:00:15. > :00:19.Last night's promise of peace just one of the casualties of what looks
:00:20. > :00:24.like war. The White House has expressed its outrage, EU leaders
:00:25. > :00:28.have agreed sanctions, but with blood on the streets already what
:00:29. > :00:33.can they really achieve, as the turmoil spreads far beyond the
:00:34. > :00:37.capital. Should buying sex be illegal? We can reveal an important
:00:38. > :00:42.group of British politicians think so. But other countries are relaxing
:00:43. > :00:48.the rules. We report from Europe's biggest brothel. Do you enjoy it as
:00:49. > :00:54.a job? When you have nice men, of course. When you don't? Then I'm
:00:55. > :01:02.also not so friendly. The fallen Queen of the tabloid starts to tell
:01:03. > :01:08.her story. Brooks Brookes Rebekah Brooks begins her defence in the
:01:09. > :01:11.hacking trial. After David Bowie's game-changing intervention in the
:01:12. > :01:23.Scottish independence debate. We are joined by the man who fell to the
:01:24. > :01:28.Newsnight studio or kind of. Good evening, 75 demonstrators are
:01:29. > :01:32.dead. Nearly 70 policemen have been taken hostage. This is not just a
:01:33. > :01:36.battle for the Ukrainian capital's main square, but a violent fight for
:01:37. > :01:43.the future of a country that now feels on the edge of war on the edge
:01:44. > :01:46.of Europe. The White House is angry, the EU trying tough diplomacy, but
:01:47. > :01:53.no-one seems to have a clear idea of how to stop the fighting. Gabriel
:01:54. > :02:01.Gatehouse in Kiev is there for us tonight. He has been on the streets.
:02:02. > :02:18.As you would expect his report has disturbing images.
:02:19. > :02:28.The truce didn't last long. This morning Kiev again awoke to the
:02:29. > :02:40.sound of gunfire. A small group of protestors was trying to retake
:02:41. > :03:00.ground (gunfire) They were met by sniper fire with deadly results. She
:03:01. > :03:09.has just said there are six dead people up there, not just injured,
:03:10. > :03:13.dead. They have been hit by snipers. Some of the demonstrators pulled
:03:14. > :03:26.back, dragging their injured comrades to safety, under a hail of
:03:27. > :03:34.bullets fired by Government forces. The fighting has moved up, as they
:03:35. > :03:37.tried to retake some of the territory taken off them by the
:03:38. > :03:45.police some days ago. These are the injured and the bangs remember
:03:46. > :03:49.hearing is real gunfire. The nearby Hotel Ukraine, where we and other
:03:50. > :03:53.journalists were saying turned into a makeshift triage centre. One of
:03:54. > :03:59.the first to be brought in was this man. Is there an exit wound? He had
:04:00. > :04:05.taken a bullet through the thigh. Easy. Another lay on the floor of
:04:06. > :04:13.the lobby, bleeding profusely from his foot. The priest's services were
:04:14. > :04:18.not required, both of these men survived. We left the hotel and
:04:19. > :04:27.ventured up towards the new frontline. The majority of the
:04:28. > :04:37.gunfire seemed to be coming from police lines. But not all of it.
:04:38. > :04:46.From one of the upper windows of the hotel, a shot rang out. Up there,
:04:47. > :04:51.our hotel. That window, fifth row from the left, second from the top,
:04:52. > :04:57.one that was open. I saw the shooter, he was wearing one of the
:04:58. > :05:01.protesters' green helmets. The number of people injured today must
:05:02. > :05:06.have reached well into the hundreds. They just kept on coming, some still
:05:07. > :05:12.defiant as they were stretchered off. At the same time fresh
:05:13. > :05:19.protestors came forward to man the new barricades. TRANSLATION: We
:05:20. > :05:29.broke through police lines right here says, it was our initiative,
:05:30. > :05:32.they are unpredictable. So are we. The Mayor of Kiev announced he was
:05:33. > :05:36.joining the opposition and invited the police force to join him. It is
:05:37. > :05:39.not clear if any have taken him up on that offer. In other parts of
:05:40. > :05:43.Ukraine, especially the west, there are reports that security forces are
:05:44. > :05:48.refusing to follow orders to crack down on the protesters. You have to
:05:49. > :05:53.be careful, of course, with comparison, but we have seen this
:05:54. > :05:58.happen in other countries. Peaceful demonstrations eventually turning
:05:59. > :06:03.violent. Look at that up there, that was the headquarters of the
:06:04. > :06:09.protestors, until it was ransacked, firebombed and now it is smoking
:06:10. > :06:14.remains. This is no longer just a protest movement, this is becoming a
:06:15. > :06:19.rebellion. And the question now is how much further both sides are
:06:20. > :06:24.prepared to push this. This afternoon two armoured personnel
:06:25. > :06:29.arriers were parked just beyond the new frontline. The Interior Minister
:06:30. > :06:33.said police would be issued with firearms. On Independence Square
:06:34. > :06:36.protesters were busy clearing the beenbury left behind in the --
:06:37. > :06:40.debris left behind in the areas newly captured from the authorities.
:06:41. > :06:45.Judges by the hundreds of cartridges they found, there is already no
:06:46. > :06:48.shortage of guns. Very west visited the office of the mayor, the one who
:06:49. > :06:52.said he had defected to the opposition. He was nowhere to be
:06:53. > :06:57.seen. But the place is full of demonstrators, resting, recharging
:06:58. > :07:11.their batteries, waiting for the next battle. These people too are
:07:12. > :07:15.armed. Sergei told us his men had captured 30 police officers this
:07:16. > :07:20.morning, confiscating their weapons and ammunition. His colleague,
:07:21. > :07:28.Mariam told me how he helped to seize the officers. TRANSLATION:
:07:29. > :07:33.They got a beating from us. I won't lie. But then we delivered them to
:07:34. > :07:37.the protest authorities, they will decide their fate. I asked him and
:07:38. > :07:41.his comrades whether they were worried that the protest was turning
:07:42. > :07:48.to conflict? They all agreed this is already war. Gabriel joins us now
:07:49. > :07:52.from his hotel in central Kiev. Appalling violence today, it has
:07:53. > :08:00.gone way beyond protest. Is it revolution or is it war? Well this
:08:01. > :08:04.afternoon we saw eight bodies of the dead laid out on the street, the
:08:05. > :08:09.overwhelming initial reaction, I think, was shock, and grief. People
:08:10. > :08:13.pouring in to pay their respects and ask why is this happening. But of
:08:14. > :08:17.course with every death the bitterness and the division grows.
:08:18. > :08:22.And if you look across Ukraine you see in the west more protests,
:08:23. > :08:26.Government buildings being taken over. One local governor being
:08:27. > :08:32.hauled out of his offices and handcuffed to the front. In the east
:08:33. > :08:35.traditionally thought to be more Russian-facing, we heard a local
:08:36. > :08:43.governor talking about a clampdown on those who undermine state
:08:44. > :08:47.authority. In the Crimea, other statements. This feels like a real
:08:48. > :08:51.threat of Civil War. It is not there yet. Sometimes it feels on the
:08:52. > :08:54.streets of this capital like the talks of division of split are a
:08:55. > :08:58.little bit overdone and that one thing that many Ukrainians have in
:08:59. > :09:03.common, they often say they just want to live together in a country
:09:04. > :09:06.free from corruption. And briefly, the diplomatic machine is now being
:09:07. > :09:12.cranked up in the west. But does that even feel relevant where you
:09:13. > :09:16.are? On the streets I have to say it feels very irrelevant, just briefly
:09:17. > :09:20.to tell you what's happened. Both Russia, the US and the EU have said
:09:21. > :09:23.they have come together to try to broker a solution, but then you see
:09:24. > :09:27.the divisions there and the diplomatic game. The EU and the US
:09:28. > :09:31.introducing sanctions against those they see as responsible for the
:09:32. > :09:36.violence. Russia saying that this is an attempted coup on the streets, as
:09:37. > :09:40.said, people finding this utterly irrelevant, they say they just want
:09:41. > :09:45.to get rid of the Government. Thank you very much indeed. As was
:09:46. > :09:49.suggested the unrest has not been confined to Ukraine's capital, but
:09:50. > :09:53.spreading right across the country. Protests have also rocked cities in
:09:54. > :10:00.the broadly pro-western regions of the country. In Lutsk, the governor
:10:01. > :10:05.appointed by President Yanukovych was seized by anti-Government
:10:06. > :10:08.protesters and frog marched in handcuffs to stage in the city's
:10:09. > :10:13.main square, after he refused to resign. Here protestors set fire to
:10:14. > :10:16.the local headquarters of the Government security forces and took
:10:17. > :10:23.control of several Government buildings. And in this area,
:10:24. > :10:28.anti-Government forces stormed the local Security Services building.
:10:29. > :10:36.But in the broadly pro-Government east of Ukraine there were few signs
:10:37. > :10:41.of unrest. In fact, in the city of Donetsk a group of miners set off to
:10:42. > :10:45.Kiev to support the Government beleaguered forces. Joining us in
:10:46. > :10:50.the west of the country is a student activist and one of the protesters.
:10:51. > :10:55.Thank you for joining us, is the Kiev Government in charge where you
:10:56. > :11:04.are? Good evening to you. I wouldn't be you know, I don't want to say
:11:05. > :11:07.this because we are ready to support every single sane idea and every
:11:08. > :11:13.single sane instruction that comes to us. But whenever lately,
:11:14. > :11:20.especially we have been instructed in such an utter horrible
:11:21. > :11:26.instructions, you know, we didn't obey that. So I can say the
:11:27. > :11:31.Government is in charge, I can't say that, I have to say people are in
:11:32. > :11:34.charge. If the Government refuses to budge and leave, how long will you
:11:35. > :11:40.keep on protesting, how long will you keep on fighting? Till we reach
:11:41. > :11:46.our end. There is no other choice for us. The choices are either this
:11:47. > :11:49.Government goes down and the, actually somebody hears the voices
:11:50. > :11:54.of the people, or we're just going to stand there until it happens,
:11:55. > :12:00.that's it. Does that mean war? Not necessarily, no. At the moment let's
:12:01. > :12:03.say in my city we are having a civilian police controlling the
:12:04. > :12:09.public and not allowing any more violence. So we're not, we want to
:12:10. > :12:15.be peaceful. We want to stand until something has changed. With us now
:12:16. > :12:18.are Alexander Nekrassov a former Kremlin adviser and Robert Brinkley
:12:19. > :12:23.who was the British ambassador in Ukraine. Firstly to you Robert, you
:12:24. > :12:27.know this country very well, is it slipping into Civil War? I don't
:12:28. > :12:31.know if we can yet call it "Civil War", but there is clearly very
:12:32. > :12:34.serious protests. The pictures in the film earlier were horrifying
:12:35. > :12:38.what is happening in Kiev, a city I know well and love. Which was a
:12:39. > :12:41.peaceful city, even through the orange revolution when there was
:12:42. > :12:43.half a million people out on the streets for weeks on end. Then there
:12:44. > :12:48.was no bloodshed. Now very different. So there is a civil
:12:49. > :12:52.conflict, but the actual conflict and the fighting is still confined
:12:53. > :12:54.in a very small area of the capital city. But we have seen how it is
:12:55. > :13:01.spreading across the country. Alexander Nekrassov is there a real
:13:02. > :13:04.risk here of civil war? Of course there is, the problem is the so
:13:05. > :13:09.called opposition has been hijacked by radicals who are now arming the
:13:10. > :13:12.followers. What I find strange to be honest with you is we have seen the
:13:13. > :13:16.report by your correspondent, why didn't he talk to the other side.
:13:17. > :13:21.Why didn't he talk to any official in Kiev and ask him what is going on
:13:22. > :13:26.the other side. Why didn't we see any dead policemen. I have seen
:13:27. > :13:30.footage on the Russian media where a group of protestors beat a policeman
:13:31. > :13:34.to death with bricks. Now why don't you show this for once. Because you
:13:35. > :13:39.are always showing these protesters as if they are some freedom
:13:40. > :13:44.fighters. We have seen very clearly the Ukrainian security forces using
:13:45. > :13:47.AK-46s on people in the streets. We don't know, we are not sure if they
:13:48. > :13:51.are armed but it was clearly very serious violence. And in the west of
:13:52. > :13:55.the country are you calling that girl a violent radical? I'm talking
:13:56. > :13:59.about the people who are armed snipers and shooting at everybody.
:14:00. > :14:04.The problem is that when you say the police were armed, they did not have
:14:05. > :14:09.any live ammunition until the protesters, the "protestors" because
:14:10. > :14:12.they are basically insurgents if they are armed, they started
:14:13. > :14:16.shooting and killing policemen. On Tuesday it was announced that 25
:14:17. > :14:21.people were dead, nobody bothered to say that 12 were policemen. This is
:14:22. > :14:24.very biased. Is he right about that? Well, certainly there was some
:14:25. > :14:30.policemen among the dead on Tuesday. Can I say that all violence in this
:14:31. > :14:34.situation is to be condemned, whoever is responsible for it. But
:14:35. > :14:37.the fact is that the vast majority of the protesters have been
:14:38. > :14:41.peaceful. There has been a small number, a couple of hundred, a few
:14:42. > :14:46.hundred maybe who have engaged in violence in the last couple of
:14:47. > :14:51.weeks. That is reprehensible, it is not to be cone doned. But the
:14:52. > :14:55.Government, President Yanukovych has had three months to try to resolve
:14:56. > :15:09.this situation. And they have let it fester and that's why the
:15:10. > :15:13.radicalisation has grown. G Putin go along with this violence? I think
:15:14. > :15:17.Putin and the whole leadership are worried and anxious about this
:15:18. > :15:23.situation growing and growing and turning into civil war. Let me point
:15:24. > :15:25.out another thing, before the Ukrainian Government and the
:15:26. > :15:30.Ukrainian President refused to sign that agreement with the EU, no-one
:15:31. > :15:35.in the west was criticising him, no-one was talking about corruption
:15:36. > :15:39.in the Ukraine. He suited them. The moment he said we're not going to
:15:40. > :15:44.sign this, suddenly everything changes. You are disagreeing? I have
:15:45. > :15:49.to disagree with that, Yanukovych, well before this has had a very bad
:15:50. > :15:52.reputation for corruption, for enriching himself and his family.
:15:53. > :15:57.That is why he's so desperately unpopular in the country. And what
:15:58. > :16:00.started off as a protest out of shock that the Government had
:16:01. > :16:03.suddenly done a U-turn on the association agreement with the
:16:04. > :16:06.European Union very quickly turned into major protests against
:16:07. > :16:11.Yanukovych. What we are seeing now is these protests right across the
:16:12. > :16:15.country, would Russia ever tolerate part of the Ukraine, the west,
:16:16. > :16:20.breaking away and splitering off? It is very difficult to say now.
:16:21. > :16:34.Because we snowed to resolve this situation -- need to resolve this
:16:35. > :16:38.situation first. We are seeing at the protesters go and take orders
:16:39. > :16:42.from America. Do you have evidence of that? On Monday all the prisoners
:16:43. > :16:45.who were arrested during the violence were released. Immediately
:16:46. > :16:48.a provocation is organised on Tuesday near the parliament building
:16:49. > :16:52.and they started attacking the parliament building. How does that
:16:53. > :16:56.happen? Who gives these orders, and explain to me one thing that I would
:16:57. > :17:02.love to ask your correspondent, how is it that peaceful or semi-peaceful
:17:03. > :17:06.unarmed protesters are with standing attacks by armed police. This I
:17:07. > :17:11.don't understand. Ambassador is that even vaguely plausible that some how
:17:12. > :17:14.this is being masterminded by EU leaders like America? I don't find
:17:15. > :17:19.it plausible at all. What happened on Tuesday was that the opposition
:17:20. > :17:24.were expecting the parliament to start debating reform to the
:17:25. > :17:27.constitution to remove some of the additional presidential powers which
:17:28. > :17:30.Yanukovych has given himself. Instead Yanukovych's party said
:17:31. > :17:35.there would be no debate on that. We must leave it there, thank you very
:17:36. > :17:39.much indeed for coming in. You Newsnight has seen the final report
:17:40. > :17:44.from a group of MPs that will say buying sex should be against the law
:17:45. > :17:48.in England and Wales. That would follow Sweden, Norway and soon
:17:49. > :17:52.France where the clients of prostitutes are considered
:17:53. > :17:55.criminals. But other European countries are going in the opposite
:17:56. > :18:01.direction, legalising the trade. In a moment we will ask which route we
:18:02. > :18:05.should take, but first Germany has the most liberal laws. It has been
:18:06. > :18:09.very good for a certain kind of business. We have been allowed to
:18:10. > :18:13.film inside Europe's biggest brothel. And a warning, there are
:18:14. > :18:27.images of nudity from the very start of this report.
:18:28. > :18:38.This is the result of an experiment, one its critics say has gone badly
:18:39. > :18:43.wrong. In 2002 Germany legalised the buying and selling of sex. The 16
:18:44. > :18:52.billion euro industry is now dominated by so called megabrothels
:18:53. > :18:57.like this. Paradise in Stuttgart is the largest of its kind, at a cost
:18:58. > :19:02.of ?5 million, it is home to 80 women and hundreds of male customers
:19:03. > :19:07.every night. The sex trade here is so out in the open, it can feel a
:19:08. > :19:11.bit uncomfortable, even shocking at first. But large brothels like this
:19:12. > :19:16.have now spread across cities in this country. The decision to relax
:19:17. > :19:21.prostitution laws in 2002 was meant to make life safer for sex workers,
:19:22. > :19:26.critics say it has just made Germany into the bored Dell low of Europe.
:19:27. > :19:31.-- bordello of Europe. Most of the people here didn't want to appear on
:19:32. > :19:35.camera. But the brothel said 22-year-old Hannah would speak to
:19:36. > :19:39.us. She has been working in the sex industry for two years, sleeping
:19:40. > :19:46.with five other six men a night. I started at 6.00 and finish 3.00 in
:19:47. > :19:52.the morning, and it is OK. I can say no when I don't like. I can search
:19:53. > :19:55.what like. I don't have to do anything that the men like, I do
:19:56. > :20:00.what I want. How much could you earn, or how much could a girl in
:20:01. > :20:09.general earn in one night? Totally depends. So you can make from
:20:10. > :20:15.100-1,000 euros, it depends on it. 1,000 euros a night? When you have
:20:16. > :20:20.luck, it can be, but not often. If prostitution was banned in Germany,
:20:21. > :20:30.if these places didn't exist, would you still work as a prostitute? No.
:20:31. > :20:35.Then it is not safe. So you wouldn't work at all in that area? No, it is
:20:36. > :20:40.really too dangerous, too many crazy people. Do you enjoy it as a job?
:20:41. > :20:48.When I have a nice man, of course. When you don't? Then I'm also not so
:20:49. > :20:52.friendly. This is a good thing. You don't have to be every time
:20:53. > :20:56.friendly. These are working rooms, can you look inside here, very nice
:20:57. > :21:00.rooms. By treating it as a job like any other, the idea was to price
:21:01. > :21:04.women away from the pimps that run the trade. Sex workers can now pay
:21:05. > :21:09.into social security and demand health insurance. But, partly as a
:21:10. > :21:13.result of the new law, the number of prostitutes in Germany is thought to
:21:14. > :21:18.have doubled to 400,000. Most of the women here are from Eastern Europe,
:21:19. > :21:22.countries like Romania and Bulgaria. Critics say the policy has led to a
:21:23. > :21:29.rise in trafficking, as girls are shipped in to meet demand. The
:21:30. > :21:30.people who own and run large brothel chains strongly deny that's the
:21:31. > :22:03.case. Does it also increase prostitution
:22:04. > :22:21.in general in Germany having places like this?
:22:22. > :22:28.Germany now has the most liberal prostitution laws in Europe. It is
:22:29. > :22:31.one of handful of countries alongside the Netherlands to have
:22:32. > :22:35.legalised the profession. In the UK the buying and selling of sex is
:22:36. > :22:39.technically legal, but brothels, kerb crawling and solacetation are
:22:40. > :22:45.all against the law. At the other end of the spectrum, Sweden, Norway
:22:46. > :22:50.and Iceland, they are selling sex legally, instead it is the man
:22:51. > :22:53.paying for it who is punished with a heavy fine and prison. The same
:22:54. > :22:56.Swedish model is being considered by Northern Ireland and six other
:22:57. > :23:06.countries. Most notably France where legislation is going through
:23:07. > :23:08.parliament model is being considered by Northern Ireland and six other
:23:09. > :23:10.countries. Most notably France where legislation is going through
:23:11. > :23:12.parliament. When the new law goes through it means everyone in France
:23:13. > :23:15.could get a fine, where a few hundred metres over there
:23:16. > :23:18.prostitution will be legal. Both countries are going in completely
:23:19. > :23:32.different directions when it comes to tackling exploitation and the sex
:23:33. > :23:37.trade. For some that is a clear business opportunity. On the
:23:38. > :23:43.outskirts of the city workers are busy on the new Paradise Brothel.
:23:44. > :23:47.The sixth the chain has built across Austria. From next month 80 women a
:23:48. > :23:58.night will work in the 30 or so private rooms here.
:23:59. > :24:02.Critics will say what they are trying to do in France is protect
:24:03. > :24:05.women there. What you are doing is quite a cynical way to exploit a
:24:06. > :24:27.change in the law. But if the idea behind legalisation
:24:28. > :24:31.was to drag the industry into the light, then here that hasn't
:24:32. > :24:34.happened. There are a number of regulated brothels here, but on a
:24:35. > :24:40.cold Friday night there are still young girls working the streets. The
:24:41. > :24:43.city's left-wing mayor supported the decision to relax prostitution law,
:24:44. > :25:27.she has firmly changed her mind. But for the moment the EU appears
:25:28. > :25:32.split down the middle on the sex trade. Next month a parliamentary
:25:33. > :25:37.inquiry in the UK will recommend we reject legalisation and officially
:25:38. > :25:41.criminalise the buying of sex for the first time. Whichever direction
:25:42. > :25:46.Europe follows, whether it is the liberal, German or strict Swedish
:25:47. > :25:50.approach, that could decide the way thousands of women and men are
:25:51. > :25:56.treated for decades to come. Joining me now are Laura Lee a sex worker
:25:57. > :26:00.and spokes person for the Internationl Union of Sex Workers.
:26:01. > :26:04.Dr Belinda Brooks-Gordon, author of The Price of Sex, Dorcas Erskine,
:26:05. > :26:07.who works with traffiked women, and Mary Honeyball a Labour MEP who
:26:08. > :26:12.campaigns in Brussels on just this issue. Welcome to you all. Laura
:26:13. > :26:16.Lee, firstly to you, just to be completely clear about this, men pay
:26:17. > :26:21.you for sex, that's been your career for many years? Yes, they do. Men
:26:22. > :26:25.indeed pay me for sex, I have been a sex worker now for just under 20
:26:26. > :26:28.years. I love my job. I truly do, and I don't believe I'm quit the
:26:29. > :26:33.different from the vast majority in saying that. The current proposals
:26:34. > :26:37.that are on the table really concern me because it seems to me that it
:26:38. > :26:41.will create a police state, because when consenting adults are having
:26:42. > :26:45.sex that is none of the state's business. But when you see the rules
:26:46. > :26:50.relaxed so far that there is that kind of warehousing of sex, like in
:26:51. > :26:54.that megabrothel, what do you make of that, would you be happy to work
:26:55. > :26:59.somewhere like that? Personally speaking would I be happy to work in
:27:00. > :27:03.a megabrothel, yes. I'm not saying the sex industry is for everybody
:27:04. > :27:07.necessarily, it is my choice and I love what I do and the same can be
:27:08. > :27:11.said for many of my colleagues. My big concern with the current push
:27:12. > :27:14.going on is the voices of sex workers have not been heard or
:27:15. > :27:18.consulted. Belinda Brooks-Gordon you also believe the rules should be
:27:19. > :27:23.relaxed to such an extent that sex businesses should even pay tax, be
:27:24. > :27:27.formalised like that? That is the circumstance in Austria and
:27:28. > :27:32.Switzerland, you never hear problems of those states. What is interesting
:27:33. > :27:37.is areas where it is very prohibited, Thailand, Jamaica, it is
:27:38. > :27:41.actually more visible. We should treat it like any other business
:27:42. > :27:44.like selling bread and milk down the shops? Not like any other business.
:27:45. > :27:49.For example the situation in Germany is that people can't be made to go
:27:50. > :27:52.into that business in the labour exchange, for example. And the
:27:53. > :27:57.client can't enforce the contract. But the sex worker can if he doesn't
:27:58. > :28:01.pay. Mary Honeyball nice bit of cash for the Treasury? It doesn't work
:28:02. > :28:06.quite like that in Germany. There are about 400,000 women who work in
:28:07. > :28:09.prostitution across Germany. They are supposed to have access to
:28:10. > :28:13.healthcare, be able to claim benefits and all those sorts of
:28:14. > :28:18.things that Belinda talked about. They don't, at the last count only
:28:19. > :28:22.44 out of those 400,000 had actually done that. So it isn't nice money
:28:23. > :28:25.for the Treasury. You have to ask why those women working in
:28:26. > :28:28.prostitution doesn't actually come forward and take advantage of what
:28:29. > :28:33.the state claims that they will give them. Many of them, Dorcas Erskine,
:28:34. > :28:37.like Laura here said they made a choice to do this for a living. Do
:28:38. > :28:42.you have a problem with the choice they make, a problem with the choice
:28:43. > :28:49.that Laura has made? No with respect to lawyer a she seems happy with the
:28:50. > :28:53.choice she made. She doesn't represent the vast majority of
:28:54. > :28:58.people in prostitution, please don't interrupt me. I believe laws are
:28:59. > :29:01.made not to protect the minority who are fine but the majority who are
:29:02. > :29:08.not. Even people who do not agree with our stance on prostitution, I
:29:09. > :29:11.quote research from someone who is very verdant about our stance on
:29:12. > :29:15.prostitution that they did for the Home Office. They noted most of the
:29:16. > :29:19.women they interviewed had entered prostitution at the age of 13 years
:29:20. > :29:24.old. That 78% of them were in the care system and that a lot of them
:29:25. > :29:28.also came from migrant backgrounds. Those are people who are vulnerable.
:29:29. > :29:32.And I don't believe that making a choice of very limited economic
:29:33. > :29:39.choices is the best that we can offer women in those vulnerable
:29:40. > :29:43.states. I believe that as soon as Eton and Cheltenham ladies
:29:44. > :29:47.colleagues put on the curriculum that prostitution is available for
:29:48. > :29:50.everyone to do for every social class and race and economic
:29:51. > :29:56.background, then let's talk about choice but we are not there yet. Are
:29:57. > :30:00.you saying that sex work and legal class doesn't exist? I'm not, I'm
:30:01. > :30:04.saying the majority of women who work in it are women who are from
:30:05. > :30:12.these socioeconomic backgrounds. That is not what the evidence says.
:30:13. > :30:16.Actually the evidence does that. We can pinpoint back and forth about
:30:17. > :30:23.this and that research. On the wider issue, the wider issue is. Research
:30:24. > :30:28.is important. Why should sex be... . Why is it for you to tell her what
:30:29. > :30:33.to do for a living? I'm not. Which is why I respect the Swedish model
:30:34. > :30:37.which Mary is putting forward. I really do not believe, and it really
:30:38. > :30:40.annoys me that the state criminalises women in prostitution,
:30:41. > :30:44.especially when they come from these backgrounds. I believe we need to
:30:45. > :30:48.look at criminalising the buyer. The Swedish model where the client
:30:49. > :30:52.becomes the criminal, but Laura? I'm not speaking from research or
:30:53. > :30:56.papers, I'm speaking from 20 years of on the ground absolute experience
:30:57. > :31:00.in the sex industry. As to your not representative argument, I have
:31:01. > :31:03.worked in five-star Penthouse apartments down to what could be
:31:04. > :31:08.reasonably described as a chicken coup and everything inbetween, I
:31:09. > :31:11.have met some very, very desperate women in those circumstance, but to
:31:12. > :31:18.criminalise the buyer of the sex act is not the way forward. You need to
:31:19. > :31:21.hit the traffickers. 1,140 women in our organisation have been trafficed
:31:22. > :31:25.your experience can't be the only voice to hear. Whether you like the
:31:26. > :31:28.idea of prostitution or not, whether you want to accept it or not, and
:31:29. > :31:32.many people do not understandably, isn't it better however to have
:31:33. > :31:36.women inside a place of business where they are safe, where they are
:31:37. > :31:40.inside and not having the trade pushed to dark corners in unsafe
:31:41. > :31:46.parts of our cities? I would like to challenge the dark corpers idea. If
:31:47. > :31:51.the buyer is criminalised the woman who is not the criminal can come
:31:52. > :31:55.forward. On the trafficking issue, there is good evidence from Sweden,
:31:56. > :31:58.gathered by the Swedish police that trafficking has actually halved in
:31:59. > :32:17.Sweden since the law was introduced there in 1999ue, there is good
:32:18. > :32:19.evidence from Sweden, gathered by the Swedish police that trafficking
:32:20. > :32:21.has actually halved in Sweden since the law was introduced there in
:32:22. > :32:26.1999. I think that Swedish model with the criminalising of those
:32:27. > :32:30.buying the sex has brought a drop. Are you saying there is something
:32:31. > :32:34.wrong with having sex. Purchasing or paying for sex would not be
:32:35. > :32:39.considered by many people? What is the subtle difference between
:32:40. > :32:54.consenting adults behind closed doors having transactional sex, and
:32:55. > :33:00.it is sometimes just time. Let her finish and I will bring you in. The
:33:01. > :33:04.Poppy Project have a vested interest. Rather than a row over the
:33:05. > :33:08.statistic, finish your point. You used to think all sorts of things
:33:09. > :33:14.were acceptable, like accepting children up chimneys are acceptable
:33:15. > :33:19.and slavery acceptable, why continue now forever to think it is
:33:20. > :33:24.acceptable? It is only sex and only earning money. The average sex
:33:25. > :33:31.worker will earn over ?50,000 a year, 85% of the sex workers
:33:32. > :33:36.according to the academic they ary. -- theory. On that point, it is only
:33:37. > :33:39.sex it is only money what is so wrong with that? I guess the
:33:40. > :33:45.formulation of that argument is to make it seem like we're
:33:46. > :33:49.conservative, we're quite puritanical, but I don't see what's
:33:50. > :33:55.conservative about saying that sex should be free. I haven't finished
:33:56. > :33:59.and I also don't see what's conservative about believing that we
:34:00. > :34:03.want a society as they are producing in Sweden where men can feel they
:34:04. > :34:08.don't have to purchase sex on the backs of those who are vulnerable,
:34:09. > :34:12.what a radical conservative idea. If it was going forward, what
:34:13. > :34:16.difference would it make to you, if your clients are criminal? Let's
:34:17. > :34:19.bear in mind I work with a lot of disabled clients, guys who are in
:34:20. > :34:25.dire, dire circumstances, not that I'm saying that entitles them to
:34:26. > :34:30.sex, I'm inviting the viewer to take a different view. What an insulting
:34:31. > :34:34.view. Don't talk across of me. Section 39 effectively says the
:34:35. > :34:40.police can come and kick my door in to investigate the fact I'm having
:34:41. > :34:46.consensual sex behind closed doors. Really quickly very briefly on
:34:47. > :34:48.legislation? In the European Parliament not yet. The point is you
:34:49. > :34:54.legislate for the majority. The majority of women who work in
:34:55. > :34:57.prostitution have either been traffiked or have been coming out of
:34:58. > :35:00.care. It is not free choice. There is clearly huge dispute over the
:35:01. > :35:04.numbers and strong views on all sides. We must leave it there, thank
:35:05. > :35:09.you all very much indeed for coming in.
:35:10. > :35:12.Thank you. The life story could be perfect tabloid fodder itself. A
:35:13. > :35:17.girl done good, from sweeping the floors and making the tea at the
:35:18. > :35:20.Warrington Guardian, to one of the most powerful newspaper editor jobs
:35:21. > :35:24.in the land. But the unfortunate twist of the hacking scandal landed
:35:25. > :35:27.Rebekah Brooks in the witness box today, as the defence case began,
:35:28. > :35:31.the judge ordered the jury to acquit her of one of the charges she faced.
:35:32. > :35:36.The one relating to the procurement of pictures of Prince William at
:35:37. > :35:41.Sandhurst. With all that information we have this report.
:35:42. > :35:44.She's best known as one of the most powerful and influential women in
:35:45. > :35:49.the country. Can we have it down for a bit now. Editor of Britain's two
:35:50. > :35:54.biggest-selling tabloids, personally close to prime ministers and a
:35:55. > :35:59.favourite of global media mogul, Rupert Murdoch. But that was then.
:36:00. > :36:03.Today at the Old Bailey, after months of prosecution evidence,
:36:04. > :36:09.Rebekah Brooks finally got the chance to tell her story. The
:36:10. > :36:14.opening exchanges with her QC, John lap Laidlaw, produced lots of the
:36:15. > :36:18.kind of colour, as they call it in the trade, that might well have
:36:19. > :36:26.graced the newspapers that Rebekah Brooks used to. She was born in
:36:27. > :36:32.Cheshire in 1968, an only child she looked after two aged grandparents.
:36:33. > :36:37.She was state educated, her father a gardener, her mother a PA. When she
:36:38. > :36:41.was 21 they split. But she said she had already caught the journalism
:36:42. > :36:45.bug from her grandmother. My grandmother she was a writer, she
:36:46. > :36:48.wrote a lot of poetry and wrote a protestity column for a local
:36:49. > :36:54.number. The idea probably stemmed from her. From a Saturday job at a
:36:55. > :36:59.local paper e owned by newspaper entrepeneur Eddie Shah, to London
:37:00. > :37:03.and the News of the World magazine, and in no time to the features
:37:04. > :37:06.department which she became head of at the age of 26. She described for
:37:07. > :37:11.the jury a very male newsroom culture. Dominated by internal
:37:12. > :37:15.competition. It was also standard practice, she said, for the news and
:37:16. > :37:19.features departments to each keep records of mistake, errors and other
:37:20. > :37:24.Sunday drew information about the other. And so it was Rebekah Brooks,
:37:25. > :37:35.told the court, that the news department had stories about her.
:37:36. > :37:42.That they had labelled "twit 1", "twit 2", "4, 5, 6" and so on. She
:37:43. > :37:50.described it as old school misogyny. But she did well. She brought the
:37:51. > :37:56.paper Gazza's shock confession to domestic violence and the interview
:37:57. > :38:02.with Divine Brown, the prostitute ought in action with Hugh Grant. It
:38:03. > :38:08.cost $250,000, money spent in part to stop colleagues from the Sun and
:38:09. > :38:17.Mail to get to her. It did Rebekah Brooks's helpcation bosses no harm
:38:18. > :38:21.at all. Rupert Murdoch began to take a personal interest, promoting her
:38:22. > :38:25.from features editor to deputy editor at the Sun, a big move
:38:26. > :38:31.considering she had no daily newspaper experience Bach to the
:38:32. > :38:35.Mirror editor, she was 32 years old. It is accepted that at that time
:38:36. > :38:44.significant amounts of phone hacking were going on at the News of the
:38:45. > :38:49.World, and some people have already pleaded guilty. Rebekah Brooks said
:38:50. > :38:56.she didn't even know the name of Glenn Mulcaire. With 125 editions in
:38:57. > :39:03.her two-and-a-half years as editor, 200 stories a week, and double that
:39:04. > :39:07.discussed at some point: It is impossible to know every source of
:39:08. > :39:11.every story because of the sheer volume of material coming into the
:39:12. > :39:16.paper. Which, along with much of the rest of what her QC took her through
:39:17. > :39:19.today will no doubt be a key plank of her defence, to the broad thrust
:39:20. > :39:25.of the prosecution case that she simply must have known what was
:39:26. > :39:30.going on. All the defendants deny all of the charges against them. Now
:39:31. > :39:36.it was meant to be a bit of friendly advise to take a look at what could
:39:37. > :39:39.be a matter of life and death. An e-mail published today revealed the
:39:40. > :39:43.Medical Director of the NHS in England told his counterpart in
:39:44. > :39:48.Wales that death rates in six Welsh hospitals ought to be investigated.
:39:49. > :39:54.Sir Bruce Keogh described the figures as "worrying". Similar types
:39:55. > :39:58.of data provided the vital clues as to what was going appallingly wrong
:39:59. > :40:01.at Stafford Hospital. But the Welsh authorities say so far there is no
:40:02. > :40:04.need to make further inquiries, whatever the data, some Welsh
:40:05. > :40:13.families believe they have been badly let down. Our policy editor
:40:14. > :40:18.has been to meet one of them. There was birth and condition, if you want
:40:19. > :40:22.to put it that way it was a result of the birth, subsequently his death
:40:23. > :40:26.was, and because he died in the situation around it the coroner had
:40:27. > :40:33.ordered an inquest. Which no parent should have to sit through. Noah
:40:34. > :40:38.Tyler died ten months old in December 2011. A coroner as
:40:39. > :40:44.described his dead to a gross failure in the care provider to him
:40:45. > :41:01.and his mother Colleen Tyler at the University Hospital of Wales in
:41:02. > :41:03.Cardiffder to him and his mother Colleen Tyler at the University
:41:04. > :41:06.Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. When she was born she was upstairs and he
:41:07. > :41:13.was put on a cooling mat to stop brain-damage. He had tubes and wires
:41:14. > :41:19.going in and out of everywhere. That is what the birth of Noah. His is
:41:20. > :41:24.just one of the cases that have contributed to high death rates
:41:25. > :41:28.among the hospitals' patients. Now a senior medical official who has just
:41:29. > :41:33.completed a review of 14 low-performing hospitals in England
:41:34. > :41:37.wants an inquiry. Sir Bruce Keogh, Medical Director of NHS England,
:41:38. > :41:41.wrote to his counterpart in Wales to suggest that he too should hold a
:41:42. > :41:45.similar investigation. Sir Bruce said that there are six hospitals in
:41:46. > :41:50.Wales, including University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff that show
:41:51. > :41:55.persistently high mortality rates. The letter itself is receipt weeks
:41:56. > :42:00.ordinary. Sir Bruce, an official with responsibility in England,
:42:01. > :42:08.takes direct issue with the quality of care in Wales. He said that those
:42:09. > :42:12.hospitals with poor mortality warranted investigation. He admitted
:42:13. > :42:15.he was worried about the political implications of that. Mortality
:42:16. > :42:23.statistics need to be treated with caution, but they can highlight
:42:24. > :42:27.serious problems. It was mortality numbers that first highlighted the
:42:28. > :42:32.hor roughically poor levels of care in Staffordshire. The Conservative
:42:33. > :42:35.MP who uncovered Sir Bruce's e-mail says Wales has failed to learn the
:42:36. > :42:39.lessons of that strategy. It is particularly appalling because it is
:42:40. > :42:44.so reminiscent of what we saw with mid-staffs, instead of saying good
:42:45. > :42:47.niece me what should -- goodness me what should we do with this data to
:42:48. > :42:51.make sure there is a problem. The reaction is there is nothing wrong
:42:52. > :42:56.with the data, nothing to see, carry on. Sir Bruce's letter also drew
:42:57. > :43:00.attention to the difference between NHS performance in England and in
:43:01. > :43:07.Wales. Almost half of all Welsh patient wait longer than six weeks
:43:08. > :43:13.for an MRI scan. In England fewer than 1% do. More than 10% of recent
:43:14. > :43:18.Welsh Accident and Emergency patients were kept waiting for
:43:19. > :43:23.longer than four hours, in England the equivalent number was under 5%.
:43:24. > :43:27.The NHS in England is very different to the NHS in Wales. Where as
:43:28. > :43:32.England has tried to drive up performance by using private
:43:33. > :43:36.providers, lots of data and lots of targets, Wales has largely kept to a
:43:37. > :43:39.rather old fashioned centralised form of management. The real
:43:40. > :43:46.question is whether that's now going to have to change? For today
:43:47. > :43:51.ministers are fending off Sir Bruce's critque. They say that they
:43:52. > :43:59.do not believe an inquiry is necessary. But others disagree. I
:44:00. > :44:03.hope and I pray that they will do something and they will look into
:44:04. > :44:08.it, because I can't get Noah back, my husband and I will have to one
:44:09. > :44:13.day explain to our son why his Big Brother isn't here. We have to live
:44:14. > :44:23.with that and the people that have lost their loved ones also they
:44:24. > :44:27.can't get them back. But it kind of takes away any positive meaning that
:44:28. > :44:31.comes from our loss, if they aren't even willing to look into it and
:44:32. > :44:38.make changes and to call it unnecessary. It is just a slap in
:44:39. > :44:42.the face as far as I'm concerned. With us tonight from Cardiff is the
:44:43. > :44:45.Welsh Health Minister Mark Drakeford. Thank you very much for
:44:46. > :44:50.joining us. Firstly, just to be clear, when your health service gets
:44:51. > :44:53.an e-mail from Sir Bruce Keogh, that's something worth paying
:44:54. > :44:58.attention to isn't it? And it was, it received very clear attention and
:44:59. > :45:04.very proper attention too. So when he, the most senior doctor in NHS
:45:05. > :45:07.England says six of your hospitals ought to be investigated, why on
:45:08. > :45:10.earth would you not launch an investigation? Well that is
:45:11. > :45:15.absolutely not what he said. And your report has very badly
:45:16. > :45:19.misrepresented Sir Bruce's e-mail, as well as being very badly
:45:20. > :45:24.factually flawed in a number of the assertions it has made. Mr Drakeford
:45:25. > :45:28.may I quote you the e-mail, and I quote directly, "I'm worried about
:45:29. > :45:34.the broader political implications of the data, there are six hospitals
:45:35. > :45:38.with a persistently high mortality which warrants investigating". He
:45:39. > :45:42.goes on to say he hasn't been able to do his own checks on the data.
:45:43. > :45:48.But he says "again it would seem sensible to investigate". On whose
:45:49. > :45:54.planet is it not worth at least taking a second look at this? Not on
:45:55. > :45:58.our planet, certainly, because we do take a second look. You are
:45:59. > :46:02.absolutely wrong to assert that we did not. Had you gone on and read
:46:03. > :46:06.the rest of that e-mail you would have found Sir Bruce saying that he
:46:07. > :46:11.didn't have data to validate, he didn't have data that bore out the
:46:12. > :46:16.data that had been passed to him. He was giving it to us to say it's
:46:17. > :46:21.worth investigating. We did. We published our mortality data every
:46:22. > :46:25.quarter, it showed the mortality rates in Welsh hospitals have
:46:26. > :46:29.improved quarter on quarter. Is Sir Bruce happy now with what is
:46:30. > :46:34.happening. He says clearly in this e-mail, despite the fact he has bent
:46:35. > :46:37.been able to check the -- he hasn't been able to check the data it
:46:38. > :46:41.warrants investigation. It seems sensible to investigate. Are you
:46:42. > :46:44.saying he was wrong and is he happy now? I think I have explained to you
:46:45. > :46:48.three times that we have investigated the data, and data is
:46:49. > :46:53.published for everyone to see. It is published every three months. Is Sir
:46:54. > :46:56.Bruce satisfied then? It is not for Sir Bruce to be satisfied or
:46:57. > :47:01.otherwise. Sir Bruce has no part to play in the Welsh NHS. Nor was he
:47:02. > :47:04.claiming to have one. He wasn't claiming it was up to him, but you
:47:05. > :47:10.established it was worth paying attention to what he has to say. He
:47:11. > :47:13.very properly passed on information that had been passed to him, saying
:47:14. > :47:18.to us that he thought we ought to look at it. We did exactly that. So
:47:19. > :47:21.you have concluded after what you are saying was an investigation,
:47:22. > :47:24.even though you apparently have officially refused to have an
:47:25. > :47:27.investigation that there is absolutely categorically no problem
:47:28. > :47:30.here in your view. You are saying that on the record? You are mixing
:47:31. > :47:34.up several things, you are asking me to agree to an assertion of yours,
:47:35. > :47:42.which I certainly won't. I'm asking you to respond to the quote directly
:47:43. > :47:47.from Sir Bruce Keogh? You give me a chance and I will do that. I have
:47:48. > :47:49.become coldly furious of the constant misrepresentation of the
:47:50. > :47:53.condition of the health service in Wales. A misrepresentation that is
:47:54. > :47:59.deeply politically manipulated and driven. Here in Wales we take data
:48:00. > :48:04.very seriously. If we are passed data we investigate that data. We
:48:05. > :48:09.have done so in relation to mortality figures. They show quarter
:48:10. > :48:13.after quarter that mortality levels in Welsh hospitals have improved.
:48:14. > :48:18.Does that mean that everything is as it should be? Of course not. Does it
:48:19. > :48:23.mean there is not more we could do? Of course there is, but does it mean
:48:24. > :48:34.that there is some deep crisis in the Welsh NHS? Absolutely certainly
:48:35. > :48:36.not. OK, well, Welsh Health Minister thank you for answering questions
:48:37. > :48:40.tonight. That is nearly all from us. As we showed you last night, David
:48:41. > :48:43.Bowie used the Brit Awards to channel a message to the people of
:48:44. > :48:49.Scotland, via Kate Moss. Imploring them not to leave the UK. So today
:48:50. > :48:52.Alex Salmond channelled some David Bowie into First Minister's
:48:53. > :49:01.questions. I'm sure the whole chamber will want to join me in
:49:02. > :49:04.congratulating eve Muirhead in winning the bronze medal in the
:49:05. > :49:11.winter Olympics. That is a demonstration that we all can be
:49:12. > :49:16.heros just for one day! How might the coolest rock unionist respond to
:49:17. > :49:25.that, only one to find out, ladies and gentlemen, Newsnight presents,
:49:26. > :49:33.Mr David Bowie. Or close enough. # It's a God awful small affair
:49:34. > :49:42.# But I want you to know I care # Major Tom is begging you know
:49:43. > :49:48.# And Ziggy doesn't you to go # Even though I am nowhere to be
:49:49. > :49:52.seen, # Us Because I live the American
:49:53. > :49:57.dream # They won't let you join the EU
:49:58. > :50:07.# There will be no pound in Aberdeen # Cameron might be a saddening bore
:50:08. > :50:14.# You but he's no Salmond # If we switch we will be like fools
:50:15. > :50:21.# I ask you to stay with a Scotland # Stick with us I urge you
:50:22. > :50:28.# Oh man I just don't want you to go # Better together you know
:50:29. > :50:35.# Please don't take Andy Murray # He's just as much our guy
:50:36. > :50:41.# Scotland wonder if you'll ever know
:50:42. > :50:51.# You're in a best-selling show # Don't put Fife on Mars
:50:52. > :51:01.Good evening, after a chilly night and maybe even a touch of frost in
:51:02. > :51:07.place, Friday is going to be a bright day for most of us with
:51:08. > :51:08.occasional showers and they will be heavy, hail and thunder as