:00:00. > :00:10.A The confrontation between a pro-Russian President and largely
:00:11. > :00:14.pro-western demonstrators in Ukraine, looks as if it has come to
:00:15. > :00:19.a head tonight. 14 people are reported dead. Thousands of police
:00:20. > :00:24.are on the streets tonight in the centre of Kiev, protestors' tents
:00:25. > :00:26.were set on fire, and there is predictions from Government
:00:27. > :00:31.politicians that the demonstrations will be snuffed out tonight. Things
:00:32. > :00:37.have already turned fatally violent. Can the country decide which way it
:00:38. > :00:45.faces without further loss of life. And this... Calm yourself, man! The
:00:46. > :00:48.lion must get back in its den! The public claim to hate all this
:00:49. > :00:59.shouting, why do politicians think it is so big and clever? Farewell
:01:00. > :01:04.Scott, for yo march leads only to death. Scott of the Antarctic gained
:01:05. > :01:09.an immortality by failing to be the first man to the south pole. Now
:01:10. > :01:19.another Britain has made exactly the same journey, we will ask Ben
:01:20. > :01:24.Saunders what was he trying to provek Ben Saunders what was he
:01:25. > :01:27.trying to prove? The drawn out couldn't frontation between the
:01:28. > :01:31.President of the Ukraine and the protesters on the streets of his
:01:32. > :01:34.capital intensified today and violence is on going. The police
:01:35. > :01:40.storming the main camp right now. These are live pictures. 14 people
:01:41. > :01:46.are said to have died there. There are fires on the roads into the city
:01:47. > :01:54.and the hero of the protestor, the former heavyweight boxer, Mr Klitko
:01:55. > :01:57.is off to see the President. The television channel reporting the
:01:58. > :02:02.protests has shut down. Quite how and why the conflict suddenly
:02:03. > :02:06.intensified seems still unclear. Joining us now live from Kiev is our
:02:07. > :02:11.correspondent David Stern, it's too dangerous to broadcast outside so
:02:12. > :02:16.let's have a talk to him in the studio.
:02:17. > :02:22.What exactly set all this off? It is difficult to say what exactly set it
:02:23. > :02:28.all off. The violence started early this morning, when protestors tried
:02:29. > :02:31.to march on parliament where deputies were meeting to try to find
:02:32. > :02:34.a resolution or way out of the crisis. But it very quickly
:02:35. > :02:41.escalated. I was out on the streets this morning, as it raged out of
:02:42. > :02:44.control, and in contrast to earlier clashes between riot police and
:02:45. > :02:49.protestors, this was in a number of places. It would break out in one
:02:50. > :02:55.spot and then break out in another spot. I saw protestors hurling
:02:56. > :02:59.petrol bombs, bricks that they had ripped up from the street and the
:03:00. > :03:04.police were returning fire with rubber bullets and stun grenades,
:03:05. > :03:08.the sound was deafening. The smell of acrid smoke from burning tyres
:03:09. > :03:14.and also from the teargas was everywhere. And then the violence
:03:15. > :03:18.continues this evening with the protestors hunkered down in
:03:19. > :03:22.Independence Square, that is their base of operation, it has been since
:03:23. > :03:26.the protests began three months ago. At one end of the square the
:03:27. > :03:32.protestors and the riot police are fighting again. The question is now
:03:33. > :03:36.what will happen, will this he is can late further and will the
:03:37. > :03:41.divisions between the Ukrainian protestors and the Government become
:03:42. > :03:45.even greater? And will it carry over into Ukraine society as a whole.
:03:46. > :03:57.When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a sense of
:03:58. > :03:59.this being an endAnd will it carry over into Ukraine society as a
:04:00. > :04:02.whole. When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a
:04:03. > :04:08.sense of this being an end came It is difficult to say, people are
:04:09. > :04:11.talking about Civil War. We are not there yet, the violence is
:04:12. > :04:15.concentrated in Kiev, we have seen clashes in other cities. For the
:04:16. > :04:20.most part it hasn't carried over into the countryside. But Civil War
:04:21. > :04:24.is a possibility. So as I say, there seems to be a head being reached now
:04:25. > :04:28.and a decisive moment of sorts. We will probably see more decisive
:04:29. > :04:32.moments further down the road as well. Thank you very much for
:04:33. > :04:35.joining us. Alan Little has been following the day's events. His
:04:36. > :04:45.report contains some disturbing images. It is not clear what tipped
:04:46. > :04:49.this long stand-off into open conflict. But the escalation when it
:04:50. > :04:53.came was sudden, dramatic and deadly. Tonight Independence Square,
:04:54. > :04:58.where anti-Government protestors have been camped, largely peacefully
:04:59. > :05:02.for week, is burning. What began as an attempt to keep Ukraine on the
:05:03. > :05:07.path to mainstream European democracy, even to European Union
:05:08. > :05:13.membership one day has descended dangerously now into open civil
:05:14. > :05:20.conflict. Protestors tore cobble stones from the streets, police,
:05:21. > :05:24.defensive fired teargas round, used water canon, and some say live
:05:25. > :05:29.rounds to try to gain control of the streets. TRANSLATION: I think today
:05:30. > :05:34.after all this the people will rise up for real. You must understand for
:05:35. > :05:40.people to really rise up what is needed. It lasted hours, as the
:05:41. > :05:43.violence tore through the heart of Kiev, it was clear lives were being
:05:44. > :05:46.lost. Three dead bodies lay in the street, three more in a building
:05:47. > :05:49.close to the parliament. Hundreds are reported injured. The sight of
:05:50. > :05:53.police officers retreating injured and in fear of their lives will
:05:54. > :05:56.inflame opinion among those Ukrainians who support the
:05:57. > :06:01.Government, at present Viktor Yanukovych. As many, especially in
:06:02. > :06:06.the Russian speaking south and east of the Ukraine do. Reports that
:06:07. > :06:10.policemen have been killed tonight will harden attitudes further. Many
:06:11. > :06:14.in Ukraine's Government and crucially in Russia see the protests
:06:15. > :06:18.as a criminal and even terrorist enterprise, supported by western
:06:19. > :06:25.Intelligence Services. Ukraine is tonight more polarised than it has
:06:26. > :06:28.been for years. TRANSLATION: In this situation leaders of the opposition
:06:29. > :06:31.should take all responsibility for everything that is happening today
:06:32. > :06:36.on the streets of Kiev. Over the past two days they themselves
:06:37. > :06:41.announced today's march, which grew into a military confrontation.
:06:42. > :06:44.Earlier it seemed tension was easing, protesters had even begun
:06:45. > :06:48.leaving occupied buildings in return for guarantee they wouldn't be
:06:49. > :06:54.prosecuted. But in parliament, opposition MPs trying to change the
:06:55. > :06:57.constitution rein in the power of the President found their efforts
:06:58. > :07:05.thwarted by the Government. Scuffles broke out, soon the conflict spilled
:07:06. > :07:09.on to the streets. TRANSLATION: President Yanukovych must turn his
:07:10. > :07:12.facts into parliament as required by the constitution, to vote for our
:07:13. > :07:15.document and start solving the political crisis within parliament
:07:16. > :07:22.and not in the streets with clashes, riot police and Special Forces.
:07:23. > :07:25.Protests began in November when President Yanukovych, who has always
:07:26. > :07:31.been backed by Russia, rejected a deal with the European Union, in
:07:32. > :07:34.favour of closer ties with Moscow. Pro-democracy activists, especially
:07:35. > :07:37.in Kiev and the west of the country, which feels itself closer to the
:07:38. > :07:44.traditions of central Europe, saw that as a betrayal of Ukraine's
:07:45. > :07:47.democratisation. And its progress to the European mainstream. The
:07:48. > :07:52.conflict started about European integration and the question whether
:07:53. > :08:00.Ukraine should go east or west, but the course of events it is in a way
:08:01. > :08:04.united Ukraines from the two -- Ukrainians against corruption and
:08:05. > :08:09.excessive use of force, right now we see a struggle between the ruling
:08:10. > :08:14.regime and the protestors for human rights. But Ukraine is a country
:08:15. > :08:19.pulled in opposite directions by its neighbours. The magnetic draw of the
:08:20. > :08:25.European destiny offered by the EU is countered by the gravitational
:08:26. > :08:29.pull of Moscow. And in future a Russian sphere of influence. In the
:08:30. > :08:33.long run the Ukraine must find way to reconcile these two impulses. But
:08:34. > :08:37.tonight, and urgently, the Government and the opposition must
:08:38. > :08:43.find a way to pull the country back from the violence into which that
:08:44. > :08:52.divide has tipped it. We're joined now from Kiev by the opposition MP,
:08:53. > :08:57.from the UDA party, and by the professor from Yale University
:08:58. > :09:00.talking to us from Vienna. Can you tell me please first off what is the
:09:01. > :09:09.feeling like on the streets tonight, what is actually happening there? It
:09:10. > :09:13.is a large scale attack on the Midan, the main camp of the
:09:14. > :09:23.protestors. The fires have been going for more than four hours. One
:09:24. > :09:30.of the police were boasting to the Russian side that Midan will be done
:09:31. > :09:33.in a few hours but they continue. Klitschko the leader of the
:09:34. > :09:37.opposition and another opposition leader went to meet Mr Yanukovych
:09:38. > :09:46.and try to achieve some kind of ceasefire. But they, as far as I
:09:47. > :09:52.know, are still not met by Yanukovych, it is a continuation of
:09:53. > :10:04.violence still. Professor snider, you have made a long study of this,
:10:05. > :10:07.what is this conflict really about? It is fundamentally about the rule
:10:08. > :10:11.of law and the desire to live in place that is not corrupt, a place
:10:12. > :10:14.where they know the children will be in school and they won't have to
:10:15. > :10:20.bribe people. That is what they mean by Europe. They believe, many
:10:21. > :10:24.Ukrainians and most believe they are ruled by a corrupt regime and
:10:25. > :10:28.enriched itself from them, and in the last few weeks used violence
:10:29. > :10:31.against them. That is what the conflict is fundamentally about. On
:10:32. > :10:37.both sides there are now other actors who are highly engaged. In
:10:38. > :10:41.the Russian case probably over engaged.engaged. , , to an outsider
:10:42. > :10:47.looks extremely serious. When you have scenes like this on the streets
:10:48. > :10:53.of a capital city, it looks very bad indeed. This is a defining moment,
:10:54. > :10:58.do you think, professor, in how this confrontation is going to be
:10:59. > :11:04.resolved? Well this is as bad as it has gotten. This is as bad as
:11:05. > :11:07.anything has been in Ukraine, since Ukraine became an independent state
:11:08. > :11:11.a quarter of a century ago. This is the worst moment of violence in this
:11:12. > :11:16.series of protests. This could still get worse. The problem with today's
:11:17. > :11:18.choice to use violence against the protestors is that it is going to
:11:19. > :11:22.put Yanukovych in a position where he may have to choose whether or not
:11:23. > :11:32.to double down. It is really unclear to me, as I think it is to most
:11:33. > :11:36.observers is what to do next. Do you use more violence or begin
:11:37. > :11:40.negotiations? This is as bad as it has gotten, but there are more
:11:41. > :11:44.turning points ahead of us. Is it possible to see a resolution of this
:11:45. > :11:51.crisis while the President stays in power? Well, we had all our hopes
:11:52. > :11:59.for quite a long time, but actually probably one of the core reasons
:12:00. > :12:05.that it came to that violence and that aggressive behaviour is because
:12:06. > :12:11.Yanukovych and his entourage tried to ignore people's demands. For
:12:12. > :12:15.three months in a row we saw he met no demands from the protesters. It
:12:16. > :12:25.was simple at the beginning, actually punishment of those police
:12:26. > :12:29.officers that beat innocent students on November 30th. Then freeing older
:12:30. > :12:38.people who were in detention for political reasons. And also the
:12:39. > :12:43.Government who did really poorly economically and actually stopped
:12:44. > :12:47.the European integration. Those three conditions were very simple to
:12:48. > :12:56.meet, but the Government wanted to continue on its own ways. It came to
:12:57. > :12:59.that point of violence. The BBC learned today that the
:13:00. > :13:04.National Health Service is postponing the implementation of a
:13:05. > :13:08.new computer database. The NHS has blown billions of duff computer
:13:09. > :13:11.systems before. This scheme is controversial because so many people
:13:12. > :13:17.are worried about the implications of plans to share treatment records.
:13:18. > :13:21.Possibly even with drug companies. The Information campaign to reassure
:13:22. > :13:25.people hasn't been a screaming success, with some polls showing
:13:26. > :13:33.four out of five doctors don't even understand how the thing would work.
:13:34. > :13:36.Joining me now is our chief correspondent, you are just starting
:13:37. > :13:39.here. There is a whiff of panic about this. This system was meant to
:13:40. > :13:44.get going in days. It was designed to suck out your GP records into a
:13:45. > :13:49.central database where most of that information would be anonymously
:13:50. > :13:53.held. But it could be in a useable way, analysed and potentially
:13:54. > :13:57.revolutionally for researchers and one day for drug companies to look
:13:58. > :14:00.at patterns of disease, public health and the like. There is a
:14:01. > :14:04.logic here because a similar system already exists for hospital, linking
:14:05. > :14:08.up hospitals and GP surgeries where the majority of care takes place
:14:09. > :14:12.makes sense. In recent days the volume of complaints h soared,
:14:13. > :14:16.anxiety about potential data breaches and privacy, probably the
:14:17. > :14:19.trickyist complaint of all is made by doctors, that frankly, huge
:14:20. > :14:23.numbers of their patients hadn't a clue about what was about to happen
:14:24. > :14:29.and they didn't want to detend fend it in front of them. -- defend it in
:14:30. > :14:32.front of them. Those millions of leaflets doesn't seem to make a
:14:33. > :14:36.difference, as they came through with a pizza menu most didn't
:14:37. > :14:41.understand it was going to make changes. Have you had one? As a
:14:42. > :14:48.straw poll of two, I haven't had one so neither you, 0%. Here to discuss
:14:49. > :14:54.these issues is the GP representative for NHS England. This
:14:55. > :14:58.isn't going to happen now immediately. Is it going to happen
:14:59. > :15:05.for sure in six months time? I would absolutely hope so. OK so there is
:15:06. > :15:08.nothing wrong with the policy it is a question of the failure to
:15:09. > :15:12.communicate properly? It is amazing that something that has the
:15:13. > :15:17.potential to transform the way we look after patients, something that
:15:18. > :15:21.has been signed up by the major patient charities in this country
:15:22. > :15:25.and one of the only parts of the Health and Social Care Bill that the
:15:26. > :15:30.RCGP agreed to is having such bad press. My sense is it is caught up
:15:31. > :15:35.in the age of mistrust, it is caught up in a lot of noise that's going on
:15:36. > :15:39.around it, such as the mistrust happening around Snowden, and
:15:40. > :15:44.actually it is something that is very positive that will help deliver
:15:45. > :15:49.better patient care and better health services. Why have you so
:15:50. > :15:52.singularly failed to communicate that to the public? There is an
:15:53. > :15:56.issue there, of course there is. There has been failure to
:15:57. > :16:00.communicate this. As I have said, if I was to back, to look at how we can
:16:01. > :16:04.do this again, which actually we are going to do, we need to have a
:16:05. > :16:08.relook at it, a relook at how we are going to inform the public of the
:16:09. > :16:11.benefits of this programme. And actually start working with some of
:16:12. > :16:18.the patient organisations that are concerned about this, to highlight
:16:19. > :16:25.the real benefits to call all all of us. You would admit you have messed
:16:26. > :16:30.up the communication? I do think there has been an issue, but dare I
:16:31. > :16:35.blame the press. Why blame the mess, we haven't had them, take a poll of
:16:36. > :16:40.all the technicians, I don't think anyone has any of these things?
:16:41. > :16:43.There is major newspapers saying that police are getting access and
:16:44. > :16:45.the information will be sold to insurance companies and for
:16:46. > :16:51.commercial companies. It is misinformation. Can you give a
:16:52. > :16:54.guarantee it will never be sold to insurance companies? It is illegal
:16:55. > :16:58.to sell it for commercial purposes. There is no chance of it going to
:16:59. > :17:04.drug companies? It depend what is they want, they can have access to
:17:05. > :17:08.data now, if a drug company puts in an appropriate research protocol,
:17:09. > :17:12.they have a legitimate reason to look at this. We are not talking
:17:13. > :17:16.about drug companies to do it and then to sell you drugs and drop on
:17:17. > :17:19.your doorstep a drug you don't want. My question is whether it could be
:17:20. > :17:24.sold to drug companies? It will not be sold to drug companies. If you
:17:25. > :17:30.ask would a drug company, could a drug company have a legitimate use
:17:31. > :17:33.for information in monitoring long-term medications of course.
:17:34. > :17:39.Private healthcare providers? They will not get access to this data.
:17:40. > :17:42.All of them? Again, if a private health company wants to put in a
:17:43. > :17:46.legitimate research protocol that goes through the ethical and legal
:17:47. > :17:50.framework that anybody else has to, then they may potentionally have it
:17:51. > :17:53.if they want to do something. Commercial entities will
:17:54. > :17:57.potentionally have access? Commercial entities will not have
:17:58. > :18:02.access to this data in order to start selling you products, to drop,
:18:03. > :18:06.as you mentioned with the pizza, to drop advertising and material on
:18:07. > :18:09.your desk. No that is you, you have done that? Neither would insurance
:18:10. > :18:14.companies, neither will the police. This is for legitimate reasons, for
:18:15. > :18:20.the first time in the history of the NHS we will bring together data that
:18:21. > :18:23.is collected by myself in the practice with hospital data. The
:18:24. > :18:27.other thing people are concerned about is precisely how easy it would
:18:28. > :18:31.be to identify them. David Davis has already cited one case he has his
:18:32. > :18:37.nose broken five times, matched that up, the number of people with
:18:38. > :18:52.five-times broken nose is not very many, 100 or so? Yes, if you want to
:18:53. > :18:55.take very... What about dip -- dyptheria vaccinations and dates? If
:18:56. > :19:01.you are asking that vaccination and your date of birth, again it would
:19:02. > :19:04.be very difficult. Will people's postcodes be disclosed? The way the
:19:05. > :19:09.information, as your report said, it will be sucked up into a central
:19:10. > :19:14.computer system, postcode, NHS number will be taken up into a
:19:15. > :19:18.centralised system, in order to link it with the data that we have
:19:19. > :19:22.already in hospitals. If you want to use it for research purpose, you
:19:23. > :19:27.will have to go through proper ethical and legal process, that data
:19:28. > :19:32.will not be entified. It will be what's called pseudo anonymised,
:19:33. > :19:36.scrambled up. The only way you will have it is scrambled up data. When
:19:37. > :19:41.you look in an organisation like the National Security Agency in the
:19:42. > :19:45.United States, the most highly classified secrets in the world and
:19:46. > :19:50.yet still man can get in there and publish them wherever he likes. We
:19:51. > :19:53.can't have any confidences in these assurances you are giving? You have
:19:54. > :19:57.had it for 25 years. Can you do a better job of keeping secrets than
:19:58. > :20:00.the National Security Agency? Fortunately it is not my job because
:20:01. > :20:05.I don't understand computers. But for 25 years there hasn't been a
:20:06. > :20:09.breach of information to the level that you have just been decribing in
:20:10. > :20:12.the national security office. Do you know how many serious data breaches
:20:13. > :20:18.there have been in the last two years? I have been told, I do know,
:20:19. > :20:21.it was on the front page of a major newspaper. What were you told? I
:20:22. > :20:28.think there was something like 2,000 day if I remember rightly. Two
:20:29. > :20:34.million a year? Two million start of 2011 and now? The vast majority of
:20:35. > :20:38.those, the NHS needs to keep up with the times, the vast majority were
:20:39. > :20:45.notes left on the back of cars, data stick, computers with information
:20:46. > :20:49.not encrypted, what this is about is a safe, secure, legally binding
:20:50. > :20:52.system held within the information centre which, as I have said up
:20:53. > :21:01.until now, has not had a data breach. What's wrong with Wales, if
:21:02. > :21:04.you wanted to keep a mouthful of teeth it wasn't a question you asked
:21:05. > :21:09.there about this time of night. Now the chances are you will find plenty
:21:10. > :21:12.Welsh people trying to give an answer. Wales is in trouble,
:21:13. > :21:16.particularly in education. As its ambitions have grown, its
:21:17. > :21:20.achievements have tumbled. A committee of the Welsh great and
:21:21. > :21:23.good reports very soon on whether the cure for the failures of the
:21:24. > :21:30.devolved Government of Wales is to give it more power. John Humphreys
:21:31. > :21:43.who began his journalistic career as a cub reporter on the Mabinogion has
:21:44. > :21:46.been back. A century ago Wales had two things
:21:47. > :21:50.in abundance, coal and confidence. The one a consequence of the other.
:21:51. > :21:54.This port in Cardiff exported more coal than any other port in the
:21:55. > :21:59.world. It came from the Welsh valleys, just north of here. Every
:22:00. > :22:05.other village pretty much had its own colliery. Now they have gone.
:22:06. > :22:16.And with the coal has gone much of that confidence. The economy was
:22:17. > :22:20.devastated. And yet, what you won't find in
:22:21. > :22:27.Wales is many people had amenting the good old days. Because they
:22:28. > :22:32.weren't good. Too many miners were killed in accidents, far too many
:22:33. > :22:38.died slow deaths from the dust in their links. Promises were made when
:22:39. > :22:45.the pits closed and the miners' jobs went with them, there would be new
:22:46. > :22:49.jobs. But a town like Merthyr, built on coal and iron and once the
:22:50. > :22:53.richest town in Wales, has gone through some terrible times and is
:22:54. > :23:09.still in a bad way. And what has devolution done for Merthyr and for
:23:10. > :23:16.Wales? (Children speak in Welsh a welcome) The Welsh heritage at least
:23:17. > :23:20.as far as mining is concerned has goner? I think it is a shame. You
:23:21. > :23:26.want your boy to go down the pit, I bet you wouldn't? No, but I think
:23:27. > :23:31.there has been a loss to the valleys with a lot of self-respect and
:23:32. > :23:35.industry has gone. It is part of our culture and heritage, it is part of
:23:36. > :23:38.our identity. If you speak to some people in Merthyr and in the
:23:39. > :23:45.concerning valleys, they have lost a sense of identity. There is a loss
:23:46. > :23:52.because there aren't the stilled jobs they want to do. Jane's son is
:23:53. > :23:58.at this school in Merthyr, a lovely little school doing well, but there
:23:59. > :24:05.are many struggling. A recent OECD report found that Welsh education
:24:06. > :24:07.had crashed down the PISA international league table, way
:24:08. > :24:14.behind the rest of the UK in reading, maths and science. School
:24:15. > :24:19.inspections in Wales found that one in four secondary schools were
:24:20. > :24:23.unsatisfactory. And many blamed the changes brought in by the first
:24:24. > :24:31.devolved Government 15 years ago, led by Labour ever since. At one
:24:32. > :24:35.time we, I include myself in this, were immensely proud of what was
:24:36. > :24:43.happening in schools throughout Wales. After deaf illusion what? I
:24:44. > :24:47.think -- after devolution, what? When the Government came in they
:24:48. > :24:52.were optimistic about what could be achieved in Wales. We have had
:24:53. > :24:56.success, in some schools they tended to abandon the direct teaching of
:24:57. > :25:01.phonics that we talked about earlier. I think that was perhaps
:25:02. > :25:06.one of the mistakes that people made at that time. During the years I
:25:07. > :25:10.think the Welsh Assembly has tried to produce a lot of initiatives.
:25:11. > :25:22.Sometimes they haven't always given them a chance to embed. They haven't
:25:23. > :25:25.always consulted with teachers at grassroots levels. We do have
:25:26. > :25:29.schools with high standards and the challenge, I feel, for the Welsh
:25:30. > :25:33.Assembly, to ensure that all schools improve and have that consistency in
:25:34. > :25:41.terms of the quality they provide for their children. The Welsh First
:25:42. > :25:44.Minister does not deny there are problems. What is wrong with he had
:25:45. > :25:48.cautious can you argue, can't you, that you judge a nation by its
:25:49. > :25:52.education, and judge its future by its education? We got rid of
:25:53. > :25:56.testing, we relied on teachers to assess children. I think we have to
:25:57. > :26:00.take another look at that. Because we know the teachers will assess
:26:01. > :26:04.children in a particular way, and they may be overdoing it. We need to
:26:05. > :26:07.make sure that teachers are able to benchmark their assessments in an
:26:08. > :26:12.objective fashion. I think there is something we do need to revisit.
:26:13. > :26:15.What isn't right is all our schools are bad, we have some excellent
:26:16. > :26:18.schools, but we need to make sure those at the bottom raise their
:26:19. > :26:22.standards to catch up. And that's why we have launched for example a
:26:23. > :26:26.scheme called Schools Challenge Wales, where the bottom 40 schools
:26:27. > :26:34.will receive money and sphere help them to catch up. Professor David
:26:35. > :26:37.Reynolds of Southampton University is an expert on education and
:26:38. > :26:45.advising the Welsh Government on how to improve its performance. In terms
:26:46. > :26:49.of Government and success of devolution and Wales how important
:26:50. > :26:54.is it? Vital, because an area where we have devolved powers, and if we
:26:55. > :27:07.wish for more powers we would need to be showing that we can exercise
:27:08. > :27:12.the present one as wellan exercise the present one as well. If you are
:27:13. > :27:17.looking at the PISA numbers and you are seeing Wales and 40, and you see
:27:18. > :27:25.Poland with cleverer kids for a third of the wages, the factory goes
:27:26. > :27:28.to Poland. Merthyr needs to attract business, nearly a third of the
:27:29. > :27:31.people work for the Government in one way or another. One was Kelly
:27:32. > :27:35.who lives with her husband and three children on this big housing estate,
:27:36. > :27:41.she lost her job last month, and they are husband has been looking
:27:42. > :27:45.for work for five years. What happened to Merthyr, I lived here
:27:46. > :27:51.many years ago admit lead and it was a very, at one point a very
:27:52. > :27:56.prosperous town? The factories that were keeping people in jobs have
:27:57. > :28:03.closed down and moved away. And the only proper industry around here now
:28:04. > :28:12.is retail. Unfortunately. There is no, apart from the meat factory. Not
:28:13. > :28:18.very nice jobs there? Not very nice jobs, and most of the people who
:28:19. > :28:21.work there are Portuguese and Polish because that company is run by a
:28:22. > :28:25.certain agency and they like to get the Portuguese and Polish in. Plus
:28:26. > :28:29.you know they come over here they want a job and they will take
:28:30. > :28:35.anything. And local people are not so keen on that. I don't know many
:28:36. > :28:40.people actually who work there. But yeah, the only real industry around
:28:41. > :28:46.here is retail. It is an odd thing in way, because retail to succeed
:28:47. > :28:50.needs customers and customers have to have money, there is no money
:28:51. > :28:57.because there is no jobs. Yes, it is a vicious circle. Do you have any
:28:58. > :29:01.thoughts about weather devolution -- whether devolution has made a
:29:02. > :29:05.difference. A significant difference to your lives? At the moment, with
:29:06. > :29:11.the state that Wales is in I don't think devolution is the way. I would
:29:12. > :29:18.love for Wales to be independent and I'm a nationalist through and
:29:19. > :29:25.through. But unfortunately I can see so many problems. My impression is
:29:26. > :29:29.that the Welsh are generally more enthusiastic about devolution than
:29:30. > :29:32.they were when I lived here as a young man. Many English speakers,
:29:33. > :29:36.the majority, of course, think there has been too much focus on promoting
:29:37. > :29:40.the Welsh language. But there is no denying it has been effective. I
:29:41. > :29:45.think the whole language and culture area I think is great success. And
:29:46. > :29:50.the paradox is we were a success there but we don't seem to be able
:29:51. > :29:55.to replicate that success so far. That's wonderful in lots of ways,
:29:56. > :30:01.but it is not going to make Wales a success on the world stage? No it is
:30:02. > :30:05.not. Develop ing a culture could lead into a country which is a theme
:30:06. > :30:09.park for other people to come visit. We don't want that. We want to be a
:30:10. > :30:13.country with culture, but a country with an industrial sector too.
:30:14. > :30:17.Because that would have to underpin the prospect of our people --
:30:18. > :30:20.prosperity of our people. Maybe the answer is to give the Welsh
:30:21. > :30:23.Government more power. The commission set up by London agreed
:30:24. > :30:26.with that. The question is how much more? You don't want independence,
:30:27. > :30:31.you don't even envisage the possibility of independence, but you
:30:32. > :30:37.do want more devolution, when does it stop? When does that process
:30:38. > :30:42.stop, what more do you want? What What we need in the UK, call it a
:30:43. > :30:46.constitutional convention to make sure that everybody what the
:30:47. > :30:49.destination is, so there is a common way of devolving power in the future
:30:50. > :30:53.so there is a proper place for England in the UK constitution,
:30:54. > :30:57.which doesn't really exist at the moment, and everything is lob sided
:30:58. > :31:00.at the moment. We need to make sure that changes in the future,
:31:01. > :31:07.regardless of the result in Scotland. Wales had to change, with
:31:08. > :31:11.or without devolution, the end of mining saw to that. But not
:31:12. > :31:18.everything is different. The valleys still, praise be, have their male
:31:19. > :31:30.voice choirs, like this one. And these MEP -- men are pretty
:31:31. > :31:33.sanguine, only one wanted independence and he was English.
:31:34. > :31:41.They want to get their schools right again and then we will see. Of the
:31:42. > :31:46.many aspects of modern politics that go down like a bucket of cold sick
:31:47. > :31:51.with the public, pre-eminent is the weekly bout of name-calling, jeering
:31:52. > :31:54.and finger-pointing and other juvenile behaviour that goes by the
:31:55. > :31:57.name of Prime Minister's Question Time. In his very first speech as
:31:58. > :32:03.Tory leader David Cameron attacked what he called "Punch and Judy
:32:04. > :32:09.politics", still he plays Mr Punch in politics each week and the
:32:10. > :32:15.Speaker still revels in his own part as the Policeman, coming up with his
:32:16. > :32:24.own lines telling MPs to "pipe down". The Speaker has written to
:32:25. > :32:39.parties to tell MPs to knock it off. Let me ask him this... . Eering and
:32:40. > :32:44.shouting) Quiet yourself. The hard-won
:32:45. > :32:50.credibility we wouldn't have if we listened to the muttering idiots
:32:51. > :32:54.sitting next to me. I have always found the hurly burly of Prime
:32:55. > :32:57.Minister's Questions one of the best ways of finding out what a
:32:58. > :32:59.politician is really like. Without that noisy House of Commons chamber
:33:00. > :33:04.would we know that the usually smooth and civil David Cameron has a
:33:05. > :33:08.slightly mean Flashman streak. Or that Ed Miliband can be wooden and
:33:09. > :33:13.dithery under pressure. But as entertaining as journalists in the
:33:14. > :33:17.press gallery find PMQs, those sitting in the public gallery are
:33:18. > :33:20.rather less enthusiastic. They think there is too much party political
:33:21. > :33:24.points scoring, it is too aggressive and doesn't always deal with the
:33:25. > :33:28.important issues facing the country. I guess they didn't let women into
:33:29. > :33:36.the Bullingdon club either, there we go. The House of Commons speaker,
:33:37. > :33:42.John Bercow is naturally unsettled by this, and calling for decorum
:33:43. > :33:47.rather than decible, less of the public school twitishness, but not
:33:48. > :33:53.quite a call for Trappist amongst. Personally I think that any move to
:33:54. > :33:57.make the Commons more like a monastery would be doing the public
:33:58. > :34:00.a disservice. Some of the worst decisions the parliament has made
:34:01. > :34:05.have been when the three parties cheerily nodded and agreed on an
:34:06. > :34:11.issue rather than dissecting a bad bill. The one thing worse than a
:34:12. > :34:15.passionate democracy would be a consensual and defer relation one.
:34:16. > :34:20.Winston Churchill saw this when he was urged by MPs to rebuild a bombed
:34:21. > :34:26.Commons with a circular chamber. He warned that he had seen many ardent
:34:27. > :34:30.and ernest parliaments destroyed by this system. But the former Cabinet
:34:31. > :34:34.Secretary was the only person he could see in an empty Select
:34:35. > :34:38.Committee hearing a few weeks ago. If the public want to see ernest
:34:39. > :34:43.lengthy debate parliament offers plenty of that. The problem is few
:34:44. > :34:53.people attend these sessions, as is the case in Congress in the states
:34:54. > :34:58.perhaps there isn't enough drama. Ed Miliband did try to tone things down
:34:59. > :35:02.at the start of this year, but his new consensual approach fell flat
:35:03. > :35:05.with his MPs looking far too somber. One of the problems is Conservative
:35:06. > :35:10.MPs have organised themselves to make as much noise as possible at
:35:11. > :35:17.PMQ, they are called the Q-Team, and include rowdy hecklers including the
:35:18. > :35:22.PPS and the Skills Minister. They were only responding to Labour
:35:23. > :35:24.heckler, the Shadow Justice Secretary, shadow leader of the
:35:25. > :35:29.house, Shadow Cabinet office minister and the shadow char. They
:35:30. > :35:41.are all -- Shadow Chancellor. They are all as bad as each other. But
:35:42. > :35:46.while PMQs is as much as stoking primal enthusiasm, like these masks,
:35:47. > :35:49.MPs could make it better. This is the one opportunity each week to
:35:50. > :35:52.hold the Prime Minister to account. Some of the backbenchers choose to
:35:53. > :35:57.waste their questions by sucks up to their boss in the vain hope of a
:35:58. > :36:04.promotion. Others choose to Colleagues who -- jeer colleagues.
:36:05. > :36:09.The Prime Minister could start leading by example if he wants
:36:10. > :36:14.things to change. You really are a very overexcitable individual, you
:36:15. > :36:22.need to write out 1,000 times, "I will behave myself at Prime
:36:23. > :36:24.Minister's Questions". . With us now to discuss all this is the
:36:25. > :36:33.Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and from Bristol the Liberal
:36:34. > :36:36.Democrat Tessa Munt. Are you embarrassed that this is what the
:36:37. > :36:41.public see of parliament? It is the bit they look at and join. They like
:36:42. > :36:45.Prime Minister's Questions and watch it far more than any other bit of
:36:46. > :36:51.parliament. They sadly don't listen to my long and worthy speeches.
:36:52. > :36:55.Tessa Munt, he has a point, it does at least bring parliament into the
:36:56. > :36:58.public eye? Yes it does, but for all the wrong reasons, I would say. I
:36:59. > :37:02.don't think that the playground of that particular political arena is
:37:03. > :37:09.very sensible at all. I think it is clear from the happen standard
:37:10. > :37:14.report -- Hansard report that the public think it is very good. You
:37:15. > :37:18.haven't a very good speaker at present that could be the
:37:19. > :37:21.explanation? We have a reforming speaker at present. It never crossed
:37:22. > :37:25.my mind when I was selected that there would never be a time when
:37:26. > :37:28.select committees are appointed rather than elected, which I was.
:37:29. > :37:34.There are a number of things he has done, and I suspect PMQs will be the
:37:35. > :37:38.last and next one, so. Is it a male thing, do you think, Jacob
:37:39. > :37:42.Rees-Mogg? I don't know, in the pictures that came up there were
:37:43. > :37:47.quite a number of lady MPs who also heckled. But I think it is actually
:37:48. > :37:52.a democratic thing. That people feel the points they are arguing about
:37:53. > :37:55.very strongly, they want to put them across forcefully. Ed Miliband
:37:56. > :38:03.thinks David Cameron should be... You don't believe that? I do. It is
:38:04. > :38:07.all you people who were in the Oxford Union, jeering, cheering? It
:38:08. > :38:11.is not. I fundamentally disagree, and actually the reason people enjoy
:38:12. > :38:15.this programme is because you are good at skewering politician, it
:38:16. > :38:21.makes politics exciting. Now you are doing the finger pointing? I do
:38:22. > :38:25.apologise. You go ahead. I don't call you any names? Well the Prime
:38:26. > :38:30.Minister very rarely calls people names. By and large it is questions
:38:31. > :38:35.about policy and they are forcefully held views that the opposition is
:38:36. > :38:39.challenging the Government about its economic, health and education
:38:40. > :38:43.policies. Those things are felt strongly. Politicians aren't
:38:44. > :38:48.entirely cynical operatives, they do actually believe in things and have
:38:49. > :38:53.principles. Why are you shaking your head, doesn't this apply to you? No,
:38:54. > :38:56.I think it is tosh, if you want to listen to people being held to
:38:57. > :38:59.account for their views and policies go to the ordinary question session
:39:00. > :39:03.that is take place at the beginning of every day in parliament. Prime
:39:04. > :39:07.Minister's Questions is just a complete charade, it is ludicrous
:39:08. > :39:11.behaviour, it is completely stupid. It is just like I guess a public
:39:12. > :39:15.school debating club or something. It is just rubbish that this holes
:39:16. > :39:21.the Prime Minister to account. There is all sorts of questions that if
:39:22. > :39:26.anyone mentions the word "Europe" or "one-nation" the whole place bursts
:39:27. > :39:29.into flames and everybody just, I don't know it is ridiculous. I have
:39:30. > :39:34.been in there and I have actually writen to the speaker on occasion,
:39:35. > :39:38.last year, when it just got completely ridiculous and people
:39:39. > :39:42.were being bullied. There is a savage undertone to some of this.
:39:43. > :39:46.Some people stand in the chamber to ask their questions and they are
:39:47. > :39:50.bullied relentlessly by the other side or people behind them or
:39:51. > :39:54.whatever. It is very unattractive to try to persuade people to go into
:39:55. > :40:01.politics if that is what they say they have to go through. Who are the
:40:02. > :40:05.worst offenders? Goodness me I wouldn't know, I couldn't name
:40:06. > :40:11.people. I expect that probably if you went back to the speakers tapes.
:40:12. > :40:15.If you care so much name some names? Well there was a comment last week
:40:16. > :40:20.wasn't there where somebody said it would be quite nice to have day in
:40:21. > :40:24.parliament where Mr Gov, he's name wasn't mentioned for some reason of
:40:25. > :40:27.behavioural. Apart from the Secretary of State for Education
:40:28. > :40:31.anybody else? I think there are people on every side. I think there
:40:32. > :40:36.are people who. I don't engage in this stuff. Even sainted Liberal
:40:37. > :40:40.Democrats? There might be, I don't engage in that and I have encouraged
:40:41. > :40:45.us not to do that. Let's have some names? There are people who are
:40:46. > :40:50.cloud and enthusiastic, I sit in front of those people. Who are
:40:51. > :40:53.there? I'm not going to mention them there are enough of them engage
:40:54. > :41:01.anything that. There are rumours that the whips sent out
:41:02. > :41:05.congratulatory texts to the major t parties about doing well done about
:41:06. > :41:12.the wall of sound. We are getting tittle tattle thirdhand of what is
:41:13. > :41:16.happening in different situationingses, and you have named
:41:17. > :41:20.Michael Gove and everything names him? We want to make sure that the
:41:21. > :41:24.issue of harrassment and bullying that takes place needs to be sorted
:41:25. > :41:29.out. It is for people to adjust their own behaviour. Frankly, I have
:41:30. > :41:33.been to a county council meeting earlier on this evening, if a town
:41:34. > :41:37.council behaved in that way they would be put in special measures. If
:41:38. > :41:41.we had children behavic like this in school they would be taken out and
:41:42. > :41:50.dealt with. Is there any chance of this changing? I hope not, it would
:41:51. > :41:55.be ghastly if the Commons were stopped. You wouldn't let children
:41:56. > :41:58.behave like this in class? Children in class are being taught things
:41:59. > :42:01.specifically and are meant to be learning. In the House of Commons we
:42:02. > :42:04.are challenging ideas and in the heat of debate some ideas and
:42:05. > :42:09.individuals fail. That's very important. Because we want a lead
:42:10. > :42:15.whore is tough enough to be able to cope with a few people Braing at
:42:16. > :42:20.him. It is not the end of the world. For God's sake look after our
:42:21. > :42:23.people, the last words written by Captain Robert Falcon Scott in his
:42:24. > :42:28.diary just before dying in Antarctica, retain their resonance
:42:29. > :42:32.after 100 years. Famously Captain Scott had set tout plant the British
:42:33. > :42:37.flag at the South Pole, discovered he was beaten by the Norwegians, and
:42:38. > :42:45.perished in the bitterist of bitter cold trying to walk 700 mimes back
:42:46. > :42:50.to the expedition baize. Now two Antarctic explorers have made the
:42:51. > :42:54.same journey, without the same dramatic consequences. One of them
:42:55. > :43:06.is here, Ben Saunders, why did he do it? One of the most bute of places
:43:07. > :43:12.on earth, Antarctica is not for the faint hearteded, temperatures can
:43:13. > :43:23.fall to minus 27 Celsius. And the distances are prodigious. In 1927
:43:24. > :43:27.Robert Falcon Scott took a hand-picked team to claim the pole
:43:28. > :43:31.for the British Empire. They were beaten to it and never completed the
:43:32. > :43:36.return journey, perishing a dozen miles short of their final food
:43:37. > :43:50.depot. In over 100 years since then, no-one has tried to repeat Scott's
:43:51. > :43:54.journey successfully until now. Ben Saunders prepared for ten years to
:43:55. > :43:59.follow in the footsteps of Scott's expedition. In October last year
:44:00. > :44:04.STHET off for the UK. Using the latest technology, including a
:44:05. > :44:08.specially designed satellite dish. They followed the route plotted by
:44:09. > :44:12.Scott and his name. Scott's team had to work in relays as they prepared a
:44:13. > :44:23.five-man unit for a final dash to the poll. Ott and his name. Scott's
:44:24. > :44:26.team had to work in relays as they prepared a five-man unit for a final
:44:27. > :44:29.dash to the poll. After finding out they had been beaten to the pole he
:44:30. > :44:33.wrote "the worst has happened, everything must go". Technology can
:44:34. > :44:38.do nothing to improve the weather for the new explorers. They were
:44:39. > :44:42.able to talk by satellite phone throughout their journey and blog
:44:43. > :44:47.about it. It still took 105 days on the ice. By the time the journey was
:44:48. > :44:52.over they had lost 20 kilos in weight each. Ben Saunders talked in
:44:53. > :45:00.his blog of sledges that never seemed to become lighter, rumbling
:45:01. > :45:05.stop mocks, home sickness, sleep deprivation, deep fatigue, and a
:45:06. > :45:09.land can a scale that defies comprehension. A scale that
:45:10. > :45:13.threatened at times to crush their spirits and cut early to exchaste
:45:14. > :45:24.their bodies. But a scale that left an impression on them that will stay
:45:25. > :45:30.for the rest of their livesst of their lives. The story of Captain
:45:31. > :45:38.Scott is wonderful and dramatic. People know it but would not choose
:45:39. > :45:42.to recreate it? I have still not got a response to that. We weren't
:45:43. > :45:58.exploring in the same sense as Scott were. We weren't drawing maps or
:45:59. > :46:03.anything like that The thing that fascinated about this is why wasn't
:46:04. > :46:09.the journey finished. Why wasn't it? It is a heck of a long way. Even
:46:10. > :46:15.nowadays. 700 mile walk? Even with vitamin see and solar panels and
:46:16. > :46:21.velcro and all these essentials, it is a journey still close to the
:46:22. > :46:26.limits of what happened. It is immensely gruelling and we saw some
:46:27. > :46:38.of the words you used to describe t and mentally pretty taxing? Very
:46:39. > :46:42.hard. I have been dragging shreds sleds for a lot of years. I
:46:43. > :46:45.underestimated how mentally tough it would be, especially within the
:46:46. > :46:50.weather was bad. Scott and his team were alone. You weren't in the sense
:46:51. > :46:55.that you had communications, does that make it easier or more
:46:56. > :46:59.difficult? It can be a double-edged sword, it was wonderful to be able
:47:00. > :47:05.to write. We had a blog, which we were sending back every day live
:47:06. > :47:10.from the tent. You saw the little laptop we had. Scott was the writer
:47:11. > :47:15.and it was Scott's diary that inspired me many years ago. They are
:47:16. > :47:21.fantastic? He was an amazing writer, very poignant and courageously
:47:22. > :47:25.towards the end. I'm not a photographer, film maker or artist,
:47:26. > :47:28.writing has been the way to share stories of this trip. It was
:47:29. > :47:33.wonderful to be able to tell that story as it unfolded in real time.
:47:34. > :47:40.The telephone is a different thing. Being able to phone my mum, who I
:47:41. > :47:45.think was picturing... Did you phone your mu Fairly regularly. You phoned
:47:46. > :47:50.her from the South Pole? I phoned her every few days. My mum imagined
:47:51. > :47:54.the 11-year-old schoolboy Ben in the Antarctic, packed lunch and lost in
:47:55. > :48:01.the blizzard. But she was worrying at times, I think. The phone is a
:48:02. > :48:07.double-edged sword, and of course we had a safety net. The knowledge that
:48:08. > :48:10.our suffering was entirely self-imposed was a hard thing to
:48:11. > :48:14.deal with at times. Scott never had the option of being airlifted out
:48:15. > :48:19.which we had all the time. We had to dial a number and make the suffering
:48:20. > :48:23.end. So in that sense it was a test. One final very quick question, why
:48:24. > :48:28.haven't you got a bigger beard? It was removed couple of days ago, I
:48:29. > :48:32.got fed one it, there was food and stuff going in it. That's it for
:48:33. > :48:38.tonight. We leave you with the news of the Lego Movie, which easily
:48:39. > :48:43.topped the film charts on its release this weekend, making the
:48:44. > :48:50.brick stars of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, we have learned that
:48:51. > :48:52.the sim somes are next on the road to Lego makeover.
:48:53. > :49:12.Whatever next. Next. Ever Any mist and murk will clear
:49:13. > :49:13.through the afternoon and beginning to break holes in the