:00:00. > :00:11.Ed Miliband will not be matching David Cameron's pledge of a
:00:12. > :00:17.referendum on Europe in 2017. Is there now a clear line between them?
:00:18. > :00:24.On one of the most contentious issues in contemporary politics.
:00:25. > :00:28.Labour say it would take a significant transfer of powers to
:00:29. > :00:32.offer an in-out referendum. Is this political bravery to stay away from
:00:33. > :00:36.the Tory line or will they pay for it at the European elections.
:00:37. > :00:44.How did a father from Crawley end up suicide bombing a Syrian jail? If my
:00:45. > :00:50.brother had been a British soldier, the British people, in that prison,
:00:51. > :00:56.and the act he did, the act of heroism or bravery he did, I know he
:00:57. > :01:03.would have been awarded the posthumous Victoria Cross. Requiem
:01:04. > :01:10.for a union boss outside a tube station, did we all secretly love
:01:11. > :01:22.Bob Crow. One of these two is less than entirely sure. Not even the
:01:23. > :01:26.greatest fans of the European Union claim that it's exactly popular at
:01:27. > :01:31.present. And this country's relationship with the EU is
:01:32. > :01:33.confidently expected to be a major battle ground in the next election.
:01:34. > :01:38.The Conservatives have already promised that they will try to
:01:39. > :01:42.renegotiate the relationship, and that the British people will be
:01:43. > :01:46.given the chance to vote in a referendum on whether to stay in or
:01:47. > :01:51.leave. Tomorrow Ed Miliband will announce that while Labour wants to
:01:52. > :01:56.stay in, there will be no more transfer of powers from London to
:01:57. > :02:01.Brussels, without a referendum. Similar words, very different
:02:02. > :02:06.meanings. Emily explains. The key thing is not what Ed Miliband is
:02:07. > :02:10.saying he will do, I guess what he's implicitly saying he won't do. We
:02:11. > :02:13.have learned tonight he won't be matching David Cameron's pledge, as
:02:14. > :02:17.you describe it, to hold a referendum on Europe in 2017. What
:02:18. > :02:21.Labour calls an arbitary timetable about an issue that doesn't really
:02:22. > :02:23.resonate with the voters. Neither will he give the Tories the
:02:24. > :02:27.satisfaction of ruling out a referendum all together. So tomorrow
:02:28. > :02:32.Ed Miliband will announce that they are legislating a new lock, forgive
:02:33. > :02:37.that it is Brussels speak, he is promising there will be no transfer
:02:38. > :02:41.of powers from the UK to the EU without a referendum, a clear
:02:42. > :02:45.referendum on our continued membership of the EU. Now he says
:02:46. > :02:52.this is not a scenario that he thinks is likely, it is not even a
:02:53. > :02:58.at all likely, but he says it is not impossible. Has anyone reacted yet?
:02:59. > :03:01.We have heard via Twitter from David Cameron, who has put only the
:03:02. > :03:04.Conservative Party can guarantee and deliver that in-out referendum. But
:03:05. > :03:11.perhaps what is fascinating about this story is the way the same line
:03:12. > :03:15.is running in diametrically opposite directions. You can either hear it
:03:16. > :03:19.as a pledge he will offer a referendum in that particular
:03:20. > :03:24.scenario, or he has ruled it out. Before I came on air I talked to
:03:25. > :03:30.Labour heavy-hitter, and they said the big deal is Ed Miliband has
:03:31. > :03:33.bitten the bullet and won't fall in behind the PM's referendum. David
:03:34. > :03:39.Cameron and George Osborne are desperate for Ed Miliband to fall in
:03:40. > :03:43.behind the issue and neutralise the issue and stop the damage done so it
:03:44. > :03:47.is two sides of the same coin. If they could have Ed Miliband on side
:03:48. > :03:50.and David Cameron could point and say what did he get out of the
:03:51. > :03:55.referendum commitment, nothing. It didn't stop UKIP, it didn't make
:03:56. > :04:00.Angela Merkel fall at his feet or silence his own backbench critics.
:04:01. > :04:06.Perhaps Ed Miliband is playing a shrewd game here. If Ed Miliband is
:04:07. > :04:10.right, then voters put Europe about 13th on the list of things that
:04:11. > :04:12.really matter to them. In other words, it shouldn't be something
:04:13. > :04:16.that any of the parties take that seriously. But if it wasn't that
:04:17. > :04:19.much of a worry, well perhaps we wouldn't be hearing quite so much
:04:20. > :04:23.about it. And certainly for all their talk of the significance of
:04:24. > :04:26.the cost of living crisis and jobs, tomorrow the Labour leader will
:04:27. > :04:32.tackle the Europe issue head on. With a concession that Europe, as
:04:33. > :04:37.they might say, isn't working. I know the reputation of the EU is
:04:38. > :04:46.with reason at a low-ebb he might say:
:04:47. > :05:04.SGLLT he will be writing in the FT newspaper and go on to say:
:05:05. > :05:09.Where do the stories stand? David Cameron made that clear a year ago?
:05:10. > :05:16.We will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in or
:05:17. > :05:22.out choice, to stay in the European Union on these new terms or to come
:05:23. > :05:26.out all together. It will be an in-out referendum. Of course there
:05:27. > :05:30.are plenty in his party that would wish him to go further and indeed
:05:31. > :05:37.quicker. But a private members' bill, representing the Cameron
:05:38. > :05:41.position was defeated by Labour and the Lib Dem peers in January. The
:05:42. > :05:44.Tories will attempt to bring back the legislation later this year.
:05:45. > :05:47.UKIP have one of the clearest positions on Europe, they just want
:05:48. > :05:52.to leave the EU all together. They question the number of jobs that
:05:53. > :05:58.come from the union, and indeed how dependant the British economy is on
:05:59. > :06:01.Europe. Last week one UKIP MEP admitted the transition couldn't and
:06:02. > :06:06.wouldn't happen in fewer than five years. Be more in, vote Lib Dem.
:06:07. > :06:09.Just this weekend Nick Clegg announced that the choice at the
:06:10. > :06:14.European elections would be between them and UKIP. He would take on what
:06:15. > :06:19.he called "backwards-looking politics", he said they would be the
:06:20. > :06:24.party of "in" and UKIP would be the party of "out". Everyone else he
:06:25. > :06:30.intimated was ssing around in the middle, threatening to pull up the
:06:31. > :06:42.draw bridge. John Man wrote to Ed Miliband asking him to pledge:
:06:43. > :06:48.Some's speech won't go anywhere near as far, but perhaps it may offer a
:06:49. > :06:53.small crumb or two or all those campaigning on the doorstep in the
:06:54. > :06:57.weeks and months to come. Did he have anything else to say? If you
:06:58. > :07:01.read the speech carefully, there are interesting concessions. He says in
:07:02. > :07:05.it Britain needs to work more effectively to change within the EU.
:07:06. > :07:09.He lists things that he's going to go out and seek change on. He says a
:07:10. > :07:12.longer time between new countries joining and their citizens being
:07:13. > :07:17.eligible for rights. He wants to make it easier to deport criminals
:07:18. > :07:20.from overseas, a longer wait before doling out Child Tax Credit when
:07:21. > :07:24.children live abroad. If you are listening to this, you are hearing
:07:25. > :07:27.the voice and echo of David Cameron. This is classic, isn't it, Tory
:07:28. > :07:33.territory that Ed Miliband is moving on to. The key difference being that
:07:34. > :07:37.Ed Miliband has committed himself to only offering this referendum if
:07:38. > :07:42.those powers are already being transferred. But this will also, I
:07:43. > :07:46.suggest, go some way towards reassuring the business community
:07:47. > :07:50.who has felt quite forgotten of late, quite isolated, all the talk
:07:51. > :07:54.of energy freezes, or banks being split up o the bankers' bonuses
:07:55. > :07:59.leaving businesses in a slightly shaky position. Does he offer any
:08:00. > :08:03.apology for giving away all those powers in the Lisbon Treaty? That
:08:04. > :08:08.wasn't him directly I guess, but maybe one for him next time he's
:08:09. > :08:13.here. To discuss Ed Miliband's proposal we have John Mann, who has
:08:14. > :08:18.written to Mr Ed Miliband today to call for an in-out referendum in the
:08:19. > :08:24.first 12 months of the next parliament, and Mr Rudd head of
:08:25. > :08:28.Business for New Europe. Do you think this promise meets what you
:08:29. > :08:31.believe to be the public mood? Not fully, but it is certainly a
:08:32. > :08:34.significant move in the right direction. The public mood isn't
:08:35. > :08:39.specifically about a referendum, the public mood is about sorting out
:08:40. > :08:43.what they see as the injustice and inequity within the European Union.
:08:44. > :08:48.Until that is addressed this issue is going to resonate very, very
:08:49. > :08:53.strongly. This is classic Ed Miliband isn't t it's clear as mud
:08:54. > :08:58.in many ways? I think it's pretty clear, if there is a transfer of
:08:59. > :09:02.powers to Brussels, there has to be an in-out referendum. I think the
:09:03. > :09:05.likelihood of that transfer is extremely unlikely because you have
:09:06. > :09:08.seen Germany, you have seen France, you have seen the positions of these
:09:09. > :09:15.major European powers, there isn't going to be treaty change, not for
:09:16. > :09:19.the foreseeable future. So you think it is showing the public mood? I
:09:20. > :09:22.think it is very unlikely there will be a major treaty change, but I
:09:23. > :09:27.think it is right if there was one that transferred powers to Brussels,
:09:28. > :09:31.there should be a referendum on in-out, that is fair, I don't see
:09:32. > :09:35.why you pick a particular date and time to pacify euro-sceptics who are
:09:36. > :09:38.never going to be pass satisfied because they want to leave the
:09:39. > :09:45.European Union. There would be an advantage to picking a deadline
:09:46. > :09:50.wouldn't there? The advantage is that as leverage in negotiating,
:09:51. > :09:52.David Cameron wants more flexible labour markets, that is not what the
:09:53. > :09:58.public is telling me they want. They want the opposite. This is about
:09:59. > :10:02.jobs and about some powers coming back into this country. And that
:10:03. > :10:06.word that people don't like talking about in Westminster, "immigration".
:10:07. > :10:09.What do you feel will be the reaction among the people that you
:10:10. > :10:12.have been speaking to in the light of Labour's experience in
:10:13. > :10:17.Government? People want to see, and what they are saying, Labour voters,
:10:18. > :10:24.not least, want to see their voice being heard. They want to be trusted
:10:25. > :10:26.and what they want is a significant reduction in the powers of the
:10:27. > :10:30.European Union, particularly over jobs. If that doesn't happen then
:10:31. > :10:35.people are not going to be happy. That is not what is being promised
:10:36. > :10:38.is it? Not yet, but it is in the right direction. You have got
:10:39. > :10:44.Cameron going one way, saying he wants more flexible labour markets,
:10:45. > :10:48.agency workers is a good example of where Ed Miliband, I think, will go
:10:49. > :10:52.next and saying we need stronger laws that in essence outmanoeuvre
:10:53. > :10:59.the European Union and their flexible labour market mentality on
:11:00. > :11:03.agencies. If that happens that would be hugely popular in the country.
:11:04. > :11:06.You are rather chuffed aren't you? I think it is rather good move because
:11:07. > :11:09.I would like to see Britain remain in the European Union. I don't want
:11:10. > :11:12.to see an arbitary date in terms of referendum. It is right to have one
:11:13. > :11:16.when there is a transfer of powers. Despite the fact as Emily has
:11:17. > :11:21.pointed out, he's talking much of Cameron's language here? Well he is
:11:22. > :11:26.a little bit on immigration, and I don't particularly necessary agree
:11:27. > :11:30.with all of that. I think allowing the accession aid in 2004 was a good
:11:31. > :11:33.move. Other things like not allowing child benefit for people who work
:11:34. > :11:36.here from the European Union is perfectly acceptable. There are
:11:37. > :11:39.sensible reforms, we do need Europe reformed and there is a real
:11:40. > :11:43.possibility in getting more reform from Europe. But perhaps where I
:11:44. > :11:47.would disagree with John is I think you are much more likely to get that
:11:48. > :11:50.reform if you are seen to be somebody who wants to remain in
:11:51. > :11:56.Europe and who doesn't threaten to leave at arbitary dates. What does
:11:57. > :12:00.it do to the position of UKIP in the elections do you think? Well, you
:12:01. > :12:03.know, UKIP are going to continue to argue that we should leave and we
:12:04. > :12:08.need to leave immediately. Obviously the Conservatives will say we're the
:12:09. > :12:14.only party which you can rely on to have a referendum early on in this.
:12:15. > :12:19.And in some ways we have seen it with the Immigration Minister and
:12:20. > :12:23.Conservatives, they will try to out-UKIP, UKIP on some issues.
:12:24. > :12:27.Ultimately that is dangerous because if you are worried about immigration
:12:28. > :12:31.and decide you want to stop it at all costs you will vote for UKIP not
:12:32. > :12:36.a pale imitation. That gives you a problem doesn't it? UKIP, if they
:12:37. > :12:39.weren't a bunch of fruitcakes then UKIP would be getting somewhere.
:12:40. > :12:44.Let's hold the abuse aside for a second? That is how the public sees
:12:45. > :12:47.them, not just me, and therefore UKIP, they will do better at the
:12:48. > :12:52.European elections, there are other elections. But this isn't about
:12:53. > :12:56.UKIP. They are still voting for these fruitcakes. If you want a
:12:57. > :13:01.referendum on Europe the only people to guarantee it are UKIP and Tories?
:13:02. > :13:05.The agenda in Europe will change when you get extreme parties in the
:13:06. > :13:08.right and left anti-European Union, in other countries, particularly the
:13:09. > :13:11.south and Eastern Europe, you get them elected to the European
:13:12. > :13:15.Parliament, that is the earthquake that is coming. What Ed Miliband
:13:16. > :13:21.needs to do when that happens is take the big issues, such as agency
:13:22. > :13:24.workers, such as jobs, and ensure that the Labour Party is speaking
:13:25. > :13:29.for its own voters on that. If it does, it will be the right position
:13:30. > :13:33.in British politics. We will get more jobs if we remain in the
:13:34. > :13:38.European Union. We extend the European market and push hard on
:13:39. > :13:41.trade agreements and make sure it is the capital city of Europe. Those
:13:42. > :13:45.are the areas we will ensure greater job production than we will by
:13:46. > :13:48.threatening to leave or fighting on single issues that could actually
:13:49. > :13:52.jeopardise our membership. Thank you very much both of you. It is a
:13:53. > :13:55.little over a month since a man from Sussex became the first British
:13:56. > :14:00.person to die carrying out a suicide bomb attack in the Syrian Civil War.
:14:01. > :14:05.He left behind three children. There are said to be hundreds of British
:14:06. > :14:08.men who may have become involved in that war about whom the security
:14:09. > :14:12.forces say they have significant worries. It boils down to this,
:14:13. > :14:17.could someone who travels to fight in a foreign war return to Britain
:14:18. > :14:26.so hardened that they are willing to use violence here to advance their
:14:27. > :14:29.beliefs? We report. This is Britain's first suicide
:14:30. > :14:40.bomber killed in Syria. Filmed moments before he blew himself up,
:14:41. > :14:45.at the gates of Aleppo Prison. Abdul Majid is the tenth man from Britain
:14:46. > :14:50.known to have died on the Mirrian battlefield. He has been portrayed
:14:51. > :14:55.as dang us fanatic, adding to the authorities' fears that this will
:14:56. > :14:59.bring bloodshed back home. They may be radicalised and brutalised by
:15:00. > :15:04.some of the experiences they see. Syria has become the Jihadi
:15:05. > :15:10.destination of choice. But to his family, friends and some Muslims
:15:11. > :15:16.Majid was something else entirely. My brother was not a terrorist. My
:15:17. > :15:22.brother was a hero. He made the ultimate sacrifice to save the
:15:23. > :15:26.Syrian people. We have spoken exclusively to his closest friend,
:15:27. > :15:33.who travelled to Syria with him. I don't see how he is in any way
:15:34. > :15:42.promoting the idea of returning back to any western country to carry out
:15:43. > :15:45.acts of terrorism. His journey started in Crawley West Sussex, but
:15:46. > :15:51.ended thousands of miles from home. When he got behind the wheel of this
:15:52. > :16:03.struck bomb. This is the story of the man from Martyres Avenue. He's
:16:04. > :16:07.in the camp and putting on a show for the children here. It was days
:16:08. > :16:11.before his family realised he had been involved. He had gone to Syria
:16:12. > :16:21.six months earlier with a nationwide aid convoy. My heart sank, my mum
:16:22. > :16:26.and dad's hearts san We were extremely grief-striken when we saw
:16:27. > :16:31.the moment, extremely shocked and deeply, deeply worried. Majeed was a
:16:32. > :16:38.married man with three children. He had a steady job with the Highways
:16:39. > :16:44.Agency. His brother said Majeed went to Syria to make a difference. He
:16:45. > :16:50.saw there was people being oppressed, people with no food,
:16:51. > :16:55.people being torn apart from their families, people being put in prison
:16:56. > :17:01.and he just thought this was a great injustice. His friend went with him,
:17:02. > :17:11.he says that they maintained refugee camps along the Turkey-Syria border,
:17:12. > :17:16.Mr Mahmood returned in January but his friend stayed on. We put down
:17:17. > :17:21.panels for channels for generators to be set up. Cables to be tied to
:17:22. > :17:27.poles. These kinds of ideas to improve the situation in a
:17:28. > :17:35.particular campsite. Did he ever fight? No, no. Did he ever talk
:17:36. > :17:41.about fighting? No. Very, very busy with the work he was doing. There
:17:42. > :17:46.was periods of time when we were apart. Wren When we were together it
:17:47. > :17:51.was the might of the people, how we were assisting and helping them.
:17:52. > :17:57.Majeed's family and friends believe he launched an attack to free
:17:58. > :18:02.prisoners after reports of appalling treatment in the jails. His friend
:18:03. > :18:07.said he had been deeply affected by the war. You would see the glaze in
:18:08. > :18:16.his eye, and tears, these stories are shocking what these people have
:18:17. > :18:22.gone through. My's Majeed's attack was carried out by one of several
:18:23. > :18:27.affiliated to Al-Qaeda groups. The BBC has been unable to verify
:18:28. > :18:35.claims. Afterwards there were reports that Majeed, who lived on
:18:36. > :18:45.the improbably named In the at thes Avenue. As man he had attended talks
:18:46. > :18:52.of a group. It is claimed the leader drove him to regular meetings in the
:18:53. > :18:56.town. Some of the men were convicted in Operation Crevice, a massive
:18:57. > :19:04.operation that thwarted plots to blow up targets in Britain. Majeed
:19:05. > :19:12.was not implicated and he had left Al Majhagaroon. He had been in touch
:19:13. > :19:23.with them and they didn't marry with his beliefs. He stayed with them for
:19:24. > :19:28.a short time and moved on. This man's brother was jailed for his
:19:29. > :19:40.part in a plot but neither he nor his brother were Jihadists he says.
:19:41. > :19:44.While Majeed's final days are unclear, other men are clear about
:19:45. > :19:47.their intentions. Such talk has triggered alarm back home, police
:19:48. > :19:50.have arrested more than 30 people this year in investigations related
:19:51. > :20:01.to Syria, including four people today. The former Quan tan Mo bay
:20:02. > :20:07.detainee Begg is one of those arrested. There is mounting concern
:20:08. > :20:15.in Whitehall, one official says Syria is the biggest security
:20:16. > :20:20.challenge since 9/11. MI5 is looking at hundreds of men in Syria. They
:20:21. > :20:24.could return battle hardened prepared to bring terrorism to the
:20:25. > :20:29.streets of Britain. I understand the desire for people to want to help,
:20:30. > :20:33.to give humanitarian assistance. But that puts them at risk going out
:20:34. > :20:36.there, and they may come into contact with extremist
:20:37. > :20:44.organisations, sometimes linked to Al-Qaeda, the al-Nusra front, the so
:20:45. > :20:48.called Islamic state of Iraq and Levant, how they might be
:20:49. > :20:53.radicalised or brutalised by some of the experiences they see. At
:20:54. > :20:57.Crawley's main mosque some worshippers are sceptical that
:20:58. > :21:01.anyone fighting to bring down Syria's corrupt regime could be a
:21:02. > :21:04.threat to Britain. As far as I'm aware no innocents were targeted.
:21:05. > :21:10.You could question what he did, but I wouldn't say he's terrorising
:21:11. > :21:16.anyone the people say it is an act of terrorism, who is he terrorising.
:21:17. > :21:21.Mosque leaders say Muslims feel an obligation to help the Syrians, they
:21:22. > :21:29.now fear if they do they will be criminalised. It is very confusing,
:21:30. > :21:33.the message is not clear. Every day new messages come up and they came
:21:34. > :21:37.too late. Ministers deny any confusion, for them it is quite
:21:38. > :21:44.clear. People should not travel to Syria. Because of the risk that it
:21:45. > :21:49.poses to them and how actually it makes matters worse, it does not
:21:50. > :21:53.assist in terms of the Syrian people who have said clearly they don't
:21:54. > :21:58.want foreign fighters but humanitarian aid. Black in Crawley,
:21:59. > :22:03.Majeed's family are coming to terms with his death. For them he died
:22:04. > :22:12.trying to do good, no matter how shocking it would appear to others.
:22:13. > :22:21.A lot of people would struggle to understand how driving a truck full
:22:22. > :22:25.of explosives into a target would help anybody If I can put it like
:22:26. > :22:29.this, and if my brother had been a soldier and the people in that
:22:30. > :22:39.prison. And the act of bravery he did, I know he would have been
:22:40. > :22:42.awarded the posthumous Victoria Cross. My brother was not a
:22:43. > :22:50.terrorist but a hero, he was not a threat to the British public and
:22:51. > :22:56.never has been a threat to the British public. They can feed you,
:22:57. > :23:01.lend you money and bury you, but the Co-Op apparently cannot run itself
:23:02. > :23:06.efficiently. The man appointed to sort it all out resigned saying more
:23:07. > :23:13.or less it was ungovernable. The poor old Co-Op, once a name for
:23:14. > :23:19.non-conformist probity, had a leader in a drugs sting, another leader
:23:20. > :23:26.walk out and apparent hedge funds with expensive suits. The latest man
:23:27. > :23:33.to go, jumped or pushed. What he was trying to do was clear out the
:23:34. > :23:36.maze-like structure of the Co-Op, as well as slim it down. He was going
:23:37. > :23:41.to take power from members, they have a strange, unusual democracy in
:23:42. > :23:44.the business, he made enemies trying to do that, not least that people
:23:45. > :23:48.didn't like the fact he was going to be paid ?3 million to do so. I'm
:23:49. > :23:53.told a small but disruptive group on the board essentially made it
:23:54. > :23:56.impossible for him to stay. This afternoon he walked, having
:23:57. > :23:58.threatened to resign. What is interesting is there are seven
:23:59. > :24:04.different inquiries going on into what went wrong at the Co-Op, seven
:24:05. > :24:08.of them. And I'm told that for some people his departure is seen as
:24:09. > :24:12.having been a semi-deliberate move to cover the back sides of those who
:24:13. > :24:17.may be discredits when what really went wrong goes public. Let's not be
:24:18. > :24:22.inhibited by the seven inquiries, what has gone wrong at the Co-Op? A
:24:23. > :24:27.group founded on 19th century ethics of graft, saving and looking after
:24:28. > :24:30.your neighbours really got a bit greedy. In the last ten years they
:24:31. > :24:34.started buying up lots of businesses, most notably taking on
:24:35. > :24:39.the Britannia, with lots of bad debt. You ended up with a business
:24:40. > :24:43.built around a democratic committee structure trying to run a sprawling
:24:44. > :24:46.group owing lots of money to lots of people. I think there was a culture
:24:47. > :24:51.clash and they couldn't cope with the business. They do now have a
:24:52. > :24:55.financial plan to shore up the business, but there are still lots
:24:56. > :24:59.of whispers in the city that they could end up on the brink again. We
:25:00. > :25:05.expect them toy a nouns ?2 billion worth of losses in the next couple
:25:06. > :25:09.of weeks. Their group's revenue last year was only -- to announce a ?2
:25:10. > :25:13.billion worth of losses in the next couple of weeks, they can't really
:25:14. > :25:17.withstand more losses stemming the flow. The death of one of the best
:25:18. > :25:24.known trade union leaders in Britain was announced today, last month Bob
:25:25. > :25:27.Crow was vilified for taking a holiday in Brazil just before a
:25:28. > :25:35.planned strike on the London Underground. Today even his enemies
:25:36. > :25:39.were naming him a man of Prince penal and determination. The respect
:25:40. > :25:43.for the dead is as old as the hills, but today there seemed to be
:25:44. > :25:49.something else going o Joining Paul Merton tonight is the transport
:25:50. > :25:54.leader who boasts he uses public transport every day, not if some
:25:55. > :26:01.idiot calls a strike, please welcome Bob Crow. He may not have led the
:26:02. > :26:05.biggest of trade unions but he had a name known the envy of some party
:26:06. > :26:10.leaders. He was painted as a Boeing Yeoman and he loved it. We have to
:26:11. > :26:18.stop now, because Bob has negotiated a ten-minute tea break! He He wasn't
:26:19. > :26:23.a man of half measures or compromise, not what you would call
:26:24. > :26:27.a mincer of words. I feel absolutely betrayed by this new Labour
:26:28. > :26:32.Government, for not renationalising this rail network and stealing ahead
:26:33. > :26:36.with the privatisation of London Underground. They called him
:26:37. > :26:42.variously a dinosaur, a firebrand, a communist, no insult to him, frozen
:26:43. > :26:49.commuters on strike bound railway platforms called him much worse. Yet
:26:50. > :26:52.his unexpected death drew near universal acknowledgement he did his
:26:53. > :26:57.job well. I didn't always agree with what he had to say. I will say this,
:26:58. > :27:02.together with other union members Bob Crow unquestionably helped to
:27:03. > :27:07.drive forward huge progress on London Underground and he leaves a
:27:08. > :27:15.massive legacy behind. Other unions might wither, but during his dozen
:27:16. > :27:18.years at the RMT, membership significantly increased. It wasn't
:27:19. > :27:22.that he was unafraid, it was that he could start a fight in an empty
:27:23. > :27:27.room. This was mere days before the last tube strike. Sit round a table,
:27:28. > :27:32.explain about the new technology. I'm sorry Bob, there is a table to
:27:33. > :27:38.be sat round by you and your team. But we can't do it with a gun to our
:27:39. > :27:42.head. Yet for all his reputation as an old-style union prize fighter,
:27:43. > :27:46.Bob Crow was media savvy and politically quite acute. All you
:27:47. > :27:49.normally need to do in length land to become a national treasure sure
:27:50. > :27:57.is to live long enough, he didn't get the chance. But in his death he
:27:58. > :28:01.seems to have become one any way. Here to discuss Bob Crow's legacy is
:28:02. > :28:11.the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingston, and with him the Times
:28:12. > :28:17.columnist and Danny Finkelstein, Lord Fink
:28:18. > :28:27.The strategy We admire people on the public stage
:28:28. > :28:32.who stand up for the things they believe in and people are saying
:28:33. > :28:36.nice things about him. Everyone has their own views, I didn't agree with
:28:37. > :28:39.his politics and thought he was wrong-headed. On the day he dies
:28:40. > :28:42.naturally people are respecting him, that is the good thing about this
:28:43. > :28:46.country, people are decent to each other in these sorts of situations.
:28:47. > :28:50.Part of it is being compute off in your prime, isn't it? It is, if he
:28:51. > :28:54.hadn't died today he would be vilified for the stance he took. But
:28:55. > :28:59.the big thing about Bob Crow is I can't think of any other group of
:29:00. > :29:03.people in working-class jobs whose pay and conditions and pension
:29:04. > :29:09.haven't been degraded over recent years. He fought to keep them with a
:29:10. > :29:13.decent standard of living. He succeeded, and I think it is a
:29:14. > :29:16.strong lesson to other trade unionists, it is no good pandering
:29:17. > :29:19.to the establishment or trying to suck up, or hoping you will get a
:29:20. > :29:24.deal. At the end of the day you have to stand up and fight or your
:29:25. > :29:35.members' living standard will be degraded. Are you nodding there? I
:29:36. > :29:39.thought it was He was an unusual figure. Bob Crow understood
:29:40. > :29:44.capitalism, he cornered the market in railway workers and exploited the
:29:45. > :29:49.monopoly he created. When he argued towards the end of his life he was
:29:50. > :29:51.worth the money he was paid, he was quite right. But that was at
:29:52. > :29:54.variance with the principle of equity. The money he was getting for
:29:55. > :29:58.railway workers had to come from other workers travelling on the
:29:59. > :30:03.tube. So that tension actually was one of the things that bedevilled
:30:04. > :30:08.the Labour Party in the 1960s and 1970s, as they began to realise that
:30:09. > :30:11.trade unionism pushing for wages for less well off people and vulnerable
:30:12. > :30:15.people, a very good thing, is at variance of the broader principle of
:30:16. > :30:20.equity, because it involves fighting for a sectional interest. Crow was a
:30:21. > :30:24.really interesting figure and he will be analysed for a long time,
:30:25. > :30:27.partly when people die shocking deaths and they are young that leads
:30:28. > :30:31.sort of people to assess their careers when they are in mid-flight
:30:32. > :30:36.I suppose that will happen. What did you make of the fact that Boris
:30:37. > :30:41.Johnson sought out the first television camera he could in order
:30:42. > :30:45.to say what a wonderful chap Bob Crow was? Having basically
:30:46. > :30:50.disparaged him for several years and refusing to meet him. Bob Crow was
:30:51. > :30:55.one of my supporters when I was running as an independent against
:30:56. > :31:00.the new Labour machine. We had a joint campaign against Gordon
:31:01. > :31:03.Brown's attempt to partially privatise the underground. Once I
:31:04. > :31:07.had become the mayor and I had to negotiate we had rows and
:31:08. > :31:11.disagreements. What I found good about Bob is he would come into the
:31:12. > :31:15.room and tell you exactly what he wanted, there was never any
:31:16. > :31:18.dissellbling, and dishonesty. We had some terrible rows but at the end of
:31:19. > :31:24.the day the number of days lost under strikes in the six years I was
:31:25. > :31:29.running the underground were cut by 98%, we did a fair deal. Stop
:31:30. > :31:34.blowing your own trumpet, let's deal with the terrain of why people rush
:31:35. > :31:39.out to be nice? It may be an element of hypocrisy, but it is benign. A
:31:40. > :31:45.desire, you know, he has got a young family, he has died at a tragically
:31:46. > :31:49.young age. I think of course an element of triumph for him because
:31:50. > :31:53.he lived his life absolutely to full and all the way to the end. That is
:31:54. > :31:58.the sort of triumph and strategy I'm sure he wouldn't want to be seen as
:31:59. > :32:02.a tragic figure. It's a benign hypocrisy, I wouldn't want to live
:32:03. > :32:06.in a society, I think Nigel Farage included an attack on the EU on his
:32:07. > :32:10.tweet on Bob Crow. You know you don't want to be the first person to
:32:11. > :32:15.make a minor political point when someone has just died. When Mrs
:32:16. > :32:19.Thatcher died I was fairly moderate in my criticism, I stand remind
:32:20. > :32:22.people every time she was re-elected the suicide rate doubled in the
:32:23. > :32:26.following month. Because they have got relatives and family around. It
:32:27. > :32:33.was classy to wait until now, I thought. I did write it up about 20
:32:34. > :32:40.years ago. The other thing about him he was personally very charming
:32:41. > :32:43.wasn't he. He had a charisma and a reasonableness? I think lots of
:32:44. > :32:48.people have said, that I didn't meet him for very long, you have to
:32:49. > :32:51.preach to that. To me speaking as a middle-class Jew from Pinner, he was
:32:52. > :32:55.quite aggressive, I suspect that was part of how he got what he wanted
:32:56. > :32:59.from people. I found him personally sort of bristling with a bit of
:33:00. > :33:03.menace. But I can imagine he was charming. You can't get to the top
:33:04. > :33:08.of a union like that and make the kind of strong appeal, he was in
:33:09. > :33:12.some tough fights. I do have to say I didn't think they were always
:33:13. > :33:16.well-picked fights and they were in favour of a sectional interest on
:33:17. > :33:19.behalf of which he did very well. But I, I would say this, and he
:33:20. > :33:24.would expect me to say this I think that was at the expense of a broader
:33:25. > :33:30.interest. What is so striking about Bob Crow, there are so few
:33:31. > :33:34.working-class people still in leading positions in Britain. Years
:33:35. > :33:38.ago in parliament and business there were. We have had a middle-class,
:33:39. > :33:42.everyone has to be a graduate and all that, the good thing about Bob
:33:43. > :33:46.Crow, having got that position he carried on living his life as he had
:33:47. > :33:52.before. He didn't leave his council flat to buy a house in Hampstead or
:33:53. > :33:55.have a chauffeur-driven car and use transport, he was confident and
:33:56. > :34:01.happy in his working-class culture. We have seen the working-class
:34:02. > :34:07.culture being demonised, it is all Benefits Street, and the respect
:34:08. > :34:09.that post-war generation of politicians had for the
:34:10. > :34:12.working-class because they had fought with them in the Second World
:34:13. > :34:17.War and they saw their courage, that has been striped out of society.
:34:18. > :34:21.There is lots of conservatism to admire in someone who has an
:34:22. > :34:24.appreciation of their identity and see it as a position. I can't agree
:34:25. > :34:27.with him living in a council house, this is not the moment for beige
:34:28. > :34:31.argument about that. I think there was more to it than simply an
:34:32. > :34:35.identity issue. But nevertheless, his private in his identity and
:34:36. > :34:40.willingness to exemptionify was obviously part of why he will be
:34:41. > :34:46.well known and highly thought of by lots of people and controversial to
:34:47. > :34:49.lots of others. Thank you very much. The Malaysian airliner that
:34:50. > :34:52.disappeared four days ago still hasn't been found. Despite the area
:34:53. > :34:59.of the search being doubled. The plain fact is no-one has any idea
:35:00. > :35:04.where the aircraft and the 239 human beings on board are. Flying is such
:35:05. > :35:09.an intrinsic part of modern life, many of us prefer to ignore that
:35:10. > :35:14.nagging anxiety. How do I know that this thing I'm sitting inside won't
:35:15. > :35:17.just fall out of the sky. Simply not being controlled is troubling
:35:18. > :35:23.enough, leaving aside the possibility that you might suddenly
:35:24. > :35:26.disappear without a trace. The My guest is here. You are writer in
:35:27. > :35:32.residence at Heathrow weren't you? I spent a good month at Heathrow. Long
:35:33. > :35:36.enough I would have said! Have you any idea as to why this is so
:35:37. > :35:41.troubling, this idea of a plane and all its passengers disappearing? I
:35:42. > :35:44.think we are recalibrating risk. We assume, largely because of
:35:45. > :35:47.smartphones, that wherever we go we are being watched by satellite in
:35:48. > :35:51.the sky. That is not true. We are being flattered by our mobile
:35:52. > :35:55.technology. The earth remains vast, there are lots of mysteries, and
:35:56. > :35:58.what happens to this plane is what happens in lots of areas of medical
:35:59. > :36:03.science and other areas of science where there are still mysteries, not
:36:04. > :36:07.everything is answerable or under our control. It is a terribly
:36:08. > :36:11.humiliating event for human beings who like to feel they have mastered
:36:12. > :36:21.the map, they know where stuff is, this is worse than the marry sell
:36:22. > :36:26.lest, -- Marie Celeste, it is a lesson in hubris and had you malty.
:36:27. > :36:32.How much -- humility. How much is it to do with the fact of flight? There
:36:33. > :36:36.is no doubt flying remains an imaginatively extraordinary thing to
:36:37. > :36:43.do. We are earth bound creatures to take to the skies is a daunting and
:36:44. > :36:48.hubrisistic thing to do. Why do we buy all the duty-free and the
:36:49. > :36:51.rigmarole and shows on planes. It remains for humans a daunting thing.
:36:52. > :36:56.We have erased a lot of the risk, but some risk still remains. We feel
:36:57. > :37:01.some of that risk just intuitively. There is nothing more natural than
:37:02. > :37:05.the fear of flying, it is not warranted by accident statistics,
:37:06. > :37:09.but by the sheer implausibilty of being at 35,000 feet. So we feel an
:37:10. > :37:17.echo of that when we feel anxious, trapped in one of those tubes. Sheer
:37:18. > :37:20.peculiarity of a plane disappearing though, that is really weird isn't
:37:21. > :37:24.it? The news wants answers immediately. It hasn't disappeared,
:37:25. > :37:28.we just don't know the answer yet. There are lots of things to which we
:37:29. > :37:32.don't yet know the answer. Because we are so telescoped in and want
:37:33. > :37:36.answers to everything immediately. We think a couple of days is a
:37:37. > :37:41.momentous amount of time. 20, 30 years ago, when things disappeared,
:37:42. > :37:45.ships, planes, one waited, and it might be a week. It is not that
:37:46. > :37:49.long, it will show up. It hasn't disappeared, all traces can't be
:37:50. > :37:53.gone, it will be found. It will just take longer than the news cycle. It
:37:54. > :37:56.is a measure of how much we generally know. We know a lot and a
:37:57. > :38:00.lot of questions are answered for us on the hour. This one is going to
:38:01. > :38:06.take a lot long Tory resolve. That is deeply puzzling, but we need to
:38:07. > :38:14.be more modest about our capacities: It is also putting yourself in the
:38:15. > :38:18.hands of somebody else. You are up there and some people understand why
:38:19. > :38:28.a plane flies and some don't, but you are not at the controls? I found
:38:29. > :38:32.out the more you know about flying the scarier it gets. The less you
:38:33. > :38:36.know you think it is done by machines and whatever, what you
:38:37. > :38:40.realise is when you read pilots' forums it is a heavy and physical
:38:41. > :38:45.business. Landing a plane. Pilots will talk about a "difficult
:38:46. > :38:48.landing". That is scary for a passenger, what is a very difficult
:38:49. > :38:53.landing? It remains a challenging job. It is extraordinary that
:38:54. > :38:56.tonight in western Europe some 2,000 planes landed without incident at
:38:57. > :38:59.airports across the land mass. We don't give those a second thought.
:39:00. > :39:03.Very owe cruellyly something like this goes wrong. The stairs remain
:39:04. > :39:09.much riskier, the shower much more deadly than any Malaysian airliner.
:39:10. > :39:13.At the end of the day this is a giant momento, it is reminding us,
:39:14. > :39:18.life is brief, death can come suddenly, you could die of a stroke
:39:19. > :39:23.standing up in a studio, we don't expect it because we have such faith
:39:24. > :39:26.in our machines. Our machines do not guarantee us total immunity from
:39:27. > :39:30.death. It may come this evening. We need to be cautious, kind to one
:39:31. > :39:36.another while we are alive and modest about our capacities. Thank
:39:37. > :39:41.you very much, thanks. Scarcely a day goes by without one melancholy
:39:42. > :39:45.bulletin or another from Iraq, another killing or suicide bombing.
:39:46. > :39:50.But there is one corner of the country to which people are heading
:39:51. > :39:54.to get away from it all. The city of Urbil, capital of Iraqi consider
:39:55. > :39:58.disstand is famed for night life. Since it is within striking distance
:39:59. > :40:04.of the border with the Islamic Republic of Iran, it is something of
:40:05. > :40:19.a magnet for young Iranians desperate for forbidden fruit like
:40:20. > :40:20.dancing and distilled liquor. For young Iranians desperate for
:40:21. > :40:23.forbidden fruit like dancing and distilled liquor. Nothing tastes
:40:24. > :40:26.sweeter than freedom, even for a few days. Far from the eyes of the
:40:27. > :40:33.Iranian morality police, young Iranians flock to Urbil. It is a
:40:34. > :40:40.quiet corner of northern Iraq, close to the Iranian border. And there has
:40:41. > :40:47.been an explosion of shopping malles and nightclubs. This is Iraq, but
:40:48. > :40:57.not as we know it. Here there are more cranes than Minerates, more
:40:58. > :41:00.buildings than mosques. This has become the fun place in the region,
:41:01. > :41:05.especially for young Iranians who live a few hours away over the
:41:06. > :41:13.border. It is very easy for those Iranians to come here. It is not
:41:14. > :41:20.far, and they don't need a visa. When the sun goes down the young
:41:21. > :41:28.Iranians come out. Nasila, not her real name is from Tehran. She comes
:41:29. > :41:35.here frequently. The Iranians who come to Kurdistan, they drink too
:41:36. > :41:43.much, because they can find even in the desert alcohol, they show
:41:44. > :41:50.themselves with the short dress and they just think freedom is only
:41:51. > :41:56.that. This is something between me and cousins when we came to
:41:57. > :42:03.Kurdistan, I wrote "what you want might make you cry, but what you
:42:04. > :42:07.need might pass you by". She's going to one of the most exclusive
:42:08. > :42:18.nightclubs to join her Iranian friends. It is around $10 a drink.
:42:19. > :42:23.Hamid is from Iran, he's a DJ. He has been in many underground parties
:42:24. > :43:03.in Iran, but likes to come to Urbil where he can party
:43:04. > :43:09.These young Iranians are doing something that many in the west take
:43:10. > :43:15.for granted, but for them it is a big deal. A lot of people from Iran
:43:16. > :43:22.are joining us in the past year or so, more and more have been
:43:23. > :43:28.visiting. Especially in the holidays, on the national holidays.
:43:29. > :43:31.And it is not just Iranians who are flocking to Iraqi Kurdistan, with
:43:32. > :43:39.its rapid construction and liberal ethos it is attracting visitors from
:43:40. > :43:43.all over the world. But Hamed is worried his Government might prevent
:43:44. > :44:09.Iranians from coming here in the future.
:44:10. > :44:16.Hamed and Nasila represent a new generation of young Iranians, they
:44:17. > :44:36.won't accept strict Islamic rules of the clerics.
:44:37. > :44:43.Well that's just about it for tonight. Let's have a quick look at
:44:44. > :44:47.some of tomorrow morning's front pages. As expected Ed Miliband's
:44:48. > :44:51.announcement on the EU referendum which may or may not be promised is
:44:52. > :45:35.on the front page of the Financial Times.
:45:36. > :45:41.That's almost all for tonight, before we go the latest evidence
:45:42. > :45:50.that comedy is shouldering out journalism. The American spoof chat
:45:51. > :45:56.show presenter Zag Galofiniakas, won an exclusive interview with Barack
:45:57. > :46:01.Obama, it appears in the Funny or Die website. You know what I would
:46:02. > :46:06.do if I was President, Mr President. I would make same-sex divorce
:46:07. > :46:10.illegal, and then see how bad they want it? I think that's not why you
:46:11. > :46:13.are President, that is a good thing. You said if you had a son you
:46:14. > :46:16.wouldn't let him play football. What makes you think he would want to
:46:17. > :46:21.play football, what if he was a nerd like you. Do you think a woman like
:46:22. > :46:26.Michelle would marry a nerd, why don't you ask her whether she thinks
:46:27. > :46:31.I'm a nerd. Can I? No, I'm not going to let her near you. Which country
:46:32. > :46:33.were you rooting for in the winter Olympics? Seriously?
:46:34. > :46:46.Pretty cold out there in northern areas with patches of fog around, a
:46:47. > :46:50.grey start further south. I'm hopeful the cloud will get nibbled
:46:51. > :46:51.away by the sunshine. Most of us can look forward