:00:00. > :00:21.Tonight on Newsnight: If they are the biggest party my view is Ed
:00:22. > :00:29.should have the courage of his conviction and govern on a minority
:00:30. > :00:31.governance. The Hyde Park bombing killed four
:00:32. > :00:35.British soldiers and injured many others. Today one of the men accused
:00:36. > :00:38.of planting the bomb walked out of court because of assurances given by
:00:39. > :00:45.the British Government. What's going on?
:00:46. > :00:52.Tonight, the Prime Minister... Poor Eric, I knew him well.
:00:53. > :00:55.It's 30 years since Spitting Image began. Perpetrators and victims join
:00:56. > :01:04.us for a memorial service for television satire.
:01:05. > :01:09.Own joy coalition Government while you can you Liberal Democrats.
:01:10. > :01:12.Sources in the Conservative Party suggest David Cameron is going to
:01:13. > :01:17.rule out another coalition after the next election. Of course, there is
:01:18. > :01:21.the possibility of a deal with Ed Miliband's Labour Party. But not if
:01:22. > :01:25.the General Secretary of Unite, the biggest union in this country has
:01:26. > :01:30.anything to do with it. They pay a fifth of Labour's bills. The union
:01:31. > :01:33.has been blamed for the shambolic confrontation at the Grangemouth
:01:34. > :01:37.refinery and for trying to fix the by-election in the safe Labour seat
:01:38. > :01:42.of Falkirk last year. Len McCluskey has inherited the media's
:01:43. > :01:47.traditional bogey man costume worn by people like Arthur Scargill. I
:01:48. > :01:50.spoke to him this evening. Len McCluskey they say that David
:01:51. > :01:54.Cameron is about to make a speech in which he will rule out a coalition
:01:55. > :01:58.with the Lib Dems. Should Ed Miliband do the same? Yes, I think
:01:59. > :02:03.he should. I mean I think one of the things that people are looking for
:02:04. > :02:06.is something different and I'm afraid that's the reason why
:02:07. > :02:10.politicians are not particularly popular at the moment is people
:02:11. > :02:14.don't see any difference. So they're looking for people who have courage
:02:15. > :02:18.of their convictions. Labour, I hope, win the next election
:02:19. > :02:22.outright, but if they are the biggest party then my view is Ed
:02:23. > :02:25.should have the courage of his conviction and govern on a minority
:02:26. > :02:28.Government. When you look at what happened to
:02:29. > :02:36.the Labour Party over the last year or so, after the Falkirk business.
:02:37. > :02:40.And the reform of the role of the trade unions in the choosing of a
:02:41. > :02:44.leader. Are you going to advice your members they should become associate
:02:45. > :02:52.or affiliate members of the Labour Party? Yes. We are very much central
:02:53. > :02:55.to Unite's political strategy is to persuade our members to join the
:02:56. > :02:59.Labour Party and participate in politics so that the views and
:03:00. > :03:03.thoughts and aspirations of trade unionists, ie collectism and
:03:04. > :03:07.solidarity are at the core of Labour Party poll policy. So you could have
:03:08. > :03:11.more power at the end of this, couldn't you? We certainly could, if
:03:12. > :03:15.we work hard enough and Unite intends to. We intend to go out and
:03:16. > :03:20.persuade our members actively through a host of different mediums
:03:21. > :03:24.to join the Labour Party, to actively engage with the party
:03:25. > :03:28.because, of course, we believe in recent years, the Labour Party has
:03:29. > :03:32.lost the values that trade unionists bring to the party and we want to
:03:33. > :03:36.have more influence in our party. When you look at what happened in
:03:37. > :03:44.the Falkirk by-election, where members were recruited without their
:03:45. > :03:50.knowledge, members were pressured into completing direct debit forms
:03:51. > :03:55.and signatures forged? Jeremy, that's not true. You are repeating
:03:56. > :03:58.stuff that didn't happen. That's the internal investigation of the Labour
:03:59. > :04:00.Party? The internal investigation of the Labour Party resulted in the
:04:01. > :04:06.Labour Party announcing that there was no wrongdoing. You recall,
:04:07. > :04:11.Jeremy and this is important, last summer, I made it clear that Unite
:04:12. > :04:13.had done nothing wrong and I called for an independent inquiry and the
:04:14. > :04:18.Labour Party accepted that now and perhaps more importantly, police
:04:19. > :04:22.Scotland made it clear there was no wrongdoing.
:04:23. > :04:26.Can I ask you about the MPs that you sponsor? How many are there? Well,
:04:27. > :04:33.when you say sponsor, actually we don't sponsor MPs. That's not
:04:34. > :04:36.allowed in the Labour Party. We have constituency development plans and
:04:37. > :04:43.we are reviewing them. I think at the last count we probably had maybe
:04:44. > :04:48.102 Labour MPs who are members of Unite. What do you expect from them?
:04:49. > :04:52.We expect them to represent their constituencies. We hope in
:04:53. > :04:58.representing their constituencies that will correspond with many of
:04:59. > :05:06.the aspirations of trade unionists. You are fillan tra fists are you? It
:05:07. > :05:10.is our party. We created it. We want our party to be successful so the
:05:11. > :05:14.voice of ordinary working people can be heard. There is nothing
:05:15. > :05:19.complicated about that. Why do you think so many of your members appear
:05:20. > :05:23.to be voting for UKIP? Because we are a free and independent union. A
:05:24. > :05:27.number of our members can vote whichever way they want. You don't
:05:28. > :05:32.want them to and they are, they are voting for UKIP? There is nothing
:05:33. > :05:36.unusual wrong. It is called democracy. I know the Daily Mail
:05:37. > :05:43.would have you believe that Len McCluskey flicks a switch and one
:05:44. > :05:46.and-and-a-half million Unite members vote a particular way of the it is
:05:47. > :05:50.not like that. We are the big society and we are diverse in every
:05:51. > :05:54.sense of the word and of course, our members make their choices. Our
:05:55. > :05:59.polls tell us that 53% of our current membership will vote Labour,
:06:00. > :06:03.but UKIP, twice as many of our members will vote UKIP as they will
:06:04. > :06:07.the Conservative Party. That's their view and that reflects what's
:06:08. > :06:12.happening within... How can they be a member of your party and believe
:06:13. > :06:19.in UKIP? But they are not... A member of your union and vote UKIP?
:06:20. > :06:24.We have got individual, our members, who vote Conservative. We have got
:06:25. > :06:28.Conservative MPs who are members of Unite. Have you? Yes, we have
:06:29. > :06:34.indeed. You mentioned the right-wing media. What's it like being seen as
:06:35. > :06:38.an ogre? It is not particularly nice and it is not nice for friends and
:06:39. > :06:41.family to see you that way. Sometimes I have to wear it as a
:06:42. > :06:45.badge of honour and my members are the ones that I'm responsible to.
:06:46. > :06:51.They pay my wages and I have to make certain that anything I am saying is
:06:52. > :06:57.ensuring what they -- is in tune of what they believe and what the
:06:58. > :07:04.leadership is saying. I draw sustenance from that. Some of the
:07:05. > :07:10.attacks I read and they don't resemble me. Do they upset you? Not
:07:11. > :07:15.particularly. I'm a sensitive guy. You are loving it, aren't you? I'm
:07:16. > :07:19.not so much loving it. You are attacked by your enemies and you can
:07:20. > :07:22.scratch your head and think maybe I'm doing the right thing. Len
:07:23. > :07:26.McCluskey, thank you. Well, here to discuss all that is
:07:27. > :07:30.Laura Kuenssberg. On this question of coalition, both David Cameron is
:07:31. > :07:34.going to talk about it. There is advice for Ed Miliband. Why is it so
:07:35. > :07:38.current? Well, it is fascinating. We are just over a year before the next
:07:39. > :07:43.election and we are in a new world. We are in the pre-election coalition
:07:44. > :07:47.bartering before there may or may not be any real negotiations about
:07:48. > :07:50.coalition and the people on the sidelines, powerful people on the
:07:51. > :07:54.sidelines like Len McCluskey want to get their demands out there and
:07:55. > :07:58.David Cameron is reported to be saying he will rule out coalition,
:07:59. > :08:03.but the Number Ten position is not that and there has been a bit of
:08:04. > :08:06.cold water poured on that today in Westminster. But I think really we
:08:07. > :08:10.need to think about the ambitions here and the reality, the ambition
:08:11. > :08:16.for the Labour and Conservative Parties is outright victory. They bo
:08:17. > :08:20.know they are likely to end up in a messier situation, but the other
:08:21. > :08:23.realities are do existing ministers, Conservative or Liberal Democrat,
:08:24. > :08:29.want to carry on being ministers? Absolutely. Do Labour MPs want to be
:08:30. > :08:35.ministers when they grow up one day? Absolutely and do backbenchers in
:08:36. > :08:40.the Liberal Democrat parties want to be ministers? Absolutely. They will
:08:41. > :08:49.have to deal with the reality of the arrit a arithmetic of the election.
:08:50. > :08:53.This hasn't been your main Business Today. Your main businesstoday is
:08:54. > :08:57.trying to find out more after the mess you made last night with
:08:58. > :09:01.Harriet Harman's interview? Well, this time last night Harriet Harman
:09:02. > :09:08.went on the record after days of allegations about her involvement
:09:09. > :09:12.when she worked at the National Council for Civil Liberties and a
:09:13. > :09:15.group called the Paedophile Information Exchange. She has always
:09:16. > :09:21.denied they had any influence over policy, but she did today regret
:09:22. > :09:26.that there had been a link between the two organisations, but we were
:09:27. > :09:31.able to go into the National Council's archives today to look at
:09:32. > :09:37.how the groups were linked. Opening up the files, opening up the
:09:38. > :09:41.past, some of the papers from the National Council for Civil Liberties
:09:42. > :09:46.history. History shared by the deputy Labour leader, shared too by
:09:47. > :09:51.characters she might rather forget. Some of the documents are in Harriet
:09:52. > :09:55.Harman's own handwriting and these files illustrate just how hard she
:09:56. > :09:59.and other campaigners are worked on some of the defining issues of the
:10:00. > :10:05.day like equal rights for gay people. But what's also shown in the
:10:06. > :10:09.documents is that the Paedophile Information Exchange was part of the
:10:10. > :10:12.conversation that took place at the National Council for Civil
:10:13. > :10:16.Liberties. Despite countless documents from the
:10:17. > :10:20.paedophile group in the archives, Harriet Harman is adamant she was
:10:21. > :10:25.never influenced by them. Insistent the attempts by them to infill
:10:26. > :10:34.straight had no -- infiltrate had no impact and regrets the link. I'm not
:10:35. > :10:38.going to apologise. I regret this vile organisation ever existed and
:10:39. > :10:45.it ever had anything to do with NCCL, but it did not affect my work
:10:46. > :10:51.at NCCL. They were pushed to the margins before I went to NCCL and to
:10:52. > :10:59.allege I was involved in collusion or paedophilia or apologising for
:11:00. > :11:01.paedophilia is wrong and is a smear. Harriet Harman continued her
:11:02. > :11:07.campaign against The Mail's use of pictures of scantly clad young women
:11:08. > :11:11.using the digital pages of a Twitter. One of her senior Labour
:11:12. > :11:14.colleagues told me they were amazed that Harriet Harman refused to admit
:11:15. > :11:21.the affiliation when the paedophile group and her employer had been a
:11:22. > :11:27.mistake. Members of the public objected to the paedophile
:11:28. > :11:30.exchange's existence, never mind their campaigning. Jack Dromey has
:11:31. > :11:33.been one of the leading figures in the campaign against the Act.
:11:34. > :11:37.Harriet Harman says her husband, Jack Dromey, now also a Shadow
:11:38. > :11:43.minister, had squeezed out the group's influence before she even
:11:44. > :11:46.arrived at the National Council in 1978. Records from the time show
:11:47. > :11:50.they were one of dozens of organisations pushing for gay
:11:51. > :11:55.rights. But could a paedophile organisation really have been just
:11:56. > :11:58.another name on the list? Harriet Harman told us last night
:11:59. > :12:03.that the Paedophile Information Exchange was just one of more than
:12:04. > :12:06.1,000 groups that was affiliated to the National Council for Civil
:12:07. > :12:11.Liberties. She said its work was never influenced by that group. But
:12:12. > :12:16.this list we found shows the leader of the Paedophile Information
:12:17. > :12:22.Exchange had a position on the NCCL's gay rights committee. Sources
:12:23. > :12:26.close to Harriet Harman say paedophile hijacked the committee in
:12:27. > :12:31.the 19 70s and one of her former colleagues told me their agenda was
:12:32. > :12:36.never shared, let alone promoted. We had a lot more important things to
:12:37. > :12:39.do. It was not an influential organisation. It did not have any
:12:40. > :12:44.influential. It did not have any status and that's the way it was.
:12:45. > :12:49.The way it was, went too far for one Labour MP. It is hard to believe
:12:50. > :12:53.now, but they thought it was progressive. They had to take on the
:12:54. > :12:58.board the views of paedophiles. It seems extraordinary in this day and
:12:59. > :13:03.age, but that's what was happening through the 1970 s and into the
:13:04. > :13:07.1980s. Ed Miliband is backing Harriet Harman. The most senior
:13:08. > :13:13.woman on his frontbench, but the record of this episode has not yet
:13:14. > :13:20.been left to gather dust. Well, with us now from Washington is
:13:21. > :13:25.Professor Lawrence Gostin. He is adviser to President Obama, but
:13:26. > :13:28.between 1983 to 1985, he was General Secretary of the National Council
:13:29. > :13:31.for Civil Liberties, the organisation that's been attracting
:13:32. > :13:38.so much heat if not light in the last few days. Professor Lawrence
:13:39. > :13:45.Gostin what was an organisation like the Paedophile Information Exchange
:13:46. > :13:53.doing with the NCCL? Well, it was an affiliate
:13:54. > :13:57.organisation. When I came to NCCL it had been, but I think Harriet Harman
:13:58. > :14:04.is correct, it did not at least in my time have any influence on policy
:14:05. > :14:13.and I've always drawn a distinction I would be horrified if NCCL or
:14:14. > :14:16.Liberty were to take the position of the Paedophile Information Exchange
:14:17. > :14:21.because I think that children are vulnerable. They need to be
:14:22. > :14:28.protected, but it is the role of a civil liberties organisation to
:14:29. > :14:36.defend freedom of expression and to discuss those things in the Press,
:14:37. > :14:41.in Parliament are what a civil liberties organisation should do.
:14:42. > :14:46.Not to take the side, but to defend freedom of expression because that's
:14:47. > :14:50.what civil liberties do, they are party political neutral and they
:14:51. > :14:54.defend the right to freedom of expression.
:14:55. > :14:58.OK, we will come to that in a moment or two. Can I clarify one thing? Is
:14:59. > :15:01.it possible that Harriet Harman was unaware of the presence of the
:15:02. > :15:08.Paedophile Information Exchange within the NCCL?
:15:09. > :15:13.I wouldn't have thought so and my understanding is that Harriet has
:15:14. > :15:18.not said she was not aware of it, she was saying there was no
:15:19. > :15:27.influence by it in the policies of NCCL and that would be correct.
:15:28. > :15:37.Isn't it also the case that Mr Tom O'carroll sat on the NCCL's gay
:15:38. > :15:46.rights group? Well, I don't recall that. I don't recall it. It probably
:15:47. > :15:54.did occur and you know, it is important to make the distinction
:15:55. > :15:56.though, a human being, it is the Paedophile Information Exchange or
:15:57. > :16:01.it is about information, it is not the act and so I don't see a
:16:02. > :16:06.contradiction defending the information. It is defending the act
:16:07. > :16:10.that I worry about. Sharing information between people
:16:11. > :16:13.who practise the act Orban are interested in the act, is
:16:14. > :16:28.objectionable, isn't it? You know, there are so many things
:16:29. > :16:37.that I find actionable. I find neo-Nazi rhetoric objectionable. I
:16:38. > :16:44.find discussion about race is horrible. Do I think that
:16:45. > :16:52.paedophilia is horrible? Absolutely. It is unconscionable. But the
:16:53. > :16:57.discussion of it in a free society does need to be defended. That is
:16:58. > :17:11.why you have civil liberties organisations, to defend that. At
:17:12. > :17:15.this time, your belief was what? I disagree with what you say, but I
:17:16. > :17:24.will defend to the death your right to say it? That was the principal?
:17:25. > :17:31.That is a core principle of civil liberties organisation. In a society
:17:32. > :17:40.when people are always willing to condemn , what can't be condemned is
:17:41. > :17:46.the right of speech. If a journalist were to discuss views on both sides
:17:47. > :17:51.about any horrible issue, you would defend that. Every human being,
:17:52. > :17:58.every citizen, has the right to speak. That is not the right to act.
:17:59. > :18:07.There is a very strong line between the two. I would be appalled if NCCL
:18:08. > :18:12.or Liberty or the American Civil Liberties Union were to take the
:18:13. > :18:19.position that it was all right, we had to lower the age of consent. But
:18:20. > :18:25.to defend the right of all sides to openly in a free and fair society to
:18:26. > :18:29.discuss it, yes. In fact if you look at the European Union member states,
:18:30. > :18:34.there are wide variations is to the age of consent for sex. It is
:18:35. > :18:41.something that different societies have a friend views on. My own view
:18:42. > :18:48.is very strongly that a young person cannot consent because there is an
:18:49. > :18:53.imbalance of power, and I am very much opposed to it. But would I be
:18:54. > :19:01.opposed to somebody speaking about it? No, I would have to defend that.
:19:02. > :19:08.Someone in the administration of UK Justice has blundered. Big-time.
:19:09. > :19:12.They gave an assurance to a former IRA man that he wasn't wanted by the
:19:13. > :19:16.police. When he then passed through Britain last spring on his way to a
:19:17. > :19:19.holiday in Greece, he was arrested and charged with the murder of four
:19:20. > :19:22.soldiers killed in the Hyde Park bombings of 1982. His defence argued
:19:23. > :19:26.that the trial shouldn't go ahead because of the letter he'd been
:19:27. > :19:35.sent. The judge agreed. Jim Reed reports.
:19:36. > :19:42.The first blast killed two soldiers and hurt 23. A second explosion less
:19:43. > :19:49.than two hours later left six dead as 24 injured. The images are some
:19:50. > :19:56.of the most graphic of the IRA's mainland arming campaign. Today, the
:19:57. > :20:03.man suspected of planting that first bomb walked free from court. The
:20:04. > :20:07.case against John Downey collapse after he was sent what amounted to
:20:08. > :20:08.an immunity letter by mistake. The police service of Northern Ireland
:20:09. > :20:34.wrote to him saying: But Mr Downey, who has always denied
:20:35. > :20:37.murder, was still wanted by the Met police in connection with the
:20:38. > :20:41.bombing when he flew into Gatwick Airport last year on his way to
:20:42. > :20:46.Greece, and he was arrested. The judge ruled that the letter meant he
:20:47. > :20:52.could not be prosecuted. The decision was welcomed by Sinn Fein.
:20:53. > :20:58.It was the decision we were expecting. John Downey should never
:20:59. > :21:04.have been arrested. I welcome the fact that he is now released and
:21:05. > :21:11.free to go home. You said this was the result of an agreement tween
:21:12. > :21:18.Sinn Fein and the government? This was part of the Good Friday
:21:19. > :21:21.agreement. The police service of Northern Ireland apologised for what
:21:22. > :21:25.the judge called a catastrophic failure in sending out the letter.
:21:26. > :21:31.That should only happen if there was no realistic chance of conviction.
:21:32. > :21:36.Through this case it emerged that another 186 selected IRA members
:21:37. > :21:39.have been sent similar assurances. When the Good Friday agreement was
:21:40. > :21:44.signed, one aspect was so contentious, it couldn't be dealt
:21:45. > :21:48.with at the time. Republicans wanted by the authorities but living free
:21:49. > :21:54.outside Northern Ireland. In 2005, Peter Hain try to legislate to clear
:21:55. > :21:57.up their status, but the new law was rejected by Sinn Fein because any
:21:58. > :22:04.protection from prosecution would also have covered British soldiers.
:22:05. > :22:07.Peter Hain was accused by unionists of doing a deal behind their back by
:22:08. > :22:13.sending out secret assurances. Everybody knew that we had to deal
:22:14. > :22:19.with this anomaly. It was before Parliament. And then Sinn Fein, who
:22:20. > :22:23.had asked us to introduce this legislation, withdrew their support
:22:24. > :22:29.for it when they knew it would apply to British soldiers as well. And
:22:30. > :22:33.when that report was withdrawn, was it acceptable to say that we would
:22:34. > :22:36.have an agreement behind closed doors where letters were sent out
:22:37. > :22:42.rather than something in the open? How do you solve conflict? How do
:22:43. > :22:46.you end wars and terrorism except by negotiating a solution. There was
:22:47. > :22:53.nothing secret about this. The public didn't know. The public knew
:22:54. > :22:58.that there was this anomaly because we tried to introduce it legislated
:22:59. > :23:02.Lee. When that wasn't possible, what was the answer? Does anybody really
:23:03. > :23:06.think it would be better to go back to the war and the terrorism and the
:23:07. > :23:10.horror of Northern Ireland in the past, or to have us where we are
:23:11. > :23:17.now? For the families of victims, all talk of deals might not mean
:23:18. > :23:22.much. 32 years after the Hyde Park bombing, a monumental blunder, they
:23:23. > :23:28.say, has robbed them of any chance of justice.
:23:29. > :23:43.The lady is for returning! Karl Marx once wisely observed that
:23:44. > :23:47.while gold and silver may not naturally be money, money is by
:23:48. > :23:50.nature gold and silver. Gold is also present in devices like mobile
:23:51. > :23:53.phones. But how to ensure that money spent on a phone doesn't end up
:23:54. > :23:57.funding armed groups involved in atrocities like killing civilians or
:23:58. > :24:00.mass rape? Not very easily is the short answer, especially if the gold
:24:01. > :24:03.you bought went through Dubai. A former partner of Ernst Young has
:24:04. > :24:06.told Newsnight he audited the biggest refiner there and found
:24:07. > :24:13.clear breaches of international rules designed to stop the trade in
:24:14. > :24:17."conflict gold". After his firm - slogan "building a better working
:24:18. > :24:20.world" - turned a blind eye, he resigned, taking his story to the
:24:21. > :24:26.campaigning NGO Global Witness, who passed documents to Newsnight, Al
:24:27. > :24:36.Jazeera and the Guardian. Andy Verity's been investigating.
:24:37. > :24:45.Forget blood diamonds. Is the gold on your finger, around your neck or
:24:46. > :24:52.in your smartphone tainted with blood? In the eastern Congo, abusive
:24:53. > :24:59.armed groups exploit more than 400 gold mines. Extracted under harsh
:25:00. > :25:02.conditions, it is smuggled out in pockets and plastic bags across
:25:03. > :25:08.porous borders to Uganda and Burundi, out to the rest of the
:25:09. > :25:12.world. And unlike these pale imitations, they could be sold to
:25:13. > :25:16.you with no trace of its origin. Millions of people have died in
:25:17. > :25:23.eastern Congo from this war, and it is funded by minerals, including
:25:24. > :25:31.gold. This conflict gold is entering the global supply chain.
:25:32. > :25:40.We've learned that auditors from Ernst Young found that Dubai's
:25:41. > :25:44.biggest refiner, Kaloti, was failing to carry out all the checks on its
:25:45. > :25:48.supply. They alerted the regulator in Dubai, but the regulator changed
:25:49. > :25:53.its audit procedures to ally the most serious findings to be hidden
:25:54. > :25:59.from the gold buying public, and Ernst Young's managers went along
:26:00. > :26:03.with that. The auditor resigned and went on the record to tell me why. I
:26:04. > :26:08.wouldn't be able to live with myself. I wouldn't be able to come
:26:09. > :26:16.back home and look at my children and look them in the eye. Dubai has
:26:17. > :26:21.turned itself into an extravagantly glamorous destination for business
:26:22. > :26:24.people and holiday-makers. According to Global Witness and the United
:26:25. > :26:31.Nations, it is also big destination for conflict gold.
:26:32. > :26:40.With about a fifth of the world's trading physical gold, that is an
:26:41. > :26:44.image Dubai doesn't want. So it's metals regulator adopted
:26:45. > :26:47.international standards to show that traders were checking their gold
:26:48. > :26:51.supply thoroughly. There would be a third party auditor to check up on
:26:52. > :26:57.them, someone respectable like Ernst them, someone respectable like Ernst
:26:58. > :27:01.Young. Refiners are the choke point in the supply chain. They have
:27:02. > :27:07.an important role to play and must carry out checks all the way up the
:27:08. > :27:11.chain to the mine to find out what conditions of extraction work,
:27:12. > :27:18.whether the gold has funded conflict and what has happened along the way.
:27:19. > :27:24.A year ago, Ernst Young's auditors came to this cull of the refinery in
:27:25. > :27:28.Sharjah to find out how carefully it was checking up on its suppliers.
:27:29. > :27:32.Kaloti's managers hadn't bargained on how thorough the audit would be.
:27:33. > :27:45.During the course of the audit, we do started discovering disturbing
:27:46. > :27:54.findings such as cash transactions of over $5 billion by one refiner in
:27:55. > :27:59.one year. We found tonnes of gold bars coated silver, smuggled out
:28:00. > :28:04.through Morocco. As well as failure to verify the sources of high risk
:28:05. > :28:09.gold. One supplier had even been linked
:28:10. > :28:12.indirectly with armed rebels in eastern Congo, and later, Kaloti
:28:13. > :28:19.told them that paying for gold painted silver was normal. To the
:28:20. > :28:24.auditors, it was the worst sort of breach, classified as zero
:28:25. > :28:31.tolerance. Kaloti is on the 35th floor, and the regulator, on the
:28:32. > :28:37.first floor. Mr Rihan said it was far from keen on publicly shaming it
:28:38. > :28:43.upstairs neighbour. In May, the Dubai regulator's guidance required
:28:44. > :28:50.details of the auditor's findings to be made public, but the findings
:28:51. > :28:57.disappeared. Mr Rihan says that he believes the moving of the goalposts
:28:58. > :29:04.was no coincidence. Our final could lose in which state that the risk of
:29:05. > :29:13.conflict minerals entering Dubai is extremely high. So eight by having
:29:14. > :29:20.-- a Dubai -based regulator would not be happy. They went ahead and
:29:21. > :29:24.change their own guidelines in such a way that our findings and our
:29:25. > :29:30.final conclusions are not made public.
:29:31. > :29:33.The Dubai regulator denies changing its rules to keep the detail of the
:29:34. > :29:38.damaging findings out of public view. It says the rule changes were
:29:39. > :29:43.based on a consultant's advice and in line with international
:29:44. > :29:49.standards. Ernst Young's own code of conduct says its staff don't hide
:29:50. > :29:57.from or ignore issues. Concerned his firm was letting a cover-up take
:29:58. > :30:04.place, Mr Rihan wrote to Mark Otty, urging him to public the findings --
:30:05. > :30:17.publicise the findings. Since we were auditing, the guidelines say
:30:18. > :30:24.that the auditor shall notify the UK-based regulator within 24 hours.
:30:25. > :30:30.So I notified Ernst Young about that, and they decided not to notify
:30:31. > :30:34.the UK-based auditor. Ernst Young's managers said the firm
:30:35. > :30:40.wasn't required to notify the UK regulator, and claimed it would be a
:30:41. > :30:44.breach of confidentiality to do so. These confidential documents show
:30:45. > :30:47.that the audit team's findings were initially accepted by the refiner
:30:48. > :30:53.Kaloti, which privately acknowledged there had been a zero tolerance
:30:54. > :30:56.breach of the rules. But in November, after the goalposts were
:30:57. > :31:04.moved, Kaloti was able to declare itself fully compliant, and Ernst
:31:05. > :31:11.Young endorsed that is a fair view. Once melted, gold is clean. It can
:31:12. > :31:15.be sold to jewellery manufacturers, banks or governments, and if it has
:31:16. > :31:21.a murky origin, customers will be none the wiser. If refiners do not
:31:22. > :31:29.ask the right questions, the whole regime for cracking down on conflict
:31:30. > :31:36.gold simply doesn't work. Kaloti, the DMCC and Ernst Young all say
:31:37. > :31:39.they acted properly. Kaloti said allegations of non-compliance were
:31:40. > :31:42.without merit and it has adhered to all regulatory requirements. The
:31:43. > :31:49.DMCC say they haven't concealed any breaches or sought to influence
:31:50. > :31:52.Ernst Young. They claim their sourcing guidelines were not altered
:31:53. > :31:55.to favour any refinery or interfere with the audit process. Ernst
:31:56. > :31:58.Young Dubai say they did highly professional work in auditing Kaloti
:31:59. > :32:00.and have secured improvements in supply chains. Instances of
:32:01. > :32:04.non-compliance were fully reported to the regulator and client and
:32:05. > :32:05.corrected. They say they took the views of Mr Rihan seriously and
:32:06. > :32:19.acted on expert advice. 30 years ago this week the then
:32:20. > :32:21.Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, seized control of British
:32:22. > :32:25.television. Every Sunday night for a few weeks and then for several years
:32:26. > :32:28.afterwards, she and John Major and a leather jacketed Norman Tebbit and
:32:29. > :32:31.assorted vegetables had the undivided attention of anyone who
:32:32. > :32:34.believed that while the first duty of democratic citizens may be to
:32:35. > :32:38.choose their rulers, the second is to hold them in healthy contempt.
:32:39. > :32:40.Spitting Image and its bestiary made the careers of some satirists and
:32:41. > :32:45.finished those of some self-important politicians. Anthony
:32:46. > :32:49.Wall, editor of the BBC's Arena programme, has just finished a
:32:50. > :32:56.documentary about it. We asked him to take a look for us. His report
:32:57. > :33:00.contains flash photography. Say it to the whole Cabinet. Speak
:33:01. > :33:07.up, man. Say what you mean. You are not on the platform now. Nigel
:33:08. > :33:11.pinched my pen. Nigel, is this true? I know my policy on stealing from
:33:12. > :33:16.one's friends. Cabinet what do we call it when people go around
:33:17. > :33:23.stealing other people's property? You? A free-market economy. Rubbish.
:33:24. > :33:33.What do we call it David? Socialism. Well done, David. It knew no
:33:34. > :33:39.mercenary from 1984 to 1986, spitting image savaged politicians
:33:40. > :33:44.and anyone unlucky to get in its way. The show brought politics to a
:33:45. > :33:52.mass audience. It connected young people in numbers not seen before or
:33:53. > :33:56.since. If the satire of the 60s was broadsheet about issues, this was
:33:57. > :34:04.tabloid. Margaret Thatcher returns to Downing Street... Spitting image
:34:05. > :34:09.was born in a time of upheaval. Thatcher's was the most unpopular
:34:10. > :34:17.Government of the century. The show's rejection of deference. No
:34:18. > :34:23.one was safe. Not even the Queen. I name this baby Henry. May God bless
:34:24. > :34:28.him and all who sail in him. Hello, how marvellous to talk down to you.
:34:29. > :34:35.Politicians became defined by their puppets. Thatcher's iron grip on
:34:36. > :34:45.power became a sign of the times. Tomorrow belongs to me. Yes. John
:34:46. > :34:51.Major. You are still in the shit. Who do you blame? John Major was
:34:52. > :34:55.painted grey in the public imagination. What happens if we lose
:34:56. > :35:01.the next election? We'll merge, David. The leader of the Liberal
:35:02. > :35:05.Party, David Steel was never able to recover from the portrayal of him as
:35:06. > :35:14.squeezy voiced and tiny, in the pocket of STP founder David Owen.
:35:15. > :35:18.S magic was in the production. Characturists combined with John
:35:19. > :35:26.Lloyd and brought the puppets to life. Spitting Image became English
:35:27. > :35:30.characture and Punch and Judy. Most of the production team were
:35:31. > :35:35.television amateurs, but the product was a work of genius. By the way
:35:36. > :35:40.Norman, how are your children? Delicious, thank you. Clearly,
:35:41. > :35:48.Norman you are a sight. Let me get you someone to blow your nose on. I
:35:49. > :35:53.committed ?60,000 to a pilot. ?60,000 at the time was a lot of
:35:54. > :36:01.money. It was more than you would commit to a game show pilot. It was
:36:02. > :36:08.getting towards drama money. You have to go further than that to get
:36:09. > :36:18.people's attention. Just cut in a style that will be upon lard. --
:36:19. > :36:25.popular. Certainly, madam. Some worry that satire today lost its
:36:26. > :36:32.poke, it doesn't deliver the goods like Thatcher and her enemies. As
:36:33. > :36:40.media proliferated so have the spindoctors and back room flunkies
:36:41. > :36:47.whose job it to protect their master from scrutiny. Satirists today have
:36:48. > :36:55.to fire at more bleak targets. Are you saying I am no longer allowed to
:36:56. > :37:01.make media appearances? Correct. Peu was going to say, I don't think that
:37:02. > :37:17.war is unforeseeable. What is it then? Foreseeable. You want fucking
:37:18. > :37:27.declare a war. It is not inevitable, but not -- - you better work on this
:37:28. > :37:34.fucking line. Politicians r Politicians have had to give up
:37:35. > :37:39.control of air their image. If you have lost your trust, that's how I
:37:40. > :37:45.hope we can start to win it back. What's exciting now is the immediacy
:37:46. > :37:59.of satire. Because of the internet, because of Twitter, everyone can be
:38:00. > :38:05.a satirist now. When you look at Sit Spitting Inlg Image, if you are
:38:06. > :38:15.outside it then you can't do satire. Now, because it is democratised
:38:16. > :38:21.anyone can do satire. Every politician is a weasel. Every celeb
:38:22. > :38:34.fair game. No one enjoys immunity from the tweet. Spitting Image did
:38:35. > :38:51.more than most to dig the grave. In your opinion who but the bump in the
:38:52. > :38:53.bump... Single mothers. Joining me now are John Lloyd,
:38:54. > :39:03.producer of comedy programmes including Spitting Image, Blackadder
:39:04. > :39:06.and QI. Edwina Currie was Parliamentary
:39:07. > :39:09.Under Secretary for Health under Margaret Thatcher and also famously
:39:10. > :39:11.portrayed as a vampire and Rory Bremner, comedian and impressionist.
:39:12. > :39:14.You didn't really hate your characture did you, you have got it
:39:15. > :39:19.here? She is here. She is beautiful. Which one is which? Shut up. She is
:39:20. > :39:24.smiling. She is in better shape than yours, Jeremy. When I saw her, I
:39:25. > :39:29.thought well I am not too bad, but she has crossed teeth and I went
:39:30. > :39:34.straight to the dentist! Did it hurt you when you saw yourself par dayed
:39:35. > :39:39.like that? Everybody who was not on it wanted to be on it and everybody
:39:40. > :39:45.who was on it sort of half wished they weren't. But at least it was
:39:46. > :39:50.recognition. John Lloyd, do you think that affection like that draws
:39:51. > :39:54.the teeth of satire? Well, it is a complicated thing. The thing that I
:39:55. > :40:00.think is, as you have seen from the clips, the forgiving, the forgivable
:40:01. > :40:06.thing about Spitting Image, it is funny. It was breath takingly
:40:07. > :40:12.outrageously rude, but likeable. I was talking to a young Scottish
:40:13. > :40:17.journalist today who said seeing Major's puppet in grey was the first
:40:18. > :40:22.time he liked him. It had a peculiar thing. Norman Tebbit who is the
:40:23. > :40:26.villain in the leather jacket who once drank soup made from a human
:40:27. > :40:30.body because if the unemployed are so hungry why don't they eat
:40:31. > :40:36.themselves? He comes across, you can't help liking him. He is a
:40:37. > :40:42.pantomime villain really. What happened to it all? That's a good
:40:43. > :40:49.question. Margaret Thatcher, you got to say Meryl Streep let herself go a
:40:50. > :40:52.bit! Television has changed and people aren't commissioning satire.
:40:53. > :40:58.The commissioners I don't think they get it. In some ways, they don't
:40:59. > :41:04.understand satire. The culture has changed. The culture has changed, we
:41:05. > :41:08.are in the era of banter. It is banter everywhere and Twitter and it
:41:09. > :41:12.is immediate and it is more aggressive. It is a different kind
:41:13. > :41:15.of culture and the politics has changed and the politicians seem to
:41:16. > :41:21.have so much power. There is a lot of them that are quite nonentities
:41:22. > :41:28.in your time, one of the great achievements of Spitting Image was
:41:29. > :41:34.making household characters. They were hardly all brilliant figures,
:41:35. > :41:40.but Spitting Image managed to make them recognisable. They were more
:41:41. > :41:45.interesting. When we built the Cabinet, Charles Denton, the
:41:46. > :41:49.programme controller, somebody said, "Why are you building these people?
:41:50. > :41:57.Nobody knows who they are except for Mrs That thatcher." -- Mrs
:41:58. > :42:02.Thatcher." I said they soon will. That's why the politicians liked it
:42:03. > :42:05.because if you were on, you would be recognised everywhere and you would
:42:06. > :42:10.be taken a lot more seriously because you were on the programme.
:42:11. > :42:20.You were taken seriously despite being charactured as a vampire? I
:42:21. > :42:27.think I was taken seriously anyway. It had an affect because it sent you
:42:28. > :42:32.to the dentist? Margaret saw the characture of her with the mannish
:42:33. > :42:40.voice and the masculine suits and she thought goed idea and she
:42:41. > :42:46.changed. She became much less masculine and did very well at the
:42:47. > :42:54.next election. What about the vegetables They did the same! In t
:42:55. > :42:59.1960s Mike Yard, people would tune in and they would see their
:43:00. > :43:02.politicians in a funny light or a lampoony light and they would
:43:03. > :43:07.recognise who they were. We had the same thing with Alastair Campbell,
:43:08. > :43:12.we said we've got to do Alastair Campbell. People said who is
:43:13. > :43:16.Alastair Campbell and people won't know. People used to write to John
:43:17. > :43:22.and to us saying we learnt our politics from your programme.
:43:23. > :43:27.Newsnight doesn't get 12 or 15 million people like... In our
:43:28. > :43:35.dreams, I think. Do you remember Sir Robert Armstrong... With the
:43:36. > :43:39.actualality? We had a tip-off from Paul Foot saying this bloke Robert
:43:40. > :43:44.Armstrong is going to do something terrible tun of these dayings, done
:43:45. > :43:51.of these -- one of these days. We kept him in a cupboard and when he
:43:52. > :43:57.did his thing Spitting Image was off air. It was the most infuriating
:43:58. > :44:02.thing. With the current bunch of politicians, they seem a rather
:44:03. > :44:07.colourless lot, don't they? Would it be possible to satirise them? I
:44:08. > :44:12.pinched Rory's line when they said can you do Nick Clegg's voice and
:44:13. > :44:18.they said even Nick Clegg can't do his voice! There is the spindoctory
:44:19. > :44:20.thing is good. Watching your films earlier today, politicians don't
:44:21. > :44:26.wear the right tie anymore. They used to know who they were because
:44:27. > :44:33.Tories were proud to wear a blue tie and Labour wore red ones. I am a
:44:34. > :44:38.soft Tory or time a tough Labour guy and everybody is so charming and
:44:39. > :44:41.reasonable and what we liked at Spitting Image, the Tories were
:44:42. > :44:44.conviction politicians, they said what they meant and they didn't care
:44:45. > :44:48.what anyone thought and we were the same as television makers. We didn't
:44:49. > :44:52.give a hoot what the newspapers thought. We wanted to do a
:44:53. > :44:57.programme, it was terrific and stand-by it and so we fitted each
:44:58. > :45:00.other. Conviction politics, and conviction television, you get
:45:01. > :45:07.neither now. You are nodding away? He is right. What Spitting Image did
:45:08. > :45:12.for many of the viewers, it made politics real.
:45:13. > :45:14.I think it was true. It would be great to see something like that
:45:15. > :45:19.today. You could have all the main politicians just as dare I say it,
:45:20. > :45:26.just as faceless eggs or something, couldn't you? For Michael Gove he
:45:27. > :45:31.could be his own puppet! We have conviction politicians now. We have
:45:32. > :45:39.politicians who have convictions like Chris Huhne and Denis MacShane.
:45:40. > :45:44.John said before that you do need satire needs a strong politicians,
:45:45. > :45:52.but that's good for politics as well. The three most outspoken, the
:45:53. > :45:56.most self characturing politicians are Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, and
:45:57. > :46:00.Nigel Farrage. Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are two of the most
:46:01. > :46:05.popular politicians in the country. I think Spitting Image. I heard of a
:46:06. > :46:09.headmaster sacked after a year in the job, he wasn't sure why he was
:46:10. > :46:13.sacked and the governor said because you haven't managed to acquire a
:46:14. > :46:20.nickname! He didn't have an impact and that's
:46:21. > :46:23.the thing because politicians from Spitting Image knew who they were.
:46:24. > :46:26.One of the reasons why politicians are not nearly as well trusted as
:46:27. > :46:29.they have been in previous again raugsz, they are trying --
:46:30. > :46:32.generations, they are trying to be like each other and the public don't
:46:33. > :46:38.believe they would do the same if they got into power, they think
:46:39. > :46:43.there are differences and there is a degree of hypocrisy and Spitting
:46:44. > :46:55.Image identifies what they believe in. What they would really do and
:46:56. > :46:59.puts it double sized onhe screen. Do you think Spitting Image would be
:47:00. > :47:04.commissioned now? I don't think that there is any possibility. At the
:47:05. > :47:15.peak of my time, when it was number three in the ratings, getting 15
:47:16. > :47:18.million viewers, it was the most expensive light entertainment show
:47:19. > :47:25.on television, but it was also the most profitable, because they were
:47:26. > :47:30.selling the brakes for huge amount of money. People are prepared to
:47:31. > :47:36.spend tens of millions on a series to get enormous sales. Now everybody
:47:37. > :47:45.wants a little budget and a little result. As programme makers, we used
:47:46. > :47:49.to make programmes that we cared about and were responsible for, and
:47:50. > :47:55.so many people are worrying about what the Daily Mail will think, so
:47:56. > :48:03.you get programmes that are just all right. Do you see any sign of the
:48:04. > :48:08.tide turning? I don't think so. Alistair McGowan and Ronnie Ancona
:48:09. > :48:13.were talking about doing a satire programme, and they said, it needs
:48:14. > :48:17.to have a political edge, and you could feel the temperature in the
:48:18. > :48:20.room drop. People said, this is BBC One we are talking about. That is
:48:21. > :48:27.the climate amongst the commissioners. They are scared of
:48:28. > :48:33.politics? Yes, I think the thing that politicians are the people they
:48:34. > :48:41.talk to about the next round of broadcast legislation. That is self
:48:42. > :48:48.censorship, exactly what Spitting Image was against. And I think it is
:48:49. > :48:56.healthy to have it out of the open. That is all for tonight. And
:48:57. > :48:58.tomorrow night's show... The same left-wing Bolshevik
:48:59. > :49:03.nonsense that is on the BBC every night! Well, no more. Tomorrow
:49:04. > :49:09.belongs to me! We will be talking privatisation. You will be first,
:49:10. > :49:15.Jeremy. And who are all these people? Look at all this
:49:16. > :49:23.overmanning. Planning editor? What she do. Barton Macfarlane, he sounds
:49:24. > :49:37.like the commonest. Who switched out the lights? Arthur Scargill?
:49:38. > :49:45.Good evening. Wednesday is set to get off to a pretty chilly start.
:49:46. > :49:47.Heavy showers will quickly