP
:34:46. > :34:50.want to establish themselves here as a party which is seen as the natural
:34:51. > :34:54.opposition to Labour in the north of England. I think if they want to do
:34:55. > :35:01.that then they have to have a pretty convincing result here this evening.
:35:02. > :35:06.And UKIP are looking fairly gloomy. They don't look like a party on the
:35:07. > :35:10.verge of victory. The deputy leader of UKIP who I was speaking to
:35:11. > :35:14.earlier was pretty angry, he feels that Labour has pretty much stitched
:35:15. > :35:18.this up through the postal vote, getting those returned.
:35:19. > :35:23.When you ask people who is the greatest artist of the 20th century
:35:24. > :35:29.the names tummingable out, Francis Bacon, Barbara Hepworth, Henry
:35:30. > :35:32.Moore, Lucian Freud. What about Richard Hamilton, labelled the
:35:33. > :35:36.father of the Pop Art Movement, constantly changing times and
:35:37. > :35:43.interrogating the world around him. He's finally having his moment.
:35:44. > :35:49.# I'm so tired # I haven't left a wink
:35:50. > :35:54.With it's one of the most iconic LP covers ever designed. The Beatles
:35:55. > :36:00.White Album was the work of this man, Richard Hamilton, a forerunner
:36:01. > :36:03.of the Pop Art movement and exploring the world. There was
:36:04. > :36:09.something artificial about painting, something. If it is essentially
:36:10. > :36:15.photographic, then it ought to be. And not a paint the simulation,
:36:16. > :36:20.because that was art. He died in 2011, but his star has never been
:36:21. > :36:27.higher. Today a retrospective of his work opened at Tate Modern, showing
:36:28. > :36:33.off his he can electic images and collages, including this painting,
:36:34. > :36:37.The Citizen, inspired by the Newsnight documentary into The Maze
:36:38. > :36:41.Prison in Northern Ireland. I have a fear that there is a possibility it
:36:42. > :36:48.will be shown as support for the IRA and the methods of the IRA. In fact
:36:49. > :36:53.I'm against violence of any form. Many in the art world now feel that
:36:54. > :36:57.such was Hamilton's influence on 20th century art, it is time for him
:36:58. > :37:06.to be considered the century's greatest artist. So is his mark
:37:07. > :37:16.greater than Lucian Freud or Francis Bacon? Who, if the market is the
:37:17. > :37:23.arbiter, win hands down. Joining me now is Lucian Freud's famous muse
:37:24. > :37:28.Sue Tilly, Guy Jennings and representing the state of Francis
:37:29. > :37:33.Bacon and author is Dr Rebecca Daniels. First of all, I would say
:37:34. > :37:40.that in the wider world his passing was hardly remarked upon, and now we
:37:41. > :37:44.have this explosion? I think inevitably he doesn't carry the same
:37:45. > :37:48.weight as Bacon or Freud because the market hasn't paid as much attention
:37:49. > :37:53.to him. The thing about Hamilton and the thing to understand about him,
:37:54. > :37:58.is how influential he was. Not only the father of Pop Art but concept
:37:59. > :38:02.actual art, installation art, he designed the White Album and some of
:38:03. > :38:05.the most iconic images that we recognise every day in our lives. Do
:38:06. > :38:10.you think that by that label, the label that we all knew about is
:38:11. > :38:14.being the father of Pop Art, it was reductive and did him more damage
:38:15. > :38:16.than anything else? It is important but not the most important thing
:38:17. > :38:20.about him. When you see the exhibition you see his absolute
:38:21. > :38:25.range? You look at what he did in the early 50s, he made the first
:38:26. > :38:32.great installation, growth and form was fantastic in 1951, that was Is
:38:33. > :38:37.Tomorrow. Then Hamilton basically said all art is thinking, he
:38:38. > :38:42.developed concept actual art, the Young British Artists are all down
:38:43. > :38:46.to Hamilton. Do you think the difference for Lucian Freud it was a
:38:47. > :38:53.more emotional thing, do you think Richard Hamilton is the greatest
:38:54. > :38:55.artist of the 20th century? It is difficult to compare, they are
:38:56. > :39:01.completely different artists, Lucian was a painter and testing himself on
:39:02. > :39:05.how to paint, you know, rather than Richard. He wasn't commenting? He
:39:06. > :39:08.wasn't a commitment calm person, really all his paintings were about
:39:09. > :39:19.training himself and testing himself to be able to do things more
:39:20. > :39:22.difficultly. Mr Hamilton was making things that were politic KACHLT I
:39:23. > :39:29.don't think he cared about being a painter, he wanted to make images
:39:30. > :39:35.that said what he was thinking. The thing about Francis Bacon, he
:39:36. > :39:39.referred back to classical art, he was much more the idea of what
:39:40. > :39:45.thinks as painter, a raconter, out on the lash a lot, he actually
:39:46. > :39:49.confirmed to that idea of the wild artist? That was only one side of
:39:50. > :39:53.him. He was extremely serious painter and he controlled his output
:39:54. > :39:58.very strenuously. If he didn't like painting he would simply destroy it.
:39:59. > :40:03.That resulted in having only roughly 580-odd paintings in existence. And
:40:04. > :40:07.hence they are rare in way. He changed his style quite often in
:40:08. > :40:10.different decades. I think that is part of the reason they are so
:40:11. > :40:14.highly sought after and going for so much money. Do you think the market
:40:15. > :40:18.is any real judge? It is a judge in the sense that it is people wanting
:40:19. > :40:22.the paintings. If you watch the bidding this evening, it started off
:40:23. > :40:26.in $2 million jumps and at the end they were going up in hundreds of
:40:27. > :40:32.thousands, they were desperate obviously to go to every last penny
:40:33. > :40:40.they go. This was the Portrait of George Dyer, executed in 1966, and I
:40:41. > :40:44.think we can see it now, it went for ?42 million? It is an extraordinary
:40:45. > :40:48.painting, and one of them from his best periods. When you look at the
:40:49. > :40:52.application of paint on it is extraordinary. There is a green
:40:53. > :40:58.brush stroke which is the outline of his arm and it goes up to his
:40:59. > :41:03.shoulder and swooshs into his mouth. The painting is complex layers of
:41:04. > :41:07.paint. What Bacon and Freud had is the idea of the articulation of the
:41:08. > :41:10.paint on the canvas, but then of course Richard Hamilton had that
:41:11. > :41:15.too? He had it, he was painter but he also enjoyed working in many
:41:16. > :41:24.media, he liked mixing his media, oil with collage, graphic work, he
:41:25. > :41:28.was a great print maker. He enjoyed the technique and mastery. He grew
:41:29. > :41:36.up from the design side of things. He was influenced by the bah house,
:41:37. > :41:42.he -- bah dbahaus, he wanted to take inspiration from that. This is an
:41:43. > :41:45.image of something quite differen this was his comment on modern
:41:46. > :41:51.popular culture? That is what he relished, he had a wry sense of
:41:52. > :41:56.humour about it, he neither endorsed popular culture or denounced it, he
:41:57. > :41:59.had a wry sense of humour about it. In a way Lucian Freud is almost a
:42:00. > :42:05.national treasure, Francis Bacon, people are a bit scared of him, but
:42:06. > :42:16.from Richard Hamilton, he wasn't a prophet in his own land but much
:42:17. > :42:22.more fated abroad. This exhibition is going to Madrid after it has been
:42:23. > :42:26.in the Tate, there is wonderful examples of his work in the Museum
:42:27. > :42:33.of Modern Art in New York. He's less well known in England than the wider
:42:34. > :42:37.world. Obviously so many amazing portraits that you sat for Lucian
:42:38. > :42:42.Freud, people commented, did they feel emotional about him as an
:42:43. > :42:45.artist and what you had done? I don't know, I took myself away from
:42:46. > :42:49.it really, I think it is not me. What did they say about him, did
:42:50. > :42:52.they feel an emotional connection with what he was doing? Yeah, I
:42:53. > :42:57.think he was one of the most fascinating people you could ever
:42:58. > :43:01.meet. I used to say to him please be on the TV, you are so fantastic.
:43:02. > :43:05.Please don't. Is that one of your favourites? That is my favourite
:43:06. > :43:08.one, I'm glad that is the most popular one, some I'm not so keen
:43:09. > :43:12.on. What does it meal to be a muse of one of the most popular painters?
:43:13. > :43:16.It is very weird, I don't like to think of myself as a muse. I think
:43:17. > :43:20.of muses to be wafty and thin and falling in love with the artist,
:43:21. > :43:25.none of that was me at all. I don't know why he liked me really. We were
:43:26. > :43:29.so lucky to have so much time and seeing how he worked. But Francis
:43:30. > :43:32.Bacon was a much more darker connection with the people that he
:43:33. > :43:36.was painting. And it wasn't really for them that he was doing it, was
:43:37. > :43:39.it? It wasn't totally dark, he painted people he knew very well.
:43:40. > :43:43.But he didn't paint them from life, he painted them from photographs. In
:43:44. > :43:46.that way there is a connection with Hamilton he was using contemporary
:43:47. > :43:53.media in his painting. It is just he did it then very privately in his
:43:54. > :43:55.studio, away from the person. Both all artists of course have
:43:56. > :44:00.influenced other artists, of course, but in the case of Richard Hamilton,
:44:01. > :44:04.in case he was the artist's artist, because you could talk about all the
:44:05. > :44:11.Young British Artists and all the concept actual art that followed,
:44:12. > :44:14.and also because of his champions of Duchamps and what he gave people? We
:44:15. > :44:17.are talking about the greatest artist of the 20th century, but the
:44:18. > :44:28.greatest British artist of the 20th century. I think it is Picasso,
:44:29. > :44:31.Duchamps and war hole. He brought him to the English-speaking world,
:44:32. > :44:36.but for him nothing else would have followed. He's your favourite? I
:44:37. > :44:41.love them all! Thank you very much indeed. And here is a wonderful
:44:42. > :44:46.portrait of Richard Hamilton, it is the work of David Bailey who will be
:44:47. > :44:51.talking to me, taking me around his major exhibition, Stardust for
:44:52. > :44:56.Monday's Newsnight. And we just finish with tomorrow morning's
:44:57. > :44:58.papers. We have climate change leading to global conflict yet the
:44:59. > :45:37.politicians squabble. That's all from us tonight, on the
:45:38. > :45:42.eve of Valentine's Day we will leave you with a reminder of Torvill and
:45:43. > :45:49.Dean's romantic skating routine to Ravel's Bolero, which the pair are
:45:50. > :45:55.recreating on the ice at Sarajevo 30 years after taking the gold of the
:45:56. > :46:20.winter Olympics. This is it recreated by animation.
:46:21. > :46:29.The weather is a little quieter for a time overnight. Here comes the
:46:30. > :46:30.next storm,