:00:00. > :00:11.Not many politicians have followers so devoted that they take their
:00:12. > :00:20.name, to one generation the begin nights were the hard -- the Bennites
:00:21. > :00:24.were the ones that split Labour. But to others the people with the
:00:25. > :00:37.courage to stand up with the poor and powerless. Who was the real
:00:38. > :00:41.Anthony Wedgwood Benn. We're here to start a new political movement. I we
:00:42. > :00:49.talk to Denis Healey, the man who stopped his rise to power. In my
:00:50. > :00:53.view he was an artificial lefty. An artificial lefty? I think he was
:00:54. > :00:55.trying to prove he was working-class. He was very ashamed
:00:56. > :01:00.of his upper-class background really. So will he be remembered for
:01:01. > :01:06.dripping poison into his party or all that's best of British? In
:01:07. > :01:10.Crimea they prepare for the referendum on leaving Ukraine and
:01:11. > :01:18.joining Russia. But is the vote just a prelude to a greater conflict.
:01:19. > :01:24.This is battle of wills that the Russians intend to win, starting
:01:25. > :01:27.with that referendum here on Sunday. And this. Back in the old days it
:01:28. > :01:33.would take a whole lifetime to destroy the reputation of a
:01:34. > :01:39.politician or banker. But now, as we know, someone just hits send and it
:01:40. > :01:43.can happen overnight. Playwright David Hare turns his fire on the
:01:44. > :01:57.books. We talk to the man who has delighted and challenged audiences
:01:58. > :02:00.from stage left. Tony Benn, who died aged 88 believed with words
:02:01. > :02:04.parliament had tamed kings, restrained tyrants and averted
:02:05. > :02:09.revolution. Yet with his own golden tongue he entertained and infuriated
:02:10. > :02:13.in equal measure. Arguably he helped split the Labour Party in the 1980s.
:02:14. > :02:17.Although he had been on the Government payroll as a minister, he
:02:18. > :02:22.came to believe there wasn't much point in just improving the system.
:02:23. > :02:26.Instead it had to be transforeign minister all -- transformed all
:02:27. > :02:37.together. Despite his profile and popularity, achieving that kind of
:02:38. > :02:49.change alluded him. Tony Benn, not a wide-eyed trot, but a very English
:02:50. > :02:53.phenomenon. English phenomenon. There are many who fit the cliche,
:02:54. > :02:57.socialist when young, capitalist with age. Tony Benn properly bucked
:02:58. > :03:01.the trend. He was a towering figure within the Labour Party, serving as
:03:02. > :03:04.an MP for more than half a century. The British public have been
:03:05. > :03:10.awakened, not just on the mining industry, but to the whole rotten
:03:11. > :03:15.philosophy of the 1980s, that it is all about cash and you bring in a
:03:16. > :03:19.chartered accountant andest tells you what to do. It isn't about that,
:03:20. > :03:23.it is about whether our society puts people in a place of dignity and
:03:24. > :03:30.service them or whether you just hand over your money to gamblers who
:03:31. > :03:33.don't create any wealth at all. It was the appeal he had outside
:03:34. > :03:38.parliament that really captured his achievements. He came to
:03:39. > :03:42.Glastonbury, he even appeared with Ali G. Come on you are not living in
:03:43. > :03:45.the real world, you are living in a world where everybody is so bloody
:03:46. > :03:47.greedy that there is no hope of building a better society and that's
:03:48. > :04:04.why we are in a mess. Fool you! Tony Benn constantly questioned
:04:05. > :04:09.where power came from? And how it was used. Passionate and articulate,
:04:10. > :04:15.with a clipped tones and pronounced vowells even after he relinquished
:04:16. > :04:21.his title, Sir Anthony Wedgwood Ben, there was no descent into mockney to
:04:22. > :04:25.prove he was a man of the people. This is a matter that would have to
:04:26. > :04:28.be decided by Bristol. I'm a servant of the people of the Bristol. They
:04:29. > :04:31.have to decide if they wanted me. I'm a member of the Labour Party, so
:04:32. > :04:40.the Labour leaders would have to be brought into such a discussion.
:04:41. > :04:46.To the generations who came after him, he appealed as a true
:04:47. > :04:52.conviction politician. When he took to the stump, campaigning against
:04:53. > :05:00.the Iraq War, millions listened. We are here today to found a new
:05:01. > :05:06.political movement worldwide. The biggest demonstration ever in
:05:07. > :05:13.Britain, the first global demonstration and its first cause is
:05:14. > :05:17.to prevent a war against Iraq. And yet many within his own party will
:05:18. > :05:21.remember him as a truly devisive figure. He served as Secretary of
:05:22. > :05:26.State in the Wilson and Callaghan Governments, but it was after Labour
:05:27. > :05:30.was ousted in 1979 that things got bitter. Every day I'm getting more
:05:31. > :05:34.messages, and I think the reason is very clear. People want the next
:05:35. > :05:40.Labour Government to do what it says it will do. He waged a destructive
:05:41. > :05:45.battle as the champion of the left against Denis Healey, for the deputy
:05:46. > :05:58.leadership of the party. Ultimately he lost. Tony Benn, 49. 574. Denis
:05:59. > :06:01.Healey 50. 426. While his conviction was dedoubtable, his failure to
:06:02. > :06:20.compromise and his manoeuvrings were also seen as flaws.
:06:21. > :06:27.He eventually left parliament to, in his words, concentrate on politics,
:06:28. > :06:31.he was a prolific diary writer and deeply thoughtful man. Happy to
:06:32. > :06:36.admit he had the kind of self-doubt that often led him to question his
:06:37. > :06:39.decisions. I think anyone has to be self-critical if they are going to
:06:40. > :06:44.make sense of their own experience and opinions. And I often ask myself
:06:45. > :06:53.am I right about this, am I wrong about it?
:06:54. > :06:59.What of the Labour of then, and the Labour of now? On a personal level
:07:00. > :07:02.he knew Ed Miliband has family friend, today the leader of the
:07:03. > :07:07.opposition described him as a champion of the powerless. The thing
:07:08. > :07:10.about Tony Benn is you always knew what he stood for and who he stood
:07:11. > :07:15.up for. And I think that's why he was admired right across the
:07:16. > :07:20.political spectrum. Today those who felt his to be the "wrong sort of
:07:21. > :07:24.Labour" may stay silent. But there are some on the left who see Tony
:07:25. > :07:29.Benn not just as iconic, but as prophetic. His politics were not
:07:30. > :07:38.always easy to swallow. But they were consistent, provocative and to
:07:39. > :07:41.many inspiring. As Emily suggested, Tony Benn's most devisive battle was
:07:42. > :07:45.perhaps with the former Labour Chancellor, Lord Healey, now 96
:07:46. > :07:49.years old. Who he fought for the deputy leadership of the party, and
:07:50. > :07:53.lost, just. This afternoon I went to talk to the man who was Tony Benn's
:07:54. > :07:58.enemy, but later in life became his friend. I asked him what Benn was
:07:59. > :08:09.like when the pair were first elected to parliament in 1952. Well
:08:10. > :08:14.he was, me my view, an artificial lefty at that time. An artificial
:08:15. > :08:18.lefty? I think he was trying to prove he was working-class. He was
:08:19. > :08:23.very ashamed of his upper-class background really. At the worst
:08:24. > :08:28.time, when the party was full of splits, when he stood against you,
:08:29. > :08:34.how much bitterness was there? There was quite a lot of bitterness,
:08:35. > :08:39.really. Because I felt he was doing the party enormous damage, and I'm
:08:40. > :08:47.sure he was at that time by the way he behaved, not just his views. But
:08:48. > :08:53.as I say all that disappeared in later life. What do you mean by the
:08:54. > :09:01.way he behaved? Well, that he would be extremely route and offensive in
:09:02. > :09:07.what he said. Rude to you, offensive to you? Yes, a little bit, but then
:09:08. > :09:13.I was offensive to him. Was he toxic to the Labour Party? It was damaging
:09:14. > :09:19.to us, without question. But what was most damaging was the divisions,
:09:20. > :09:25.caused by the views. Because most people knew nothing about the issues
:09:26. > :09:30.we disagreed on. But they disagreed, that they disliked immensely hearing
:09:31. > :09:39.people in the same party being rude to one another. Was that his fault?
:09:40. > :09:44.I think it was, mainly, yes. How did he go from being such a toxic figure
:09:45. > :09:53.in the Labour Party to becoming a national treasure sure, almost a
:09:54. > :10:06.grandfather of British politics? I think his views softened enormously.
:10:07. > :10:13.And you know, he was at one time leading a toxic left-wing and I mean
:10:14. > :10:18.people like Michael Foot loathed him, because he did the party so
:10:19. > :10:24.much damage by the way he talked. Although Michael shared many of his
:10:25. > :10:37.views. What was he like? Tony at the end, well he was still you know a
:10:38. > :10:41.man with a golden tongue, but he was totally unaggressive. Where as when
:10:42. > :10:45.he was young he was very aggressive, and indeed. And I think that was
:10:46. > :10:54.partly his need to prove that he had broken with his family background. I
:10:55. > :10:58.think he really wanted to prove he was left-wing. He couldn't prove he
:10:59. > :11:04.was working-class because he wasn't, it was the opposite. Did you like
:11:05. > :11:07.him? I disliked him intensely when we disagreed with one another, but
:11:08. > :11:12.we had very good relations in our late life. Tony Benn also famously
:11:13. > :11:16.said that broadcasting is too important to be left to the
:11:17. > :11:21.broadcasters. With me are the Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley
:11:22. > :11:31.Williams, Labour MP Diane abbot, and Tim Montgomerie, comment editor at
:11:32. > :11:35.the Times. Diane abbot, it is rare a politician captures the imagination
:11:36. > :11:40.of so many people. Do you accept what was said there that Tony Benn
:11:41. > :11:43.did damage to the Labour Party? It wasn't his views softened, it was
:11:44. > :11:47.positions he took up in relation to Ireland, issues like gay marriage,
:11:48. > :11:54.race, women, they became very mainstream. People forget part of
:11:55. > :12:00.Tony Benn's victory, in a lot of the things he espoused early on in his
:12:01. > :12:03.career became mainstream. The damage you could argue was it the SDP
:12:04. > :12:07.walking out to cause the damage or people talking about party democracy
:12:08. > :12:10.causing damage. It was a difficult period. But he was an inspirational
:12:11. > :12:16.gig that brought people into politics. In the end people like
:12:17. > :12:20.people who they think really believe what they are saying. I came this
:12:21. > :12:25.evening from a birthday party, with a lot of black and minority ethnic
:12:26. > :12:28.people there, they wanted me to say tonight that people need to remember
:12:29. > :12:33.how much black people loved Tony Benn, you guys are in the political
:12:34. > :12:36.bubble. For the people outside the political bubble, Tony Benn spoke
:12:37. > :12:40.for people who didn't have a voice. It is rare to have that, and we will
:12:41. > :12:43.come back to that. Shirley Williams you were one of the people who
:12:44. > :12:46.walked out and you started as young MPs together. Was it his views that
:12:47. > :12:51.led you and your colleagues to the exit door, how instrumental was he
:12:52. > :12:56.in that? Not really. I think Tony in the 60s was a mainstream politician,
:12:57. > :13:02.and a very good minister for technology. I think frankly in the
:13:03. > :13:07.70s he had subscribed to a great extent to a pretty far left with
:13:08. > :13:11.militant tendency. No he didn't. He was never a member of the militant
:13:12. > :13:14.left. I know becau I was on the national executive. I was there. I
:13:15. > :13:20.was on the national executive week after week after week and you were
:13:21. > :13:24.not. He was not a member of the militant tendency. I was on the NEC
:13:25. > :13:29.Not for the whole period. Here is an example of how devisive he could be.
:13:30. > :13:33.He was never a member of the Militant Tendency. When I started I
:13:34. > :13:36.said he subscribed to some of the views. You can check the record I
:13:37. > :13:39.did not say he was a member. I did say and I mean it that he was
:13:40. > :13:49.supportive of them. And when issues came up at the national executive,
:13:50. > :13:53.like the appointment of the National Youth Officer. , the best national
:13:54. > :13:56.agent the Labour Party had, that was laid on the table, never opened
:13:57. > :14:00.again and that was partly because Tony was chairman of the Home Policy
:14:01. > :14:06.Committee and said we are not going to open it. He was instrumental in
:14:07. > :14:09.making things happen. I think he was pretty instrumental. He was
:14:10. > :14:12.outrageous in the way he treated Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan,
:14:13. > :14:16.they were not traitors to the Labour Government, which I think Tony
:14:17. > :14:20.implied. They were men who worked very hard, especially Jim Callaghan.
:14:21. > :14:24.I thought he was very damaging to the Labour movement at that point. I
:14:25. > :14:29.don't think it was through the 60s, but during the 70s it is hard to
:14:30. > :14:33.argue anything else. The Sun called him the most dangerous man in
:14:34. > :14:37.Britain, do you think Conservative voters or people leaning that way
:14:38. > :14:40.really thought that. Did they really believe that? While sections of the
:14:41. > :14:44.left had some internal conversations? Absolutely, by the
:14:45. > :14:49.end of the 1970s, the Government I by which Tony Benn was a leading
:14:50. > :14:52.part, people felt was ungovernable to many people. And the split
:14:53. > :14:56.between Diane and Shirley, that split on the left of British
:14:57. > :15:01.politics was the reason or one of the key reasons why Margaret
:15:02. > :15:04.Thatcher was able to win those decisive majorities she did. The
:15:05. > :15:09.split on the left with the decisive fact in British politics for a long
:15:10. > :15:14.period. It was the unreasonableness of Tony Benn, testified to there by
:15:15. > :15:17.Denis Healey, that created that division. But do you think people
:15:18. > :15:24.really thought he was dangerous, some kind of bogeyman, that is
:15:25. > :15:29.hyperbole, headline writing? I don't think so, if you look at some of the
:15:30. > :15:33.positions he took, particularly on nuclear disarment. That was a period
:15:34. > :15:37.when many people genuinely feared what the Soviet Union represented.
:15:38. > :15:40.That was a time in the world when people were very frightened. His
:15:41. > :15:45.support for giving up our nuclear weapons, leaving Britain potentially
:15:46. > :15:47.defenceless against what Ronald Regan correctly described as the
:15:48. > :15:53.evil empire, people worried about that. People weren't frightened of
:15:54. > :15:59.him. When he went out in the 80s and 90s and spoke to people, the same
:16:00. > :16:04.blue rinse brigade, and he was extremely popular and his ideas were
:16:05. > :16:08.popular, to call him a member of the militant tendency is bizarre. I did
:16:09. > :16:17.not say that, I said he subscribed to some of its ideas. In terms of
:16:18. > :16:20.that do you accept there was a nervousness amongst many voters
:16:21. > :16:24.about the positions he took. You said his views were mainstream, but
:16:25. > :16:34.for many people they weren't? His views on thing things like on the
:16:35. > :16:39.Iraq War. Tabloid newspapers said he was clinically insane, the terrible
:16:40. > :16:44.things they used to write. No wonder Tory ladies were frightened of him.
:16:45. > :16:47.What he did have, no doubt Shirley Williams, if you look at the green
:16:48. > :16:50.benches he was a politician people believed, and they believed that he
:16:51. > :16:54.believed what he was saying? That is perfectly true. I accept that, and I
:16:55. > :16:57.think that tony said what he believed, and fought it very
:16:58. > :17:02.strongly. I think the implication he's unique in that annoys me.
:17:03. > :17:06.Somebody like Michael Foot, who was very different in his attitude
:17:07. > :17:09.towards, particularly parliament, which he vastly admired, much more
:17:10. > :17:14.than Tony Benn was not treated. Do we have that now? No, a lot of the
:17:15. > :17:17.more colourful characters have moved on. Now we have politicians who seem
:17:18. > :17:21.rather like one another. That is partly because the divisions have
:17:22. > :17:26.narrowed between political parties quite substantially, I think. And
:17:27. > :17:29.partly because of some of the things Tony addressed. What is interesting
:17:30. > :17:32.is he was yearning for a world that had gone. I don't think he was
:17:33. > :17:38.tremenduously a man of the modern world. Hang on you can have your
:17:39. > :17:41.opinion in the minute. Speaking at Glastonbury, packing out Town Halls
:17:42. > :17:45.around the country. Let me finish the sentence. He didn't really
:17:46. > :17:48.recognise that the world was becoming global and he wasn't in
:17:49. > :17:52.that sense a politician who had a global view? What do you say to
:17:53. > :17:56.that? I think he was a great internationalist, whether it was his
:17:57. > :18:02.position on Iraq, on apartheid. I was against Iraq too, so was my
:18:03. > :18:07.party. Was he someone whose time had passed? It is extraordinary, he's so
:18:08. > :18:10.popular, not with the blue rinse ladies but with young people. He was
:18:11. > :18:16.an inspirational figure. He was also actually a very kind man and
:18:17. > :18:19.incredibly courteous, if all politicians had his intellectual
:18:20. > :18:24.curiosity and his curtesy parliament would be a better place. I'm going
:18:25. > :18:28.to talk, you two are never going to agree, Shirley we will come back to
:18:29. > :18:41.you in one second. But Tim, where are the equivalents, whether on the
:18:42. > :18:46.left or right, or somewhere in the middle. Are those characters there?
:18:47. > :18:51.I think there are some characterists, like Dan Hannon, they
:18:52. > :18:54.agree with Tony Benn on democracy. Lots on the right think where he
:18:55. > :18:57.stood on Europe, the idea I think he once said that outside of the
:18:58. > :19:02.Kremlin there is no organisation where there is less accountability
:19:03. > :19:07.than the European Union. His belief that we should be able to change the
:19:08. > :19:10.people who make our laws in a democracy, he would be standing with
:19:11. > :19:13.all sorts of the most interesting people in politics on that
:19:14. > :19:17.democratic question. Interesting that none of those people are in
:19:18. > :19:21.particularly senior positions. Shirley, finally to you, you knew
:19:22. > :19:25.him for the longest time. What was he like and what will you remember,
:19:26. > :19:30.briefly you if you could? He was a fine thinking, he was an interesting
:19:31. > :19:33.man who came up with new ideas. He was not unique in being for example
:19:34. > :19:38.against Iraq, some remember that the entire party which I happened to be
:19:39. > :19:42.involved in was against Iraq and he was, for example, not unique in
:19:43. > :19:46.being in favour of gay marriage, because Roy Jenkins who was the
:19:47. > :19:49.other extreme, the right-wing of the Labour Party was the man who brought
:19:50. > :19:54.in the actual legislation about homosexuality in a way that Tony
:19:55. > :19:57.wasn't in a position to do. I think with great respect that Diane is
:19:58. > :20:00.giving him credit for all sorts of things which other Labour
:20:01. > :20:04.politicians absolutely aspired. You two can continue this conversation,
:20:05. > :20:08.but I am afraid we have run out of time. Thank you all very much for
:20:09. > :20:12.coming in this evening. Now, the Russian and American foreign policy
:20:13. > :20:21.bosses at least talked face-to-face today about Ukraine. But as soon as
:20:22. > :20:25.emerged that John Kerry and Sergei Lavrov had booked separate venues
:20:26. > :20:28.for their press conferences, it was thought nothing could be achieved.
:20:29. > :20:33.They couldn't be further apart on this crisis. The Americans say this
:20:34. > :20:38.referendum on Crimea is illegal. Russia, not surprisingly will
:20:39. > :20:46.respect the result. Well we're there tonight. Is there anything more the
:20:47. > :20:48.west can do to stop this vote from actually happening? Well, it is
:20:49. > :20:55.fascinating question, one of the things that's become really clear in
:20:56. > :21:00.this is President Putin's desire to control this crisis. If you like the
:21:01. > :21:05.escalate or deescalate controller. We have seen that today with what
:21:06. > :21:11.was said in London. For example there has been another example in
:21:12. > :21:15.Ukraine of violence between pro-Russian and anti-Russian people.
:21:16. > :21:22.Will it lead to issues in Ukraine, you have no ideas from the London
:21:23. > :21:27.meeting with Lavrov today. John Kerry said one thing clear was
:21:28. > :21:30.President Putin didn't want to make any decisions on the crisis until
:21:31. > :21:34.after the Sunday referendum in Crimea. Countries opposed to what
:21:35. > :21:37.he's trying to do will have their say in the United Nations tomorrow.
:21:38. > :21:42.We know of course that Russia will veto that. And meanwhile, everything
:21:43. > :21:46.is building up towards that vote and you get an absolutely clear
:21:47. > :21:53.impression on the ground of Russia's determination to prevail here.
:21:54. > :22:01.Crimea's political connection to Ukraine is now a slender slither of
:22:02. > :22:06.land. Coming in by train you speed past a Ukrainian army checkpoint
:22:07. > :22:15.that effectively marks a border with part of their own country. Arriving
:22:16. > :22:27.here locals with armband, Russians are there to ensure order and stop
:22:28. > :22:31.new comesers to search them. For some people, like the couple of
:22:32. > :22:36.hundred who lined the roads, this is a future they don't want to share.
:22:37. > :22:40.It is to show not everyone in Crimea supports Russia, and actually a lot
:22:41. > :22:48.of people are for Ukraine, and we don't want to be a Bart of Russia.
:22:49. > :22:52.But Travelling an hour east along the road we found out how hard it is
:22:53. > :22:58.to stand in the way of Crimea's return to Russia. Just above the
:22:59. > :23:04.town is a huge zoo and tourist attraction. Falling in behind his
:23:05. > :23:08.referendum battle wagon, we joined its owner, an ardent supporter of
:23:09. > :23:17.the union with Russia, who took us on a tour of Europe's largest
:23:18. > :23:23.collection... Of tigers and lions. And where as President Putin might
:23:24. > :23:33.like the idea of wrestling lions, Oleg actually does. I have been in
:23:34. > :23:38.some tricky situations, I wasn't quite expecting to find myself
:23:39. > :23:43.face-to-face with lions, while discussing the Crimea referendum.
:23:44. > :23:47.The lion park's owner is not only wealthy and well connected, but he
:23:48. > :23:51.has helped organise the local self-defence group as well as the
:23:52. > :24:01.referendum and is convinced where Crimea's destiny lies. TRANSLATION:
:24:02. > :24:06.I think our future is Russia, separation was a mistake by crush
:24:07. > :24:10.shove, this will be corrected. Nobody could imagine the events that
:24:11. > :24:13.the USSR would collapse, and the Crimea would transfer to the Ukraine
:24:14. > :24:19.and with such consequences. Who would believe it would end in such a
:24:20. > :24:28.dirty trick. The spirit here is more Russian than Ukrainian. Down here
:24:29. > :24:36.there is resistence, in this community of 50,000, the mayor
:24:37. > :24:40.refused to carry out Sunday's referendum. TRANSLATION: I initially
:24:41. > :24:45.addressed the citizens, urging them in such difficult times we should
:24:46. > :24:49.all remain calm, not to be addressive or provocative to each
:24:50. > :24:56.other. I did this to prevent the situation getting out of control. To
:24:57. > :25:00.risk a sma spark ignighting a big fire. The mayor's warning has been
:25:01. > :25:07.ignored, he has been bypassed by local officials, who are now working
:25:08. > :25:12.hard to prepare ballot papers for Sunday's vote. They invited us in to
:25:13. > :25:27.see. It is no mean feat, since the sudden announcement of the poll left
:25:28. > :25:34.no time for a new electoral register The mix of identities here causes
:25:35. > :25:37.this split. While the tatas, of whom the mayor is one have dark memories
:25:38. > :25:44.of Soviet times, local Russians would gladly have them back.
:25:45. > :25:49.TRANSLATION: To me this is a historical moment, a restoration of
:25:50. > :25:55.what became a smaller motherland to my great motherland that is Russia.
:25:56. > :25:59.Those who oppose the referendum will boycott it, that is not just tatas,
:26:00. > :26:06.we found local Ukrainians planning to as well. TRANSLATION: I think
:26:07. > :26:10.this is an occupation. Occupiers have invaded our land. We have lived
:26:11. > :26:16.with Russians in peace and harmony since ancient times, and now he
:26:17. > :26:22.wants to start world war three, we don't want war. That message on the
:26:23. > :26:26.banner, that Crimea is Russian, is one that most people in the
:26:27. > :26:30.territory would subscribe to. But this town is split. And pushing the
:26:31. > :26:42.referendum through will leave a legacy of bitterness that could sow
:26:43. > :26:48.the seeds of future strife. This man already senses victory, a powerful
:26:49. > :27:02.majority for union with Russia, leaving the Catholicics penned in by
:27:03. > :27:05.their own ideas. Does art get at the truth before
:27:06. > :27:10.history can write it. Sir David Hare, one of our most celebrated
:27:11. > :27:18.playwrights has sent 40 years chronicling many of our biggest
:27:19. > :27:22.events. Normally from stage left. His play, The Permanent Way
:27:23. > :27:26.dramatised the sell-off of the railways. The latest work, a trilogy
:27:27. > :27:31.for TV takes on the spooks, with plots that could have been torn from
:27:32. > :27:46.the headlines and a stellar cast too. In a moment he will talk to us,
:27:47. > :27:53.mere is a thriver. What do you do? I'm financial PR. What is that? If
:27:54. > :28:00.you haven't heard of Gladstone. Years ago it would take a lifetime
:28:01. > :28:04.to destroy the reputation of a Dr Or a banker -- doctor or a banker, now
:28:05. > :28:08.you just hit send and it can happen overnight. It is my job to keep the
:28:09. > :28:16.company's good name. Does Gladstone have a good name? Good enough. Sir
:28:17. > :28:19.David is here with us now. In modern times we have always had the
:28:20. > :28:25.Security Services, there has always been intrigue around them, whether
:28:26. > :28:29.that is James Bond or Le Carre. Why did you choose to take on this
:28:30. > :28:33.subject at this moment in time? Because everything changed for them
:28:34. > :28:38.in 2001, they weren't ready for it. At the end of the last century they
:28:39. > :28:42.thought that they were facing decline. I knew some people inside
:28:43. > :28:46.the building and they were really worried that it was going to be a
:28:47. > :28:49.very bad time for spies, with Northern Ireland settled the Cold
:28:50. > :28:54.War over it appeared to be a low movement in spies' fortunes. They
:28:55. > :28:57.didn't see the direction that trouble was coming from, they
:28:58. > :29:01.weren't ready for t and they weren't ready for some of the moral problems
:29:02. > :29:06.raised in the last ten years. So a boom time for the Security Services
:29:07. > :29:12.has given you new fodder? I think it is that John Le Carre is somebody we
:29:13. > :29:16.all admire as a great writer in the field. But he had the Cold War, or
:29:17. > :29:18.he wrote brilliantly about the cold war, but nobody has been writing
:29:19. > :29:27.about the particular issues that have come up since the invasion of
:29:28. > :29:30.Iraq and 9/11. Those are about the means by which intelligence is
:29:31. > :29:37.gathered. And the scruples or lack of them that exist inside MI5, I
:29:38. > :29:40.know less about 5. MI 6, but the scruples that exist within the
:29:41. > :29:43.intelligence community and the argument that is go on inside the
:29:44. > :29:47.community about how they should be behaving. What were the arguments?
:29:48. > :29:51.There is people inside MI5 that believe the ends justify the means
:29:52. > :29:56.and there are those who don't. There is absolutely no doubt we have been
:29:57. > :29:59.complicit in illegal ways of torturing people to gather
:30:00. > :30:02.information. We know we have. You know, they look at information and
:30:03. > :30:07.they say, well this is strangely good, how on earth can it be so
:30:08. > :30:11.good. They claim not to then take the next step where they say how can
:30:12. > :30:14.this intelligence be so good. Some people favour these methods, and
:30:15. > :30:18.politicians, unfortunately are forced to lie about it. But the
:30:19. > :30:22.Government denies that, it is quite an accusation to say politicians lie
:30:23. > :30:25.about this all the time. Are you saying people inside the Security
:30:26. > :30:30.Services have been open with you about that? It is quite an
:30:31. > :30:37.allegation? Oh yeah. Categorically? Yes, of course. And why then do you
:30:38. > :30:44.think that in the same era where we have Edward Snowden, we have Bradley
:30:45. > :30:47.Manning, and wicky ks putting huge amounts of information about the
:30:48. > :30:52.services out into the public domain, why do we need to have writing about
:30:53. > :30:57.it, given that information bursts out from everywhere? I'm writing
:30:58. > :31:02.because it is entertaining, I'm writing about a jolly Warwick,
:31:03. > :31:05.imagined character within MI5, it is not documentary what I write, it is
:31:06. > :31:10.fiction. But it is fiction that is based on what is closely going on.
:31:11. > :31:12.And I hope these films are extremely entertaining. That is what they are
:31:13. > :31:16.meant to be. You have never shied away from taking on political
:31:17. > :31:19.subjects and famously you stopped voting Labour because of the Iraq
:31:20. > :31:29.wax and then I understand voted Liberal Democrat in 2010. Bringing
:31:30. > :31:36.out All myment painful secrets. I thought the ballot box was private.
:31:37. > :31:41.What do you make of the Government now, despite the comments about the
:31:42. > :31:54.Security Services. What do you make of the coalition for the Liberal
:31:55. > :31:58.Democrats you voted for. I think foreign policy has been donated to
:31:59. > :32:03.Washington, they are giving away their power all the time. The things
:32:04. > :32:07.the state used to own they give away. They have recently given away
:32:08. > :32:11.the Royal Mail. Politicians seem more and more diminished and seem to
:32:12. > :32:14.be happy to be. In other words to delegate authority now seems to be
:32:15. > :32:17.what politicians want to do because they are frightened of taking
:32:18. > :32:22.responsibility for things. You are sounding a bit like Tony Benn? I
:32:23. > :32:26.think that the interesting thing about what's been said today about
:32:27. > :32:30.Tony Benn is that everybody's been saying he was very eloquent and he's
:32:31. > :32:35.a great speaker and wonderful orator, but oratory is about
:32:36. > :32:41.content. The reason he was interesting is because he had
:32:42. > :32:45.interesting ideas. Eloquence doesn't arrive on top of ideas, it is the
:32:46. > :32:48.expression of ideas. The reason the current leaders are boring and
:32:49. > :32:53.effectively that is what your speaker has just said, there is
:32:54. > :32:56.nobody who speaks interestingly any more, that is because they don't
:32:57. > :33:07.have interesting ideas, not because they are not great rhetorician.
:33:08. > :33:12.Isn't it easy to say these things from a North London intellectual
:33:13. > :33:17.life? I used to feel the opposite. I wrote about Neil Kinnock and the
:33:18. > :33:20.1991 election. I was convinced on both sides, John Major a man I
:33:21. > :33:24.admired very much, and Neil Kinnock whom I also admired. I was convinced
:33:25. > :33:28.that politicians were working for the public good. I think it is very
:33:29. > :33:31.hard after the Iraq War and the ex-PEPses scandal to believe that
:33:32. > :33:37.they are any more. It has to be two way. They can't ask us to respect
:33:38. > :33:41.them unless they respect us. That's why writing about MI5 is so
:33:42. > :33:45.interesting. Because you know if they are to respect us, they
:33:46. > :33:52.actually have to tell us something about what's going on. Just let me
:33:53. > :34:00.finish, that means not shutting down the Gibson Inquiry, and it means
:34:01. > :34:07.taking the Chalcot inquiry seriously. Thank you very much for
:34:08. > :34:11.coming in and speaking to us. The Warwick trilogy starts tomorrow on
:34:12. > :34:15.BBC Two. That is all from us tonight. We will leave you with one
:34:16. > :34:19.more reminder of the words of Tony Benn who died this morning, and the
:34:20. > :34:22.way he put the personal and political together to fight for his
:34:23. > :34:29.cause. As you will hear, never more so than during his battle against
:34:30. > :34:33.the war in Iraq. Good night. I was born a quarter of a mile from where
:34:34. > :34:38.we are sitting now, I was here in London during the blitz, every night
:34:39. > :34:42.I went down to the shelter, 500 people killed, my brother was killed
:34:43. > :34:47.and my friends were killed. When the charter of the UN was read to me,
:34:48. > :34:49."we the peoples of the United Nations determine to save succeeding
:34:50. > :34:53.generations from the scourge of war" that was the pledge my generation
:34:54. > :34:58.gave to the younger generation and you tore it up, it is a war crime
:34:59. > :35:03.that has been committed in Iraq. There is no moral difference.
:35:04. > :35:07.LINEBREAK APPLAUSE Between a stealth and suicide
:35:08. > :35:26.bomber, both kill people for political reasons.
:35:27. > :35:31.The weekend is upon us, for many of us not looking too bad. Some rain
:35:32. > :35:32.around, notably across the