:00:00. > :00:10.It's nearly three decades since he died in dreadful circumstances and
:00:11. > :00:15.today the latest attempt to convict someone for his murder failed. Is it
:00:16. > :00:20.now possible that no-one will ever be convicted for the very public
:00:21. > :00:25.atrocity of the killing of PC Keith Blakelock. The Culture Secretary
:00:26. > :00:30.resigned, she said, so as not to get in the way of Government business,
:00:31. > :00:34.but is there a much bigger problem with the way the public sees the
:00:35. > :00:38.whole political class? Can I ask you a quick question, what's the first
:00:39. > :00:46.thing you think of when you hear the word "politician"? Crook! I do not
:00:47. > :00:50.fear for my safety, I know they will kill me. I'm a true Muslim, I
:00:51. > :00:57.believe my life and death is in the hands of Allah. That was four months
:00:58. > :01:09.ago, and now he's dead. Are the Kenyan anti-terrorist police out of
:01:10. > :01:13.control? So yet again the prosecuting authorities have failed
:01:14. > :01:17.to get anyone convicted for one of the most notorious murders of the
:01:18. > :01:20.last half century. Nearly 30 years after the event and despite the
:01:21. > :01:26.presence of numerous witness, no-one has been brought to justice for the
:01:27. > :01:30.murder of PC Keith Blakelock. The only convictions in the case were
:01:31. > :01:34.quashed years ago, so long after the night, when a middle-aged police
:01:35. > :01:39.constable, originally from Sunderland, was sent without riot
:01:40. > :01:47.training or stab vest to a disturbance in Tottenham, the case
:01:48. > :01:53.remains open. And they
:01:54. > :02:01.They were all cheering and shouting Gladiatorial. They misread the anger
:02:02. > :02:09.of the community, and when it erupted they were incapable of
:02:10. > :02:17.dealing with it. Keith Blakelock's injuries were just horrific. I was
:02:18. > :02:23.trying to do mouth-to-mouth and heart massage and keeping doing.
:02:24. > :02:28.There is nothing that the police can do now it is time to say it is over.
:02:29. > :02:32.28 years, three inquiries, 200 arrests and still no reliable
:02:33. > :02:38.conviction. It now looks certain there will be no justice for what
:02:39. > :02:41.happened that night in 1985. Back then Broadwater Farm Estate in
:02:42. > :02:44.Tottenham was ablaze. Years of tension between the police and the
:02:45. > :02:49.young black community had boiled over. The trigger, the death from a
:02:50. > :02:53.heart attack of Cynthia Jarrett, as her home was searched after her
:02:54. > :02:58.son's arrest. The police have always denied shoving her to the floor,
:02:59. > :03:01.many on the estate thought they were lying. It started with rocks, then
:03:02. > :03:06.bottles, then petrol bomb, thrown from tower blocks to the north, fire
:03:07. > :03:13.engines were called as cars were set ablaze. Then smoke was spotted,
:03:14. > :03:18.coming from the first floor supermarket in Tangmere Block,
:03:19. > :03:20.firemen were sent up, protected by PC Keith Blakelock and three other
:03:21. > :03:25.police officers. It was like somebody had scored a goal at the
:03:26. > :03:28.football match, from deathly silence to the huge roar you get in a
:03:29. > :03:33.stadium when somebody has scored a goal. We started being bombarded by
:03:34. > :03:38.bottles and bricks and debris, all of a sudden just showering around
:03:39. > :03:42.us. There was a load of people just all running around with crash
:03:43. > :03:47.helmets on, scaraves over their face -- scarves over their face, all
:03:48. > :03:51.holding various weapons and the like. I thought it has come to us
:03:52. > :03:57.now. This is all kicking off. As the team came out of this stairwell,
:03:58. > :04:02.they were petted from behind by bottles and missiles. They ran
:04:03. > :04:06.through the dark which 28 years ago would have been a trip of grass to
:04:07. > :04:11.the police vans on the main road. It must have been about this spot that
:04:12. > :04:14.Keith Blakelock fell, he was surrounded. The attack lasted in
:04:15. > :04:19.second, before his colleagues could turn back and he could be dragged
:04:20. > :04:24.away. I turned around and he was completely gone from sight, covered
:04:25. > :04:27.with people. I managed to get hold of Keith Blakelock's police
:04:28. > :04:30.overcalls and started to pull him out from the crowd. Another police
:04:31. > :04:34.officer had joined us and was doing the same thing with the other side
:04:35. > :04:37.of his collar. I kept working on Keith, doing heart missage and
:04:38. > :04:43.mouth-to-mouth with him all the way into the nearest hospital. Which
:04:44. > :04:49.sadly not long after we arrived we got told that he had not survived.
:04:50. > :04:53.The day after the murder a huge investigation got under way, within
:04:54. > :04:57.weeks arrests were made and suspects were charged. But in the rush to
:04:58. > :05:01.convict serious mistakes were made, mistakes which would damage the
:05:02. > :05:05.reputation of the Metropolitan Police. Convinced there could be a
:05:06. > :05:09.second night of rioting an army of cleaners was sent in to scrub the
:05:10. > :05:13.secrets. Vital forensic evidence was lost. Then police started rounding
:05:14. > :05:18.up dozens then hundreds of local men, and holding them sometimes
:05:19. > :05:23.without legal representation. I cannot blame the police for one
:05:24. > :05:28.second, for one moment for wanting to do the honourable thing and to
:05:29. > :05:33.find those who were kill a police officer in such circumstances. I
:05:34. > :05:39.absolutely understand that. And the police will be hard on those people
:05:40. > :05:43.is absolutely understandable. You cannot criminalise and stereotype a
:05:44. > :05:47.whole entire community for what a few people did. Even at its maximum
:05:48. > :05:52.the police said there was 30 people around Blakelock's body, yet some
:05:53. > :05:57.how they were able to get over 200 and odd warrants in the name of
:05:58. > :06:02.murder to come and arrest people. In 1987 all that pressure finally led
:06:03. > :06:10.to a conviction, Winston Silcott was sentenced to life for t murder, but
:06:11. > :06:17.released along with two others when there were suggestions forensic
:06:18. > :06:22.scientists were tampered with. Then Keith Blakelock's widow gave a prime
:06:23. > :06:31.time TV interview and there was a new push. One of those held was 16
:06:32. > :06:36.at the time of the killing. Nicholas Jacob had already spent a decade in
:06:37. > :06:41.prison due to the riots. The police said they had 30 wins who is said
:06:42. > :06:45.they saw him attack Keith Blakelock with a blade. One was a drug dealer
:06:46. > :06:48.and the other received thousands of pounds in living expenses for
:06:49. > :06:58.helping the police. In court they were all allowed to use suit dough
:06:59. > :07:02.-- pseudonyms and distorted voice to protect their identities. Nicholas
:07:03. > :07:07.Jacob's supporters were outside every day to protest his innocence.
:07:08. > :07:11.It was the use of anonymous witnesses on the stand that to some
:07:12. > :07:16.was the single most concerning element of the trial. The use of
:07:17. > :07:19.anonymity is an absolute disgrace. I can understand victims staying
:07:20. > :07:25.anonymous from attackers, but in this case it is crazy, crazy because
:07:26. > :07:29.two of the three witnesses gave evidence against Nicholas Jacob in
:07:30. > :07:32.1985. We know their names, we know where they live and their families.
:07:33. > :07:38.So why are these two character, who gave evidence back then, didn't who
:07:39. > :07:42.didn't get troubled, why are they being given anonymity now, it is to
:07:43. > :07:48.create an impression on the jury that there are dangerous people out
:07:49. > :07:53.there who want justice not to be done. With no new forensics linking
:07:54. > :08:00.Jacob to the murder, the only other evidence is a rap rap people in
:08:01. > :08:04.which he boasted to chop the officer. It took the jury only six
:08:05. > :08:08.hours to find him not guilty on all charges. The investigative
:08:09. > :08:10.journalist David Rose has closely followed the murder investigation
:08:11. > :08:13.from the start. There was really I think very little prospect that any
:08:14. > :08:18.jury, properly instructed, could have brought in a guilty verdict,
:08:19. > :08:24.given the quality, the poor quality of the evidence against Nicholas
:08:25. > :08:31.Jacob. S. That evidence was fatally contaminated with mistakes not
:08:32. > :08:36.committed in 2014 or 2013, or in 1999 after the appeal, they were
:08:37. > :08:40.committed in 1985 within hours, the chain started, within hours of the
:08:41. > :08:43.murder of PC Blakelock, it is a tragedy and one that could have been
:08:44. > :08:48.avoided. Now the time has simply come to draw align under it and say
:08:49. > :08:51.enough. The family of Keith Blakelock said this evening they
:08:52. > :08:55.were disappointed by the verdict. The Metropolitan Police praised the
:08:56. > :08:59.patience and determination of his widow Elizabeth and said work to
:09:00. > :09:07.bring those responsible for the murder to justice will not stop
:09:08. > :09:12.tonight. With us Tony Mysels, Nicholas
:09:13. > :09:15.Jacobs' solicitor, and the vice chair of the Metropolitan Police
:09:16. > :09:20.Federation. This was a terrible waste of public money wasn't it? I
:09:21. > :09:25.don't think that is the case at all. At the end of the day we are
:09:26. > :09:29.desperate to find out how one of our colleagues was killed. And I believe
:09:30. > :09:35.that we should keep doing that until we find out. Because ultimately a
:09:36. > :09:38.police officer lost his life on mainland Britain and we don't know
:09:39. > :09:43.who did that. We want to know who did that. You would presumably
:09:44. > :09:47.understand that urge to find the killers wouldn't you? Of course we
:09:48. > :09:52.understand, obviously I understand that the police would want to find
:09:53. > :09:56.the killers of PC Blakelock and justice be done for the family.
:09:57. > :10:00.Justice should be done? Of course it should be, but this prosecution was
:10:01. > :10:11.flawed from the outside. As you have heard from the report tonight from.
:10:12. > :10:14.The outset in 1985, the investigation was used and these
:10:15. > :10:19.days we would feel the investigation was ridiculous. If the police hadn't
:10:20. > :10:22.made such a mess of the initial investigation, we wouldn't still be
:10:23. > :10:34.30 years on having court cases about it, would we? It is very easy to sit
:10:35. > :10:38.here and say. That we were aware of things that weren't correct and as
:10:39. > :10:42.it panned out, ultimately we are still trying to seek entirely the
:10:43. > :10:46.case and what happened. So therefore we are going to carry on trying to
:10:47. > :10:52.get justice for what took place. How long could this go on? Well I think
:10:53. > :10:56.it will go on until we have got everything that we need in relation
:10:57. > :11:02.to sealing a conviction. I personally would never like to stop
:11:03. > :11:06.trying to find out who killed PC Blakelock. What do you think? The
:11:07. > :11:11.evidence at the outset as far as we were concerned was simply not there.
:11:12. > :11:14.What about the question of how much longer these police investigations,
:11:15. > :11:20.I mean there has been squad working on this for decades now hasn't
:11:21. > :11:23.there? Yes. That's correct, as I understand it even in the middle of
:11:24. > :11:29.this case back in January there was still 14 officers working full-time
:11:30. > :11:35.on the case. 14 police officers? At the time, back in January this year.
:11:36. > :11:38.The resources obviously they were devoting to the case were
:11:39. > :11:44.extraordinary. This is because he was a policeman? Exactly, yes. But
:11:45. > :11:50.this should be the same for anyone who is murdered, you know, in this
:11:51. > :11:53.way. Precisely. I might suggest also this is probably the only unsolved
:11:54. > :11:57.murder of a police officer that I'm aware of in this country. This is
:11:58. > :12:01.perhaps why the police have pursued it with vigour. This was not a case
:12:02. > :12:05.which should have reached a trial at the Old Bailey. David Rose said in
:12:06. > :12:09.that piece of tape there that it was time just to draw a line under the
:12:10. > :12:14.whole thing? I would agree with him in that respect. Would you? We
:12:15. > :12:16.obviously know the first investigation resulted in the
:12:17. > :12:21.conviction of three men who were innocent. They spent four years in
:12:22. > :12:25.prison before being obviously having the convictions quashed by the Court
:12:26. > :12:29.of Appeal. We know two officers, two senior officers in the investigation
:12:30. > :12:33.were prosecuted for perverting the course of justice and that
:12:34. > :12:37.undermined the credibility of any subsequent investigations. Even the
:12:38. > :12:42.interviews that proconducted in the early 1990s during the inquiry by
:12:43. > :12:47.the omission of the CPS in this investigation they actually said
:12:48. > :12:51.that those interviews had been unorthodox by today's standards. You
:12:52. > :12:57.think they should just go on indefinitely? Absolutely. He
:12:58. > :12:59.represent the rank and file officers of the Metropolitan Police, I'm not
:13:00. > :13:03.going to sit there and say let's draw a line under it and let's all
:13:04. > :13:08.go home. I want us to continue endlessly until we find the person
:13:09. > :13:12.who murdered PC Blakelock. Who will take that decision? Ultimately I
:13:13. > :13:16.will consider it will be ACPO officers within the Metropolitan
:13:17. > :13:18.Police, I don't know at this stage. Senior police officers will decide
:13:19. > :13:22.whether this continues or not? I would think so. The interesting
:13:23. > :13:27.point is when we were first given the case papers and summary it
:13:28. > :13:33.appeared the decision to charge Mr Jacobs was authorised by Aston
:13:34. > :13:38.Saunders who is now in charge of the CPS. Then we were told later on it
:13:39. > :13:42.was not her that authorised the charge. Thank you very much, thank
:13:43. > :13:48.you. Last night if you happened to be watching you might have seen the
:13:49. > :13:51.undying protestations of loyalty and support for the Culture Secretary,
:13:52. > :13:55.Maria Miller, from the leader of the House of Commons, Andrew Lansley.
:13:56. > :13:58.Well he could have saved himself the trouble, before breakfast this
:13:59. > :14:04.morning she had resigned. Lots of warm words for her on a cold spit at
:14:05. > :14:13.the media and the appointment of another loyalist, Sajid Javid, to
:14:14. > :14:18.replace her. It's 8.00 on Wednesday the ninth April, the headlines this
:14:19. > :14:22.morning, Maria Miller has resigned as Culture Secretary. Saying the row
:14:23. > :14:31.about her expenses has become a distraction from the vital work of
:14:32. > :14:38.Government. MPs' expenses, the scandal that has been running since
:14:39. > :14:43.2009. I hoped that I could stay but it has become clear to me over the
:14:44. > :14:47.last few days that this has become an enormous distraction and it is
:14:48. > :14:52.not right that I'm distracting from the incredible achievements of this
:14:53. > :14:57.Government. This afternoon Labour sought to press David Cameron on why
:14:58. > :15:00.he hadn't fired her. He said six days ago she had done the right
:15:01. > :15:04.thing and we should leave it at that, does he now recognise this was
:15:05. > :15:08.a terrible error of judgment? This is a good and honest parliament with
:15:09. > :15:13.good and hard working people in it. That is the assumption that I start
:15:14. > :15:19.for and I make no apology for that. He just doesn't get it. That is what
:15:20. > :15:24.he has shown today. This is just the latest chapter in the expenses'
:15:25. > :15:30.saga. Since it started five years ago we have had an election, changed
:15:31. > :15:33.Governments, changed the MPs' expenses rule, and sent some of the
:15:34. > :15:39.worst offenders to prison. But it still rumbles on. The expenses'
:15:40. > :15:43.scandal has been going on so long that whole careers have been built
:15:44. > :15:46.on the back of it. Sajid Javid, the new Secretary of State for Culture
:15:47. > :15:51.was obviously appointed today on the back of Miss McMillan's resignation,
:15:52. > :15:55.but he got his seat as an MP in 2010 after his predecessor resigned over
:15:56. > :16:18.a similar issue. Her housing allowances. Still, at least he knew
:16:19. > :16:26.what he was letting himself in for. (No sound) And how the, the expenses
:16:27. > :16:30.scandal seemed to clarify what everyone suspected, that politicians
:16:31. > :16:34.are dismal creatures. Can I ask you a quick question, what is the first
:16:35. > :16:40.thing you think of when you hear the word "politician"? Crook. Expenses.
:16:41. > :16:45.Liar. When you heard the word "politician" what is the first word
:16:46. > :16:49.that comes to mind? Insincere. That is why when a pollster asked whether
:16:50. > :16:52.Miss McMillan should resign, a majority said yes, there was very
:16:53. > :16:56.little sympathy for her. But in truth there is no sympathy for
:16:57. > :17:03.anyone in politics. Voters always want them to resign, they are quite
:17:04. > :17:07.liking a few other senior politicians to quit too. Is this
:17:08. > :17:11.new? They are unpopular but to be honest they always are, we have only
:17:12. > :17:14.about 18% of the British public who say they trust them to tell the
:17:15. > :17:21.truth. The worst we have ever seen was a few years ago in two OK 009
:17:22. > :17:25.when it was 13%, it has hardly bounced back. The highest ever
:17:26. > :17:29.figure has been 22% believing they tell the truth. Over the last 30
:17:30. > :17:34.years it hasn't changed much at all. If we go further back to the 1940s,
:17:35. > :17:38.even then when a coalition Government, like now, was actually
:17:39. > :17:41.at war against the Nazis, even then only 36% of the British public
:17:42. > :17:47.believed the politicians were acting in the interests of the country and
:17:48. > :17:52.not feathering their own nests etc. So is the kicking they get
:17:53. > :17:58.warranted? The politicians don't help themselves. I have got a copy
:17:59. > :18:05.of the members' dining room menu, bottle of white wine ?17, down the
:18:06. > :18:12.road in Covent Garden ?30 pounds. Three course meal ?15, the reason it
:18:13. > :18:17.is for a steak and chip starter, coffee and dessert, that is what
:18:18. > :18:22.they can claim for a late night sitting, ?15 we pay. It costs ?15 if
:18:23. > :18:28.they stay late they get ?15, so they get the dinner for free.
:18:29. > :18:33.It is subsidised to the tune to make it ?15 so they can claim for. That
:18:34. > :18:35.is not accidental. The MPs sit on the catering committee that
:18:36. > :18:40.organises the pricing and the subsidy. The subsidy to the Members
:18:41. > :18:46.of Parliament for food and booze is millions. The hatred is unhe
:18:47. > :18:50.hadifying, but it is probably not going anywhere, and it is fuelling
:18:51. > :18:53.the anti-establishment feeling that propels UKIP. One Tory MP told
:18:54. > :18:58.Newsnight today that Maria Miller might have cost them their seat at
:18:59. > :19:01.the next election. The timing of the scandal shortly before a European
:19:02. > :19:07.election really won't help Conservatives. The Prime Minister's
:19:08. > :19:14.loyalty to his cabinet ministers might prove expensive. Sorry about
:19:15. > :19:19.the sound on the little bit of it. Ministers come and go, but in an
:19:20. > :19:23.ever-changing world constant as Orion's Belt is the Newsnight
:19:24. > :19:27.political panel, first convened to comment on the resignation of Dalton
:19:28. > :19:31.in 1947. Danny Finklestein of the Times, who used to work for William
:19:32. > :19:36.Hague, Olly Grender who worked for Nick Clegg, both of them members of
:19:37. > :19:42.the House of Lords in Government, and John McTernan who advised Tony
:19:43. > :19:49.Blair when he was Prime Minister. Striking, it is five years since the
:19:50. > :19:53.expenses scandal. It has come back. In voters' minds it is only five
:19:54. > :20:00.minutes? This case was all about the old expenses rules, so it was an
:20:01. > :20:04.old, what she did was years ago. So has come back for that reason. This
:20:05. > :20:07.sort of thing will come back because underlying is a dislike of
:20:08. > :20:12.politicians. Your report was quite right. So the expenses was more an
:20:13. > :20:16.effect than cause. People didn't like politicians, thought very lowly
:20:17. > :20:19.of them, then the expenses row happened and it acted as a proof
:20:20. > :20:26.point of what they had already thought. We and if anyone who is in
:20:27. > :20:31.mainstream politics tells you that they don't want to, on a day like
:20:32. > :20:35.today, frankly despair, because we all know politicians and we all know
:20:36. > :20:41.politicians who work very hard and who are above board, but this just
:20:42. > :20:45.does badly for politics across the board this kind of stuff. It is a
:20:46. > :20:50.real shame as well, it is in part tied up with kind of the threat of
:20:51. > :20:54.Leveson, which was used by her special adviser, in part the poor
:20:55. > :20:59.apology, but if you read through the detail of the actual report, it is
:21:00. > :21:04.really hard to get to the absolutely the nub of this. The Commons brought
:21:05. > :21:08.this on themselves. Either they have an allowances scheme or expenses
:21:09. > :21:12.scheme. And they have got a scheme called allowances, where they claim
:21:13. > :21:18.an expense against it. In the end they get caught in the detail. It is
:21:19. > :21:22.a deeper issue. Very profound disenchantment? I should say first
:21:23. > :21:28.of all I don't share this public view about politics, I'm a son of
:21:29. > :21:31.refugees, I know from my parents' experience there are a lot of worse
:21:32. > :21:34.places in the world where politics is done in a much worse way than
:21:35. > :21:37.here. But it is very, very important to understand it even if you don't
:21:38. > :21:42.share it and it is very deep. Certainly it is an explanation of a
:21:43. > :21:48.lot of the UKIP factor and an explanation why lots of people and
:21:49. > :21:54.things in politics don't meet and reach people. Do you think there are
:21:55. > :21:58.all sorts of mechanisms being put in place and are now being changed in
:21:59. > :22:03.order to try to rehabilitate the reputation of the political class,
:22:04. > :22:07.are they going to work? And here is the huge irony, I think it is right,
:22:08. > :22:11.like Leveson, if you say you can't mark your own homework for the
:22:12. > :22:14.media, you have to say the same for politicians. I think that is right.
:22:15. > :22:23.Then when we have an independent body that says there should be a pay
:22:24. > :22:29.rise, that's not sufficiently Israel real Politk during a recession so it
:22:30. > :22:33.doesn't work. There should be way of regulating politicians in the
:22:34. > :22:36.Commons and in the Lords that is above board, there is an element of
:22:37. > :22:42.independence. How you bring that about I don't know, given that IPSA
:22:43. > :22:46.doesn't seem to be working either. There was mention a moment ago about
:22:47. > :22:49.UKIP, it is something he said David Cameron has taken a lot of damage
:22:50. > :22:53.from this. Maybe he has taken some damage from it. But actually all the
:22:54. > :22:57.mainstream parties have suffered from this. The people who are going
:22:58. > :23:04.to gain from it are UKIP, aren't they? I think in the short-term this
:23:05. > :23:13.really hurts the Tories. Because David Cameron saw how palatiry the
:23:14. > :23:16.apology was on -- paltry the apology was on Thursday, and it was the
:23:17. > :23:21.contempt for the Commons and the public that built this into a bigger
:23:22. > :23:26.issue. Cameron didn't get a grip on it. UKIP are using it who will
:23:27. > :23:31.mainly hurt the Tories. It is true this drags every politicians'
:23:32. > :23:35.reputation down. Although the reputation has never been high. In a
:23:36. > :23:39.sense for me the underlying thing is Government just isn't that good at
:23:40. > :23:42.doing things. So some of the disenchantment is actually not a
:23:43. > :23:47.comment on this or anything else, it is simply on thinking how poor
:23:48. > :23:53.things were in the private sector in the 70, they have -- 70s, Government
:23:54. > :23:59.haven't improved the way services have. The interesting thing for
:24:00. > :24:02.Conservatives, an anti-politician and anti-Government feeling is
:24:03. > :24:09.something the Conservatives can use. In the sense it allies with the
:24:10. > :24:12.Conservative scepticism, one of the things, I don't think that in
:24:13. > :24:15.top-line voting this will turn out to be that significant, but it is
:24:16. > :24:18.significant in terms of the underlying sort of position of the
:24:19. > :24:23.Conservative Party in the long run. If you think as I do that a sort of,
:24:24. > :24:28.there is a long-term anti-establishment feeling which has
:24:29. > :24:31.hit the banks, hit the police, you hit the newspaper industry, and is
:24:32. > :24:34.hitting politicians, you have got to think how do you deal with that, and
:24:35. > :24:43.Conservatives need to have a response to that. I think the UKIP
:24:44. > :24:46.thing, they wrote the book on claiming expenses on the gravy train
:24:47. > :24:52.on the way to Brussels, it is extraordinary they are managing to
:24:53. > :25:00.capitalise on this. That is crazy. And it is ironic, five years ago
:25:01. > :25:04.bumf in the polls, just after the parliamentary expenses thing? It is
:25:05. > :25:07.not about expenses. I don't think a response to Nigel Farage that says
:25:08. > :25:12.you have been in politics for 20 years and claimed lots of expenses,
:25:13. > :25:16.effective debating points though those are and will really undermine
:25:17. > :25:18.UKIP because it is a rebellion against something bigger. There is a
:25:19. > :25:23.social class element, it is about the winners of globalisation versus
:25:24. > :25:26.the losers. This disillusionment with politicians is bigger and
:25:27. > :25:32.deeper and goes to more institutions than politics. Olly, you are trying
:25:33. > :25:38.to get a word in edgeways. Thank you so much. If it is about depressing
:25:39. > :25:41.people's belief in politics and politicians, every political party
:25:42. > :25:45.needs to look at that. Things like open primaries are interesting and
:25:46. > :25:49.that came from the Tories. I still believe that fundamentally the
:25:50. > :25:54.voting system has to change because if a donkey can put on a colour Ross
:25:55. > :26:00.set and stay in a safe seat things like that will never change. On
:26:01. > :26:04.things like expense, total transparency, which I think MPs have
:26:05. > :26:09.been learning post all the changes. So that you know... A lot of them
:26:10. > :26:15.really resent it. You have the last word? Putting on the website people
:26:16. > :26:19.go there and it is open and accessible. Let the poor chap have a
:26:20. > :26:24.word? I think in the end people connect to politics when politicians
:26:25. > :26:27.articulate their big concerns with big visions. We have a bunch of
:26:28. > :26:31.quite small politicians who deal with very marginal differences
:26:32. > :26:35.between all the political parties. There is no inspiration and very
:26:36. > :26:38.little hope. In the end the big visions transcend. At the moment
:26:39. > :26:42.personality is popular, like Farrage, Johnson or Salmond. You
:26:43. > :26:45.need great causes, great political parties have great cause, at the
:26:46. > :26:51.moment you search for the great cause. Thank you very much. Now
:26:52. > :26:56.there is a massive security clamp-down going on in Kenya. Police
:26:57. > :27:02.there say they pulled in nearly 4,000 people in the past week. The
:27:03. > :27:10.arrest after the killing last week of a controversial Muslim preacher
:27:11. > :27:16.in the coastal town of Mombasa. His supporters aduce -- accuse the
:27:17. > :27:21.Government of being behind it, the ATPU or the anti-terrorist police
:27:22. > :27:29.unit, funded by Britain. In December last year, Newsnight
:27:30. > :27:36.travelled to Mombasa to meet a radical Islamist. He features on a
:27:37. > :27:43.UN sanctions list, accused of recruiting terrorists, he said it
:27:44. > :27:47.was a joke. We thought you could be the guide? Do you want a terrorist
:27:48. > :27:52.for a guide? Sometimes! It depends on the occasion. This guy, he's a
:27:53. > :27:59.nephew, he was one of the people executed by the ATPU police
:28:00. > :28:05.officers. The one sitting there. MrAm membered is more commonly --
:28:06. > :28:11.Ahmed is more commonly known by a nickname, meaning "graveyard in
:28:12. > :28:17.Swahili, he said the Kenyan police were going to assassinate him. Do
:28:18. > :28:22.you fear for your safety? I don't fear for my safety, I know they are
:28:23. > :28:26.going to kill me. I believe my life and death is in the hands of Allah.
:28:27. > :28:32.I will only die the day Allah has ordained for me to die, not a moment
:28:33. > :28:37.before or after. That moment finally came last week, he was leaving this
:28:38. > :28:41.courthouse on the outskirts of Mombasa with around eight
:28:42. > :28:47.companions. Eye witnesses told us they saw a car approaching from out
:28:48. > :28:54.of town, doing a U-turn outside a high-security prison attached to the
:28:55. > :29:02.court. TRANSLATION: That is when I heard gunfire. There were many
:29:03. > :29:05.shots. We pushed each other as we tried to get down so we wouldn't get
:29:06. > :29:13.hit. We triumphed into a ditch and laid down. And then I heard two
:29:14. > :29:19.final gun shots. And then everything went silent. It was several hours
:29:20. > :29:25.before the authorities removed his body from the roadside and took it
:29:26. > :29:30.to the nearest police station. During the time the survivors of the
:29:31. > :29:35.shooting said they were forced to remain lying in the ditch.
:29:36. > :29:39.TRANSLATION: We told them the people who shot at us had headed out of
:29:40. > :29:43.town in black car and they should follow them. They told us to lie
:29:44. > :29:47.down and not move. Several witnesses remarked that there was no armed
:29:48. > :29:52.security officers at the scene, despite its proximity to the
:29:53. > :29:56.high-security jail. He was the third high-profile terror suspect to be
:29:57. > :30:00.shot and killed in the past two years. Now in private Kenyan
:30:01. > :30:06.security officials have made no secret of their involvement in some
:30:07. > :30:10.of these killings. Last year I spoke to one Mombasa-based security
:30:11. > :30:15.officer who said the cleric's days were numbered. When I spoke to him
:30:16. > :30:18.earlier this week he said his unit had not been directly involved, but
:30:19. > :30:26.the hit was carried out by security officers from outside Mombasa. Mr
:30:27. > :30:34.Ahmed and the other two murdered clerics were all associated with
:30:35. > :30:39.this mosque in Mombasa's rundown Najenga neighbourhood. In February
:30:40. > :30:44.police raided the mosque, saying it was a recruiting centre for
:30:45. > :30:47.Jihadists. They arrested more than 100 worshippers, at least four
:30:48. > :30:51.people lost their lives, including one policeman. Security officials
:30:52. > :30:56.and human rights groups agree on one thing, the police are sending a
:30:57. > :31:03.deliberate signal to those they see as terrorists. I have spoken to even
:31:04. > :31:08.people within the security agencies who own up and even come out to say
:31:09. > :31:14.you ain't seen nothing yet. We are going to do more, we kill, we shoot
:31:15. > :31:18.them to kill. Not to detain them. That is what we are going to be
:31:19. > :31:24.doing. This they will say to me within the ATPU premises. ATPU
:31:25. > :31:28.stands for Antit-Terror Police Unit, it receives funding and training
:31:29. > :31:31.from Britain and the United States, in a report released last November,
:31:32. > :31:37.two human rights groups documented what they said were dozens of cases
:31:38. > :31:42.of disappearences, and extra judicial killings carried out by the
:31:43. > :31:46.ATPU in recent years. Mr Ahmed had made similar accusations. The
:31:47. > :31:53.British Government is helping the ATPU in Kenya kill Muslims by
:31:54. > :31:59.training them providek logistical support and giving them money. We
:32:00. > :32:04.are supposed to be the terrorists. It is not clear whether the ATPU was
:32:05. > :32:07.involved in the shooting of Mr Ahmed, but one ATPU officer late
:32:08. > :32:13.last year told me that the police had lost faith in the courts and
:32:14. > :32:18.preferred, instead, to eliminate in his words terror suspects.
:32:19. > :32:24.But many fear this tactic, far from reducing radicalisation will have
:32:25. > :32:33.the opposite affect. If Britain or any other western country fund this
:32:34. > :32:40.unit and this unit violates the rights of Kenyans, it also goes to
:32:41. > :32:43.the British tax-payers, the anger. Why is their money being used for
:32:44. > :32:51.these killings, so the problem goes back to where it comes from. We are
:32:52. > :32:56.coming for you, your days are numbered. There is no doubt that
:32:57. > :33:00.Kenya has a problem with terrorism and radicalisation. Friday prayers
:33:01. > :33:04.is just coming to an end at the Muslim mosque, the first Friday
:33:05. > :33:10.prayers since the assassination of Mr Ahmed, and the sermon hasn't been
:33:11. > :33:14.a peaceful one, the preachers says if they inflict violence on you, you
:33:15. > :33:20.have to be violent back, don't throw stones, cut their heads off.
:33:21. > :33:27.Inevitably stones were thrown, the police were expecting trouble and
:33:28. > :33:31.they were there in force. When they are being killed they are there and
:33:32. > :33:38.looking and not doing anything. We as a Muslim society, we know Islam
:33:39. > :33:41.is peace, we want peace. Given the level of anger on the streets the
:33:42. > :33:48.violence could have been a lot worse. In response to a recent
:33:49. > :33:51.series of explosions, shootings and terror alerts, the security forces
:33:52. > :33:55.have deployed extra officers across the country. Thousands of people,
:33:56. > :34:00.many of them ethnic Somalis have been detained, some held in
:34:01. > :34:03.Nairobi's main stadium, while they are screened and have their
:34:04. > :34:08.identities checked. The authorities are sending out a clear message,
:34:09. > :34:13.we're getting tough. But they deny shooting Mr Ahmed or any other extra
:34:14. > :34:16.judicial killing. As the man in charge of the security in this
:34:17. > :34:19.country I'm the authority to tell the true Government position, and
:34:20. > :34:24.what I have given you is the Government position. Anything else
:34:25. > :34:29.is an allegation, outright Lois or malice. Nobody believes it? It is
:34:30. > :34:34.not our business to make you leave it or not. Even the security forces
:34:35. > :34:37.don't believe it? I'm speaking on behalf of the security forces, that
:34:38. > :34:41.is the position and the truth. You choose to take the truth, or you
:34:42. > :34:47.take the rumours. The choice is yours. The Foreign Office told us in
:34:48. > :34:51.statement that it regularly monitors the ATPU and challenges them on
:34:52. > :34:55.allegations of human rights abuses. If there is credible evidence that
:34:56. > :35:02.British support is being misused, they said, then immediate action
:35:03. > :35:05.would be taken. The Times this morning disclosed that the Ministry
:35:06. > :35:11.of Defence had been so irritated by the content of a book about the army
:35:12. > :35:16.as involvement in Afghanistan that -- army's involvement in Afghanistan
:35:17. > :35:19.it has tried to quash it. It is not the first time it has tried to do
:35:20. > :35:23.that. But the unusual part of this equation is it was the MoD itself
:35:24. > :35:33.that had commissioned the book from a Territorial Army officer, Dr
:35:34. > :35:38.Martens mat, the -- Dr Martens -- doctor Mike Martins. It maintains it
:35:39. > :35:43.is always ready to learn. But the lesson of history is that the
:35:44. > :35:50.British military, frequently begin any bar expecting to fight the last
:35:51. > :35:58.one. We were told that British troops would be perfectly happy to
:35:59. > :36:02.leave Helmand Province without even drawing their weapons. It didn't end
:36:03. > :36:06.that way. Over 400 British servicemen and women have died in
:36:07. > :36:15.Afghanistan since 2001, the majority of them in Helmand. Last week
:36:16. > :36:20.Britain handed over control of the province to US forces, but they too
:36:21. > :36:25.will leave as American troops go home. But as Britain's presence in
:36:26. > :36:31.Afghanistan comes to a close, what lessons can be learned from the
:36:32. > :36:33.conflict? These are e-mails from the Ministry of Defence apparently
:36:34. > :36:39.trying to prevent the publication of a book by an army captain critquing
:36:40. > :36:43.the military's time in Afghanistan. The book is being published any way.
:36:44. > :36:50.But is there an unwillingness to learn lessons from past military
:36:51. > :36:54.conflicts. Armies are very good at learning the lessons of past wars,
:36:55. > :36:58.they tend to overlearn lessons and prepare for the wrong wars in the
:36:59. > :37:01.future. In the case of the British Army they are good at learning
:37:02. > :37:05.lessons from Afghanistan, and avoiding the trap of overlearning
:37:06. > :37:09.the lessons. When it comes to policy lessons their states can be not so
:37:10. > :37:13.good as learning them. These can be politically embarrassing. An inquiry
:37:14. > :37:20.into the other major war of the century, Iraq, is under way yet
:37:21. > :37:28.still to report back. It is looking at the decisions to go to war. The
:37:29. > :37:34.Chilcot Inquiry started taking evidence in 2009, but it has been
:37:35. > :37:37.held up with arguments over whether sensitive documents can be made
:37:38. > :37:41.public. The national interest is often interpreted as being the
:37:42. > :37:46.Government's interest, as avoiding embarrassment. There is no scope for
:37:47. > :37:51.an inquiry result in Chilcot to that effect. We need an inquiry that lays
:37:52. > :37:53.bear, in every possible way consistent with the national
:37:54. > :37:59.interest the way in which the decision to go to war against Saddam
:38:00. > :38:04.Hussein was taken. This year marks the centinary of the outbreak of
:38:05. > :38:10.World War I. But while we honour the dead and commemorate past --
:38:11. > :38:18.tragedies, are we doing enough to help avoid them in the future. I'm
:38:19. > :38:21.joined but by Dr Mike Martin, whose book has created this stir, with him
:38:22. > :38:26.Sunday Times journalist and five-time winner of the foreign
:38:27. > :38:30.correspondent of the year, Christina Lamb, who has returned this
:38:31. > :38:34.afternoon from Afghanistan. What about this question of learning
:38:35. > :38:37.lessons, is it important and is it happening? Of course it is important
:38:38. > :38:41.to learn so we don't make the same mistakes. I know there is this
:38:42. > :38:46.argument that you are always fighting the last war. But there is
:38:47. > :38:50.a lot of things that we could have learned from what we have done wrong
:38:51. > :38:53.in Afghanistan and I actually think that the US army seems to have done
:38:54. > :38:57.that better than the British Army. What done a better learning
:38:58. > :39:01.exercise? Yes, I do. Because at the beginning the British I think were
:39:02. > :39:06.rather arrogant thinking that we had been used to the British Army was
:39:07. > :39:10.used to doing peacekeeping and being in Northern Ireland and didn't, and
:39:11. > :39:15.were used to working in populations in way that the US army wasn't. What
:39:16. > :39:20.is your main conclusion about the lessons that ought to be learned
:39:21. > :39:25.from the Afghanistan experience? The main conclusion of the book is that
:39:26. > :39:28.there has been massive intelligence failure in Helmand, and we have
:39:29. > :39:35.completely failed to understand the type of conflict that we have been
:39:36. > :39:39.fighting. Very briefly it is a Civil War between different tribes and
:39:40. > :39:47.families and it is fought over land and water and honour and poppy. By
:39:48. > :39:50.that I mean the UK media, the MoD and many military officers and
:39:51. > :39:53.development experts understand the war as an ideolgical conflict
:39:54. > :39:58.between the Taliban and the Government. And it is not? It is
:39:59. > :40:02.not, no. It is a very, very localised conflict driven by
:40:03. > :40:09.pragmatic matters, fights that have gone on for the last 30 years over
:40:10. > :40:13.land or... OK, you're talking about a profound misapprehension of what
:40:14. > :40:17.the situation was and what these wars were. Incidentally do you
:40:18. > :40:20.agree? I think it is a mixture of those things. I do agree that at the
:40:21. > :40:25.beginning there was no appreciation of that, but there is also a group
:40:26. > :40:29.called the Taliban, based in Pakistan that has an ideolgical
:40:30. > :40:33.point to prove. Has the MoD learned that lesson? I think they have
:40:34. > :40:38.recognised it, I think they have identified it, I don't think they
:40:39. > :40:46.have learned it. What do you mean, how can you identify it and not take
:40:47. > :40:54.any could go sans -- could go this sans of it? The broad idea
:40:55. > :40:57.surrounding the war with the legitimate Afghanistan Government
:40:58. > :41:04.and we were fighting the Taliban and we attribute bad things to the
:41:05. > :41:11.Taliban. I think that... It is possible isn't it that you could be
:41:12. > :41:18.learning lessons without learning them publicly? How much do you think
:41:19. > :41:22.that this sort of disclosure of the kind that made the MoD so
:41:23. > :41:26.apprehensive, shall we say, does it really need to be published. Surely
:41:27. > :41:31.these are internal lessons that need to be learned by the army? There is
:41:32. > :41:34.several different things here, the intelligence failure, absolutely.
:41:35. > :41:37.When I was going there as a journalist I was going into villages
:41:38. > :41:43.with soldiers and they clearly didn't have a clue what they were
:41:44. > :41:47.going to find there. And so maybe that sort of thing is more internal.
:41:48. > :41:51.But some of the other issues, for example the equipment, if those
:41:52. > :41:55.things hadn't become public at the time I don't think it would have
:41:56. > :41:59.changed. It was through people exposing that, our soldiers out
:42:00. > :42:02.there were travelling in snatch vehicles that were being blown up
:42:03. > :42:06.all the time and gave no protection, or there weren't enough helicopters.
:42:07. > :42:10.Through all of that becoming public that things changed. I don't think
:42:11. > :42:16.they would have been otherwise. And I actually find it very infuriating
:42:17. > :42:20.the amount of times that I was lied to by senior officers out there
:42:21. > :42:27.because they didn't want people to know things and subsequently said.
:42:28. > :42:31.What do you mean? Things like that about the equipment, the reasons
:42:32. > :42:35.people died. I think it does also apply to intelligence, it is about
:42:36. > :42:39.what type of army do we want as a nation? At the moment the army is
:42:40. > :42:43.going through a review process, they are rebalancing towards the reserves
:42:44. > :42:47.and the army 2020 programme out, do we want an army able to fight these
:42:48. > :42:51.types of wars or an army able to fight the type of war perhaps that
:42:52. > :42:55.is discussed over the Crimea incident recently? Thank you very
:42:56. > :43:04.much. Before we go tonight we are going to hear a bit of poetry, it
:43:05. > :43:20.comes from an Anthology out tomorrow called Peoples To Make Grown Men
:43:21. > :43:24.Cry. It is from Clive James who is suffering illness. He spoke from his
:43:25. > :43:30.home. The reason why it appeals to me so much is personal. It is about
:43:31. > :43:33.a man speaking to a woman in a canoe, she's about, they are about
:43:34. > :43:37.to sail away up the river and he makes it clear that he might not be
:43:38. > :43:41.coming back from the war and next time she might have to make the trip
:43:42. > :43:45.alone. And when I first read it I couldn't help thinking my mother and
:43:46. > :43:50.father, which means I suppose thinking of myself. It is a very
:43:51. > :43:55.personal poem to me. What was it about your mother and father that it
:43:56. > :44:00.made you think of? My father sailed off to the war and didn't come back.
:44:01. > :44:04.My mother was left alone the way the woman is going to be in the poem.
:44:05. > :44:10.She will have to travel alone next time she goes on the canoe trip.
:44:11. > :44:15.That rang a bell with me I'm afraid. One of the key things in Keith
:44:16. > :44:19.Douglas's work, and one of the first lines of the poem is a premonition
:44:20. > :44:24.of death, and death, does that have personal resonance for you? Yes,
:44:25. > :44:28.with a proviso, is there was a war on for Douglas, the chances are he
:44:29. > :44:34.was going to get killed any way. For my generation there was no war. And
:44:35. > :44:40.by some miracle of chance of luck we have lived out our lives. I'm sick
:44:41. > :44:43.now, but it is at the end of a long life in which I have been allowed to
:44:44. > :44:48.do pretty much as I wanted. So I will never forget my privilege as a
:44:49. > :44:54.writer, as a man of letters, as a poet, as a reader, it is a lucky,
:44:55. > :45:01.lucky thing to have. So the theme of my late poetry is luck, not death.
:45:02. > :45:13.But the theme of his poetry was death because it was all around him.
:45:14. > :45:17.It might happen to him and it did. "Well I'm thinking this may be my
:45:18. > :45:21.last summer, but can't lose even a part of pleasure in the old
:45:22. > :45:29.fashioned art of idleness, I can't stand aghast at whatever doom hovers
:45:30. > :45:33.in the background, while grass and buildings and the river, who know
:45:34. > :45:40.they are allowed to last forever exchange between them the whole
:45:41. > :45:47.subdued sound of this hot time. What sudden fearful fate can deter my
:45:48. > :45:53.shade wandering next year from a return. Whistle and I will hear and
:45:54. > :45:59.come again another evening when this boat travels with you alone towards,
:46:00. > :46:06.as you lie looking up for thunder again. This cool touch does not be
:46:07. > :46:17.token rain, it is my spirit that kisses your