:00:07. > :00:11.Ist keeping David Cameron in Downing
:00:12. > :00:15.Street versus the man they say is most likely to get him kicked out.
:00:16. > :00:20.The Liberal Democrat leader faces off against the UKIP leader. People
:00:21. > :00:23.like Nick think we are not good enough, we have to give away control
:00:24. > :00:27.to all of these things to somebody else who will do it for us, we are
:00:28. > :00:31.too small to survive. I'm not prepared to see anyone lose their
:00:32. > :00:37.job on the altar of Nigel Farage's anti-European dogma. Whilst the
:00:38. > :00:46.sophologists scratch their head as to what it all means, we are heading
:00:47. > :00:51.down the pub. Farrage goes for the twinkly smile that we have seen a
:00:52. > :01:02.lot of, is this good or bad. Is this man, the President of Rwanda, having
:01:03. > :01:10.his political enemies assassinated. What happened to the Britain which
:01:11. > :01:15.had a horror of getting into debt. A long time ago it was stigmatised and
:01:16. > :01:19.now it is normalised for every level of debt. Is it OK? It is not
:01:20. > :01:36.something you can say is OK or not. It is a fact of life now. It
:01:37. > :01:41.featured two men in grey suits and manage magenta ties, neither with a
:01:42. > :01:48.bit of doubt. Tonight's debate with thor of the Liberal Democrats and
:01:49. > :01:53.the leader of the UKIP party was supposed to be with the European
:01:54. > :01:57.Union. Yet the repeated refrain from each man was that's simply not true.
:01:58. > :02:05.Each preferred to pose a question and then to answer it himself. Who
:02:06. > :02:09.had the best night. Nigel Farage admitted the invitation to debate
:02:10. > :02:14.Nick Clegg had initially made him choke on his bacon sarnie, tonight
:02:15. > :02:19.he was finding it a little easier to swallow. I have just been for a bit
:02:20. > :02:23.of a dress rehearsal in the Westminster Arms and I'm fine. Nick
:02:24. > :02:28.Clegg was the insurgent three years ago, the TV debates in 2010 served
:02:29. > :02:33.him so well he came back for more. Now he's the incumbent, the deputy
:02:34. > :02:42.PM, arguably the old hand. I'm looking forward to it. I'm Nick
:02:43. > :02:46.Ferrari and welcome to the debate. Such an old hand that he opened
:02:47. > :02:49.tonight's debate with rather familiar words. This debate is about
:02:50. > :02:56.you, it is simple, it is about your job. Let's remind to 2010 to remind
:02:57. > :03:03.you. Tonight's debate it about you. About your job... For a radio
:03:04. > :03:06.broadcast it was all rather glam, high-definition TV and swanky set,
:03:07. > :03:12.in a less swanky pub a few miles away, we caught the reaction of our
:03:13. > :03:17.apt viewers. Now both Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg know the intricacies
:03:18. > :03:21.of EU legislation well, they knew tonight was not the night for it.
:03:22. > :03:27.This would be an evening of polarisation, in or out on Europe
:03:28. > :03:31.and no no nonsense questions on Europe. Why don't the British
:03:32. > :03:34.politicians trust the British public and give us a referendum on the
:03:35. > :03:37.membership of the EU now. From time to time they offer a referendum,
:03:38. > :03:41.they do it cynically, funnily enough at election time. And they say vote
:03:42. > :03:45.for us we will give you a referendum and then do their absolute best not
:03:46. > :03:47.to. It will never again happen over the heads of the British people.
:03:48. > :03:51.Then the consent of the British people should be asked by way of a
:03:52. > :03:54.referendum, that is what I have always believed, that has always
:03:55. > :03:58.been my position, I have never wavered in that position. That is
:03:59. > :04:02.why the last time the rules changed, something called the Lisbon Treaty I
:04:03. > :04:07.said there would be a referendum. What did they make of those answers?
:04:08. > :04:13.A trained politician who has spent years learning how to present how to
:04:14. > :04:17.marshall facts, Nigel is more of an outsider. Then it was the turn of
:04:18. > :04:21.John Connelly in the audience, why were our borders wide open he asked
:04:22. > :04:27.to eastern Europeans who came to take jobs? It says here that 29
:04:28. > :04:34.million Bulgarians may come to this country. There aren't even 29
:04:35. > :04:38.million of Romanians and Bulgarians living in their countries it is
:04:39. > :04:41.simply not true. You didn't answer the question. You tried to do
:04:42. > :04:45.trickery with the 29 million, saying there aren't 29 million, you know
:04:46. > :04:50.because two million have left around and they have gone to Italy and to
:04:51. > :04:54.Spain. Nick you didn't answer the basic question, I'm not claiming 29
:04:55. > :05:00.million people have the right to come to Britain. Yes you did. I'm
:05:01. > :05:03.claiming 485 million people have the total unconditional right to come to
:05:04. > :05:09.this country if they want to. And I think you are quite right. Let's
:05:10. > :05:12.listen to the facts, let me have it. We are members of the European Union
:05:13. > :05:16.we have the free flow of people, are you denying that? Yes it is not
:05:17. > :05:20.unqualified. Would you deny that. It is not the case that anyone can move
:05:21. > :05:25.to this country and simply claim benefits or live. I didn't mention
:05:26. > :05:30.benefit, you keep doing benefits. And what of the economy without the
:05:31. > :05:35.EU. Nick Clegg wheeled out his well-rehearsed figure. Who says we
:05:36. > :05:40.are sacrificing any jobs. I hope he brings out the three million jobs
:05:41. > :05:43.line. How many jobs are they prepared to lose, rely plea
:05:44. > :05:47.estimated that three million jobs are linked to our position. When you
:05:48. > :05:51.answer a question like that by saying three million jobs are at
:05:52. > :05:54.risk, you show that like virtually everybody at Westminster you have
:05:55. > :05:58.never run your own company, you have never had a proper job in the real
:05:59. > :06:01.world, you are part of this political bubble that picked up a
:06:02. > :06:07.piece of research that was produced ten years ago by a guy who himself
:06:08. > :06:11.now said all he said was the jobs are linked to trade in Europe. The
:06:12. > :06:16.issue of criminal justice took a curious turn as Nick Clegg accused
:06:17. > :06:20.Nick Clegg of letting the British people down by failing to vote. You
:06:21. > :06:23.may be left up to 18 months in prison without facing a charge. We
:06:24. > :06:28.have a system of common law in this country, we have had for 800 years,
:06:29. > :06:33.but it is based on the presumption of innocence before guilt, it is
:06:34. > :06:38.based on habeas corpus and common law and we must defend it. Why did
:06:39. > :06:42.you vote against. We must defend the principles of liberty, freedom and
:06:43. > :06:46.justice. You should defend, we should all defend the rights of
:06:47. > :06:56.British citizens. Why did you not do that. Taking over each other, they
:06:57. > :07:04.all do it. Coming to a close the biggest question of all fro LBC
:07:05. > :07:10.listener Beth. The one about lies. How can I believe your integrity,
:07:11. > :07:16.Nigel you put your wife on your payroll and Nick you lied about
:07:17. > :07:20.tuition fees. Trust is a rare commodity in politics these day,
:07:21. > :07:25.because in the issues of referendum it has been taken out of the hands
:07:26. > :07:32.of politicians like Nigel and mine. You are paying your wife? I have a
:07:33. > :07:36.group in the European Parliament and political in this country. I never
:07:37. > :07:40.said I wouldn't. I very much doubt that anybody else in British
:07:41. > :07:43.politics has worked the hours and had so little fun as me over the
:07:44. > :07:48.course of the last few years. I'm very sorry to hear that, I don't see
:07:49. > :07:52.how paying your wife makes up for it? Because when you get home at
:07:53. > :07:55.midnight, if you are lucky, you need someone there to say I have done
:07:56. > :07:58.this I have done, that here are the documents for tomorrow, and without
:07:59. > :08:02.having unpaid assistance from my wife for seven years, and paid in a
:08:03. > :08:10.very modest way for five years I couldn't have done it. He still
:08:11. > :08:15.can't answer the question can he. I thought he did answer it. No, he
:08:16. > :08:19.didn't. From the moment the debate began the Twitterer war was on. Lib
:08:20. > :08:25.Dems hammering home a phrase made famous by Gordon Brown. Nick Clegg
:08:26. > :08:31.and Nigel Farage thank you for taking part. Even the Conservatives
:08:32. > :08:36.were keen to home bomb Nick Clegg, the man who could slaughter the UKIP
:08:37. > :08:41.beast for them. Who won? Nigel Farage spoke with clearer language
:08:42. > :08:48.but looked uncomfortable. Nick Clegg less prone to exasperation, both the
:08:49. > :08:51.PM and the Labour leader insisted they weren't watching, but there
:08:52. > :08:59.will be lessons for them to learn from tonight's fight, thank God for
:09:00. > :09:03.catch-up TV. George Parker is the political editor of the Financial
:09:04. > :09:07.Times, Melanie Philips a journalist and social commentator, and Phil
:09:08. > :09:12.Collins writes for the Times. Let as not try to call it one way or
:09:13. > :09:17.another, nobody knows really. Was Nick Clegg wise to issue this
:09:18. > :09:21.challenge first off do you think? I think absolutely, I think it is a
:09:22. > :09:26.no-brainer for Nick Clegg, this is a party at the moment which is polling
:09:27. > :09:29.around 10%, Nigel Farage's party is polling around ten pest as well.
:09:30. > :09:32.They are two minority parties discussion an issue that people
:09:33. > :09:37.don't care very much about and they are getting wall-to-wall publicity,
:09:38. > :09:40.including on this programme, of course it is a no-brainer, he was
:09:41. > :09:46.right to issue the challenge. The Liberal Democrats have set the bar
:09:47. > :09:52.very low, they want to get the 8-9% up to 11-12% a level to which they
:09:53. > :09:55.think they can save the 12 MEPs they have at the moment. At least Nigel
:09:56. > :10:00.Farage didn't look completely nuts did he? I would imagine that anyone,
:10:01. > :10:03.nobody would even possibly think he would look completely nuts. He did
:10:04. > :10:07.get the edge on Nick Clegg, I thought some of the things he said
:10:08. > :10:13.to Nick Clegg, some of the challenges he laid down Clegg did
:10:14. > :10:18.not actually answer properly. The three million piece of research, the
:10:19. > :10:23.three million jobs at risk you know, it is a pretty dodgy one. And Mr
:10:24. > :10:26.Clegg did not come back on open borders, he didn't really answer
:10:27. > :10:30.that question, going on and on about, I always wanted a referendum
:10:31. > :10:34.with new rules, and everyone wants the referendum on the old rules,
:10:35. > :10:41.that is the point. Mr Farrage fell down on the ECHR, he did not make
:10:42. > :10:44.the point which Mr Clegg did make, that the European Court of Human
:10:45. > :10:49.Rights, human rights law has nothing to do with the EU. I thought he
:10:50. > :10:53.looked very shifty over "the wife" and the employment of the "the
:10:54. > :10:57.wife". Overall I was looking at the overall messages that both men were
:10:58. > :11:01.conveying and you see Nick Clegg was actually for a Lib Dem this is
:11:02. > :11:07.really quite ironic, I thought that Nick Clegg was giving a kind of fear
:11:08. > :11:11.message, you know, if we come out it will be terrible and was trying to
:11:12. > :11:17.sort of scare monger over jobs and was basically saying Britain can't
:11:18. > :11:20.go it alone. Where as Nigel Farage, curiously was the much more
:11:21. > :11:24.optimistic of the two, much more attractive of the two. He was saying
:11:25. > :11:28.Britain can do it again and we have to have faith in ourselves and we
:11:29. > :11:32.have to take back control of our own Government. What did you make of
:11:33. > :11:36.this? That is not entirely true on immigration for example, I thought
:11:37. > :11:40.Nick Clegg gave a very clear liberal defence of immigration, which is for
:11:41. > :11:44.all the apparent liberal elite that run the country you don't hear that
:11:45. > :11:49.case made very often, he made it in a very full-throated way. He made a
:11:50. > :11:54.clear liberal case on trade, I thought he was quite coherent. I
:11:55. > :11:59.thought he won it may be because he represents views I hold. In this
:12:00. > :12:04.sense Clegg won it, even if you take the YouGov figures for a Liberal
:12:05. > :12:08.Democrat to win 36% in any poll is joy unconfined for them, that is the
:12:09. > :12:11.point of this. It is nothing to do with the EU, on which nobody's view
:12:12. > :12:14.would have changed, it is everything to do with changing your mind about
:12:15. > :12:20.Nick Clegg, that was the point of him turning up tonight. In that
:12:21. > :12:24.context was it wise for Cameron and Miliband not to be represent there
:12:25. > :12:29.had? I think it probably was, they don't have quite the same imperative
:12:30. > :12:35.as Clegg has, as George said before, to creep from nine to 12 might team
:12:36. > :12:43.like a fairly small journey but it could be crucial electorally for
:12:44. > :12:47.them. If UKIP can hold 12% they will do damage to the Conservatives.
:12:48. > :12:52.Neither of the other two want to talk about Europe, if Labour talk
:12:53. > :12:56.about Europe it is a danger their supporters go to UKIP, and Tory
:12:57. > :13:00.splits again in if they talk about it. They are the losers. Who? David
:13:01. > :13:04.Cameron and Ed Miliband, because they conspicuously did not take part
:13:05. > :13:07.in this debate. This was a debate of surrogates, and you know, their
:13:08. > :13:12.voices weren't heard and I think people will take away you know quite
:13:13. > :13:17.a poor impression of them from that. Interesting too how Clegg embraced
:13:18. > :13:19.the legislation to lock in a referendum if there is transfer of
:13:20. > :13:24.power, which is not a Liberal Democrat idea. He has come pretty
:13:25. > :13:27.late to that party. All of a sudden it was very useful for him to
:13:28. > :13:31.describe that. And Clegg has gone on the journey from the outsider to the
:13:32. > :13:35.insider and I thought he wore that quite well tonight. Farrage has come
:13:36. > :13:39.from nowhere to be the outsider, it was a peculiar moment. A very
:13:40. > :13:43.strange hour for us all to spend. Very strange. What are your
:13:44. > :13:47.feelings, two of you have mentioned this is an issue people don't really
:13:48. > :13:51.care about? Yes, well if you look at the opinion pollsters they say
:13:52. > :13:54.typically Europe doesn't come within the top ten issues that people care
:13:55. > :13:58.about in their day-to-day lives. And I think that's true, it is one of
:13:59. > :14:00.the reasons why normally in European elections politicians talk about
:14:01. > :14:03.hospitals and schools and potholes in the roads and don't talk about
:14:04. > :14:06.Europe. But I thought the interesting thing this time was the
:14:07. > :14:09.Liberal Democrats who are pro-European are actually saying we
:14:10. > :14:13.have nothing to lose, we are going to say we are pro-European and send
:14:14. > :14:17.out a message and their view is basically there is 35% of the
:14:18. > :14:20.population who are pro-European and want Britain to stay in the EU, that
:14:21. > :14:24.is the pool of voters that they are fishing in really. I don't think
:14:25. > :14:27.people don't care about it, it is just not on the forefront of
:14:28. > :14:29.people's minds, people are more concerned about the day-to-day
:14:30. > :14:33.issues, as soon as you start talking about it then I think people do care
:14:34. > :14:37.quite considerably. On one side or the other and they want to hear the
:14:38. > :14:40.arguments. People certainly care about immigration? They do, that was
:14:41. > :14:43.probably the most interesting part of the whole thing, where the
:14:44. > :14:48.divergence was very clear. Farrage lapsed into some very peculiar
:14:49. > :14:55.language at that point, I don't know if I live in the anglo--sphere, I
:14:56. > :14:58.have never been there but Nigel Farage seems to inhabit it. Nick
:14:59. > :15:02.Clegg was clearer, he didn't have a populist message, but for Clegg he
:15:03. > :15:05.wants to show leadership and to be there for an hour on the television
:15:06. > :15:12.being the leader on a big subject. That in itself is quite an important
:15:13. > :15:16.politics calm currency for him. I thought Farrage had immigration and
:15:17. > :15:21.Clegg had jobs. And I thought immigration worked about for Farrage
:15:22. > :15:26.than the jobs -- better for Farrage than the jobs for Clegg. It happens
:15:27. > :15:30.to be people's number two on the list of concerns after the economy.
:15:31. > :15:35.Nigel Farage channelled that better than Nick Clegg did. He has the
:15:36. > :15:39.easier gig in a sense. He has the more popular line, I thought Clegg
:15:40. > :15:43.made a good fist of his line, it is not a particularly popular one. I
:15:44. > :15:46.agree with Melanie about the jobs, that well-worn figure of three
:15:47. > :15:50.million is plucked out of the air, as soon as that was interrogated it
:15:51. > :15:54.is very flimsy indeed, that argument which Clegg began with, but this is
:15:55. > :15:57.essentially by our economic future, I think there is some truth in that
:15:58. > :16:02.argument, but I think he lost that part of the argument. This is also a
:16:03. > :16:09.contest for plucky outsider, underdog, to the political process.
:16:10. > :16:12.In the general election Nick Clegg scored so well because he was the
:16:13. > :16:18.plucky outsider to the political process. Now Farrage is the new guy
:16:19. > :16:23.on the block. And I think Farrage still has the edge. I think he is
:16:24. > :16:28.still the chippy outsider and saying the things that politicians won't
:16:29. > :16:31.say, you know, there were too many occasions where Nick Clegg was sort
:16:32. > :16:35.of not caught out, but was clearly looking a bit sort of uncomfortable,
:16:36. > :16:40.he didn't really answer the question. Ultimately after an hour
:16:41. > :16:44.of Farrage he began to fade, diminishing returns set in for me
:16:45. > :16:49.early, in the end he's not good enough, he's too small to survive.
:16:50. > :16:52.Thank you very much all of you. It was a bit like the good old days
:16:53. > :16:55.of the Cold War in Washington today with the British and American
:16:56. > :17:00.defence secretaries worrying over what to do about Russia. After years
:17:01. > :17:04.of improving relations the invasion of Crimea has reset the clock. It
:17:05. > :17:09.has done so when almost everyone in NATO has less money to spend on
:17:10. > :17:13.defence. Barack Obama on his first presidential visit to Brussels said
:17:14. > :17:18.he had concerns about the diminished level of defence spending among
:17:19. > :17:22.America as allies. He also found time for a pointed reminder of how
:17:23. > :17:29.the last stand-off between east and west came to an end. For decades a
:17:30. > :17:36.contest was waged, and ultimately that contest was won, not by tanks
:17:37. > :17:42.or missiles, but because our ideals stirred the hearts of Hungarians who
:17:43. > :17:51.sparked a revolution. Polls in and shipyards who stood in solidarity.
:17:52. > :17:57.Waging a revolution without firing a shot. Eastern Berliners who marched
:17:58. > :18:04.past the guards and finally tore down that wall. The Defence
:18:05. > :18:10.Secretary Philip Hammond met his US counterpart in Washington today from
:18:11. > :18:17.he joins me now. In your assessment of this stand-off between Russia and
:18:18. > :18:23.the west what would it take to move from economic sanctions to something
:18:24. > :18:30.more serious that might involve NATO? NATO is involved already.
:18:31. > :18:35.We're very clear that the preferred way of dealing with this situation
:18:36. > :18:42.over the Ukraine and Crimea is through economic diplomatic and
:18:43. > :18:46.political pressure on Russia. And President Obama has emphasised in
:18:47. > :18:51.that speech you were carrying there today in Brussels that these are the
:18:52. > :18:57.tools we will use in dealing with the crisis over the Ukraine. He was
:18:58. > :19:00.very clear that there is not a military option around resolving the
:19:01. > :19:07.crisis in the Ukraine. There is no military option? That's what the
:19:08. > :19:12.President said in the speech and of course that will carry a great deal
:19:13. > :19:19.of weight. But he also made the point that we have weapons of
:19:20. > :19:24.economic, political and diplomatic sanction that will exact a very
:19:25. > :19:30.significant price from Russia and if the crisis were to endure over time
:19:31. > :19:35.it would make life very difficult indeed for Russia and the Russian
:19:36. > :19:39.people. I read the text of a lecture you gave today in which you said you
:19:40. > :19:44.became accustomed to hearing a certain amount of sniping in North
:19:45. > :19:48.America about what the capabilities were of the European NATO allies.
:19:49. > :20:00.What sort of things are they sniping about? Well I think Secretary Gates
:20:01. > :20:04.when he was the Defence Secretary first set the perfectly legitimate
:20:05. > :20:09.question, why would the US taxpayer want to spend their dollars
:20:10. > :20:13.defending European countries that are unwilling to pay for their own
:20:14. > :20:18.defence. That is a legitimate question and one which we in
:20:19. > :20:23.European NATO have to answer. The sniping that I referred to was a
:20:24. > :20:27.more specific sniping around the relationship between the UK and the
:20:28. > :20:33.US in defence matters. Where there have been a number of commentators
:20:34. > :20:38.on both sides of the Atlantic questioning whether Britain is able
:20:39. > :20:44.to be a credible partner of the United States. And I was very
:20:45. > :20:49.pleased this morning here to hear the Secretary of State of defence
:20:50. > :20:54.Hagel saying clearly that Britain is a credible reliable and valued
:20:55. > :21:00.partner. The United States has made clear that it's its future defence
:21:01. > :21:06.plans will involve closer working with allies and I'm clear that
:21:07. > :21:09.Britain is first in line to be the ally of preference for closer
:21:10. > :21:14.working in the future and one of the things we have done today is to talk
:21:15. > :21:18.about areas where we can do more together in the future, collaberate
:21:19. > :21:26.more closely in the interests of both countries and of NATO and of
:21:27. > :21:29.the free world more generally. Niece these snipers are right, we have no
:21:30. > :21:34.operational aircraft carriers, the size of the army has been cut by a
:21:35. > :21:38.fifth, the former chief of the general staff Lord Dannett thinks
:21:39. > :21:46.that it has been cut far too far. They are right? Frankly I'm less
:21:47. > :21:50.interested in what former chiefs and former generals think than the
:21:51. > :21:54.advice time' getting from my current military chiefs and the current
:21:55. > :22:02.military chiefs are telling me that we must invest in the frontiers of
:22:03. > :22:06.defence, we must invest in cyber, we must invest in intelligence
:22:07. > :22:09.acquisitions, surveillance, reconnaissance capabilities. These
:22:10. > :22:14.are the things that we need to invest in. And with limited budgets
:22:15. > :22:19.investing more in the new technologies to deal with the
:22:20. > :22:23.threats that we will face in the future inevitably means spending
:22:24. > :22:28.less on the old and familiar capabilities. On carrier strike, yes
:22:29. > :22:35.we have accepted a gap in our carrier strike capability, but on
:22:36. > :22:42.the 4th of July this year, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be launched at
:22:43. > :22:46.Rosyth, a 65,000-tonne carrier, the largest ship the Royal Navy has had.
:22:47. > :22:52.We are in the process of regenerating our carrier strike
:22:53. > :22:57.capability with these new ships and the F-35 strike aircraft, one of the
:22:58. > :23:02.world's most capable fighters. We will be back in that game with
:23:03. > :23:06.avengence. Can I ask you a question about Ukraine, are there any
:23:07. > :23:15.contingency plans for military action of any kind? Ass I have said
:23:16. > :23:19.already we do not believe there will be an appropriate military response
:23:20. > :23:25.to the crisis in the Ukraine. This has to be resolved by diplomatic
:23:26. > :23:30.means and in the end there has to be negotiations between the Ukrainians
:23:31. > :23:35.and the Russians. Ukraine is not a NATO member, it is outside the
:23:36. > :23:39.alliance, we're very clear and President Obama has made clear today
:23:40. > :23:44.that those countries that are inside NATO, including the Baltic states,
:23:45. > :23:50.benefit from a very strong and clear military guarantee by NATO. We can't
:23:51. > :23:55.extend that to countries outside the NATO alliance. Thank you very much.
:23:56. > :24:01.Tony Blair thinks he's a visionary, Britain has given his country
:24:02. > :24:09.millions upon millions in aid, Rwanda's President, Paul Kagami has
:24:10. > :24:13.been a poster boy in these measures. 20 years since the genocide there
:24:14. > :24:18.Rwanda's economy is growing at 8% a year, it comes at a price, Kagami's
:24:19. > :24:24.opponents get locked up or worse, killed. So many opponents have fled
:24:25. > :24:28.abroad. But even there they are not safe. The South African Government
:24:29. > :24:32.has just expelled four Rwandan diplomats who they said were
:24:33. > :24:34.involved in the murder and attempted murder of Rwandans in South Africa.
:24:35. > :24:56.We investigated. New Year's Eve, Johannesburg.
:24:57. > :25:06.Rwanda's former intelligence chief is on his way to an expensive hotel.
:25:07. > :25:14.He's going to see an old informant. It was his friend, he used to come
:25:15. > :25:23.and stay in his house many times. Patrick Karaga left his car in the
:25:24. > :25:28.car park in Michelangelo Towers, and made his way up to suite 105, his
:25:29. > :25:33.family would never hear from him again. His phones and everything
:25:34. > :25:40.started going off from 8.00, 9.00, that is when they murdered him. The
:25:41. > :25:43.friend, a man by the name of Apollo, was used as bait. The killers
:25:44. > :25:46.themselves are thought to have rented a suite across the cor
:25:47. > :25:55.templet we don't know how many of them there were. We do know that
:25:56. > :25:59.Patrick Karaga seems to have put up a fight. The room was a mess, you
:26:00. > :26:06.could see everything was a nightmare, we found the towel and
:26:07. > :26:13.the towel was full of blood and the rope. He had marks all over. So
:26:14. > :26:21.later they used the rope to hang him tight. His face had turned charcoal
:26:22. > :26:26.black. Patrick was once one of the most powerful figures in Rwanda.
:26:27. > :26:34.Paul Kagami's chief of external intelligence. He fled to South
:26:35. > :26:40.Africa in 2008 after falling out with the regime. There he helped set
:26:41. > :26:43.up an opposition movement called the Rwandan National Congress. His
:26:44. > :26:47.friends family are in no doubt that he was murdered on the orders of the
:26:48. > :26:52.Rwandan President. What I know is yes given his position, the way he
:26:53. > :27:02.was and the way he did his job for all those years when he was part of
:27:03. > :27:06.the Kagami regime, he may have known things and may have been in
:27:07. > :27:10.opposition to those things. Almost certainly he would have known some
:27:11. > :27:15.dark secrets, but his murder may have had more to do with whom rather
:27:16. > :27:19.than what he knew. Patrick may have been an exile but he still had
:27:20. > :27:23.friends inside Rwandan intelligence. To Paul Kagami those contacts could
:27:24. > :27:27.possibly have constituted a threat. But to others they were an asset.
:27:28. > :27:34.Newsnight has learned that from around the middle of last year Mr
:27:35. > :27:37.Karagaya held a series of meetings with South Africa and Tanzania
:27:38. > :27:40.military intelligence. The meetings happened at night and in secret.
:27:41. > :27:46.They took place just as South Africa and Tanzania were sending their
:27:47. > :27:56.troops to Congo to fight a Rwandan-backed rebel group. The
:27:57. > :28:01.group was formed in early 2012, it called itself M 23. Within months
:28:02. > :28:07.they had the much more powerful Congalese military on the run. The
:28:08. > :28:13.United Nations said the rebels were receiving support from Rwanda. But
:28:14. > :28:17.in mid-2013 a new UN brigade, made up of principally South African and
:28:18. > :28:24.Tanzania soldiers began taking the fight to the rebels. And by November
:28:25. > :28:31.M 23 were defeated. Their demise was swifter than their rise. Could
:28:32. > :28:35.Patrick's late night meetings have contributed to the defeat of a
:28:36. > :28:40.Rwandan proxy army, and could that in part at least explain his death.
:28:41. > :28:45.Shortly after the murder Rwanda's President did little to distance
:28:46. > :29:13.himself from the killing, while officially denying any involvement.
:29:14. > :29:19.Patrick Karagaya's death served as a stark warning for exiles in South
:29:20. > :29:24.Africa. Another high ranking official in Paul Kagami's entourage
:29:25. > :29:28.was one. The general is understandably perhaps very cautious
:29:29. > :29:35.about his security, about who he meets, about giving out contact
:29:36. > :29:40.details. We have managed to get in touch with an intermediary and have
:29:41. > :29:45.managed to range to meet them in a hotel outside Johannesburg. We will
:29:46. > :29:51.follow you, we are in the grey Toyota. Wait for me. Thanks. Six
:29:52. > :29:56.men, three of them Rwandan are currently on trial in Johannesburg
:29:57. > :30:02.accuse of the attempted murder of a man in 2010. Since then he has
:30:03. > :30:05.survived two more sassination attempts, the most recent earlier
:30:06. > :30:10.this month. So the general is in hiding, living under South African
:30:11. > :30:15.state protection. They ran away from danger, I ran away from somebody I
:30:16. > :30:23.thought wanted my life, and that was the President of Rwanda. He said
:30:24. > :30:28.that Patrick and I are like flies and if it requires him to use a ham
:30:29. > :30:31.Tory kill a fly he will do it. You knew President Kagami well, would
:30:32. > :30:37.you have called him a friend at one point? No, never. First of all he's
:30:38. > :30:42.a very violent person. Have you seen that? Oh yes, many times, beating
:30:43. > :30:50.people, very many times in my life. I have seen him doing that. In the
:30:51. > :30:56.aftermath of the genocide in which 800,000 mostly Tutsi Rwandans tide,
:30:57. > :31:01.Paul Kagami's army was accused of killing out mass killings of Hutu
:31:02. > :31:05.citizens. He has always rejected that. But the General, Chief of
:31:06. > :31:11.Staff of the Rwandan Armed Forces admits that what he calls "excesses"
:31:12. > :31:19.did occur. There was no deliberate intention against the Hutu, but
:31:20. > :31:24.talking about people dying in war and undoubtedly they did. These
:31:25. > :31:28.exercises of war are not just confined to Rwanda. Do you think
:31:29. > :31:33.Paul Kagami could fear what you have to say about the killings or
:31:34. > :31:39.excesses? You know what it is as you said nobody died, and yet a parent,
:31:40. > :31:42.a wife or child died. The circumstances under which people
:31:43. > :31:49.died should be explained. And if they explain them then they can have
:31:50. > :31:56.consideration. In Rwanda we don't have angels and devils, what we have
:31:57. > :32:01.is a situation inbetween. You are not an angel? Not at all. The South
:32:02. > :32:07.African Government this month expelled four Rwandan diplomats,
:32:08. > :32:10.linking them to the murder of Patrick Karagaya and the attempted
:32:11. > :32:13.murder of the General. We were invited here to Pretoria to
:32:14. > :32:17.interview the Rwandan High Commisioner, I have been inside and
:32:18. > :32:23.the man seems to have changed his mind. He refused to comment on any
:32:24. > :32:27.allegations of assassinations or attempted assassinations, and as to
:32:28. > :32:32.my questions of whether somebody in this diplomatic mission had been
:32:33. > :32:36.intimidating Rwandan exiles, he refused to confirm it or deny.
:32:37. > :32:40.Almost every member of the Rwandan opposition we met spoke of being
:32:41. > :32:50.threatened. One name came up again and again. That of one of the
:32:51. > :32:59.expelled diplomats, first councillor Didi. I have told them they would be
:33:00. > :33:05.eliminated. Didier doesn't hide his words when he's talking to Rwandans,
:33:06. > :33:13.he's straight forward. When he says eliminate or wipe or silence he
:33:14. > :33:20.means it. Other exiles have played this audio tapes in which they say
:33:21. > :33:26.everything members of Rwanda's Armed Forces have been heard plotting to
:33:27. > :33:29.kill Mr Karagaya. We can't verify the recordings but it is clear the
:33:30. > :33:36.South African Government believes Rwanda was involved. It is not just
:33:37. > :33:40.South Africa, over the years Paul Kagami's opponents have been
:33:41. > :33:45.targeted in countries as diverse as Mozambique, Uganda, Kenya, even
:33:46. > :33:51.Europe. Belgium, Sweden and indeed the United Kingdom. In 2011, three
:33:52. > :33:55.Rwandan exiles were warned by British police that their lives were
:33:56. > :33:58.in imminent danger from the Rwandan Government. We have spoken to one of
:33:59. > :34:02.those exiles for this investigation who says he still remains in regular
:34:03. > :34:09.contact with the Metropolitan Police. If Rwanda is trying to
:34:10. > :34:13.silence crickets abroad, then the situation inside the country is
:34:14. > :34:18.tougher still for those who oppose the Government. You know there have
:34:19. > :34:27.been disappearance, executions, and nobody is talking. The police, the
:34:28. > :34:35.intelligence is all over the place. That is terror. If nobody is talking
:34:36. > :34:38.and people are terrorised, that is not peace. You have a brewing
:34:39. > :34:44.conflict in Rwanda that is likely to develop into another conflict.
:34:45. > :34:49.Rwanda has accused South African of harbouring terrorists, amongst them
:34:50. > :34:53.the General and has asked for his extradition, that is unlikely to
:34:54. > :34:59.happen. Despite the denials of official involvement, the message
:35:00. > :35:08.from Kagami seems clear, oppose us and you are likely to end up dead.
:35:09. > :35:14.Neither a borrower or lender be, the advice to the son in Shakespeare's
:35:15. > :35:20.hamlet was once an -- Hamlet was once an item of faith in the UK. As
:35:21. > :35:25.nation we currently owe ?1. 43 trillion. And a report by the
:35:26. > :35:29.think-tank Demos, out tomorrow and seen in advance by this programme
:35:30. > :35:33.identifies a further hidden debt. It often seems in the lives of many
:35:34. > :35:38.British people the person who isn't a borrower is a mug! This is a huge
:35:39. > :35:45.change in MRILT public attitudes which has rather intrigued us.
:35:46. > :35:52.Sliding in and out of the red isn't unusual, but your bets of hanging on
:35:53. > :35:56.in the black seem slimmer than ever. Our personal debts stack up to ?1. 4
:35:57. > :36:01.trillion. More than twice what the Government spends in a year. And new
:36:02. > :36:06.research seen by Newsnight suggests even more is hidden, nearly ?5
:36:07. > :36:11.billion of arrears the official figures ignore. That is how Trevor
:36:12. > :36:16.fell behind, he had to take time off work when he was ill. Housing and
:36:17. > :36:21.utility bills he couldn't pay built up. So he went to different lenders
:36:22. > :36:28.to cope. It is very easy to borrow, and I mean they are quick enough to
:36:29. > :36:33.come to you and say, yeah, it is here if you want, ?1500, how much do
:36:34. > :36:39.you want. It is easy to pile it on to you. But you wait until they
:36:40. > :36:44.start asking for it back. It's like an addiction innit really. But it is
:36:45. > :36:50.not just those in vulnerable situations taking their chances. The
:36:51. > :36:55.research suggests 88% of us in Rwanda's in the red in some form,
:36:56. > :37:00.mortgages, credit cards or something more risky. A quarter of households
:37:01. > :37:03.rely on debt to get through the week. If you are under 30 you are
:37:04. > :37:07.three-times more likely to have debts that are racking up and up.
:37:08. > :37:14.The first year I would have eight hours contact. Around this table
:37:15. > :37:19.just four students will rack ?150,000 of debt between them before
:37:20. > :37:24.they earn a full-time penny. For all of you being in debt is perfectly
:37:25. > :37:28.normal? Yeah. But unlike any of our previous generations, that is their
:37:29. > :37:32.reality. A long time ago it was stigmatised now it is part of daily
:37:33. > :37:37.life, every level of debt. Do you think that's OK? I don't think it is
:37:38. > :37:41.something whether you can say is OK or not, because it just is, it is a
:37:42. > :37:45.fact of life now. It is daunting thinking about it like that and
:37:46. > :37:48.talking about it, but now that we are living here and we don't have to
:37:49. > :37:52.pay it back at the moment, I'm putting it at the back of my mind.
:37:53. > :37:55.If I can come to university I can take steps to get a well paid job to
:37:56. > :38:00.pay off that when I leave university and just try not to think about for
:38:01. > :38:02.the time being. There is not much sign of current or future
:38:03. > :38:07.generations ever being able to escape. In fact, the Government's
:38:08. > :38:12.official number crunchers predicted that we would be more and more in
:38:13. > :38:16.hock. Approaching again the dangerous way in which we were
:38:17. > :38:22.overextended when the financial system went pop.
:38:23. > :38:25.And from controversial new pay day lenders who give decisions in
:38:26. > :38:28.minutes, to doorstep debt collectors, it is big business.
:38:29. > :38:35.Frank has been around the streets and knocking on doors for 40 years,
:38:36. > :38:42.chasing up unpaid rent and bills. What kind of people get into debt?
:38:43. > :38:45.Everybody. Have you got a mortgage? It could be you, it doesn't matter
:38:46. > :38:49.whether it is credit cards or you can see from the figures, it is
:38:50. > :38:54.enormous isn't T you know, it includes mortgages and everything
:38:55. > :38:58.else. But yeah, debt is debt and it is still growing isn't it. We as a
:38:59. > :39:03.country borrow God knows how much every day just to survive. So you
:39:04. > :39:06.know. For us not to recognise it would be stupid wouldn't it. That
:39:07. > :39:12.means that people in your position can make more and more money doesn't
:39:13. > :39:17.it? I don't make a lot of money out of it. Let's face it, I do make a
:39:18. > :39:21.few shillings and I employ a few people, which is basically what it
:39:22. > :39:25.is all about, in this day of everything wanting everything. You
:39:26. > :39:29.know children getting all the latest Playstations and everything else,
:39:30. > :39:35.you know, it is not just people at the bottom of the food chain who are
:39:36. > :39:40.suffering. It is people as you move into the middle market et cetera.
:39:41. > :39:44.They are also caught up in it. Although the stigma of debt has more
:39:45. > :39:50.or less gone, the potential to cause harm has grown. Think-tank, Demos,
:39:51. > :39:54.who conducted this major new poll, believes lenders who do most damage
:39:55. > :39:58.should be penalised. When it does go wrong, when debt does spiral out of
:39:59. > :40:02.control, it can cause harm very quickly, that harm is what we are
:40:03. > :40:05.interested in, that harmful section of the debt market. That is where we
:40:06. > :40:08.think the Government and regulator should be tackling. A gentle
:40:09. > :40:14.long-term mortgage shouldn't do much harm, but being in the red can ruin
:40:15. > :40:19.lives. But with the recovery based on largely our own spending, debt
:40:20. > :40:25.may land us in trouble but we would be in trouble without it too. Now
:40:26. > :40:29.there is a minor moral panic taking off at the news of official advice
:40:30. > :40:32.that teenagers in England and Wales, including those under the age of
:40:33. > :40:36.consent, should be able to get hold of the morning-after-pill. The
:40:37. > :40:40.National Institute for Health and care excellence is recommending they
:40:41. > :40:43.be able to keep emergency contraception at home just in case
:40:44. > :40:47.they need it. The justification is an attempt to shed this country's
:40:48. > :40:54.reputation for having the highest rates of teenage pregnancy and
:40:55. > :40:58.abortion in Europe. But when won't the possession of
:40:59. > :41:02.morning-after-pills encourage promiscuity, and sexually
:41:03. > :41:06.transmitted diseases. Our guests are both here. Is this a good thing do
:41:07. > :41:11.you think? I think it could be a good thing, definitely. I mean, I
:41:12. > :41:16.just don't think that it is going to change people's minds that much in
:41:17. > :41:19.terms of people aren't thinking, if something's down the road instead of
:41:20. > :41:24.in their house it is going to make them more or less likely to have
:41:25. > :41:28.sex. What do you think? I don't think that they are emotionally
:41:29. > :41:33.mature enough to handle the aftereffects of having sex. I think
:41:34. > :41:39.that having the morning-after-pill so readily available will actually
:41:40. > :41:43.not actually make a difference to pregnancy rates and things like
:41:44. > :41:50.that, teenage pregnancy rates. Why not? I would say this because they
:41:51. > :41:55.are not mature enough, they don't know the aftereffects, the pill
:41:56. > :41:58.actually doesn't stop you from getting sexually transmitted
:41:59. > :42:02.diseases and things like that. That's another argument, we will
:42:03. > :42:05.come to that in a moment or two if we may. But on the pregnancy
:42:06. > :42:08.question you really don't think it will make much difference? I don't
:42:09. > :42:12.feel it will make any difference at all. It will be an excuse for young
:42:13. > :42:17.people to have sex and then think OK tomorrow I will have the
:42:18. > :42:22.morning-after-pill. What's wrong with that? I don't think that we
:42:23. > :42:26.should be encouraging that, the Government should not be encouraging
:42:27. > :42:31.young people to be having sex. It is not encouraging young people to have
:42:32. > :42:37.sex, it is encouraging them not to get pregnant? Isn't it? Well I
:42:38. > :42:41.wouldn't say so we already have things like free condoms and in
:42:42. > :42:45.schools and universities being given out F they didn't want to fall
:42:46. > :42:50.pregnant there are loads of means available of different types of
:42:51. > :42:53.contraception to help them. Specifically the thing that is given
:42:54. > :42:57.concern is the question of the morning-after-pill which, is
:42:58. > :43:05.supposedly emergecy contraception after the event. Although if you
:43:06. > :43:09.have a stockpile it is a predictable emergency. What do you think will be
:43:10. > :43:14.the effect of that? I mean you say it is a predictable emergency, most
:43:15. > :43:18.forms of contraception are 100%, I don't think any form is. The whole
:43:19. > :43:21.point of this is when that fails, because you have to already be
:43:22. > :43:25.taking some form of contraception to have access to this any way, it is
:43:26. > :43:27.for people who are already taking contraception but need something to
:43:28. > :43:34.fall back on sometimes because obviously nothing is ever 100%. The
:43:35. > :43:37.difference between a morning-after-pill and condom or
:43:38. > :43:41.something like, is that it doesn't protect you from sexually
:43:42. > :43:46.transmitted infections, which are on the rise slightly any way. Don't you
:43:47. > :43:51.worry about that? I mean people when they go to get this stockpile are
:43:52. > :43:56.going to have to be educated about all types of contraception any way,
:43:57. > :44:00.so I don't think people will become less aware of condoms or use them
:44:01. > :44:04.less because that is the thing they will still have access to or still
:44:05. > :44:09.be taught about. What is your anxiety about the rise, you
:44:10. > :44:13.mentioned it a moment a a rise in sexually transmitted infections? I
:44:14. > :44:19.think actually having this so readily available will actually
:44:20. > :44:23.increase STDs, although people are not educated enough about sexually
:44:24. > :44:27.transmitted diseases and things like that, so having this available is ju
:44:28. > :44:32.going to be adding to the fuel it is OK for me to have sex, society says
:44:33. > :44:38.it is acceptable, we're able now to get these things for free and it is
:44:39. > :44:43.going to be fooling it. You think there will be a rise in infections?
:44:44. > :44:48.Absolutely. As a direct consequence of this policy? I think people will
:44:49. > :44:51.be turning to condoms less and use the morning-after-pill a lot more.
:44:52. > :44:54.Do you worry about girls, particularly young girls, this is
:44:55. > :44:59.applying to girls under the age of consent being more vulnerable to
:45:00. > :45:05.pressure to have early sex now the young man says, well I haven't got a
:45:06. > :45:08.condom but you can get those morning-after-pills no trouble? I
:45:09. > :45:11.think generally people need to be educated more about relationships
:45:12. > :45:16.and consent. I think that's part of a wider issue and it is all about
:45:17. > :45:20.education. I mean obviously peer pressure has always existed and
:45:21. > :45:25.probably will always exist, but the more we educate people in be this
:45:26. > :45:30.stuff, the more likely that is it won't happen in the future. That's
:45:31. > :45:36.it for tonight, we leave you with a viral video of the day filmed by
:45:37. > :45:41.Karen Jones from Houston Texas, she recorded a fire in the building near
:45:42. > :45:46.her home and the construction worker trapped near the edge of it. Oh my
:45:47. > :45:57.God. Is that a construction guy? Yeah, he was inside there, do they
:45:58. > :46:08.fricking see him. Oh God, oh my God, oh no, oh no. Oh my God. Hell, he
:46:09. > :46:24.can jump from there, hell yes. Oh thank yes subjection thank you God.
:46:25. > :46:27.Oh my God! (Screaming) oh no, my God! Oh!