:00:07. > :00:11.Ukraine rocked to its foundations by the most recent deaths, finally does
:00:12. > :00:17.a deal to bring the country back from the brink of Civil War. As the
:00:18. > :00:22.coffins of dead protestors are paraded through Independence Square,
:00:23. > :00:29.will the promise of future elections keep the two sides from each other's
:00:30. > :00:36.throats. We will hear live from Kiev. If I'm desoperate I will try
:00:37. > :00:41.to go for shoplifting, when you do it, it is for something to eat.
:00:42. > :00:45.Benefits sanctions now the Archbishop of Canterbury joins the
:00:46. > :00:49.clamour condemning the Government as policies. The former Children's
:00:50. > :00:54.Minister, walking away from politics tells us she is furious as well.
:00:55. > :01:03.Colourful adverts for top brand, Sony, Ford, fairy, BMW, does the
:01:04. > :01:14.Internet lay every fact about your product in black and white and is it
:01:15. > :01:20.necessary? ??FORCEDWHI It took the deaths of at least 77 people and
:01:21. > :01:24.hundreds injured to get Ukraine's opposition and Government to sign up
:01:25. > :01:28.to a mediated peace pact. The 2004 constitution will be restored, which
:01:29. > :01:32.will restrict President Yanukovych's power. An interim Government of
:01:33. > :01:35.National Unity will be put together within the fortnight. And there will
:01:36. > :01:40.be presidential elections by December at the latest. Also the
:01:41. > :01:47.opposition leader, Yulia Temeshenko, incarcerated for two years now, will
:01:48. > :01:55.be released from jail. Gabriel Gatehouse joins us from Kiev. Yes
:01:56. > :01:59.there were extraordinary emotional scenes as open coffins of the dead
:02:00. > :02:03.were paraded for the protestors to see. People trying, and in the
:02:04. > :02:07.middle of it all some of the opposition leaders took to the stage
:02:08. > :02:10.to announce the details of the deal they have made, they were booed off
:02:11. > :02:14.stage. Many of the protesters were not happy with it, particularly with
:02:15. > :02:17.the idea that the elections they have been demanding for so long
:02:18. > :02:23.could only be in do nearly a year away. It remains to be seen whether
:02:24. > :02:26.the people on the street accept the deal hammered out by the diplomats
:02:27. > :02:30.and the politicians. Meanwhile it has always been talked about as a
:02:31. > :02:33.conflict between east and west, between those who look towards
:02:34. > :02:38.Europe and those who look towards Russia. I have been walking around
:02:39. > :02:49.Kiev today looking at the deep historical divisions behind in
:02:50. > :02:53.conflict. Marching down to Independence Square, a column of
:02:54. > :03:02.policemen who have defected to the protesters. They chant "glory to
:03:03. > :03:07.Ukraine", echoing the slogan of the Ukrainian insurgent army, a national
:03:08. > :03:12.group that in the 1940s and 1950s had waged a doom guerrilla war
:03:13. > :03:18.against the Soviet regime. These officers have travelled all the way
:03:19. > :03:21.from the west of Ukraine. TRANSLATION: You can't shoot
:03:22. > :03:25.civilians in cold blood, it is wrong. We as officers, we know how
:03:26. > :03:31.to handle weapons, so we have come here to defend the people. Ukraine's
:03:32. > :03:35.security forces are in disarray, yesterday they were beaten back by
:03:36. > :03:47.the protesters, today they were order today vacate their positions
:03:48. > :03:50.outside parliament. News of the deal between the Government and the
:03:51. > :03:54.opposition filtered through to the square. Early elections, a unity
:03:55. > :03:59.Government and curbs on the President's powers. Until this
:04:00. > :04:02.week's bloody event those concessions might have been enough
:04:03. > :04:07.to end the protest. But not now. These people are going nowhere. The
:04:08. > :04:10.first thing first he needs to go away, Yanukovych. The President?
:04:11. > :04:16.Needs to go, needs to resign now. After that we can talk, anything
:04:17. > :04:19.else sun acceptable. Before you were all saying early elections and that
:04:20. > :04:24.would be fine, but now? Not any more, he's a kill, a murderer, a
:04:25. > :04:33.mass murderer, we need him to go, he's not the President any more. He
:04:34. > :04:39.is a murderer, nothing else. Echos of history were on display again as
:04:40. > :04:46.the defected officers were cheered by the crowd. "Glory to Ukraine",
:04:47. > :04:54.the old nationalist chant goes on, "death to our enemies". Ukraine and
:04:55. > :05:00.Russia's histories are inextricably intertwined. This is St Sofia's
:05:01. > :05:05.Cathedral, the oldest in the Russian Orthodox Church. It was built in the
:05:06. > :05:11.11th century when this city was the centre of the cradle of Russian
:05:12. > :05:16.civilisation. For many Russians this Cathedral is the spiritual birth
:05:17. > :05:20.place of their religion. And it is a powerful emotional reason why the
:05:21. > :05:29.Kremlin feels it absolutely cannot allow Ukraine to drop out of its
:05:30. > :05:33.orbit. In normal times this is the reason why many Ukraines from east
:05:34. > :05:36.and west feel a strong historical and cultural affinity to their
:05:37. > :05:40.brothers and sisters in Russia. But these are not normal times,
:05:41. > :05:45.especially when people start dying in the street, historical fault
:05:46. > :05:50.lines become exacerbated. The Second World War was Ukraine's darkest
:05:51. > :05:55.hour. Millions lost their lives. The eventual Soviet victory has
:05:56. > :06:00.officially been elevated to almost cult-like status. But not in western
:06:01. > :06:05.Ukraine. Where many see the Soviet liberation as just another
:06:06. > :06:09.occupation. The Ukrainian insurgent army, whose slogans the protesters
:06:10. > :06:14.now chant on Independence Square fought against the Soviets, a
:06:15. > :06:23.historical sin, many in the east can still not forgive. The slogan "glory
:06:24. > :06:28.to Ukraine", is not as scary as it used to be, "glory to the nation",
:06:29. > :06:33.which is answered normally with "death to the enemies", that is of
:06:34. > :06:39.course unacceptable for many, many people in history. Why? Because they
:06:40. > :06:43.think that they are some how classified as enemies within this
:06:44. > :06:51.reply. That the east is the enemy? Yes. At this time what unites
:06:52. > :06:58.Ukrainians? One very bad thing unites Ukrainians now, it is a fear
:06:59. > :07:05.of losing our country, the fear for losing our independence, and one
:07:06. > :07:11.very good thing unites us, it is an understanding that no-one will build
:07:12. > :07:15.our country instead of us. But will that and today's concessions be
:07:16. > :07:20.enough to prevent this country sliding deeper into conflict. Away
:07:21. > :07:25.from the protest square we met some young Ukrainians who fear it may
:07:26. > :07:33.already be too late. Do you think there will be a Civil War? There is
:07:34. > :07:38.a Civil War, even now, maybe in a very low level, but there is a Civil
:07:39. > :07:49.War. A lot of people are dying now and it is horrible that they cannot
:07:50. > :07:53.stop it. Amid the nationalist chants, the barricades feel more
:07:54. > :07:57.deserted this evening. Perhaps Ukraine has pulled back from the
:07:58. > :08:01.brink. But the blood still lies fresh on the cobble stones at the
:08:02. > :08:08.spot where so many young men lost their lives to sniper fire
:08:09. > :08:16.yesterday. Emotions are still raw, Ukraine's future remains perilously
:08:17. > :08:23.uncertain. Earlier I spoke to Ukraine's ambassador to the United
:08:24. > :08:28.Nations, Yuriy Sergeyev. Ambassador Sergeyev, the bloodshed has been
:08:29. > :08:31.horrific, particularly yesterday's bloodshed, surely this is a kind of
:08:32. > :08:37.deal that President Yanukovych could have done months ago? The opposition
:08:38. > :08:44.of the President, they tried to reach a compromise, but it never
:08:45. > :08:47.happened, even after the Prime Minister of the Government resigned.
:08:48. > :08:54.It happened only yesterday. Most probably after they recognised the
:08:55. > :08:59.magnitude of crisis and the huge amount of deaths on the streets.
:09:00. > :09:05.Most probably after that they found it possible to then speak. The
:09:06. > :09:10.protesters want President Yanukovych to go now. If a unity Government can
:09:11. > :09:18.be formed in 12 days only with his resignation do you think he will be
:09:19. > :09:24.prepared to go? I could understand the e -- emotion, and they lost
:09:25. > :09:29.their friends and relatives and the coffins surround them. I am afraid
:09:30. > :09:34.these demands could lead to another conflict. Yulia Temeshenko will be
:09:35. > :09:41.released from prison, would you like to see her run for President again?
:09:42. > :09:46.I was impressed that the decision to release Yulia Temeshenko was taken
:09:47. > :09:54.by the constitutional majority. Either she is going or not back to
:09:55. > :10:00.politics and for any elections that is beyond me to judge. Would you
:10:01. > :10:08.like to see Ukraine a member of the European Union within the decade?
:10:09. > :10:11.Undoubtedly, and it is written in our legislation, the European
:10:12. > :10:16.leaders, they keep saying, and yesterday confirmed, that doors are
:10:17. > :10:23.open. Are you prepared, do you think, for Russia to be hostile to
:10:24. > :10:29.any new overture or any renewed overture to Europe? Russia recently
:10:30. > :10:33.sent the message that the Russian Government is ready to co-operate
:10:34. > :10:40.with the new Ukrainian Government, the new Government could create both
:10:41. > :10:46.the good relations with the European Union through a cessationship, and
:10:47. > :10:56.probably with membership in future and to keep good relationships with
:10:57. > :11:00.Russia. Thank you. OW. The vice Prime Minister who served in the
:11:01. > :11:08.Government of Yulia Temeshenko, joins me from Kiev via science. Good
:11:09. > :11:14.evening? You heard the protestors in the film saying first things first,
:11:15. > :11:23.Viktor Yanukovych has to go away. No matter how the opposition leaders
:11:24. > :11:27.have phrased the deal. Do you think the protesters will buy it? No today
:11:28. > :11:31.I was talking to hundreds of people, it is impossible to convince them
:11:32. > :11:36.that they have to live with the first President in the
:11:37. > :11:40.newly-independent Ukraine on whose hands there is the blood of so many
:11:41. > :11:45.killed people. When they heard about the agreement that Yanukovych could
:11:46. > :11:52.stay until December, actually until there would be formalities, it means
:11:53. > :11:56.another year. Because it could be somewhere in January, people would
:11:57. > :12:00.never agree to this. If Yanukovych has good political instincts it is
:12:01. > :12:06.better for him not to try to put that behind certain agreement, but
:12:07. > :12:12.to accept the reality and go for early elections that can probably
:12:13. > :12:16.defuse the tension. Or defuse the tension by, returning to the 2004
:12:17. > :12:21.constitution he actually has much less power any way. Do you think he
:12:22. > :12:28.could be persuaded there is any chance he will be persuaded to stand
:12:29. > :12:33.down earlier? Very difficult to predict because on the one hand he
:12:34. > :12:36.wants presidential election, on the other hand the way he behaves is
:12:37. > :12:43.unpredictable and very, very irresponsible, I would say. He is
:12:44. > :12:48.making all possible mistakes and he, with his next decision he makes his
:12:49. > :12:53.personal situation, and therefore the country is more complicated. On
:12:54. > :12:57.that basis, because there was such an overwhelming shock of the
:12:58. > :13:00.bloodshed yesterday, if there was a return to violence, surely the
:13:01. > :13:06.pressure on him would be huge then to stand down immediately? There
:13:07. > :13:09.will be pressure on him and I strongly doubt that he is in charge
:13:10. > :13:15.of the country. I have been talking to some ambassadors, negotiators,
:13:16. > :13:18.they told me also, high-level negotiators, they said they are
:13:19. > :13:23.under the impression that they are talking to the wrong guy, that
:13:24. > :13:27.decisions are not made by him and not by his administration sometimes.
:13:28. > :13:30.You were part of the Government of Yulia Temeshenko, although you are
:13:31. > :13:36.not in the same party. What do you think the chances of her announcing,
:13:37. > :13:43.we don't know how well she is, but announcing that she would run for
:13:44. > :13:49.President? There should be a court decision letting her out first. Is
:13:50. > :13:53.it going to happen or not? Also it depends a lot on Yanukovych, he
:13:54. > :14:00.still controls the whole system, though this system is just crashing
:14:01. > :14:05.right before his nose. As for Yulia Temeshenko, well, no-one can say,
:14:06. > :14:10.but knowing her as I know her I can predict she will run. She's probably
:14:11. > :14:14.leaning now with revenge. To what extent it is good for the country,
:14:15. > :14:18.to what extent revenge is a good motivation is another story. But
:14:19. > :14:22.when she is out I can't imagine her being out of big politics. She's
:14:23. > :14:31.possessed, obsessed with desire to be at the top. Thank you very much
:14:32. > :14:36.indeed. Today the week-long collision between the pulpit and
:14:37. > :14:42.politics was stepped up by the intervention of the Archbishop of
:14:43. > :14:46.Canterbury in the row over sanctions over benefits designed to get people
:14:47. > :14:50.back to work. He wrote a letter signed by 40 Clergy decrying the
:14:51. > :14:54.benefit cuts, saying half a million people in the UK have visited food
:14:55. > :15:00.banks since last Easter. This is what I have got so far donate bid
:15:01. > :15:09.friends, neighbours and also the Citizens Advice Bureau. Terry has
:15:10. > :15:13.just had his job-seeker's allowance stopped, because he misread the date
:15:14. > :15:17.he had to sign on. Sanctions of stopping someone's benefits if they
:15:18. > :15:21.haven't made enough effort to look for work, are part of a package of
:15:22. > :15:25.reforms designed to get people back to work. I have only been out of
:15:26. > :15:30.work really for about two or three years inbetween jobs. The fact that
:15:31. > :15:34.I'm being penalised in such a way after paying in so much money in
:15:35. > :15:43.national insurance contributions, tax, etc, etc, I think it is an
:15:44. > :15:46.absolute disgrace. But those reform, say Church of England bishops are
:15:47. > :15:51.forcing people to choose between heating and eating. David Cameron
:15:52. > :15:55.has a moral imperative to act. The head of the Catholic Church in
:15:56. > :15:59.England and Wales blames the coalition for creating destitution.
:16:00. > :16:03.Ministers, he says, have torn apart the traditional safety net for the
:16:04. > :16:08.poor. And those words were backed up today by the Archbishop of
:16:09. > :16:14.Canterbury, those who criticise the coalition are simply giving voice to
:16:15. > :16:20.an upswell of feeling. On Monday's Newsnight rereported on the em--
:16:21. > :16:28.reported on the impact of benefits sanctions. It is really damp. At
:16:29. > :16:33.this foodbank in axe ington, staff say 70% of people coming in for food
:16:34. > :16:36.parcels have been sanctioned. How do you end the poverty trap, how do you
:16:37. > :16:43.make work pay? Is it right that people remain stuck on benefits? Is
:16:44. > :16:48.it moral? Well to discuss where moral arguments and benefits are the
:16:49. > :16:52.MPs Steve Baker a member of the Conservative Christian Fellowship,
:16:53. > :16:59.and Sarah Teather, the former Lib Dem families minister. First of all,
:17:00. > :17:02.both of you are Christians, and you follow faith, but your leader Nick
:17:03. > :17:08.Clegg said that the church leaders had got it wrong, they were
:17:09. > :17:12.exaggerating? Yes rather a patronising response from my leader
:17:13. > :17:17.there, and not very helpful and not in my view very well informed
:17:18. > :17:21.either. If I think about the experience of a lot of my
:17:22. > :17:24.constituents, I'm afraid I'm seeing far too many people who are made
:17:25. > :17:28.destitute and put into severe poverty by the benefit changes. I
:17:29. > :17:32.mean for example I had a woman where the whole of the last trimester of
:17:33. > :17:36.her pregnancy she had no money whatsoever. I had another case where
:17:37. > :17:41.somebody was sanctioned for failing to turn up at an appointment when
:17:42. > :17:46.she was having surgery for cancer. I am afraid the Archbishop's criticism
:17:47. > :17:50.this week really chimes with my own experience. And do you think the
:17:51. > :17:54.Clergy, the senior Clergy were right to put it in the terms they put it?
:17:55. > :17:57.The Clergy are right to speak up for the poor, of course, I don't think
:17:58. > :18:00.it was right when the Archbishop said that the welfare state has been
:18:01. > :18:04.torn away. I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. We are still paying
:18:05. > :18:08.job-seeker's allowance and pension, the health service is still there.
:18:09. > :18:12.But is it true that the welfare state is failing people and leaving
:18:13. > :18:16.them destitute, I am afraid it is. The bureaucracy is always
:18:17. > :18:20.inefficient, it is not way of dispensing kindness, like Sarah I
:18:21. > :18:24.have seen cases where as an MP I have had to step in and help.
:18:25. > :18:31.In terms of the moral purpose of politicians, is that often at odds
:18:32. > :18:37.with the actual facts of policy? That is a broad question. In this
:18:38. > :18:43.regard. They have a moral duty to lift people out of poverty? I think
:18:44. > :18:47.from my perspective it is difficult to discern what the clear moral
:18:48. > :18:52.vision is behind welfare reform, there is three things going on all
:18:53. > :18:55.at the same time, you have Iain Duncan Smith's original idea around
:18:56. > :19:00.Universal Credit, that was something supposed to provide a flexible
:19:01. > :19:03.dynamic system responding in real time to people's wage changes, that
:19:04. > :19:06.simplified the system that meant people were better off in work. In
:19:07. > :19:11.my view the original vision was a good thing. That was quite a moral
:19:12. > :19:18.vision from Iain Duncan Smith. It had a lot to commend it. The problem
:19:19. > :19:21.is it has been cut against by two other things. We have taken a lot of
:19:22. > :19:25.money out of the system undermining how it would work. The third-most
:19:26. > :19:30.important thing is it is overlaid by a number of directly political
:19:31. > :19:34.interventions that are more about trying to demonstrate whose side we
:19:35. > :19:37.are on rather than really about helping individuals get back into
:19:38. > :19:44.work. That is interesting, so in fact, let's take the money out of
:19:45. > :19:47.this, actually what the policy reflects is a political purpose and
:19:48. > :19:49.therefore you could say that actually it is not about the
:19:50. > :19:52.morality of it, it is about politics? I don't think that is fair
:19:53. > :19:58.comment. I think Iain Duncan Smith is a deeply moral man. I got
:19:59. > :20:02.involved with the Centre for Social Justice in 2007 or so. When you look
:20:03. > :20:06.back at the broken Britain, breakdown Britain report in 2006, it
:20:07. > :20:11.is clear even then there were profound failures in the welfare
:20:12. > :20:15.state. People living in entrenched cycles of poverty and the welfare
:20:16. > :20:19.state was not breaking. His whole journey is one of moral purpose and
:20:20. > :20:23.resconetruction. The idea of lifting people out of poverty and getting
:20:24. > :20:30.them out of the benefits cycle. But if you are a churchman, or
:20:31. > :20:34.churchwoman, and you see half a million people in food banks? So I
:20:35. > :20:38.would agree with the Archbishop there is an acute moral imperative
:20:39. > :20:41.to act, but who should act and who should pay for it. The problem we
:20:42. > :20:48.have is you can't take the money out. We are spending ?1 billion more
:20:49. > :20:51.a year than we can raise in tax. It is ?3,400 per taxpayer, we can't
:20:52. > :20:55.afford it. Who should be paying for this morally? I think there are two
:20:56. > :20:59.things, I would say, I don't accept the argument that the best way to
:21:00. > :21:03.balance the books for us as a country is to do it all on the backs
:21:04. > :21:08.of the poor. We have taken too much out of the benefits system, it has
:21:09. > :21:12.been done too quickly. You can make one change and people may have
:21:13. > :21:15.enough resilience to cope, when you make change, after change, after
:21:16. > :21:19.change, people have no capacity to deal with it. We have removed a lot
:21:20. > :21:23.of the system that is support people like the crisis loans and the social
:21:24. > :21:29.fund is not there in the same way that people are really able to
:21:30. > :21:34.access. Vincent Nichol is saying that it is immoral to leave people
:21:35. > :21:39.in destitution? It is immoral to leave people in destitution, we
:21:40. > :21:44.should lift them out of it, how should we do it. To answer the how
:21:45. > :21:47.to balance the budgets on the backs of the poor. Nobody wants to do.
:21:48. > :21:55.That but three quarters of the Government spending is social debt
:21:56. > :21:59.interest and education. The fact is, if we are going to protect the
:22:00. > :22:02.health and education budgets, if we can't keep cutting defence and
:22:03. > :22:08.foreign affairs, it has to come out somewhere. We can't cut pensions.
:22:09. > :22:10.Most of it has come out of the same group of people. I want to say
:22:11. > :22:14.something else, that is also, some of the things that have been most
:22:15. > :22:18.devastating don't save money. The overall benefit cap for example has
:22:19. > :22:21.a devastating impact on a small number of people, who have no
:22:22. > :22:25.possibility of making claims for themselves, but save no money for
:22:26. > :22:30.the country. Thank you very much indeed. Some of the most memorable
:22:31. > :22:36.images of the last 20 years have been in adverts, the Guinness
:22:37. > :22:40.toucan, the Milky Bar and the PG Tips Chimps. According to a new
:22:41. > :22:43.book, companies no longer need to spend millions building brands the
:22:44. > :22:48.Internet will do it for virtually no money. Now is about price comparison
:22:49. > :22:54.websites, customer reviews and trusts bloggers, is the era of big
:22:55. > :22:59.brands over. In a moment a former Saatchi and Saatchi executives talks
:23:00. > :23:03.to us. But first this. # I would like to buy the world a
:23:04. > :23:06.home # And furnish it with love
:23:07. > :23:12.# Grow apple trees # And honey bees
:23:13. > :23:18.# And snow white turtle to doves For more than a century Coca-Cola has
:23:19. > :23:22.been peddling so much more than brown cabonated water, this brand is
:23:23. > :23:26.not going flat any time soon. Some argue brands are under threat,
:23:27. > :23:31.because ads like this can so easily be drowned out by an ocean of
:23:32. > :23:36.on-line information. Some even predict that is brands could become
:23:37. > :23:40.mere museum exhibits. Back in the day it was hard to find out whether
:23:41. > :23:44.a Roberts Radio was better than a Decca, you could ask the bloke
:23:45. > :23:49.behind the counter or your next door neighbour, but it was hardly perfect
:23:50. > :23:53.information. People tended to rely on brand names, the Internet has
:23:54. > :23:57.changed all that, you can go on-line and read reviews by customers and
:23:58. > :24:02.experts, and you can still ask your neighbour and all your other friends
:24:03. > :24:06.on Facebook. Some argue the brand is much less important. I will mix it
:24:07. > :24:13.up a little bit today, I will do it on boxing and a review of the ASUS,
:24:14. > :24:20.66 dual band wireless... . It was the on-line techie reviewers that
:24:21. > :24:25.helped ASUS, a Taiwanese company with little label recognition to
:24:26. > :24:29.become the third-biggest seller of tablets. To enable the best web
:24:30. > :24:32.connection. Because they couldn't rely on brand name they say they
:24:33. > :24:38.broke through on quality of product and virtual word of mouth.
:24:39. > :24:45.Introducing the holiday assurance. But it is not just the tech sector,
:24:46. > :24:48.Hyundai say they expect customers to thoroughly research their cars
:24:49. > :24:53.on-line before they buy. It makes it much harder to hide behind the
:24:54. > :24:58.brand. 80% of the customers who go into a showroom today and buy a car,
:24:59. > :25:03.80% of them have already gone on-line. And what that has done, in
:25:04. > :25:09.terms of the purchasing of a vehicle, it has changed about 15
:25:10. > :25:14.years ago, people would visit four dealerships, today they visit one.
:25:15. > :25:17.Two dealerships. The reason being, so it is almost when they are going
:25:18. > :25:21.in there they have almost decided to buy that brand. So what they have
:25:22. > :25:25.done, they have done the investigation beforehand and they
:25:26. > :25:28.have done it on-line. Not everyone is convinced that all this
:25:29. > :25:32.information is necessarily very informative. In fact, it is
:25:33. > :25:38.overwhelming. The brand, they argue, has never been more important. The
:25:39. > :25:41.marketing industry has always loved to talk about brand loyalty, of
:25:42. > :25:46.nurturing relationships with consumers. But is this talk of
:25:47. > :25:54.monogamy ever been realistic, haven't customers always been serial
:25:55. > :26:04.adult at thor, take coke drinkers, the ultimate two-timers, 70% of them
:26:05. > :26:07.also prink Pepsi. So much for loyalty.
:26:08. > :26:12.We have the chair of the brand consultancy Brand Cap, and Emanual
:26:13. > :26:16.Rosen is the co-author of a new book, Absolute Value. It argues that
:26:17. > :26:20.the brands in decline in some sectors. Rosen ruchings you don't
:26:21. > :26:26.deny that people love brand, they feel a loyalty to brands, an
:26:27. > :26:33.affinity to a brand, it says something about them? In this book
:26:34. > :26:37.we are talking about a major shift in consumer decision making as you
:26:38. > :26:42.described in the last few minutes. Consumers increasingly rely on
:26:43. > :26:51.reviews from other user, from experts. Whenever they do that then
:26:52. > :26:55.they add affinity to the brand and a connection, and they play a reduced
:26:56. > :26:59.role. Brands are not disappearing, we are not saying it is the end of
:27:00. > :27:04.brand, but brands will play a reduced role in the quality proxy
:27:05. > :27:11.when people use alternative information sources such as reviews
:27:12. > :27:15.from users or experts. I was going to say though, presumably then you
:27:16. > :27:19.can have an unknown brand, but if you get the ear of an expert who
:27:20. > :27:23.then promotes it, it is a lot cheaper than spending a lot on a
:27:24. > :27:26.huge brand campaign? It is, absolutely, we have this debate over
:27:27. > :27:29.few years. There is a new social change or retail change or
:27:30. > :27:34.technology change and there is talk about the death of brands. But never
:27:35. > :27:39.one like the Internet? What's interesting about the Internet is
:27:40. > :27:42.great brands have grown up out of the internet. Despite the fact that
:27:43. > :27:46.the talk about the Internet was brands are dead, because it is all
:27:47. > :27:51.going to be exposed, prices will be laid bare and everything else. But
:27:52. > :27:55.we have Google, Facebook, Amazon, these arm so of the world's most --
:27:56. > :28:01.these are some of the world's most valuable brands. What doesn't work
:28:02. > :28:08.is marketing targeting up a mediocre product. That will be killed stone
:28:09. > :28:13.dead more quickly? Yeah, you have to be a great business and great brand.
:28:14. > :28:19.What about what Rita is saying, massive grand, Google, Amazon, Ebay,
:28:20. > :28:25.Apple, these are huge technology brands of the 21st century? That's
:28:26. > :28:31.true, but the thing is that the brand equity that these companies
:28:32. > :28:36.have created will play a reduced role in the decision by a customer
:28:37. > :28:41.for his next move. That is you know, you mentioned Google, Google
:28:42. > :28:48.introduced in 2009 a programme called Google Wave. Now Google had
:28:49. > :28:53.back then incredible goodwill... . I think we have a technology problem
:28:54. > :28:59.here! Clearly Google is not running that well. That issue, that he was
:29:00. > :29:02.raising there, the fact that just what you are saying, I suppose,
:29:03. > :29:06.Google had the brand called Google wave, and because it wasn't a
:29:07. > :29:11.successful programme it went down. And Apple had a problem for a while
:29:12. > :29:15.as well? Appleyard is the very best example, in this particular book
:29:16. > :29:19.they talk about in an almost perfect information world. But of course
:29:20. > :29:22.people aren't perfect. People are a bit messy, they make decisions to
:29:23. > :29:25.buy brands on not just rational grounds, and looking at lots of
:29:26. > :29:31.information, but emotional ground too, do I like it? Frankly, as far
:29:32. > :29:36.as information is concerned then human beings aren't going to be able
:29:37. > :29:41.to stay awake for much longer reading all these reviews and short
:29:42. > :29:45.cuts. You wouldn't deny that new product, start-ups and so on, that
:29:46. > :29:49.doesn't have huge budgets for brand building will turn to the Internet
:29:50. > :29:52.and you have to devise a different way of displaying a brand?
:29:53. > :29:56.Absolutely. You don't need a huge advertising budget any more. It is
:29:57. > :29:59.true. But what branding is these days, it is not just something you
:30:00. > :30:03.stick on a product and advertise. This is about everything you do and
:30:04. > :30:06.make and say in a business. So for example you need to make sure that
:30:07. > :30:09.your people understand what they are doing what your brand is about, so
:30:10. > :30:13.they can serve people in the right way. It is not just about the
:30:14. > :30:18.product itself. But is there a danger that actually we're going to
:30:19. > :30:24.have narrowing of choice then, because what happens is your arch
:30:25. > :30:27.blogger or expert or Go Compare sites or whatever will narrow what
:30:28. > :30:34.people want, which won't be such a good deal for the consumer because
:30:35. > :30:39.the price will go up? We won't see a narrowing, there is always
:30:40. > :30:43.development, and you have such competition that it forces companies
:30:44. > :30:46.to keep on innovating and improving their product. The way to generate
:30:47. > :30:52.long-term sustainable value is to create brand. Products come and go,
:30:53. > :30:56.people die, but brands live on. Out of the top 50 brands they have been
:30:57. > :31:00.there for 50 years or more. Thank you very much, we probably need a
:31:01. > :31:02.new brand of line to get us to America. That is all we have time
:31:03. > :31:05.for tonight. Jeremy is back on Monday, have a good weekend, good