:00:15. > :00:19.bring down the Northern Ireland Government after those promises
:00:20. > :00:23.collapsed the man accused over the Hyde Park bombing, there will be an
:00:24. > :00:28.inquiry. We will appoint a full independent judge to produce an add
:00:29. > :00:35.of the administrative scheme, to see if any other letters were sent in
:00:36. > :00:38.error. How fragile is power sharing if old secrets can push it to the
:00:39. > :00:43.edge. The man who signed off the first letter is here. Should the
:00:44. > :00:48.courts allow anyone to escape their pas Recent acquittals show
:00:49. > :00:52.decades-old accusations are not easy to prove. Some say they should be
:00:53. > :00:59.left to lie. There is an awful lot of money spent on these case, I
:01:00. > :01:03.would like the resources devoted to current issues and complaints. The
:01:04. > :01:08.Director of Public Prosecutions is here to tell us why that must not
:01:09. > :01:13.happen. What do Nelson's tea spot and
:01:14. > :01:20.Nureyev's hat stand have in common, they are part of one collection up
:01:21. > :01:24.for grabs. You can buy Al Capone's cocktail shaker. There is a certain
:01:25. > :01:34.frisson to a bloody Mary served out of that. Good evening. After the
:01:35. > :01:39.appalling botch that collapseded the trial of the suspected Hyde Park
:01:40. > :01:44.bomber, the system it exposed seems to have come close to collapsing the
:01:45. > :01:49.Northern Ireland Government. Having threatened and now withdrawn his
:01:50. > :01:54.possible resignation, the Peter Robinson, the First Minister, said
:01:55. > :01:57.letters that were given as assurances to republican terror
:01:58. > :02:03.suspects are worthless pieces of paper. There will be the inevitable
:02:04. > :02:08.inquiry, and fast, but still fury among unionists that they were shut
:02:09. > :02:11.out of the deal. We report now on old wounds re-opened. The force of
:02:12. > :02:16.the explosion was so great that parts of the car were flung across
:02:17. > :02:22.the park and into Knightsbridge. So too were nails. 32 years on and once
:02:23. > :02:27.again two explosives in central London is threatening to derail the
:02:28. > :02:32.Northern Ireland peace process. It was on this road in 1982 that four
:02:33. > :02:34.soldiers died and another 12 were seriously injured. The Prime
:02:35. > :02:39.Minister suspect in that bombing walked free this week after a judge
:02:40. > :02:43.ruled a letter he was sent by the authorities in 2007 effectively
:02:44. > :02:49.guaranteed he couldn't be prosecuted. That letter, it later
:02:50. > :02:53.turned out, w sent by mistake. But through the court process we also
:02:54. > :02:57.learned another 186 suspected IRA members, some on the run for decades
:02:58. > :03:02.have been sent similar written assurances they are no longer
:03:03. > :03:05.wanted. Sinn Fein have driven a coach and horses through mutual
:03:06. > :03:09.trust, and they are going to have to do something about that. Because
:03:10. > :03:17.they are endangering this process, which exists for the benefit of the
:03:18. > :03:23.one. Eight million people who live in this country for the benefit of
:03:24. > :03:25.200 named people, they know who they are, they consider them more
:03:26. > :03:31.valuable than the rest of the population. From what we know so far
:03:32. > :03:35.187 called on the run letters have been sent to republicans once
:03:36. > :03:40.suspected of crimes related to the troubles. No similar letters to
:03:41. > :03:46.loyalist suspects. 14149 of the letters went out under the last
:03:47. > :03:50.Labour Government. 38 since 2010 under the coalition this afternoon
:03:51. > :03:55.the Prime Minister promised a judge-led inquiry to make sure no
:03:56. > :04:01.other mistakes were made. We We should have a full inquiry into this
:04:02. > :04:07.scheme. We will appoint a fully independent judge to look into the
:04:08. > :04:11.administrative team to see if any other letters were sent in error.
:04:12. > :04:14.That concession appeared to calm Northern Ireland's First Minister,
:04:15. > :04:17.who until this afternoon was still threatening to resign and trigger
:04:18. > :04:22.fresh elections. I think the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State
:04:23. > :04:25.have been prompt, they have dealt with the issue seriously and in a
:04:26. > :04:29.manner satisfactory to me. I do not intend to resign on the basis that
:04:30. > :04:34.if you get what you want, why on earth would you want to resign.
:04:35. > :04:39.Another attack on the British mainland, this time in 1983, six
:04:40. > :04:44.were skilled in Knightsbridge after a coding warning came too late. The
:04:45. > :04:49.Harrods bombing was one of five deadly IRA attacks in London in the
:04:50. > :04:53.early 1980s. One of the main suspects went on the run for ten
:04:54. > :04:56.years and was never convicted of any terror offence. She now lives and
:04:57. > :05:00.works in Northern Ireland. Whether she and others like her received
:05:01. > :05:04.these letters we still don't know. Some unionists now want to see the
:05:05. > :05:09.names of all the individuals sent letters. Sinn Fein says this is a
:05:10. > :05:15.complete overreaction. These are people that the lawful process that
:05:16. > :05:18.Dominic Grieve spoke about yesterday in the British House of Commons,
:05:19. > :05:24.decided that no charges could be brought against them. These people
:05:25. > :05:30.didn't create or cause victims. But, there is an issue of perceived
:05:31. > :05:33.fairness here. Some are asking why suspected IRA members have been told
:05:34. > :05:37.they will no longer face ution, while a criminal investigation is
:05:38. > :05:42.under way into the actions of some soldiers in the 1970s. At the end of
:05:43. > :05:47.the Bloody Sunday Saville Inquiry, with the announcement of the PSNI
:05:48. > :05:51.that they will level murder charges against certain individuals even
:05:52. > :05:54.though the uptake of witnesses coming forward has been beyond
:05:55. > :05:59.pathetic. At the same time, almost in the same breath, we are hearing
:06:00. > :06:04.that those who murdered recklessly will escape justice. That is no
:06:05. > :06:07.justice. There is no balance and I think the Prime Minister needs to
:06:08. > :06:12.show leadership and draw a line under the whole matter now. But a
:06:13. > :06:15.blanket amnesty is not for the moment a realistic option. Peace
:06:16. > :06:19.might have been achieved in Northern Ireland, the immediate crisis might
:06:20. > :06:27.have passed. But angry talk of secret letters and deals still hangs
:06:28. > :06:31.over Stormont this evening. In a moment we will hear from Jonathan
:06:32. > :06:34.Powell, who signed off the first letters and chief British negotiator
:06:35. > :06:38.in Northern Ireland under Tony Blair. First David Ford, the Justice
:06:39. > :06:42.Minister in Northern Ireland, and the leader of the Alliance Party.
:06:43. > :06:47.And Gerry Kelly from Sinn Fein are both with us from Belfast. Thank you
:06:48. > :06:55.for being with us. How did you not know about this. Peter Hain says
:06:56. > :06:58.that suggestion is Ritzable? He can say what he likes but he's standing
:06:59. > :07:03.up in the House of Commons and saying we have to address the issue
:07:04. > :07:08.of the OTRs. It is not an explanation of what Peter Hain did.
:07:09. > :07:11.We knew the issue had to be addressed, and it should have been
:07:12. > :07:14.in an open, transparent and accountable way. That is what didn't
:07:15. > :07:18.happen. What did you think was happening with these people then.
:07:19. > :07:22.You knew the issue was being taken in hand what did you think was going
:07:23. > :07:27.on? We didn't know it was taken in hand. We knew people were saying it
:07:28. > :07:32.needed to be addressed. There were clear ways it could have been
:07:33. > :07:36.addressed under released under the Good Friday Agreement which people
:07:37. > :07:39.voted for and accepted in the Good Friday Agreement. We had no
:07:40. > :07:42.knowledge of what was being done by the Government and Sinn Fein. What
:07:43. > :07:46.should happen with the letters, Peter Robinson threatened to resign,
:07:47. > :07:50.saying not only should there be an inquiry but the letters should be
:07:51. > :07:57.torn up. He appears to be happy, should the letters be recinded or
:07:58. > :08:01.torn up? I'm not sure of the legalities of recinding, when Peter
:08:02. > :08:05.Robinson demanded for letters to be recinded, he seems to be demanding
:08:06. > :08:11.no that letters are restated, which is short of his demand. I agree with
:08:12. > :08:16.other people that this is such a mess and an independent inquiry is
:08:17. > :08:22.required, what where go from here. The listing of names will be a
:08:23. > :08:24.breach of obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights,
:08:25. > :08:26.the right to a private life and life.
:08:27. > :08:30.Do you understand why some people in unionist communities are furious
:08:31. > :08:34.about this and feel some how a deal was done between Sinn Fein and the
:08:35. > :08:40.British Government behind closed doors? Let me try to deal with this
:08:41. > :08:45.behind closed doors stuff. As David is only after saying, this was
:08:46. > :08:51.known, it was probably one of the most discussed issues throughout the
:08:52. > :09:01.last number of years. Why do so many senior unionists feel they know
:09:02. > :09:04.nothing All the evidence came out, this was brought up by the British
:09:05. > :09:10.Prime Minister saying they would raise it. It was raised in 2007 with
:09:11. > :09:13.the policing board and the DUP members were present, again in 2010
:09:14. > :09:18.at the policing board, where there was a report given on the scheme. At
:09:19. > :09:25.that stage. And the Bradley report on the past in 2009 it said there
:09:26. > :09:29.were 200 people in the process and 150 of them had been dealt with.
:09:30. > :09:35.What they didn't know was the private letter between British
:09:36. > :09:38.authorities and the person who asked to find out if they were being
:09:39. > :09:42.caught. Let's be here about this. And people are talking about all of
:09:43. > :09:52.these. Over 180 people as if they were convicted and tried the vast
:09:53. > :10:00.bulk of them were. They were being told that they weren't looking for
:10:01. > :10:05.them. What was now under this inquiry. What if there are people on
:10:06. > :10:11.the lists who are told there is evidence and they could be
:10:12. > :10:13.prosecuted? I can give my opinion when I see the statement of the
:10:14. > :10:19.British Prime Minister. In my opinion it is unnecessarily and a
:10:20. > :10:23.political fig leaf to allow the DUP to get out of the spot they put
:10:24. > :10:28.themselves in to. The hole they dug. If that is what it is there for that
:10:29. > :10:30.is fair enough. In fact for Peter Robinson to say that these letters
:10:31. > :10:36.aren't worth the paper they are written on. Surely that runs against
:10:37. > :10:43.logic if in fact the whole furore arose from the fact that there is a
:10:44. > :10:47.letter, which a court of law, in the last few days has said is a
:10:48. > :10:53.legitimate letter and is an atreatment. If arrest -- Agreement.
:10:54. > :10:58.If arrests come out of this inquiry, what impact will that have, what
:10:59. > :11:02.will happen? Nobody has mentioned any arrests, I don't expect there to
:11:03. > :11:06.be any arrests, what they have said is they want to find out if there
:11:07. > :11:15.are any other mistakes made. That is an entirely different thing from
:11:16. > :11:19.what Peter Robinson is claiming. Jonathan Powell do you, a massive
:11:20. > :11:23.miscommunication between these two communities. You have said that it
:11:24. > :11:28.is an administrative error, do you accept that the unionists feel they
:11:29. > :11:32.were is the out here and excluded and something was cooked up behind
:11:33. > :11:36.closed doors? No there has been an extraordinary muddle between two
:11:37. > :11:42.issues. The issues of on the runs arises out of all peace agreements
:11:43. > :11:45.and came up after the Good Friday agreement. The British and Irish
:11:46. > :11:50.Governments wrote to all-party leaders and said they wished to
:11:51. > :11:54.solve the issue of on the runs, we negotiated the issue for the rest of
:11:55. > :11:58.the Government from 2001-2007, we never reached the agreement and were
:11:59. > :12:04.unable to find a comprehensive agreement to on the moneys. People
:12:05. > :12:09.are modelling the issue of on the runs in a certificate yes, sir of
:12:10. > :12:13.administrative letters on people who would be wanted. They we sent
:12:14. > :12:17.individual letters saying they weren't wanted. It is not an amnesty
:12:18. > :12:21.or secret deal, it was a series of letters. There was a system set up,
:12:22. > :12:26.a series of letters, to deal with this k we have any confidence that
:12:27. > :12:34.there aren't other mistakes, there has been this one appalling botch --
:12:35. > :12:37.appalling botch. Can you sigh there are no other things? The police made
:12:38. > :12:40.a mistake in dealing with this letter. Instead of checking with the
:12:41. > :12:46.Metropolitan Police whether this man was wanted or not, they failed to do
:12:47. > :12:49.so. They issued him a letter saying he wasn't wanted when the
:12:50. > :12:55.Metropolitan Police wanted him. Weren't there other mistakes with
:12:56. > :12:58.similar consequences? I note the inquiry drawn out by the Prime
:12:59. > :13:02.Minister is narrow, it is dealing with whether other mistakes were
:13:03. > :13:06.made. And the question on could there be further incidents it
:13:07. > :13:13.couldn't happen. I would like at the letters to see if there were other
:13:14. > :13:18.mistakes in the letters. Except the system was set up here, there was
:13:19. > :13:21.mistakes made. The way it has happened has surely damaged the
:13:22. > :13:25.trust that was so critical to the progress of this whole process? I
:13:26. > :13:29.think if the price of keeping the Government going was to have an
:13:30. > :13:34.inquiry that is a sensible thing for David Cameron to do. I think there
:13:35. > :13:39.is a certain amount of this fury, if you look back at the parliamentary
:13:40. > :13:43.question answered by John Reed in 2002. He talked about the process
:13:44. > :13:47.and how many people had been dealt with. It was covered in other
:13:48. > :13:51.publications. You would have to be Australian observant if you didn't
:13:52. > :13:55.know it was happening. Do you think the unionists are bluffing some how?
:13:56. > :13:57.They are approaching elections and people are casting around and
:13:58. > :14:01.blaming other people. I hope they get to running Northern Ireland and
:14:02. > :14:04.the success that the Good Friday Agreement has been to bringing peace
:14:05. > :14:09.to Northern Ireland. They would have had to be fairly unobservant to know
:14:10. > :14:14.what was going on, that means they are deliberately look away or they
:14:15. > :14:17.wantant to know? You will -- want to know. You will have to ask them. It
:14:18. > :14:26.was not a secret, out there in the public domain they could have seen
:14:27. > :14:30.it. Coming up the North Korean exiles who want to return home.
:14:31. > :14:37.There are days I ask myself why did I choose to come here in the first
:14:38. > :14:43.place. If justice delayed is justice
:14:44. > :14:52.denied, perhaps crimes past should be pursued lend leasely --
:14:53. > :14:57.endlessly. With some failed celebrity trials the authorities
:14:58. > :15:00.have been accused of witch hunts. But the director of public
:15:01. > :15:04.prosecutor, Alison Saunders has made it plain to her prosecutors that
:15:05. > :15:08.they should press on. The date of alleged plans should not matter. She
:15:09. > :15:15.will tell us why in a few moments. Out of 16 arrests in Operation
:15:16. > :15:20.Yewtree, set up after revelations of Jimmy Savile's past crimes, only
:15:21. > :15:23.four charges have been made. Even if the intentions are laudible, are
:15:24. > :15:30.they realistic. Recent front pages have been peppered with historic
:15:31. > :15:37.sexual offence trials. Bill Roache and Michael Lavelle acquitted,
:15:38. > :15:43.Stuart Hall convicted, and continuing against Dave Lee Travis.
:15:44. > :15:51.Alison Saunders, the Director of Public Prosecutions wants more old
:15:52. > :15:55.cases to come too trial. Prosecutors will be told not to ignore cases
:15:56. > :16:00.even though they happened a long time ago. The decision is welcomed
:16:01. > :16:04.by Labour? What is important is the principle, if you have been abused
:16:05. > :16:07.we should be able to stand up for you, you should come in and you
:16:08. > :16:10.should be believed and we should do everything we can to make sure the
:16:11. > :16:14.case is proved and you get the justice you deserve. T guidelines
:16:15. > :16:18.apply to all crimes, they are expected to have particular effect
:16:19. > :16:21.on sexual offences, where victims are often reluctant to come
:16:22. > :16:25.forwards. If you were to report a burglary to the local police, you
:16:26. > :16:29.would at least expect them to believe a burglary have happened,
:16:30. > :16:34.but many victims of sexual advice don't even feel that basic level of
:16:35. > :16:38.assurance, let alone confidence that their assaliants will come to court.
:16:39. > :16:41.Thankfully things are getting better, largely because of
:16:42. > :16:46.specialist police officers who understand the sensitivities around
:16:47. > :16:52.these crimes. Even so, many victims still stay sigh nt.
:16:53. > :16:57.Old stigmas remain, and a senior official at the NSPCC told Newsnight
:16:58. > :17:06.he was worried a new one might be forming. Victims have told the
:17:07. > :17:13.charity that people will expect a financial notion. It doesn't log how
:17:14. > :17:18.many historic prosecutions it begins or how many are successful. There
:17:19. > :17:23.are practical questions about the evidence? We have seen some things
:17:24. > :17:27.so far, and there is a difficulty for court cases that rely on nailing
:17:28. > :17:32.down evidence, and what happened, in what time frame, in what
:17:33. > :17:35.circumstances? To go into that many decades afterwards. That is not
:17:36. > :17:39.something that can be wished away. There are worries about cost? There
:17:40. > :17:44.is an awful lot of money being spent on these cases. What I would prefer
:17:45. > :17:49.to see happen is the resources about be devoted to current issues and
:17:50. > :18:00.current complaints rather than those going back 30, years. D, 40 years.
:18:01. > :18:06.It is a political question. In my view it isth should be many of the
:18:07. > :18:09.offences against children and women and young people, they are the most
:18:10. > :18:14.difficult questions, if we are not there to protect them, what is the
:18:15. > :18:18.system about. The Director of Public Prosecution, Alison Saunders is here
:18:19. > :18:22.to discuss it with us. In a sense Emily is right, isn't she, this is a
:18:23. > :18:28.decision, a conscious decision, under political or public pressure
:18:29. > :18:33.to make up for past mistakes isn't it? It is not. We look at all cases,
:18:34. > :18:37.no matter when the allegations were or when the report of the offence
:18:38. > :18:41.takes place. We look at them all in the same way. We look for sufficient
:18:42. > :18:45.evidence for a Israelestic prospect of conviction, whether it is in the
:18:46. > :18:51.public interest to prosecute. If you look at them in the same way, why
:18:52. > :18:56.tell your prosecutors they must press on with historic allegations,
:18:57. > :18:59.if you looked past that you wouldn't have to make instruction at all. It
:19:00. > :19:05.is about reaffirming what the prosecution knows which is in some
:19:06. > :19:09.cases we will look to make sure that justice is done and victims get
:19:10. > :19:13.their day in court and if traditionally if there is going to
:19:14. > :19:18.be a very minor penalty imposed, that we might not go ahead. But in
:19:19. > :19:21.these cases, particularly in sexual offence cases we should think twice
:19:22. > :19:27.about that and have a look at what the victim also wants. Can you say
:19:28. > :19:32.hand on heart you will make this change, or reminding your
:19:33. > :19:36.prosecutors of this, if it hadn't been some of the revelations this
:19:37. > :19:39.year about how victims are laughed at and dismissed? This is a
:19:40. > :19:43.consultation that has come about because we have been looking at old
:19:44. > :19:49.cases. And where allegations have been made some time, there last been
:19:50. > :19:53.a delay in making them. Our awareness changes about what makes
:19:54. > :19:58.victims tell their stories later. Why they don't do it at the time and
:19:59. > :20:02.really king that into account. We have developed in our thinking.
:20:03. > :20:09.There is not very much that might make victims feel confident of that,
:20:10. > :20:15.sadly. There is a huge number of people coming forward, the BBC
:20:16. > :20:20.report that child abuse reporting goes up 80%, but the number of
:20:21. > :20:29.arrests goes down. Knowing that it is all very well telling your
:20:30. > :20:33.prosecutors to press on can their cases but how can they have
:20:34. > :20:43.confidence? Rewest prosecute a large amount of case as year. Sexual abuse
:20:44. > :20:49.cases we successfully brought out was 80 last year. If allegations
:20:50. > :20:53.have gone up by 70% it is not good enough. It shows people are
:20:54. > :20:57.confident in coming forward. You still have to investigate and there
:20:58. > :21:00.has to be the evidence that is accumulated in order to get an
:21:01. > :21:05.arrest. Doesn't that come to the difficulty, when you are talking
:21:06. > :21:10.about things decades ago, the evidence is harder to accumulate,
:21:11. > :21:18.memories fade, we have seen that in recent case, that is a big problem,
:21:19. > :21:22.is it not? It is but it is not insurmountable and we can base a few
:21:23. > :21:27.cases, the school in Buckinghamshire where we looked at prosecuting. A
:21:28. > :21:32.man was a teacher and headmaster, these took places a few years ago.
:21:33. > :21:36.Lots of places where we prosecute successful. Does it come down to a
:21:37. > :21:41.question of cash. You have lost a quarter of your legal staff how can
:21:42. > :21:45.you possibly devote all the resources you need to push these
:21:46. > :21:48.cases through. Is it not better to concentrate on cases that are
:21:49. > :21:51.happening now, when people are coming forward, rather than things
:21:52. > :21:55.that might be harder to get results on. This isn't an issue about
:21:56. > :21:58.resources but making sure we have the right evidence and it is in the
:21:59. > :22:02.public interest to prosecute. Wait in which we have resoared ourselves
:22:03. > :22:14.in order to deal with the resource issue has allowed us to. We now have
:22:15. > :22:17.13 RASSU, it is experienced officers looking at the cases who know what
:22:18. > :22:23.they are doing and really experienced. They really do know
:22:24. > :22:33.what they are doing. How can you apply extra resources
:22:34. > :22:37.for sometimes on by when they have made the most of it. We can use the
:22:38. > :22:40.resources we have changed from digital changes to put into the
:22:41. > :22:43.safety. It is about making sure we have the right evidence and it is in
:22:44. > :22:49.the public interest to prosecute them. Do you accept that
:22:50. > :22:55.prosecutions of allegations made in years gone by are you much -- are
:22:56. > :23:00.much harder to get results in court? I don't see why victims are treated
:23:01. > :23:04.any differently if they haven't made the allegation until now, why should
:23:05. > :23:08.we penalise them again. They should be treated in exactly the same way
:23:09. > :23:12.as current allegations and current victim, which is what we do. As you
:23:13. > :23:15.are here I must ask you on what's happened in the last few days in
:23:16. > :23:20.relation to the John Downey case and the collapse of that trial. Why did
:23:21. > :23:24.the CPS go ahead with the prosecution, even though he had that
:23:25. > :23:29.letter guarnteeing immunity. Why did it even come to that? It was a
:23:30. > :23:33.really serious allegation. When we looked at the letter we thought
:23:34. > :23:37.there was an arguable case to put before the court that said the
:23:38. > :23:40.letter didn't actually grant immunity. It was saying if there was
:23:41. > :23:43.legislative change, which there wasn't, then there would be
:23:44. > :23:47.immunity. We thought there was an arguable case, we should it before
:23:48. > :23:53.the court and the judge didn't criticise us for doing so, he
:23:54. > :24:03.disagreed with us. Could there be a retrial? Not unless there is new
:24:04. > :24:07.evidence. Is Why Why would you risk life and limb to
:24:08. > :24:12.escape a brutal regime, only to return. Some of North Korea's 25,000
:24:13. > :24:16.defectors who made it to the safety of the south are doing just that.
:24:17. > :24:21.Why are some of the new arrivals prepared to leave comfort, freedom
:24:22. > :24:31.and automatic South Korean citizenship behind, to go back to
:24:32. > :24:39.their repressive homeland. On a clear day soldiers patrolling South
:24:40. > :24:43.Korea's border can see North Koreans going about their lives. The
:24:44. > :24:48.closeness of the two warring armies means patrols are thorough. Despite
:24:49. > :24:54.land mines and watch towers between them, some North Korean defectors
:24:55. > :24:58.have made it across undetected. The soldiers are warned to be alert for
:24:59. > :25:03.signs of disturbance on both sides of the defence. A few months ago
:25:04. > :25:07.their unit shot and killed a man here in South Korea as he tried to
:25:08. > :25:15.swim across the river to the north. He's not the only one to try. Why
:25:16. > :25:19.would anyone want to leave South Korea's bustling capital for a life
:25:20. > :25:25.of hardship and repression in the north. Especially someone like Kim.
:25:26. > :25:30.He's a North Korean success story, he escaped to the south to # years
:25:31. > :25:34.ago, he's -- 20 years ago, he's married with two children and a
:25:35. > :25:37.successful career. He has already tried once to return to the north
:25:38. > :25:46.and is planning to do so again next year. TRANSLATION: It might appear I
:25:47. > :25:50.have succeeded in south Korea, I haven't, my parents are in there,
:25:51. > :25:55.and my siblings too, I haven't been able to see them. It is only natural
:25:56. > :26:03.for me to find ways to visit and do it openly and legally. It is illegal
:26:04. > :26:08.for South Korean citizen, including defectors to have any direct contact
:26:09. > :26:13.with North Korea. No phone calls, e-mails or letters. Those with
:26:14. > :26:16.family left behind push for warmer relations between the two
:26:17. > :26:23.Governments in the hope seeing their parents, brothers or sisters
:26:24. > :26:27.against. TRANSLATION: For me coming to South Korea was like tasting
:26:28. > :26:35.chocolate for the first time. Taste was so tweet I -- sweet I wanted to
:26:36. > :26:40.share it with them. I wanted to show what life is like, they have only
:26:41. > :26:47.the negative view of capitalism, I love this country so much I owe it
:26:48. > :26:51.to them to show it. He left his South Korean family in Seoul and
:26:52. > :26:54.travelled to China. He knocked on the door of the North Korean embassy
:26:55. > :27:00.there and said he wanted to go back to the motherland. Not forever, just
:27:01. > :27:09.for a holiday. They let him in for a chat and then they told him to get
:27:10. > :27:14.lost. They were really angry, he said. TRANSLATION: At the time
:27:15. > :27:18.relations between the two Koreas were good and South Koreans visited
:27:19. > :27:22.the north, nobody who came to the north tried t I was the first. There
:27:23. > :27:31.was no problems getting into the embassy, when they learned I was a
:27:32. > :27:40.part of it. I said I just wanted to visit my home down, they were very
:27:41. > :27:44.angry. He did manage to take a both across North Korea's border with
:27:45. > :27:48.China. He moored on the North Korean shoreline and filmed this rare
:27:49. > :27:52.footage of North Korean soldiers patrolling the river bank.
:27:53. > :27:55.Incredibly the soldiers allowed themselves to be filmed chatting,
:27:56. > :28:02.accepting money and even stepping on to the boat. We have blurred their
:28:03. > :28:08.faces to protect them. But to Mr Kim it is a sign that North Korea isn't
:28:09. > :28:14.that dangerous at all. Not everyone would agree. We went to meet someone
:28:15. > :28:19.who knows first hand the risks of living under the North Korean
:28:20. > :28:34.regime. A North Korean defector to fled here a year ago after leaving
:28:35. > :28:40.North Korea's prison camp number 12. TRANSLATION: I saw large maggots
:28:41. > :28:45.going around, coming out of the corpes. People would dash for them
:28:46. > :28:53.and put them in their pockets, they ate them later. I wondered if they
:28:54. > :28:58.would be poisonous, and people were eating them to keep alive. I
:28:59. > :29:02.wondered if I would. Others would capture rats and eat them raw, I
:29:03. > :29:06.remember their mouths covered in blood. I have seen so many people
:29:07. > :29:13.killed for breaking minor rules. In my cell alone three people were
:29:14. > :29:17.killed within a month. Would you go back? Never, why would I go back to
:29:18. > :29:25.that place of darkness. I wouldn't go, I would rather die. This was the
:29:26. > :29:29.river that greeted Kim 18 months ago as he arrived in China with his wife
:29:30. > :29:36.and child. They were North Korean defectors, running from economic
:29:37. > :29:41.problems in the south. Mr Kim's plan was to redefect to North Korea by
:29:42. > :29:46.swimming across the river. But the current was too strong, so he went
:29:47. > :29:50.and knocked on the door of the nearest North Korean consulate
:29:51. > :29:54.instead. It took him a week to persuade them he was serious, then
:29:55. > :30:03.they let him in. When he arrived the regime threw and press conference,
:30:04. > :30:06.Mr Kim and his family were taken to Pyongyang and paraded in front of
:30:07. > :30:14.journalists there. He told them defectors like him who escaped to
:30:15. > :30:19.South Korea were the victims of humam rights activists COMPLIERG
:30:20. > :30:24.against the Korean -- conprioring against the state. Figures kept by
:30:25. > :30:29.the South Korean Government say 13 defectors have returned home, but
:30:30. > :30:34.activists say many more have gone back unofficially. For Mr Kim, life
:30:35. > :30:40.in the south was now a distant memory, it is capitalist democracy
:30:41. > :30:45.reviled and criticised. Except a few months later he decided to come
:30:46. > :30:49.back. South Korea wasn't so welcoming a second time. Mr Kim was
:30:50. > :30:55.hauled in front of this court behind me and asked to explain his erratic
:30:56. > :31:02.behaviour. His lawyer cited financi difficulties in the north, other
:31:03. > :31:05.propers suggested he may have feared for his safety. The court was
:31:06. > :31:10.unamused and gave him a three-year jail sentence. We asked permission
:31:11. > :31:15.to visit Mr Kim but it was denied. We moat to him instead and got this
:31:16. > :31:21.reply. In it Mr Kim says that the press conferences arranged by North
:31:22. > :31:25.Korea to showcase return detectors are compulsory, with speakers forced
:31:26. > :31:35.to take part. This is my real and desperate story, he writes. Finding
:31:36. > :31:40.place in South Korean society isn't easy for defectors. At this boarding
:31:41. > :31:45.school for North Korean children in Seoul, staff teach core values like
:31:46. > :31:50.trust and self-sufficiency alongside lessons in basic Korean language.
:31:51. > :31:56.The two countries have been insulated from each other for so
:31:57. > :32:06.long, that even the words used in the south can be foreign. It is hard
:32:07. > :32:13.to find an America Di Canio know in the -- Americaano. But the
:32:14. > :32:23.curriculum here is designed to steer them towards jobs that don't require
:32:24. > :32:27.IT or employment skills. Mr Son, like other defectors got a package
:32:28. > :32:34.of Government support on arrival, including this But debt problems
:32:35. > :32:39.meant bailiffs took his fridge and washing opinion. Now his food ass
:32:40. > :32:43.are stored on the unbeated balcony. Strapped between financial struggle
:32:44. > :32:54.in the south and lack of contact with his family in the north. Mr Son
:32:55. > :32:58.has drawn attention by applying to the Korean Government for permission
:32:59. > :33:05.to go home. TRANSLATION: Over the years I have noticed the political
:33:06. > :33:13.indifference and the interior battles they have. I asked myself
:33:14. > :33:17.why I chose to come here, anywhere a North Korean person goes can face
:33:18. > :33:23.discrimination. But the discrimination from your people is
:33:24. > :33:36.terrible. One rule suggests 10,000 hours of practice leads to mastery
:33:37. > :33:41.in each instrument. There is a new theory in town, and it is very
:33:42. > :33:47.controversial. Academics from Yale University, Amy Chua, and Jen
:33:48. > :33:50.Rubenfeld, also husband and wife are advocating the triple package. We
:33:51. > :33:59.will hear from them in just a second. First why don't they think
:34:00. > :34:05.three is the magic number. This book struck a nerve and generateded a
:34:06. > :34:10.roar of publicity, with an unswerving part biographical
:34:11. > :34:15.synopsis of strict Chinese parenting. Now she's back with a new
:34:16. > :34:19.theory. This time tackling the apparent taboo of why some cultural
:34:20. > :34:25.groups in America are queen cyst tently more successful -- are consit
:34:26. > :34:30.tently more successful than others. Statistics show it is down to a so
:34:31. > :34:35.called triple package of factors. The first is superiority complex,
:34:36. > :34:39.people in some groups, she says, simply believe in their own talents
:34:40. > :34:44.or feel they are destined to improve. The second in congras
:34:45. > :34:49.diction is insecurity. Immigrants for example, she claims, feel like
:34:50. > :34:57.they have more to prove. Or need to try harder just to be equal. And
:34:58. > :34:59.then it is impulse control, good old fashioned self-discipline, some
:35:00. > :35:05.parents are better at instilling than others. Is this really ground
:35:06. > :35:13.breaking research or just a new list of cultural stereotypes.
:35:14. > :35:17.It is a fascinating territory this. But when you look at some of the
:35:18. > :35:24.things you say in the book, for example, why do so many Jews win so
:35:25. > :35:28.many noble and Pulitzer Prizes, that sounds like a new modern kind of
:35:29. > :35:33.racism doesn't it? I think it is the opposite what we show in their book,
:35:34. > :35:37.first of all, is some of the most successful groups in America today
:35:38. > :35:42.are black and Hispanic. Right off the bat it shows success has nothing
:35:43. > :35:45.to do with skin colour or race. Secondly we showed the groups that
:35:46. > :35:50.are very successful change dramatically over time. Asian
:35:51. > :35:54.Americans they are extraordinary successful academically in the first
:35:55. > :35:59.and second generations, by the third generation Asian American students
:36:00. > :36:03.perform no better than the rest of the country. It is nothing
:36:04. > :36:08.instrainsic in the culture. Let's take another example, why are
:36:09. > :36:13.Mormans running the business and finance sections. You are running
:36:14. > :36:18.massive broad brush-type assumptions here? It is not assumptioning. It is
:36:19. > :36:24.a matter of fact, American Jews are less than 2% of the adult
:36:25. > :36:27.population, and they have over a third of America's Nobel Prizes.
:36:28. > :36:33.That is a fact and a little puzzling to me, what does it mean, you can't
:36:34. > :36:38.state facts. Have you we got to the point if we state facts about
:36:39. > :36:45.racism. We say things in the book like Asian American kids are
:36:46. > :36:48.spending 70-100% more time on school work than the rest of the country.
:36:49. > :36:54.It is a matter of fact. That is called cultural racism. If that is
:36:55. > :36:58.cultural racism to state that fact, we will leave the entire stream of
:36:59. > :37:02.race to the extremists who have genuine racist views happy to tell
:37:03. > :37:08.you what they think all over the media. If pro--ive people are too --
:37:09. > :37:12.progressive people are to afraid to enter the fray then... You say all
:37:13. > :37:16.you are doing is highlight he can success here, who are not on your
:37:17. > :37:21.list? First of all it is not about good and bad groups. That is what
:37:22. > :37:24.your book is all about, success, superiority, how do you get to the
:37:25. > :37:30.top? It is about certain behaviours and who is doing well right now. We
:37:31. > :37:33.say there are certain behaviours, partly the combination of feeling
:37:34. > :37:40.exceptional and insecure that creates this drive and discipline.
:37:41. > :37:44.These behaviours are open to people of any ethnicity and any group. You
:37:45. > :37:48.pick out groups that are doing well and those who are not. Certain
:37:49. > :37:51.groups are instilling the qualities more in their families, in their
:37:52. > :37:57.children, and therefore they are doing better. Our idea is rather
:37:58. > :38:01.than make it taboo let's figure out some behaviours, it is pretty
:38:02. > :38:07.simple. We show these groups start at a young age, pre-school, more
:38:08. > :38:12.fork can hes used behaviour -- focussed behaviour. If we hide the
:38:13. > :38:17.information, you don't he don't need to worry, you can't say that because
:38:18. > :38:22.how can it lead to progress and deal with education reform. What about
:38:23. > :38:33.happiness, you are preaching in this group, your triple package,
:38:34. > :38:36.security, discipline. What about enjoying yourself? We have two
:38:37. > :38:42.chapters where we lay out the problem. It is an honest look of the
:38:43. > :38:46.costs of this drive that some groups are instilling with their kids, it
:38:47. > :38:50.is not a mischaracterisation in the book. We point out at the extreme
:38:51. > :38:56.this is culture and upbringing can produce a great deal of unlapness.
:38:57. > :39:00.In fact if any of us had a potten to to push that chose between success
:39:01. > :39:06.and happiness, we all pick happiness. Is it that simple. You
:39:07. > :39:11.over row Manchester United nice kids, you don't give them the tools
:39:12. > :39:16.to survive in this economy. Will they be happy? I suspect your
:39:17. > :39:21.message might raise more eyebrows than it has in the US. What can we
:39:22. > :39:26.learn from what you are preaching and put anything the book? One thing
:39:27. > :39:29.we notice is a lot of the successful groups are instilling in their
:39:30. > :39:37.families and children this message. Which is very unpolitically correct,
:39:38. > :39:42.we believe in you but not good enough yet. That feeling seems very
:39:43. > :39:46.nasty to tell your child they are not good enough yet, but I think
:39:47. > :39:53.about the other extreme, feeling you are not quite good enough and
:39:54. > :40:00.feeling you need to prove yourself is titled wide. The arts market
:40:01. > :40:04.isn't always a pretty picture, people with enormous chequebooks
:40:05. > :40:08.buying books they don't really want, because they can. On show right now
:40:09. > :40:15.is something rather different, a collection put together with love. A
:40:16. > :40:35.pick and mix of misselly, a thousand pigs, s or Saab wells -- Orsan Wales
:40:36. > :40:40.script. Outfoxed but criminally undervalued, Stephen Smith took
:40:41. > :40:44.himself along to Sothebys for an exclusive look at the catalogue. It
:40:45. > :40:47.is one of those things you can't not want to take home with you, it was
:40:48. > :41:06.awkward because it wouldn't fit in the back of the cap!
:41:07. > :41:14.This is fun I like this. Chris is parting with the collection of a
:41:15. > :41:23.lifetime. Art and furniture. Object and conversation pieces. Some of
:41:24. > :41:25.them more like ex-clam makes mark -- ex-clamation marks. The
:41:26. > :41:32.extraordinary thing about this, it was discovered by an amateur
:41:33. > :41:38.archaeologist. Somebody who was able to recognise that this was an
:41:39. > :41:45.Anglo-Saxon limestone, I think it is, have you found it in a ladies'?
:41:46. > :41:51.Garden and went and inyard about it, the lady said it was a stone she had
:41:52. > :42:00.found and used it as a sort of head stone for a dead stray cat. It was
:42:01. > :42:04.called Winkle. How sweet. For more than 30 years Chris on the right
:42:05. > :42:11.here was the partner of Stanley Seeger, the heir to an oil and
:42:12. > :42:19.timber fortune. Their homes were cabinets of curiosities, filled with
:42:20. > :42:24.great paintings. But also store-front-signage that caught
:42:25. > :42:28.their eye, and dinosaur eggs. Were you as bad as each other, if you
:42:29. > :42:34.forgive the expression, or did Stanley take the lead? We competed.
:42:35. > :42:42.Did you? We competed, we were like a two-man raid. I think Stanley wanted
:42:43. > :42:46.to impress me with what he had found, and I would have to find
:42:47. > :42:50.something that was probably even more... That could thump it?
:42:51. > :42:55.something that was probably even Yes. We helped each other, we were
:42:56. > :42:58.like two naughty school boys, we would have stolen apples together if
:42:59. > :43:09.that is what it took. It was fun. It was great. It was a spree and a
:43:10. > :43:15.laugh? ? It was a spree and a lark. 1,000 curios are going under the
:43:16. > :43:19.hammer next week. With estimates ranging from ?100 to ?120,000. Many
:43:20. > :43:31.have an interesting provenance, as they say. This belonged to Rudolf
:43:32. > :43:36.you are in yes the world's best -- Nureyev, the world's best coat
:43:37. > :43:46.stand, you get a lot on there. It is great. This was presented to Al
:43:47. > :43:54.Capone, by the boys. In 1932. "To a regular guy" isn't that great. There
:43:55. > :44:01.is a certain frisson to a bloody Mary served out of that. Nelson's
:44:02. > :44:04.teapot, I think this is what he is meant to have taken to sea? You
:44:05. > :44:11.didn't just acquire these things and put them in a humidified vault to
:44:12. > :44:15.appreciate did you. Unlike some collectors with their treasures. I
:44:16. > :44:20.don't know, no, we look at these things. You are very hands on. Did
:44:21. > :44:31.you enjoy saying to each other fancy a couple of tea from the Nelson
:44:32. > :44:36.depot. It sounds precious. More movie buffs this particularly lot is
:44:37. > :44:47.the equivalent of the Dead Sea scrolls, it ises or son Orson Wells
:44:48. > :44:51.own copy of the script. It would have been on the desk of the
:44:52. > :45:00.director for read throughs. There was only a quibble, don't call it
:45:01. > :45:07.American, why not go with Citizen Kane. Home for stand low and Chris
:45:08. > :45:11.was once Paul Getty's former mansion, Sutton Place, they made
:45:12. > :45:17.sure they weren't in if there were visitors. Who acquired those
:45:18. > :45:28.horrific works of art? Well they are part of Mr Seeger's collection. It
:45:29. > :45:32.was Francis Bacon which the pair sold in 2001, for a record price of
:45:33. > :45:39.?9 million. A fraction of what it is worth now. They also had # eight
:45:40. > :45:46.Picassos for a time. I remember at breakfast saying Christopher I need
:45:47. > :45:53.a rose picture, a rose period. Keep your ayes open. One came along and
:45:54. > :46:02.then the collection was sort of done. Proceeds from the auction will
:46:03. > :46:09.benefit Seeger's favourite charities and academic research. The only
:46:10. > :46:14.problem for me is that since Stanley died I'm constantly being reminded's
:46:15. > :46:19.dead. Everywhere I look it is "the late Stanley J Seeger". It might be
:46:20. > :46:30.better if it was the early Stanley J seeinger, I wouldn't mind having him
:46:31. > :46:39.back. Guess what know -- snow on the way for most of us. According to its
:46:40. > :46:42.creator it took a microscope and to produce it. He then did something in
:46:43. > :47:25.the edit because it looked nicer. Good night. Wintry weather
:47:26. > :47:30.overnight, further south strong winds for a time in the far
:47:31. > :47:31.south-west, easing through the morning and there will be some snow.